View Full Version : Eotech EXPS3 initial Cold Weather test
azoutdoorsman
12-18-15, 12:25
I did a little experiment with my EO today:
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/761/23722055372_30ce5408e3_o.png (https://flic.kr/p/C9eJAG)Screenshot_2015-12-18-12-09-33 (https://flic.kr/p/C9eJAG) by azoutdoorsman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28481524@N03/), on Flickr
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/724/23747932861_fda1eac190_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Cbwn5i)2015-12-18_12-08-23 (https://flic.kr/p/Cbwn5i) by azoutdoorsman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28481524@N03/), on Flickr
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5819/23747917331_3487d9c6de_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Cbwhsx)2015-12-18_12-07-15 (https://flic.kr/p/Cbwhsx) by azoutdoorsman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28481524@N03/), on Flickr
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/687/23831179675_f29062a920_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/CiT2sc)2015-12-18_01-02-35 (https://flic.kr/p/CiT2sc) by azoutdoorsman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28481524@N03/), on Flickr
No zero shift that I could discern. The front and rear lenses on the EOtech were a little fogged up from condensation, but it was on the OUTSIDE of the lens and wiped off easily.
Sight was outside approximately an hour. Checking the zero against the sights eliminates ammo as a variable, but is less precise than actually firing the rifle. However, I am confident that I could have hit a torso at 300 yards before and after the temp change.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/732/23204384713_6a2a0c8481_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Bmux9v)2015-12-18_01-03-28 (https://flic.kr/p/Bmux9v) by azoutdoorsman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28481524@N03/), on Flickr
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5781/23748738981_5d5769d75f_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/CbAuGV)2015-12-18_01-06-28 (https://flic.kr/p/CbAuGV) by azoutdoorsman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28481524@N03/), on Flickr
UPDATE: I left the upper in the trunk of my car overnight where it reached 23F last night. No shift. I didn't take a pic because it looks like the other two, and it's not THAT much colder than the first test. When it gets closer to 0F I'll do it again.
What are you still doing with an EOTech?? ;)
Yeah, I've used mine in temps from the mid 90°s to the -10°s and never experienced any zero shift either.
azoutdoorsman
12-18-15, 13:15
What are you still doing with an EOTech?? ;)
Yeah, I've used mine in temps from the mid 90°s to the -10°s and never experienced any zero shift either.
I'm not a freeloader:cool:
WickedWillis
12-18-15, 15:24
I'm not a freeloader:cool:
There are thousands who cannot say the same. When all of this happened, I was amazed how fast people turned on the products they had been standing by for years.
I'm not a freeloader:cool: Got it,all of the EOtech issues are made up.:thank_you2:
WickedWillis
12-18-15, 16:22
Got it,all of the EOtech issues are made up.:thank_you2:
I'm positive that's not what the OP meant. EOtech clearly had issues, hence the findings of the Government, but that still does not translate to every shooter using their products.
azoutdoorsman
12-18-15, 19:27
Got it,all of the EOtech issues are made up.:thank_you2:
Before this recent hubub, I had never heard of zero shift problems, had you? Battery terminals failing, dimming reticle yes, but never the temperature dependent zero shift.
Then, the report comes out and suddenly thousands of users return their (still functioning) units for a full refund.
Before this recent hubub, I had never heard of zero shift problems, had you? Battery terminals failing, dimming reticle yes, but never the temperature dependent zero shift.
Then, the report comes out and suddenly thousands of users return their (still functioning) units for a full refund. I like your comment "I am not a freeloader".So anyone who has had a issue with there EOtech like I have had with mine and sent back to EOtech to make it right is a freeloader?Just curious? If your EOtech is trouble free good for you.Don,t lump all folks into one basket who have had issues with there EOtechs.
The same crowd who bought them because of the .mil use are now returning them because of the lack of .mil use, regardless of issues.
I'm keeping mine.
No there were few, if any, reports of zero shift before this report because "most" people will never use them in those conditions.
Regardless, it is a free country for the time being and people can do as they see fit.
Let me see, the company lied, committed fraud, covered up and built iffy sights but still has happy end users. Well I hope when they finally fail it will not be at a time when they are truly needed but knowing Murphy.......
You can pretty much guarantee that the majority of people seeking a refund never had an issue with the zero.
I'm guessing the majority just want to offload their RDS for retail value.
Others are just flaking out about EOTech going out of business or saying they can't "trust" the optic anymore.
Let me see, the company lied, committed fraud, covered up and built iffy sights but still has happy end users. Well I hope when they finally fail it will not be at a time when they are truly needed but knowing Murphy.......
What problems did you personally have with yours?
madisonsfinest
12-18-15, 21:12
My department dropped them from our approved list. It's worthless to me if I can't mount it
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My department dropped them from our approved list. It's worthless to me if I can't mount it
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Same. I'd have kept my 553 but now that's it's prohibited due to liability issues I have no option but to return it to fund an approved replacement.
I used a 512 for a very long time until I switched to a EXPS2-2. Never had a problem with it either. That was until this past August. Both shut down on me in about 90-95 degree weather. Changed batteries, still nothing. Came back on after about an hour or so. If there was zero shift, it was negligible. That being said, before it came out they lied...whatever, they discovered a defect therefore fix my sights and I continue on with life. Knowing they lied and it's been an ongoing issue and essentially covered up? The hell with that, why should I trust them especially when I've had the very problem that was described in all this debacle? Minus the zero shift of course. Which mine could've shifted. I didn't bag it and check nor did I throw it in a rest to see. I had no idea it was a problem until recently, just thought it was some weird fluke.
I even contact Eotech and they played it all off telling me to send it in to be looked over by their people. I even think they used the words "very interested in this problem" in the email. **** them. They knew exactly what the problem was at the time they replied and typed a reply suggesting they were shocked that I typed that email regarding not just one but two of my sights. I may even still have the emails.
My EXPS was on my work rifle. The last thing I need is that thing to shut down and shift zero on me or shift period and me not know about it doing so. Therefore, it went back. Call me a freeloader, I really don't care. They lied, even played it off directly to me prior to this going public and I don't feel the least bit guilty about getting my money back from those shills.
wolf_walker
12-19-15, 01:46
I just wanna know where I can buy one of those returned sights cheap, surely they aren't just going to junk em all.
What problems did you personally have with yours?
Ha, you got me, Aimpoint guy here never owned one. But how does that change the facts? The U.S. military seems to have had problems and the company was caught covering up. You are defending a substandard optic that has had issues for years made by a company that had no problem not telling our warfighters that their shiny new sight might not work when needed. The fact that L3 is buying them all back with no questions asked speaks volumns about the whole matter. The diehard fanboy thing is getting pretty old, if they do release the returns you can bet it will be as an airsoft product with a big disclaimer "Not for duty or self defense use".
I run Aimpoints so I have no dog in this fight. My buddies that do have Eotech's are taking this opportunity to fix their original mistake and finally get an Aimpoint! They haven't had any problems but I preach the battery life thing and they are starting to listen. If they Eotechs never had any of these problems and just suffered from their Fisher Price battery life I say they are still worthless for defending your life. Im sure some may not agree but the battery life and auto turn off are deal breakers for me.
I would also love to see a torture test on the Eotech mimicking the LAV/DD Aimpoint test where they blew the glass out of the Aimpoint and the red dot was still there and on zero. Just curious to see.
Ha, you got me, Aimpoint guy here never owned one.
Then your input means naught.
The diehard fanboy thing is getting pretty old,
It sure is.
Eurodriver
12-19-15, 07:36
Edited
You can pretty much guarantee that the majority of people seeking a refund never had an issue with the zero.
I'm guessing the majority just want to offload their RDS for retail value.
Others are just flaking out about EOTech going out of business or saying they can't "trust" the optic anymore.
I don't think there could possibly be a worse group of followers than "we" gun people. If LAV came on here today and said he used snot to lube his training guns, overnight that would become "the" new popular thing. (no disrespect, just making a point).
I would wager less than 5% (that's generous) of the people on this forum will ever shoot in the conditions required to make these fail. Ever. Me included. Aimpoint is great, we already knew that. We knew that before all of us bought an Eotech, yet bunches of us still did. The company lied to keep from costing itself a multi-million dollar recall program over a defect that 99.999% of users will never find/realize? Wow, that's called business. The military/Leo implications aside, (I understand the gov dumping them) the civilian mass exodus from Eotech is ridiculous. I think the whole thing is pretty laughable. If General Motors was to come out and say that they discovered if you drive your suburban at speeds above 150 mph, it "may" cause mild drivetrain problems, I'm pretty sure I'd be ok with the knowledge, knowing that the likelihood of me using it in those conditions is near zero.
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wolf_walker
12-19-15, 13:43
if they do release the returns you can bet it will be as an airsoft product with a big disclaimer "Not for duty or self defense use".
I'd still buy a handful if they were cheap enough, eotech on my .22, eotech on my lever 3030, eotech on my toaster, eotech on my slingshot, eotech hood ornament....
Can anyone think of a product, in the consumer market, that something went south like this and they were bought back no questions asked
at retail price in masse? It's got to have happened but I can't think of it, especially years after the fact. I don't see VW rushing to buy back
TDI's with that ongoing fiasco.
I don't think there could possibly be a worse group of followers than "we" gun people. If LAV came on here today and said he used snot to lube his training guns, overnight that would become "the" new popular thing. (no disrespect, just making a point).
I would wager less than 5% (that's generous) of the people on this forum will ever shoot in the conditions required to make these fail. Ever. Me included. Aimpoint is great, we already knew that. We knew that before all of us bought an Eotech, yet bunches of us still did. The company lied to keep from costing itself a multi-million dollar recall program over a defect that 99.999% of users will never find/realize? Wow, that's called business. The military/Leo implications aside, (I understand the gov dumping them) the civilian mass exodus from Eotech is ridiculous. I think the whole thing is pretty laughable. If General Motors was to come out and say that they discovered if you drive your suburban at speeds above 150 mph, it "may" cause mild drivetrain problems, I'm pretty sure I'd be ok with the knowledge, knowing that the likelihood of me using it in those conditions is near zero.
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Well said.
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azoutdoorsman
12-19-15, 14:48
I like your comment "I am not a freeloader".So anyone who has had a issue with there EOtech like I have had with mine and sent back to EOtech to make it right is a freeloader?Just curious? If your EOtech is trouble free good for you.Don,t lump all folks into one basket who have had issues with there EOtechs.
If you had a problem that's one thing. If you've never had a problem, that's freeloading.
Late 90's to mid 00's Porsches are known to have an intermediate shaft bearing fail. If it failed under warranty, they would fix it. If the car was out of warranty, customer paid. No one got a full refund for their whole (used) car, especially if it was problem free. The bearing would grenade the engine and was a $8k or more repair.
Those returning their used Eotechs for full refund are now setting a difficult and unfair precedent for manufacturers and retailers to oblige.
azoutdoorsman
12-19-15, 14:52
Let me see, the company lied, committed fraud, covered up and built iffy sights but still has happy end users. Well I hope when they finally fail it will not be at a time when they are truly needed but knowing Murphy.......
Eotechs have been used to shoot quite a number of people in the face, in varying temperatures.
If you believe this whole ordeal has no political motive, that's awful naive.
azoutdoorsman
12-19-15, 14:54
I just wanna know where I can buy one of those returned sights cheap, surely they aren't just going to junk em all.
Me too. Can't wait for the "improved" version.
azoutdoorsman
12-19-15, 14:56
I used a 512 for a very long time until I switched to a EXPS2-2. Never had a problem with it either. That was until this past August. Both shut down on me in about 90-95 degree weather. Changed batteries, still nothing. Came back on after about an hour or so. If there was zero shift, it was negligible. That being said, before it came out they lied...whatever, they discovered a defect therefore fix my sights and I continue on with life. Knowing they lied and it's been an ongoing issue and essentially covered up? The hell with that, why should I trust them especially when I've had the very problem that was described in all this debacle? Minus the zero shift of course. Which mine could've shifted. I didn't bag it and check nor did I throw it in a rest to see. I had no idea it was a problem until recently, just thought it was some weird fluke.
I even contact Eotech and they played it all off telling me to send it in to be looked over by their people. I even think they used the words "very interested in this problem" in the email. **** them. They knew exactly what the problem was at the time they replied and typed a reply suggesting they were shocked that I typed that email regarding not just one but two of my sights. I may even still have the emails.
My EXPS was on my work rifle. The last thing I need is that thing to shut down and shift zero on me or shift period and me not know about it doing so. Therefore, it went back. Call me a freeloader, I really don't care. They lied, even played it off directly to me prior to this going public and I don't feel the least bit guilty about getting my money back from those shills.
I had similar problem with my Aimpoint T1. When I contacted Aimpoint they were also aware of the problem. Are they fraudsters too?
Turns out the battery cap required too much tightening force to complete the circuit and was unreliable. They handled it, I was satisfied.
azoutdoorsman
12-19-15, 14:57
I run Aimpoints so I have no dog in this fight. My buddies that do have Eotech's are taking this opportunity to fix their original mistake and finally get an Aimpoint! They haven't had any problems but I preach the battery life thing and they are starting to listen. If they Eotechs never had any of these problems and just suffered from their Fisher Price battery life I say they are still worthless for defending your life. Im sure some may not agree but the battery life and auto turn off are deal breakers for me.
I would also love to see a torture test on the Eotech mimicking the LAV/DD Aimpoint test where they blew the glass out of the Aimpoint and the red dot was still there and on zero. Just curious to see.
The Aimpoint had zero shift in that test.
azoutdoorsman
12-19-15, 15:04
The same crowd who bought them because of the .mil use are now returning them because of the lack of .mil use, regardless of issues.
I'm keeping mine.
No there were few, if any, reports of zero shift before this report because "most" people will never use them in those conditions.
Regardless, it is a free country for the time being and people can do as they see fit.
From what I've read, the military is still using them.
wolf_walker
12-19-15, 16:09
If you had a problem that's one thing. If you've never had a problem, that's freeloading.
Those returning their used Eotechs for full refund are now setting a difficult and unfair precedent for manufacturers and retailers to oblige.
That is a very adult, responsible, practical and American view on the matter. Thank you.
Metric Matt
12-19-15, 16:56
I had a 552 that I had to send in twice within a two year period for a dim reticle due to gas leaks. The second time they quoted me something like $140 to fix it when it was $80 the first time. I had to point out to them that I had sent in the unit for the same problem already, they did come down on the repair cost after they looked up the previous repair order. So over $200 dumped into a $500 optic that really only saw moderate use. I had lost confidence in it's durability even before the news came out, so quite frankly I jumped on the chance to return it. I liked using it quite a bit, the reticle worked quite well with a magnifier too. Too bad.
azoutdoorsman
12-19-15, 17:50
I had a 552 that I had to send in twice within a two year period for a dim reticle due to gas leaks. The second time they quoted me something like $140 to fix it when it was $80 the first time. I had to point out to them that I had sent in the unit for the same problem already, they did come down on the repair cost after they looked up the previous repair order. So over $200 dumped into a $500 optic that really only saw moderate use. I had lost confidence in it's durability even before the news came out, so quite frankly I jumped on the chance to return it. I liked using it quite a bit, the reticle worked quite well with a magnifier too. Too bad.
The reticle is superior to anything else available, in my opinion. For me it's faster in close, and more precise out to mid distances.
Sorry about your troubles, and I've seen emails from Eotech stating the seal problem is now permanently fixed. Whether or not that's true remains to be seen.
Those problems are independent of the zero shift problems though.
It is very possible that the OP may not have issues as many don't.
I have sent back Eotech stuff for issues. I have also sent back Aimpoints, Trijicons, Leupolds, S&Bs, Zeiss, etc. That does not mean that every product those manufacturers make are not good by a long shot.
Do some Eotechs shift, yes some do. Send back the ones with issues, not every one of them.
It is very possible that the OP may not have issues as many don't.
I have sent back Eotech stuff for issues. I have also sent back Aimpoints, Trijicons, Leupolds, S&Bs, Zeiss, etc. That does not mean that every product those manufacturers make are not good by a long shot.
Do some Eotechs shift, yes some do. Send back the ones with issues, not every one of them.
Wise words.
Mysteryman
12-19-15, 20:51
I don't think there could possibly be a worse group of followers than "we" gun people. If LAV came on here today and said he used snot to lube his training guns, overnight that would become "the" new popular thing. (no disrespect, just making a point).
I would wager less than 5% (that's generous) of the people on this forum will ever shoot in the conditions required to make these fail. Ever. Me included. Aimpoint is great, we already knew that. We knew that before all of us bought an Eotech, yet bunches of us still did. The company lied to keep from costing itself a multi-million dollar recall program over a defect that 99.999% of users will never find/realize? Wow, that's called business. The military/Leo implications aside, (I understand the gov dumping them) the civilian mass exodus from Eotech is ridiculous. I think the whole thing is pretty laughable. If General Motors was to come out and say that they discovered if you drive your suburban at speeds above 150 mph, it "may" cause mild drivetrain problems, I'm pretty sure I'd be ok with the knowledge, knowing that the likelihood of me using it in those conditions is near zero.
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The company lied to generate revenue. Lying to save money from a recall is asinine as it will come back to haunt you for far more than a recall is worth. Hence the current refund offering and the drama associated. The sole purpose of the refund is to reduce the severity of the class action lawsuits that are happening and will likely continue to happen. Eotech doesn't give a sh*t about the customer, just their bottom line.
The defects are real and they effect all Eotech sights. The evidence is listed on the eotechlawsuit.com website and has been and is admitted to be the case by EOTECH THEMSELVES. It amazes me how many people seem to believe they know the optic better than the people who build them. Eotech admits they are faulty by design and NSWC and USSOCOM have tested and proven that to be the case. There is little doubt that the optics are not reliable, what is in question is just when they will fail. The temperature shift, the parallax issues, inconsistent adjustment values, the dimming due to moisture inside the optic, failed battery contacts, battery drain when the optic is off and the poor battery life are all other real issues.
I'd still buy a handful if they were cheap enough, eotech on my .22, eotech on my lever 3030, eotech on my toaster, eotech on my slingshot, eotech hood ornament....
Can anyone think of a product, in the consumer market, that something went south like this and they were bought back no questions asked
at retail price in masse? It's got to have happened but I can't think of it, especially years after the fact. I don't see VW rushing to buy back
TDI's with that ongoing fiasco.
VW didn't sell defective products, they simply lied about the emissions values, so what. The car still runs as advertised. Again, Eotech is offering full refunds as a way to mitigate huge lawsuit payouts.
If you had a problem that's one thing. If you've never had a problem, that's freeloading.
Late 90's to mid 00's Porsches are known to have an intermediate shaft bearing fail. If it failed under warranty, they would fix it. If the car was out of warranty, customer paid. No one got a full refund for their whole (used) car, especially if it was problem free. The bearing would grenade the engine and was a $8k or more repair.
Those returning their used Eotechs for full refund are now setting a difficult and unfair precedent for manufacturers and retailers to oblige.
Eotech is setting the precident, not the consumer. If they simply offered a poorly built product then it would sit amongst other low end brands like Tasco, NcStar and Leapers. The difference is they lied about the products capabilities and failed to make any attempt to solve the issues. It is this difference that has spurred Eotech to offer the refund. Avoiding lawsuits and their payouts is priority one. Other manufacturers offer to repair or replace the defective item under warranty. Eotech has no fix for the problem, they lied about the quality of the product. Call me crazy but if I was sold a product under false claims I would want my money back as well. Perhaps not being scammed is freeloading to you, I call it consumer protection. Then again, I didn't buy an Eotech.
I had similar problem with my Aimpoint T1. When I contacted Aimpoint they were also aware of the problem. Are they fraudsters too?
Turns out the battery cap required too much tightening force to complete the circuit and was unreliable. They handled it, I was satisfied.
There you have it, there was a defective battery cap, not an inherent design flaw(also known as a poor design) and they found it and fixed it. I hate to be the broken record here but Eotech isn't offering a fix, because there isn't one. The optic does not perform anywhere near the level they claim it does/can. They got caught and there is no solution. Eotech is in damage control mode, and minimizing the volume of people involved in lawsuits will cost them less in the end. Can't sue them if you got your money back now can you? The other thing the refund does(or they hope it does) is to reduce the amount and duration of bad press that Eotech/L3 is receiving. For those who still haven't figured it out, the refund also looks like a "gesture of good faith" which it's not.
On a final note, wait till some LEO's or servicemen's family can prove(or a lawyer can prove) their loved one was wounded or killed because their Eotech failed them.
MM
I concur that L3's handling of this entire situation, on the surface, appears to be sub standard.
ETA: I'm not referring to the full refunds, obviously that is fine. I'm referring to their communication of this issue to their customers.
Like I said up in the thread, I'm keeping all of mine as I'm not LE.
wolf_walker
12-19-15, 23:40
I just don't get some of you guys. They are giving full refunds, to anyone that can come up with one from ebay even for less money, even if they don't have a problem, with no questions asked (this is my understanding of the return process thus far), and that isn't good enough? You gotta be kidding me....
Nobody offers blanket full refunds. It just don't happen, not in Merika. It's always cheaper in the long run to jerk around in court for years.
Look up the Porsche IMS settlement that the fellow mentioned earlier, they paid out jack crap for a complete joke of a component that cost
people a fortune, and at that only managed to have to pay for a small portion of them. Because lawyers.
And based on this thread I can see why, even at a full refund people aren't satisfied. I can understand being bummed about it
because they were good sights to use and there aren't many other options, but sheesh.
The other thing that boggles my mind is that fifteen years these things have been around, and just now everyone decides they are garbage? GTFO lol...
They have never been an aimpoint, but they offer some features aimpoints don't, I don't think anyone that can type in google has been under any illusions
otherwise for a long time.
L3 ain't going nowhere I don't imagine. The fact that they can blow all this money
is more than proof. They will get this BS off the radar and continue right on raking in many
millions a year, and not from jerkoffs like us buying RDS's. No matter how upset we are on the
internet.
I had similar problem with my Aimpoint T1. When I contacted Aimpoint they were also aware of the problem. Are they fraudsters too?
Turns out the battery cap required too much tightening force to complete the circuit and was unreliable. They handled it, I was satisfied.
No, because Aimpoint acknowledged the problem and fixed the issue. Eotech/L3 never acknowledged(publicly) the problem existed until the lawsuit. Big damn difference if you ask me. Again, as recently as a couple of months ago they responded to my email inquiry about the issue using words that were that of surprise. Not anything about "yes, that can happen and this is our solution.".
Forgot to add. You won't convince me, I won't convince you. We'll have to agree to disagree. Have a good day.
The reticle is superior to anything else available, in my opinion. For me it's faster in close, and more precise out to mid distances.
Sorry about your troubles, and I've seen emails from Eotech stating the seal problem is now permanently fixed. Whether or not that's true remains to be seen.
Those problems are independent of the zero shift problems though.
If your sole reason for favoring Eotech is their reticle, you can find it other optics as well. Sightmark uses it in their M-Spec. I actually have one. It's about 1/3 of the price and carries nearly all the same specs. It's held up great, even on full auto. Also has a lifetime warranty; which was the reason I pulled the trigger on it over the eotech or aimpoint. Is it the best optic out there? No. Does it do everything a civilian could ever ask of. Most likely.
I hope L3 comes out of this okay. But just ask Colt how well things are going after losing a government contract. I can't say this would stop me from ever buying one. I can say that this makes me feel a whole lot better about the $400 I saved and put towards ammo though.
L3 isn't going out of business over this. They have tens of millions of dollars in contracts for their NVG equipment.
Im just hoping this ordeal forces Eotech to come out with an improved/fixed sight with battery life that is comparable to everything else in the market.
L3 isn't going out of business over this. They have tens of millions of dollars in contracts for their NVG equipment.
Im just hoping this ordeal forces Eotech to come out with an improved/fixed sight with battery life that is comparable to everything else in the market.
Not to mention tons of other comms equipment.
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Im just hoping this ordeal forces Eotech to come out with an improved/fixed sight with battery life that is comparable to everything else in the market.
This.
I held off buying an EOTech due to the difference in battery life with the Aimpoint micros. I'll be first in line for an XPS if this happens.
azoutdoorsman
12-20-15, 09:26
The company lied to generate revenue. Lying to save money from a recall is asinine as it will come back to haunt you for far more than a recall is worth. Hence the current refund offering and the drama associated. The sole purpose of the refund is to reduce the severity of the class action lawsuits that are happening and will likely continue to happen. Eotech doesn't give a sh*t about the customer, just their bottom line.
The defects are real and they effect all Eotech sights. The evidence is listed on the eotechlawsuit.com website and has been and is admitted to be the case by EOTECH THEMSELVES. It amazes me how many people seem to believe they know the optic better than the people who build them. Eotech admits they are faulty by design and NSWC and USSOCOM have tested and proven that to be the case. There is little doubt that the optics are not reliable, what is in question is just when they will fail. The temperature shift, the parallax issues, inconsistent adjustment values, the dimming due to moisture inside the optic, failed battery contacts, battery drain when the optic is off and the poor battery life are all other real issues.
VW didn't sell defective products, they simply lied about the emissions values, so what. The car still runs as advertised. Again, Eotech is offering full refunds as a way to mitigate huge lawsuit payouts.
Eotech is setting the precident, not the consumer. If they simply offered a poorly built product then it would sit amongst other low end brands like Tasco, NcStar and Leapers. The difference is they lied about the products capabilities and failed to make any attempt to solve the issues. It is this difference that has spurred Eotech to offer the refund. Avoiding lawsuits and their payouts is priority one. Other manufacturers offer to repair or replace the defective item under warranty. Eotech has no fix for the problem, they lied about the quality of the product. Call me crazy but if I was sold a product under false claims I would want my money back as well. Perhaps not being scammed is freeloading to you, I call it consumer protection. Then again, I didn't buy an Eotech.
There you have it, there was a defective battery cap, not an inherent design flaw(also known as a poor design) and they found it and fixed it. I hate to be the broken record here but Eotech isn't offering a fix, because there isn't one. The optic does not perform anywhere near the level they claim it does/can. They got caught and there is no solution. Eotech is in damage control mode, and minimizing the volume of people involved in lawsuits will cost them less in the end. Can't sue them if you got your money back now can you? The other thing the refund does(or they hope it does) is to reduce the amount and duration of bad press that Eotech/L3 is receiving. For those who still haven't figured it out, the refund also looks like a "gesture of good faith" which it's not.
On a final note, wait till some LEO's or servicemen's family can prove(or a lawyer can prove) their loved one was wounded or killed because their Eotech failed them.
MM
You don't buy Eotech yet seem to have some strong opinions.
If the T1 battery cap caused a failure, it is a design flaw. The flaw may not manifest in every sight, but it is still a flaw.
I would bet money that they dump the Eotech line, either shut it down completely or sell it off if they can find a buyer. They have had what 10 years to "improve" them and it hasn't worked, I would bet money that they won't invest any more funds in them. That is the corporate mindset at work, has nothing to do with the value of the product but all about the short term bottom line, I perdict they will cut their loses and move on.
azoutdoorsman
12-20-15, 09:31
No, because Aimpoint acknowledged the problem and fixed the issue. Eotech/L3 never acknowledged(publicly) the problem existed until the lawsuit. Big damn difference if you ask me. Again, as recently as a couple of months ago they responded to my email inquiry about the issue using words that were that of surprise. Not anything about "yes, that can happen and this is our solution.".
Forgot to add. You won't convince me, I won't convince you. We'll have to agree to disagree. Have a good day.
Not trying to convince anyone of anything other than not all Eotechs have zero shift in the cold, hence the OP.
Digital_Damage
12-20-15, 09:34
I would bet money that they dump the Eotech line, either shut it down completely or sell it off if they can find a buyer. They have had what 10 years to "improve" them and it hasn't worked, I would bet money that they won't invest any more funds in them. That is the corporate mindset at work, has nothing to do with the value of the product but all about the short term bottom line, I perdict they will cut their loses and move on.
You would be out a lot of money... what you are proposing is stupidity "from a corporate mindset".
They make more money off thermal cores than they ever made with the holo sights.
azoutdoorsman
12-20-15, 09:34
If your sole reason for favoring Eotech is their reticle, you can find it other optics as well. Sightmark uses it in their M-Spec. I actually have one. It's about 1/3 of the price and carries nearly all the same specs. It's held up great, even on full auto. Also has a lifetime warranty; which was the reason I pulled the trigger on it over the eotech or aimpoint. Is it the best optic out there? No. Does it do everything a civilian could ever ask of. Most likely.
I hope L3 comes out of this okay. But just ask Colt how well things are going after losing a government contract. I can't say this would stop me from ever buying one. I can say that this makes me feel a whole lot better about the $400 I saved and put towards ammo though.
Sightmark uses a heads up holographic display similar to aircraft displays? Or just a similar shape reticle?
Digital_Damage
12-20-15, 09:44
Sightmark uses a heads up holographic display similar to aircraft displays? Or just a similar shape reticle?
I think all of Sightmark's are emitter driven not hud.
I just wanna know where I can buy one of those returned sights cheap, surely they aren't just going to junk em all.
A few years ago our agency sent a bunch of 512's back. They replaced them (not fix) then gave officers the opportunity to buy the now refurbished ones for like $165.
I think all of Sightmark's are emitter driven not hud.
I'm pretty sure this ^^^ is correct. I was replying to a post that addressed the actual reticle. The poster claimed it was faster to get on target at close ranges. I don't think, even in the M-Spec model, that they use the HUD like eotech. I'll have to look it up to confirm.
I too agree with another of the replies that it hopefully means an improved version. Especially in regards to battery life. I don't think they are on quite as bad a situation as colt. They didn't stake their entire claim all on one product like the former. But they are going to need to come out with something that really turns heads of they hope to recapture the dominance they once had. It'll be an interesting story line to watch.
Mysteryman
12-20-15, 12:34
You don't buy Eotech yet seem to have some strong opinions.
If the T1 battery cap caused a failure, it is a design flaw. The flaw may not manifest in every sight, but it is still a flaw.
I have had Eotech's in the past and they were ok, aside from the battery drain issues, one battery that leaked inside, loss of battery contact and the standard sh*t battery life. I never noticed a POI shift or the other more serious issues. Then again, I sold them shortly after I got them due to the issues listed above that I experienced. Still have buddies with them and they're constantly "re checking" their zeros.
The T1 cap isn't a design flaw, the cap in question was FLAWED. Either way Aimpoint solved the problem, Eotech simply hid it.
I just don't get some of you guys. They are giving full refunds, to anyone that can come up with one from ebay even for less money, even if they don't have a problem, with no questions asked (this is my understanding of the return process thus far), and that isn't good enough? You gotta be kidding me....
Nobody offers blanket full refunds. It just don't happen, not in Merika. It's always cheaper in the long run to jerk around in court for years.
Look up the Porsche IMS settlement that the fellow mentioned earlier, they paid out jack crap for a complete joke of a component that cost
people a fortune, and at that only managed to have to pay for a small portion of them. Because lawyers.
And based on this thread I can see why, even at a full refund people aren't satisfied. I can understand being bummed about it
because they were good sights to use and there aren't many other options, but sheesh.
The other thing that boggles my mind is that fifteen years these things have been around, and just now everyone decides they are garbage? GTFO lol...
They have never been an aimpoint, but they offer some features aimpoints don't, I don't think anyone that can type in google has been under any illusions
otherwise for a long time.
L3 ain't going nowhere I don't imagine. The fact that they can blow all this money
is more than proof. They will get this BS off the radar and continue right on raking in many
millions a year, and not from jerkoffs like us buying RDS's. No matter how upset we are on the
internet.
Based on the fanboy replies over this, there are plenty of folks who are clueless to the history of problems and failures associated with Eotech sights.
If your sole reason for favoring Eotech is their reticle, you can find it other optics as well. Sightmark uses it in their M-Spec. I actually have one. It's about 1/3 of the price and carries nearly all the same specs. It's held up great, even on full auto. Also has a lifetime warranty; which was the reason I pulled the trigger on it over the eotech or aimpoint. Is it the best optic out there? No. Does it do everything a civilian could ever ask of. Most likely.
I hope L3 comes out of this okay. But just ask Colt how well things are going after losing a government contract. I can't say this would stop me from ever buying one. I can say that this makes me feel a whole lot better about the $400 I saved and put towards ammo though.
Sightmark is absolute garbage..
A few years ago our agency sent a bunch of 512's back. They replaced them (not fix) then gave officers the opportunity to buy the now refurbished ones for like $165.
According to the fanboys you're a liar. Eotech sights are perfectly serviceable, the POI shift is not a design flaw which Eotech has admitted to. Nope, all BS, keep your Eotech.
Simply amazed at how many people still think they know the optic better than the manufacturer who admits they're unreliable and do not perform as advertised. Stop investing your emotions into your kit. Eotech lied and swindled many. Now you can get your money back and learn from it.
MM
ETA: Oh yeah, and 32'f is not cold...
Sightmark is absolute garbage..
I'd say that's a little unwarranted. I clearly stated that it's not the best on the market, but it's far from being garbage. You get what you pay for. If you buy one of their budget models, the expectations should be set accordingly. At the same time they do invest some more care and detail in their "higher end" offerings. I've not had any issues with mine. It's held its zero, even after mounting and re-mounting numerous times. Has not malfunctioned, and does exactly what I ask of it. They serve a certain segment of the market, and they do it well. I know plenty of others who are satisfied with their scopes, magnifiers, etc. It all depends on one's application. From a value perspective, they're a leader in their class. Much like primary arms. One thing that makes them different from the current company in the limelight, is they don't excuse duds and flaws. Instead they stand behind their product with a lifetime warranty. If anything, that drives them to continue refining their designs, and avoid complacency. You can flame on them all you want, and I don't seek to change someone's mind who poses such a well-founded critique. At the end of the day we have to evaluate our purchases individually. If a product serves the purpose for which it was intended, it doesn't matter who made it or what the cost was.
Can we stop all of the bullshit arguing like little girls? Some people are all kinds of butt hurt about the situation (including some that have never even paid for an EOTech it seems), and some are willing to stick with the company and see what comes of it. Let's leave it at that. The amount of bitching in this thread is ridiculous and its not even directly related to the OP. He did a test, keep the discussion on that and not how EOTech is pretty much satan.
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Sorry but other than the shape of the reticle the sightmark is nothing like a eotech. There are zero holographic sights on the market other than the eotech. I don't want to be a fanboy but to people with astigmatism there's etched glass and hws. All other illuminated type reticles look like a group of grapes.
Mysteryman
12-20-15, 15:37
Can we stop all of the bullshit arguing like little girls? Some people are all kinds of butt hurt about the situation (including some that have never even paid for an EOTech it seems), and some are willing to stick with the company and see what comes of it. Let's leave it at that. The amount of bitching in this thread is ridiculous and its not even directly related to the OP. He did a test, keep the discussion on that and not how EOTech is pretty much satan.
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If you're referring to me, I am not the least bit butt hurt. I find this whole disaster quite entertaining. Seeing the fanboy support for an optic that doesn't work and has no remedy is a great way to work the abs in a laughing fit. Especially when a full refund is being offered and still being ignored. The apologists that Eotech has on their side is astounding. It's no wonder low end junk gets sold by the boatload every year to people. The emotional investment is higher than the logical/practical one.
The Op didn't conduct a test, he altered one variable slightly and made the assumption that his data is both accurate and empirical. Even though as I've said a dozen times, Eotech has admitted that the optics do experience thermal drift and it is by design that it does this. Yet somehow a poorly done home "experiment" if you want to call it that, somehow has not only merit, but more merit than those of Eotech and NSWC. Both of which are clueless morons...
MM
KalashniKEV
12-20-15, 16:42
Yeah, I've used mine in temps from the mid 90°s to the -10°s and never experienced any zero shift either.
I can beat that- 110°+ to negative teens and never had any issues with zero shift.
To boot, my 511 and 512 are both straight banged up.
I wonder if this only effects the newer optics???
(...and I wonder what they are going to do with the turned in optics)
Also, can anyone tell me what exactly they lied about?
They still make the fastest, most precise, and toughest RDS in the game (though if this is founded, "tough" may be limited to external physical toughness)
Mysteryman
12-20-15, 18:56
I can beat that- 110°+ to negative teens and never had any issues with zero shift.
To boot, my 511 and 512 are both straight banged up.
I wonder if this only effects the newer optics???
(...and I wonder what they are going to do with the turned in optics)
Also, can anyone tell me what exactly they lied about?
They still make the fastest, most precise, and toughest RDS in the game (though if this is founded, "tough" may be limited to external physical toughness)
It effects all of their HWS.
If the optic won't hold zero it matters not how "tough" it is.
Red dot optics are designed for speed, not precision.
Here's the easy answer:
Thermal Drift – After zeroing the ECOS systems at or near ambient temperature (73°F), the zero position will shift during operating temperature changes. The ECOS systems have the potential to shift approximately +/- 4 Minutes of Angle (MOA) at -40°F and 122°F. Due to thermal drift, the sight may not return to zero. The systems have the potential of approximately a +/- 2 MOA zero shift upon return to ambient (73°F) after being exposed to any temperature between -40°F and 122°F temperatures.
Fading Reticle – The complete 65 MOA ring with 1 MOA dot reticle may not be visible to the operator throughout the entire viewing window of the ECOS-Q optic. The ECOS-Q system’s age and environmental exposure are factors which accelerate reticle dimming. Impact to operators is the holographic reticle may not be visible in all firing positions.
HWS DiagramParallax Error – Parallax is an apparent change in the position of an object resulting from a change in position of the observer. The 65 MOA ring with 1 MOA dot reticle point of aim will appear to move in relation to your target during off-axis firing positions where maintaining cheek-weld and sight picture is not feasible. The ECOS-Q system has the potential of approximately 4 Minute of Angle (MOA) parallax error at 70°F and approximately 6 MOA parallax error at 5°F. Impact to the operators is the point of aim / point of impact will be affected by a MOA parallax error, in off-axis firing positions at all temperatures.
Is My EOTech safe to use?
There is no known fix for the problem other than replacing the unit. Degree of inaccuracy and MOA variance will change based upon the ambient temperature the HWS was zero’d at, the amount of humidity it has been exposed to over its operational life, the age of the HWS and the ambient temperature the HWS is used at while engaging target. We do not recommend continuing to use the EOTech HWS system in scenarios where reliable targeting is necessary across a broad range of temperatures or humidity.
What misrepresentations did EOTech make to US consumers?
Beginning in 2005, in its product marketing brochures, EOTech represented, “Extreme Durability – Built to take it: The HWS has been designed and tested to provide consistent, reliable performance even in the most hostile operational environments. The HWS is Waterproof (submersible), fogproof, shockproof, and withstands extreme temperature variations.”
It also represented, “No Reticle Wash-Out: The HWSʼs 30 brightness settings ensure the holographic reticle can be instantly viewed in ALL types of lighting environments, cluttered back- grounds and target colors. The HWS delivers an impressive 10,000,000:1 bright to low reticle contrast ratio … to ensure the reticle is always clearly viewable.”
In the HDS Specifications, it also said that the optics were “100% parallax free”.
EO Tech’s brochure specified the temperature operating rage to be: “-40 to 150 F(using AA lithiums); -20 to 150 F(all other battery choices)”
What did EOTech know?
In 2006, EOTech became aware that its sights failed to maintain zero with temperature changes, a condition it referred to as “thermal drift”.
EOTech’s CEO admits he knew that EOTech’s sights were experiencing increasing parallax errors in cold temperatures as early as March, 2007.
In early 2007, EOTech became aware that its sights were experiencing increasing parallax error in cold temperature. At 32° F, the parallax error was 12 MOA, i.e., 12 inches for every hundred yards, when measured from outside edge to outside edge of the sight; and at 5° F, the error was more than 20 MOA, from outside edge to outside edge.
In February 2009, EOTech became aware, based on testing a sample of sights, that moisture was entering its sights. When moisture enters a sight, it can cause a dimming of the reticle. Reticle dimming can occur more quickly in humid environments. An optic’s reticle is necessary to allow the user to acquire a target.
EOTech continued to sell its sights to the Government, Consumers, and others.
EOTech has been part of the L3 “Warrior Systems” division since 2011.
Beginning in 2011 , EOTech conducted testing of sights sold to Crane and found thermal drift of 2 to 6 MOA over temperature variations for its carbine sights.
EOTech continued to sell its sights to the government and the public without disclosing its findings.
You can find the above on eotechlawsuit.com
MM
I'm always amazed how the topic of RDS brands really brings out the fanatical ugliness in some people.
Digital_Damage
12-20-15, 20:40
it is a shame there is just no competitor for the EoTech's, to my knowledge no one is doing what they are doing with HUD's
Can people be honest and stop whining? I (and I'll bet a large amount of those sending their optics back) are doing so because it's purely smarter in the business sense? I know my 512 was not going to sell for much on the forums, yet here's the manufacturer telling me they'll give me my money back? ****, call me a freeloader, I could care less. Eotech set the refund precedent, not the consumer. It's just business.
KalashniKEV
12-21-15, 14:39
You can find the above on eotechlawsuit.com
MM
Eeeeeww... I feel dirty for even clicking there.
Anyway, my EOtechs have all been rock solid and never exhibited any zero shift... even through two years in Iraq getting bumped, knocked, dinged, cooked, and chilled.
I did have two failures- one due to corrosion of the terminals (simple fix) and one due to the bumper going bad (simple fix).
I hope to see the turn-in sights resold at a discount.
Mysteryman
12-21-15, 16:51
Eeeeeww... I feel dirty for even clicking there.
Anyway, my EOtechs have all been rock solid and never exhibited any zero shift... even through two years in Iraq getting bumped, knocked, dinged, cooked, and chilled.
I did have two failures- one due to corrosion of the terminals (simple fix) and one due to the bumper going bad (simple fix).
I hope to see the turn-in sights resold at a discount.
Classic example of how your experience somehow trumps what the manufacturer has admitted to regarding the failings and shortcomings of their products. I'm confident that Eotech and NSWC are a little more knowledgeable about the issues with Eotech sights than likely anyone else.
MM
Classic example of how your experience somehow trumps what the manufacturer has admitted to regarding the failings and shortcomings of their products. I'm confident that Eotech and NSWC are a little more knowledgeable about the issues with Eotech sights than likely anyone else.
MM
Give it a ****ing rest guy. We get it. EOTech said they have issues after the military exposed them. If users haven't experienced any issues and want to keep them, that's their decision and you don't need to argue every one individually.
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Classic example of how your experience somehow trumps what the manufacturer has admitted to regarding the failings and shortcomings of their products. I'm confident that Eotech and NSWC are a little more knowledgeable about the issues with Eotech sights than likely anyone else.
MM
Why do you care so much? Certainly, numerous people never had a problem with their EOTech & are content with keeping them. Whatever their reason may be; that's their prerogative, not yours or anyone else's.
Everyone has heard your stance on the subject. Now, seriously... let it go.
Mysteryman
12-21-15, 17:35
Give it a ****ing rest guy. We get it. EOTech said they have issues after the military exposed them. If users haven't experienced any issues and want to keep them, that's their decision and you don't need to argue every one individually.
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The same could be said for the fanboys who still believe their Eotech to be a properly functioning unit. I don't care if people want to keep them, so why do people feel the need to tell everyone else that they are keeping them? All the fanboy posts about Eotech sights being awesome are nothing more than self reassurance that the optic they have invested in emotionally is a good one. By posting it publicly it solidifies that belief in their mind. The truth is that they are not good optics and the fanboy posts are fooling no one.
Eotech sights are flawed, this has been proven and admitted to by Eotech. This is fact. Personal experiences and beliefs are not fact. When people stop trying to convince others(and themselves) that their optic is perfectly functional and that Eotech didn't lie to make a dollar, then there will be no need to point out their ill informed non factual opinions.
MM
The same could be said for the fanboys who still believe their Eotech to be a properly functioning unit. I don't care if people want to keep them, so why do people feel the need to tell everyone else that they are keeping them? All the fanboy posts about Eotech sights being awesome are nothing more than self reassurance that the optic they have invested in emotionally is a good one. By posting it publicly it solidifies that belief in their mind. The truth is that they are not good optics and the fanboy posts are fooling no one.
Eotech sights are flawed, this has been proven and admitted to by Eotech. This is fact. Personal experiences and beliefs are not fact. When people stop trying to convince others(and themselves) that their optic is perfectly functional and that Eotech didn't lie to make a dollar, then there will be no need to point out their ill informed non factual opinions.
MM
Sure, whatever you say.
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Digital_Damage
12-21-15, 18:14
The same could be said for the fanboys who still believe their Eotech to be a properly functioning unit. I don't care if people want to keep them, so why do people feel the need to tell everyone else that they are keeping them? All the fanboy posts about Eotech sights being awesome are nothing more than self reassurance that the optic they have invested in emotionally is a good one. By posting it publicly it solidifies that belief in their mind. The truth is that they are not good optics and the fanboy posts are fooling no one.
Eotech sights are flawed, this has been proven and admitted to by Eotech. This is fact. Personal experiences and beliefs are not fact. When people stop trying to convince others(and themselves) that their optic is perfectly functional and that Eotech didn't lie to make a dollar, then there will be no need to point out their ill informed non factual opinions.
MM
They get it already...
You have no personal or monetary investment here. Eotech has stated there are issues, if people have not experiencing it and are willing to roll the dice by keeping theirs it is none of your business.
They understand the risk, if you were trying to inform them that is one thing.
You are now just attacking each person individually.
IMO there is no "perfect" holo or red dot on the market right now. If there was even slight competition in the holo realm I think you would see people switching without question, right now those people are stuck with no options.
If you like your Eotech, you can keep your Eotech.
If you like your refund, you can get your refund.
Otherwise, take a deep breath. It's an internet discussion.
They get it already...
You have no personal or monetary investment here. Eotech has stated there are issues, if people have not experiencing it and are willing to roll the dice by keeping theirs it is none of your business.
They understand the risk, if you were trying to inform them that is one thing.
You are now just attacking each person individually.
IMO there is no "perfect" holo or red dot on the market right now. If there was even slight competition in the holo realm I think you would see people switching without question, right now those people are stuck with no options.
Thank you! I'm new to the forum as a "poster". I can officially say, the ad hominem attacks are just as annoying on the sideline as they are in person. It seems the guy that's the most pissed off doesn't even own an eotech. I get making an argument for one product vs another, but no need to make it personal. Like I said in a previous post, if something works for your intended purpose, someone else criticizing it doesn't make it a bad choice. I have a sightmark m-spec. I acknowledge exactly what it is, and it does what I need it to. The response I get "it's garbage". I'm not getting dropped into Ramadi any time soon, and odds are the rest of us aren't either. So it's really not that big a deal. Same goes for the people sticking with eotech. They certainly have a problem on their hands as a company. But, it doesn't mean it's going to effect everyone that owns one. If you haven't had issues, great! If you have, you can now get it resolved, and decide where to go from there. At the end of the day they've made a product that has served our men and women well. One can get pissed at them for covering up and issue, I get that. Attack the person for sharing their opinion, weak.
I agree with you Digital. There is no perfect sight, aside from whatever MM runs of course. So no use in getting all bent out of shape over other people's choices. I selected mine for a given application, and others likely did the same. I'm happy with mine, and hopefully others are satisfied with theirs. If not, I'll be glad to share my experience with what I run. Pros, cons, and advice for application. We can't do all the research and trial and error on our own. So let's stop bitching like little children and do something constructive with our opinions.
What many do not seem to get is that the entire platform of the system is constantly fluid and evolving in ways that all of us want to be positive in general at least.
When issues arise, the market, be it contract or commercial will favor a system that introduces lesser issues in favor of gains. The source generator (the business) responds by improving product if they choose to stay in that market. That does not mean that prior generations of product is "bad" or "defective by design". Issues come up with all things in times, a better mouse trap eventually happens. Look at generational changes in 1X sights over the years, there is continuous improvement. The continuous evolution has been raising the bar, I hope it continues to do so.
Mysteryman
12-22-15, 19:43
Thank you! I'm new to the forum as a "poster". I can officially say, the ad hominem attacks are just as annoying on the sideline as they are in person. It seems the guy that's the most pissed off doesn't even own an eotech. I get making an argument for one product vs another, but no need to make it personal. Like I said in a previous post, if something works for your intended purpose, someone else criticizing it doesn't make it a bad choice. I have a sightmark m-spec. I acknowledge exactly what it is, and it does what I need it to. The response I get "it's garbage". I'm not getting dropped into Ramadi any time soon, and odds are the rest of us aren't either. So it's really not that big a deal. Same goes for the people sticking with eotech. They certainly have a problem on their hands as a company. But, it doesn't mean it's going to effect everyone that owns one. If you haven't had issues, great! If you have, you can now get it resolved, and decide where to go from there. At the end of the day they've made a product that has served our men and women well. One can get pissed at them for covering up and issue, I get that. Attack the person for sharing their opinion, weak.
I agree with you Digital. There is no perfect sight, aside from whatever MM runs of course. So no use in getting all bent out of shape over other people's choices. I selected mine for a given application, and others likely did the same. I'm happy with mine, and hopefully others are satisfied with theirs. If not, I'll be glad to share my experience with what I run. Pros, cons, and advice for application. We can't do all the research and trial and error on our own. So let's stop bitching like little children and do something constructive with our opinions.
Please show me where I said there was a perfect sight? I indicated that the Aimpoint Micro series is as close as we can get at this point. If you would care to dispute and discuss that point then I'm all ears. I prefer my ACOG's. Having an opinion is fine, but trying to pass off that opinion as factual data is not. Eotech sights have had problems for nearly a decade, that information is admitted to by Eotech themselves. There is no "advancement" in design, there was only lies and failing products. The blanket refund is a clue as to just what Eotech thinks of their own products.
As for personal attacks I haven't engaged in any. It is my OPINION that those who continue to use Eotech sights or do not seek a refund are foolish. I can support that OPINION with the logic that returning a sight that has known defects for a full refund would allow a person to start over and try another optic. Sticking with an optic that has known defects and possibly losing the opportunity to seek a refund or repair is a huge gamble that will end with a return/refund or being stuck with a dead optic. Neither of those outcomes sounds more appealing than a refund and the chance to start over. Am I alone on this??
What many do not seem to get is that the entire platform of the system is constantly fluid and evolving in ways that all of us want to be positive in general at least.
When issues arise, the market, be it contract or commercial will favor a system that introduces lesser issues in favor of gains. The source generator (the business) responds by improving product if they choose to stay in that market. That does not mean that prior generations of product is "bad" or "defective by design". Issues come up with all things in times, a better mouse trap eventually happens. Look at generational changes in 1X sights over the years, there is continuous improvement. The continuous evolution has been raising the bar, I hope it continues to do so.
Again, there was no improvement on the sights, ten years of the same failing design. I agree with what you say but it's not how Eotech conducted itself.
MM
ETA: Oddly enough, for a discussion about opinions it seems post previous to this one was deleted.....
Going nowhere fast. Maybe there's an end to this in sight?
MM
ETA: Oddly enough, for a discussion about opinions it seems post previous to this one was deleted.....
Maybe you ought to take that ****ing hint and quit trolling this thread. You've spoke your mind, we all heard it, now GTFO.
Digital_Damage
12-22-15, 22:15
Please show me where I said there was a perfect sight? I indicated that the Aimpoint Micro series is as close as we can get at this point. If you would care to dispute and discuss that point then I'm all ears. I prefer my ACOG's. Having an opinion is fine, but trying to pass off that opinion as factual data is not. Eotech sights have had problems for nearly a decade, that information is admitted to by Eotech themselves. There is no "advancement" in design, there was only lies and failing products. The blanket refund is a clue as to just what Eotech thinks of their own products.
As for personal attacks I haven't engaged in any. It is my OPINION that those who continue to use Eotech sights or do not seek a refund are foolish. I can support that OPINION with the logic that returning a sight that has known defects for a full refund would allow a person to start over and try another optic. Sticking with an optic that has known defects and possibly losing the opportunity to seek a refund or repair is a huge gamble that will end with a return/refund or being stuck with a dead optic. Neither of those outcomes sounds more appealing than a refund and the chance to start over. Am I alone on this??
Again, there was no improvement on the sights, ten years of the same failing design. I agree with what you say but it's not how Eotech conducted itself.
MM
ETA: Oddly enough, for a discussion about opinions it seems post previous to this one was deleted.....
At this point you are just regurgitating the same repetitive shit all over again, for the last time people get it. They understand the risk, you are just being a jack ass at this point.
Aimpoints and Eotech are nothing alike... when people keep trying to compare the two it shows a general lack of knowledge on the subject.
Aimpoint is an emitter being projected onto a canted objective lens. That method causes magnification, image distortion and image shift. All the same "issues" people are losing their minds over with the MRO.
Eotechs are HUDS, there is no objective lens in the traditional sense. There for no magnification, image distortion or image shift.
Right now there is NOTHING on the market that they can replace their units with the same technology, they are in a tough spot. Especially those with impaired sight that cannot switch to a RDS even if they tried to.
You calling people foolish does not help anyone, it just make you look like and ass. So move along, the next posts I will just be flagging to the admins.
SeriousStudent
12-22-15, 22:21
Mysteryman - stop. Just stop. You are done with this thread
It seems to me the internet hates Eotech while trigger pullers still find it the best assualter optic available. I know people who have had more Aimpoints than Eotechs die, for that matter. That said, I have had an Eotech mess up, and not an Aimpoint. YMMV I guess, but a lot of the SOF guys are pushing for LPV's currently, and those who aren't, still seem to prefer Eo for assaulting, from who I've spoken to on it.
Mysteryman
12-23-15, 04:53
Mysteryman - stop. Just stop. You are done with this thread
So it's OK for others to make personal attacks towards me, and I'm not permitted to my opinion? Doesn't sound fair or free.
MM
For everyone's general knowledge fund: posting after being told to stop is interpreted as....not stopping.
It's fairly straightforward.
Digital_Damage
12-23-15, 08:30
It seems to me the internet hates Eotech while trigger pullers still find it the best assualter optic available. I know people who have had more Aimpoints than Eotechs die, for that matter. That said, I have had an Eotech mess up, and not an Aimpoint. YMMV I guess, but a lot of the SOF guys are pushing for LPV's currently, and those who aren't, still seem to prefer Eo for assaulting, from who I've spoken to on it.
I guess a reasonable analogy is the eotech's are cars with all the latest technology, when they perform as expected they will out perform the aimpoints. However, that technology comes at a high cost in terms of reliability. When things go wrong, they go very wrong and you can wind up on the side of the road waiting for AAA.
I have decided to perform my own test on a unit, I'll set at 73 and take it to 122+ and 32 and see what happens. Will that debunk the issues that are being reported if nothing happens? No, but it will be interesting to see if I can duplicate and see just how bad it gets.
Digital_Damage
12-23-15, 10:27
so... interesting results.
Model EXPS3-0
Zeroed at 73,
took it up to 125 confirmed with Infrared thermometer. Zero shift.
took it down to 32 confirmed with Infrared thermometer. 1 1/2 MOA Shift. ended up at 1/2 MOA shift after getting back to 73
Re-zeroed at 73, took it down to 40 confirmed with Infrared thermometer. Zero shift.
took it up to 150 confirmed with Infrared thermometer. Zero shift.
So I suspect the shift has to do with expansion and contraction. Could not really push the upper temp limit to see if I could get it to shift, our equipment only goes to 150.
so... interesting results.
Model EXPS3-0
Zeroed at 73,
took it up to 125 confirmed with Infrared thermometer. Zero shift.
took it down to 32 confirmed with Infrared thermometer. 1 1/2 MOA Shift. ended up at 1/2 MOA shift after getting back to 73
Re-zeroed at 73, took it down to 40 confirmed with Infrared thermometer. Zero shift.
took it up to 150 confirmed with Infrared thermometer. Zero shift.
So I suspect the shift has to do with expansion and contraction. Could not really push the upper temp limit to see if I could get it to shift, our equipment only goes to 150.
Can you get lower than 32°? Many of us shoot into the -degrees.
I have not experienced any shift when shooting in low temps but I'm not spending a great deal of time shooting groups either. It's usually just a quick function test or some load development tests, which usually take longer, maybe an hour or two.
Also, I want to say thanks to the mods. Hopefully now we can discuss issues without the trolling rhetoric.
Eotech Fanboy here, I have no intentions of sending my EXPS3 in for a refund… Why? Because in my 35 years of shooting experience I have never had a sight that impressed me as much as my Eotech.
Do I acknowledge that Eotech has had some problems? Yes I do, but luckily for me it does not apply to my particular unit.
Would I buy a different brand of sight if it was better than the Eotech? Yes I would, but I haven't as of yet to come across such.
For the record I love all three of the following: Eotech, Trijicon and Aimpoint.
But my Eotech remains at the top of the list until I decide otherwise.
I hope that 5 years from now we can all look back on this thread and laugh at some of the comments made and view points expressed (mine included).
Digital_Damage
12-23-15, 11:45
Can you get lower than 32°? Many of us shoot into the -degrees.
I have not experienced any shift when shooting in low temps but I'm not spending a great deal of time shooting groups either. It's usually just a quick function test or some load development tests, which usually take longer, maybe an hour or two.
Also, I want to say thanks to the mods. Hopefully now we can discuss issues without the trolling rhetoric.
can go -22, operating range for these (supposedly) are -40 - 155. I'll throw it in and set it for -22
can go -22, operating range for these (supposedly) are -40 - 155. I'll throw it in and set it for -22
Thanks!
Just curious, what method are you using to test this?
Digital_Damage
12-23-15, 11:55
Thanks!
Just curious, what method are you using to test this?
We have a full optics lab here, have a chiller that will reach -22 with no humidity and a Cryo unit that will go -190 to -300.
to test zero we have a light transmission unit and mounting rail. repeatability when swapping bases is .001.
We have a full optics lab here, have a chiller that will reach -22 with no humidity and a Cryo unit that will go -190 to -300.
to test zero we have a light transmission unit and mounting rail. repeatability when swapping bases is .001.
Awesome! Sounds way more effective than my backyard. :D
Digital_Damage
12-23-15, 12:43
for some reason I could not get it down to -22 only -20.
shift was 1 1/2 MOA.
repeated the 150 test and no shift again.
waiting for it to reach 73 again to see if the MOA shift further.
Digital_Damage
12-23-15, 13:10
after getting back to 73 it is 1/2 MOA off.
after getting back to 73 it is 1/2 MOA off.
Just trying to understand the dynamics here... So the main shift really occurs when you dip below freezing, right? Assuming it's the expansion/contraction that causes the zero shift issues. Not much happens up top, or so it appears.
What happens when you rezero after the freeze cycle? Is it always a 1.5 MOA shift or does it find an equilibrium, so to speak?
Thanks for testing this, by the way.
Digital_Damage
12-23-15, 15:02
Just trying to understand the dynamics here... So the main shift really occurs when you dip below freezing, right? Assuming it's the expansion/contraction that causes the zero shift issues. Not much happens up top, or so it appears.
What happens when you rezero after the freeze cycle? Is it always a 1.5 MOA shift or does it find an equilibrium, so to speak?
Thanks for testing this, by the way.
With this unit yes, looks to be a freezing and below issue.
The high temp seems to not be an issue.
After re-zero it still shifts, when re introduced to cold.
Eotech Fanboy here, I have no intentions of sending my EXPS3 in for a refund… Why? Because in my 35 years of shooting experience I have never had a sight that impressed me as much as my Eotech.
Do I acknowledge that Eotech has had some problems? Yes I do, but luckily for me it does not apply to my particular unit.
Would I buy a different brand of sight if it was better than the Eotech? Yes I would, but I haven't as of yet to come across such.
For the record I love all three of the following: Eotech, Trijicon and Aimpoint.
But my Eotech remains at the top of the list until I decide otherwise.
I hope that 5 years from now we can all look back on this thread and laugh at some of the comments made and view points expressed (mine included).
So if Eotech does happen to go under who will do repair work on your optic if it needs it?
So if Eotech does happen to go under who will do repair work on your optic if it needs it?
Maybe troll that question somewhere else.
The people keeping their EOTechs are happy with them, know the risks, and generally don't fall for the going under/doom & gloom scenario.
So if Eotech does happen to go under who will do repair work on your optic if it needs it?
Well considering my present income I guess I would toss it in the garbage and buy something else when or if the time comes.
Same reason I don't buy extra insurance on cameras, large screen TV's and computers, it's a waste of money better spent on a good bottle of rum.
Digital_Damage
12-23-15, 16:21
So if Eotech does happen to go under who will do repair work on your optic if it needs it?
They are not going under, the income from holo sights is small compared to the income from thier thermal cores.
Thanks for the data points Digital_Damage.
What happens if the unit is repeatedly subjected to freezing and back without being re-zeroed? Would the zero shift further?
If the zero shift within the temperature range in your test is fairly constant, then your data points seem to suggest an EOTech should / could be used like an Aimpoint 2 MOA with a 64 MOA ring when below freezing.
EDIT: Merry Christmas! :D
EDIT: Found the following here ( EOTech HWS FAQ ) (http://www.eotechinc.com/hws-service-and-support/faq#29627)
Will the HWS hold zero as temperature changes?
EOTech's sights will experience a point of impact shift away from the point of aim when the sight is used at a temperature different from the temperature at which the sight was zeroed. This shift is greater the more extreme the temperature change. For example, when a sight is zeroed at 70°F then acclimated to 50°F, less shift will occur. On the other hand, if zeroed at 70°F, then acclimated to 0°F, more shift could occur. The maximum shift will occur at temperature extremes and could be up to 5 MOA. Therefore, to acheive optimum accuracy, the sight should be re-zeroed whenever the temperature changes markedly from the temperature at which the sight was zeroed.
With this unit yes, looks to be a freezing and below issue.
The high temp seems to not be an issue.
After re-zero it still shifts, when re introduced to cold.
WickedWillis
12-28-15, 15:13
Thanks for the data points Digital_Damage.
What happens if the unit is repeatedly subjected to freezing and back without being re-zeroed? Would the zero shift further?
If the zero shift within the temperature range in your test is fairly constant, then your data points seem to suggest an EOTech should / could be used like an Aimpoint 2 MOA with a 64 MOA ring when below freezing.
EDIT: Merry Christmas! :D
EDIT: Found the following here ( EOTech HWS FAQ ) (http://www.eotechinc.com/hws-service-and-support/faq#29627)
Will the HWS hold zero as temperature changes?
EOTech's sights will experience a point of impact shift away from the point of aim when the sight is used at a temperature different from the temperature at which the sight was zeroed. This shift is greater the more extreme the temperature change. For example, when a sight is zeroed at 70°F then acclimated to 50°F, less shift will occur. On the other hand, if zeroed at 70°F, then acclimated to 0°F, more shift could occur. The maximum shift will occur at temperature extremes and could be up to 5 MOA. Therefore, to acheive optimum accuracy, the sight should be re-zeroed whenever the temperature changes markedly from the temperature at which the sight was zeroed.
Same thing Lincoln Electric welders does to test their duty cycle, only based on 70 degrees Fahrenheit.
I hope this isn't too much of a necro-post but I ran the same "experiment" so I searched to see if anyone else had before starting a new thread. So here's my contribution to science;
Took my EXPS and "zeroed" it by placing the 1MOA dot centered on the tip of the FSP, using the small aperture at 74 degrees. Left it in my freezer overnight (~0F) and mounted it back on the rifle. According to my MK1 eyeball, the dot had moved 6 clicks (~3MOA) to the right, no visible vertical movement. Until I can figure out how to heat it up to 145 or so and keep it at around that temp for a few hours I will just assume that temperature change = nomozero.
Mysteryman
02-11-16, 17:23
I hope this isn't too much of a necro-post but I ran the same "experiment" so I searched to see if anyone else had before starting a new thread. So here's my contribution to science;
Took my EXPS and "zeroed" it by placing the 1MOA dot centered on the tip of the FSP, using the small aperture at 74 degrees. Left it in my freezer overnight (~0F) and mounted it back on the rifle. According to my MK1 eyeball, the dot had moved 6 clicks (~3MOA) to the right, no visible vertical movement. Until I can figure out how to heat it up to 145 or so and keep it at around that temp for a few hours I will just assume that temperature change = nomozero.
Appreciate the testing but it's already been confirmed and admitted to by EOTech themselves. I still don't understand why people have a hard time believing the sights are defective when the manufacturer admits they are and offers a full refund.
MM
Appreciate the testing but it's already been confirmed and admitted to by EOTech themselves. I still don't understand why people have a hard time believing the sights are defective when the manufacturer admits they are and offers a full refund.
MM
In case you forgot... VVV
Mysteryman - stop. Just stop. You are done with this thread
I didn't say, nor was I trying to imply, that I was having a hard time believing that temperature affects POI on Eotechs. I was curious what kind of MOA shift I would see on my personal unit at extreme temps.
Digital_Damage
02-11-16, 18:53
I didn't say, nor was I trying to imply, that I was having a hard time believing that temperature affects POI on Eotechs. I was curious what kind of MOA shift I would see on my personal unit at extreme temps.
don't pay him any attention... he is not even suppose to be posting in this thread anyways. Reported it.
SeriousStudent
02-11-16, 19:43
The lad is on the beach for a while.
Thanks for using the report post button, it is appreciated.
patriot_man
02-16-16, 07:29
Digital_damage thanks for testing an EXPS3-0.
Do you have an Aimpoint T-2 you can test as well? Would be interesting to see if there is any shift.
patriot_man
02-16-16, 07:39
I've also wondered if the expansion and contraction is mainly effecting the internals or the mounting interface to the rail.
Since SOCOM and most professional end users have used the throw lever versions (EXPS, 553) that utilize steel for the cams and some small parts I've wondered if a screw mount type would be less prone to zero shift if it is an interface issue.
The main reason I'm wondering this is from a previous experience where I've seen loosening and removal of the protective hood had relieved pressure and stress and caused roughly a 4 MOA shift on an eotech 552 and the hood is screwed into the area in base where the sight mounts to the rail.
Until digital can chime in, since his testing was more scientific than mine, IMO the expansion/contraction is internal to the optic rather than at the rail interface. Or I guess I should say if there is shift at the rail interface it would be in addition to shift that's internal to the optic. I froze mine unmounted and could get pretty repeatable POI shift. For my uses, the main concern is actually heat rather than cold. In Arizona my trunk gets pretty hot in the summer.
I realize that for a lot of people this is academic, and the answer is return the Eotech for a refund. There will be some users who want to or *have to* continue using Eotechs. I think the more we can learn about the issues inherent to the design the better. So let's keep it about sharing information please.
Digital_Damage
02-16-16, 10:51
Digital_damage thanks for testing an EXPS3-0.
Do you have an Aimpoint T-2 you can test as well? Would be interesting to see if there is any shift.
Not a lot with T-2's but did some wit T-1's. Nothing notable as far as shift with cold weather.
Digital_Damage
02-16-16, 10:52
I've also wondered if the expansion and contraction is mainly effecting the internals or the mounting interface to the rail.
Since SOCOM and most professional end users have used the throw lever versions (EXPS, 553) that utilize steel for the cams and some small parts I've wondered if a screw mount type would be less prone to zero shift if it is an interface issue.
The main reason I'm wondering this is from a previous experience where I've seen loosening and removal of the protective hood had relieved pressure and stress and caused roughly a 4 MOA shift on an eotech 552 and the hood is screwed into the area in base where the sight mounts to the rail.
Completely an internal problem, the method we use for testing never has the optic leaving the test bed.
patriot_man
02-17-16, 01:18
Completely an internal problem, the method we use for testing never has the optic leaving the test bed.
Excellent! Thanks for testing the sights.
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