View Full Version : Canting pistol while shooting one handed?
Jay Cunningham
08-08-08, 07:57
How many teach/have been trained to cant their pistol inboard during one handed shooting? I don't mean gangsta, I mean a slight cant. Pros/cons/ thoughts?
Littlelebowski
08-08-08, 08:00
I do it naturally and it seems to work for me.
Robb Jensen
08-08-08, 08:01
The cant is fine for 15yds and closer big targets. For small targets at distance you should NOT cant the gun.
I cant the gun slightly SHO.
I cant the gun significantly WHO.
I'm right-hand/right-eye dominant. That is a factor.
Unlike gotm4, I do it at all ranges. There are POA/POI issues to deal with, but they tend to be minor in comparison to the other challenges involved. However, there are arguments for both approaches.
I've found that a small cant helps mitigate recoil in one handed shooting. It works better for me then no canting.
I have seen people shoot excellently in both fashions. Being only an average pistol shot, I look for every advantage I can, and canting helps me. Soo....
The support side cant is just a natural position for me. It makes the slightly unnatural act of shooting support side a little less akward.
Failure2Stop
08-08-08, 09:10
For Combative Marksmanship- I don't cant the gun- I allow the gun to cant.
Since one-handed firing puts a premium on grip, I do everything possible to assist grip strength and recoil management.
For bulls-eye shooting the gun is as level as possible.
CarlosDJackal
08-08-08, 09:21
I cant mine based on the way my hand naturally does so when I point at something. Contrary to popular belief, it's not really an issue of recoil management. But it's more on how your own body works.
FWIW, I have had students whose hands do not cant when they point because of years of Martial Arts Training. So they do better without canting the handgun. YMMV..
I cant mine all the time. Right handed, left eye dominant. It just works best for me.
John_Wayne777
08-08-08, 09:33
I tend to cant the gun a little when shooting strong hand only, more when using my weak hand. With the weak hand I'm trying to get the sights into line with my dominant eye.
I cant as well, but like to call the technique the "half homey".
I just took a class last weekend that had a lot of strong and weak hand only shooting. I had been instructed in the past to use a slight cant, as it makes your wrist line up more naturally with your one extended arm to form a straight line. In this class I found that the cant came more naturally as the day went on and the more complicated the drills got. By the end of the day we were doing strong hand only box drills on the move with strong hand only reloads and by then I wasn't thinking about the gun's position at all - it was just going there. It works well for me.
I cant mine all the time. Right handed, left eye dominant. It just works best for me.
same here
I was only taught it as a weak-hand technique to bring the sights in line with my dominant eye. Other than that, it's been strictly a shield technique.
The idea of canting is due to it being the natural angle of your arm. Just throw a punch and that is the natural cant.
It also helps with absorbing muzzle rise and recoil since you have better leverage that way.
When I do it I also bend my elbow more to help absorb everything.
I also have a natural cant on my both strong and support hand when i practice one handed shooting. its just a matter of practice.
RogerinTPA
08-08-08, 16:38
I was only taught it as a weak-hand technique to bring the sights in line with my dominant eye.
Same here, but I also noticed I do it during strong hand, while in an advanced tactical pistol course a few weeks ago as well.
I remember Larry Vickers saying that he did not like canting the gun when firing one-handed since it is at odds with the way you normally hold the gun and align the sights.
Canting the gun a bit one handed, and you'll notice bit better controlled hold.
As you cant the gun, you introduce more muscles into the package, which in turn maeks for a better stable, stronger and secure shooting platform.
Don't over cant the gun, somewhere between stright up and 45 degrees is good.
I was taught by LAV since we live in a vertical world to keep your gun vertical when shooting.
John_Wayne777
08-09-08, 14:17
I remember Larry Vickers saying that he did not like canting the gun when firing one-handed since it is at odds with the way you normally hold the gun and align the sights.
If I remember correctly during the Advanced class in July his exact words were: "You guys need to stop that homeboy ****."
:D
I don't know why, but canting the gun (slightly...I'm not talking the full-on gangbanger sideways hold) "feels" more natural to me, especially weak handed. I'm sure Mr. Vickers will try to beat that out of me in the upcoming pistol class.
Robb Jensen
08-09-08, 14:36
If I remember correctly during the Advanced class in July his exact words were: "You guys need to stop that homeboy ****."
:D
I don't know why, but canting the gun (slightly...I'm not talking the full-on gangbanger sideways hold) "feels" more natural to me, especially weak handed. I'm sure Mr. Vickers will try to beat that out of me in the upcoming pistol class.
Try getting your left elbow up higher than your right one. It's Iso but just a little modified. I get my left elbow up a little higher than my right and I get my left hand as high on the gun as I can with my left thumb resting on the frame. I know lots of people teach against contacting the frame, it works for me. The higher left arm thing takes a little to get used to it but do some dry practice coming out of the holster indexing the target, align the sights and prep the trigger but don't dryfire the gun. Do this 40 or 50 times a day for a week and it'll feel natural and the gun will be level.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/cycle1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/robb-5.jpg
HolyRoller
08-09-08, 14:55
For Combative Marksmanship- I don't cant the gun- I allow the gun to cant.
:cool: That's what everybody else has been MEANING to say. Some very tippy-top bullseye shooters do the same for small, distant targets, because for them the more natural point of aim adds more accuracy than the cockeyed sight picture takes away.
But then, I wasn't aware that LAV was so big on keeping the gun vertical. Will have to look into that.
gotm4, this is as good a time as any to mention that stringing pix horizontally makes those of us with normal-sized screens have to scroll endlessly back and forth to read text on that whole page, which totally drives me up the wall. I've seen a mod at one other forum go so far as to edit members' posts to correct this.
Robb Jensen
08-09-08, 14:57
:cool: That's what everybody else has been MEANING to say. Some very tippy-top bullseye shooters do the same for small, distant targets, because for them the more natural point of aim adds more accuracy than the cockeyed sight picture takes away.
But then, I wasn't aware that LAV was so big on keeping the gun vertical. Will have to look into that.
gotm4, this is as good a time as any to mention that stringing pix horizontally makes those of us with normal-sized screens have to scroll endlessly back and forth to read text on that whole page, which totally drives me up the wall. I've seen a mod at one other forum go so far as to edit members' posts to correct this.
I think I fixed it.
I don't cant the gun. I used to when shooting support hand only but have worked on not doing it. If you have any trigger manipulation issues, canting the gun will make your hits even worse.
On the other side there's some very experienced shooters that cant weak handed as it naturally positions the sights in alignment of their dominant eye. Whatever works for you I guess.
HolyRoller
08-09-08, 15:31
I think I fixed it.
Wow--you did--thanks!
More about canting--when shooting two-handed left-handed, as with a BUG carried on and drawn from the left side, at close range under time pressure I let the gun cant naturally to the right, and lay my left ear on my left shoulder to line up my very dominant right eye with the sights. Given longer range and more time, I'll bring the gun vertical. I'll go live-fire in a little bit and see how it goes.
theJanitor
08-09-08, 16:18
i cant the gun a bit, weak handed only. i'm right handed, left eye blind, and consequently right eye dominant:(
I just took a class last weekend that had a lot of strong and weak hand only shooting. I had been instructed in the past to use a slight cant, as it makes your wrist line up more naturally with your one extended arm to form a straight line. In this class I found that the cant came more naturally as the day went on and the more complicated the drills got. By the end of the day we were doing strong hand only box drills on the move with strong hand only reloads and by then I wasn't thinking about the gun's position at all - it was just going there. It works well for me.
+1...
I also slightly cant when shooting two-handed...more cant when I shoot one-handed.
Only two reasons would I teach intentionally canting, cross eye dominance and a tight position of retention to the outboard actually so cycling an auto didn't induce a malf. That being said, for defensive work inside of 25yds I probably wouldn't worry about 5 to maaaybe 10 degrees canting. As has been mentioned the musculature and physiology of the average person will allow more strength when canted, detriments: having to train it out when you apply it to certain situations. Simple answer, train it out to begin with. That being said, do i cant? yea, seems like a few degrees :p doubt it's even 5 though. I've got a funny barrel chest though and usually lock up in a modified weaver with my right bicep up against my right pectoral and my left triceps tight to my left lat. One big issue I could see in thinking about this, is when the gun recoils if your canted your driving across the human body instead of up and down it decreasing your area of target and hence your probability of hitting something on subsequent quick follow up shots. Multiple shots driving you off the side of the body. Now that I think about this I'm thinking this alone would make me want to stay true as possible to vertical. Funny how the simplest things can drive you to the deepest revelations.
Another analogy is this(not exactly 100% apples to apples true but it helps convey the point), truing your aimpoint to vertical and trying to sight it in and subsequently use it. Can it be done if cocked, sure, if I wanted to calculate angles and true measurements in my freaking head on the fly. Oooorrrr, I can just true it up vertical and do it the quick simple way that works every time the simple way. Also, the way with the highest odds of working under pressure. ;) Think this came out like I meant it. ;p
I just finished another two-day pistol class. Prior to the class I knew where my problems would arise and of course they surfaced on TD2 when one handed shooting drills appeared. I SUCKED at shooting strong and weak hand only. The instructor had me cant the pistol both strong and weak handed, a little bit more with the weak hand, and I saw immediate worth the price of admission results.:eek:
I suck no more. I'm canting and I’m getting the hits!
copperfield
Another analogy is this(not exactly 100% apples to apples true but it helps convey the point), truing your aimpoint to vertical and trying to sight it in and subsequently use it. Can it be done if cocked, sure, if I wanted to calculate angles and true measurements in my freaking head on the fly.
I know you said the analogy wasn't 100% so don't take this as crashing down on your post, but ...
The analogy is a bad one.
Offset on carbine (red dot over bore) is drastically greater than offset on a pistol (front sight over bore).
The ranges we care about for carbine shooting make offset and trajectory much more important than typical handgun shooting.
Beyond typical handgun ranges, most shooters lack the ability, in terms of hold, sight alignment, and trigger press, to break shots accurately enough that the difference in trajectory is going to matter.
Beyond typical handgun ranges, most handguns (and ammo) are so much less accurate than carbines that the POI shift from canting would be almost invisible.
Yea, it was very late and I really wanted to wrap it up which is why I stated that not being 100%. Thanks for summarizing some of the issues though I which I didn't have time to think about. I was trying to think of a quick analogy to help those that might need it, possibly not being as succesful as I'd have liked/hoped. ;p
Jay Cunningham
08-11-08, 14:35
I shot this weekend both SHO and WHO and I canted the pistol both times and achieved very good results. I cant the pistol more WHO, that's for sure.
I find that when I shoot with 2 hands, I get see the gun recoiling mostly up and down. When shooting with one hand held verticaly, I see the sights recoiling outward at around 2 or 10 oclock.
The first instructor to teach me to cant the gun for one handed shooting taught us to experiment and find the angle of cant that allows the sights to lift close to vertical and get back on target most quickly. For me, that is about 20-30 degrees SHO and 30-45 degrees WHO. I switch eyes when switching hands so eye dominance is not a factor.
Subsequent Instructors discussed the muscle/bone advantages of canting and even suggested dropping the non-shooting side foot back to provide rear support (Stressfire Shotgun position?) Following this advice, I have never had any limp-wrist issues with any one handed shooting.
For me, the cant works every time and has no negatives.
Gringop
Try shooting while walking towards your non-dominant side. For me the one handed and canted technique plays a great role here. It is hard to do a two handed grip and move laterally quickly plus easily.
Would I be more accurate two handed? Sure, but I think for shooting on the move with a pistol we are not going to be working with rifle distances.
...have been trained to cant their pistol inboard during one handed shooting?...
<---- Raises hand.
I find that it works well during training/qualification for one handed courses of fire (pistol).
YMMV.
PRGGodfather
08-15-08, 01:49
<---- Raises hand.
I find that it works well during training/qualification for one handed courses of fire (pistol).
YMMV.
+1. It works, and is usually a natural alignment...
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