View Full Version : NSW goes Glock
Looks like the Glock 19 will be the new 9mm pistol of Naval Special Warfare.
The SIG's are still in service but are to be phased out in favor of the Glock Model 19.
I am not sure what generation, but based on those G19 already in service with SOF I'd say the Gen 3 is likely.
I will follow up when I get more issued than holsters et al.
snowdog650
12-09-15, 16:04
Sweet. Now I can instantly command a 50% premium of my Gen 3 19 on gunbroker. :rolleyes:
Sweet. Now I can instantly command a 50% premium of my Gen 3 19 on gunbroker. :rolleyes:
Hell, I'll sell you the UPGRADED Generation 4 model - so new, even NSW doesn't have it!! :rolleyes:
I wonder if they'll go for the factory threaded barrels to boot?
WickedWillis
12-09-15, 16:35
Looks like the Glock 19 will be the new 9mm pistol of Naval Special Warfare.
The SIG's are still in service but are to be phased out in favor of the Glock Model 19.
I am not sure what generation, but based on those G19 already in service with SOF I'd say the Gen 3 is likely.
I will follow up when I get more issued than holsters et al.
Awesome. I had found no information on this.
This comes as no surprise. A Glock 19 is a solid choice for a defensive pistol.
Cincinnatus
12-09-15, 16:44
Looks like the Glock 19 will be the new 9mm pistol of Naval Special Warfare.
The SIG's are still in service but are to be phased out in favor of the Glock Model 19.
I am not sure what generation, but based on those G19 already in service with SOF I'd say the Gen 3 is likely.
I will follow up when I get more issued than holsters et al.
Thank you for the information, sir.
I assume that a maritime version using the maritime cups in the striker assembly will be standard?
Is there any difference in the finish used on the slide or internals?
This comes as no surprise. A Glock 19 is a solid choice for a defensive pistol.
offensive
offensive
The best defense is a good offense.
Thank you for the information, sir.
I assume that a maritime version using the maritime cups in the striker assembly will be standard?
Is there any difference in the finish used on the slide or internals?
There have been rumblings about NSW going to the G19 for a few months now and in all reality it has been in service with JSOC for at least a decade. Many thought that the G19 as the new pistol- dubbed an "operators pistol" vs. "service pistol," was simply rumors. With the SIG Contract coming to an end and the immense popularity of the 19; not to mention lower price point of the Glock the timing makes sense.
WTBS I don't have all the specs but I believe a stock G19 would meet most of the criteria right out of the box.
More to follow when I actually have an issued 19 in hand.
Defaultmp3
12-09-15, 18:05
Dumb question, so don't answer if you don't feel like it, but what role does the HK45C serve, compared to what the Glock 19/P226 was suppose to do?
WatchTheWorldBern
12-09-15, 18:09
Out of curiosity, any word on why the 19 was picked over the 17? Relative unimportance of the sidearm v. added weight?
Dumb question, so don't answer if you don't feel like it, but what role does the HK45C serve, compared to what the Glock 19/P226 was suppose to do?
The HK 45C serves in the role of a suppressed pistol.
Out of curiosity, any word on why the 19 was picked over the 17? Relative unimportance of the sidearm v. added weight?
The 19 can fill a lot more roles without taking up as much real estate on an operators kit. The move away from a traditional sized "duty pistol" and a move to an "operators pistol" has been a reason behind the popularity of the G19.
The G19 is perhaps the most efficiently sized pistol in its class without giving up the capacity of a "duty size" pistol. The G19 can be carried covertly as well as overt supplement to a primary (RE: Long Gun) without being unnecessarily large (duty size).
Keep in mind that the G19 is replacing both the P239 and P226 9mm.
Personally, I think this has been a long time coming. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of really good pistols out there these days, and I like the SIG's. But when you start carrying a lot of gear, a pistol that does everything a 226 does in a lighter more efficient package is a huge step forward.
chamber143
12-09-15, 18:39
Out of curiosity, any word on why the 19 was picked over the 17? Relative unimportance of the sidearm v. added weight?
Curious as well. I prefer my 17 over my 19 in every circumstance including iwb ccw. That being said the 19 is a damn fine pistol.
Not NSW but the Glock 19 has been in use throughout JSOC and SF for a while, glad NSW is getting on board too. There are still 17s and 26s around but the 19 can fill the role of a combat sidearm and a concealable weapon for 90% of users without issue. The 17 not so much.
Rick
Curious as well. I prefer my 17 over my 19 in every circumstance including iwb ccw. That being said the 19 is a damn fine pistol.
Again, the main advantage of the G19 is portability vs. the G17 much like the MK18 is to the M4A1. We are not LE reliant mostly on a "duty weapon." A G17 has a marginal edge from a pure shooting standpoint as would any duty size pistol. However, when you want to carry covertly or when you are kitted up and have to carry a variety of other tools such as comms, medical, engineering, heavy weps et al..trimming the fat every where you can is a never ending process.
"Economy of motion" isn't just a catch phrase.
Good choice, no surprise that NSW is making the move.
A good shooter can rock someone's world in speed and accuracy with a G19. Not giving up any magazine capacity either. Smart move all around.
What is the replacement sight of choice? Is there only one that is used, or do you have somewhat of a choice between different sights?
Not surprising at all. Though I have to wonder what it says about the Sig P320...
WatchTheWorldBern
12-09-15, 19:42
Again, the main advantage of the G19 is portability vs. the G17 much like the MK18 is to the M4A1. We are not LE reliant mostly on a "duty weapon." A G17 has a marginal edge from a pure shooting standpoint as would any duty size pistol. However, when you want to carry covertly or when you are kitted up and have to carry a variety of other tools such as comms, medical, engineering, heavy weps et al..trimming the fat every where you can is a never ending process.
"Economy of motion" isn't just a catch phrase.
Got it. Makes a ton of sense.
What is the replacement sight of choice? Is there only one that is used, or do you have somewhat of a choice between different sights?
Really curious about this too, actually.
Not surprising at all. Though I have to wonder what it says about the Sig P320...
I wondered this too, but honestly, I doubt it says anything more than the simple fact that no one has beaten the Glock 19 for size efficiency, and it has a hell of a track record.
All pistols suck, so you might as well carry the smallest one that still does the job if you primarily work with other tools.
If there's any more concrete information on why the P320 was passed over, though, I'm definitely curious.
What is the replacement sight of choice? Is there only one that is used, or do you have somewhat of a choice between different sights?
These have not been issued. Word was passed to turn our SIG Holsters in 1 for 1 for the G19 Rigs today. Though we'd been told that we were going to the G19 for months no one until today thought it would come to pass.
We have asked many questions but many in the ordnance chain aren't ones for much detail. Sights are easy to customize but I'm guessing that when issued these will be Glock NS's GEN 3 G19's.
Got it. Makes a ton of sense.
Really curious about this too, actually.
I wondered this too, but honestly, I doubt it says anything more than the simple fact that no one has beaten the Glock 19 for size efficiency, and it has a hell of a track record.
All pistols suck, so you might as well carry the smallest one that still does the job if you primarily work with other tools.
If there's any more concrete information on why the P320 was passed over, though, I'm definitely curious.
I can't speak intelligently to the P320 but the G19 has had a relatively long "positive" track record with JSOC and as stated previously- no other pistol can match the G19 as far as size & efficiency is concerned, which is the biggest selling point of the G19.
Very interesting, indeed.
G19 has been around 20+ years and does quite a bit.
Blends in pretty much anywhere.
ETA may we ask what kind of holster? Just curious.
mkmckinley
12-09-15, 20:08
Nothing, it's just that the 19 has been in use for a long time already and is sort of vetted and guys are used to it.
I guess the value of my G19 just went up by a couple bucks at the next gun show.
Solid choice by NSW, the G19 is found world wide. It's kind of the AK of hand guns.
Very interesting, indeed.
G19 has been around 20+ years and does quite a bit.
Blends in pretty much anywhere.
ETA may we ask what kind of holster? Just curious.
Safariland and Serpa Rigs are standard in the supply chain. I am not 100% on the nomenclature of the new G19 rigs I will examine them when I'm back at "the office."
Sights are easy to customize but I'm guessing that when issued these will be Glock NS's GEN 3 G19's.
Surely they will send you guys steel factory night sights, but that is what I am curious about.
Surely they will send you guys steel factory night sights, but that is what I am curious about.
Again, we have not taken delivery of the G19's. The fact that other SOCOM Units have moved to this same pistol I would imagine it is the same variant G19 SOCOM wide...again Glock Night Sights, GEN 3, G19. These appear to be stock Glock$ SOCOM wide.
SOCOM pays the bills and the G19's have already been issued within the other SOCOM Units. If anything we are the last component to adopt it as SF, MARSOC, USAF SOCOM have already made the transition.
Again, we have not taken delivery of the G19's. The fact that other SOCOM Units have moved to this same pistol I would imagine it is the same variant G19 SOCOM wide...again Glock Night Sights, GEN 3, G19. These appear to be stock Glock$ SOCOM wide.
SOCOM pays the bills and the G19's have already been issued within the other SOCOM Units. If anything we are the last component to adopt it as SF, MARSOC, USAF SOCOM have already made the transition.
Albeit, NSW had to wait out the contract with SIG Sauer. I'm sure the commonality of the Glock 19 USSOCOM wide will be logistically superior and the bean counters will save millions in the age of .mil cutbacks. WTBS, I believe that USSOCOM got it right with this choice. Logistically and Tactically the G19 makes sense and it has had a 10yr+ "shake out" with JSOC and is a known proven factor.
MadAngler1
12-09-15, 21:41
Good to hear. I wonder if the Glock 19s issued to you guys will have ejectors and extractors made out of tool steel and not MIM like some have said. Any ejection issues with the JSOC G19s? I love my G17 and G19, but I do occasionally get brass sent to my forehead with my G19. I have yet to find time to perform the fix by swapping ejectors.
Compared to the P226, the G19 makes sense for you guys for all the reasons listed. I hope they work great for you guys; you deserve the best.
A few years ago I took a class from a then-recently retired gent from NSW who mentioned some amount of preference for hammer fired guns in regards to handling them around the webbing, lines and gear you guys have around. Is it not a valid concern anymore, or was it never a concern?
brushy bill
12-09-15, 21:52
Good to hear. I wonder if the Glock 19s issued to you guys will have ejectors and extractors made out of tool steel and not MIM like some have said. Any ejection issues with the JSOC G19s? I love my G17 and G19, but I do occasionally get brass sent to my forehead with my G19. I have yet to find time to perform the fix by swapping ejectors.
Compared to the P226, the G19 makes sense for you guys for all the reasons listed. I hope they work great for you guys; you deserve the best.
Well, don't think the ejectors & extractors were tool steel (strikers may have been), but I have wondered if these G19 get the same MIM treatment a blue label Glock would get. Hopefully Rana can let us know if these differ from mainstream.
Good to hear. I wonder if the Glock 19s issued to you guys will have ejectors and extractors made out of tool steel and not MIM like some have said. Any ejection issues with the JSOC G19s? I love my G17 and G19, but I do occasionally get brass sent to my forehead with my G19. I have yet to find time to perform the fix by swapping ejectors.
Compared to the P226, the G19 makes sense for you guys for all the reasons listed. I hope they work great for you guys; you deserve the best.
I believe these Glock 19's will be delivered stock. I have 2x personal GEN 3 19's and one easily has 50k+ rounds through it with no issues. I'm actually waiting for something to break on it but it keeps plugging away.
As far as upgrades, certain things can be done to enhance these guns and I've seen some in other SOCOM units with the RMR added.
Only time will tell what kind of enhancements are spawned out of operational necessity. Though I don't see much need for a whole lot of change to a stock G19...it is what it is.
A few years ago I took a class from a then-recently retired gent from NSW who mentioned some amount of preference for hammer fired guns in regards to handling them around the webbing, lines and gear you guys have around. Is it not a valid concern anymore, or was it never a concern?
The hammer fired guns offer the second strike capability....Pistol handling may change somewhat..but seeing how the G19 has already been serving within other units, in some cases for over a decade & through 2 very long wars...I've not yet seen an AAR describing any of the issues you reference..I believe they may be possible just not likely or have been mitigated by proper handling TTP's.
Keep in mind this change isn't just for the sake of change. SIG Sauer makes a damn good pistol in the P226 and P239, this change has more to do with having a common pistol throughout USSOCOM and saving you the tax payer millions of $$$ while still having the right tool to complete the "mish."
Thanks for taking the time to respond, Rana. An update once you get one in your hands would also be appreciated.
hopetonbrown
12-09-15, 22:24
I took a class this year with a well known NSW trainer, he said the maritime cups were a big selling point with the admirals.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-09-15, 23:02
Did y'all swap use all the Eotech lawsuit money to buy some new pistols?:D
friendlyfireisnt
12-10-15, 00:03
I don't have a ton of experience around the NSW types, as they weren't frequent customers of ours like the ODA's were, but a couple years ago when I was flying on contract in AFG, a lot of the various special guys we moved around had an interesting variety of pistols. Sig, M9's and Glock 19's. I don't think I ever saw a Glock 17 while there that I can remember.
The Glock 19 was especially popular amongst contractors, OGA's and the atmospherics guys. The ones I saw were all gen 3's. The only one I personally shot there had tritium sights of some sort.
Interesting to get Rana's take on the change. Curious to see how the change is received in the long run.
Man, I would love to take some of those 226s and 239s you guys are turning in:cool:
Now to see if Big Army follows suit. Thanks for the update Rana.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
patriot_man
12-10-15, 05:06
RTF2 frame would be awesome but a Glock 19 is pretty dang awesome nonetheless
Man, I would love to take some of those 226s and 239s you guys are turning in:cool:
It'll be about 90 years for CMP to get their hands on some.
Fordtough25
12-10-15, 05:31
Very cool, thanks for the info! Seems like most agencies and groups that use their pistols have changed to the G19, mine has been flawless through year of EDC and thousands of rounds.
It is interesting that they are making the change, but it makes sense that other SF units are using them then might as well keep them the same across the board.
Dumb question-(if your allowed to answer this one) what did you guys use P239's for? I'll admit that I was kind of surprised to see that when you first posted it. I was only aware that NSW was using P226's. Any idea what might happen to all the guns that are being rotated out? I do hope that they aren't headed for a shredder as so many "surplus guns" have in the past when the military was done with them.
I'm predicting a run of WTT 226 for 19 ads in the near future.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wonder if Glock will do a special run of anchor-marked G-19's for the civvie market? Sounds like something their advertising department would be all over.
Fordtough25
12-10-15, 07:24
Wonder if Glock will do a special run of anchor-marked G-19's for the civvie market? Sounds like something their advertising department would be all over.
Doubtful, I love Glocks but they don't care about us! Lol
The airsofters are going to go NUTS
I have been interested in purchasing a Sig MK.25 for some time now.
Does any one see this affecting the price and availability of those pistols in either direction? Do you think Sig will discontinue them?
It'll be interesting if they decide to replace the HK45C (MK24?) for a G30 or G30S with a threaded barrel sometime down the road.
It'll be interesting if they decide to replace the HK45C (MK24?) for a G30 or G30S with a threaded barrel sometime down the road.
Or simply a G19 with a threaded barrel, since 147 gr 9 mm JHP ammo is very effective.
WatchTheWorldBern
12-10-15, 08:47
The one benefit of .45 is that it's naturally subsonic—so maybe, though I suspect there's some kind of duration on the HK contract going forward—but the general trend has been away from pistols for a while now. Wouldn't be surprised if nothing much happens on that front. You're much better off with something like a Mk18 (and speed, surprise, violence of action, etc) in most cases. A suppressed pistol is cool, but I can't think of many situations where it's really practical.
Bulldog7972
12-10-15, 08:51
My question is why the Gen 3 G19? I'm new to Glock and have a Gen 4 that I love. The new style recoil spring seems to dampen recoil even though it's already low and I like the finger groves.
Oh I'm sure that the Glock marketing team is licking its chops over this one. I'm sure there will be some kind of special edition NSW model if it doesn't come from Glock I'm sure Lipsy's will be all over it.
Eurodriver
12-10-15, 09:08
The one benefit of .45 is that it's naturally subsonic.
So is 147gr 9mm...except you get a smaller weapon, more magazine capacity, and it's quieter.
WatchTheWorldBern
12-10-15, 09:32
So is 147gr 9mm...except you get a smaller weapon, more magazine capacity, and it's quieter.
Damn, I didn't realize that.
In that case, I think you can expect the Mk24 to do what the Mk23 did—sit in storage.
MountainRaven
12-10-15, 09:35
It is my understanding that the HK45C is a better platform to suppress and that it was guys on the UDT side of the teams that liked the Mk23 - both for ease of suppression and because they didn't rust as easily as the P226s. I would also guess that the P226 and HK45C will be slightly more reliable in amphibious operations than the Glock and kept available for that reason (I seem to recall LAV saying that it was a particular weakness of the Glock - it has been a while, though so it may have been somebody else, but I remember that it came up when the HK45C was adopted instead of a Glock).
That is a good point-the maritime caps on the striker are supposed to be weaker but if your in and out of water will the regular striker caps cause the gun to hydro lock? I recall reading a claim about that a long time ago hence the maritime caps.
It's also odd that NSW will go from the traditional roots of DA/SA to a striker fired. If I read the OP's one point correctly this is more due to simplifying the arsenal and what is being fielded? Am I correct in that assessment?
brickboy240
12-10-15, 12:13
The question should be....what took them this long to officially adopt the Glock 19?
Many SF units have used Glocks for a long time...might as well make it official.
As an owner (and fan) of the 3rd gen G19....I see why it was chosen.
OP did state that they had to wait until the contract with Sig ended. You don't go breaking that kind of contract or there will be Hell to pay-that and a lot of lawyer fees.
I'm showing my ignorance but have to ask. Besides Seals and pilots, who else will be issued the Glock 19?
Also, I predict that the Navy will require the Glocks to be carried with an empty chamber--same as with the 1911 .45 acp. If not, I predict that nd's will occur more frequently. I'm not saying that they should be carried on condition 3 but predict that condition 1 carry would result in more nd's.
Safety record can affect an officer promotion from low to high in chains of command, I think that this issue will determine method of carry.
Eurodriver, you were an active Marine not too long ago. How would the Marine Corps allow a Glock to be carried?
Eurodriver
12-10-15, 13:40
I'm showing my ignorance but have to ask. Besides Seals and pilots, who else will be issued the Glock 19?
Also, I predict that the Navy will require the Glocks to be carried with an empty chamber--same as with the 1911 .45 acp. If not, I predict that nd's will occur more frequently. I'm not saying that they should be carried on condition 3 but predict that condition 1 carry would result in more nd's.
Safety record can affect an officer promotion from low to high in chains of command, I think that this issue will determine method of carry.
Eurodriver, you were an active Marine not too long ago. How would the Marine Corps allow a Glock to be carried?
On base - Condition 3. Mag inserted empty chamber.
As soon as we left the wire you'd rack the slide. I suspect NSW guys are much less regulated regarding the condition of their sidearms.
plouffedaddy
12-10-15, 13:55
I can't speak intelligently to the P320 but the G19 has had a relatively long "positive" track record with JSOC and as stated previously- no other pistol can match the G19 as far as size & efficiency is concerned, which is the biggest selling point of the G19.
This is certainly true and I believe has a good bit to do with the decision.
Seems like a very logical, low risk decision. The Model 19 is Glock's best pistol and GLOCK makes one of the best pistols so it goes without saying.
Congratulations!
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Drifting Fate
12-10-15, 22:12
I think the Sig P226 was a great choice, but so is the G19 and at a cost savings with better versatility.
May this next phase in NSW small arms serve them well.
I'm showing my ignorance but have to ask. Besides Seals and pilots, who else will be issued the Glock 19?
Also, I predict that the Navy will require the Glocks to be carried with an empty chamber--same as with the 1911 .45 acp. If not, I predict that nd's will occur more frequently. I'm not saying that they should be carried on condition 3 but predict that condition 1 carry would result in more nd's.
Safety record can affect an officer promotion from low to high in chains of command, I think that this issue will determine method of carry.
Eurodriver, you were an active Marine not too long ago. How would the Marine Corps allow a Glock to be carried?
Probably a safe assumption that the ND rate for NSW is pretty low.
I'm showing my ignorance but have to ask. Besides Seals and pilots, who else will be issued the Glock 19?
Also, I predict that the Navy will require the Glocks to be carried with an empty chamber--same as with the 1911 .45 acp. If not, I predict that nd's will occur more frequently. I'm not saying that they should be carried on condition 3 but predict that condition 1 carry would result in more nd's.
Safety record can affect an officer promotion from low to high in chains of command, I think that this issue will determine method of carry.
Eurodriver, you were an active Marine not too long ago. How would the Marine Corps allow a Glock to be carried?
As per the thread title "NSW Goes Glock" it will be, in fact, NSW that is issued glocks. Which is less than 1% of the Navy. Not 100% - but pretty sure that doesn't include pilots.
I havent ever carried a weapon in condition 3 anywhere. Im 100% certain that the SEALs will be just fine with a round in the chamber.
Rick
southswede
12-11-15, 08:09
As per the thread title "NSW Goes Glock" it will be, in fact, NSW that is issued glocks. Which is less than 1% of the Navy. Not 100% - but pretty sure that doesn't include pilots.
I havent ever carried a weapon in condition 3 anywhere. Im 100% certain that the SEALs will be just fine with a round in the chamber.
Rick
I had to laugh at the concern expressed.
The hammer fired guns offer the second strike capability....."
Not trying to be a smartass, but is that really something y'all practice? I hear it all the time when folks try to justify a hammer fired pistol, but all my training has been to tap/rack when the gun doesn't go bang. I've trained with Defoor twice and he didn't mention the second strike option. Seems like a waste of valuable time.
crusader377
12-11-15, 10:11
I think the Sig P226 was a great choice, but so is the G19 and at a cost savings with better versatility.
May this next phase in NSW small arms serve them well.
Even if the G19 simply matched the P226 it would still be a big plus simply because a loaded G19 with 2 additional spare magazines saves nearly a pound of weight vs a Sig P226 in similar configuration. Our warfighters are already overloaded and anything the military can do to save weight while maintaining effectiveness is a no brainer especially if it is an affordable solution like the G19.
I'm not a Glock guy [yet- grin] and maybe its because I have big hands but it sure seems to me the full size 17 would be a better shooting choice over the 19. No doubt the trained guys can shoot anything you put in their hands...but I just don't get the size weight advantage with the 19....it sure doesn't seem worth it.
I have the G23...and the grip seems small to me.
Psalms144.1
12-11-15, 12:34
I just don't get the size weight advantage with the 19....it sure doesn't seem worth it.
I have the G23...and the grip seems small to me.When you need to conceal a weapon in a location where having a weapon will end you in prison for years and years and years with pretty terrible "customer service," where the USG can't/won't officially admit that you were carrying said pistol for official reasons, concealability becomes a MAJOR factor. Yes, the G17 is a little easier to shoot well, and holds two more rounds, but it's larger enough, for a lot of folks, that deep concealment can be problematic.
When you need to conceal a weapon in a location where having a weapon will end you in prison for years and years and years with pretty terrible "customer service," where the USG can't/won't officially admit that you were carrying said pistol for official reasons, concealability becomes a MAJOR factor. Yes, the G17 is a little easier to shoot well, and holds two more rounds, but it's larger enough, for a lot of folks, that deep concealment can be problematic.
The point is a good one - but the example is way out there. I take it you aren't familiar with the SEAL mission set.
Rick
Eurodriver
12-11-15, 13:15
This thread is drifting into fantasy movie land. Can we bring it back to reality?
When might we expect official procurement?
Side note. Was the p229 considered?
Side note. Was the p229 considered?
Why?
Army Special Forces have been using the Model 19 for some time now. Same as USMC MARSOC.
The goal is to commonize good gear.
I think they did an admirable job.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
What pistol would be 2015's?
Not trying to be a smartass, but is that really something y'all practice? I hear it all the time when folks try to justify a hammer fired pistol, but all my training has been to tap/rack when the gun doesn't go bang. I've trained with Defoor twice and he didn't mention the second strike option. Seems like a waste of valuable time.
That is a legit question.
It isn't something that necessarily needs to be "practiced" as it is simply a mechanical "back up" option to the Hammer DA guns.
Why have it?
Having both hands available isn't a guarantee.
Example- if an operator is on a caving ladder as the lead climber and he needs at least one hand on that ladder to clear his dead space in a VBSS/Maritime Scenerio, or he looses the ability to use his support hand from injury.
RE: Doing a "tap rack bang" drill while escalating a 50' caving ladder, at night, while underway on a moving vessel isn't going to happen without the operator ending up in "the drink." That scenario is unlikely to most people outside military or special operations; so I can see how a different mindset may develope in regards to those who don't live, train, and operate outside of the box.
Side note. Was the p229 considered?
I think everyone is "over thinking" this way to much.
USSOCOM wants a standard pistol. The G19 has proven itself over more than a decade. It is less expensive, light, capable, and extremely versatile.
But most importantly it is already in the USSOCOM pipeline.
The SIG isn't being replaced because it isn't a capable pistol; it is being replaced because there is a more cost effective option available.
While everyone wants to play the insert their favorite pistol game the reality is that the G19 meets the mission requirements as good as the best pistols available and it does it at a much lower price point.
arbninftry
12-11-15, 16:24
Rana hits the nail on the head. Money drives everything. when procurement officers start buying items it makes sense to buy something already in use. This is also done with larger LE contracts, ie the FBI submits requests for ammo/weapons and any other agency can jump on board. So it only makes sense as SOCOM starts funding operations in the future.
On the .mil side having that familiar weapons system really makes sense.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2012armaments/Tuesday13939SkipBarth.pdf
Follow the link this is not new and has been in the works for years.
I think everyone is "over thinking" this way to much.
USSOCOM wants a standard pistol. The G19 has proven itself over more than a decade. It is less expensive, light, capable, and extremely versatile.
But most importantly it is already in the USSOCOM pipeline.
The SIG isn't being replaced because it isn't a capable pistol; it is being replaced because there is a more cost effective option available.
While everyone wants to play the insert their favorite pistol game the reality is that the G19 meets the mission requirements as good as the best pistols available and it does it at a much lower price point.
This thread is drifting into fantasy movie land. Can we bring it back to reality?
When might we expect official procurement?
Apologies, I don't have an exact date. Many in the ordnance dept don't know when items are coming until they show up.
I will follow up accordingly, that might be in a week or a month, until then hang tight.
It would be nice if this derails the search for a new pistol.
But I'm pretty sure that somewhere a bright, young O-4 is determined to make sure that it won't.
Okie John
It would be nice if this derails the search for a new pistol.
But I'm pretty sure that somewhere a bright, young O-4 is determined to make sure that it won't.
Okie John
The "Golden Connects" has closed long ago. Unless it is a move to save $, a new DOD Wide Pistol is a pipe dream at this juncture in time and the stuff of gun rag allure.
I'd like to imagine that the NSW SIGS make there way out to the fleet or to other units such as EOD. I'm sure that CRANE can cannabilze and sustain what we turn in for at least another 5+ years to security and EOD units that don't use/abuse these in the same manner as NSW.
MountainRaven
12-11-15, 16:56
What pistol would be 2015's?
Phased plasma pistol in the 15 watt range.
Phased plasma pistol in the 15 watt range.
40 watt range..:cool:
The g19 is an excellent choice. I know it was mentioned gen 3 is the likely gen chosen but I could see gen 4 being a good fit. Any idea on Frame color black, fde, or od?
It'll be interesting if they decide to replace the HK45C (MK24?) for a G30 or G30S with a threaded barrel sometime down the road.
The G30 and SIG 220 both competed in the MK24 trials and lost to the HK45C.
The HK45C, and HK45's in general, are without a doubt the most superior suppressed pistol hosts on the planet. The fact that they stand up to very harsh conditions and perform well in and around salt water make it ideal as NSW's suppressed pistol.
The over engineering of HK Handguns is a plus when a "can" is stuck on the end of them; as that over engineering actually serves a practical purpose in this instance.
The HK45C is a clear winner for NSW but is use specific.
Why?
Army Special Forces have been using the Model 19 for some time now. Same as USMC MARSOC.
The goal is to commonize good gear.
I think they did an admirable job.
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
I think everyone is "over thinking" this way to much.
USSOCOM wants a standard pistol. The G19 has proven itself over more than a decade. It is less expensive, light, capable, and extremely versatile.
But most importantly it is already in the USSOCOM pipeline.
The SIG isn't being replaced because it isn't a capable pistol; it is being replaced because there is a more cost effective option available.
While everyone wants to play the insert their favorite pistol game the reality is that the G19 meets the mission requirements as good as the best pistols available and it does it at a much lower price point.
And that's fine and as good a reason as any. I simply asked a question.
trackmagic
12-11-15, 18:57
I always thought the "re strike capability" was kind weak of an excuse to hate on glocks. Most of the pistol classes I have taken taught tap rack bang for the primary remedial action. If I did not have use of one of my hands I could just hooked the rear site on my belt to rack it.
I'm sure none of those techniques are news to the people on this board though.
It is interesting that they are making the change, but it makes sense that other SF units are using them then might as well keep them the same across the board.
Dumb question-(if your allowed to answer this one) what did you guys use P239's for? I'll admit that I was kind of surprised to see that when you first posted it. I was only aware that NSW was using P226's. Any idea what might happen to all the guns that are being rotated out? I do hope that they aren't headed for a shredder as so many "surplus guns" have in the past when the military was done with them.
The P239 was used for conceal carry and as a lower profile pistol on an operators kit. The G19, again, will fill this role as well as the role of a higher capacity full size pistol. The G19 can do the same thing the P239 and P226 do in a singular package. This fact plus the overall cost effectiveness & the contract sunset make for the transition to the USSOCOM Standardized 9mm Pistol (RE:G19).
The G19 is not new to USSOCOM. I remember seeing the G19 down range as far back as 2005 in the holsters of various individuals organic to JSOC Units.
I apologize if I am not getting these points across with my previous response.
I can't tell you any specifics on where the SIG's will go after CRANE gets them back, I would not be surprised if other Navy Units received them. I've seen old NSW 727 Colt Carbines in service with fleet security and Fleet controlled Special Operation units and Some Navy EOD have the P226, plenty of naval security and VBSS teams have older MP5 and MK18's that started life as NSW Guns too. These weapons are more than capable for service throughout the Fleet Navy. With so many cut backs, destroying these weapons would be a fiscally poor move in my opinion and not in tune with the times (fiscally).
The SIG Sauer pistols are extremely good guns; a good heads up leader would be wise to track these and be the first to pounce on them if it is something that could be justified.
These things happen at a much higher level than anyone in my current CoC.
Eurodriver
12-11-15, 19:22
Apologies, I don't have an exact date. Many in the ordnance dept don't know when items are coming until they show up.
I will follow up accordingly, that might be in a week or a month, until then hang tight.
Understood. Your time spent sharing these details with us is very appreciated, Rana.
Are the Special Boat Teams considered part of NSW, and will they also get the G19?
Regards,
Tecolote
I always thought the "re strike capability" was kind weak of an excuse to hate on glocks. Most of the pistol classes I have taken taught tap rack bang for the primary remedial action. If I did not have use of one of my hands I could just hooked the rear site on my belt to rack it.
I'm sure none of those techniques are news to the people on this board though.
I did not reference the second strike capability as a means to deflate the Glock. I like the Glock and actually think the G19 is the most practical pistol USSOCOM could adopt as an across the board handgun, I own 2 of them and shoot them with great frequency.
FWIW the second strike capability of the SIG does offer relevance in certain scenarios. It is easy to say what one "would do" until they are dangling off a wire ladder at night along side a moving vessel, they are on a repel line clearing dead space from the exterior of a multi-tier structure, or they have so much gear on that cocking a pistol on a belt line buried under multi layers of kit just isn't a option.
NSW still has a DA Suppressed HK with the second strike capability and it is ideal as an initial entry, boarding, clearing, stealth capable weapon. If you are a Recce Guy the HK45C w/ CAN is a must.
But I digress..and would ask that this not turn into a thread that mirrors what is seen on most other boards. The inception of M4C has traditionally been to mitigate this and there is a plethora of experience here that objectively shares information in an open forum setting. Notice I did not take this to any other forums as most are cluttered with clowns quick to interject emotion and personal preference into every topic and attack anyone who offers alternate experiences.
This thread is slowly becoming a "no good deed goes unpunished" scenario.
I do not post frequently and would like to think when I do it is relavent, unclas information devoid of subjective material.
Are the Special Boat Teams considered part of NSW, and will they also get the G19?
Regards,
Tecolote
The SBT Guys are NSW. Not sure if/when the G19 makes its way into the Boat Teams, they have used the P228 for many years and the pistol is not as relevant to them as heavy crew serve weapons are. WTBS I would expect that they would make the transition too. My next inner op with a SBT I can always ask that question.
Rana:
If you think this thread has run its course, I'd be glad to close it for you before it goes further off the tracks. Thanks for posting useful information.
Now to see if Big Army follows suit. Thanks for the update Rana.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That makes too much sense. The universe would explode.
Rana:
If you think this thread has run its course, I'd be glad to close it for you before it goes further off the tracks. Thanks for posting useful information.
I'd say it's up to M4C- more specifically those who truly have an interest in the subject; In the meantime I perhaps think it prudent to sign off until an issued G19 resides in the space of my weapons kit were a P226 and P239 normally would reside.
Rana:
Thank you for your reply. We have an annual event here (Trail of Honor, Jackson MS) that SBT 22 usually brings a couple of boats to for a demo. And,yes , when I asked about their use of small arms they did point out their emphasis on crew served weapons. Again, thanks for your reply.
Regards,
Tecolote
This makes perfect sense and I'm glad to hear it.
methical20
12-11-15, 20:48
Rana,
Thank you for the information. We appreciate you taking your time to come in here and share your knowledge with us.
Drifting Fate
12-12-15, 02:16
Rana,
Thank you for the information. We appreciate you taking your time to come in here and share your knowledge with us.
I couldn't have said it better. Thank you for your willingness to share what you know!
I couldn't have said it better. Thank you for your willingness to share what you know!
Yeah, I'll third this. Thanks Rana for sharing your knowledge with us.
Bulldog7972
12-12-15, 10:21
Not trying to be a smartass, but is that really something y'all practice? I hear it all the time when folks try to justify a hammer fired pistol, but all my training has been to tap/rack when the gun doesn't go bang. I've trained with Defoor twice and he didn't mention the second strike option. Seems like a waste of valuable time.
Second strike capability saved my life once. I carry a G19 now but I'm glad I had my 226 that day. Just sayin.
Rotorhead84
12-12-15, 10:55
Sweet. Now I can instantly command a 50% premium of my Gen 3 19 on gunbroker. :rolleyes:
:jester:
SoloDallas
12-12-15, 11:04
I, for one, just bought a G19 here in Commieformia, this morning. Bought a gen 4 (I seem to like it more) hence had to go second hand. Even better.
Good to know; SOCOM units (and specifically, Navy SEALS) are my ideal military units in the entire world. And I do live in San Diego :cool:
I, for one, just bought a G19 here in Commieformia, this morning. Bought a gen 4 (I seem to like it more) hence had to go second hand. Even better.
Good to know; SOCOM units (and specifically, Navy SEALS) are my ideal military units in the entire world. And I do live in San Diego :cool:
It's hard to not be a fan of the teams when you live in San Diego.
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SoloDallas
12-12-15, 14:11
It's hard to not be a fan of the teams when you live in San Diego.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
True.
But for me it goes beyond that; it's really something I have had in me since I was a child, I guess. US Military, its history, its grandeur.
That just shines into splendor when thinking of Navy SEALS and the various other SOCOM corps. Just the best in the world.
I'd say it's up to M4C- more specifically those who truly have an interest in the subject; In the meantime I perhaps think it prudent to sign off until an issued G19 resides in the space of my weapons kit were a P226 and P239 normally would reside.
Thanks for taking the time to post the information and answer questions. I would be interested in hearing about the pistol itself when you receive it. Be interesting to see if you make any changes to it; if so what and why.
Thanks again.
Appreciate your time Rana.
Answer The Bell
HardLuck682
12-13-15, 08:34
Rana, first off one Vet to another, thank you for your service.
Secondly, thank you for this information. I'm interested to updates once you get an issued Glock in hand.
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My question is why the Gen 3 G19? I'm new to Glock and have a Gen 4 that I love. The new style recoil spring seems to dampen recoil even though it's already low and I like the finger groves.
I'd like to know this too; is there a specific reason why they chose to go with gen 3 over gen 4? I'm assuming that they did go with gen 3.
The Gen 3 G19 is already a POR at USSOCOM. I believe it was called the "Combat Assault Pistol." Most likely, NSW has simply said, "Yeah, we'll take those," since the rest of SOCOM already has.
AFSOC and USASOC I believe got on board officially in 2009, but many units had them well before that. I was issued one in 2006/2007 (?).
Its been a while but I am pretty sure that was the nomenclature when the transition memo came down in 2009.
Thank you M4Guru,
I'm sorry but what does POR stand for?
Thank you M4Guru,
I'm sorry but what does POR stand for?
Process of record (and it's variants that mean the same thing). Basically it means it's the established standard that's gone through all of the vetting and approvals.
Process of record (and it's variants that mean the same thing). Basically it means it's the established standard that's gone through all of the vetting and approvals.
Close, Program of Record.
Rick
Are the guns already in the system RTF2 gen. 3 frames?
It would be cool if they are, and this means black RTF2 frames will available from the factory as a fancy "NSW" Glock.
Its cool LAV did the FDE and now Grey RTF2 frames, but I love plain old black.
Close, Program of Record.
Rick
Hence the "and it's variants that mean the same thing" ;). POR means the same thing across many different industries, but the acutal "P" word can differ (process/program/procedure/production...).
I havent seen any RTF-2 frames. Only Gen 3 Glocks with the standard frame.
I hadn't heard process of record - but Im only familiar with the military side of things.
Mrgunsngear
12-16-15, 12:53
The Gen 3 G19 is already a POR at USSOCOM. I believe it was called the "Combat Assault Pistol." Most likely, NSW has simply said, "Yeah, we'll take those," since the rest of SOCOM already has.
AFSOC and USASOC I believe got on board officially in 2009, but many units had them well before that. I was issued one in 2006/2007 (?).
Its been a while but I am pretty sure that was the nomenclature when the transition memo came down in 2009.
You're correct.
Mrgunsngear
12-16-15, 12:53
Are the guns already in the system RTF2 gen. 3 frames?
It would be cool if they are, and this means black RTF2 frames will available from the factory as a fancy "NSW" Glock.
Its cool LAV did the FDE and now Grey RTF2 frames, but I love plain old black.
Nope; plain black. Regular old G19 with 5lb connector; standard springs.
vereceleritas
12-16-15, 14:14
I'd like to know this too; is there a specific reason why they chose to go with gen 3 over gen 4? I'm assuming that they did go with gen 3.
If the purpose of the switch was for a standardized pistol for USSOCOM to simplify logistics, training, and acquisition, going to a Gen4 would've defeated that purpose. Some Gen4 parts, including the slide and frame, are not compatible with Gen3 guns and vice versa.
Thanks Rana and others for the useful info. Good to know.
Latest update: the G19 will be integrated over the next 2 years to replace the SIG's. The SIGs will be around another 2 years in some capacity as each Team goes through a work up and receives extensive training with the G19 vs the P226 prior to deploying with it.
Which makes perfect sense.
When asked about delivery we have been told to "stand by."
WTBS there are a lot of interesting things coming down the pipeline and a lot of things going away because they just don't provide much relevance; or said items perform poorly in the field.
teutonicpolymer
12-17-15, 09:04
I really feel like they could've done better (could've done much worse too)
Eurodriver
12-17-15, 10:24
WTBS there are a lot of interesting things coming down the pipeline and a lot of things going away because they just don't provide much relevance; or said items perform poorly in the field.
This has my interest very piqued.
I really feel like they could've done better (could've done much worse too)
Tell us more about your experience in Naval Surface Warfare, government acquisitions, and bureaucracy.
Tell us more about your experience in Naval Surface Warfare, government acquisitions, and bureaucracy.
I'd tell you about my Naval Surface Welfare experience but that'd be pretty boring. NSW is Naval Special Warfare.
Eurodriver
12-17-15, 19:17
I'd tell you about my Naval Surface Welfare experience but that'd be pretty boring. NSW is Naval Special Warfare.
Naval Surface Welfare? ;)
Great evidence that typos happen. :big_boss:
In all seriousness, we know NSW/SF doesn't always get what they should regardless of quality (ex: Eotech). On the face of your statement, I agree with it but I would be interested to see what Rana says regarding NSW's feelings toward Glocks as the new sidearm.
Naval Surface Welfare? ;)
Great evidence that typos happen. :big_boss:
In all seriousness, we know NSW/SF doesn't always get what they should regardless of quality (ex: Eotech). On the face of your statement, I agree with it but I would be interested to see what Rana says regarding NSW's feelings toward Glocks as the new sidearm.
I can't speak for NSW but on the SF side of the house the vast majority of people are completely satisfied with the glock 19. There are a few dudes with huge hands who still prefer the M9, but pretty much everyone agrees the Glock 19 is the best choice for the force.
Rick
Latest update: the G19 will be integrated over the next 2 years to replace the SIG's. The SIGs will be around another 2 years in some capacity as each Team goes through a work up and receives extensive training with the G19 vs the P226 prior to deploying with it.
Which makes perfect sense.
Glad to hear that, it certainly does make a perfect sense. Lets Teams vet the gun themselves. I'd certainly be curious to know how G19 holds up when you guys take it in and under the water; please let us know if you can.
Glad to hear that, it certainly does make a perfect sense. Lets Teams vet the gun themselves. I'd certainly be curious to know how G19 holds up when you guys take it in and under the water; please let us know if you can.
The G19, being a polymer frame pistol, is going to be a lot less susceptible to the rust issues that metal framed pistol are inclined to have. Again, the G19 is not a new entity, with over a decade of service within USSOCOM it has been proven in every environment we operate in and the USASOC has paved the way for the other services within USSOCOM. If anything people should NOT be giving credence to NSW but to U.S. Army SOF- They had the foresight to adopt a pistol..that for all intensive purpose...was light years before its time.
WTBS the real need in conjunction with the G19 is modern JHP's as standard down range. Let's hope this happens before our next push into the frey.
For many years I had been a dyed in wool advocate of .45ACP- especially when relegated to FMJ's. The advancement of modern JHP ammo has reconfirmed the 9mm as the premier cartridge of military and law enforcement agencies world wide...anything else is pretty much frivolous as a general purpose standard issue pistol caliber. That is not to say 9MM is the "ONLY Caliber." Before people get bent out of shape I still really like .45ACP and enjoy shooting that caliber above all pistol calibers; but that is me being subjective and does not change the fact that 9mm is and will probably remain the "world standard" for the foreseeable future.
What the G19 and 9mm have in common is that they are both size efficient, practical instruments, that perform at an exceedingly high level.
liar....
Like Rana said the choice is made simply due to being able to accomplish multiple roles with one item. Is it a perfect system? no. Like many i much prefer the 17, having fairly large hands but i know the reason they are going with the 19, like the Army counterparts, SOCOM as a whole are making huge strides to standardize the force. Bringing all SOF units inline in many equipment arenas to simplify the battle space. It says nothing about the 320 or any other pistol only that the Glock 19 is already used by other units and is much cheaper then the Sig without giving anything up. Simple decision from the bean counter point of view.
Forgive my ignorance on this question-but I thought the military was not allowed the use of hollow points under the Geneva Convention?
Forgive my ignorance on this question-but I thought the military was not allowed the use of hollow points under the Geneva Convention?
The U.S. never formally agreed to The Hague Convention Accords, not sure where people get "Geneva Convention?" The DOD is currently considering 9mm JHP Ammo as standard- though it is already authorized for Physical Security, CT, and PSD work.
If and when 9mm JHP ammo is authorized across the board the argument for another or larger caliber pistol will not be a very strong one.
Admittingly the 124 grain 9mm FMJ NATO round is not the most ideal 9mm cartridge and everyone in the DOD knows this based on performance, or lack there of "down range." There are a variety of other factors as well; the inherent limitations of pistol calibers and shot placement being the most glaring.
I understand now. I knew that there was a big thing about the use of "hollow point" match ammunition for snipers at one point. That's why I asked. What rounds are being considered for standard issue (or are being issued)
Glad to see NSW coming to the party. I like the 226, and I think the 239 rocks, but the Glock makes so much sense on so many levels.
Rana, I was not aware (and nor should I have been) that NSW used the 239. Is (was?) the use a personal choice, or mission-specific choice for concealability?
Glad to see NSW coming to the party. I like the 226, and I think the 239 rocks, but the Glock makes so much sense on so many levels.
Rana, I was not aware (and nor should I have been) that NSW used the 239. Is (was?) the use a personal choice, or mission-specific choice for concealability?
The P239 was originally aquired to fill a conceal carry/low profile role. Some guys liked the ease of carry so much that they started to carry it as a secondary. I carried a P239 iwb or in the kangaroo pouch of my LBE while mounted in a tactical vehicle the last deployment I did with "Big Joe." I only used my P226 on the range; and even then I used the P239 more as it was what I carried most of the time. A G19 would have been ideal then. A full size duty pistol isn't something I would personally want in conjunction with my MK18 or MK17 today.
The G19 and HK45C will fulfill just about every pistol role I can think of for NSW, we just need to go all in on modern JHP Ammo to feed them. Though Ball 230gr .45ACP might be the most ideal load for suppressed use...which is a big reason we probably still have a need for .45ACP.
The P239 was originally aquired to fill a conceal carry/low profile role. Some guys liked the ease of carry so much that they started to carry it as a secondary. I carried a P239 iwb or in the kangaroo pouch of my LBE while mounted in a tactical vehicle the last deployment I did with "Big Joe." I only used my P226 on the range; and even then I used the P239 more as it was what I carried most of the time. A G19 would have been ideal then. A full size duty pistol isn't something I would personally want in conjunction with my MK18 or MK17 today.
The G19 and HK45C will fulfill just about every pistol role I can think of for NSW, we just need to go all in on modern JHP Ammo to feed them. Though Ball 230gr .45ACP might be the most ideal load for suppressed use...which is a big reason we probably still have a need for .45ACP.
Thanks for the gouge. About what I suspected. I really, really like the 239 and carried one for years before I went all-Glock for standardization sake.
I can't image too many scenarios where neither a G19 or a HK45 would work.
Thanks for all the information. This thread has been educational.
I'm kinda surprised that you guys had P239's and not P228's. Not that much difference in size and you had more rounds in the gun. I agree this thread has been very educational. The part that I like the most is that the OP is giving a fair/non bias opinion on the subject. I think it would be interesting to see the first time on the range with the NSW guys and their new G19's.
So does this mean that the G19 will be dubbed the MK26? lol
I'm kinda surprised that you guys had P239's and not P228's. Not that much difference in size and you had more rounds in the gun. I agree this thread has been very educational. The part that I like the most is that the OP is giving a fair/non bias opinion on the subject. I think it would be interesting to see the first time on the range with the NSW guys and their new G19's.
So does this mean that the G19 will be dubbed the MK26? lol
The P228 was issued to the ST's up until 2006. It is still in service with the SBT's as their standard pistol. In 2006 NSW decommissioned the MK23, Crane 1911's, & SW 686 wheel guns. The .45's were the primary pistols of the SBT's, so all the P228's went to the SBT's as their standard pistol to replace the decommissioned .45's. The folded steel P228's do not do well in salt water, and having actually used the P228 SBT guns on the range..I will say the P228 has seen better days.
We had an interim Conceal Carry pistol in the Walther PPK .380..which was garbage- Mainly because the trigger was about 15lbs, it was a very heavy pistol for its size, had a slide mounted manual safety, and utilized an anemic non standard .380 cartridge. Then came the P239 which is really nice for conceal carry as it is same manual of arms as the P226 and is fairly slim and compact.
In 2009-2010 we had the MK24 trials which put a suppressed .45 back into the line-up as well as brought a pistol that we could actually dive back into service.
The Glock 19 has been used by JSOC to include the NSW component since 2005, it is a vetted pistol with a decade+ of positive real world testing. The SBT's will greatly benefit with the G19 based on all their exposure to salt water alone.
The P228 was issued to the ST's up until 2006. It is still in service with the SBT's as their standard pistol. In 2006 NSW decommissioned the MK23, Crane 1911's, & SW 686 wheel guns. The .45's were the primary pistols of the SBT's, so all the P228's went to the SBT's as their standard pistol to replace the decommissioned .45's. The folded steel P228's do not do well in salt water, and having actually used the P228 SBT guns on the range..I will say the P228 has seen better days.
We had an interim Conceal Carry pistol in the Walther PPK .380..which was garbage- Mainly because the trigger was about 15lbs, it was a very heavy pistol for its size, had a slide mounted manual safety, and utilized an anemic non standard .380 cartridge. Then came the P239 which is really nice for conceal carry as it is same manual of arms as the P226 and is fairly slim and compact.
In 2009-2010 we had the MK24 trials which put a suppressed .45 back into the line-up as well as brought a pistol that we could actually dive back into service.
The Glock 19 has been used by JSOC to include the NSW component since 2005, it is a vetted pistol with a decade+ of positive real world testing. The SBT's will greatly benefit with the G19 based on all their exposure to salt water alone.
Sorry I know this is about the G19, but do you have any information or can you give any information on the Crane 1911's?
Thanks Scott
Sorry I know this is about the G19, but do you have any information or can you give any information on the Crane 1911's?
Thanks Scott
IIRC, basic carbon steel government 1911 fitted with Kart NM BBL, bobbed spur hammer, GI grip safety, stippled front and back strap, single sided thumb safety, videki solid aluminum mid length triggers, and Bomar Sights.
nugentjeep45
12-23-15, 01:48
Rana, have you heard any info as to what brand or type (night or fiber optic) of sights the NSW g19's will be issued with? Thanks for your service.
You peaked my interest with regards to the P228 slide issues. Was it a rust/corrosion issue or something worse with the rolled slides?
Rana, have you heard any info as to what brand or type (night or fiber optic) of sights the NSW g19's will be issued with? Thanks for your service.
The G19 is said to be the same spec as the rest of SOCOM. If you look at what MARSOC just officially adopted, we are to go to the same G19.
You peaked my interest with regards to the P228 slide issues. Was it a rust/corrosion issue or something worse with the rolled slides?
Corrosion is an issue with all Classic P Series Pistols. The P228 slide issues aside- the internals, springs, barrels also suffer a great deal with salt H2O exposure. The SIG trigger gets gritty and the springs get replaced with what seems to be ultra heavy springs. The SBT's aren't heavily reliant on a pistol. The SBT mission is crew service in nature but they are issued Colt M4A1 carbines with those SIG P228 pistols more for E&E or "off the boat" purpose.
jerrysimons
12-24-15, 10:12
Any tips on how to maintain a pistol for salt water exposure and function after a dive? Are you cleaning/lubing it as soon as possible after a dive or just giving it a good coat of lube before and rolling with it after getting wet?
Thanks
titsonritz
12-26-15, 22:37
Here's a little write up on the subject: Naval Special Warfare adopts the Glock 19 (http://loadoutroom.com/17950/naval-special-warfare-selects-the-glock-19/)
Here's a little write up on the subject: Naval Special Warfare adopts the Glock 19 (http://loadoutroom.com/17950/naval-special-warfare-selects-the-glock-19/)
I made the mistake of reading some comments, now my head hurts.
I made the mistake of reading some comments, now my head hurts.
You and me both. Reading some of the comments I can just picture a fat neck bearded air soft fan-boy in his moms basement.
I made the mistake of reading some comments, now my head hurts.
Just like a YT vid, never read the comments below it if you don't want to see just how stupid people are out there.
Lol imagine in Rana and my position where everyone on the internet evidently knows better than us.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I made the mistake of reading some comments, now my head hurts.
I read them too. And a few other articles to catch up on the site. Didn't miss much apparently. What a dump.
Are there many in the NSW community who don't know much about firearms beyond what is needed for work? I was an 03 in the USMC and though everyone knew the weapon systems they needed to, and most had a general interest in guns, there were plenty who talked out their ass, didnt know about internal, external, amd terminal ballistics, etc, or even if they knew how a .50 cal worked probably didn't understand exactly what every part of the bolt they just took apart did... Just curious given it is a much more intimate part of your job, you guys get more trigger time, etc.
Thanks
Mike
Sent from my cell phone with a tiny keyboard and large thumbs...
Are there many in the NSW community who don't know much about firearms beyond what is needed for work?
Yes. Perhaps the majority fit in this group.
I just bought a gen 4 G19 a couple of weeks ago. Good thing I did because there will probably be a big rush on them now.:sarcastic:
Lol imagine in Rana and my position where everyone on the internet evidently knows better than us.
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How could you argue with such wisdom as....
"A polymer frame doesn't suck the heat as much from the shooters hand vs a metal frame thus effecting the shooters performance.
-Glocks can be fired under water."
I'm glad you guys are on this site, and ID'd so everybody knows who is bullshitting or not.
As far as the G19...if a guy decides he doesn't like it as well, is he free to field what he wants? Or must everyone go G19? I don't shoot Glocks very well, and I'm not sure why. It's not because I don't like them either. But because of this, I can see where a guy might want to have something different.
Just curious. Thanks for y'alls time contributing.
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Are there many in the NSW community who don't know much about firearms beyond what is needed for work?
Can't speak for NSW, but SF was definitely like that. Some of us had an interest in weapons that went beyond just knowing how to use them. Other guys focused on parachuting or water ops or clandestine photography or whatever. Everybody could make stuff work, but not everybody could hold forth on the finer points of 1911 slide stop checkering pattern variations. And that was good--there was just too much shit to do and too much stuff to know for everyone to be an SME on weapons.
That said, I'm deeply grateful that Rana and the other NSW types are keeping us up to date.
Okie John
Any tips on how to maintain a pistol for salt water exposure and function after a dive? Are you cleaning/lubing it as soon as possible after a dive or just giving it a good coat of lube before and rolling with it after getting wet?
Thanks
Water Displacement 40 aka WD40 is something TG's pick up on early on in training. I would completely saturate my dive knife and UDT Actuator prior to inspections and ocean swims when I went through the basic school. WD40 doesn't make for a great lube but will resist salt water for an evolution. WTBS- I can probably count on 1 hand the number of times I have actually submerged a real weapon in salt H2O then fired it (some weps fair better than others) otherwise it has been with a "rubber ducky" and in a training capacity. An SDV Guy would be the best test case for prolonged submerged weapons usage. For many years the Smith and Wesson 686 served as the premier DIVE/OTB pistol, then came MK23, the MK24 is probably as capable as the MK23 it replaced and the polymer HK45's are without a doubt superior to the SIG P226 for Dive Operations from a rust resistant stand point. Some long guns do better than others and some are dry bagged along with sensitive electronics. A post op fresh water rinse of all gear is SOP.
If there was a need for a handgun outside the military, that was to be submerged in salt H2O, a stainless Smith and Wesson would be my first choice. The 686 had a very good track record all the way back to the 1980's with NSW and these guns are inexpensive/easily replaced work horses. The HKP9 was long gone before I started my military tenure but it was said to be fragile in comparison to the 686.
If it is not a cost issue and you had to have a pistol any of the HK45's to include the USP45 Series would be my first choice to COMBAT DIVE. The 45C really is the Quintessential UDT to Recce Pistol in my opinion..and one of the wisest pistol procurements NSW has ever made. It doesn't have the best trigger but is build like a German Tank. If diving is your bread & butter skill set I don't imagine you would settle for anything less than the MK24 in contemporary times.
Do not expect a pistol or any other firearm to have a very long service life if it is to be dove frequently in salt H2O. Salt water is not kind to steel or any other metal for that matter.
Time will tell if we DIVE the G19's. Personally I conceptualize the G19 as a secondary in an assault role. Be that CQC, Land warfare, SOUC/urban based warfare, VBSS, PSD, or plain clothes work. For Combat Diving & Recce I would personally opt for the MK24 with a suppressor.
How could you argue with such wisdom as....
"A polymer frame doesn't suck the heat as much from the shooters hand vs a metal frame thus effecting the shooters performance.
-Glocks can be fired under water."
I'm glad you guys are on this site, and ID'd so everybody knows who is bullshitting or not.
As far as the G19...if a guy decides he doesn't like it as well, is he free to field what he wants? Or must everyone go G19? I don't shoot Glocks very well, and I'm not sure why. It's not because I don't like them either. But because of this, I can see where a guy might want to have something different.
Just curious. Thanks for y'alls time contributing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Guys can't just "shoot what they want." I will not confirm or deny that guys haven't taken personal guns "down range" as every CoC is different.
I will say that having compatible weapon systems is part of mission planning. Being able to share mags, parts, and ammo among a relatively small group of men can make or break a mission.
I will not preach that Glocks or any other pistol brand is the perfect gun. Honestly, I am one of those 1911 GOVT Model die hards that shoot that pistol better than any other. A lot of that has to do with the ergo's and "comfort." In today's battle space however the 1911 doesn't have a place on the battlefield for a plethora of reasons.
There are much bigger hurdles a guy must overcome than how "comfortable" a particular weapon feels. The basic principles are the same and execution is what is required not "comfort." Any operator can become proficient with today's quality pistol be it SIG, HK, or Glock. You get what you give. With access to weapons and all the ammo you could shoot there really isn't an excuse to not become proficient with a Glock or any other issued firearm.
Can't speak for NSW, but SF was definitely like that. Some of us had an interest in weapons that went beyond just knowing how to use them. Other guys focused on parachuting or water ops or clandestine photography or whatever. Everybody could make stuff work, but not everybody could hold forth on the finer points of 1911 slide stop checkering pattern variations. And that was good--there was just too much shit to do and too much stuff to know for everyone to be an SME on weapons.
That said, I'm deeply grateful that Rana and the other NSW types are keeping us up to date.
Okie John
There is a small group of Team Guys who also double as "gun geeks." Most if not all Team Guys are in it for the team lifestyle, they like the physical and mental challenges that come with the job. Some of us are fortunate enough to also have our interest/hobbies carry over into our work. I know guys who love to jump. They will spend there own dime to buy high speed civilian rigs and jump on their own time. I also know of a lot of men in NSW who do not own a single personal gun and never shoot on their own time. The same could be said about many people who serve in the military.
Are there many in the NSW community who don't know much about firearms beyond what is needed for work? I was an 03 in the USMC and though everyone knew the weapon systems they needed to, and most had a general interest in guns, there were plenty who talked out their ass, didnt know about internal, external, amd terminal ballistics, etc, or even if they knew how a .50 cal worked probably didn't understand exactly what every part of the bolt they just took apart did... Just curious given it is a much more intimate part of your job, you guys get more trigger time, etc.
Thanks
Mike
Sent from my cell phone with a tiny keyboard and large thumbs...
As previously stated most guys aren't "gun geeks" in NSW. Safe Handling, economic manipulation, and combat effectiveness with a weapon are the primary focus.
I have a close friend that works in the Hollywood Weapons Movie Prop industry. He is easily the most knowledgable weapons guy I know, he is a professional gunsmith and can build/modify just about any type of gun in existence. He literally knows everything about guns. I can't stump this guy.. That does not mean he could spend a great majority of his young adult life preparing his mind and body to do live fire IADS as a SEAL Operator in "pick your location" man handling a MK48 Belt Fed Machine-gun slinging lead in a coordinated effort to fend off (re: eliminate) our nations enemies. One does not translate to the other. While weapons knowledge is learned it certainly isn't as paramount as martial skill.
Guys can't just "shoot what they want." I will not confirm or deny that guys haven't taken personal guns "down range" as every CoC is different.
I will say that having compatible weapon systems is part of mission planning. Being able to share mags, parts, and ammo among a relatively small group of men can make or break a mission.
I will not preach that Glocks or any other pistol brand is the perfect gun. Honestly, I am one of those 1911 GOVT Model die hards that shoot that pistol better than any other. A lot of that has to do with the ergo's and "comfort." In today's battle space however the 1911 doesn't have a place on the battlefield for a plethora of reasons.
There are much bigger hurdles a guy must overcome than how "comfortable" a particular weapon feels. The basic principles are the same and execution is what is required not "comfort." Any operator can become proficient with today's quality pistol be it SIG, HK, or Glock. You get what you give. With access to weapons and all the ammo you could shoot there really isn't an excuse to not become proficient with a Glock or any other issued firearm.
Greatly detailed answer. Thank you, Rana.
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Now to see if Big Army follows suit. Thanks for the update Rana.
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The army's modular battle pistol cluster is ongoing. They're chewing up all those millions JSOC and NSW are saving us... :)
Doc. Holiday
12-28-15, 12:24
Thanks for taking time to answer everyone's questions Rana and keeping us all updated. Thanks for your service.
Thanks for taking time to answer everyone's questions Rana and keeping us all updated. Thanks for your service.
I echo this sentiment. Posts like Rana's help make this community one of the best out there - irrespective of subject matter.
Thank you once again, Rana, for both your service to this country and your willingness to share information with this community.
Like Rana said the VAST majority of SOF I know are not gun guys, their knowledge extending to what is required to do their job. There are a very select few who actually dive into it outside of work and do it as a hobby. Just because someone does the job for a living does not mean they are some firearms expert. I actually pull huge amounts of knowledge from people I know outside my community. Guys like George Gardner of GA Precision, Steve Morrison, Chuck Rogers, Jason Burton, the Nightforce reps, etc. I'm just a knuckle dragger, my job does not require an engineering degree so I go to the people with many more years in that arena than I.
For work you are limited to issued equipment for liability and like Rana said, for interchangeability. You would also always have that one guy who pieced together some hodgepodge weapon with his "infinite" wisdom (sarcasm) and then when it malfunctions and someone dies there would be a lawsuit. One way to ensure at least a baseline level of quality is to use weapons inspected regularly and purchased through the proper channels with a full support system in place.
I guess everyone should buy those Sig 226 Mark 25 before they run out LOL It say a lot about the Glock 19 when special operation teams switch to the Glock. I know they spend a lot of time testing the weapons to death before they make a decision like that. I have carried a Glock for years. I can say it is my go to handgun.
Hipster Glock owners will be saying "I had a G19 before the SEALs made it cool".
They picked a great pistol but the "It's what the SEALs use" comments on GT, TOS and other places is going to be insane.
Hipster Glock owners will be saying "I had a G19 before the SEALs made it cool".
They picked a great pistol but the "It's what the SEALs use" comments on GT, TOS and other places is going to be insane.
why not? i mean it's a ubiquitous platform and this is a vote of confidence from people who take this stuff seriously. with the advent of the xc1, the g19 is the perfect carry gun. it's a great pistol. i guess people should be careful not to think that carrying one makes you a navy seal, but if it's good enough for the seals, it's good enough for me.
Hipster Glock owners will be saying "I had a G19 before the SEALs made it cool".
They picked a great pistol but the "It's what the SEALs use" comments on GT, TOS and other places is going to be insane.
I wanted to own a Glock 19 because MORSOC went to them [emoji12] All kidding aside, I want a G19 because everyone who owns a compact Glock tells me the same thing, it is a good compromise gun. It shoot like a fullsize gun yet small enough to conceal. I can see G19 and G23 sales going up because everyone wants the gun of the seals lol
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why not? i mean it's a ubiquitous platform and this is a vote of confidence from people who take this stuff seriously. with the advent of the xc1, the g19 is the perfect carry gun. it's a great pistol. i guess people should be careful not to think that carrying one makes you a navy seal, but if it's good enough for the seals, it's good enough for me.
I wanted to own a Glock 19 because MORSOC went to them [emoji12] All kidding aside, I want a G19 because everyone who owns a compact Glock tells me the same thing, it is a good compromise gun. It shoot like a fullsize gun yet small enough to conceal. I can see G19 and G23 sales going up because everyone wants the gun of the seals lol
Hmm...brings to mind something that someone once wrote....
Seals lay around on the beach and eat fish. SEALs go to nice locations at all hours and burn shit down.
hotrodder636
12-29-15, 22:00
WTBS there are a lot of interesting things coming down the pipeline and a lot of things going away because they just don't provide much relevance; or said items perform poorly in the field.
Very interested if any further information can come from this comment.
Most importantly, thank you Rana for sharing all the info. Go Navy!
The G19 is a great compromise, but the G17 has a more natural grip.
The G19 is a great versatile pistol and so is the sig 226. I can see the cost savings benefit though.
Now to my dumb questions Rana. Do you think they'll also issue g17 mags too for extra capacity, maybe even the 33 round mags? Also, and this may seem silly, but I ask because I just don't know and am curious. Would there be a role for a select fire version of then G19? But for a few simple design changes from glock, a g19 can be made like a g18. Or has the time for machine pistols come and gone, or if it ever filled a niche in the first place?
The G19 is a great versatile pistol and so is the sig 226. I can see the cost savings benefit though.
Now to my dumb questions Rana. Do you think they'll also issue g17 mags too for extra capacity, maybe even the 33 round mags? Also, and this may seem silly, but I ask because I just don't know and am curious. Would there be a role for a select fire version of then G19? But for a few simple design changes from glock, a g19 can be made like a g18. Or has the time for machine pistols come and gone, or if it ever filled a niche in the first place?
I think 15rd mags will remain standard. If the +2 base plates, 17rd, and 33rd mags are in circulation they will probably be an open purchase item not standard. About the only need I can see for the non standard magazines is for those who do work where they are relegated to a "pistol only" and they don't have a long gun readily accessible (RE: plain clothes urban work). For the "door kicker" side of the house the whole idea is to streamline not add more to the individual kit. Adding more to go with the G19 is a move away from it being an efficient tool. Personally, I'd carry another M4 mag before I would put a 33rd Glock Mag on my kit. A 33rd Glock Mag would also scream "amateur" in NSW circles, at least in an assault role.
Select fire pistols have no place in NSW or USSOCOM for that matter. A machine pistol goes completely away from SOF doctrine- "make every round count." We train to make every round count and train like we fight. For the most part "full auto" is just stupid. About the only place you will see full auto weapons used is with belt fed machine guns, and those serve as force multipliers/area weapons in a very specific capacity/scenerio. In all reality there is not even a real need for select fire rifles in 99.99% of real world usage. There is a better chance of winning the lottery than flipping a primary to AUTO in a real world combative scenario.
SOF does not over estimate the effectiveness of our pistols in combat. In fact the opposite is true. We train to transition to and from a primary to a pistol and get the primary back "online" ASAP to be truly effective in a fight. Pistols are that tool that are better to have and not need than to need and not have, which pretty much sums up how NSW employs them.
I wanted to own a Glock 19 because MORSOC went to them [emoji12] All kidding aside, I want a G19 because everyone who owns a compact Glock tells me the same thing, it is a good compromise gun. It shoot like a fullsize gun yet small enough to conceal. I can see G19 and G23 sales going up because everyone wants the gun of the seals lol
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Not to derail - but why don't you shorten the grip on your 17 (assuming you have one)? 'Generally' speaking, the larger issue in concealment between the two (17 v. 19) is grip length. Within reason I always opt for the longer sight radius. There are numerous threads on this, on the one I'm linking to, hit page 3, posts 23 through 27 for the tutoral - https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?35712-shortening-Glock-17-grip-to-19-length/page3
Sorry for the drift - back on topic.
The Glock is an excellent choice for so many reasons, IMO one of them is the fact that with an initial 2 hour block (to get reps) the individual can strip and replace any parts in the field, plus the parts can be carried in a skoal can and a cigar tube - or a fancy pvc pipe.
Great posts in this thread....especially Rana's.....and thank you for your service...
I think 15rd mags will remain standard. If the +2 base plates, 17rd, and 33rd mags are in circulation they will probably be an open purchase item not standard. About the only need I can see for the non standard magazines is for those who do work where they are relegated to a "pistol only" and they don't have a long gun readily accessible (RE: plain clothes urban work). For the "door kicker" side of the house the whole idea is to streamline not add more to the individual kit. Adding more to go with the G19 is a move away from it being an efficient tool. Personally, I'd carry another M4 mag before I would put a 33rd Glock Mag on my kit. A 33rd Glock Mag would also scream "amateur" in NSW circles, at least in an assault role.
Select fire pistols have no place in NSW or USSOCOM for that matter. A machine pistol goes completely away from SOF doctrine- "make every round count." We train to make every round count and train like we fight. For the most part "full auto" is just stupid. About the only place you will see full auto weapons used is with belt fed machine guns, and those serve as force multipliers/area weapons in a very specific capacity/scenerio. In all reality there is not even a real need for select fire rifles in 99.99% of real world usage. There is a better chance of winning the lottery than flipping a primary to AUTO in a real world combative scenario.
SOF does not over estimate the effectiveness of our pistols in combat. In fact the opposite is true. We train to transition to and from a primary to a pistol and get the primary back "online" ASAP to be truly effective in a fight. Pistols are that tool that are better to have and not need than to need and not have, which pretty much sums up how NSW employs them.
Every time you buy a 33 rd mag, a liberal dies, and a kitten is born.
I think 15rd mags will remain standard. If the +2 base plates, 17rd, and 33rd mags are in circulation they will probably be an open purchase item not standard. About the only need I can see for the non standard magazines is for those who do work where they are relegated to a "pistol only" and they don't have a long gun readily accessible (RE: plain clothes urban work). For the "door kicker" side of the house the whole idea is to streamline not add more to the individual kit. Adding more to go with the G19 is a move away from it being an efficient tool. Personally, I'd carry another M4 mag before I would put a 33rd Glock Mag on my kit. A 33rd Glock Mag would also scream "amateur" in NSW circles, at least in an assault role.
Select fire pistols have no place in NSW or USSOCOM for that matter. A machine pistol goes completely away from SOF doctrine- "make every round count." We train to make every round count and train like we fight. For the most part "full auto" is just stupid. About the only place you will see full auto weapons used is with belt fed machine guns, and those serve as force multipliers/area weapons in a very specific capacity/scenerio. In all reality there is not even a real need for select fire rifles in 99.99% of real world usage. There is a better chance of winning the lottery than flipping a primary to AUTO in a real world combative scenario.
SOF does not over estimate the effectiveness of our pistols in combat. In fact the opposite is true. We train to transition to and from a primary to a pistol and get the primary back "online" ASAP to be truly effective in a fight. Pistols are that tool that are better to have and not need than to need and not have, which pretty much sums up how NSW employs them.
Excellent explanations, I appreciate the response. I never served in a combat role when I was active duty. Only qualified with the M9 a few times, and never trained with it or on any other platform. That said, I definitely see the benefit of keeping equipment and weight down especially when you have a lot of other gear to haul.
The G19 is a great compromise, but the G17 has a more natural grip.
For sure. I have small hands, and even I find the G19 grip to be a tad short. The G17 (I'm talking Gen 4's here) is perfect.
Sorry if this has already been answered, but is NSW going to Gen3 or Gen4 G19? Any reasons given to prefer one over the other?
Thanks!
Cincinnatus
01-02-16, 01:27
Sorry if this has already been answered, but is NSW going to Gen3 or Gen4 G19? Any reasons given to prefer one over the other?
Thanks!
Gen3, because it's already in the chain.
I think 15rd mags will remain standard. If the +2 base plates, 17rd, and 33rd mags are in circulation they will probably be an open purchase item not standard. About the only need I can see for the non standard magazines is for those who do work where they are relegated to a "pistol only" and they don't have a long gun readily accessible (RE: plain clothes urban work). For the "door kicker" side of the house the whole idea is to streamline not add more to the individual kit. Adding more to go with the G19 is a move away from it being an efficient tool. Personally, I'd carry another M4 mag before I would put a 33rd Glock Mag on my kit. A 33rd Glock Mag would also scream "amateur" in NSW circles, at least in an assault role.
Select fire pistols have no place in NSW or USSOCOM for that matter. A machine pistol goes completely away from SOF doctrine- "make every round count." We train to make every round count and train like we fight. For the most part "full auto" is just stupid. About the only place you will see full auto weapons used is with belt fed machine guns, and those serve as force multipliers/area weapons in a very specific capacity/scenerio. In all reality there is not even a real need for select fire rifles in 99.99% of real world usage. There is a better chance of winning the lottery than flipping a primary to AUTO in a real world combative scenario.
SOF does not over estimate the effectiveness of our pistols in combat. In fact the opposite is true. We train to transition to and from a primary to a pistol and get the primary back "online" ASAP to be truly effective in a fight. Pistols are that tool that are better to have and not need than to need and not have, which pretty much sums up how NSW employs them.
This is one of the best posts I have read on this site. It is certainly one of the most realistic assessments of the role of a handgun in use by an assaulter. Thank you again for your time, information, and service.
I agree that this is one of the most informative threads that I have read on here in a long time. That and it didn't turn into a bashing of one platform to the other. I will gladly admit that I learned a few things that I did not know.
Very informative thread. I'm picking up a G19TB and I'm going Gen 3 as a tribute to those who took down OBL. Plus it will compliment my G26 nicely. Was split between a G17 or G19, this split the vote.
Does somebody know if the G19s from NSW will be marked like the MK25 with an anchor and or code Label ?
Does somebody know if the G19s from NSW will be marked like the MK25 with an anchor and or code Label ?
Advanced bar code labels are standard on all U.S. Military firearms. The Glocks are supposed to be coming from either existing SOCCOM inventory or off the SOCCOM contract rather than a NSW specific contract so I would think no anchor.
Now Gen4 G19 is designated as Mk 27, while Gen4 G26 is Mk 26.
http://nsn-now.com/1005016587261
http://nsn-now.com/1005016581930
I am jealous of their pricing and the fact that theirs come with six mags. x.x
Looks the MOS version too. Dang that's awesome.
Beat Trash
02-06-17, 11:38
MOS with a threaded barrel. Add a can and a RMR and that would be a rather efficient package.
MOS with a threaded barrel. Add a can and a RMR and that would be a rather efficient package.
Couldn't that be said for any of the quality polymer wonder pistols out there?
Couldn't that be said for any of the quality polymer wonder pistols out there?
Not really, Glock seems to have the military weapon durability thing down pat. 30+ years of experience since first adopted by the Austrian Army. JMHO
Milled is more efficient than MOS. But when youre buying in bulk it makes sense to get things that someone might use, like the MOS and threaded barrel, even if the majority never use it.
Couldn't that be said for any of the quality polymer wonder pistols out there?
Yeah, maybe in 30 years when they have the track record that Glock does.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-07-17, 00:00
In that case they need to go with the 1911! Merica!
Milled is more efficient than MOS.
Except it's cut for a single optic (or in better shops, a single unit of a single optic). When the current generation of optics is outdated then failing and not supported, there will be a lot of people will milled slides suddenly finding themselves with nothing but a hole and iron sights.
Milled definitely has advantages, but the MOS-style system is vastly superior for the long term where plates can just be swapped out and redesigned to accommodate new styles of optics hitting the market.
Except it's cut for a single optic (or in better shops, a single unit of a single optic). When the current generation of optics is outdated then failing and not supported, there will be a lot of people will milled slides suddenly finding themselves with nothing but a hole and iron sights.
Milled definitely has advantages, but the MOS-style system is vastly superior for the long term where plates can just be swapped out and redesigned to accommodate new styles of optics hitting the market.
1.) assuming trijicon has not already set the industry standard for base dimensions
2.) assuming you can't just mill out a larger area, fill in the screw holes.
3. assuming you can't just buy another slide.
It's really not a big deal.
Like I said it makes sense for .mil
I don't want to OT Rana's thread further , will just say i think you have years and years before the rmr is no longer supported. My point was they are buying something to fit everyone, not necessarily best use setup.
Digital_Damage
02-07-17, 10:43
Not really, Glock seems to have the military weapon durability thing down pat. 30+ years of experience since first adopted by the Austrian Army. JMHO
Considering several of their recent submissions(FBI, ARMY) have shown issues I don't think anyone is infallible.
whatthepuck
02-07-17, 17:57
Now Gen4 G19 is designated as Mk 27, while Gen4 G26 is Mk 26.
http://nsn-now.com/1005016587261
http://nsn-now.com/1005016581930
Why couldn't the g26 be the mk27 and g19 the mk26? How gloriously confusing that could have been.
Instaurator
02-08-17, 00:19
Now Gen4 G19 is designated as Mk 27, while Gen4 G26 is Mk 26.
http://nsn-now.com/1005016587261
http://nsn-now.com/1005016581930
Does this mean when people ask me what I carry I can say a Mk18 and a Mk27???? :lol:
Im confused by all the mk's. What was the pistol designation before? Mk28? And if there are Mk48 and Mk262 designations why are they just now using Mk26 and Mk27.
Just remembered it wa Mk25... that kind of makes sense now... will the NSW glocks have a nifty little anchor now though?
RAM Engineer
02-08-17, 16:45
Just remembered it wa Mk25... that kind of makes sense now... will the NSW glocks have a nifty little anchor now though?
And a little square bar code. How do you even get one of those to stick to a textured polymer frame?
Evel Baldgui
02-09-17, 13:16
will the NSW glocks have a nifty little anchor now though?
That would double the price of the pistol :-) !
Doc. Holiday
02-09-17, 14:01
I would like to see how high of an increase the sales of G19's have been sold since the announcement came.
Instaurator
02-09-17, 14:20
Its probably a small increase. Lots of highly intelligent and skilled people have been preaching the Glock 19 sermon for years now, so my guess is that its always one of Glock's top sellers on the civilian market. The three largest police departments in the US all use the 19, in addition to other pistols, and JSOC has been using it for several years if I recall. Its a known and proven pistol. I can only imagine how many times someone has walked into their local gunshop and asked the guy behind the counter what pistol to buy and "Glock 19" is the answer. But without a doubt, the SEAL fanboys will definitely have to buy a 26 and a 19 now.
Doc. Holiday
02-09-17, 14:59
Oh ya, I know that the G19 is the highest selling Glock and has been for years. Was just curious how much flex has been in sales since.
Most curious, a G26? why a G26? For the military?
Instaurator
02-09-17, 15:27
Most curious, a G26? why a G26? For the military?
No clue. But I suspect the reasoning behind it is for use during secret squirrel/plain clothes stuff.
Most curious, a G26? why a G26? For the military?
No clue. But I suspect the reasoning behind it is for use during secret squirrel/plain clothes stuff.
Did you guys read the thread?
Check in on this thread from time to time, it's been going on for a year now. I obviously missed that information.
Dave Williams
02-10-17, 12:00
I missed that the 19s were MOS and that 26s were included.
Instaurator
02-10-17, 15:29
Sorry Boss, I didn't see any mention of Glock 26 either. I was mostly paying attention to Rana's comments but I might have missed one.
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