View Full Version : .25 acp for self defense?
Rermey Lee
12-16-15, 21:27
Guys, I know the .25 acp is considered to be sub standard, but if you look at street shooting statistics, the majority of them are small calibers like .380 and .25 acp, and these small rounds tend to tumble around and hit vital organs like the heart and they're almost always deadly. So how to you think a .25 acp would fare for self defense? It would be nice to just throw something like a colt vest pocket pistol in my pocket real quick when heading out instead of getting all holstered up with a larger caliber pistol.
I would not want to be shot by one. I wouldn't even want to be shot by my 10/22. I agree that they seem to be deadly from incidents I read about.
To play Devil's Advocate......
So you can tell when you will and when you won't need your regular EDC?
Better than nothing, a .25 is. Think of it as an ice pick you can use from a distance:)
john
Killing someone and stopping them are two different things. Try researching everything by the late Dr Fackler and by Dr Gary Robers. He posts on forums as Docgkr.
Summery, stick with 9mm whenever possible, and use a rifle when possible. There is also a great terminal ballistic subforum here.
Do you hunt?
titsonritz
12-16-15, 22:45
To play Devil's Advocate......
So you can tell when you will and when you won't need your regular EDC?
Better than nothing, a .25 is. Think of it as an ice pick you can use from a distance:)
john
Except an ice pick has better penetration. I know a guy that got shot six times in the forehead with a .25acp and didn't even realize he was being shot, he thought the dude was throwing jabs, he grabbed the guy and nearly pummeled him to death. He got out of the hospital first and still has the 6 little dents in is head. Grated he is a big ass Samoan that probably spent his childhood tackling palm trees for fun.
I don't know what it is with folks and their fascination of mouse guns for CCW. I tend to think that it may be the natural laziness that humans display in that it's easier to slip a small pistol like these things in your pocket rather than take the time to dress around a larger caliber. Yes, I know a .25 ACP can kill but killing isn't the mission. It's stopping the other guy from killing you at that particular moment in time that matters, not how long he lingers on before dying long after he already killed you. I figure that if I have the need to go about armed, I want the largest gun I can comfortably shoot and conceal within reason that has far better stopping power. Now as a backup gun, maybe a .25 ACP has its place but for primary carry, I'm going to stick with something a bit more heavy duty than a .25 ACP and the like.
Except an ice pick has better penetration. I know a guy that got shot six times in the forehead with a .25acp and didn't even realize he was being shot, he thought the dude was throwing jabs, he grabbed the guy and nearly pummeled him to death. He got out of the hospital first and still has the 6 little dents in is head. Grated he is a big ass Samoan that probably spent his childhood tackling palm trees for fun.
That sounds hard to believe, must have been some ancient ammo stored on a dirt floor.
That sounds hard to believe, must have been some ancient ammo stored on a dirt floor.
Have you ever seen one of them Samoans real up close??
Guys, I know the .25 acp is considered to be sub standard, but if you look at street shooting statistics, the majority of them are small calibers like .380 and .25 acp, and these small rounds tend to tumble around and hit vital organs like the heart and they're almost always deadly. So how to you think a .25 acp would fare for self defense? It would be nice to just throw something like a colt vest pocket pistol in my pocket real quick when heading out instead of getting all holstered up with a larger caliber pistol.
The .380 is considered sub standard. The 25acp is considered a joke. "...these small rounds tend to tumble around and hit vital organs like the heart and they're almost always deadly." Um what?
You should try an M&P shield or glock 43. They are pocketable (if that is a word) quite easily or they ride very nicely as an appendix rig. Both of them give you much more reliable ballistics that a .22, .25, .380 etc etc.
I saw an episode of Cops where they responded to a shooting. When they got there the victim was on his feet in a lot of pain but still very much capable of fighting, he was actually walking around banging trash cans and kicking things. A witness said he was shot with a little .25 pocket pistol. (if I recall it was a party or BBQ and everyone involved knew each other) The bullet had gone through his shoulder and was just under the skin on his back. Granted, the bullet missed the vitals but it didn't look like it took any fight out of him at all. In fact it might have made true the old joke of only pissing someone off. A 9mm or better in the same spot might not have caused immediate incapacitation either but I bet it would have at least done enough to render that arm useless if the wound cavity didn't damage the lung.
I know putting on a holster and larger gun isn't convenient, but this is life-or-death we're talking about here. Go to the trouble of carrying a compact or fullsize gun and get something small for a BUG that you could throw in a pocket if you have to leave in a hurry for something important.
Better than a sharp pointy stick, but not to be depended on, no matter what happens with the hood rats.
The lowest I'd go is .380 and that's only with appropriate ammo selection. In gel tests 380 ammo using Hornady XTPs expands pretty reliably and JUST BARELY meets the 12" minimum in penetration.
Plenty of 380 pistols that will easily fit in a pocket. 9 times out of 10 I've got my BG380 in my back pocket as a BUG. I make a point to not carry that as my ONLY weapon unless I just have to though.
That sounds hard to believe, must have been some ancient ammo stored on a dirt floor.
Many years ago in Handgunner magazine, Ayoob did a write up of .25 ACP shootings. One of the anecdotes I remember from the article was about a stick up team who would come up to victims, put the gun to their forehead at point-blank range and fire, leaving the victim on the ground unconscious, with only a concussion (anatomically, the human skull is slightly thicker at the forehead to protect the human brain).
While ammunition technology has advanced quite a bit since then, I would still view the 25 ACP with suspicion.
Sent from 80ms in the future
Jimmy
Better than a sharp pointy stick, but not to be depended on, no matter what happens with the hood rats.
The lowest I'd go is .380 and that's only with appropriate ammo selection. In gel tests 380 ammo using Hornady XTPs expands pretty reliably and JUST BARELY meets the 12" minimum in penetration.
Plenty of 380 pistols that will easily fit in a pocket. 9 times out of 10 I've got my BG380 in my back pocket as a BUG. I make a point to not carry that as my ONLY weapon unless I just have to though.
I wouldn't bet on that one. The .380 comes under "better than pointy sticks and throwing rocks" but the .25 ACP, a good pointed stick within striking range might in fact be more effective. Just sayin' :cool:
Been a while since I looked, but I recall the .22L might actually have better terminal ballistics in uber mouse guns.
I wouldn't bet on that one. The .380 comes under "better than pointy sticks and throwing rocks" but the .25 ACP, a good pointed stick within striking range might in fact be more effective. Just sayin' :cool:
Been a while since I looked, but I recall the .22L might actually have better terminal ballistics in uber mouse guns.
It's entirely possible you're right lol
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1) When a .32 could be found for the past 30 years as small as the smallest .25 autos...
2) When a .380 could be found for the past 15 years in a size as small as the smallest .32 auto...
3) When a 9mm could be found smaller than the typical .380 of the past 70 years, and as small as the typical tiny 380's of the past 15...
There's no practical reason to use a .25, except they can be made cheap zinc and junk plastic.
Defensive ammo for .32 and .25 are disappearing, and no new defensive loads are being developed.
These are market trends that suggest, strongly, that .25 has no future.
Which is a shame because I have some nice C&R's that I'll never get to carry in my vest opposite my pocket watch, fingering the ivory handle gently with my right hand as I twirl my waxed handlebar mustache with my left. Them's the breaks.
midnight son
12-17-15, 19:41
Great final post there. I was just having this conversation with a co-worker. When I held and shot a Kel-tec .32 for the first time 15 or so years ago I was amazed!!! I had to have one. I remember when a typical .380 was the size of my edc Kahr P45. I agree, no reason at all to carry any less than .380. Now, I must admit.....I own a Bauer .25 that I take to the range time to time to get a chuckle out of friends. It's the smallest gun I know of, and shoots right to the sights. Only for fun.
I wouldn't want to get shot with one.
That being said, have you ever considered that many people may be killed with small calibers like .22 simply because they don't seek medical care until too late? It's entirely possible that someone might get shot with one, not realize it thinking it was a punch, and then by the time they find out, too late.
Considering just how small 9mm firearms can be made nowadays, even .380 for that matter, I can't imagine why anyone would want a .25acp. I can't think of any reputable manufacturer that even makes them brand new anymore.
Drifting Fate
12-17-15, 20:45
My sum total experience with the .25 was when a college buddy bought a Raven thinking, "just how bad could it be?" It fired, cycling was iffy, but FMJ literally wouldn't penetrate the bottom of a soup can.
I've heard my anecdotal stories of guys popping out .25 slugs like zits, but then the gun counter is only equal to the fishing counter for big stories.
When I teach NRA basic pistol classes, I seem to end up working with a disproportionate number of older ladies, often with hand or wrist limitations. A subcompact .380 or 9mm is a poor choice for them. Mouseguns still have their place. While hey may not stop all purposeful activity, they do tend to make bad guys reconsider their intentions.
As between a .22 and .25, I will take a .22 any day. The .22 has better penetration in my limited experience on that subject, and cheaper ammo = more practice. I have not found rimfire ammo to be any less reliable than centerfire ammo. Good quality ammo works, and poor quality ammo doesn't, regardless of caliber.
The .380 is considered sub standard. The 25acp is considered a joke. "...these small rounds tend to tumble around and hit vital organs like the heart and they're almost always deadly." Um what?
I believe the old "bullet bouncing around in the body story" is pretty much an urban myth. I had one fellow tell me that his police buddy told him he'd rather get shot with a 38 ro 357 than a 22LR due to the 22LR bouncing around in the body and tearing up all the organs. I've shot a fair number or animals with a 22LR and never noticed the bouncing around affect.
I believe the old "bullet bouncing around in the body story" is pretty much an urban myth. I had one fellow tell me that his police buddy told him he'd rather get shot with a 38 ro 357 than a 22LR due to the 22LR bouncing around in the body and tearing up all the organs. I've shot a fair number or animals with a 22LR and never noticed the bouncing around affect.
I think it's a case by case thing. My dad was shot under the chin with a 22lr revolver barrel pointing upwards and that bullet ended up lodged in his spine where it still rest today. How it got there is filed under the category of bullets doing weird things when they encounter flesh and bone.
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From what I've seen-carry a hammer instead
Rermey Lee
12-18-15, 19:53
lots of interesting replys! Good points on the difference of stopping power vs lethality, seems like the general consensus is that these smaller rounds may kill but it might take time to do so.
Rermey Lee
12-18-15, 19:58
The .380 is considered sub standard. The 25acp is considered a joke. "...these small rounds tend to tumble around and hit vital organs like the heart and they're almost always deadly." Um what?
Just ask any street cop, they'll most likely say these smaller low powered rounds are usually lethal when the victim is hit in the abdomen, how long it takes or if it could stop an attack effectively is up for debate. I had a friend who was shot in the abdomen with a .380, it lodged in his heart and he died not too long after, look at Lee Harvey Oswald, shot in the abdomen with a .38 special LRN, immediately incapacitated, died soon after. Granted .38 special is a far cry from .25acp but it's still under 9mm. and 6-8 shots of .25acp to the face or chest is nothing to sneeze at.
ramairthree
12-18-15, 21:55
I bought one of those tiny .25 autos in the early 90s
It was just neat to be so tiny and affordable.
I have about 300 rounds through it.
Compared to tiny Beretta 22s and 32s I have had a chance to shoot next to,
At trees, phones books, etc. you were just as likely to see the 25 slug stuck where you could see it where it hit. But got penetration with the 22 and 32.
If I remember I will get it out and take some picks.
Just ask any street cop, they'll most likely say these smaller low powered rounds are usually lethal when the victim is hit in the abdomen, how long it takes or if it could stop an attack effectively is up for debate. I had a friend who was shot in the abdomen with a .380, it lodged in his heart and he died not too long after, look at Lee Harvey Oswald, shot in the abdomen with a .38 special LRN, immediately incapacitated, died soon after. Granted .38 special is a far cry from .25acp but it's still under 9mm. and 6-8 shots of .25acp to the face or chest is nothing to sneeze at.
I don't have to, I know many and have worked with many more. I'm not an expert in terminal ballistics compared to some, but am fairly well read on the topic. Handgun rnds in standard duty loads (9mm -45ACP) are poor man stoppers. Various anecdotes of people dying from a .25 ACP (which is a different issue from rapid incapacitation) are of no value. We also have plenty of confirmed stories of people absorbing double digit rnds from .40 and .45ACP, staying in the fight to injure/kill LE, until someone with a long gun showed up to put the goblin down. Many shot with small caliber handgun rnds don't even realize they have been shot, and bleed out a mile down the road (often after inflicting serious harm to others)
If you wanna CCW a .25acp, be my guest. Sounds like you really need to do more research on this topic and the term "stopping power" not used in decades by people who research this topic for a living.
Auto-X Fil
12-19-15, 09:29
"I wouldn't want to get shot by one."
That is a horrible argument. I don't want to get punched in the face by my little sister, either. But I'm not going to rely on her haymaker to stop and attacker.
Killing someone because you ice pick a lung isn't going to stop them from finishing you off with a baseball bat. I would literally take a sword over a .25acp in most fights. There are just way to many instances of people taking a full mag of that stuff and being totally functional for hours or days.
.380/.38spl is a huge step down from 9mm, and marginal at best. Anything smaller is a joke. There's no debate here.
Any gun is better than no gun, but I can't see myself settling for a 25 ACP unless I was broke and it was all I had.
I dunno....
The three most common homicide calibers I've personally seen were .25s, 380s, and maybe. 38 tieing with. 22.
Granted these people were shot point blank and usually by surprise.
I learned in my early 20s that there's no such thing as "just" any caliber. I'm a .45 guy for no other reason than it was my first issue caliber and the one I was initially formally trained on (Didn't have a choice. Here's yer gun, kid. Keep it clean).
I stick with it out of habit and muscle memory. 9mm or maybe .40/.357 sig is likelier more practical but I'm so used to .45 that I use it despite everyone else using .40. Just my hang up.
That said I've seen guys hammered with .45s and live (albeit paralyzed and missing like a lot of intestines) and guys COMed with .40 get permanently 10-7.
I knew a dude who knew a dude in an OIS in Alabama (yeah I know probably not the best articulation) who used Glock 20s and a more effete loading of 10MM (which puts it at .40 pressure/power as I understand it ) and hit the suspect like 4 times and the suspect lived.
I said "Man 10mm can be wicked" and he told me about that. But it's all in the load. If it were a 10mm Norma, suspect likely wouldn't have survived (or better marksmanship maybe).
Most people who died from the 'sub-calibers' got hit in the heart or a major artery. Most shot in the head died from brain swell and not automatically.(think days).
There's some truth to the frequency of pocket calibers but mainly because....they are pocket calibers. And small guns are favored by hoods as easier to ditch or conceal.
They CAN be lethal and not all shootings result in fatality.
Really, pistols are poor for terminal ballistics anyway.
.25s are curios, but .380 is the lowest caliber I would really go.
I probably shouldn't be hauling a .45 ACP but I do.
I would not base my choice for a concealed carry handgun caliber based on homicide statistics. I would want a caliber that had a decent chance of inflicting rapid incapacitation with a well placed shot that misses the heart or a CNS point.
I would be careful about the usefulness of anecdotes about stopping power from some police officers. I heard a lot of stories about the effectiveness of my agency's issued 9mm cartridge, but none of the folklore coincided with autopsy photos, ME reports or information gathered from witnesses and the officers who were actually involved in the shootings.
Personally, I would not carry a .25 ACP, .22 Magnum, .22 LR or .32 ACP. A .380 Auto has extreme limitations and it is the bare minimum I would consider carrying for self defense.
Choose a defensive cartridge based on verifiable information concerning performance in both the laboratory and in the field.
I would not base my choice for a concealed carry handgun caliber based on homicide statistics. I would want a caliber that had a decent chance of inflicting rapid incapacitation with a well placed shot that misses the heart or a CNS point.
I would be careful about the usefulness of anecdotes about stopping power from some police officers. I heard a lot of stories about the effectiveness of my agency's issued 9mm cartridge, but none of the folklore coincided with autopsy photos, ME reports or information gathered from witnesses and the officers who were actually involved in the shootings.
Personally, I would not carry a .25 ACP, .22 Magnum, .22 LR or .32 ACP. A .380 Auto has extreme limitations and it is the bare minimum I would consider carrying for self defense.
Choose a defensive cartridge based on verifiable information concerning performance in both the laboratory and in the field.
End Thread. One can lead a horse to water, but can't make him think.
Well yeah but those dead people are still dead.
Honest to God my duty pistol is purely defensive and part of the uniform.
If I knew that I were going into the fight of my life, I want some kind of rifle. 13 years ago me would have been content with a shotgun but no...I want a short wippet of a .300 blk.
Look at every handgun to handgun fight. Sloppy, fast, and not pretty.
Keep in mind, I said those guys were killed close in and by surprise.
I.e. a dope hit or someone got disaspected or robbed.
I don't think there is a such thing as a good pistol cartridge.
Disclosure: I have a .25 I bought because I wanted one. It has killed a few squirrels and one raccoon.
It wouldn't be my first choice on hominids.
And....I think if people knew how many people were shot by the police and lived; they'd be shocked. It's a fair amount.
Unless rifles get involved.
I enjoy .25 acp and wish there were more guns for it...and that the ammo was cheaper.
Not for defense but for plinking. It's just as much fun to shoot as .22 but with reliable ignition and feeding. .22lr sucks. Yea it used to be cheap but no more.
Iirc John Browning developed. 25 acp because it was so difficult to get semiautomatic .22's to run.
I wish .25 acp just replaced .22lr.
About its performance, I think .22 and .25 are just prone to bouncing off bone (one change in direction). Or just stopping/deflecting when encountering certain tough masses. (Like a belt, phone, or even hard muscle) Rounded noses, low SD, low velocities. (Handguns)
I also agree that a noggin can be difficult to penetrate without some more velocity. A small caliber like this probably is more effective by going for the heart/lungs. Or stuffing the muzzle in an eye socket or soft part of the skull.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm always on the lookout for old 25s and 32s in good condition. But that's because those old pocket guns have historical interest and significance. The more I think about the more I think a sharp pointy stick might be better to carry than those would be
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They'd be great for a bank robbery, preferably unloaded so no one gets hurt. Bank tellers will do what you say if you point an empty .25 ACP at them.
specopsscout
12-20-15, 09:54
I saw a buddy get shot with a .25 ACP, while we were standing outside a strip club in Oceanside, Calif. Guys rode by in a car, the gun came out and started firing. I jumped behind a telephone pole, and he got hit in the tricep with the round. He was a body builder, so I used to joke that he only got hit because he was a bigger target, but the bullet, a FMJ, only did superficial damage. He was definitely more pissed then disabled. We actually thought he got shot with an airsoft gun at first, as it sounded muffled, and he just said it stung when it hit him. It wasn't until they pulled the FMJ out that we realized he was hit by a real gun.
When I first got off Active Duty, I worked as a Hospital Security Guard in an inner city. One night, I watched a guy walk into an Emergency Room with a local Police Officer. The Officer was trying to get him to sit down, yelling for the staff to respond quickly, and otherwise on the edge of panic, but the guy walking with him, 6'3", 260 pounds kept telling him to calm down, and reassured him that everything was fine. He walked up to the window, pulled out his wallet, and even tried to register himself, with the receptionist, before the nervous Officer got the ER staff to pull him right back. It turned out the big guy was a bouncer at a local club/bar. A patron had a problem with being ejected, and came back and pumped a half dozen .32 caliber rounds into the big guy's chest, before he got mad and beat the guy nearly to death. When the Cops got there, they didn't even realize he was shot, until they noticed the blood on his shirt was spreading and didn't belong to the shooter. Once the adrenaline wore off, the big guy was in some pain, and obviously hurting(the x-ray of his chest looked crazy with all the bullets expanded, and two lodged in bones), but fifteen minutes after the shooting, when he walked in, you would have never known he was the victim.
A .25 isn't exactly a bee sting but...yeah, weird things happen with GSWs.
I saw a dude high on meth stitched up with a .380 sit down and bum a cigarette while we waited for EMS.
I saw a buddy get shot with a .25 ACP, while we were standing outside a strip club in Oceanside, Calif. Guys rode by in a car, the gun came out and started firing. I jumped behind a telephone pole, and he got hit in the tricep with the round. He was a body builder, so I used to joke that he only got hit because he was a bigger target, but the bullet, a FMJ, only did superficial damage. He was definitely more pissed then disabled. We actually thought he got shot with an airsoft gun at first, as it sounded muffled, and he just said it stung when it hit him. It wasn't until they pulled the FMJ out that we realized he was hit by a real gun.
When I first got off Active Duty, I worked as a Hospital Security Guard in an inner city. One night, I watched a guy walk into an Emergency Room with a local Police Officer. The Officer was trying to get him to sit down, yelling for the staff to respond quickly, and otherwise on the edge of panic, but the guy walking with him, 6'3", 260 pounds kept telling him to calm down, and reassured him that everything was fine. He walked up to the window, pulled out his wallet, and even tried to register himself, with the receptionist, before the nervous Officer got the ER staff to pull him right back. It turned out the big guy was a bouncer at a local club/bar. A patron had a problem with being ejected, and came back and pumped a half dozen .32 caliber rounds into the big guy's chest, before he got mad and beat the guy nearly to death. When the Cops got there, they didn't even realize he was shot, until they noticed the blood on his shirt was spreading and didn't belong to the shooter. Once the adrenaline wore off, the big guy was in some pain, and obviously hurting(the x-ray of his chest looked crazy with all the bullets expanded, and two lodged in bones), but fifteen minutes after the shooting, when he walked in, you would have never known he was the victim.
As mentioned, many shot with the mouse gun rnds don't even know they have been shot, and if the person you shot with that mouse gun beats you to death and bleeds out a mile down the road and dies, you've obviously failed in employing an effective SD tool. That he died in that situation irrelevant and why death not actually an effective measure of success here. I knew a pathologist who swore by the .25 ACP because he said he saw more dead bodies with .25 ACP in them than other calibers and that was proof enough for him. He failed to understand the concept of incapacitation vs death.
cutter_spc
12-20-15, 15:11
Guys, I know the .25 acp is considered to be sub standard, but if you look at street shooting statistics, the majority of them are small calibers like .380 and .25 acp, and these small rounds tend to tumble around and hit vital organs like the heart and they're almost always deadly. So how to you think a .25 acp would fare for self defense? It would be nice to just throw something like a colt vest pocket pistol in my pocket real quick when heading out instead of getting all holstered up with a larger caliber pistol.
My uncle must be a lucky dude. His ex wife shot him three times in the torso with a .25 acp. He went on to throw the couch out the living room window and finally went to the ER the next day. He still laughs about it to this day. As a side note, he is no reflection of the true nature of the rest of my family, lol.
Now I know shot placement is everything, and no, my uncle was not shot 3 times right in the ticker, but none of the rounds he was hit with exited. Me personally, I want a round that has the capability to punch two holes.
My uncle must be a lucky dude. His ex wife shot him three times in the torso with a .25 acp. He went on to throw the couch out the living room window and finally went to the ER the next day. He still laughs about it to this day. As a side note, he is no reflection of the true nature of the rest of my family, lol.
Now I know shot placement is everything, and no, my uncle was not shot 3 times right in the ticker, but none of the rounds he was hit with exited. Me personally, I want a round that has the capability to punch two holes.
Wouldn't it be true that a pistol round that punches two holes (entry and exit) hasn't expended all it's potential energy in the body? I'd like one that ends up nestled against the back ribs.
RE the .25ACP - I carried a Colt .25ACP in a cuff case as a third, last ditch, weapon, I loaded it with KTW rounds - teflon coated - because I figured at the point I used the little Colt, it would be against the head of an assailant. Never had to see if my assumption they would penetrate the skull was true, thank goodness.
Wouldn't it be true that a pistol round that punches two holes (entry and exit) hasn't expended all it's potential energy in the body?
This is true. However, on the flip side, a round that will punch two holes had better ability to punch through barriers, be it clothes, walls, bone and penetrate to reach vitals. You have to take into account that you are not always going to be shooting assholes who are turned completely square to you. Opposed to a round that hits and dumps all energy into a target and only penetrates minimally. If the round doesn't reach the vitals all the energy dumped in the world doesn't help all that much.
cutter_spc
12-20-15, 20:02
Wouldn't it be true that a pistol round that punches two holes (entry and exit) hasn't expended all it's potential energy in the body? I'd like one that ends up nestled against the back ribs.
I wouldn't rely on energy transfer of a pistol round and in my hunting experience, two bleeding holes are better than one.
Wouldn't it be true that a pistol round that punches two holes (entry and exit) hasn't expended all it's potential energy in the body? I'd like one that ends up nestled against the back ribs.
RE the .25ACP - I carried a Colt .25ACP in a cuff case as a third, last ditch, weapon, I loaded it with KTW rounds - teflon coated - because I figured at the point I used the little Colt, it would be against the head of an assailant. Never had to see if my assumption they would penetrate the skull was true, thank goodness.
Against the ribs? Then there isn't enough energy, that's why 9mm is preferred, it can oenetrate barriers, expand, reach the vitals, and still have reduced risk of being fatal in case of a passthrough.
As the above poster stated, 2 holes will stop a threat quicker. Last point, how can it damage the cns if it stops against the ribs? I'd want it to penetrate and sever the spine.
And energy transfer is not a wounding mechanism for pistol rounds.
civiliansheepdog
12-20-15, 20:24
I would only reiterate what has already been said, particularly the difference in stopping a threat and killing a threat. People die in the hospital all the time from gunshot wounds, many times days later. However, the question is, what did he accomplish before he went. You need to stop the bad guy now and like Ricky tick now!!! You need to end him before he ends you regardless if he dies or not. The objective is incapacitaton ASAP...if he dies, oh well. At the end of the day, 9mm is the threshold for the minimum defensive pistol caliber, IMHO.
Against the ribs? Then there isn't enough energy, that's why 9mm is preferred, it can oenetrate barriers, expand, reach the vitals, and still have reduced risk of being fatal in case of a passthrough.
As the above poster stated, 2 holes will stop a threat quicker. Last point, how can it damage the cns if it stops against the ribs? I'd want it to penetrate and sever the spine.
And energy transfer is not a wounding mechanism for pistol rounds.
I guess I'm wrong as to why there has been a move back to the 9mm, it thought it was because of the reliable expansion that modern hollow points give and the rounds ability to penetrate 14 to 16 inches.
I freely admit I drank the FBI wound ballistics kool-aide over a decade ago and they actually dock rounds for over penetration in their testing protocol.
Handgun projectiles don't travel fast enough to cause significant damage due to temporary cavitation. Nor do they carry enough energy to fling your ass down to the ground. It seems that if the round is still going with enough oomph to go through and through, it hasn't deformed enough to dump all it's energy and make a bigger wound channel.
It sounded to me as if cutter was advocating shooting FMJ or old style hollowpoints that closed in on themselves. Read some of the old data and articles about the NYPD and their FMJ and RNL bullets. Advocating through and through penetration as a desired measure of effectiveness with a handgun round doesn't seem to make sense. As I posted earlier, the FBI protocols dock rounds for over penetration.
Additionally, unless you want to mess with a guy for the 10 to 15 seconds a determined assailant has to shoot you after you destroy his heart, the sad reality is the chest is not a good place to reach the CNS. You shoot someone in the chest and get the spine, you probably didn't get them high enough to completely stop motor nerve impulse to the arms and hands. Generally to be sure of that you need to get them in the cervical spine - think right at or above the jugular notch.
JMO, sorry I didn't make my post clearer as to what I was saying.
Refreshing my memory on 25 history and performance, John Moses designed it to replicate the ballistics of 22lr out of a 2" barrel. He wanted something with that performance level with more reliable primers and feeding. Tbh that's an anemic level of performance.
The Hornaday xtp load in 25 is 35gr @900fps. If you want to put a hurting on someone, Mass is good, velocity is good and 25acp really has neither.
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I guess I'm wrong as to why there has been a move back to the 9mm, it thought it was because of the reliable expansion that modern hollow points give and the rounds ability to penetrate 14 to 16 inches.
I freely admit I drank the FBI wound ballistics kool-aide over a decade ago and they actually dock rounds for over penetration in their testing protocol.
Handgun projectiles don't travel fast enough to cause significant damage due to temporary cavitation. Nor do they carry enough energy to fling your ass down to the ground. It seems that if the round is still going with enough oomph to go through and through, it hasn't deformed enough to dump all it's energy and make a bigger wound channel.
It sounded to me as if cutter was advocating shooting FMJ or old style hollowpoints that closed in on themselves. Read some of the old data and articles about the NYPD and their FMJ and RNL bullets. Advocating through and through penetration as a desired measure of effectiveness with a handgun round doesn't seem to make sense. As I posted earlier, the FBI protocols dock rounds for over penetration.
Additionally, unless you want to mess with a guy for the 10 to 15 seconds a determined assailant has to shoot you after you destroy his heart, the sad reality is the chest is not a good place to reach the CNS. You shoot someone in the chest and get the spine, you probably didn't get them high enough to completely stop motor nerve impulse to the arms and hands. Generally to be sure of that you need to get them in the cervical spine - think right at or above the jugular notch.
JMO, sorry I didn't make my post clearer as to what I was saying.
Your right with penetration depth, but due to the stretchability of skin, on exiting the round loses a lot of energy, much more so than going in. Good hps don't penetrate much more after a passthrough. I was referring to clean frontal shots. You start going through arms, shoulders, etc, you most likely won't get a passthrough. The fact that a round does expand is much more important than diameter as it tears tissue leaving a hole about the same size as the round. With fmj or non expanded hp, the hole is much smaller than the round since it's smooth and the tissue stretches around it.
Edit: perhaps I incorrectly ASSUMED that you meant for a clean frontal shot, thsn resting against ribs. If your penetrating barriers or other limbs first, I don't think good jhp will passthrough.
For the cns shot, I know it's unlikely, but if I got lucky enough to have the bullet on track for it, I'd want it to be able to reach it. A good jhp will most of the time.
25ACP does not penetrate nearly enough with hps.
Your right with penetration depth, but due to the stretchability of skin, on exiting the round loses a lot of energy, much more so than going in. Good hps don't penetrate much more after a passthrough. I was referring to clean frontal shots. You start going through arms, shoulders, etc, you most likely won't get a passthrough. The fact that a round does expand is much more important than diameter as it tears tissue leaving a hole about the same size as the round. With fmj or non expanded hp, the hole is much smaller than the round since it's smooth and the tissue stretches around it.
Edit: perhaps I incorrectly ASSUMED that you meant for a clean frontal shot, thsn resting against ribs. If your penetrating barriers or other limbs first, I don't think good jhp will passthrough.
For the cns shot, I know it's unlikely, but if I got lucky enough to have the bullet on track for it, I'd want it to be able to reach it. A good jhp will most of the time.
25ACP does not penetrate nearly enough with hps.
Good HPS don't tend to pass through at all. Is that not a major goal of such a bullet? Adequate penetration and expansion without passthrough. Although I have not researched that one in any depth recently, I'd expect passhrough on torso shots with modern bullets in standard duty loads would be very low. Do we have a source on say OIS that resulted in a passthrough?
Good HPS don't tend to pass through at all. Is that not a major goal of such a bullet? Adequate penetration and expansion without passthrough. Although I have not researched that one in any depth recently, I'd expect passhrough on torso shots with modern bullets in standard duty loads would be very low. Do we have a source on say OIS that resulted in a passthrough?
I don't have links, I'll look. I read about a couple where the bullets were found laying on the ground and stuck in walls iirc.
Looking...
I don't have links, I'll look. I read about a couple where the bullets were found laying on the ground and stuck in walls iirc.
Looking...
I'd expect statistically very rare with major bullet manufacturers designed to specs. Passthrough in all but rare events would be considered a failure of design I'd expect for modern JHPs.
I'd expect statistically very rare with major bullet manufacturers designed to specs. Passthrough in all but rare events would be considered a failure of design I'd expect for modern JHPs.
Even from an unobstructed frontal shot? I cannot for the life of me find what I am looking for.
cutter_spc
12-21-15, 14:33
I'm confused, would not most here expect a modern 9mm defensive round to be capable of reaching the heart from an arm pass through side shot? I don't know about y'all, but from my right side to the center of my heart is just under 12", over 13" if you expect it to pass through the heart. Front to back I'm only about 11" thick, but some how passing through less tissue the bullet should penetrate less?
I'm open to being proven wrong, but I expect with a non obstructed frontal shot of an average crack head to get complete pass through with a MODERN defensive 9mm load, such as XTP, Gold dot, or HST. I'm not suggesting that the round will have enough energy left to do much more damage on down range, but I would expect it to pass through 12" or so of flesh and the second hole to be bigger than the first. Now major bone hits are another thing.
Even if I am proven wrong, I'm not going to start carrying a 25 acp and feeling good about it, lol.
cutter_spc
12-21-15, 14:43
Have you ever seen one of them Samoans real up close??
I used to work with one, guy looked like he could take a buck shot load to the chest and still woop my ass! I told him when we first met that I felt sorry for him if we ever got into a fight......cause my hospital bill is going to be expensive....
On a side note and I know they're completely different animals, but I once shot a hog right between the eyes with a 158 grn JSP 357. All it did was piss him off and it took 4 more rounds to bring him down.
Even from an unobstructed frontal shot? I cannot for the life of me find what I am looking for.
That's how I understand it, yes. I honestly can't recall even reading about a passthrough in a shooting even with typical modern duty loads, and never met an LEO who'd been in an OIS who'd experienced such a thing. I'd expect such a thing to be almost an anomaly these days as modern JHPs designed to perform to very specific performance specs and people only getting heavier to boot. There's no lack of vids of LE dumping a mag into a person unobstructed frontal shot with zero passthroughs, some fairly thin men to boot.
I'm confused, would not most here expect a modern 9mm defensive round to be capable of reaching the heart from an arm pass through side shot? I don't know about y'all, but from my right side to the center of my heart is just under 12", over 13" if you expect it to pass through the heart. Front to back I'm only about 11" thick, but some how passing through less tissue the bullet should penetrate less?
I'm open to being proven wrong, but I expect with a non obstructed frontal shot of an average crack head to get complete pass through with a MODERN defensive 9mm load, such as XTP, Gold dot, or HST. I'm not suggesting that the round will have enough energy left to do much more damage on down range, but I would expect it to pass through 12" or so of flesh and the second hole to be bigger than the first. Now major bone hits are another thing.
Even if I am proven wrong, I'm not going to start carrying a 25 acp and feeling good about it, lol.
Not looking to prove anyone "wrong" her per se, just relaying my understanding of the topic, which is second hand to be sure. If one of our ammo/terminal ballistics experts can add some details, that would help no doubt.
Here is what I found about over-penetration after a brief check, M. Ayoob is not my favorite gun writer, but his were the first a google search provided:
Massad Ayoob talked about this issue in his Cop Talk column in the July/August American Handgunner.
1) 1989, Philadelphia cop is killed by .38 slugs from police passing through a felony suspect;
2) 1990, Univ. of Arizona campus, officer A fires at suspect and bullet passes through suspect's ARM and goes on to kill officer B;
3) 1990, So. Cal., L.A. sheriffs "became embroiled in a shootout with an armed robber". Badguy ran into the doorway of a mom 'n pop convenience store. Mom was behind the badguy when police fired, bullet passed through the badguy, mom died, badguy lived.
(I assume the article is from either late 1990 or the early 90's - also no mention in the description of rounds used.) http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/overpenetrate.html
The following are excerpts of an article from 2014 entitled - Massad Ayoob: Is hollowpoint the best defensive ammo for concealed carry?
In 1999, New York City became almost the last major police department to adopt hollow-point ammunition. They did so in the face of huge, long-term opposition based on political correctness and the erroneous perception of hollow points as wicked “dum-dum bullets.”
One reason they were able to pass it was that the city fathers had been made to realize how much danger the supposedly “humane, Geneva Convention-approved” ammunition previously used presented to innocent bystanders and police officers when the duty weapons were fired in self-defense or defense of others.
From the early ’90s adoption of 16-shot 9mm pistols (Glock 19, SIG Sauer P226 DAO and Smith & Wesson Model 5946) through 1999, NYPD issued a full metal jacket “hardball” round, comprising a round-nose 115-grain bullet in the mid-1,100 fps velocity range. The New York Times exposed the following facts in its startling report on the matter:
“According to statistics released by the department, 15 innocent bystanders were struck by police officers using full metal jacket bullets during 1995 and 1996, the police said. Eight were hit directly, five were hit by bullets that had passed through other people and two were hit by bullets that had passed through objects,” stated the Times.
In other words, in rough numbers, 53 percent of these tragic occurrences were apparently missed shots, while 33 percent were “shoot-throughs” of violent felony suspects. Counting bullets that went through objects to hit presumably unseen innocent victims (13 percent), that tells us that roughly 46 percent of these innocent bystanders were shot by over-penetrating bullets that “pierced their backstops.” Let’s call those victims Cases One Through Seven.
17 Officers Shot Due to Over Penetration
The Times continued, “In that same period, 44 police officers were struck by gunfire using the old ammunition: 21 were hit directly, 2 were struck by bullets that ricocheted and 17 were struck by bullets that passed through other people.”
In round numbers, 52 percent of those “friendly fire” casualties were hit by bullets that apparently missed their intended targets. 42 percent passed through the bodies of the intended targets after the bullets struck the people they were aimed at. Let’s tally those victims of over-penetration as Cases Eight through Twenty-Four.........
......In Arizona some years ago, a peace officer fired his 45 service automatic at a large male offender rushing him with a knife. He couldn’t see that a brother officer was running up behind the offender to grab and restrain him.
His gunfire dropped the offender…and passed through his body with enough force to deeply pierce the abdomen of the second cop, who had been trying to rescue the one who fired. That wounded officer almost died from those injuries, inflicted unintentionally by shoot-through with 230-grain full metal jacket 45 ACP. Call that incident Case Twenty-Five.
Many years ago in Los Angeles, an Aryan Brotherhood thug took several people hostage in an office. He demanded an escape vehicle and threatened to start shooting hostages if he didn’t get one. A vehicle was provided, and he got into the car with the victims. At this point, the LAPD SWAT team launched smoke, and two members of the team whom I happened to know moved forward through the gray cloud, their issue Colt 45 automatics up and ready.
When the perpetrator reached for his pistol, the cops opened fire, using department-issue 230-grain hardball. They fired four shots between them, and killed the offender before he could launch a single bullet of his own.
Autopsy showed any of the four hits would have been quickly fatal. However, only one of those bullets stayed in the offender’s body. One of the three exiting slugs struck one of the hostages. Fortunately, the wound was not life-threatening. LAPD quickly switched to hollow points, which is what they use today. Lesson learned. Call it Case Twenty-Six.
http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/25/massad-ayoob-is-hollowpoint-the-best-defensive-ammo-for-concealed-carry/#ixzz3v1PnKTJs
FWIW - Notice these are old cases.
Neutralizing a threat expeditiously does not always mean a fatality, and a fatality does not always mean the threat was stopped expeditiously.
A 9mm Shield or G43 saddles up plenty fast when the situation calls for a gun to have when you don't have a gun.
FWIW - Notice these are old cases.
Exactly. Bullet design has changed dramatically since that time, and we don't even know what bullets were used in those reports. FMJ? Other? It's not terribly useful info in terms of what we have been discussing here, between the dates it happened and little intel on ammo used. In those sections where the bullet type mentioned, seems to indicated repeatedly FMJ, which will pass through people, and one of various reasons the modern JHP developed. Most thugs use FMJ as it's cheap and usually what they can get their hands on via theft or other. I'd guess is one were to do a modern study on the topic, they'd find the % of passthrough via LEO is much lower than it is for BGs, but just a guess on my part.
]Neutralizing a threat expeditiously does not always mean a fatality, and a fatality does not always mean the threat was stopped expeditiously.[/U]
A 9mm Shield or G43 saddles up plenty fast when the situation calls for a gun to have when you don't have a gun.
This^^^^^
You can kill someone with a rock, sharp stick or broken bottle, but that does not mean they are good options for a concealed carry weapon.
Exactly. Bullet design has changed dramatically since that time, and we don't even know what bullets were used in those reports. FMJ? Other? It's not terribly useful info in terms of what we have been discussing here, between the dates it happened and little intel on ammo used. In those sections where the bullet type mentioned, seems to indicated repeatedly FMJ, which will pass through people, and one of various reasons the modern JHP developed. Most thugs use FMJ as it's cheap and usually what they can get their hands on via theft or other. I'd guess is one were to do a modern study on the topic, they'd find the % of passthrough via LEO is much lower than it is for BGs, but just a guess on my part.
Agreed. I think most of the NYPD cases were RNL bullets and in the LAPD case they were using 230gr FMJ.
From a police training perspective I'm more concerned about misses than pass throughs.
Despite the fact that one icon on another site says, the people in the background are not just rocks, they do count.
Neutralizing a threat expeditiously does not always mean a fatality, and a fatality does not always mean the threat was stopped expeditiously.
A 9mm Shield or G43 saddles up plenty fast when the situation calls for a gun to have when you don't have a gun.
Neutralizing a threat expeditiously almost always means a fatality. If you shoot an armed assailant, you want to stop the next trigger press, that means hitting the CNS high enough to impair use of the hands. Unfortunately, that almost always means you make the assailant a quad if they survive. You can't be sure the person you shoot will curl up and say 'oh, I've been shot, time to quit' so expeditiously stopping almost always means a fatal outcome. Wish it was different, but it is not.
Seconding 26 on this one. Any OIS I've been privy to usually ended in the subject dying or being paralyzed and having to use a colostomy bag. This was with .45 ACP +P Winchester Rangers. .40s tended to be less severe when they survived. But a solid COM hit is a solid COM hit. Which was a heart shot.
I don't know anyone personally who has used 9MM except just casual BS with Dekalb Co folks who used Berettas for the longest time and I believe some flavor of +p+. Some of their special unit guys (as of 4 years ago at least) used HK USP .45s.
I don't think there really is a magic bullet. Most people just pounded target until they went limp or were trying to create distance while trying not to get shot themselves.
Some people may disagree, and I welcome any scientific data, but of my personal contacts and knowledge, .40 seemed to result in more suspect fatalities.
I, personally, don't care for .40 and only have one .40 that I never shoot but it has put a lot of folks in the dirt. I know that individual marksmanship and stress shooting carries the day in any OIS but while the .40 has its own quirks; it does get results. Plus when 9mm was scarce; .40 was still relatively abundant. It is snappy but so is 147 gr +P or 124 +p+.
It strays a bit from .25 but, I think a wider diameter gives you a bit more margin of error especially at typical shoot ranges (3yards usually, if not closer).
Speaking for myself, the biggest confidence booster aside from the Rogers Shooting School was years and years of PPC matches.
And, I know it is outdated, but one of the best books I ever read was by Joe Cirillo. He did Stakeout Squad in NY and while it may seem archaic he favored .45 and .44 SPL. He made a good point about hunting game with your duty gun. I think he even kept his own load data and an ammo journal. But then he was involved in far more OIS incidents than pretty much any American police.
But, all else being equal, a reasonable caliber matched with individual marksmanship and follow through, follow through, follow through (yes, had to say it three times. Brainwashing and all that) will be the deciding factor should an encounter turn into an armed confrontation. Which we all really, really pray doesn't happen.
johnnywitt
12-23-15, 13:26
IMO, the .25acp is currently an obsolete Cartridge. If you look at the historical context of the .25acp, it made sense at one time. The world consisted of all steel blow back pistols in .25, .32/7.65 browning, .25 & the .22RF.
In order to get something smaller and lighter weight than, say a PPK or a Colt 1903 sized gun that weighed in basically at a Glock 26 weight, you had to go to a .25acp. Also, the .25acp was designed as a round designed for a semi auto and is a Centerfire Cartridge. The .22RF still has an excellent record in shootings, but really needs to be used in a revolver due the inherent design of being a rimmed cartridge & being Rimfire.
The 7.65 Browning round loaded to the original JMB specs is like a 28GA shotgun and seems to punch way out of its weight class (European Police Data with attest to this), unlike the .25acp which has always been a dismal fight stopper. I still like a Chromed 1st Gen Kel-Tec P-32 in a UM #1 holster & front pocket carry. Best thing that Kelgren ever made IMO. 8rds and about 8oz loaded. Easy to shoot and damn accurate at close range with no real flash, or recoil. Just a very balanced cartridge. You need to use 7.65 Browning 73r FMJ with it though as the US .32acp is way too downloaded for liability purposes because of all the cheap crappy .32's that were produced early in the last century. YMMV.
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