View Full Version : Legalities of Using a SBR as a Pistol.
domestique
12-07-15, 16:53
What are the legal concerns of using a SBR as a Pistol?
I.e. I have a trust member that has a CZ EVO Scorpion and wants to SBR It. However he still would like the ability to convert it back to a pistol when traveling out of state (to avoid paperwork wait times).
We know that putting a 16" AR upper on a SBR now makes it a non-NFA firearm, but I have never seen anyone go back and forth from a pistol to SBR to pistol.
-I was always under the impression that a rifle can never become a pistol once it's registered as a rifle.
-I realize he could just do a Shockwave/Sig brace and folder, but he wants the factory SBR kit, and the lawful ability to shoulder it.
-Obviously turning it back into a pistol would leave little evidence (other than engraving) for a local LEO to see. The concern would be if the firearm was used in a SD shooting and than found out to be a registered SBR while out of state.
We know if it starts life as a pistol, it can go from pistol to rifle and back. My concern was always that when you make it an SBR, you were making a new firearm that starts life as a rifle...so it can't ever be a pistol again.
However, I've somebody email ATF within the last month and was told it was fine to also go pistol->SBR->pistol.
ETA: found the thread...here you go (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=51&t=454312). Now, Gary doesn't quote any statute, but he does say it's OK. Post was last week, but email was back in Feb.
FWIW...I asked CAA/Roni about it sometime in the last year or so, and they said it was always a rifle, even when configured as a pistol, and 5320.20 was required. Dunno.
I would think it becomes a "weapon made from a rifle" as opposed to an actual handgun...but have nothing to back that up.
I think that when you SBR a receiver you've made it a SBR and you can't conveniently call it a pistol just because you take the stock etc off. They've got the paperwork in your specific and individual case that defines that receiver as a rifle.
Probably not very useful to spout this out without a proper link. I'm probably wrong, but I've never seen indisputable NFA proof otherwise, which is what I would personally need to do what they're wanting to do.
edit: can you carry an SBR'd naked receiver ALONE across state lines as suggested without form-age? I didn't think you could.
edit: can you carry an SBR'd naked receiver ALONE across state lines as suggested without form-age? I didn't think you could.
Yes. Without the short barrel, it's not a short barreled rifle. Whether it's stripped, built, or has a 16+" upper on it, you can travel, hunt and sell it as you would a GCA firearm.
So, when configured as a pistol, it's not an SBR. But it could still be a weapon made from a rifle...which is not the same as a pistol.
For me, I've ditched the whole AR pistol idea. I converted all mine to SBRs. Something like a Glock kit would be a whole different story, though.
I've wondered this as well without getting the hard answers the scenario I was thinking was:
a SBR without a stock, but equipped with a Sig Armbrace. When in the state its registered as a SBR it is legal to shoulder. But when taken across state lines is it still a SBR? Or since it isn't equipped with a stock can it be a pistol when crossing state lines as long as it isn't shouldered.
Application to Transport Interstate or to Temporarily
Export Certain National Firearms Act (NFA) Firearms
The "Firearm" is the receiver. The Firearm is NFA registered. The tax was paid to make the Firearm into an SBR. You can temporarily convert the Firearm into a pistol, but, the application is still to transport the NFA registered Firearm ( Receiver ).
That's my take on it using ATF definitions and reading the title of the forms.
So where it asks you barrel length and such if you took the pistol you would still have to fill out form.
I don;t see how you can get around taking a NFA registered receiver Interstate.
Application to Transport Interstate or to Temporarily
Export Certain National Firearms Act (NFA) Firearms
The "Firearm" is the receiver. The Firearm is NFA registered. The tax was paid to make the Firearm into an SBR. You can temporarily convert the Firearm into a pistol, but, the application is still to transport the NFA registered Firearm ( Receiver ).
That's my take on it using ATF definitions and reading the title of the forms.
So where it asks you barrel length and such if you took the pistol you would still have to fill out form.
I don;t see how you can get around taking a NFA registered receiver Interstate.
Because without the barrel, it doesn't meet the definition of an NFA item.
Here's an example of one of their letters:
http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx151/thegreghorton/Mobile%20Uploads/FE3D3E43-3B12-48FC-8263-4076D89DC143_zpsrxhwl0db.jpg
And here's a series of Q&A from the ATF's SBR FAQ, before they updated the website to the current version:
Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered SBR or SBS, is the receiver still subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations?
If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations. ATF recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law.
Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA? If so, is this considered a permanent change?
Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS.
Q: If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of ATF Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms?
If the registrant retains control over the parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm is still be subject to all requirements of the NFA. ATF recommends contacting law enforcement officials in the destination state to ensure compliance with state and local law.
Note that "retains control" is not the same thing as "retains ownership". As long as it's not with you, you're fine.
And a couple more (note the definition of an SBR, coincidently, includes the need for a short barrel):
Q: May I transfer the receiver of a short-barrel rifle or shotgun to an FFL or to an individual as I would any GCA firearm?
Yes. A weapon that does not meet the definition of a NFA firearm is not subject to the NFA and a possessor or transferor needn't comply with NFA requirements. The firearm is considered a GCA firearm and may be transferred under the provisions of that law.
Q: Who is responsible for notifying the NFA Branch when I transfer the GCA firearm to a FFL or another individual?
There is no requirement that the transferor or transferee of a GCA firearm notify the NFA branch of a transfer or that either party determine whether the firearm was previously registered under the NFA. There is no also no requirement for the registrant or possessor of a NFA firearm to notify ATF of the removal of features that caused the firearm to be subject to the NFA; however, ATF recommends the owner notify the NFA Branch in writing if a firearm is permanently removed from the NFA.
Q: What is the registered part of a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) or Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)?
While a receiver alone may be classified as a firearm under the Gun Control Act (GCA), SBRs and SBSs are classified in totality under the National Firearms Act (NFA). A firearm that meets the definition of a SBR consists of a rifle that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. A SBS consists of a shotgun that has a barrel less than 18 inches in length. The serialized receiver is recorded for registration in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR).
Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS?
A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA firearm pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer.
To me, and this is just me, like most NFA stuff, their wording is contradictory.
Note that "retains control" is not the same thing as "retains ownership". As long as it's not with you, you're fine.
Does ATF define that? Or is that your definition?
A trustee does not "own" the upper. "Hey Mr. ATF, as trustee if I take the upper off an SBR, am I ok to possess and transport the receiver across State lines? ... btw, I control the Trust which owns the SBR"
A: If the possessor( you as trustee ) retains control over (administers the Trust to ensure the SBR is available for the Beneficiary ) the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations.
Yes, I know the form 20 will state the Trust name but the papers won't be who the authorities are talking to. the Trustee will be possessor transporting the firearm on behalf of the Trust. The Trustee will also have to retain control over the whole shooting match even if all parts are not physically present.
Does ATF define that? Or is that your definition?
That "definition" was taken from the snippet of the letter above.
They also use that general idea when discussing leaving items stored and locked in another state or at a friend/neighbor/relative's house. They never ask you to sell anything, just don't have it with you (for example, moving to a state that doesn't allow NFA, or moving before 5320.20 is approved).
.... and again, the ATF has been known to write contradictory 'letters'. As long as the OP can fully educate the local Sheriff in the State where he gets questioned, I suppose go for it. If that Sheriff calls ATF and gets a different 'letter writer' things could get uncomfortable.
I would want my own personal letter addressed to me from the ATF on hand. Especially in light of current events.
And if you don't have the pieces with you, the question shouldn't even come up.
If you never a see a LEO the question shouldn't come up. The point is, what if the question does come up by any means. I wouldn't want my defense to be... "Well I read part of letter that was supposedly written by ATF to someone else on the Internet"
If it's ok, how easy would it be to simply get your own letter. The problem is, people don't like to get ATF letters because it's a crap shoot. Then you letter on file that says no you can't do it. It's not a matter of getting caught. It's a matter of easily and accurately showing someone that may not know anything about the nuanced rules that you are in the right.
Again, this is just my take on it. Better safe than sorry because AFT seems to have a fluid set of right and wrong regarding letters and FAQs and they will always take second chair to actual wording and definitions in the laws.
Most everything he posted is DIRECTLY found on the BATF website. Thousands of people see it and read it. People overthink the NFA stuff way too much.
If you never a see a LEO the question shouldn't come up. The point is, what if the question does come up by any means. I wouldn't want my defense to be... "Well I read part of letter that was supposedly written by ATF to someone else on the Internet"
If it's ok, how easy would it be to simply get your own letter. The problem is, people don't like to get ATF letters because it's a crap shoot. Then you letter on file that says no you can't do it. It's not a matter of getting caught. It's a matter of easily and accurately showing someone that may not know anything about the nuanced rules that you are in the right.
Again, this is just my take on it. Better safe than sorry because AFT seems to have a fluid set of right and wrong regarding letters and FAQs and they will always take second chair to actual wording and definitions in the laws.
Over thinking it started with simply not building a simple pistol lower for the purpose in the first place.
4 of those questions deal with transfer not transport. I don't think any use the word pistol.
All I'm saying is that the ATF, for as much as they write, do not make things perfectly clear. Otherwise people would not forever be asking the questions. I simply would not want to be on the answering questions side of a situation where a LEO of any sort has over thought the situation. That is the scenario presented by the OP.
Why not spend $150 and build a pistol lower and be done with it all? Then no one has to think at all.
4 of those questions deal with transfer not transport. I don't think any use the word pistol.
They deal with the classification of the weapon based on configuration. That's what matters whether you're taking about transfer or transportation. To quote one of my favorite t-shirts: "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you". So, I'm not going to try anymore.
But, yes, a separate pistol-configured lower is the easiest route.
dm_graham308
12-09-15, 11:19
Sounds to me that the only clear answer is to do the travel paperwork before you go out of town with it and just have a pistol lower to use if you don't want to do the paperwork. As an LEO, I know how much time some officers take on simple calls/traffic stops; I can't imagine the inconvenience that it would cause if you got one of "those" officers trying to figure out and answer NFA questions on the side of the road. Our department works closely with all of the federal agencies so a quick phone call would clear things up(hopefully). But smaller departments without that option would probably rather just keep you and your NFA stuff until they figured it out. In my experience, trying to operate outside of the black and white, is more trouble than it is worth.
They deal with the classification of the weapon based on configuration. That's what matters whether you're taking about transfer or transportation. To quote one of my favorite t-shirts: "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you". So, I'm not going to try anymore.
You don't need to understand it for me. I totally get it. I know exactly what you are saying. Again my point is the that the the scenario listed is something along the lines of..
A member of Trust that has a pistol/NFA SBR and has been detained by LEO, AND doesn't really know what the rules are AND won't have anyone to explain it to them much less present an understanding. It reads like Murphy's Law and Darwin are going to have lunch, no matter how legally permissible and easily understood it might be.
I have a trust member that has a CZ EVO Scorpion and wants to SBR It. with the intention of carrying pistol across State lines on a somewhat regular basis where paperwork would be a PITA.
Again... I get it... I wouldn't do it.
domestique
12-09-15, 20:24
Sounds to me that the only clear answer is to do the travel paperwork before you go out of town with it and just have a pistol lower to use if you don't want to do the paperwork. As an LEO, I know how much time some officers take on simple calls/traffic stops; I can't imagine the inconvenience that it would cause if you got one of "those" officers trying to figure out and answer NFA questions on the side of the road. Our department works closely with all of the federal agencies so a quick phone call would clear things up(hopefully). But smaller departments without that option would probably rather just keep you and your NFA stuff until they figured it out. In my experience, trying to operate outside of the black and white, is more trouble than it is worth.
I agree, and is why I have AR pistol lowers to go with my AR SBRs.... however the firearm in question is the CZ Scorpion.
I've missed using my 300blk SBR on a hog hunt out of state because the ATF lost my paperwork for taking it out of state. This prompted me to embrace the AR pistol option. Unfortunately with the Scorpion the trustee in my trust can't just buy a $50.00 blank lower.
dm_graham308
12-09-15, 21:28
I agree, and is why I have AR pistol lowers to go with my AR SBRs.... however the firearm in question is the CZ Scorpion.
I've missed using my 300blk SBR on a hog hunt out of state because the ATF lost my paperwork for taking it out of state. This prompted me to embrace the AR pistol option. Unfortunately with the Scorpion the trustee in my trust can't just buy a $50.00 blank lower.
My bad. That makes sense. I missed the CZ part in the original post.
I hate to necro this but instead of starting a new thread let me post a question.
Would it be legal to put a pistol brace/stabilizer brace on a factory SBR so you can travel across state lines without the permission slip?
My gut says no as technically this is a 'Rifle' and you cannot convert a rifle to a pistol. Does anyone have another opinion?
I hate to necro this but instead of starting a new thread let me post a question.
Would it be legal to put a pistol brace/stabilizer brace on a factory SBR so you can travel across state lines without the permission slip?
My gut says no as technically this is a 'Rifle' and you cannot convert a rifle to a pistol. Does anyone have another opinion?
I was asking the same question in post 5. Still no idea.
You can change a pistol into a rifle and back again but according to the ATF you can't go rifle pistol rifle, go figure. If you temporarily take your NFA item out of a controlled configuration (ie, drop a 16" upper on it) then you don't have an SBR, you just have an R. No one would know the diff.
domestique
05-18-17, 15:20
I hate to necro this but instead of starting a new thread let me post a question.
Would it be legal to put a pistol brace/stabilizer brace on a factory SBR so you can travel across state lines without the permission slip?
My gut says no as technically this is a 'Rifle' and you cannot convert a rifle to a pistol. Does anyone have another opinion?
As the OP, I still haven't found a black and white answer. The general consensus is that it will always be a SBR or SBS, but you are allowed to physically go back and forth between a pistol and SBR/SBS (i.e a Glock in a chasis, or putting a pistol grip on a 14" SBS for a backpacking trip).
Big boy rules apply in that local law enforcement would have no clue that your pistol is actually a SBR unless they saw the engraving of your trust, and had a lawful reason to run the serial number through the ATF. At that point you are probably already in other legal problems and a gun charge is additional fluff (IMHO).
The biggest argument against this theory is that putting a 16" upper on a AR SBR lower now makes it a regular rifle again.... so in that breathe you could assume that removing a stock now makes it a pistol again (assuming you remove any VFG and other stipulations that would inadvertently make it an AOW.
Just like the ATF.... clear as mud.
I asked that question on another forum a few years ago. The consensus seemed to be that as long as it didn't start out life as a rifle you could reconfigure it back to a non NFA pistol setup.
But none of that was legal advice.
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Sparky5019
05-20-17, 17:59
Most everything he posted is DIRECTLY found on the BATF website. Thousands of people see it and read it. People overthink the NFA stuff way too much.
This.
I have several guys that are in this predicament. They maintain a pistol lower for the SB upper expressly for this purpose. No cranking tubes off. No ambiguity. No issues. Better to have a legit pistol that appears so than a NFA marked lower that has a pistol tube on it. Legal or not by the letter of the law; it'll save a lot of time and headaches on the road...as long as the NFA lower stays at home in the safe.
As the OP, I still haven't found a black and white answer.
Try this link... https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2011-4-pistols-configured-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download.
Be sure to read it as 'Here's how to tell if you have an NFA type setup and what that setup is.
"A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is
made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that
they:" Ok, so that's saying here's how you tell if you have an NFA situation.
a) serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than
16 inches in length That's pretty much your factory SBR.
or (b) convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm That's pretty much if you took your 16" rifle and make an 11.5"
. A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts within a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or
re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length ).
Ok, so that's NOT your factory SBR. That's if you just build a pistol or a 16"+ rifle... it's simply NOT NFA. It's just like all your other firearms.
A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a
part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in
length , and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g. , as a pistol).
Ok, so this is your basic plug a Glock frame into a 16"+ Carbine setup. then unplug it and put your Glock back together. You started with a Pistol and Upper. Then made a NON-NFA Rifle, then converted it back to a Pistol. Very simple. NOT NFA.
A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle
So this paragraph is the counter to the one above... You DO HAVE an NFA Firearm if you first have a Rifle ( your factory rifle ) and then stick a handgun on it. Now you can't stick a handgun on an AR but you can wave your magic wand over it, make the stock disappear, and call it a Pistol / Handgun. Now I know three are other ways to look at it. The Factory "rifle" actually started out as an "Other". A pistol is a pistol and an SBR is an SBR and the two shall never meet. There are three states of being.. Firearm, Rifle, Pistol that overrides the wording above "A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4)," that definition is not simply a Firearm... it's a specific set of regulated firearms...
Again, I would not chance it for $150 to simply build a pistol lower.
Regardless of all the other findings and the NFA 'states of being for things that go bang'.... I simple would not do it. I get all the contrary arguments and nature of the specifics. Read the bold below... Must be registered... No problem, your factory SBR is already registered..... Subject to all NFA rules ... should be no problem because NFA does not regulate Pistol to the nature of this thread question... sure you have to remove the vert. grip and such but technically hey it's registered and NFA doesn't regulate this pistol I want to carry over state lines.... I'm good to go. EXCEPT.. that is a total contradiction to the paragraph intent above that deals with making a pistol from a registered rifle. Even if there were fines, jail time, confiscation, potential,,, I would still spend the $150 because I simply would never want to have that conversation with anyone that has the authority at their digression to detain me or my belongings in my daily life.
Held further,
a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun
or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less
than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or
produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all
requirements of the NFA.
To the extent this ruling may be inconsistent with any prior letter rulings, they are hereby superseded.
Date approved:
July 25, 2011
Kenneth E. Melson
Acting Director
Now it's 6 years later and YMMV but be honest with yourself.... Don't you really want a new pistol lower? Hey it's Memorial Day, Father's Day, hell it's always New Gun Day... "Get you some".
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