Colt Defender?

[A_shizzle]

Anybody here have a Colt Defender? Pros and cons? thanks

[TriumphRat675]

I've got one, and think it is one of the best carry guns out there. I haven't put more than 300 rounds through it, but it has been completely reliable. I own more handguns than I can easily count without laying them on the carpet, including .22's and a full-size Series 70 Government model, and for whatever reason my Defender shoots smaller groups with less effort than any of them. it's the best shooting pistol i've ever used.

Recoil was much less severe than you might think, especially after shooting my Centennial J-frame. It is sharper than in a full size 1911, but the gun is so easy to shoot it's almost comfortable. On my tall, skinny frame, with a "bodyguard" belt holster from DM Bullard it disappears under a t-shirt.

The OEM sights are good quality and easy to pick up, the standard thumb safety works well, and the god-awful looking duckbill grip safety works fine.

Cons: for someone raised on Glocks, disassembly and reassembly are a PITA. I prefer black matte finishes and an ambi safety on a carry gun. The grip safety looks like an afterthought. That's about it.

I have no experience with other 3" 1911's, but internet rumor says the Defender is the best of the bunch, for what it's worth. There are more modern and durable designs, but the Defender is what I carry on a daily basis.

[jhs1969]

My experience has been just the opposite. I had one and it was with out doubt the worst handgun I have ever owned (granted I've never owned any Hi-Points or Loricins). It would never fire more than three rounds without a serious jam. It's jams were something I had never experienced before or since. It was like a stove pipe in the magazine. The base (rim) of the cartridge would go down into the mag, vertical, in comparison to the horizontal postition of a normally loaded mag. The bullet would be piniched between the breach face and chamber of the barrel. This happened with both supplied factory mags. Not trying to be negative on a personal level at all. Just thought I would point out that nothing is a sure thing, problems will be found in any mechanical instrument. On this paticular firearm I would recommend much deeper research before making a decision. Good luck.

[one]

I don't own one. However there are two that are very close to me in the hands of people I know.

The first one the recoil spring assembly seemed to have a problem going back together right. It eventually worked out and it's been so long since I've dealt with that I don't recall what the deal was with it.

The second one belongs to a Detective here that uses it as a carry gun sometimes. His magazine release broke completely in two during quals one day. I mean the body of it actually broke completely in two and the push button left the gun.

I replaced it for him with a new mag release and it's seemed to work fine so far but he carries a Glock 19 more these days.

On the plus side both of these guns seem to feed hollowpoint ammunition well whereas the LW Officer's ACP I had wouldn't feed anything other than ball ammo.

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

Short format 1911 are notoriously unreliable. Hilariously, although I seem to have had every malfunctioning 1911 on the planet, I have an officer's model that runs perfectly.

[Army Chief]

I very much like the idea of the Defender, but conventional wisdom is that it is simply too small a form factor to expect it to deliver anything close to complete reliability. As we've already seen here, some seem to have reasonably trouble-free experiences with them, and others have nothing but problems, but I don't know anyone that is serious about his guncraft that would consider the Defender his first choice in a carry piece.

Chief

[TriumphRat675]

I don't know anyone that is serious about his guncraft that would consider the Defender his first choice in a carry piece. Chief

I don't agree. Conventional wisdom (or some people's CW, anyway) says that the AR15 is an unreliable, shits-where-it-eats piece of junk. That's not entirely true, but it does need more cleaning and maintenance than an AK. I would argue the Defender is similar in its need for more preventative maintenance. It will also wear out faster. But then, it's not meant to be the type of gun you would take to a pistol class to put 1,000 rounds downrange in a weekend.

Granted, the average 3" 1911 won't be as reliable as the average 5" 1911, and definitely not as reliable as a G17. But it also wasn't designed to fill the same role as those guns. Given it's expected use - carried a little, shot enough to maintain proficiency - and its need for routine maintenance and spring replacement, I think the question is whether it is reliable enough for its given role - which for me is the small, carry it anywhere gun that I will actually strap on routinely walking out the door. So far, it has been. If that changes, so will the gun.

Are there any 'smiths or industry pros on the board who have experience with a statistically significant number of Defenders and can speak to their problems or lack of same?

[Army Chief]

I don't agree.

I'm not entirely sure that I see the validity of the 1911 v. AR-15 comparison, but I think you're essentially spot-on in your other observations. The problem here it that the track record on compact 1911s is pretty clear: every reduction that takes you farther from the original (5") recipe leaves you with less to work with in the reliability department.

There are, of course, many schools of thought regarding what is or is not an acceptable level of concession. For example, Hilton Yam won't even build you a sub-5" pistol, while Dick Heinie seems to favor Commanders (4.25"). In what might consider the "Defender class," Bill Wilson marketed the ultra-diminutive Sentinel for many years, then abandoned it, and recently brought it back. It works -- certainly well enough to be considered for CCW duties -- but as you suggested, it does require a significantly higher level of attention and upkeep.

In the same vein, I'm not suggesting that the Defender is simply unworthy of consideration, but I am forced to ask the question "how much risk is acceptable?" Is the pistol overly ammunition sensitive? Does it require very specific spring weights in order to even function? Is it prone to extractor tension problems? Is the frame capable of withstanding high round counts? Is the pistol easy to get back into service quickly if/when it goes down? The list of concerns goes on and on.

A casual CCW user is unlikely to fire such a pistol enough to really expose any of its shortcomings, and I believe that is who Hartford is trying to reach with this product. On the other hand, a hard-use professional is unlikely to consider a chopped 1911 (or whatever variation or vendor) a suitable working tool because of these very same vulnerabilities.

Admittedly, most of us probably find ourselves somewhere between those two extremes, but I find it instructive that the most serious modern proponents of the 1911 design favor the Government Model to the exclusion of almost every other variation. My CCW choice is actually a Wilson SDS, so I'm not suggesting that only a 5" gun will do. What I am saying is that, when we start talking about employing a 3" 1911, I think we have to be honest about the fact that we're making a conscious decision in the direction of greater complexity and vulnerability.

Chief

[ToddG]

Granted, the average 3" 1911 won't be as reliable as the average 5" 1911, and definitely not as reliable as a G17.

Which is pretty much all you need to know to make that decision ...

[markm]

Shit! I don't even like the reliability of the full sized 1911. No chance in hell I'd carry or even own a compact.

Not to mention the lost velocity on an already slow moving bullet.

[MassMark]

I owned and carried a Colt Defender for many moons and I loved it until.....It became totally unreliable. I think if one shoots it occasionally and carries it, you could draw the conclusion that it's very reliable - mine was. However, I trained with mine and shot it at least once weekly - sometimes more. Within year two, I began to see problems and it came to a point where shooting 50 successful rounds were all but totally improbable. I tried replacing the magazine springs, then the magazines. I sent it into Colt for repair and they sent it back saying it was "fine" - which it likely was for their 7-round test. Totally clean, the gun would run "fine", but soon would begin to fail. Sometimes a failure to feed - other times a failure to eject, failure to hold open - even had a round chamber during firing, but the hammer followed the slide into battery, which of course required the hammer to be drawn back fully to fire the round. I replaced everything spring-wise - some twice. By then, I had lost all faith in it and traded it in on a ParaOrdinance 6.45LDA which I carried for two years and put a couple thousand rounds through with no issues whatsoever. I'd still be carrying it had I not discovered the joys of the 642 which rides in my front pocket every single day....The Defender seemed to have lots of potential early on, but lost it's luster with time and use....

[twodollarbill]

I own fifteen Colt's ... Compacts to Gold Cups.
But not ONE Defender.
I know it is not a big deal, but in handling maybe twenty Defenders,
I never found one that the slide and lower aligned in the rear.
Some were off by 1/8" or more.
That bugged me...so I never bought one.

[TriumphRat675]

All fair enough.


I've got one, and think it is one of the best carry guns out there.

I withdraw this unqualified, over-enthusiastic statement and substitute the following:

Under my regular carry circumstances, my personal Defender has a combination of shootability, concealability, and carryability that leads me to feel comfortable relying on it and willing to tote it instead of a more inconvenient weapon. It has been reliable for me, but it has a low round count and it is not used or designed as a hard-use gun - YMMV. Experienced individuals on this forum do not trust it and have led me to reevaluate my unqualified favorable impression,

Good thread.

[MassMark]

All fair enough.



I withdraw this unqualified, over-enthusiastic statement and substitute the following:

Under my regular carry circumstances, my personal Defender has a combination of shootability, concealability, and carryability that leads me to feel comfortable relying on it and willing to tote it instead of a more inconvenient weapon. It has been reliable for me, but it has a low round count and it is not used or designed as a hard-use gun - YMMV. Experienced individuals on this forum do not trust it and have led me to reevaluate my unqualified favorable impression,

Good thread.

Then again, I may have just had a lemon - although like you, I bet my life on this gun every day and thought is was a perfect carry weapon. It ate everything I fed it until one day....I'm not sure what else I could have done to rebuild this weapon. I guess I could have sent it to a gunsmith for a thorough work-up. I don't know if after 2-3k the frame has issues or what, but all I know is that it went from a Swiss watch, to a Wal-Mart watch overnight...

[old grunt]

I have an Officer's Model that I have set up with an EGW rev.plug and guide rod with ISMI springs and heavy bushing. It hasn't burped in the small number of rounds I've run thru it since the modification(<200)...BUT all this talk and some of the comments made by experts(L.Vickers,H.Yam etc)make me think of swapping out the short barrel/slide combo for a Commander-size. This would, in effect, make a CCO type pistol like Colt once marketed. ANY THOUGHTS??? Suggestions on manufacturers to use??? Could this be a "drop-in" job with the right components that I could do???:confused:

[TriumphRat675]

I don't know if after 2-3k the frame has issues or what, but all I know is that it went from a Swiss watch, to a Wal-Mart watch overnight...

Hearsay on the intertubes says that Colt recommends replacement of the recoil spring assembly every 500 - 800 rounds. This makes sense - without the weight of 2 inches of steel in the slide to slow down the recoil impulse the springs bear a disproportionate share of the recoil. Once the springs wear out, I would think the frame and bearing surfaces start wearing way, way faster than they were designed to. AFAIK, every compact gun needs recoil springs replaced more regularly than the full size. I would imagine that goes double for guns chambered in a powerful round like the .45 ACP.

Like yours, mine has been dead reliable so far, and I've heard good things from other owners. I wonder how many of the reliability problems with the 3" 1911's are due to not replacing the recoil springs regularly? As far as I can tell this is the one warning the manufacturer doesn't put in its booklet.

[MX5]

I have carried daily, small to full sized 1911s (mostly Colts) for several decades and have been a gunsmith since the mid-'70's. A properly fitted, quality built 1911 is at it's best in the 5" format. It was designed around this envelope and will be most reliable as a full-sized gun. That being said, I carry concealed a LW Commander, CCO or LW Officers more than the 5" versions. Understand that I've been working on these a long time and there are reliability problems when you start shrinking them down. I shoot several hundred handgun rounds weekly, primarily in the 1911 format and 95% of my handgun training for over 30 yrs. has been with the 5" 1911.

The professionals I've associated with over the yrs. (Vickers, Hackathorn, Farnam, Benner, Bowie, Freshly, Laubert) all agree that a 1911 in .45 ACP is very effective when it works and can be very problematic when it doesn't. The smaller they get the more troublesome they can become. I like the Defender, but prefer the Officers for a small 1911 - just my personal choice.

My carry guns are utterly reliable within their expected usage parameters. The LW Officers has been a trusted CCW tool for 15 - 20 yrs. It has survived 2 and 3 day pistol classes putting 500 - 800 rds. downrange per day. This is not to say that it will do so endlessly without proper maintenance. Springs are changed every 500 - 1000 rds. 500 is best, but I've been field testing these to see how far they'll go. One of my associates shot his steel framed Officers Model exclusively for 2 seasons of IDPA competition and practice over a 2 yr. period with over 20,000 rds. before it became a totally unreliable POS. Parts started cracking and breaking with regularity and we never expected it to last this long.

For my defensive needs, I ensure all parts fit and function properly, then the weapon must survive a minimum 1000 rounds without any weapon or part related failures whatsoever with defensive quality ammo. I practice with them frequently to ensure the weapons capabilities and mine. But, I'll admit that the vast majority of my training, competition and practice is with a full sized 5" 1911. For duty use I recommend the 5" version only. For CCW use I recommend the 5" version generally speaking. Understand the weapons limitations and minimize the potential for failures. The LW Commander and CCO have fewer problems overall if well fitted in my experience.

That's what I know, take it for what it's worth - or not. My experience is far from scientific and is just a small sampling of what's out there. I don't take others to task for their choices, but you should be able to intelligently explain and competently demonstrate why those choices are made. Just make sure that whatever CCW piece you choose has at least 500 rds. minimum of quality, full powered defensive ammo through it with zero failures or malfunctions before you trust it. And, before you buy any more guns, I recommend professional training from a known and proven instructor to ensure that you get the most out of yourself and your weapon system. YMMV and good luck.

[old grunt]

MX5: Thanks for your insight! I too have Gov't Model(Series 70, circa 1984,85)but find I've always carried the OM once I got it. The new EGW set-up I spoke about looks like it solved any cycling issues and the ISMI springs are supposed to last ALOT longer than standard recoil springs. I will keep an eye on things as you said, but I feel more confident in keeping the pistol configured as it is....a steel-framed Colt OM. THANKS AGAIN!!:D