View Full Version : It's coming...VP9SK
Mauser KAR98K
12-26-15, 08:36
http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-P30SK-VP9SK-9mm-10-Round-Magazine-257p17376.htm
Oh, yes...
HK P30SK, VP9SK 9mm 10 Round Magazine
New German HK manufacture 10 Round 9mm P30SK & VP9SK magazine.
P30 SK
VP9 SK
SKU: HKP17376
Brand: Heckler & Koch
Origin: German
Caliber: 9mm
Magazine Capacity: 10
Not my cup of tea, but we can't say that HK isn't listening to its customers anymore.
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Nor mine, either...they can keep it..
Nor mine, either...they can keep it..
Same here.
I don't care for double stack compacts for CC and have vastly preferred my PPS for that purpose. I'm definitely going to look hard at the new PPS when it's released, but I am intrigued by this new VP9SK
Meh...
I'd much prefer one the size of the P2000.
The hipsters will cry with joy...
LOL
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
So will the compact VP9 get wrecked by even less sand?
Calm down Butthurt Brigade, that was a joke :fie:
mkmckinley
12-26-15, 10:57
Based on that mag size would we expect a two or three finger grip on the SK?
So will the compact VP9 get wrecked by even less sand?
Calm down Butthurt Brigade, that was a joke :fie:
That'd be my guess.. probably spit on it, and it'll lock right up :p
Based on that mag size would we expect a two or three finger grip on the SK?
Seeing how it fits a P-30 SK which has a two finger grip, I'd expect that the VP9sk will also have a two finger grip.... It's my understanding that HK considers the VP9 as a "compact" as it's sorta between a G17, and G19
mkmckinley
12-26-15, 11:21
Oh just saw the P30SK and was coming back here to edit my post. Thanks for the insight.
The hipsters will cry with joy...
LOL
The VP9 is a "hipster" gun? :D
"Hipster" appears to be the new M4C pejorative. That's hilarious.
I've noticed the whole fads and hipster thing goes both ways.
Not only do people jump on fads because it's the new cool thing but also...
Some like to think it's so uncool if they buy or enjoy the new cool thing.
Wonder who's been asking HK for this? While the VP9 is a great gun, have one myself, seems they could focus on what we the consumers want.
Wonder who's been asking HK for this? While the VP9 is a great gun, have one myself, seems they could focus on what we the consumers want.
Like...a more concealble version?
Yep..How about a 4" barrel and a shorter grip that still holds 15rds like a....I don't know, a Glock 19.
Yep..How about a 4" barrel and a shorter grip that still holds 15rds like a....I don't know, a Glock 19.
I don't put the Glock 19 solidly in the concealed carry category, so that version of a VP9 wouldn't appeal to me. Not enough difference in size between Glock 19 and the VP9 to be useful. IMHO.
I don't put the Glock 19 solidly in the concealed carry category, ...
I think that many people disagree with statement, as the G19(G23) is quite possibly the most commonly carried concealed handgun.
As far as a VP9SK goes, they will not sit on shelves. I look forward to the actual technical discussion of the VP9SK.
I think that many people disagree with statement,
I agree there are a lot of people who dearly love the G19. I'm not one of them and I was talking about me. No doubt it's a popular firearm, but there are a lot of people buying into other platforms and form factors. Hipsters. I guess. A VP9SK is a good marketing move for the US market. They'll sell 'em by the bucket, I suspect.
Mauser KAR98K
12-26-15, 18:14
Save that HK parts isn't trolling us.
I think there will be many who will love it and I'm sure rightly so. Although I don't carry it very often, I still personally rate my carry gun considerations against the 19/23. A few tweaks to the ergos would put it back at the top of my list as a daily carry. The size and capacity of the 19/23 appeals to a lot of people but it's not everyones cup of tea.
The VP9 is already so close to the G19, the difference wouldn't be noticed when carrying. It would be a waste of time to produce a pistol exactly the size of the gLoCk 19.
+ The vastly better trigger, sights etc...makes it worth a wee bit of an increase in size.
This will be a popular pistol for those who can't adapt to the "highly complex" DA/SA trigger of the P30SK or gasp, the LEM.
I'll certainly pick one up to add to the safe. I'm pretty happy with all of my pistols, however, and none of them are gLoCk's.
GASP. [emoji52]
I'm an Apple hipster too! Bernie must be in my future as well, I suppose.
The VP9 is already so close to the G19, the difference wouldn't be noticed when carrying. It would be a waste of time to produce a pistol exactly the size of the gLoCk 19.
Like most manufacturers, HK has not solved the riddle of the G19 grip length. I posted a couple of pics of the G19 grip versus the VP9 and PPQ last year in the VP9 thread. That couple of centimeters of extra length at the blackstrap makes a significant difference in the imprint when wearing the gun at the 3-4 o'clock. I'm not an AIWBC acolyte, but my understanding is the G19 grip length is why we the G19 is so popular with that crowd.
Like it or not, the G19 is simply brilliant in terms of its dimensions vs capacity. Smaller framed people find that it offers an unparalleled combination of capacity and concealment, and just 1-2 cm at the back strap make a huge difference.
If I'm to carry, without printing, I need something P30SK or Model 60 size. So I guess everyone is different. 3-4 is exactly where I carry also......
titsonritz
12-26-15, 22:45
Like most manufacturers, HK has not solved the riddle of the G19 grip length. I posted a couple of pics of the G19 grip versus the VP9 and PPQ last year in the VP9 thread. That couple of centimeters of extra length at the blackstrap makes a significant difference in the imprint when wearing the gun at the 3-4 o'clock. I'm not an AIWBC acolyte, but my understanding is the G19 grip length is why we the G19 is so popular with that crowd.
Like it or not, the G19 is simply brilliant in terms of its dimensions vs capacity. Smaller framed people find that it offers an unparalleled combination of capacity and concealment, and just 1-2 cm at the back strap make a huge difference.
I agree, I found the VP9 butt just a little too large to conceal as well as my Glock 19. The 19 really is the ultimate combination of size to capacity ratio.
I agree, I found the VP9 butt just a little too large to conceal as well as my Glock 19. The 19 really is the ultimate combination of size to capacity ratio.
This. I want to love the VP9, but I keep coming back to the G19.
Okie John
I will definitely purchase the VP9sk as soon as I can. TAKE MY MONEY!!! It works for me. Every time I read these threads I wonder why it is on the net everyone carries a "fighting" size handgun, and when you you look around day to day you see lots of jframes, and single stack subcompacts? For me, this is about the perfect balance of size and shoot ability.
So...is the protracted 15-round gunfight a real thing in the civilian world? Or is it primarily a CCW permittee's fantasy?
I agree the size/dimensions/grip of the Glock 19 are optimal for some people to carry, but if we're talking capacity (I'm not particularly a believer), it's pretty easy to just slip a couple of 7 round single-stack mags in your pocket. As awe-inspiring as the G19 is for many of you, it doesn't work as well for me for concealed carry as several other available options.
I may or may not pick up a VP9SK, depending on what it finally proves out to be. But the G19 simply wasn't workable for me, for a variety reasons (not solely related to its inconvenient size for my desires) nor was the G26 I tried for a couple of months. I'm pretty satisfied with my current single stack arrangement.
Good balance of size and capacity...I have to agree with that. And I have to agree that that would be important if one believes that capacity is important in civilian armed self-defense.
So...is the protracted 15-round gunfight a real thing in the civilian world? Or is it primarily a CCW permittee's fantasy?
I agree the size/dimensions/grip of the Glock 19 are optimal for some people to carry, but if we're talking capacity (I'm not particularly a believer), it's pretty easy to just slip a couple of 7 round single-stack mags in your pocket. As awe-inspiring as the G19 is, it doesn't work as well for me for concealed carry as several other available options.
I may or may not pick up a VP9SK, depending on what it finally proves out to be. But the G19 simply wasn't workable for me, nor was the G26 I tried for a couple of months. I'm pretty satisfied with my current arrangement (PPS)
Primarily cc fantasty
TheChunkNorris
12-27-15, 04:06
I find some of these threads amusing. For years people bitched and complained about HK not making another polymer striker fired pistol at an affordable price. Now that they did release one... same people bitch it wasn't in a G19 size, it's "cheap" in quality compared to a USP/P30/P2K and doesn't fire after being submersed in water. HK is getting their legs under them after the German gov't has continually tried to cut them at their knees. There's a big picture here guys and some only see a paint stroke. Don't think they're going to spend money trying to compete with one pistol.
Yep..How about a 4" barrel and a shorter grip that still holds 15rds like a....I don't know, a Glock 19.
That's the thing... NO ONE has. USPC and P2000 are comparable in size of a G19 but those are too expensive for some to carry.
Wonder who's been asking HK for this? While the VP9 is a great gun, have one myself, seems they could focus on what we the consumers want.
Don't know why this keeps being brought up but the P2000SK and P30SK all sold... tremendously well. At the end of the day, businesses sell things for money.
The gLoCksters can't stand that the VP is a better pistol in nearly every way and is priced to compete so now the mystique of the gLoCk 19 is its perfect size.
I call baloney that you can tell millimeters of difference in size in your pants.
I suppose I'm just not as well trained as some here or I'd be able to tell the difference. (Even though some are likely LE and carrying on a duty belt.)
I guess if the G19 is good enough for the Naval Special Warfare guys at the tip of the spear, it good enough for this gLOCkOHOLIC too. No, not perfection, but IMHO it is hard to beat * overall *. I have fallen off the Glock wagon many times. I have been on the HK, Sig, Walther and many other wagons but keep coming back to Glock. That being said, if some new hotness in the way of pistols comes out, I will probably give it a try because i have the disease. I would just say , get what works for you and get real good with it, or you are just kidding yourself.
The gLoCksters can't stand that the VP is a better pistol in nearly every way and is priced to compete so now the mystique of the gLoCk 19 is its perfect size.
I call baloney that you can tell millimeters of difference in size in your pants.
I suppose I'm just not as well trained as some here or I'd be able to tell the difference. (Even though some are likely LE and carrying on a duty belt.)
I have two VP9's (as well as 4 other HK's) and two Glock's, both pistols have their plus's and minus's The Glock is easy to detail strip, The VP9 is much more complex, and it isn't recommended by the factory to detail strip. Glock has Much, much, more aftermarket support as well as parts availability. With the VP9, parts availability is limited to either Hk parts net or HKUSA (HKUSA is always cheaper) As far as carrying it goes, A lot of how well either pistol carries depends on the person's build, holster as well as other factors, for some, the G19 is better, others VP9. There is no "one size fit's all" here. One has to go with what works for them. Myself, I carry a G19, I can shoot it faster, more accurately than the VP9. I'm guessing, But, I think the lower bore axis of the Glock really comes into play here, as I've shot both side by side, and I've noticed for me, it takes longer for the VP9's front sight to settle down vs the Glock's. That, and the timer doesn't lie. One other thing.. price.. you are aware that HK is supposedly planning on hiking the price of the VP9 once production resume's aren't you? (If true, that's a huge mistake) One thing where the VP9 shined was on price, very competitive to Glock..raise that price by say $50-100 and your average Joe looking to buy a CCW will give the VP9 a glance on his way down to the Glock/M&P end of the counter... The reality is, they're both good pistols, for most people there isn't really an advantage with either, as most people are unable to shoot the guns to their full accuracy potential...
I guess if the G19 is good enough for the Naval Special Warfare guys at the tip of the spear, it good enough for this gLOCkOHOLIC too.
The needs of NSW are completely different than me gearing up to go to the mall with the family.
One other thing.. price.. you are aware that HK is supposedly planning on hiking the price of the VP9 once production resume's aren't you? (If true, that's a huge mistake) One thing where the VP9 shined was on price, very competitive to Glock..raise that price by say $50-100 and your average Joe looking to buy a CCW will give the VP9 a glance on his way down to the Glock/M&P end of the counter... The reality is, they're both good pistols, for most people there isn't really an advantage with either, as most people are unable to shoot the guns to their full accuracy potential...
Got a reference for that assertion? Anyway, if one already owns one, why would they care how much it costs "once production resumes"? I already own one, don't need to buy another.
The needs of NSW are completely different than me gearing up to go to the mall with the family.
Got a reference for that assertion? Anyway, if one already owns one, why would they care how much it costs "once production resumes"? I already own one, don't need to buy another.
Nothing solid... just bits and pieces I read over at HKpro hence, the "supposedly" part, and the (if true that's a huge mistake) part... Take it for what's it's worth, or better yet go over to HK pro and ask around yourself.. If one already owns one, (VP9) one shouldn't care.. But, the person in the market for a handgun, probably will care, and, that's the difference. HK guns brought the price point up, and I addressed it.
TheChunkNorris
12-27-15, 12:39
I have two VP9's (as well as 4 other HK's) and two Glock's, both pistols have their plus's and minus's The Glock is easy to detail strip, The VP9 is much more complex, and it isn't recommended by the factory to detail strip. Glock has Much, much, more aftermarket support as well as parts availability. With the VP9, parts availability is limited to either Hk parts net or HKUSA (HKUSA is always cheaper) As far as carrying it goes, A lot of how well either pistol carries depends on the person's build, holster as well as other factors, for some, the G19 is better, others VP9. There is no "one size fit's all" here. One has to go with what works for them. Myself, I carry a G19, I can shoot it faster, more accurately than the VP9. I'm guessing, But, I think the lower bore axis of the Glock really comes into play here, as I've shot both side by side, and I've noticed for me, it takes longer for the VP9's front sight to settle down vs the Glock's. That, and the timer doesn't lie. One other thing.. price.. you are aware that HK is supposedly planning on hiking the price of the VP9 once production resume's aren't you? (If true, that's a huge mistake) One thing where the VP9 shined was on price, very competitive to Glock..raise that price by say $50-100 and your average Joe looking to buy a CCW will give the VP9 a glance on his way down to the Glock/M&P end of the counter... The reality is, they're both good pistols, for most people there isn't really an advantage with either, as most people are unable to shoot the guns to their full accuracy potential...
I've heard something about the price hike too but we'll see. I'd venture to say you have substantial time with the G19 and with that said it's a great pistol. My point is simple and Glock guys get visibly upset when I bring it up. You're getting HK's legendary build quality, accuracy and ergonomics for about the same money and the VP9 has a better trigger out of the box!
I guess if the G19 is good enough for the Naval Special Warfare guys at the tip of the spear, it good enough for this gLOCkOHOLIC too. No, not perfection, but IMHO it is hard to beat * overall *. I have fallen off the Glock wagon many times. I have been on the HK, Sig, Walther and many other wagons but keep coming back to Glock. That being said, if some new hotness in the way of pistols comes out, I will probably give it a try because i have the disease. I would just say , get what works for you and get real good with it, or you are just kidding yourself.
Don't forget their NSW's dedicated suppressed pistol is a HK45CT so I guess it's even. Let's not forget that ST6/CAG use HK416s and the Mark 23 is the most researched pistol ever. If you don't like the magazine release... that's understandable because a lot of people have trained on button type releases so that is a no go for some. The VP9 is the first striker fired HK has made since the P7 and guess what... on the first try they made a product that competes if not surpasses two popular Glocks with one pistol in the VP9! I too agree there's no perfect pistol for the masses but lets be real now. A Glock is a Honda Civic... cheap, reliable and you can customize them. Comparing the Glock to HK in the grand scheme of things is just humorous to me.
I've heard something about the price hike too but we'll see. I'd venture to say you have substantial time with the G19 and with that said it's a great pistol. My point is simple and Glock guys get visibly upset when I bring it up. You're getting HK's legendary build quality, accuracy and ergonomics for about the same money and the VP9 has a better trigger out of the box!
Don't forget their NSW's dedicated suppressed pistol is a HK45CT so I guess it's even. Let's not forget that ST6/CAG use HK416s and the Mark 23 is the most researched pistol ever. If you don't like the magazine release... that's understandable because a lot of people have trained on button type releases so that is a no go for some. The VP9 is the first striker fired HK has made since the P7 and guess what... on the first try they made a product that competes if not surpasses two popular Glocks with one pistol in the VP9! I too agree there's no perfect pistol for the masses but lets be real now. A Glock is a Honda Civic... cheap, reliable and you can customize them. Comparing the Glock to HK in the grand scheme of things is just humorous to me.
Naw, I don't get upset about the G19 vs VP9 thing. As I said I have 2 VP9's so I'm well versed with them. But for EDC, I prefer a G19, it works for me, I don't care if the NSW guys are using in or not. Having dug around in my DA/SA HK's I'll admit I'm not seeing anything in there that screams legendary quality.. you've got stamped, and MIM parts just like any other pistol, and let's not forget the trigger return spring IS the weak link in a DA/SA HK, figure about 5k including dry-fire drills before replacement. I had one break on my P-2000LEM, while at the range after it broke, the pistol was literally dead. It could be fired, but the trigger had to be manually returned. Luckily, I had spare TRS's at home as well as the pliers HK parts net sells.. 5 minutes after I got home, it was fixed.. Like I say, when people tell me about the quality of HK's I'm not so sure anymore.. Internally, I'm not sure they're any better than anybody else..About the only places I can think of where they might have higher quality, is the quality of the barrel, and barrel/slide lockup. Other than that, I'm not seeing it..
TheChunkNorris
12-27-15, 13:35
Naw, I don't get upset about the G19 vs VP9 thing. As I said I have 2 VP9's so I'm well versed with them. But for EDC, I prefer a G19, it works for me, I don't care if the NSW guys are using in or not. Having dug around in my DA/SA HK's I'll admit I'm not seeing anything in there that screams legendary quality.. you've got stamped, and MIM parts just like any other pistol, and let's not forget the trigger return spring IS the weak link in a DA/SA HK, figure about 5k including dry-fire drills before replacement. I had one break on my P-2000LEM, while at the range after it broke, the pistol was literally dead. It could be fired, but the trigger had to be manually returned. Luckily, I had spare TRS's at home as well as the pliers HK parts net sells.. 5 minutes after I got home, it was fixed.. Like I say, when people tell me about the quality of HK's I'm not so sure anymore.. Internally, I'm not sure they're any better than anybody else..About the only places I can think of where they might have higher quality, is the quality of the barrel, and barrel/slide lockup. Other than that, I'm not seeing it..
Having an AF Mark 23, KH USP, KI USP Match and several newer BA/AK/BD... I see no discernible difference. Granted the Mark 23 is on a whole another level though but I've yet to have issues with any of mine. Not to mention I shoot suppressed... a lot.
I can't say the drop off between years is as noticeable as when Sig started making pistols in the US. I have a West German P226 and West German P6 that have been shot a lot. They are built a million times better than my latest Enhanced Elite P226. I'm not going after you in regards to the Glock comparison, it was a general remark.
titsonritz
12-27-15, 14:30
The gLoCksters can't stand that the VP is a better pistol in nearly every way and is priced to compete so now the mystique of the gLoCk 19 is its perfect size.
I call baloney that you can tell millimeters of difference in size in your pants.
I suppose I'm just not as well trained as some here or I'd be able to tell the difference. (Even though some are likely LE and carrying on a duty belt.)
Call it what you want, I have both and the 19 hides better. No one said the VP9 wasn't a fine pistol, but IMO it is a better duty pistol on par with the G17 rather than concealable as the 19
Cincinnatus
12-27-15, 15:22
Speaking of weak TRS, look at the Beretta 92 series.
I am confident in HK far more than any other brand. Are the designs perfect? No design is. Do they have stellar QC and actually test fire each gun? Yes.
And there's nothing wrong with MIM when you have excellent QC; it's when you have sloppy MIM and sloppy QC that problems arise.
You can find something that is likely to break inside 10,000 rds on any firearm maker's guns. Do HKs more commonly make it to 10,000 without breakages? Yes. In fact, most other brands have several service intervals with RSAs and even mag springs needing replaced BEFORE 5,000.
No, HK is not perfect, but it is enough for me.
Yes, a couple mm difference is huge when talking print for aiwb carry.
As an mp shooter, I find it annoying no one mimics the g19 size. My next pistol will be a g19.
The reason ppl online carry g19 size guns and real life people carry j frames is because you don't meet ppl as dedicated as some of us. I carry and mpfs. Only my friends no. I tell people all the time I don't carry, because they don't need to know.
As for capacity and ccw fantasy, I can accurately empty a 15 Rd mag in 3-4 seconds. I carry a shield on occasion. But I prefer more. It's not about #of rounds on your person, it'd about having enough to stop the threat at hand.
Cincinnatus
12-27-15, 15:25
Call it what you want, I have both and the 19 hides better. No one said the VP9 wasn't a fine pistol, but IMO it is a better duty pistol on par with the G17 rather than concealable as the 19
You're right. I love the VP9, but the shape and angle of its butt make it harder to conceal. It has some sharp edges like a 1911. It could benefit from a bobtail shape like some mainspring housings on 1911s.
I can conceal it fine in most situations, but am more restricted in clothing choices than the G19.
Cincinnatus
12-27-15, 15:31
Yes, a couple mm difference is huge when talking print for aiwb carry.
As an mp shooter, I find it annoying no one mimics the g19 size. My next pistol will be a g19.
The reason ppl online carry g19 size guns and real life people carry j frames is because you don't meet ppl as dedicated as some of us. I carry and mpfs. Only my friends no. I tell people all the time I don't carry, because they don't need to know.
As for capacity and ccw fantasy, I can accurately empty a 15 Rd mag in 3-4 seconds. I carry a shield on occasion. But I prefer more. It's not about #of rounds on your person, it'd about having enough to stop the threat at hand.
I know what you mean and agree, but for the record, the G19 is not the only pistol of that size.
M&P 45 s have a mid-size that is almost identical to the G19. The P2000 is almost identical. The Beretta Storm, Cougar, et al. mimic the size. Even Springfield XDs have several models, though they're mostly junk. The CZ compacts are close, so is the Walther PPQ. Also of that size are SW 9VDE and 40VDE models.
But, yes, Glock is perhaps rightly the best executor of a pistol in that size--as long as you don't run into Phase 3 malfunctions.
Speaking of weak TRS, look at the Beretta 92 series.
I am confident in HK far more than any other brand. Are the designs perfect? No design is. Do they have stellar QC and actually test fire each gun? Yes.
And there's nothing wrong with MIM when you have excellent QC; it's when you have sloppy MIM and sloppy QC that problems arise.
You can find something that is likely to break inside 10,000 rds on any firearm maker's guns. Do HKs more commonly make it to 10,000 without breakages? Yes. In fact, most other brands have several service intervals with RSAs and even mag springs needing replaced BEFORE 5,000.
No, HK is not perfect, but it is enough for me.
Beretta has upgraded their TRS's and they're supposed to be on par with HK as far as replacement. I have a Inox Vertec who's TRS is probably approaching 5k with live and largely dry fire practice. I will say this, replacing the TRS on a Beretta 92 is much easier than a HK, the only special tool needed can be made from a paper clip. And that's for pulling the upper leg of the spring back to install the trigger bar. One could also spend $4 or so plus shipping and get a chrome-silicon TRS from Wilson Combat, and probably not have to worry about it again for a long time. I bought 2 of 'em and when the TRS in the Vertec gives up the ghost, it'll get replaced with a WC unit.. I believe WC makes a CS replacement spring for every spring in the Beretta 92. HK's MIM parts are, as far as I know made in-house, That probably explains why they rarely have trouble with them. One other thing I seem to remember about Beretta 92's..And, someone correct me if I'm wrong, But I seem to remember that the 92 series is one of the few pistols made that does NOT have any MIM parts in it.. Sure there's some plastic coated steel parts (trigger for example) but, unless things have changed, I don't think they have any MIM..
TheChunkNorris
12-28-15, 05:15
Beretta has upgraded their TRS's and they're supposed to be on par with HK as far as replacement. I have a Inox Vertec who's TRS is probably approaching 5k with live and largely dry fire practice. I will say this, replacing the TRS on a Beretta 92 is much easier than a HK, the only special tool needed can be made from a paper clip. And that's for pulling the upper leg of the spring back to install the trigger bar. One could also spend $4 or so plus shipping and get a chrome-silicon TRS from Wilson Combat, and probably not have to worry about it again for a long time. I bought 2 of 'em and when the TRS in the Vertec gives up the ghost, it'll get replaced with a WC unit.. I believe WC makes a CS replacement spring for every spring in the Beretta 92. HK's MIM parts are, as far as I know made in-house, That probably explains why they rarely have trouble with them. One other thing I seem to remember about Beretta 92's..And, someone correct me if I'm wrong, But I seem to remember that the 92 series is one of the few pistols made that does NOT have any MIM parts in it.. Sure there's some plastic coated steel parts (trigger for example) but, unless things have changed, I don't think they have any MIM..
I guess I see the point but if you notice all H&K threads here end the same way... you have a bunch of people from one side of the gun spectrum just really talking crap. You on the other hand have H&Ks so I'm not throwing you in that group but it's hilarious to me. I looked up your TRS issue and to be honest... not much was said and seems more like an issue that you had vs it being an "issue" per say.
I guess I see the point but if you notice all H&K threads here end the same way... you have a bunch of people from one side of the gun spectrum just really talking crap. You on the other hand have H&Ks so I'm not throwing you in that group but it's hilarious to me. I looked up your TRS issue and to be honest... not much was said and seems more like an issue that you had vs it being an "issue" per say.
It's not really an "issue" but it is a bit of maintenance that usually gets overlooked a lot. I'm not entirely sure at what interval HK recommends replacing the TRS, 10k I think, but Todd Green recommended in his "tests" 7k. On my p-2000, it was the first time a TRS had actually broke on me. I'd guess it was between 6-9k with live and dry fire before it broke. The point is, they can and will break, and after say, 7K with out replacement, even if it isn't broke, your chances of it breaking only go up. Not a problem with a range gun, but it could be a problem with a EDC gun. When mine broke it gave no warning at all.. I'd guess most people don't want to fool with it because without the pliers HK parts net sells, they are a royal pain in the ass to change..(Ask me how I know) When Todd Green was doing his famous "tests" He had a couple break on him, One, I remember only went about 2k before breaking. Bad spring I guess, because the replacement gave him no issue. Beretta's were famous for breaking TRS's. However it seems they have redesigned the spring, and they are much more durable. And, really they are much easier to change. Where HK comes out a little ahead of everybody else is, they've been able to maintain a certain quality standard when others(like Glock S&W for example) were having problems. This is what really sets them apart. It's not that they are so much better, but rather they're much more consistent..
TheChunkNorris
12-28-15, 09:07
It's not really an "issue" but it is a bit of maintenance that usually gets overlooked a lot. I'm not entirely sure at what interval HK recommends replacing the TRS, 10k I think, but Todd Green recommended in his "tests" 7k. On my p-2000, it was the first time a TRS had actually broke on me. I'd guess it was between 6-9k with live and dry fire before it broke. The point is, they can and will break, and after say, 7-9K with out replacement, even if it isn't broke, your chances of it breaking only go up. Not a problem with a range gun, but it could be a problem with a EDC gun. When mine broke it gave no warning at all.. I'd guess most people don't want to fool with it because without the pliers HK parts net sells, they are a royal pain in the ass to change..(Ask me how I know) When Todd Green was doing his famous "tests" He had a couple break on him, One, I remember only went about 2k before breaking. Bad spring I guess, because the replacement gave him no issue. Beretta's were famous for breaking TRS's. However it seems they have redesigned the spring, and they are much more durable. And, really they are much easier to change. Where HK comes out a little ahead of everybody else is, that they've been able to maintain a certain quality standard when others(like Glock S&W for example) were having problems. This is what really sets them apart. It's not that they are so much better, but rather they're much more consistent..
It's funny you mention that. I did my first Match swap without the TRS tool and it was a pita. There hasn't been a trend and trends, especially bad ones are the one ones to avoid. When you bring up the early Gen4 issues, special variants were made for work in water, and fit/finish is meh... I get called an a$$hole. Glocks are a great weapon system but at what point does the blinders really block out what it truly is? With that said the VP9 is a continuation of what HK started and they'll only get "better" or add more options.
Yankee Marshal guy is a perfect example. When discussing the unboxing of the VP9 his gripes was the build quality wasn't up to HK spec but failed to mention it's build quality exceeds both Glock and Walther. "... Has a poorly designed feel" is what he said. If it was built to the standard to as a USP/P30, it wouldn't be a $600.00 pistol! Admittedly the Walther has a better trigger and I have no issues saying that but the VP9 is a better combination of both worlds and there's no argument.
I will say the timing of the VP9SK is weird. The P30SK has only been out for less 8 months now and has been added to a line that has two hammered sub-compact pistols. The P2000SK's MSRP was lowered at the beginning of the year so who knows were that will lead.
This is drifting into a Glock 19 thread.
They always do......
When I did an LEM conversion, changing out the TRS was nearly the trickiest item I've ever had to do to a pistol.
One item of note, two days ago I noticed my HK45 is showing signs of the false reset. It appears to only do it under recoil and is inconsistent.
The first issue I've had with any of my numerous HK firearms and it still shoots just fine.
They always do......
When I did an LEM conversion, changing out the TRS was nearly the trickiest item I've ever had to do to a pistol.
One item of note, two days ago I noticed my HK45 is showing signs of the false reset. It appears to only do it under recoil and is inconsistent.
The first issue I've had with any of my numerous HK firearms and it still shoots just fine.
HKGuns
Buy the pliers HK parts net sells.. I know, you'll only use them once in a blue moon, but they are worth it. The first time I swapped a TRS was in my P-2000LEM going from a heavy LEM to light, That took me over two hours, and I lost the spring...twice. The second time was with a P-30 LEM I briefly had, same thing,(heavy to light LEM) but this time I did it in a half hour, and only lost the spring once. The third time was the P-2000 again, the spring had broke, but, this time I had the pliers and spare springs.. It took all of 5 minutes to install with the pliers, did it on the first attempt, and nothing was lost in the process.. They're worth every penny.
I remember reading on HKpro a while back, people were complaining of false resets with HK45's. I think it was traced down to a bad batch of trigger bars that slipped by QC, I'd call HK, They'll probably send you a shipping label and they'll take a look at it..
TheChunkNorris
12-28-15, 11:54
HKGuns
Buy the pliers HK parts net sells.. I know, you'll only use them once in a blue moon, but they are worth it. The first time I swapped a TRS was in my P-2000LEM going from a heavy LEM to light, That took me over two hours, and I lost the spring...twice. The second time was with a P-30 LEM I briefly had, same thing,(heavy to light LEM) but this time I did it in a half hour, and only lost the spring once. The third time was the P-2000 again, the spring had broke, but, this time I had the pliers and spare springs.. It took all of 5 minutes to install with the pliers, did it on the first attempt, and nothing was lost in the process.. They're worth every penny.
I remember reading on HKpro a while back, people were complaining of false resets with HK45's. I think it was traced down to a bad batch of trigger bars that slipped by QC, I'd call HK, They'll probably send you a shipping label and they'll take a look at it..
I bought the tool and it's literally I 5min job! You might want to look at the Super Match VP9 kit, it's a couple springs and I love it.
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jdavis6576
12-28-15, 12:25
You're right. I love the VP9, but the shape and angle of its butt make it harder to conceal. It has some sharp edges like a 1911. It could benefit from a bobtail shape like some mainspring housings on 1911s.
I can conceal it fine in most situations, but am more restricted in clothing choices than the G19.
I agree, the shape of the back strap is too squared which is why I rounded mine. Removing and rounding it made it less noticeable under a shirt. Replacements are only $10 if you mess up...
http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww65/jdavis6576/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsbt50oegp.jpg
I'll look at that tool before I spend two plus hours on the next TRS. I sent HKCS a note this morning as I recalled the thread over on HKPRO and the trigger bars. I am hoping they'll send me a replacement trigger bar instead of asking me to ship the pistol to them for repair.
At any rate, I'm sure the VP9SK will be an excellent pistol.
I don't put the Glock 19 solidly in the concealed carry category, so that version of a VP9 wouldn't appeal to me. Not enough difference in size between Glock 19 and the VP9 to be useful. IMHO.
What?
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TheChunkNorris
12-29-15, 01:46
What?
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Think he was very specific in his post. He's saying that he personally doesn't want to see a VP9 in G19 dimensions because the difference to him wouldn't sway him to that gun. It will not suit his CC needs.
I agree, the shape of the back strap is too squared which is why I rounded mine. Removing and rounding it made it less noticeable under a shirt. Replacements are only $10 if you mess up...
Very nice work.
So...is the protracted 15-round gunfight a real thing in the civilian world? Or is it primarily a CCW permittee's fantasy?
I agree the size/dimensions/grip of the Glock 19 are optimal for some people to carry, but if we're talking capacity (I'm not particularly a believer), it's pretty easy to just slip a couple of 7 round single-stack mags in your pocket. As awe-inspiring as the G19 is for many of you, it doesn't work as well for me for concealed carry as several other available options.
I may or may not pick up a VP9SK, depending on what it finally proves out to be. But the G19 simply wasn't workable for me, for a variety reasons (not solely related to its inconvenient size for my desires) nor was the G26 I tried for a couple of months. I'm pretty satisfied with my current single stack arrangement.
Good balance of size and capacity...I have to agree with that. And I have to agree that that would be important if one believes that capacity is important in civilian armed self-defense.
Ever tried to reload after having a huge adrenaline dump?
How well do you think you'd do with rounds incoming?
Oh?
That said, I still love the 1911 platform. So I'm not kicking you. Just asking you to slowly think it through. At the end of the day all firearms (like all machines) are compromises.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Ever tried to reload after having a huge adrenaline dump?
How well do you think you'd do with rounds incoming?
Oh?
That said, I still love the 1911 platform. So I'm not kicking you. Just asking you to slowly think it through. At the end of the day all firearms (like all machines) are compromises.
Do you often find yourself having to reload your gun with people shooting at you?
Why do you think I haven't thought it through? Because when I did, I didn't come to the same conclusions as you?
I think Gaston hit the size efficiency with the G19, had he spent 1 second looking at ergonomics instead of economics he could possibly have developed a holy grain gun for CCW. The 19 is far more concealable than the VP9 especially for AIWB carry. My VP9 can not be concealed AIWB no matter what holster/belt combo I try. My body shape and size at this time just makes it impossible to do. Doesnt mean that is true for everyone or even me once I loose some weight and regain some shape other than pear. However, the VP9 is an awesome shooter, has been 100% reliable in over 2k down range of any ammo I throw at it. It is also the gun I shoot the best so it will retain its role as primary defensive gun.
As for the VP9SK it will be interesting to see what it actually is. My preference would have been for a VP9C which has an SK grip but retains the VP9 slide. Easier to conceal, but still has the sight radius of a full size gun. The SK may make the VP9 series work for AIWB carry, which would be a plus.
Capacity wise, I have no issues with the G43 I use on occasions where the VP9 is not feasible. Gym shorts, sweat pants and such are the realm of the 43 for sure. However, I have yet to talk to anyone involved in a 2 way range situation that has complained that they had ammo left. We have heard stories of folks shooting their guns dry and having serous issues as a result. While I agree with the stats that most CCW shootings end in a very low round count, there are some that dont. We dont carry a gun because we are planning for the best and hoping the worst doesnt happen. We do so for the exact opposite reasons.
My VP9 can not be concealed AIWB no matter what holster/belt combo I try. My body shape and size at this time just makes it impossible to do. Doesnt mean that is true for everyone or even me once I loose some weight and regain some shape other than pear.
Right? As hard as it apparently is to believe, some people with some body shapes and sizes don't find any 15 round double-stack firearm to meet their needs and desires for a concealed carry gun. Even that holy grail of firearms the Glock 19.
WickedWillis
12-29-15, 14:33
Right? As hard as it apparently is to believe, some people with some body shapes and sizes don't find any 15 round double-stack firearm to meet their needs and desires for a concealed carry gun. Even that holy grail of firearms the Glock 19.
I'm a big dude and I have to dress accordingly to conceal my G19 at 3-4. I don't mess with appendix carry.
As for the VP9SK it will be interesting to see what it actually is. My preference would have been for a VP9C which has an SK grip but retains the VP9 slide. Easier to conceal, but still has the sight radius of a full size gun. The SK may make the VP9 series work for AIWB carry, which would be a plus.
I agree. I will definitely be picking up a VP9SK to go alongside my VP9, but after carrying the VP9 long enough I've come to the conclusion that the biggest factor for CCW is easily the grip length. A VP9SK/P30SK sized grip (with magazine extension options) and a VP9 length slide would be ideal for me. The ability to run a Surefire XC1 or Inforce light, the longer sight radius, and holster compatibility would make it a winner I think. Maybe HK will release a VP9c eventually, who knows..
I'm a big dude and I have to dress accordingly to conceal my G19 at 3-4. I don't mess with appendix carry.
I'm smaller than you and I find that the Glock 19, VP9, PPQ, are uncomfortable at 4:00 carry, especially when sitting, especially when sitting in a car.
Do you often find yourself having to reload your gun with people shooting at you?
Why do you think I haven't thought it through? Because when I did, I didn't come to the same conclusions as you?
Well a pistol is a fighting tool to me not some talisman or "collectible". Do as you please, sir. Pay my comment no more attention, please.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
WickedWillis
12-29-15, 17:34
Well a pistol is a fighting tool to me not some talisman or "collectible". Do as you please, sir. Pay my comment no more attention, please.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
You still didn't answer the question. Do you often find yourself having to reload your gun with people shooting at you?
You still didn't answer the question. Do you often find yourself having to reload your gun with people shooting at you?
Sure he did! [emoji3] just need to read tween the lines!
I was unclear?
Initially you were not clear.
In reality I really don't care what other people ccw. You are right that there is not just one perfect gun that will work for everyone. There is always a balance of comfort, your size, extra ammo, size of the weapon and your proficiency with it. Use what works for you.
I have had to reload while in a gunfight and I really didnt think about it as my training kicked in and I moved a bit and got the reload finished as things came to an end. You will not perform any better than you train.
For me, 90% of time I ccw/off duty a G19, with a G17 mag as a spare. I always wear a real gun belt (Bullhide Belts). I like to carry the G19 OWB in a Kydex holster and the extra mag the same way. 10% of the time I carry a Walther PPS the same way with two spare 8'round mags. Pocket carry for my spare mags is just not an option for me as when the shtf, I want things to be accessible as possible.
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Initially you were not clear.
I have had to reload while in a gunfight and I really didnt think about it as my training kicked in and I moved a bit and got the reload finished as things came to an end. You will not perform any better than you train.
For me, 90% of time I ccw/off duty a G19, with a G17 mag as a spare....
Yes. I apparently neglected to mention that I'm not a police officer.
You still didn't answer the question. Do you often find yourself having to reload your gun with people shooting at you?
We quite obviously have two drastically different reasons for owning pistols. I augment my martial arts background by training intensely with them as fighting tools. They aren't toys. They aren't extensions of my ego. I cannot hazard to guess what you use yours for.
So by all means feel free to continue on whatever path you've defined/developed and I'll absolutely continue on mine.
With your "logic" why own a firearm? How many have actually had to fire the gun in anger??? Some act as if HK = Hipster Krewe...
Just be careful as the scenario you envision may be quite different and if it's less challenging than you drilled and trained for then GREAT! If that's not the case you're working uphill. You "bleed" training such that you just sweat for real - or sweat a lot in training such that you minimize bleeding during your "competition". This is NOTHING new.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
TheChunkNorris
12-30-15, 04:10
Speaking of which... why do some call Hk people "Hipsters"? I gun toting hipster would be carrying a flint lock pistol.
My carry pistol is a P7M8 with one extra mag, I did have a P2SK for a while but had to use a flat magazine because I'd get pinched otherwise(Yes I'm a chubby lad). With that said H&K seems to be moving quickly with the VP9 variants. People that know HK also know most of what they do is deliberate and usually done many years before there's even a rumor of a new pistol.
For the few claiming there isn't that much difference in the sizes of the VP9 and G19. I like my VP9, but it's too big for me to carry, heavy too.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/30/157d35b4bd3cb8281a6d2a1e533c031e.jpg
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Speaking of which... why do some call Hk people "Hipsters"? I gun toting hipster would be carrying a flint lock pistol.
My carry pistol is a P7M8 with one extra mag, I did have a P2SK for a while but had to use a flat magazine because I'd get pinched otherwise(Yes I'm a chubby lad). With that said H&K seems to be moving quickly with the VP9 variants. People that know HK also know most of what they do is deliberate and usually done many years before there's even a rumor of a new pistol.
It's just something that popped into my head. I'm a huge HK Fan and I've gone/come full circle more or less trying everything and then realized a few things:
1911s are immensely shootable and accurate; thin and heavy
They also are quite forgiving of trigger control issues. When I tried Glocks I hated them. The M&P a LITTLE Less so.
LEM HKs are great but a little slow for me (then realized that 0.17 splits don't truly matter; getting solid hits at 0.25 sec splits do - for me).
After 3500 rounds of drills with a Glock 19 I freaking love it.
The VP9 was instant gratification.
If you get the sneaky suspicion I don't baby these tools you're correct. Absolutely so. It's all about finding what gives me the keenest advantage - and after a while you realize it doesn't matter much at all: GLOCK, M&P, VP9, P30, P226... I can run them all. And when I go to the range I like to try other people's pistols and let them run mine for a 100 rounds or so.
I get the impression that a lot of people here do not shoot a lot, much less train and surely do not compete. Lots of collectors. There used to be lots of threads about filling in rollmarks and such. While in and of itself rollmark filling isn't a deal breaker but when one reads "HK can do no wrong" like GlockTalk guys, combined with photos of two of a kind and relatively few threads on training, drills, classes, etc., it reminds me of my cousin. Who is a hipster. He has the right this and right that for the wrong reasons; head the clouds, Pollyanna-ish.
Some here (and EVERYWHERE) will be like this but there is a little of that in a lot of people here. Maybe the Glock guys have much less because the guns are boringly capable and nothing to really look at. I dunno.
I found it rather comical as I could see my cousin collecting P7s if the hipster crowd at the local market or micro-brewery (and I frequent them, too, I just don't wear the low hip tight jeans and shirts, the "proper watch" and I don't/won't drive a Prius) decided it was the "in thing."
At least he asked me to take him to a gun store and is considering purchasing something so maybe there's hope for him (and all like him) after all.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
TheChunkNorris
12-30-15, 09:05
It's just something that popped into my head. I'm a huge HK Fan and I've gone/come full circle more or less trying everything and then realized a few things:
1911s are immensely shootable and accurate; thin and heavy
They also are quite forgiving of trigger control issues. When I tried Glocks I hated them. The M&P a LITTLE Less so.
LEM HKs are great but a little slow for me (then realized that 0.17 splits don't truly matter; getting solid hits at 0.25 sec splits do - for me).
After 3500 rounds of drills with a Glock 19 I freaking love it.
The VP9 was instant gratification.
If you get the sneaky suspicion I don't baby these tools you're correct. Absolutely so. It's all about finding what gives me the keenest advantage - and after a while you realize it doesn't matter much at all: GLOCK, M&P, VP9, P30, P226... I can run them all. And when I go to the range I like to try other people's pistols and let them run mine for a 100 rounds or so.
I get the impression that a lot of people here do not shoot a lot, much less train and surely do not compete. Lots of collectors. There used to be lots of threads about filling in rollmarks and such. While in and of itself rollmark filling isn't a deal breaker but when one reads "HK can do no wrong" like GlockTalk guys, combined with photos of two of a kind and relatively few threads on training, drills, classes, etc., it reminds me of my cousin. Who is a hipster. He has the right this and right that for the wrong reasons; head the clouds, Pollyanna-ish.
Some here (and EVERYWHERE) will be like this but there is a little of that in a lot of people here. Maybe the Glock guys have much less because the guns are boringly capable and nothing to really look at. I dunno.
I found it rather comical as I could see my cousin collecting P7s if the hipster crowd at the local market or micro-brewery (and I frequent them, too, I just don't wear the low hip tight jeans and shirts, the "proper watch" and I don't/won't drive a Prius) decided it was the "in thing."
At least he asked me to take him to a gun store and is considering purchasing something so maybe there's hope for him (and all like him) after all.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Sadly enough the only training I've ever had was on a M9 and a G17. The reason why I asked is because you're not the only one to make that comment and I've seen it here and AR15com too. I'm a collector but have Sig, CZ, Colt, and Ruger pistols. Rifles go from cheap a Keltec SU-22 to a Ruger AC556k so it's not like HK is the only thing I know. The P7 series is awesome and the only pistol I trust with a round chambered while pointed at my junk.
H&K did what A LOT of companies couldn't do in one shot so that's why I think it's important to keep that in mind. It amazes me that people who were critical to a whole Glock generation(Gen4) are the same people that try to come at people who bought a better made pistol. SHOT is around the corner so we'll if HK brings any new goodies other than the VP9SK. Pocket pistols are all the rage at the moment so I'm sure we'll see a lot of those this year.
I was one of the "beta testers" for the Gen4 17. I know exactly where you're coming from, brother. I was PISSED so I just used my P30. I quietly followed APEX Tactical on M4C and eventually purchased one of his APEX Extractor and extractor rod kits and "Voila!" But I could not shoot them well enough at distance so I took my last two classes with the VP9.
Since that time I've gotten spookily proficient with the Gen4 19 and the overall size/capacity is perfect.
That said, I REALLY like the VP9. And I AIWB Carry it with a JM Custom Kydex holster.
I was not aware of the "hipster" nickname from, of all places, ARFCOM. Muppets...
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
The P7 series is awesome and the only pistol I trust with a round chambered while pointed at my junk.
Heh, the P7 is about the only one I would trust in that scenario as well! :) I generally don't carry my P7's because of their weight and relative value, so pistols always stay pointed away from my junk, regardless of what is currently in vogue.
Heh, the P7 is about the only one I would trust in that scenario as well! :) I generally don't carry my P7's because of their weight and relative value, so pistols always stay pointed away from my junk, regardless of what is currently in vogue.
Yeah, I TOTALLY get the cult of the P7. Been there. LOL!
Finding spares are starting to become an issue unless you've got stores. I wish it could have remained in production but cost of mfg kept it price uncompetitive... Still one of my all time favorites though too obscure for me to carry. If it's damaged how quickly can I obtain, say, a new extractor or one of the cool linkages inside the stock? If it were still being produced I might still be wearing one. Awesome pistol.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
TheChunkNorris
12-31-15, 01:51
Yeah, I TOTALLY get the cult of the P7. Been there. LOL!
Finding spares are starting to become an issue unless you've got stores. I wish it could have remained in production but cost of mfg kept it price uncompetitive... Still one of my all time favorites though too obscure for me to carry. If it's damaged how quickly can I obtain, say, a new extractor or one of the cool linkages inside the stock? If it were still being produced I might still be wearing one. Awesome pistol.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
I have extra pistons, recoil springs and only one extractor. Try to buy when they come up from time to time.
Heh, the P7 is about the only one I would trust in that scenario as well! :) I generally don't carry my P7's because of their weight and relative value, so pistols always stay pointed away from my junk, regardless of what is currently in vogue.
Well I have 3 P7s. Two police trade ins Grade A and Grade B, the other is a P7M8. The Grade B is the carry pistol but I have a trunk rifle(2 extra mags) and another pistol(2 extra mags) in a compartment in my car.
I had two P7M8 pistols and sold them both. I injured my left hand and I could not consistently fully depress the decocker from the holster during a quick draw. Looking back I could have obtained grip panels with a mild palm swells (like the P7) and all would have been fine. Unfortunately, I was seeking employment elsewhere than where I was and took a deep salary cut to make it happened so I let them go. Let me check my box of trinkets and treasures. I know I had some parts (and sold some parts with one) and I may (may is the operative word) have something sitting around. I'll give you what I have if anything is in there, brother.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
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