View Full Version : Bacon Better than Lettuce for the environment?
According to a recent study (1), the answer is yes. As you'd expect, this study is giving vegetarians and the ilk total meltdowns. I like this study because it pokes overly dogmatic proponents of vegetarianism with a sharp stick. :cool:
Using some very hyped Titles like "Lettuce is ‘three times worse than bacon' for emissions and vegetarian diets could be bad for environment," (2) some papers hoping to cash in on the hysteria and are making big waves with it. Per usual, there's some truth among the hyperbole and the sub heading "Common vegetables ‘require more resources per calorie’ than many people realize, according to a team of scientists at the prestigious Carnegie Mellon University" is true. As usual the overly simple mantra "meat bad, plant based anything good" is false, and this recent study attempts to parse out the truths on that. The rebuttal by the Huff Post is actually not bad and summarizes the actual findings for non scientists as such:
"In other words, the researchers didn't find that vegetarianism is bad for the environment. They found that not every plant product is more environmentally friendly than every meat product."
The reality is however that few brain washed proponents of vegetarianism would be willing to even admit that much, and that's where they tend to fail miserably, along with a list of outdated totally debunked "facts" about human phys/bio such as "humans were not meant to eat meat" and other LOL nonsense that totally devalues any credibility they may have had.
(1) http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10669-015-9577-y
(2) http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/vegetarian-diet-bad-for-environment-meat-study-lettuce-three-times-worse-emissions-bacon-a6773671.html
(3) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/vegetarian-bad-for-environment-debunked_567072d7e4b0e292150f95a4
Not only does the pig and cow both create manure for fertilizer, for crops, but the corn to feed said pig and cow also creates oxygen. An acre of corn makes about the same amount of oxygen as an acre of rain forest.
The hides made the shoes that the yuppies wears, and the couch they sit on, and the seats in their car. The waste products at the kill plant made the yuppies dog, dog food.
They always talk animal cruelty. Yet no body talks about the unheard screams of the lettuce, carrots, asparagus, and corn, as they get savagely masticated, alive no less......
The bottom line is if you want to be good for the environment, don't eat. At all...ever.....
ColtSeavers
12-18-15, 13:40
http://www.betterthanpants.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/h/e/hey-vegetarians-my-food-poops-on-your-food-thumbnail.jpg
Not my image, but illustrates the point.
SilverBullet432
12-18-15, 15:13
Doesn't matter what you eat. You will still fart out methane and h2s... :sarcastic: cows fart out a shit ton of methane... Dead plants in swamps release it too... And decomposition of organic matter produces emissions... Meat or plant.
wildcard600
12-18-15, 17:17
Some of us choose vegetarian lifestyles due to ehtical reasons and nothing else.
All food production is harmful to the environment and livestock/meat can be much worse than raising crops.
40% of the earth's ice free surface is used in food production. 30% of that is used to support livestock.
Click bait title is click bait.
Moose-Knuckle
12-18-15, 17:33
One day bacon will be banned in this country cause it's not halal and offensive to our benevolent islamic guests . . .
Maybe then and only then people will take up arms .
Moose-Knuckle
12-18-15, 17:44
Plants are living organisms too, but it's "okay" to murder and consume them . . .
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5776/23207433444_0eb371ed36_b.jpg
wildcard600
12-18-15, 18:20
Plants are living organisms too, but it's "okay" to murder and consume them . . .
When someone can prove plant sentience without resorting to paranormal quackery, someone might take that line of argument seriously.
When someone can prove plant sentience without resorting to paranormal quackery, someone might take that line of argument seriously.
If the lettuce made noise when you killed, would you feel different?
Serious question?
If the lettuce made noise when you killed, would you feel different?
Serious question?
It does kinda make a crunch sound, soooo?
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wildcard600
12-18-15, 18:51
If the lettuce made noise when you killed, would you feel different?
Serious question?
Is the noise being made the result of stimuli to the plant's sensory organs or conscious perception to the act of being killed ? Yes.
Since plants lack both of those, i don't see where this is going.
Is the noise being made the result of stimuli to the plant's sensory organs or conscious perception to the act of being killed ? Yes.
Since plants lack both of those, i don't see where this is going.
What ever feels good to you. Just because they don't scream doesn't mean you didn't eat another organism.
wildcard600
12-18-15, 22:43
What ever feels good to you. Just because they don't scream doesn't mean you didn't eat another organism.
If you don't understand the difference between sentient life and plants, i don't know what to tell you.
^hilarious conversation.
Op, I always love the line "meat rots for 24hr in your gut". They did some studies and found that plants actually rot, because we need bacteria to break them down for us. Meat, not so much.
If you don't understand the difference between sentient life and plants, i don't know what to tell you.
I understand what you are saying and certainly do not want you to take the following as an attempt to 1) belittle your choice or 2) convert you.
Those who have religious values of the Christian variety (me! me! me!) can easily point you to Genesis 9:3 - Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
Regardless of your beliefs the fact is that all animal species, except man, are prey to some other species, and that in order for balance to be maintained harvesting must take place. The natural lifespan is not sufficient to maintain balance. Obviously man has upset that balance by either eradicating or nearly eradicating many of the prime predators in that harvest.
Animals which we consume are not sentient, despite the fact that they breathe, and may sense they are alive, they have no sense of self. It is immoral to treat any form of life with disdain and cause it to suffer, it is also immoral to waste, but it is not immoral to harvest and consume.
wildcard600
12-18-15, 23:38
^hilarious conversation.
Op, I always love the line "meat rots for 24hr in your gut". They did some studies and found that plants actually rot, because we need bacteria to break them down for us. Meat, not so much.
try eating no fiber for a month and let us know how that turns out for you.
wildcard600
12-18-15, 23:43
I understand what you are saying and certainly do not want you to take the following as an attempt to 1) belittle your choice or 2) convert you.
Those who have religious values of the Christian variety (me! me! me!) can easily point you to Genesis 9:3 - Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
Regardless of your beliefs the fact is that all animal species, except man, are prey to some other species, and that in order for balance to be maintained harvesting must take place. The natural lifespan is not sufficient to maintain balance. Obviously man has upset that balance by either eradicating or nearly eradicating many of the prime predators in that harvest.
Animals which we consume are not sentient, despite the fact that they breathe, and may sense they are alive, they have no sense of self. It is immoral to treat any form of life with disdain and cause it to suffer, it is also immoral to waste, but it is not immoral to harvest and consume.
Higher cognitive ability (self awareness) is not a requirement for sentience, unless you want to argue with Merriam-Webster. I don't prescribe to biblical belief systems.
Thanks.
I don't prescribe to biblical belief systems.
I don't prescribe, or subscribe, as the case may be, to left wing belief systems that infer that is is in any way un-"ethical" to humanely kill and eat animals.
Moose-Knuckle
12-19-15, 02:42
#PLANTLIVESMATTER
Some of us choose vegetarian lifestyles due to ehtical reasons and nothing else.
All food production is harmful to the environment and livestock/meat can be much worse than raising crops.
40% of the earth's ice free surface is used in food production. 30% of that is used to support livestock.
Click bait title is click bait.
Ethical/moral/religious reasons are a different matter and I support it on the surface. The title is Click bait, but the fact remains on the findings that it's not black/white as to plant based vs animal based foods and their environmental impacts.
^hilarious conversation.
Op, I always love the line "meat rots for 24hr in your gut". They did some studies and found that plants actually rot, because we need bacteria to break them down for us. Meat, not so much.
That's the problem and where vegetarians and supporters there of lose all validity per OP comments. If they let go of the outdated debunked dogma many of them cling to, they could make far more headway in convincing people to eat less meat and plant based foods, which is a good idea.
try eating no fiber for a month and let us know how that turns out for you.
There's no reason to. Humans are not carnivores, they are omnivores, and a mixture of plant and animal based foods optimal to our phys/bio. Most people would benefit from eating more plant based food and less animal based nutrition.
wildcard600
12-19-15, 08:09
There's no reason to. Humans are not carnivores, they are omnivores, and a mixture of plant and animal based foods optimal to our phys/bio. Most people would benefit from eating more plant based food and less animal based nutrition.
i was merely pointing out the idea that plant matter sits in you gut and "rots" is also blatantly wrong.
i was merely pointing out the idea that plant matter sits in you gut and "rots" is also blatantly wrong.
Some fermentation takes place of course, and how much, what products made from it (healthy vs unhealthy fermentation products), etc, etc dependent on diet composition which impacts gut flora. I think it's a non productive discussion really.
wildcard600
12-19-15, 08:23
I don't prescribe, or subscribe, as the case may be, to left wing belief systems that infer that is is in any way un-"ethical" to humanely kill and eat animals.
It not a partisan issue despite how badly you may wish to make it so.
@wildcard600
I am always curios to know what vegetarians think about surviving on an all plant diet if you didn't have the ease of having your foods provided for you by a government/third party.
Could you thrive or even just survive if you had to forage and provide for all of your food yourself- and only eat plants?
I love veggies, seeds, roots, fruit, etc. And I also love meat.
I really can't see how a human would sustain itself in the long term if only eating plant matter and having to forage or produce all of it themselves. Do you believe that would be possible?
Similarly- human beings would not survive long on a meat only diet either.
We need balance. Balance being a shit ton of veggies, fruits, roots and seeds and a good deal of meat and animal byproducts.
wildcard600
12-19-15, 09:17
@wildcard600
I am always curios to know what vegetarians think about surviving on an all plant diet if you didn't have the ease of having your foods provided for you by a government/third party.
Could you thrive or even just survive if you had to forage and provide for all of your food yourself- and only eat plants?
I love veggies, seeds, roots, fruit, etc. And I also love meat.
I really can't see how a human would sustain itself in the long term if only eating plant matter and having to forage or produce all of it themselves. Do you believe that would be possible?
Similarly- human beings would not survive long on a meat only diet either.
We need balance. Balance being a shit ton of veggies, fruits, roots and seeds and a good deal of meat and animal byproducts.
Luckily we live in the modern age and the consumption of animal flesh isn't required for my continued existence. Its a choice i make because i believe better options than killing animals for food are available. Were I to suddenly find myself transported back to 10,000 BCE ? Well, you gotta do what you gotta do in order to survive.
i was merely pointing out the idea that plant matter sits in you gut and "rots" is also blatantly wrong.
Rotting is breakdown from bacteria. You can't digest most plant material without bactera. You can digest meat without it. So technically plant matter rots in your guts. It's not a bad thing either, but some vegetarians act like it is, and their argument is wrong to begin with. Just a little irony I've found over the years. Obviously we balance is best.
Edit: time is irrelevant, it's the way it's broken down.
Anyone want to know how someone is a vegetarian in the regular world? They'll tell you.... repeatedly. Kinda like cross fitters.
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try eating no fiber for a month and let us know how that turns out for you.
I eat virtually no fiber. What do you think the down-sides should be?
I eat virtually no fiber. What do you think the down-sides should be?
Lack of fiber is associated with a long list of diseases, including CVD, diabetes, and some cancer, etc and a key short coming of SAD:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/fiber/
Luckily we live in the modern age and the consumption of animal flesh isn't required for my continued existence. Its a choice i make because i believe better options than killing animals for food are available. Were I to suddenly find myself transported back to 10,000 BCE ? Well, you gotta do what you gotta do in order to survive.
I think "better" is the term there that catches my attention. I agree that alternative options exist. Better would be a matter of debate and "better for what?" the key issue there. I can understand both sides of the issue here, but vegetarians lose me the millisecond they start throwing out those fully debunked "facts" as mentioned before.
I think the vegetarian community would make far greater headway in their positions if they dropped the old dogmas that ruin any credibility they may have and follow your more simple pragmatic approach not dependent on failed positions repeated.
"Everybody gotta die sometime, Red"
---P. Sgt Bob Barnes (peace be upon him)
The fact is, something must die in order for us to eat, live free of disease carrying destructive vermin, build malls, roads, schools, hospitals, plow fields, plant crops and harvest them. Plant life has just as much will to survive as any animal and have developed mechanisms of defense and offense. Plants fight each other for living space, nutrients & light. Plants kill each other. Pine needles kill off other vegetation so pine trees can keep down competing undergrowth. Fact is, many animals have to die to put vegetables on our plates
The fact is, something must die in order for us to eat, live free of disease carrying destructive vermin, build malls, roads, schools, hospitals, plow fields, plant crops and harvest them. Plant life has just as much will to survive as any animal and have developed mechanisms of defense and offense. Plants fight each other for living space, nutrients & light. Plants kill each other. Pine needles kill off other vegetation so pine trees can keep down competing undergrowth. Fact is, many animals have to die to put vegetables on our plates
Changing topics a bit, it's interesting to note how humanity shapes how other creatures succeed in the ongoing battle. The "fight" between trees and grasses favored grasses due to humans cutting down trees and cultivating the grasses. No real value to the thread topic, but a semi interesting fyi.
Higher cognitive ability (self awareness) is not a requirement for sentience, unless you want to argue with Merriam-Webster. I don't prescribe to biblical belief systems.
Thanks.
According to them, I've been wrong for 61 years, well maybe 42 or 43 (HS and college biology), certainly not going to argue.
FWIW I no longer hunt, it never gave me the 'connection' with the past that it gives others, and I'm not perfect, I had to dispatch too many pheasant and deer after I found them - so I guess I was kind of aware of the meaning of sentience. Quite simply there is no need for me to hunt, and it gave me less pleasure than recreational shooting. I enjoy being out on a cold day and laying on a bank with the sun beating down on me more than I ever enjoyed shooting a deer.
Regardless of that, or our differing beliefs on how the system started, at this point we live in an unbalanced system. The earth's over population of humans requires too much land dedicated to agriculture for the natural cycle to function. If there was no harvest of animals then there would be wasting, disease, and ultimately starvation for hundreds of animals. In that respect, I think hunting is an ethical practice, even though it is one that I no longer enjoy.
In terms of the beef, pork, and fowl producers, as long as the animals are humanely treated in their lives and dispatched humanely, I have no qualms. If we all went vegan, it would initially require more land, and within a decade the meat source populations - cattle, hogs, chickens, etc. would be substantially down. At that point what do we do? Keep them as pets? Let them roam? Neuter and spay so they eventually die out? Should we engage in tribal warfare to control man's population?
The natural cycle is prey, predator, consumption.
JM .02
I eat virtually no fiber. What do you think the down-sides should be?
- increased risk of diverticulosis/diverticulitis
- increased risk of hemorrhoids
- increased risk of colorectal cancer
These folks are my favorite. I actually met a girl who claimed to adhere to it. I didn't talk to her following that. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/19/6fa61c91f064ddaf447c17ca69c71388.jpg
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I used to be more carnivore than omnivore. My wife got into only eating "real food" and at first I thought she had gone off the deep end. After eating this way for the past 3 years, I find myself eating as an omnivore, but with far more vegetables and whole grains and less meat - essentially flipping the food pyramid. I don't believe we are meant to be vegetarians or vegans from a biological or physiological standpoint. However, the western diet is crap. And the notion that high carb, low fat is "heart healthy" is also a farce. I believe the key is to eat real food - unprocessed foods, true whole grains, vegetables, fruit, and yes...meat. We no longer count carbs, fat, or calories. We shop at whole foods (great selection of locally sourced produce and meats) and the local farmers market. Our meats (including bacon), eggs, and dairy are sourced locally and the farm/ practice good animal husbandry and humane treatment.
Animals, grains, and veggies are tasty. It is all about eating the right kinds and in the right amounts.
I used to be more carnivore than omnivore. My wife got into only eating "real food" and at first I thought she had gone off the deep end. After eating this way for the past 3 years, I find myself eating as an omnivore, but with far more vegetables and whole grains and less meat - essentially flipping the food pyramid. I don't believe we are meant to be vegetarians or vegans from a biological or physiological standpoint. However, the western diet is crap. And the notion that high carb, low fat is "heart healthy" is also a farce. I believe the key is to eat real food - unprocessed foods, true whole grains, vegetables, fruit, and yes...meat. We no longer count carbs, fat, or calories. We shop at whole foods (great selection of locally sourced produce and meats) and the local farmers market. Our meats (including bacon), eggs, and dairy are sourced locally and the farm/ practice good animal husbandry and humane treatment.
Animals, grains, and veggies are tasty. It is all about eating the right kinds and in the right amounts.
Bingo.
wildcard600
12-19-15, 17:33
According to them, I've been wrong for 61 years, well maybe 42 or 43 (HS and college biology), certainly not going to argue.
FWIW I no longer hunt, it never gave me the 'connection' with the past that it gives others, and I'm not perfect, I had to dispatch too many pheasant and deer after I found them - so I guess I was kind of aware of the meaning of sentience. Quite simply there is no need for me to hunt, and it gave me less pleasure than recreational shooting. I enjoy being out on a cold day and laying on a bank with the sun beating down on me more than I ever enjoyed shooting a deer.
Regardless of that, or our differing beliefs on how the system started, at this point we live in an unbalanced system. The earth's over population of humans requires too much land dedicated to agriculture for the natural cycle to function. If there was no harvest of animals then there would be wasting, disease, and ultimately starvation for hundreds of animals. In that respect, I think hunting is an ethical practice, even though it is one that I no longer enjoy.
In terms of the beef, pork, and fowl producers, as long as the animals are humanely treated in their lives and dispatched humanely, I have no qualms. If we all went vegan, it would initially require more land, and within a decade the meat source populations - cattle, hogs, chickens, etc. would be substantially down. At that point what do we do? Keep them as pets? Let them roam? Neuter and spay so they eventually die out? Should we engage in tribal warfare to control man's population?
The natural cycle is prey, predator, consumption.
JM .02
Somewhat paradoxically, i have no problem with hunting as long as it is conducted in an ethical fashion and the animal is eaten. I dont partake personally due to my ethical beliefs, but i understand the many many benefits to not only the environment but the welfare of the game animals themselves (disease and overpopulation prevention as you pointed out).
Like many things its a complex issue that cannot simply be distilled down to simple soundbites and bumper sticker slogans (at least for me).
Somewhat paradoxically, i have no problem with hunting as long as it is conducted in an ethical fashion and the animal is eaten. I dont partake personally due to my ethical beliefs, but i understand the many many benefits to not only the environment but the welfare of the game animals themselves (disease and overpopulation prevention as you pointed out).
Like many things its a complex issue that cannot simply be distilled down to simple soundbites and bumper sticker slogans (at least for me).
Well, you have my respect. I appreciate that your not delusional ( not completely at least) about it.
I know several vegans, by choice and by health issues.
Ozone treatment at veggie pack houses, modern logistics, an better variety selection in crops had allowed veganism to flourish.
You really should try the bacon though, you might change your mind about being vegan.
I love a completely self-provided meal. Venison I harvested, homegrown peppers, and wild mushrooms I picked. Can't argue that's bad for the emvironment.
Since we're on the topic, I got in an argument with a kid when we were in college about meat and vegetables. Found out I was right and pork has more vitamins than broccoli. Like everything in life, it's all about balance. Even too many anioxidants are bad.
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