View Full Version : Dumbass move of the day: stripped hex head bolt on my DD slim keymod `
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-13-15, 20:35
Hey guys.
To install my DD keymod Slim rai I shaved the FSB down on my 6720. After installing the rail it appeared to fit well. I then torqued everything down but somehow stripped the lower left bolt head. And of course, it is very slightly touching the FSB on the right side, so I need to take it off. Bonus---locktite.
So, anybody have any tips?
I would try Bob Smith Un-Cure first for the Loctite, and then try to remove it with a stripped screw extractor.
titsonritz
12-13-15, 21:13
EZ out (http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Out-Screw-Extractor-Set/dp/B0002SDAIY)
Throw it away and start over.
No, post pics, and we should be able to help.
Slvr Surfr
12-14-15, 20:17
Try a torx bit that will fit the hex bolt head, after you use the un-cure / heat.
I had to drill out a stripped screw on a rail adapter a while back, I used a new hardened drill bit, a drop of oil and it cut like butter. I then installed a new keymod fastener to complete the repair.
You guys need to look at what he is up against before recommending any drilling. A picture would help you understand. The first thing I would do is get on the phone and order a new flange and screws from DD. Then I would cut the head off of the screw with a cut off wheel not worrying about buggering up the flange. Remove the rail, apply heat to break the loc-tite and remove what's left of the screw with pliers.
Hey guys.
To install my DD keymod Slim rai I shaved the FSB down on my 6720. After installing the rail it appeared to fit well. I then torqued everything down but somehow stripped the lower left bolt head. And of course, it is very slightly touching the FSB on the right side, so I need to take it off. Bonus---locktite.
So, anybody have any tips?
I had good luck with SpeedOut as seen on TV:
https://www.buyspeedout.com/?MID=4455187
I had a high end amp that blew a fuse I had to replace. The tiny screws were soft metal and would strip if I breathed on them wrong. I tried a traditional stripped screw removal set, and no love. On a whim, I tried the SpeedOut product I saw at Home Depot, and it worked. This was 10K worth of high end amp that had dozens of the tiny little screws, a handful of which were stripped, so I was happy when that product actually worked.
Before and after pics would be nice. Once you find a solution with good results, please share it with us. It is only a matter of time before one of us does the same thing.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-16-15, 20:59
I have called DD but they won't return my call. Not blowing me away with their customer service so far.
Averageman
12-16-15, 21:57
EZ out (http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Out-Screw-Extractor-Set/dp/B0002SDAIY)
I'm going to have to go along with the folks asking for a picture on this one.
Removing a damaged fastener can be an easy task or it can be a real difficult one. I can assure you that if it wont come out with heat to breakdown the lock-tite and an EZ out you may want some professional assistance.
Not knowing the condition of the fastener, nor your experiance level with this kind of stuff, it's difficult to give you good advice without sounding like a dick.
I've done quite a bit of this at work and even I know when to call in someone with more experiance than myself.
Soak it in Bob Smith's, Grab the hex bit one size up from said allen bit and hammer it into the slot of the bolt. Grab your favorite driver and unscrew.
You guys need to look at what he is up against before recommending any drilling. A picture would help you understand. The first thing I would do is get on the phone and order a new flange and screws from DD. Then I would cut the head off of the screw with a cut off wheel not worrying about buggering up the flange. Remove the rail, apply heat to break the loc-tite and remove what's left of the screw with pliers.
No one 'recommended drilling', I simply stated how I repaired my stripped keymod screw.
No one 'recommended drilling', I simply stated how I repaired my stripped keymod screw.
Really LOL.... looks like someone needs to take a little time and read slower before telling people what they need to do:rolleyes:
556BlackRifle
12-18-15, 01:34
Soak it in Bob Smith's, Grab the hex bit one size up from said allen bit and hammer it into the slot of the bolt. Grab your favorite driver and unscrew.
This is what I'd do. If the head stripped with the hex bit as described above, try cutting a slot with a dremel cut off disk such that you can use a standard screwdriver blade. Apply heat with a heat gun and see if you can break it free.
Really LOL.... looks like someone needs to take a little time and read slower before telling people what they need to do:rolleyes:
Show me where I told someone what to do. Your avatar speaks volumes.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-19-15, 12:39
I keep forgetting to post pics. But all it is is a picture of a bolt with a slightly rounded hex head hole. But I will get it.
DD is sucking up a storm in the CS department. I have left a few messages now. Woof. I remember H&K used to be excoriated on the net for not sucking people's toes when they called and DD won't even answer.
SilverBullet432
12-19-15, 13:54
You are calling on a Saturday? I hate stripped bolts.. I've always had little success with any method I try. I would love to see your results.
I purchased a small set of pliers from Snap-On Tools about 30 years ago and used them for removing small screws on motorcycle carburetor bowls and other small screws found on engines when nothing else worked. I have also used them to remove firearm screws with stripped heads several times over the years. If you ever run into a situation where you can grip any part of the screw, they are very handy.
The pliers are 4-3/4" long. These are similar to the pliers I purchased. https://store.snapon.com/SearchResults.aspx?q=5cp&IsPartsSearch=0&departmentName=Tool%20Catalog
You can probably find something comparable at Harbor Freight, Sears or an auto parts store.
If you can tap a Torx bit of a certain size into the stripped hole that will bite very well or Dremel an X for a Phillips bit or - for a straight bladed bit then you are on your way.
Make sure you have a good bite.
Go to a drill press and chuck the selected bit into it and put downward pressure into the problem fastener.
This takes two people or three hands.
Heat the stripped fastener if Loktite is used, lower the bit into the stripped fastener with good pressure so it will not slip out, rotate the drill press chuck by hand at the same time as pressure into the fastener to remove it.
DO NOT, DO NOT turn the motor on of the drill press.
Use hands only.
This has been done to remove broken or stripped fasteners for a very long time without harming anything.
The drill press keeps pressure of the fitted bit into the stripped fastener.
When we try to remove the same with your hands the bit rotates or pops out due to not being able to keep enough pressure or force to overcome the torque to remove the said fastener.
A drill press is your friend.
A friend with a drill press is your friend :)
Clarence
Last time I stripped a hex bolt I filled it with epoxy inserted the hex screw let it set over night the unscrewed it the next day.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-19-15, 18:11
Mon and friday
If you can tap a Torx bit of a certain size into the stripped hole that will bite very well or Dremel an X for a Phillips bit or - for a straight bladed bit then you are on your way.
Make sure you have a good bite.
Go to a drill press and chuck the selected bit into it and put downward pressure into the problem fastener.
This takes two people or three hands.
Heat the stripped fastener if Loktite is used, lower the bit into the stripped fastener with good pressure so it will not slip out, rotate the drill press chuck by hand at the same time as pressure into the fastener to remove it.
DO NOT, DO NOT turn the motor on of the drill press.
Use hands only.
This has been done to remove broken or stripped fasteners for a very long time without harming anything.
The drill press keeps pressure of the fitted bit into the stripped fastener.
When we try to remove the same with your hands the bit rotates or pops out due to not being able to keep enough pressure or force to overcome the torque to remove the said fastener.
A drill press is your friend.
A friend with a drill press is your friend :)
Clarence
Or use an impact screwdriver.
You only have ONE shot using an impact device, either it breaks loose or the bit breaks or the stripped fastener strips out more.
Not to mention what the other side of said hand guard will look like after a hefty whack with a hammer.
When I stated using a drill press WITH OUT TURNING THE MOTOR ON is exactly why you do not use a impact driver.
The impact driver only rotates the fastener a very small degree, if it breaks loose but does not continue in rotation as using a drill press with consistant pressure and you rotating it with your hands.
Drill press is the safest and easiest method that I know of.
YMMV
Clarence
This thread is a perfect example of why internet advice should be ignored for the most part! A lot of future "Hall Of Shame" advice here. "A drill press" Either you didn't read the OP's post or you don't have a clue. Take your pick.
GH41;
Do you know what a drill press is and what it is able to do and all of it's features ?
I did not think so.
I read the OP's post but yet no pictures so I have to go by what I believe he is talking about and yes, my answer is still the same.
Use a drill press IN THE MANNER THAT I DESCRIBED, not what you think I described.
OP, please bring your rifle to me and I will remove the said stripped fastener for free.
If I mess anything up I will pay for any damage.
This is so easy.
Clarence
I am tired of the back and forth with you guys that cannot even visualize what the OP's problem is. See you later. Hacks will be hacks!
I am tired of the back and forth with you guys that cannot even visualize what the OP's problem is. See you later. Hacks will be hacks!
"visualize" / perspective...
No pic's...
GH41
Come to my machine shop and will show you things that most cannot imagine what can be done thinking outside the box :)
Clarence
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/19/2cbb6ad8c2992f0db991c59d4ad27299.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/19/b39ef47bff1c425f7bd4e8e4589e2072.jpg
I am assuming this is the rail and that it's one of those 4 hex bolts that screw in towards or away from the receiver. If so, good luck! Those look difficult to get at with standard tools. My usual "go-to" is a torx bit in these situations. I have a torx wrench that looks like an Allan key (L shaped). That might be your best option in this case.
Also, depending on how it would work out, it looks like you could drill the head of the bolt off and use a vice and some grips to get the rest of the bolt out. Both pieces the bolt goes through will not be threaded (only one), so if you drill the head off, the rail should come apart. Either way you need a new bolt.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
titsonritz
12-19-15, 23:05
If you can tap a Torx bit of a certain size into the stripped hole that will bite very well or Dremel an X for a Phillips bit or - for a straight bladed bit then you are on your way.
Make sure you have a good bite.
Go to a drill press and chuck the selected bit into it and put downward pressure into the problem fastener.
This takes two people or three hands.
Heat the stripped fastener if Loktite is used, lower the bit into the stripped fastener with good pressure so it will not slip out, rotate the drill press chuck by hand at the same time as pressure into the fastener to remove it.
DO NOT, DO NOT turn the motor on of the drill press.
Use hands only.
This has been done to remove broken or stripped fasteners for a very long time without harming anything.
The drill press keeps pressure of the fitted bit into the stripped fastener.
When we try to remove the same with your hands the bit rotates or pops out due to not being able to keep enough pressure or force to overcome the torque to remove the said fastener.
A drill press is your friend.
A friend with a drill press is your friend :)
Clarence
First I know what you are saying, I have use a drill press in a similar just not for this specific condition. So I ask you, how do plan to get around the upper receiver than the rail is firmly attached to?
I don't think he knew the position of the bolts. Cut him some slack [emoji39]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
titsonritz
12-19-15, 23:31
"visualize"
Red line is where I would cut through the screw trashing the flange in the process. The rail would be off in 5 minutes at the expense of the flange with little chance of damaging the rifle.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t414/ghchhisc/DD%20Rail_zpsemkcliil.png
Averageman
12-20-15, 07:54
At this point I'm hoping the OP takes it to a professional.
I have done thousands of bolt extractions over the years and without a picture or seeing it in person, here is what I can assure you of; it will only become more difficult the second or third time you attempt it.
Even larger fasteners where you have more to work with can be buggered beyond imagination by a bad attempt.
Now that is a horse of a different color.
I apologize for being a bit rude last night(sorry GH41).
Now back to the OP's problem.
GH41's idea is a pretty good one for plan B.
Looking at the pictures and if it is one of the two lower bolts then I still go back to using a drill press but in a slightly different approach.
With just the upper in hand you will need to make a lower fixture, be it a table or what have you that will slide under the drill press with a hole in it for the barrel to go through and the front of the hand guard lays flat against a wood or steel plate.
My question is if there is enough room for you to chuck a socket extension with the removal bit in place into the drill press and down through the large hole in the center of the drill press table into the stripped fastener with out contacting the upper receiver.(3/8" or 1/4" extension, preferably a 3/8").
You may need to grind the extension or socket a bit but I have a whole bunch of tools that were made for special purposes and never used again :)
This is a two person or more job.(one to hold the receiver steady, one to apply consistent pressure on the drill press handle so the bit does not rotate up and out and one to rotate the drill chuck by hand.
Just a thought.
Good luck to the OP.
Clarence
Apology accepted. If this gap is wide enough he could cut the screw with a thin cutoff wheel and save the flange. Even if it was tight you could favor the flange side with the cut. The damage wouldn't structurally damage the flange but it would have to be touched up and the owner would have to be made aware of the possibility. We both know there are a lot of ways to skin cats! I lean toward the method that exposes me to the least amount of liability even if it is at the customer's expense.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t414/ghchhisc/DD%20Rail%202_zps68nsd0bo.png
At this point I'm hoping the OP takes it to a professional.
I have done thousands of bolt extractions over the years and without a picture or seeing it in person, here is what I can assure you of; it will only become more difficult the second or third time you attempt it.
Even larger fasteners where you have more to work with can be buggered beyond imagination by a bad attempt.
I agree 100%. If he has to ask the question he should leave it to a professional.
Averageman
12-20-15, 10:32
I agree 100%. If he has to ask the question he should leave it to a professional.
Thank You!
pointblank4445
12-20-15, 11:45
Greg,
IF you ever get that bolt out yourself, you can find replacements at Home Depot (or your big box of choice). They are Metric 4x25mm. Obviously I had a problem similar to yours, but I was lucky enough to have enough head that it could be turned out one last time. I prefer socket caps to the factory button head bolts, but they don't leave much clearance on the lower right and can rub on the front take down pin.
Sorry this doesn't help with your current issue.
A word of caution to others:
The DDM4/Lite 3 rails are great, but the smaller (compared to the bolts on the RISII) bolts F'ing suck and are by far the weak point of this design. I recommend to those wanting to use these rails on builds to skip the loctite if they ever want to consider disassembly.
Averageman
12-20-15, 12:10
Greg,
A word of caution to others:
The DDM4/Lite 3 rails are great, but the smaller (compared to the bolts on the RISII) bolts F'ing suck and are by far the weak point of this design. I recommend to those wanting to use these rails on builds to skip the loctite if they ever want to consider disassembly.
I've heard of using a heat gun and also have heard that a soldering iron when the tip is placed inside the fasteners head will heat the shaft enough to melt the lock-tite bond.
What did you use?
pointblank4445
12-20-15, 12:31
I've heard of using a heat gun and also have heard that a soldering iron when the tip is placed inside the fasteners head will heat the shaft enough to melt the lock-tite bond.
What did you use?
For small jobs, I just use a heat gun. However in this case, the problem was not the loctite bond...at least not the primary problem as it didn't make anything easier. Mind you, there is a lot of thread space on these long, narrow bolts to bond to something. The head size of these bolts does not correspond with the torque required to break these bolts loose without heat. Even with heated/gummy loctite residue, I question whether these the heads are robust enough. I've never had these issues on RIS II's.
Anyone who has ever installed these bolt up style rails with a plain allen wrench knows it's a PITA as you only get about a 1/4 throw before you have to re-adjust your wrench...it takes a while. It's not at all hard to strip out the heads on one of these chintzy, little bolts given the funny angles you're working at. There's plenty of opportunity to have the wrench slip an it's game over. One thing I also did these last few times is clean up the threads in the rails. The first time I did it was to remove any excess loctite and avoid cross-threading. However, a few rails felt gritty when the bolts were turned into them...like there was finish or something in the threads. I now clean out the threads with the appropriate size tap.
Averageman
12-20-15, 17:38
Chasing those smaller threads with a tap is never a bad idea, but I would guess most of the issues are with the the smaller bolts/fasteners. Smaller threads are difficult to cut and even easier to damage.
I think you are going about it the right way.
Slot the head of the bolt with a dremel and use a regular screw driver to twist it out. I did this on a slim rail that a customer installed on his rifle and it worked great. DD even sent me replacement screws free of charge (I am a dealer so that might have made a difference).
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-20-15, 18:53
I was loosening the other bolts and stripped out another one WITH a brand new tool. These bolts are made of paper as far as I can tell. If DD ever bothers to respond to anything I plan on letting them get it out. Jesus.
It may have something to do with the Loc-Tite you said you used. You never said what color. Might be time to come clean.........
Averageman
12-20-15, 19:23
I was loosening the other bolts and stripped out another one WITH a brand new tool. These bolts are made of paper as far as I can tell. If DD ever bothers to respond to anything I plan on letting them get it out. Jesus.
Geeze, I can feel the frustration from here.
pointblank4445
12-20-15, 19:50
It may have something to do with the Loc-Tite you said you used. You never said what color. Might be time to come clean.........
Have YOU ever had to back these screws out after being secured with blue thread lock?
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-20-15, 20:42
"t may have something to do with the Loc-Tite you said you used. You never said what color. Might be time to come clean."
Nah,242. Which they include with all their stuff. Even so, this happened when it was still wet so nope.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-21-15, 19:16
Still no contact
Still no contact
I got an email last week, that I must have deleted stating that all the employees are currently on holiday vacation
dmaxfireman
12-21-15, 19:31
Slot the head of the bolt with a dremel and use a regular screw driver to twist it out. I did this on a slim rail that a customer installed on his rifle and it worked great. DD even sent me replacement screws free of charge (I am a dealer so that might have made a difference).
Greg, I just did this on a Centurion rail side screw a month ago, and two days ago on my DD Lite III rail (almost identical attachment layout to yours). Use a half worn dremal cutoff wheel carefully slow to medium speed, cut a slot in the top of the screw, wrap the adjacent areas in electrical tape if needed, get a LARGE/LONG flat blade screw driver and turn it out. I bought extra screws that I will replace from now on any time the rail needs to be removed and reinstalled to avoid this happening again.
dmaxfireman, where were you able to pick up an extra set of bolt up screws for the lite III? sounds like a great idea to have an extra set of 4 on hand. Also, do you use any kind of thread locker on the hex screws when you bolt the Lite III back up? Finally, what size hex screw fits the 4 bolt up screws that go with the Lite III? I have a pile of hex screws and non of them appear to fit. Thanks for your help!
dmaxfireman
12-21-15, 19:52
dmaxfireman, where were you able to pick up an extra set of bolt up screws for the lite III? sounds like a great idea to have an extra set of 4 on hand. Also, do you use any kind of thread locker on the hex screws when you bolt the Lite III back up? Finally, what size hex screw fits the 4 bolt up screws that go with the Lite III? I have a pile of hex screws and non of them appear to fit. Thanks for your help!
They are M4 aka 5/32, they will be in the bins as M4x25 at Ace Hardware where I got mine. They had stainless and black oxide. I use blue loctite. I thought about using hex socket cap screws instead (for the deeper tool engagement) but the lower screws did not fit with the taller heads.
Coal Dragger
12-21-15, 22:20
I've been looking at the screws on my DDM4V11 PRO which uses the same rail, and mounting interface. Yeah, I'm not that impressed with the fastening hardware. The screws are small, and why in the hell did they use Allen heads? Who do we have to kill around here to get Torx heads? In my experience they don't strip out nearly as easily.
I also have one of the DD RIS II rails, it may weight 2 tons and be the same circumference as the moon but at least it uses big beefy fasteners.
dmaxfireman
12-22-15, 09:15
I did some looking around and finding metric torx drive button head in black oxide is not easy. I found some that would work but a 10pk is $50+shipping. Not very cost effective. You can buy the allen heads for $0.50ish each and replace them every time the rail comes on or off and still be ahead of the game.
I did some looking around and finding metric torx drive button head in black oxide is not easy. I found some that would work but a 10pk is $50+shipping. Not very cost effective. You can buy the allen heads for $0.50ish each and replace them every time the rail comes on or off and still be ahead of the game.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if those are hardened screws and the allen head hardened, you'll have to beat pretty damn hard on that rifle to force that wrench into the screw no? I wouldn't want to bang away on the rifle like that if I didn't have to. There's a number of effective screw removal tools out there. I had to remove some very small screws from an expensive piece of audio equipment (10K+ amp) using SpeedOut kit for $5 when the typical screw removal bits didn't work for chit.
dmaxfireman
12-22-15, 09:30
I'm no metallurgist and I'm not sure if they are hardened or not, but just enough hand pressure with an allen wrench (4-5 installs and removals) was enough to wear out the head.
I'm no metallurgist and I'm not sure if they are hardened or not, but just enough hand pressure with an allen wrench (4-5 installs and removals) was enough to wear out the head.
Then I'd highly recommend keeping a SpeedOut kit on hand which can be had for $5 on Amazon. The screws in that amp were tiny and would strip if you breathed on them wrong. I replaced them with hardened screws once I was done replacing the blown fuse.
Jwknutson17
12-24-15, 11:42
Still no contact
Send me a PM. I have an extra back plate and a few screws I'll send you. I had the same issue that you had using the supplied DD Allen. It was not the correct spec for the Allen's. I only use snap-on ones now for everything. But they sent me a new plate and barrel nut and screws. I should have a couple of extra screws (used but in decent shape) you can have. And I didn't use the back plate piece. If you have to cut it to get it off, use that as a replacement. It took them 3 weeks to send me a new one FYI. So they are a little slow.
theorangecat
12-24-15, 18:09
I got an email last week, that I must have deleted stating that all the employees are currently on holiday vacation
Yep:
"Please note we will be closed December 19th-December 27th, we will be back December 28Th."
toc
I've had the same experience with those crappy screws. I drilled the heads off with a 12" long 1/4" drill bit in a cordless drill. Drilled like butter. DD sent me some more and I ended up stripping one of those too and that was with snap on wrenches and no loctite. Those screws are junk! The only good thing is they are so soft that they drill easily. Good luck.
I've had the same experience with those crappy screws. I drilled the heads off with a 12" long 1/4" drill bit in a cordless drill. Drilled like butter. DD sent me some more and I ended up stripping one of those too and that was with snap on wrenches and no loctite. Those screws are junk! The only good thing is they are so soft that they drill easily. Good luck.
Wow, looks like drilling out stripped fasteners works. Who would of thought? :suicide:
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-26-15, 17:49
That looks like my best bet. Hopefully DD doesn't decide to take another few weeks off for good measure. I need some screws.
Actually, I think I will just order some M4x25 off Amazon. Hopefully they are it.
I stripped a screw on my DD lite III. I used a dremel with half worn cut off wheel and cut a slot in the screw to accept a flat head screw driver. It came right out. Those screws are junk and I found replacement at my local ACE hardware.
Interested in this thread because I am thinking about getting a 12" Slim rail for my next build. A quick google search came up with this place that advertises $6.99 flat rate USPS shipping. Not sure if these would work and I have not ordered from here before. They are metric grade 10.9 which if I converted right seems equal to grade 8. They are button heads just like what is sent with the rail. I threw 20 of them in the cart and estimated shipping. Came out to $11 total.
http://www.mrmetric.com/metric-fasteners/metric-button-socket-screws-steel-10-9/M11440.html
Torquetard
02-12-16, 19:08
I stripped one or two myself by not using a ball hex. Thankfully DD sent me like 5 new screws. Once they're in they stay in though, no loctite needed
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