Seeking advice on replacing my EOTech on my Patrol Rifle

[ECRRRainman]

Hey Everyone,

After reading about the EOTech refund "thing" I felt compelled to remove my EOTech from my patrol rifle and I am now seeking a replacement that falls within the requirements/allowances of my Department General Orders. basically the requirements are a limited number of brands and it must be 1 or 1.5x. The brands on the department's list I feel are worthy "fighting" optics are limited to Trijicon and Aimpoint.

This optic will be used on my patrol rifle within a dense urban environment mostly at night. More specifically I have only deployed the rifle during search warrants as our vehicles make it useless to carry daily (rack is in the rear/trunk area) and deploy on hot calls.

I would like for a red dot that has a similar "open view" the EOTech has which seem to be a selling point of both the Trijicon SRS and MRO. I am just in debate if an Aimpoint PRO or H/T-1/2, which have a much longer track record of being great red dots, would bother me with their more "tube" design, I apologize I dont know how exactly to describe it. From my limited handling of an Aimpoint PRO and a T-1 mounted on co-workers rifles, I felt that the PRO had some minimal obstructed view due to the battery compartment and the windage/elevation turrets. With the T-1 I felt like the viewing area of the dot made it some times take longer to locate and put on target. Granted, none of this was done while firing the weapon so its possible this would all be moot points once I started training with it.

I guess my overall questions would be: Would an optic like the Trijicon SRS or MRO be something to consider given their mixed reviews involving glare and artifacts on the lens, along with their wider viewing area compared to Aimpoints PRO or T/H series, which are known bomb proof optics with a more congested viewing area.

I know very little about this topic and I graciously await for those of you who shoot a hell of a lot more than me to put me in my place on this.

Thanks!

[Pappabear]

I'm such an aimpoint fan that's where I will speak. The T/H cost almost double the money of a Pro. They are not double the optic. If money is not an issue, buy the T/H. Otherwise the Pro is great and the view is not a problem.

The SRS and MRO might be fine, but why risk it when you already know the gold standard is solid. Best of luck

[Wake27]

I don't have any experience with either of the Trijicon offerings, but here is my take. The EOTech issue only affects the optics at fairly extreme temperatures, and even then, it may not be a huge deviation in zero. If that issue is enough to make you want to replace it, do you think you'll have more confidence in any other optic that may have questionable performance? I am a huge EOTech fanboy, but my HD gun has an Aimpoint micro. And I'm strongly considering putting one on my backup as well. For a duty/primary defense weapon, I personally only have full confidence in the Aimpoint. Which Aimpoint is a little more personal preference. My issue weapon has an M68, similar to the PRO. I'm really not a fan of it for a few reasons. It has a large profile that causes a more obstructed view, I notice the tube effect sometimes which can be distracting (rare, but it has happened), and finally, my biggest reason - if the technology is there to have the same performance in a smaller, lighter package, I'm going to spend my money on that. I have heard that some people prefer the larger FOV of the PRO, but it doesn't bother me one bit. This is all mostly opinion, but I think it's pretty widely held. The only downsides to the T/H are that they're stupid expensive, you have to pay even more for a good mount, and the first gens (T/H-1) are worthless behind a magnifier.


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[Psybain]

I don't have any experience with either of the Trijicon offerings, but here is my take. The EOTech issue only affects the optics at fairly extreme temperatures, and even then, it may not be a huge deviation in zero. If that issue is enough to make you want to replace it, do you think you'll have more confidence in any other optic that may have questionable performance? I am a huge EOTech fanboy, but my HD gun has an Aimpoint micro. And I'm strongly considering putting one on my backup as well. For a duty/primary defense weapon, I personally only have full confidence in the Aimpoint. Which Aimpoint is a little more personal preference. My issue weapon has an M68, similar to the PRO. I'm really not a fan of it for a few reasons. It has a large profile that causes a more obstructed view, I notice the tube effect sometimes which can be distracting (rare, but it has happened), and finally, my biggest reason - if the technology is there to have the same performance in a smaller, lighter package, I'm going to spend my money on that. I have heard that some people prefer the larger FOV of the PRO, but it doesn't bother me one bit. This is all mostly opinion, but I think it's pretty widely held. The only downsides to the T/H are that they're stupid expensive, you have to pay even more for a good mount, and the first gens (T/H-1) are worthless behind a magnifier.


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My understanding, according to what I read about the lawsuit on SSD, is that eotecgs can by off by as much as 20 MOA in sub-zero temps. Sonce the OP is in chicago according to his profile, I'd have to imagine he has a legitinate concern with wondering if his eotech will work correctly in the winter.

I'd recommend finding a couple local gunshops or distributers for aimpoint and trijicon and see if you can turn some one and look through them to see which one works best for you. From the few reviews I've seen of the MRO though, they've all said its superior to the SRS at half the cost.

[Wake27]

My understanding, according to what I read about the lawsuit on SSD, is that eotecgs can by off by as much as 20 MOA in sub-zero temps. Sonce the OP is in chicago according to his profile, I'd have to imagine he has a legitinate concern with wondering if his eotech will work correctly in the winter.

I don't remember it being 20. Something like up to 5 MOA is what I remember. Either way though, I wasn't arguing his reasoning for ditching it. That should've been obvious from the rest of my post.


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[Psybain]

According to the lawsuit, it's only 4-6 MOA shift in extreme heat (120°+), but up to 20 MOA shift in sub-zero tem0s. Even worse, eotech knew about it in 07 and sat on it for a year before mentioning it.

From the SSD article, quoting the lawsuit:


By early 2007, Defendants knew of a separate performance failure in cold temperature. Beginning around 32 degrees Fahrenheit, the sights’ aiming dot became significantly distorted, affecting the accuracy of the sight and worsening as the temperature approached -40 degrees. At sub-zero temperatures, the distortion of the aiming dot affected the accuracy of the sights by more than 20 inches for every 100 yards. EOTech delayed disclosing the defect for more than a year, and until it had a fix in place. Even then, EOTech presented its fix to DoD as an upgrade to a quality product that already conformed to specifications.

http://soldiersystems.net/2015/11/25/the-details-united-states-of-america-v-l-3-communications-eotech-inc-l-3-communications-corporation-and-paul-mangano/

I got what you were saying in your poat, i was just agreeing with the OP that he had a very legitimate concern due to eotech's exceptionally poor cold weather preformance as revealed in the above lawsuit.

[Just Prince]

I just switch from a 512 to Pro on my duty rifle. It's my work rifle and I can not chance it. If you have the ability look to look through a MRO first. I am glad I did. The dot had a very noticable comet tail. I didn't have that issue with the Pro or the T2.

[dtconnelly]

I have an SRS and I have never had any issues with it. It is on my HD carbine and I have complete faith that it will perform when I need it. Then again, I have it absolutely co-witnessed with the iron sights thst I keep deployed, so if it should fail it is an annoyance, not a crisis. For a duty weapon, I would do the same thing.

The key thing with RDS is to remember that the RDS will work perfectly well with the front lens cap on.

Give that a bit of thought.

You should not be looking through the RDS to see the target - your non-dominant eye should be looking at the target, and your dominant eye should be combining the information on the location of the red dot with the image from your non-dominant eye.

So....who cares about field of view?

The advantage that the SRS brings to the table (for me) is that it allows the red dot to be seen accurately from a very large variety of positions. You do not need a great cheek weld to see that red dot and effectively use the optic. That is why I put an SRS on my carbine instead of a PRO - it simply felt easier and more natural to get the carbine on target with the SRS.

If you are using the optic with both eyes open, I am not sure that a bit of glare or artifacts are going to cause you much of an issue.



I have no personal experience with the MRD and very limited personal experience with the aim point micro, so I won't offer any comparisons.

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[TheChunkNorris]

If it's a duty weapon... stick to an Aimpoint.

[Digital_Damage]

Unfortunately you will not find anything that is as distortion free and clear as the EoTech that is red dot'ish.

Both the Aimpoint and Trijicon MRO will have shift, tint and glare.

IMO the MRO (even with its issues) is suitable at its price point, but currently does not have the track record Aimpoint does.

Bottom line, if you want the features go MRO, if you want something with a tack record go aimpoint.

Personally I use Eotech, aimpoint and the MRO now. I will be keeping the Eotech, but since you are in Chicago it would be a good thing to switch.

[Digital_Damage]

I have an SRS and I have never had any issues with it. It is on my HD carbine and I have complete faith that it will perform when I need it. Then again, I have it absolutely co-witnessed with the iron sights thst I keep deployed, so if it should fail it is an annoyance, not a crisis. For a duty weapon, I would do the same thing.

The key thing with RDS is to remember that the RDS will work perfectly well with the front lens cap on.

Give that a bit of thought.

You should not be looking through the RDS to see the target - your non-dominant eye should be looking at the target, and your dominant eye should be combining the information on the location of the red dot with the image from your non-dominant eye.

So....who cares about field of view?

The advantage that the SRS brings to the table (for me) is that it allows the red dot to be seen accurately from a very large variety of positions. You do not need a great cheek weld to see that red dot and effectively use the optic. That is why I put an SRS on my carbine instead of a PRO - it simply felt easier and more natural to get the carbine on target with the SRS.

If you are using the optic with both eyes open, I am not sure that a bit of glare or artifacts are going to cause you much of an issue.



I have no personal experience with the MRD and very limited personal experience with the aim point micro, so I won't offer any comparisons.

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lots of people for lots of reason, search for occluded target and you will understand why.

[Osborne]

Off by 12 MOA at 32 degrees, and 20 MOA at 5 degrees.

[Ryno12]

Off by 12 MOA at 32 degrees, and 20 MOA at 5 degrees.

Wut? :confused:

[Digital_Damage]

Wut? :confused:

LOL ditto, can only assume sarcasm.

[Wake27]

We have multiple threads on the EOTech mess. It's not important to this thread so let's keep it out.


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[TF82]

Just to be clear, there is an issue and especially in the police world of liability around every corner I do think it's wise to remove Eotechs from police work. But I also think that the 20 moa shift is being somewhat misrepresented. If I recall correctly, a 20 moa parallax error from one end of the sight to the other was discovered. In other words, from my understanding, if you put the reticle at one end of the window and fire at 100 yds. and then put it at the other end and fire at 100 yds. your hits will have about a 20 inch difference at 5 degrees. Like I said, in my mind that's not acceptable, especially in law enforcement, but I also understand why just about no one has ever reported that extreme a POA/POI shift.

[ECRRRainman]

Thank you everyone for all of your insight.

As a resident of Chicago yes, I didnt feel confident with the EOTech sitting in the trunk of my car for an entire shift.

I considered the SRS due to its wide viewing area which is similar to the eotech and the MRO as a similar product in a compact design.

I will have to check with some local gun shops to see if they have display,models I can mess with to get a better personal feel for these choices.

Thanks again everyone

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[ECRRRainman]

Well I cant find a local gun shop that has any Trijicon RDS to look at so I will be grabbing an Aimpoint PRO from ADM to get one of their mounts included.

My next question is, cantilever or standard mount? Whats the difference and benefit of eaxh style mount?

Thanks again everyone for your help

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[sbrown3]

I think you will be happy with the Aimpoint PRO. I also came from an Eotech and was worried about a cluttered sight picture, if you shoot both eyes open the PRO doesn't look anymore cluttered than any other optic. As for standard vs. cantilever, it's just personal preference, unless you need the extra space for a magnifier. The cantilever mount will pitch the optic forward an inch or two. I personally have a standard mount, I like to keep all of the weight as far back as possible to keep the rifle from being nose-heavy.

[Skar]

Went from a exps2 to a pro
First time at the range with a 3x magnifire (g33)
My groups seem tighter . I like the pro .

[Blindeye_03]

I never had an issue going from an eotech to a micro rds (primary arms). I know people say you have to get used to looking through a tube with the micro dots but you arent using a rds as a scope.. I shoot both eyes open and never had an issue.