Why Should We Support Georgia?

[i303]

I wanted to post this on the 'other thread' but b/c of petty bickering it got locked.

I'm no subject expert, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express. I do understand a bit about Georgia having some hope to visit before all this happened. What I know about Georgia comes from a family relative, now German (aunt-in-law?).

Georgians are very proud of their heritage which is based on their religion, Orthodox Christians. OC's have a strong tie to their past as the original Church of Christ and they have always been proud of their history specially during the Crusades.

Through the course of history Georgia was invaded by Persians, later came the Ottoman Empire. This is why they hate Muslims but have a tolerable relationship with Turkey now. After a very short independence after WW1, the Soviets invaded Georgia.

The Soviet Union always had a tough time with Georgia. Even though Czechoslovakia got more media attention, Georgia have always been Moscow's biggest thorn in the ass specifically the OC Church. After much policing by KGB, sending many Georgian's to a gulag, re-education camp, etc., Moscow finally barely tolerated the OC Church, however Georgia was always a powder keg. One of the things the Soviets did was to re-locate many hard core Soviets into Georgia, mainly Odessia and Abkhazia. Even though they tried it all over Georgia, Odessia was about as good as it was going to get for them. Georgian's have always given silent support to the west hoping that after WW2 they would get their chance since the USSR was busy incorporating all of E. Europe under their control.

When the USSR broke up in 1991, Georgia wasted no time telling Moscow to f-off and instantly reformed into a democratic Christian based country.

Georgian's are about a pro-US country as we are ever going to find. The fundamental reasons are #1, they see the US as a Christian founded country and get giddy when they see "Under God" in our currency (oh, they have much to learn and be disappointed) and my original Lebanese grandparents were also OC in Lebanon, and they too have they same sentiments as Georgians towards the US, sorta. #2, They really liked how the US has been at USSR's throat's for all those years. They give the US credit for the USSR break up. One of Moscow's diligence to have a foot on Georgia's neck during the Cold War era was them being convinced that Georgia would rebel against the USSR if hostilities ever broke out between US and USSR. Georgian's in the Soviet military have always been restricted from certain sensitive positions and usually were sent to other regions of the USSR. There were only a few allowed to be pilots, guess from which part of Georgia?

So you see, even to this day the old Soviets, Russians, and Georgian's have a hard on for each other, ...in a non homo erotic fashion.

Toe to toe, I hate to admit that Georgia won't hold once Russia brings down the fire (b/c 150 measly T72's and 80's aren't going to do it). But get a Georgian troop on the ground, they will make Chechnya and Iraq seem like Disneyland. They are very tough, very resourceful, and very determined. After centuries of foreign occupation Georgia has always maintained their identity. Georgia has always been an assignment to a hostile region for any Persian, Ottoman, and Soviet soldier.

So this will be interesting how it will come to a close. I sure hope we (as in the US) don't leave them hanging in the wind. From what I understand the reason Georgia wants in to NATO is not just for the sake of being another NATO country, they do it as an act of solidarity with the US. Yet another reason Russia has it's panties in a bunch over that too.

[Gutshot John]

We should support Georgia because this is naked aggression by Russia. This has nothing at all to do with South Ossetia as Russian troops have pushed far past this province.

Georgia is a sovereign state that Russia wishes to reincorporate. Chechnya is a bit different.

This is a direct challenge to NATO and accepted international law.

[Iraqgunz]

Here's my 700 Fils.

1. Georgia sent over 2500 troops to Iraq in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Word has it they are now being recalled. Their main compound is down the street from me and I did notice more activity than usual.

2. South Ossetia is a break away province that is part of Georgia. For Russia to step in and start dictating anything is extremely hypocritical considering they told everyone else to butt out of their actions in Chechnya.

3. To say that the natural gas and oil pipelines that are/ were being planned which by pass Russia and others isn't important would be naive.

4. Georgia is a democratic independent country. I agree that this is nothing more than a attempt to reassert domination of the area and destabilize the country. I believe it is also a warning to NATO to back off.

[Gutshot John]

It's unclear what support we could actually give other than moral support.

Militarily, NATO isn't going to do anything, and the US isn't either.

At best you're talking a 1973 airlift.

This is as much a warning to NATO as it is to other former Soviet republics that they're not as "sovereign" as they might otherwise believe. Russia isn't being hypocritical as far as it is concerned. There is no qualitative difference between Georgia/Chechnya as far as the Kremlin is concerned.

Resources/Wealth are always going to be an issue in conflict, but that is not really the point here. This is brinksmanship.

[Iraqgunz]

Gutshot,

We already provide limited support with advisors (who might have been on the ground when this started) as well as some military equipment.

There is no doubt that NATO (almost as worthless as the UN) will do nothind and neither will the U.S.

Maybe

Russia may think that they are in the right, but I remember Putin and others saying that Chechnya was an internal matter and the world needed to bug out. That same would apply here and someone should remind them of it.

[Gutshot John]

Russia may think that they are in the right, but I remember Putin and others saying that Chechnya was an internal matter and the world needed to bug out. That same would apply here and someone should remind them of it.

Oh I agree with you completely, but I'd argue that the Russians could give a rip about what others think about their hypocrisy. This is pure Machiavelli/Clauswitz brinksmanship, they don't really want war, they can't afford it. They're relying on meaningless calls for withdrawal as the most forceful response from the west after presenting them with a fait accompli.

Actually what the US could do, is take the opportunity to bomb the shit out of Iran's nuke facilities...especially the Russin-built ones. Russia's actions in Georgia emasculate any dissent in the Security Council.

Once again, Ivan is very clever, too clever by half IF the US actually has the will to act.

From a strategic perspective, Russia's actions reek of desperation...not strength.

[Safetyhit]

From a strategic perspective, Russia's actions reek of desperation...not strength.


Agreed with everything you said, but maybe this one point.

Reason is that after beefing up the military with oil profits and resuming once extinct long range bomber/recon missions, as well as saber rattling with the US again, maybe is the next small step. A live fire exercises of sorts, as well as reclaiming territory.

Still, with the US pushing for more missiles, even defensive ones, next to Russia again maybe we are pushing them too far. I agree it could also likely be desperation, but thought the point warranted consideration.

[Gutshot John]

Agreed with everything you said, but maybe this one point.

Reason is that after beefing up the military with oil profits and resuming once extinct long range bomber/recon missions, as well as saber rattling with the US again, maybe is the next small step. A live fire exercises of sorts, as well as reclaiming territory.

Still, with the US pushing for more missiles, even defensive ones, next to Russia again maybe we are pushing them too far. I agree it could also likely be desperation, but thought the point warranted consideration.

That's what I mean, it's either posturing or true strength.

If Russia felt truly strong it would not have reacted this way. It would not have needed to as Georgia would have minded its Ps and Qs.

If we are indeed pushing them "too far" isn't this by definition a desperate response? Though they may get Georgian territory, they've only proved the need for those missiles to former republics, especially ones that have joined NATO, of the need of US support.

This was too risky to be well thought out, a decision based on weakness, not strength.

The only question is if they get away with it.

[Safetyhit]

If we are indeed pushing them "too far" isn't this by definition a desperate response?


Yes, it could most likely be just that. Poor wording on my part, and a failure to fully explain my point.

But, what I meant to convey was that maybe this simply coincides with their new, more aggressive mindset rather than desperation. Basically, "we can, so we will". That would also send a clear message to others out there who they feel are looking to threaten them or even leave them.

Also, by no means do I think we are looking to dominate the region (as has been suggested) by placing missiles near their borders. Possibly pushing the envelope a bit does not equal attempted domination, just possibly an over-reaction of sorts.

[TackleBerry]

We should support Georgia because this is naked aggression by Russia. This has nothing at all to do with South Ossetia as Russian troops have pushed far past this province.

Georgia is a sovereign state that Russia wishes to reincorporate. Chechnya is a bit different.

This is a direct challenge to NATO and accepted international law.

You left out the part about Georgian troops invading South Ossetia and killing Russian civilians which is what started the latest conflict. Also the part about Georgia being a puppet state and this whole damn thing is just a diversion for an attack on Iran.

Google Rose Revolution and the CIA's role.

[Gutshot John]

You left out the part about Georgian troops invading South Ossetia and killing Russian civilians which is what started the latest conflict.

You mean the same South Ossestia which is a part of a sovereign nation OTHER than Russia? You can't "invade" your own territory. Nice try though. If South Ossetia is Georgian territory than the inhabitants are not "Russian civilians". Canada could give you a canadian passport, but that doesn't make your neighborhood Canada.

Sorry but I don't buy "hooker with a heart of gold" fairy tales. Nor do I go about "blaming the victim".

Diversion from attack on Iran? I could only be that lucky, but seriously the US isn't that smart.

Telling me to do research on Google is not only insufficient but adds nothing to add to this discussion. If you have evidence that the US orchestrated this, then please present it.

If you want me to rely on half-baked internet conspiracy theories, than you undermine your credibility.

[Safetyhit]

You left out the part about Georgian troops invading South Ossetia and killing Russian civilians which is what started the latest conflict.


Can you provide something to back this part up (other than a google search)? Maybe it did happen, but when? I honestly didn't hear of it.

[TackleBerry]

Can you provide something to back this part up (other than a google search)? Maybe it did happen, but when? I honestly didn't hear of it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2519908/Caucasus-in-crisis-Georgia-invades-rebel-region.html

[Gutshot John]

Can you provide something to back this part up (other than a google search)? Maybe it did happen, but when? I honestly didn't hear of it.

South Ossetia is Georgian territory, Russia has installed "peace keepers" (an occupying army) there to protect ethnic slavs from Georgian attempts to assert sovereignty.

They gave the Ossetians there Russian passports, but the legitimacy of such documents are nonexistant. This was one of the main causes of the conflict. Canada may give you a passport, and everyone in your neighborhood passports, but that doesn't mean your neighborhood is now Canada.

That Russia has now gone into other Georgian territory exposes the dishonesty of these excuses. This is a powerplay...pure and simple.

[Gutshot John]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2519908/Caucasus-in-crisis-Georgia-invades-rebel-region.html

Perhaps you should actually read the article because nothing in that article verifies your claim:


You left out the part about Georgian troops invading South Ossetia and killing Russian civilians which is what started the latest conflict.

It says nothing about killing Russian civilians. In fact it does say that Russia is supporting a rebel insurgency.

[Robb Jensen]

Keep it civil gentlemen.

[TackleBerry]

South Ossetia is Georgian territory, Russia has installed "peace keepers" (an occupying army) there to protect ethnic slavs from Georgian attempts to assert sovereignty.

They gave the Ossetians there Russian passports, but the legitimacy of such documents are nonexistant. This was one of the main causes of the conflict. Canada may give you a passport, and everyone in your neighborhood passports, but that doesn't mean your neighborhood is now Canada.

That Russia has now gone into other Georgian territory exposes the dishonesty of these excuses. This is a powerplay...pure and simple.

South Ossetia has been independent of Georgia since 1992.

[Gutshot John]

South Ossetia has been independent of Georgia since 1992.

Actually it is not independent. I recommend understanding the difference between independence and autonomy. The Kurds in Iraq should provide an adequate example.

1. It is not recognized by anyone other than Russia (for obvious reasons). South Ossetia has no diplomats abroad, nor representation anywhere. You're only a sovereign nation if other nations recognize you as such. South Ossetia is universally recognized as part of Georgia

2. If South Ossetia was indeed independent, than who are these "Russian civilians" that you said got killed?

3. If South Ossetia was independent than why did Russia hand out RUSSIAN passports to the people living there? Why not South Ossetian passports?

Sorry but that dog don't hunt.

[CarlosDJackal]

South Ossetia has been independent of Georgia since 1992.

Do you even bother to actually research and educate yourself on this before you post your (pro-Russian/anti-Georgian) one-liners? :rolleyes: