View Full Version : Stag Arms Gets FFL Revoked
Boba Fett v2
12-22-15, 15:41
http://bearingarms.com/stag-feds-revoke-ar-15-manufacturers-license-sloppy-record-keeping/?utm_source=bafbp&utm_medium=fbpage&utm_campaign=baupdate
"Stag Arms, the Connecticut-based AR-15 manufacturer, has*lost it’s federal firearms license*as a result of not properly keeping track of serialized lower receivers.
New Britain-based Stag Firearms LLC pleaded guilty Tuesday to violating federal firearms laws and as part of a plea agreement company president and owner Mark Malkowski agreed to sell the company and have no further ownership or management role in a gun manufacturer.
The company, with Malkowski serving as its representative, pleaded guilty in U.S. District Court in Hartford to a single felony count of possession of a machine gun not registered to the company.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is also revoking Stag’s federal license to manufacture firearms.
Malkowski is also scheduled to plead guilty Wednesday in U.S. District Court in New Haven to a misdemeanor count of failure to maintain firearms records.
The federal government began its investigation of Stag in July 2014, after a routine Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms inspection turned up a variety of recording keeping violations, missing firearms and unregistered firearms, the government said.
The guilty plea, Stag said in a prepared statement, was in the best interest of the company and its approximately 100 employees. Malkowski is in advanced talks with a New York private equity firm to sell the company, Stag and the government said.
“For the first time in Connecticut, and there have only been a few of these prosecutions throughout the nation, a large manufacturer is pleading guilty to a felony charge relating to record keeping violations,” Connecticut U.S. Attorney Deirdre M. Daly said Tuesday. The company will pay a fine of $500,000 as part of the plea agreement.
For his guilty plea, Malkowski, 37, will pay a $100,000 fine and will not be permitted to own, operate or manage a firearms company.
As we noted earlier this year,*Stag Arms was raided for stupidity, not criminal enterprise. They did not properly serialize and track lower receivers at the time of their creation as required by law, and are receiving a harsh penalty as a result.
It is unclear at this time what will become of the company or it’s employees as a result of the plea deal."
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http://bearingarms.com/stag-feds-revoke-ar-15-manufacturers-license-sloppy-record-keeping/?utm_source=bafbp&utm_medium=fbpage&utm_campaign=baupdate
"Stag Arms, the Connecticut-based AR-15 manufacturer, has*lost it’s federal firearms license*as a result of not properly keeping track of serialized lower receivers.
New Britain-based Stag Firearms LLC pleaded guilty Tuesday to violating federal firearms laws and as part of a plea agreement company president and owner Mark Malkowski agreed to sell the company and have no further ownership or management role in a gun manufacturer.
The company, with Malkowski serving as its representative, pleaded guilty in U.S. District Court in Hartford to a single felony count of possession of a machine gun not registered to the company.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is also revoking Stag’s federal license to manufacture firearms.
Malkowski is also scheduled to plead guilty Wednesday in U.S. District Court in New Haven to a misdemeanor count of failure to maintain firearms records.
The federal government began its investigation of Stag in July 2014, after a routine Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms inspection turned up a variety of recording keeping violations, missing firearms and unregistered firearms, the government said.
The guilty plea, Stag said in a prepared statement, was in the best interest of the company and its approximately 100 employees. Malkowski is in advanced talks with a New York private equity firm to sell the company, Stag and the government said.
“For the first time in Connecticut, and there have only been a few of these prosecutions throughout the nation, a large manufacturer is pleading guilty to a felony charge relating to record keeping violations,” Connecticut U.S. Attorney Deirdre M. Daly said Tuesday. The company will pay a fine of $500,000 as part of the plea agreement.
For his guilty plea, Malkowski, 37, will pay a $100,000 fine and will not be permitted to own, operate or manage a firearms company.
As we noted earlier this year,*Stag Arms was raided for stupidity, not criminal enterprise. They did not properly serialize and track lower receivers at the time of their creation as required by law, and are receiving a harsh penalty as a result.
It is unclear at this time what will become of the company or it’s employees as a result of the plea deal."
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Had the machine guns been destined for FSA/AQ/Mexico, no prosecution had taken place.
Clerical error = lose your entire business.
They should have simply been able to correct the error since it wasn't a "willful violation." Only in the firearms business can you lose EVERYTHING because you missed something on the books.
The new owner should IMMEDIATELY relocate out of Connecticut.
Clerical error = lose your entire business.
They should have simply been able to correct the error since it wasn't a "willful violation." Only in the firearms business can you lose EVERYTHING because you missed something on the books.
The new owner should IMMEDIATELY relocate out of Connecticut.
Wasn't there a similar situation with that Red Jacket outfit on the tv show? Ended up having to txfer the business to the Daughter.
Of course, that was before he was revealed to be a fvckd up human turd kid toucher.
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Pretty much what happened to Sabre also.
No criminal intent, even the ATF said so, but this is more than just clerical errors...I remember reading about this earlier in the year, and they were accused of having up to 3000 unserialized parts, in violation of federal law, to which the owner replied that his engraver was out of town on vacation. When ATF went back, they noted that many of the same parts were still not serialized since their first visit.
556BlackRifle
12-22-15, 18:00
Clerical error = lose your entire business.
They should have simply been able to correct the error since it wasn't a "willful violation." Only in the firearms business can you lose EVERYTHING because you missed something on the books.
The new owner should IMMEDIATELY relocate out of Connecticut.
I agree. Wouldn't it be great if we could hold bureaucrats and politicians to the same standards.....
ColtSeavers
12-22-15, 18:21
No criminal intent, even the ATF said so, but this is more than just clerical errors...I remember reading about this earlier in the year, and they were accused of having up to 3000 unserialized parts, in violation of federal law, to which the owner replied that his engraver was out of town on vacation. When ATF went back, they noted that many of the same parts were still not serialized since their first visit.
If memory serves, Stag had also transported the unserialized lowers from one of their facilities to another, which was another big no-no.
I agree. Wouldn't it be great if we could hold bureaucrats and politicians to the same standards.....
No kidding...really.
A. Did anyone actually read the article and the original articles when it happened? Probably should get the info from elsewhere other than "Bearing Arms".
B. Obliterated serial numbers and losing track of 200 firearms is a pretty big deal. Add to this an anti-gun administration, being in an anti-gun state and the outcome isn't hard to predict.
http://fox61.com/2015/12/22/stag-arms-owner-pleads-guilty-to-federal-firearms-charges-must-leave-gun-business/
That's sad news. I have always liked Stag Arms products. Here's hoping a buyer can be found quickly and a new FFL and manufacturing license issued ASAP In their name.
Yeah, this sucks for any manufacturer. Maybe they will get bought out.....maybe even get rid of the deer head logo.
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In 1776, there weren't any serials on anything...
In 1776, there weren't any serials on anything...
Excellent point.
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So how do you have 3000 unserialized machine gun receivers... Unless they were assembled with full auto parts?
I'm suspicious that it's just AR receivers inaccurately reported.
Hate to see a US mfg go down for paperwork, even if serious. Took down Sabre on similar. Not defending either, but at times the BATF can be aggressive in enforcement. Does sound like Stag got sloppy though.
The law was changed and it's been that way for several decades. If you want to be in the game, you need to play by the rules it's that simple.
In 1776, there weren't any serials on anything...
ATF investigators found that more than 3,000 gun receivers --the part of the gun that includes the trigger and firing mechanism--were not properly registered, violating the National Firearms Act. Federal agents also discovered a total of 62 fully automatic machine guns and machine gun receivers which were either registered somewhere else or not registered at all.
First off, you have to dissect this whole thing. Remember that reporters and media know next to jack shit. The 3000 firearms receivers were most likely not any kind of NFA violation, but most likely they did not record the serial numbers correctly or at all. The other 62 receivers mentioned could have been anything. Most people are unaware that once the sear pin hole is drilled that receiver is now considered a machine gun. Prior to that happening you must submit a Form 2 to the BATFE.
If they cannot account for those receivers they have big issues. In fact, most people will tell you that many dealers get shut down for sloppy record keeping and losing inventory which is why Red Jacket lost their FFL several years back. Vince and then later Joe and Charlie were the ones who were holding the FFL until everything imploded.
So how do you have 3000 unserialized machine gun receivers... Unless they were assembled with full auto parts?
I'm suspicious that it's just AR receivers inaccurately reported.
Hate to see a US mfg go down for paperwork, even if serious. Took down Sabre on similar. Not defending either, but at times the BATF can be aggressive in enforcement. Does sound like Stag got sloppy though.
Moose-Knuckle
12-23-15, 02:29
I agree. Wouldn't it be great if we could hold bureaucrats and politicians to the same standards.....
Eric Fast & Furious Holder is allowed to remain a free man and practice law making millions in income each calendar year.
Yeah, that's justice . . .
Had the machine guns been destined for FSA/AQ/Mexico, no prosecution had taken place.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
In 1776, there weren't any serials on anything...
Great point.
The law was changed and it's been that way for several decades. If you want to be in the game, you need to play by the rules it's that simple.
The law has to follow the rules too, i.e. the Constitution.
Same goes for Holder, Hussein et al, who follow neither their own laws nor the Constitution.
Eric Fast & Furious Holder is allowed to remain a free man and practice law making millions in income each calendar year.
Yeah, that's justice . . .
That Marxist belongs in maximum security.
Where does the Constitution state that a firearm doesn't need a serial number? It doesn't. Everything in the Constitution is subject to some regulation. A serial in no way takes away your right to own or possess a firearm.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
Great point.
The law has to follow the rules too, i.e. the Constitution.
Same goes for Holder, Hussein et al, who follow neither their own laws nor the Constitution.
That Marxist belongs in maximum security.
Gotta play by the rules, regardless. Frankly, I'm shocked a company as mainstream as Stag let this get away from them. ESPECIALLY given the current political climate re: guns.
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Gotta play by the rules, regardless. Frankly, I'm shocked a company as mainstream as Stag let this get away from them. ESPECIALLY given the current political climate re: guns.
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I would bet they have been sloppy for a long time, and it finally caught up with them. I was looking in the articles to see mention of previous violations, but didn't see it. I would still be willing to bet they have had numerous violations during previous ATF inspections, but never were severely punished.
Lesson to others, keep your books tight, hire good compliance people, etc....do not give them an excuse!
3ACR_Scout
12-23-15, 07:11
The 3000 firearms receivers were most likely not any kind of NFA violation, but most likely they did not record the serial numbers correctly or at all.
I recall when this first came up last year that the report was that they were producing the lowers and moving them into the warehouse, but they were not entering the serial numbers into their records in any sort of timely manner. I.e., they were stamping serial numbers on the lowers but not making the corresponding entry into their records for each one produced, so they had no documentation of those 3000 lowers that the ATF counted in the warehouse. It's been a while, though, so I can't confirm if that was explained in an article or if that was word of mouth from a local forum member.
Dave
I recall when this first came up last year that the report was that they were producing the lowers and moving them into the warehouse, but they were not entering the serial numbers into their records in any sort of timely manner. I.e., they were stamping serial numbers on the lowers but not making the corresponding entry into their records for each one produced, so they had no documentation of those 3000 lowers that the ATF counted in the warehouse. It's been a while, though, so I can't confirm if that was explained in an article or if that was word of mouth from a local forum member.
Dave
There were a number of receivers w/o serialization, and the excuse was that the engraver was on vacation.
Where does the Constitution state that a firearm doesn't need a serial number? It doesn't. Everything in the Constitution is subject to some regulation. A serial in no way takes away your right to own or possess a firearm.
The Constitution specifically lists what government may do. Dabbling in the firearms business(other than barring states from setting up tariffs and so on which goes for any product) including demanding serial numbers or other manufacturing techniques isn't listed in their allowed functions at all.
The Constitution specifically lists what government may do. Dabbling in the firearms business(other than barring states from setting up tariffs and so on which goes for any product) including demanding serial numbers or other manufacturing techniques isn't listed in their allowed functions at all.
This.
I was gonna say where does the constitution say it can allow government to require businesses to serialize anything?
This.
I was gonna say where does the constitution say it can allow government to require businesses to serialize anything?
No one forced Stag or any other manufacture to get into the business of manufacturing guns. By getting all the licenses through the ATF you're agreeing to play by their rules.
I don't get why people want to argue the legality of it. They got machines shops that can easily converted to manufacture something that doesn't require ATF overhead and still be profitable. If they want to be a gun manufacturers then they've agree to play with the ATF.
Clerical error = lose your entire business.
They should have simply been able to correct the error since it wasn't a "willful violation." Only in the firearms business can you lose EVERYTHING because you missed something on the books.
The new owner should IMMEDIATELY relocate out of Connecticut.
Except they had 8 years to fix the problem, and did not. Local gunstore had the same problem. They were nabbed a few years ago by the ATF for not properly completing 4473s. Promised to fix the problem and they did not, so they got their license revoked.
No one forced Stag or any other manufacture to get into the business of manufacturing guns. By getting all the licenses through the ATF you're agreeing to play by their rules.
I don't get why people want to argue the legality of it. They got machines shops that can easily converted to manufacture something that doesn't require ATF overhead and still be profitable. If they want to be a gun manufacturers then they've agree to play with the ATF.
People want to argue the legality of it because we should all be arguing against these politicians who make these laws and regs making it difficult to acquire or outright preventing citizens from having products specifically protected by the constitution. In the country as created by our founding fathers, serial numbers should not get stag in trouble and I think anyone who agrees with Connecticut encourages the nanny state.
No one forced Stag or any other manufacture to get into the business of manufacturing guns. By getting all the licenses through the ATF you're agreeing to play by their rules.
I don't get why people want to argue the legality of it. They got machines shops that can easily converted to manufacture something that doesn't require ATF overhead and still be profitable. If they want to be a gun manufacturers then they've agree to play with the ATF.
I don't think people are arguing your point, it's just a reminder that these laws shouldn't exist in the first place.
Another example is NFA. 10.5" rifles should no longer be NFA items based on the intent of the law, and the whole thing is unconstitutional IMO, but we still play by the rules because it's much easier and more enjoyable to pay $200 and wait 6mo then to Try to stick it to the man and fight through the courts. But we still don't think it's right.
[B]
If they cannot account for those receivers they have big issues. In fact, most people will tell you that many dealers get shut down for sloppy record keeping and losing inventory which is why Red Jacket lost their FFL several years back. Vince and then later Joe and Charlie were the ones who were holding the FFL until everything imploded.
We had that happen recently to a LGS, but this just wasn't a few guns it was like 2500 missing, some FA. ATF gave them plenty of chances to correct it but wasn't able to or didn't want to, not sure which.
Where does the Constitution state that a firearm doesn't need a serial number? It doesn't. Everything in the Constitution is subject to some regulation. A serial in no way takes away your right to own or possess a firearm.
The Constitution doesn't state a lot of things. That doesn't mean they are authorized, particularly when dealing with the federal government vs that of the states'.
The Constitution specifically lists what government may do. Dabbling in the firearms business(other than barring states from setting up tariffs and so on which goes for any product) including demanding serial numbers or other manufacturing techniques isn't listed in their allowed functions at all.
Exactly this.
No one forced Stag or any other manufacture to get into the business of manufacturing guns. By getting all the licenses through the ATF you're agreeing to play by their rules.
I don't get why people want to argue the legality of it. They got machines shops that can easily converted to manufacture something that doesn't require ATF overhead and still be profitable. If they want to be a gun manufacturers then they've agree to play with the ATF.
Sure, but your premise is that that they have the grounds to make these particular rules.
No one forced the individual politicians and bureaucrats to become what they became. By getting into the business of government, they agreed to play by the rules - the Constitution.
People want to argue the legality of it because we should all be arguing against these politicians who make these laws and regs making it difficult to acquire or outright preventing citizens from having products specifically protected by the constitution. In the country as created by our founding fathers, serial numbers should not get stag in trouble and I think anyone who agrees with Connecticut encourages the nanny state.
Well put. We are a nation of laws, not men, but those laws are not merely anything that a men write down. If they were, all tyranny would be justified, as it's justification would rest on pen and paper alone.
Sure, but your premise is that that they have the grounds to make these particular rules.
No one forced the individual politicians and bureaucrats to become what they became. By getting into the business of government, they agreed to play by the rules - the Constitution.
I'm not stating that they have the authority to make these laws. They are law and are currently in place, so to hold a license to make or hold the firearms they must be followed or face federal charges. if they deem that is to big a risk then get out the game. They know this everyday, it is not a surprise.
Until we can get these laws change if you could find good standing as why they are unconstitutional that will hold up all the way to SCOTUS, then these remain law.
We are a community that IMO are better than the left as we comprehend and follow these laws more so than any other group of citizen that follow any other laws. We have too, or face federal charges on a daily basis. Until we can get unconstitutional laws off the books. I deem that the NFA is unconstitutional but as a act of rebellion I'm not gonna run out and make SBRs without a tax stamp.
With what we all do, we have to be better and we have to be bigger than anyone who challenges us. Other wise we are the "radical gun owners", the "crazy conspiracy theorist" yet we always bring the facts. We can't afford to be wrong, in any situation.
So sometimes that means compromise and play friendly with the ATF to get what we want, or until we cans get the laws changed.
They could come around and say Heller protect it your right to own a gun, but doesn't protect the right to manufacture it. Then where do we go?
A. Did anyone actually read the article and the original articles when it happened? Probably should get the info from elsewhere other than "Bearing Arms".
B. Obliterated serial numbers and losing track of 200 firearms is a pretty big deal. Add to this an anti-gun administration, being in an anti-gun state and the outcome isn't hard to predict.
http://fox61.com/2015/12/22/stag-arms-owner-pleads-guilty-to-federal-firearms-charges-must-leave-gun-business/
If I remember correctly Fast and Furious lost track of more than that and one of those guns was used to murder a law enforcement officer. When does ATF get their license to operate revoked?
Unfortunately, this can be the result from not following cGMP. Their regulatory and compliance department should have never allowed this.
Any company that does not look into cGMP and comply with that is short sighted. Meeting compliance can make a harder case then when they look at cGMP that can exceed that for many purposes beyond this issue.
This.
I was gonna say where does the constitution say it can allow government to require businesses to serialize anything?
Article I, Section 8, Clause 3. The commerce clause.
jackblack73
12-23-15, 19:01
Article I, Section 8, Clause 3. The commerce clause.
I was just about to post the same. I'm no constitutional scholar, but the government can do many things that are not specifically enumerated in the Constitution because of the interstate commerce clause.
Averageman
12-23-15, 19:16
A Bit more on this from another article;
Stag Arms Pleads Guilty To Violating Federal Firearms Laws; Owner Will Sell Company - Hartford Courant
The government said about 200 firearms could not be accounted for at Stag's John Downey Drive facilities. "We don't know where they are, whether they were stolen, whether they're on the streets, or whether they're just in the wrong hands," Daly said.
The company pleaded guilty to possession of 62 machine guns and machine gun receivers that were registered to another entity or not registered at all. ATF agents found the automatic rifles and receivers at the New Britain factory during an inspection July 15, 2014.
Eleven machine guns were registered to an entity in the Philippines, one to a police department and 25 to another manufacturer. The remaining 25 machine gun receivers — the portion of the firearm that houses the operating parts and on which the serial number is engraved — did not have serial numbers, the government said.
Malkowski told U.S. Magistrate Judge Donna F. Martinez during the company's plea hearing that the machine guns in question were to be sold, but the sales agreement fell through. Stag Arms kept the weapons and failed to update records, he told the judge.
In 2007, ATF inspectors found instances of poor record-keeping, administrative violations and regulatory violations, but worked with Stag to bring it into compliance, said Nealy Earl, area head of industry operations for ATF.
The problems found during the 2014 compliance review at Stag Arms were similar or worse than those found in 2007, prompting the recommendation for criminal action, Earl said. Assistant U.S. Attorney S. Dave Vatti described the new violations as "egregious and systemic."
So having gone through this before, they got caught again and the violations this time were worse than in 2007.
Yeah, they had it coming.
If they care so little about their licence, business or going to jail, how do you think they feel about keeping their Quality Control and Customer Service in order?
I was just about to post the same. I'm no constitutional scholar, but the government can do many things that are not specifically enumerated in the Constitution because of the interstate commerce clause.
No. Can because of ignorance maybe.
Article I, Section 8, Clause 3. The commerce clause.
Regulate did not mean then, what it means today. Intetent is the key word, and it seems to have been lost lately in reference to the constitution.
"Commerce clause" is typically up there with "separation of church and state"
No one forced Stag or any other manufacture to get into the business of manufacturing guns. By getting all the licenses through the ATF you're agreeing to play by their rules.
I don't get why people want to argue the legality of it. They got machines shops that can easily converted to manufacture something that doesn't require ATF overhead and still be profitable. If they want to be a gun manufacturers then they've agree to play with the ATF.
No one forced the federal government to do something not specifically listed in it's allowed list of functions.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Find where it is delegated to them. Otherwise we have the following:
“Our government ... teaches the whole people by its example. If the government becomes the lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy.” - JUSTICE LOUIS D. BRANDEIS
Creating exemptions for itself does not make it all good either.
So stupid. We need to get rid of the FFL laws ASAP. I'd like to get rid of the whole damn federal government for that matter.
Whether the Constitution authorized this FUBAR system or was powerless to prevent it, all that matters is the suited sociopaths act as if they have authority to do this type of shit and they have plenty of hired muscle that are willing to force it on everybody.
I was just about to post the same. I'm no constitutional scholar, but the government can do many things that are not specifically enumerated in the Constitution because of the interstate commerce clause.
The Commerce Clause came about from states passing tarriffs against products from other states. It was to open up trade, not shut it down as it is now used.
In Ogden in 1824 and Kidd in 1888 the Supreme Court gives congress a pretty broad definition when it comes to the commerce clause. It's not only about tariffs.
In Ogden in 1824 and Kidd in 1888 the Supreme Court gives congress a pretty broad definition when it comes to the commerce clause. It's not only about tariffs.
I am aware the supreme Court has frequently legislated from the bench.
Pretty much what happened to Sabre also.
uh, no. Unless you know that Stag is involved in a whole helluva lot of other stuff.
titsonritz
12-23-15, 23:26
Pretty much what happened to Sabre also.
conspiracy to defraud the United States, conspiracy to commit mail fraud and wire fraud, making false statements on export and import documents, and for conspiracy to violate the Arms Export Control Act.
A bit of a step up
http://www.brentwoodhomepage.com/brentwood-man-pleads-guilty-in-arms-trafficking-case-cms-4827#.VnuBcI-cEqR
I am aware the supreme Court has frequently legislated from the bench.
Surely the Supreme Court, sitting 37 years after the constitution was ratified had less of an understanding about the meaning and purpose of that clause then some guys on a forum 228 years later. Sorry, Stag makes firearms and those firearms are mostly sold interstate so the Feds get to require serial numbers. Similarly, if you complete an 80% receiver for your own use its not part of interstate commerce and there's no serial number required. I dislike most firearms regulations as much as the next guy but I'm afraid this one doesn't even border on unconstitutional.
Probably when people stop voting for stupid politicians that refuse to hold bureaucrats responsible since that is what they were elected to do.
Unfortunately everyone is barking up the wrong tree here.
If I remember correctly Fast and Furious lost track of more than that and one of those guns was used to murder a law enforcement officer. When does ATF get their license to operate revoked?
Lets look at this from another perspective.
SIONICS, being a manufacturer in a Mexico border state gets inspected every year. Stag, most likely gets inspected every 3-4 years. they know this and we know this.
Stag was negligent in their serial number records. They also failed to file form 2's on machine guns. They had firearms (receivers or complete guns) missing.
All of these are a big no no in this industry.
Local gun shops are shut down every year due being a to minor mistakes on 4473's... A single form.
Regardless of our rights to bear arms under 2A, laws have been passed dating back to 1968 that manufacturers and local gun shops have to abide by. Agree with them or not, we are a slave to them. NFA being a whole nother ball park.
We might not agree with them but as FFL's we signed off to agree to the laws.
If I remember correctly Fast and Furious lost track of more than that and one of those guns was used to murder a law enforcement officer. When does ATF get their license to operate revoked?
Great question. When does Obama's administration get its license to operate involved, given all their lawlessness?
No one forced the federal government to do something not specifically listed in it's allowed list of functions.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Find where it is delegated to them. Otherwise we have the following:
“Our government ... teaches the whole people by its example. If the government becomes the lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy.” - JUSTICE LOUIS D. BRANDEIS
Creating exemptions for itself does not make it all good either.
Great point.
There's always those that cite the Interstate Commerce clause as a carte blanche to government intrusion.
The thing is, even IF Stag ONLY sold receivers within its own state, the ATF would be all over their ass over serial numbers. SO, no, the Interstate Commerce clause is not the justification for the ATF.
Someone making their own suppressor involves ZERO interstate commerce, yet the ATF is all over that.
Lets look at this from another perspective.
SIONICS, being a manufacturer in a Mexico border state gets inspected every year. Stag, most likely gets inspected every 3-4 years. they know this and we know this.
Stag was negligent in their serial number records. They also failed to file form 2's on machine guns. They had firearms (receivers or complete guns) missing.
All of these are a big no no in this industry.
Local gun shops are shut down every year due being a to minor mistakes on 4473's... A single form.
Regardless of our rights to bear arms under 2A, laws have been passed dating back to 1968 that manufacturers and local gun shops have to abide by. Agree with them or not, we are a slave to them. NFA being a whole nother ball park.
We might not agree with them but as FFL's we signed off to agree to the laws.
Damn Good Point.
The Constitution specifically lists what government may do. Dabbling in the firearms business(other than barring states from setting up tariffs and so on which goes for any product) including demanding serial numbers or other manufacturing techniques isn't listed in their allowed functions at all.
This.
I was gonna say where does the constitution say it can allow government to require businesses to serialize anything?
Firearms are tied up in "interstate commerce."
The "Necessary and Proper Clause" (Article I, Section 8, Clause 18) -
"The Congress shall have Power ... To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."
"Commerce Clause" (Article I, Section 8, Clause 3) -
Gives the U.S. Congress the power ". . . to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes."
The "Necessary and Proper Clause" has been paired with the "Commerce Clause" to provide the constitutional basis for a wide variety of federal laws.
Constitutional law is not my specialty (energy/utilities law is) but this is just some basic stuff.
Hope that makes sense. In a nutshell, both the "Necessary and Proper Clause" and "Commerce Clause" give the federal government broad power to regulate anything involving interstate commerce - and firearms unequivocally fall into the interstate commerce basket.
So while the Constitution does not necessarily specifically enumerate all of the federal government's powers, it does have critical sections which are written very broadly/generically, in turn giving the federal government vast and sweeping power.
Moose-Knuckle
12-24-15, 03:28
I don't think people are arguing your point, it's just a reminder that these laws shouldn't exist in the first place.
Another example is NFA. 10.5" rifles should no longer be NFA items based on the intent of the law, and the whole thing is unconstitutional IMO, but we still play by the rules because it's much easier and more enjoyable to pay $200 and wait 6mo then to Try to stick it to the man and fight through the courts. But we still don't think it's right.
If I remember correctly Fast and Furious lost track of more than that and one of those guns was used to murder a law enforcement officer. When does ATF get their license to operate revoked?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAKFlpdcfc
Surely the Supreme Court, sitting 37 years after the constitution was ratified had less of an understanding about the meaning and purpose of that clause then some guys on a forum 228 years later. Sorry, Stag makes firearms and those firearms are mostly sold interstate so the Feds get to require serial numbers. Similarly, if you complete an 80% receiver for your own use its not part of interstate commerce and there's no serial number required. I dislike most firearms regulations as much as the next guy but I'm afraid this one doesn't even border on unconstitutional.
They had an agenda from the start. The supreme Court gave a thumbs up to the alien and sedition acts even earlier which were intended to keep John Adams in office by making it an offense to criticize Adams in any way. Care to explain how that doesn't abridge freedom of speech?
Averageman
12-24-15, 08:40
You can argue all you like about Constitutional intent, in the end if you choose to go in to the business of manufacturing guns you might want to sit that aside and deal with the here and now.
You don't like the rules, don't play the game and yes I agree it is a game. I would guess if you have a question about the rules you can always invite the ATF to come in and give a courtesy inspection to show you the meaning and intent right there in your factory. I'm sure they would be happy to come and take a look for you, that being said, you had better have your ducks in a row before they get there.
Stag had F/A capable guns on the premises that were to go to a Filipino P.D., when the deal fell through, they should have notified the ATF and took the appropriate steps to make it known and take action to be within regulation, clearly they didn't.
This, being after having their hands slapped in '07, they should have known better. Stupid games with stupid people win you a stupid prize. That's the modern reality.
Jefferson and Adams aren't going to show up at your hearing and set it all right with the Fed's. It's the modern reality of the business, if you don't like it stay out of the business.
How exactly are We, The People, supposed to fully exercise our Right, and Duty, to throw off a tyrannical Government, and to provide new Guards for our future security, with registered, serialized, and neutered weapons?
You can argue all you like about Constitutional intent, in the end if you choose to go in to the business of manufacturing guns you might want to sit that aside and deal with the here and now.
You don't like the rules, don't play the game and yes I agree it is a game. I would guess if you have a question about the rules you can always invite the ATF to come in and give a courtesy inspection to show you the meaning and intent right there in your factory. I'm sure they would be happy to come and take a look for you, that being said, you had better have your ducks in a row before they get there.
Stag had F/A capable guns on the premises that were to go to a Filipino P.D., when the deal fell through, they should have notified the ATF and took the appropriate steps to make it known and take action to be within regulation, clearly they didn't.
This, being after having their hands slapped in '07, they should have known better. Stupid games with stupid people win you a stupid prize. That's the modern reality.
Jefferson and Adams aren't going to show up at your hearing and set it all right with the Fed's. It's the modern reality of the business, if you don't like it stay out of the business.
Adams and the other Federalists(the party that became the Whigs and eventually the Republicans) would not have any problems with over reaching government. Jefferson apparently would have.
Quite a difference between recognizing it is how it is and calling it legit. Germans from 70 years ago shoveling Zyklon pellets was how it was (and probably more legal under German law than this nonsense ever has been), but just because they were doing it under color of authority does not change the fact of how wrong it was.
How exactly are We, The People, supposed to fully exercise our Right, and Duty, to throw off a tyrannical Government, and to provide new Guards for our future security, with registered, serialized, and neutered weapons?
Honestly, thinking about it critically, our main power and defense is the citizen soldier and the independent nature of our people. There are enough serving officers, NCO's and troops at any one time who understand the Constitution and the oath they took that widespread attacks on the citizens and confiscation would be a non starter. That is true now and into the near future, far future, it depends on how the world evolves.
On an emotional basis, I would like NFA to go away. On a cognitive basis, I've never been down with the 'if you can afford anything, iyou can have anything' mindset. My concern is not with full auto weapons and silencers, my concern is that most folks can't simply afford to buy MBT's, SAMS, attack aircraft, etc. so we could be at the mercy of evil minded individuals or organizations who mean us harm.
Think of the richest folks in America with standing armies, not security forces, armies with tanks, air defense artillery, attack aircraft and fighters. As long as they were for the citizens it would be okay, but, to me, it is bad enough the government has that power, much less the Koch Brothers, George Sorros, Warren Buffet, or Bill and Melinda Gates.
Those are my thoughts FWIW.
conspiracy to defraud the United States, conspiracy to commit mail fraud and wire fraud, making false statements on export and import documents, and for conspiracy to violate the Arms Export Control Act.
A bit of a step up
http://www.brentwoodhomepage.com/brentwood-man-pleads-guilty-in-arms-trafficking-case-cms-4827#.VnuBcI-cEqR
The whole Sabre thing "stank" and we mainly are hearing the gov's side. But who knows, aspects were fishy, especially the international aspect.
That said, at the heart of the sabre mess was unserialized receivers, inaccurate logs, etc, and NFA "machine gun" parts. In that regard, similar to Stag.
The ATF has enough history of aggressive enforcement that I'll give mfgs benefit of doubt until proven otherwise. I know enough smaller FFL's harassed out of existence based on interpretation, not law. Ex: invalidating 4473s based on abbreviation of the state, or not. (I know FFL's who have been hammered one way or the other, clearly contradictory directions by the ATF.)
Honestly, thinking about it critically, our main power and defense is the citizen soldier and the independent nature of our people. There are enough serving officers, NCO's and troops at any one time who understand the Constitution and the oath they took that widespread attacks on the citizens and confiscation would be a non starter. That is true now and into the near future, far future, it depends on how the world evolves.
On an emotional basis, I would like NFA to go away. On a cognitive basis, I've never been down with the 'if you can afford anything, iyou can have anything' mindset. My concern is not with full auto weapons and silencers, my concern is that most folks can't simply afford to buy MBT's, SAMS, attack aircraft, etc. so we could be at the mercy of evil minded individuals or organizations who mean us harm.
Think of the richest folks in America with standing armies, not security forces, armies with tanks, air defense artillery, attack aircraft and fighters. As long as they were for the citizens it would be okay, but, to me, it is bad enough the government has that power, much less the Koch Brothers, George Sorros, Warren Buffet, or Bill and Melinda Gates.
Those are my thoughts FWIW.
In a very real way they already do have that and the rest of us get to pay for it.
Also, based on US citizens getting interned in the 1940's and other incidents before and after that time, I really don't have much hope in bad policies getting ignored.
Honestly, thinking about it critically, our main power and defense is the citizen soldier and the independent nature of our people. There are enough serving officers, NCO's and troops at any one time who understand the Constitution and the oath they took that widespread attacks on the citizens and confiscation would be a non starter. That is true now and into the near future, far future, it depends on how the world evolves.
On an emotional basis, I would like NFA to go away. On a cognitive basis, I've never been down with the 'if you can afford anything, iyou can have anything' mindset. My concern is not with full auto weapons and silencers, my concern is that most folks can't simply afford to buy MBT's, SAMS, attack aircraft, etc. so we could be at the mercy of evil minded individuals or organizations who mean us harm.
Think of the richest folks in America with standing armies, not security forces, armies with tanks, air defense artillery, attack aircraft and fighters. As long as they were for the citizens it would be okay, but, to me, it is bad enough the government has that power, much less the Koch Brothers, George Sorros, Warren Buffet, or Bill and Melinda Gates.
Those are my thoughts FWIW.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/04/05/article-1373571-006AE2E300000258-911_634x836.jpg
The whole Sabre thing "stank" and we mainly are hearing the gov's side. But who knows, aspects were fishy, especially the international aspect.
That said, at the heart of the sabre mess was unserialized receivers, inaccurate logs, etc, and NFA "machine gun" parts. In that regard, similar to Stag.
The ATF has enough history of aggressive enforcement that I'll give mfgs benefit of doubt until proven otherwise. I know enough smaller FFL's harassed out of existence based on interpretation, not law. Ex: invalidating 4473s based on abbreviation of the state, or not. (I know FFL's who have been hammered one way or the other, clearly contradictory directions by the ATF.)
No, the investigation of Sabre Defense was started because of a report about a residential burglary taken by local law enforcement. Something was fishy, so they dug deeper. Feds got involved. Then they found paperwork "issues", and ultimately it ended with false bottoms in conex boxes, suppressors marked as lawnmower parts, doubled serial numbers, with a shitload of damning evidence right on their e-mail servers (one line I recall went something like "if we can find someone dumb enough to sign the shipping documents").
Inaccurate logs are not the same thing as falsified logs.
Many investigations start as one thing then morph into another once a string gets pulled. The only similarities here are that they were both firearms manufacturers.
Thank you. ITAR is a big deal and will sink you. Some people don't get it and need to find a conspiracy behind every grassy knoll.
No, the investigation of Sabre Defense was started because of a report about a residential burglary taken by local law enforcement. Something was fishy, so they dug deeper. Feds got involved. Then they found paperwork "issues", and ultimately it ended with false bottoms in conex boxes, suppressors marked as lawnmower parts, doubled serial numbers, with a shitload of damning evidence right on their e-mail servers (one line I recall went something like "if we can find someone dumb enough to sign the shipping documents").
Inaccurate logs are not the same thing as falsified logs.
Many investigations start as one thing then morph into another once a string gets pulled. The only similarities here are that they were both firearms manufacturers.
They had an agenda from the start. The supreme Court gave a thumbs up to the alien and sedition acts even earlier which were intended to keep John Adams in office by making it an offense to criticize Adams in any way. Care to explain how that doesn't abridge freedom of speech?
Sure. No they didn't.
ETA: But I think we may be bordering on going off topic so we may just have to agree to disagree on this particular constitutional issue.
Firearms are tied up in "interstate commerce."
The "Necessary and Proper Clause" (Article I, Section 8, Clause 18) -
"The Congress shall have Power ... To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."
"Commerce Clause" (Article I, Section 8, Clause 3) -
Gives the U.S. Congress the power ". . . to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes."
The "Necessary and Proper Clause" has been paired with the "Commerce Clause" to provide the constitutional basis for a wide variety of federal laws.
Constitutional law is not my specialty (energy/utilities law is) but this is just some basic stuff.
Hope that makes sense. In a nutshell, both the "Necessary and Proper Clause" and "Commerce Clause" give the federal government broad power to regulate anything involving interstate commerce - and firearms unequivocally fall into the interstate commerce basket.
So while the Constitution does not necessarily specifically enumerate all of the federal government's powers, it does have critical sections which are written very broadly/generically, in turn giving the federal government vast and sweeping power.
As a practicing J.D., you must be familiar with Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111 (1942), a case wherein the SCOTUS ruled that regulation of economic activity that was only indirectly related to interstate commerce (in this case, a farmer growing wheat for the sole purpose of feeding his own animals on his farm) was constitutional. The SCOTUS has greatly stretched the original meaning of the US Consititution, and that is why the feds are in everybody's face. The monster the Founding Fathers warned us of has been realized. Disarmament is next, to allow for complete control of the population.
POTUS exemplifies Australia as a "common-sense" approach to solving the gun violence problem, but very few people point out that the Australian government confiscated and melted down hundreds of thousands of firearms belonging to law-abiding citizens. Licensing and registration are the means by which to confiscate our arms. Arms in the hands of free men have no serial numbers.
http://hardnoxandfriends.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/NSW-no-reason_poster.jpg
No, the investigation of Sabre Defense was started because of a report about a residential burglary taken by local law enforcement. Something was fishy, so they dug deeper. Feds got involved. Then they found paperwork "issues", and ultimately it ended with false bottoms in conex boxes, suppressors marked as lawnmower parts, doubled serial numbers, with a shitload of damning evidence right on their e-mail servers (one line I recall went something like "if we can find someone dumb enough to sign the shipping documents").
Inaccurate logs are not the same thing as falsified logs.
Many investigations start as one thing then morph into another once a string gets pulled. The only similarities here are that they were both firearms manufacturers.
I had forgotten about the wire fraud, ITAR violations, etc. I'll concede Sabre had many additional charges, and intent. And Stag may have just been sloppy.
Thank you. ITAR is a big deal and will sink you. Some people don't get it and need to find a conspiracy behind every grassy knoll.
Not to defend Sabre execs, they clearly conspired to bypass ITAR.
But part of the court record and emails is that they had applied for export legally, and state had been sitting on it due to policy, etc. At the time, and presumably even currently even semi AR's are considered "weapons of war", etc.
The execs (Savage) frustration about State sitting on their applications is apparently what lead to the conspiracy based on emails in the court record. (Again, I'm not defending)
They had three lucrative federal contracts, was selling everything they built, as fast as they could ship it. They got greedy, and lost it all.
Grassy knoll conspiracy? clearly not. Caught up in federal politics? Quite possibly.
But you are right, AECA/ITAR is the law, and the feds take it seriously. They should have known better.
We can't have AR parts out in the rest of the world, they are dangerous you know. :-) Just thinking of how silly it is to ban legal export of AR-15 components as "weapons of war" when there are unlicensed mfg's making AR parts in several countries, friend and foe.
ITAR is one of those crazy federal things that results in nonsensical behavior. Ex: PRC-77's are functionally obsolete radios. They are widely available surplus in the UK, Germany, etc. No restrictions, and dumped by the US military there. It would be to our advantage if bad guys tried to use them, as they are heavy, low power, and don't do encryption. IE: Bad guys would have no interest. Yet regularly US citizens unknowingly commit ITAR violations selling parts or radios to an individual on ebay, etc. And the feds come down hard, even on individuals. There are many similar examples.
What the Sabre execs did is indefensible. But that does not mean ITAR is a good thing, clear cut, easy to follow, etc.
Not to defend Sabre execs, they clearly conspired to bypass ITAR.
But part of the court record and emails is that they had applied for export legally, and state had been sitting on it due to policy, etc. At the time, and presumably even currently even semi AR's are considered "weapons of war", etc.
The execs (Savage) frustration about State sitting on their applications is apparently what lead to the conspiracy based on emails in the court record. (Again, I'm not defending)
They had three lucrative federal contracts, was selling everything they built, as fast as they could ship it. They got greedy, and lost it all.
Grassy knoll conspiracy? clearly not. Caught up in federal politics? Quite possibly.
But you are right, AECA/ITAR is the law, and the feds take it seriously. They should have known better.
We can't have AR parts out in the rest of the world, they are dangerous you know. :-) Just thinking of how silly it is to ban legal export of AR-15 components as "weapons of war" when there are unlicensed mfg's making AR parts in several countries, friend and foe.
ITAR is one of those crazy federal things that results in nonsensical behavior. Ex: PRC-77's are functionally obsolete radios. They are widely available surplus in the UK, Germany, etc. No restrictions, and dumped by the US military there. It would be to our advantage if bad guys tried to use them, as they are heavy, low power, and don't do encryption. IE: Bad guys would have no interest. Yet regularly US citizens unknowingly commit ITAR violations selling parts or radios to an individual on ebay, etc. And the feds come down hard, even on individuals. There are many similar examples.
What the Sabre execs did is indefensible. But that does not mean ITAR is a good thing, clear cut, easy to follow, etc.
What the colonists did was surely indefensible too, yet we, and maybe even you, celebrate it every 4th.
Not worth the fight. It's Christmas.
As a practicing J.D., you must be familiar with Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111 (1942), a case wherein the SCOTUS ruled that regulation of economic activity that was only indirectly related to interstate commerce (in this case, a farmer growing wheat for the sole purpose of feeding his own animals on his farm) was constitutional. The SCOTUS has greatly stretched the original meaning of the US Consititution, and that is why the feds are in everybody's face. The monster the Founding Fathers warned us of has been realized. Disarmament is next, to allow for complete control of the population.
POTUS exemplifies Australia as a "common-sense" approach to solving the gun violence problem, but very few people point out that the Australian government confiscated and melted down hundreds of thousands of firearms belonging to law-abiding citizens. Licensing and registration are the means by which to confiscate our arms. Arms in the hands of free men have no serial numbers.
Yes sir! Very familiar with that case. I remember it distinctly as I was called upon to provide a case brief.
And you understood my original post perfectly, as it was meant to demonstrate how SCOTUS and Congress have, in piecemeal fashion, used particular clauses from the Constitution in order to broaden federal government power.
Completely agree with your points.
At least SCOTUS had the sense to reign in the Commerce Clause, albeit marginally, in Lopez v. United States, 514 U.S. 549 (1995). This time, the Court restricted interpretation of the Commerce Clause (with respect to firearms).
I am sure that you are familiar with that case as well. For those that are not, a brief synopsis:
The defendant was charged with carrying a handgun to school. This violated the federal Gun Free School Zones Act of 1990. The defendant argued that the federal government had no authority whatsoever to regulate firearms in local schools. The government asserted that this regulatory power fell under the Commerce Clause, as possession of a firearm in a school zone would surely lead to violent crime, thereby affecting "general economic conditions." Talk about a stretch!
Chief Justice Rehnquist rejected this argument, holding that Congress only has the power "to regulate the channels of commerce, the instrumentalities of commerce, and action that substantially affects interstate commerce." Thus, the Court declined further expanding the Commerce Clause, writing that “. . . to do so would require us to conclude that the Constitution's enumeration of powers does not presuppose something not enumerated, and that there never will be a distinction between what is truly national and what is truly local. This we are unwilling to do.”
And his reasoning ties back into my original post about what is specifically enumerated by the Constitution, and what has been enumerated/crafted by broad readings/interpretations of particular clauses.
How exactly are We, The People, supposed to fully exercise our Right, and Duty, to throw off a tyrannical Government, and to provide new Guards for our future security, with registered, serialized, and neutered weapons?
That's precisely why they're trying to disarm the populace.
Honestly, thinking about it critically, our main power and defense is the citizen soldier and the independent nature of our people. There are enough serving officers, NCO's and troops at any one time who understand the Constitution and the oath they took that widespread attacks on the citizens and confiscation would be a non starter. That is true now and into the near future, far future, it depends on how the world evolves.
On an emotional basis, I would like NFA to go away. On a cognitive basis, I've never been down with the 'if you can afford anything, iyou can have anything' mindset. My concern is not with full auto weapons and silencers, my concern is that most folks can't simply afford to buy MBT's, SAMS, attack aircraft, etc. so we could be at the mercy of evil minded individuals or organizations who mean us harm.
Think of the richest folks in America with standing armies, not security forces, armies with tanks, air defense artillery, attack aircraft and fighters. As long as they were for the citizens it would be okay, but, to me, it is bad enough the government has that power, much less the Koch Brothers, George Sorros, Warren Buffet, or Bill and Melinda Gates.
Those are my thoughts FWIW.
Valid concern, but the Taliban and all sorts of illiterate cave-dwelling goat-rapists around the world are able to wreak havoc on modern, advanced militaries with air forces, guided munitions, artillery, tanks, night vision, and every doo-dad you can think of.
Licensing and registration are the means by which to confiscate our arms.
Agree with this entirely, but there's still some freedom left.
Arms in the hands of free men have no serial numbers.
You are entirely fine building your own lower from an 80% (or a solid block of metal if you are so inclined) and not putting any kind of number on it. No forms, no paperwork, nothing required other than some time on a mill and a bit of knowledge. It's beyond the scope of many individuals (I can admit that without hesitation), but it is an option.
In what ways, if any, will this affect CMT? CMT is a government contractor and IIRC a business "brother" to Stag.
That's precisely why they're trying to disarm the populace.
Valid concern, but the Taliban and all sorts of illiterate cave-dwelling goat-rapists around the world are able to wreak havoc on modern, advanced, partially involved, hamstrung, militaries with air forces, guided munitions, artillery, tanks, night vision, and every doo-dad you can think of.
There fixed it for you, seriously speaking, if we REALLY went after them, would that be true? I don't believe so.
And I did forget to wish you joy during the Festival of Lights, Best Wishes for the New Year.
In a very real way they already do have that and the rest of us get to pay for it.
Yeah, I get what you are saying.
But in addition, I have a buddy that retired from his LEO job and essentially went to work as the SWAT team commander for one of the guys I listed, just an itty bit more than body guards.
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