What is a "full size gun"?

[JG007]

(I pulled these posts off the NSW G19 thread to keep that one on track, and because it is a worthy discussion on its own. -ST911)

Having been issued a PD G17 for 15 years, carrying a G26 as backup, and a G19 as off duty CCW, the military choice of the G19 over the G17
always surprised me. Also had a good competitor tell me the G17 will be the choice every time (ccw wasn't discussed).

But sometimes I would shoot better with my 26 than 17 so what do I know

[Instaurator]

Great read, outside of people asking the same questions multiple times.G19 is a excellent choice for a sidearm. It's hard to argue against JSOC and the various units within, and the two largest police departments in the US, the NYPD and the LAPD. Both issue G19s as "duty pistols" to use the OPs words. I may have to sell my other Glocks and buy a couple more 19s.

[Instaurator]

I too have shot my 26 better than my 17 and 19 before. It was puzzling.

[Dennis]

Great read, outside of people asking the same questions multiple times.G19 is a excellent choice for a sidearm. It's hard to argue against JSOC and the various units within, and the two largest police departments in the US, the NYPD and the LAPD. Both issue G19s as "duty pistols" to use the OPs words. I may have to sell my other Glocks and buy a couple more 19s.
In LAPD the G19 is authorized but not issue. Only full size guns are issued and authorized for a primary duty weapon.

That said the G19 is a perfect concealed carry piece and I absolutely see it as a backup to a primary long gun.

Dennis.

[Instaurator]

In LAPD the G19 is authorized but not issue. Only full size guns are issued and authorized for a primary duty weapon.

That said the G19 is a perfect concealed carry piece and I absolutely see it as a backup to a primary long gun.

Dennis.

I looked into it some more after posting ( like an idiot) and you are most definitely correct. Apparently Chicago PD is also a larger PD than LA. But they too use G19s as duty guns.

[demkofour]

Way off topic, but for clarification only:

...It's hard to argue against JSOC and the various units within, and the two largest police departments in the US, the NYPD and the LAPD. Both issue G19s as "duty pistols" to use the OPs words...

As far as NYPD goes, they also DO NOT issue the G19 or any other pistol for that matter... The G19 is one of the authorized duty pistols.
My department, with 2300+ sworn members, issued the G19 originally but transitioned to the G23 platform. Our Emergency Service Section was issued the G17 and now the G22...

[ST911]

Having been issued a PD G17 for 15 years, carrying a G26 as backup, and a G19 as off duty CCW, the military choice of the G19 over the G17
always surprised me. Also had a good competitor tell me the G17 will be the choice every time (ccw wasn't discussed).


In LAPD the G19 is authorized but not issue. Only full size guns are issued and authorized for a primary duty weapon. That said the G19 is a perfect concealed carry piece and I absolutely see it as a backup to a primary long gun.

What does "full size gun" mean? What are the criteria for that descriptor?

Is it a physical attribute?
Purpose of model?
Quantity of barrel or grip?
If the grip is capable of containing the whole hand is it a "full size grip" or something else?

Is it a functional attribute?
How much comparative "function" or performance must be lost before something is not "full size"?

Is it the offering of a larger model? The G17 is bigger than the G19, therefore "full size" by default?
If I have a G17L and G34, is my G17 still a "full size"?

We may be thinking too narrowly about size-reduced platforms. Especially in the hands of serious shooters at the tip of the spear.


But sometimes I would shoot better with my 26 than 17 so what do I know


I too have shot my 26 better than my 17 and 19 before. It was puzzling.

The short version: The reduced grip surface area reduces the range of possible shooter-induced errors imparted to the gun. Very common. This also can apply, though less frequently, to the G19 vs the G17.

[Dennis]

If I had to make an informed guess as the historical firearms selection criteria of the LAPD I would say "full size" started with barrel length as 4" was the minimum for a uniform duty revolver. This likely morphed into barrel length and capacity with the move to semi auto 92F and 5906 and carried over to the Glock and now M&P.

Again, my guess for this original requirement would be based on increased "accuracy/sight length", and keeping lazy guys from carrying snubbies in uniform and ruining the lines of the old school duty belt. Modern reasoning would likely include capacity and influence of the Modern Technique.

Personally my G19s fit my hand perfectly and I can shoot just as fast/accurate with with them, but given that a pistol is my primary 99% of the time I just feel better with a G17 on my side due to enhanced grip and capacity. Especially when mounted with an X300U.

That said, given SOCOM requirements I see no reason a G19 wouldn't fit that role perfectly, even as an occasional primary duty weapon.

Oh yeah, G34/35 are authorized for duty uniform carry as well. I guess extra full size is better than not quite full size :-)

Dennis.

[Slater]

Historically, "full size" has been applied to the Beretta 92/M9 series, M1911, SIG P-226, Glock 17/21/22/etc, and many others in that size range. Judging by current trends, folks seem to be gravitating toward compact and subcompact variants, though.

[Slvr Surfr]

Something to consider for NSW is that the pistol is a backup sidearm to their primary rifle. My guess is that they can use the midsize gun to accomplish most intended tasks. I could see it being carried more often than being used on a mission. The compact size may be a lighter/smaller package to deal with than a larger from gun.

I guess if the G17 is a full sized gun that makes my G34 a "fuller" sized gun, right!

[ramairthree]

For semi automatics, typically guns with about a five inch barrel.

[titsonritz]

For semi automatics, typically guns with about a five inch barrel.
I's say 4.5" and above with a full size grip.

[okie john]

Full-sized semi: 1911, BHP, M9, etc.
Full-sized revolver: 4" K-frame and up.
The G19 is on the line between full-sized and compact.


Okie John

[wordsandsuits]

Sorry. Just answering the thread. A "full size" gun is anything with a grip long enough for "average" large hands....
...nevermind. Anything that is 1911 in size is a full size pistol to me. 1911 GI that is.

[WatchTheWorldBern]

I think the meaningful question raised by Rana (and other SMEs) is what purpose does a full size 17 serve that isn't fulfilled (like, eh, close enough) by a compact 19?

If you want a CCW, you don't want to go bigger than the 19. If you want a secondary on your belt, a 17 is just added weight for trivially better sight radius, barrel length, grip length, and capacity—and all your real fighting is done with your primary. If your primary is a pistol, you are probably a cop, and you hopefully don't get into gunfights very often (and there is a real question about what sort of situation you'd need to find yourself in to care about the difference between a 19 and a 17).

That said, I don't know. This admittedly runs a little counter to my thinking, which was that you'd want to run a 17 (with +2 baseplates) as a secondary to your primary, because the added bulk would be trivial. But Rana does this shit far more than I ever will (and that's probably true for most of the people reading this), so if he says take a 19 and an extra 5.56 mag, I'm mostly convinced that's wiser.

[okie john]

I think the meaningful question raised by Rana (and other SMEs) is what purpose does a full size 17 serve that isn't fulfilled (like, eh, close enough) by a compact 19?

If you want a CCW, you don't want to go bigger than the 19. If you want a secondary on your belt, a 17 is just added weight for trivially better sight radius, barrel length, grip length, and capacity—and all your real fighting is done with your primary. If your primary is a pistol, you are probably a cop, and you hopefully don't get into gunfights very often (and there is a real question about what sort of situation you'd need to find yourself in to care about the difference between a 19 and a 17).

That said, I don't know. This admittedly runs a little counter to my thinking, which was that you'd want to run a 17 (with +2 baseplates) as a secondary to your primary, because the added bulk would be trivial. But Rana does this shit far more than I ever will (and that's probably true for most of the people reading this), so if he says take a 19 and an extra 5.56 mag, I'm mostly convinced that's wiser..

Bear in mind that these guys also do plain clothes work with concealed pistols--no long guns.


Okie John

[DirectTo]

Different strokes for different folks.

A cop can strap pretty much anything on his/her duty belt and the biggest inconvenience is the grip butting up against the seat, banging on doors, or generally being a nuisance. Hence we see most departments using "full-size" guns - Glock 17/21/22/31/34/35s, M&Ps, Sig 226s, etc.
A conceal carrier, undercover officer, or any other individual needing a low profile will likely downsize to what we consider a compact or sub-compact gun since generally these will be easier to conceal.

The biggest thing I see is how good things have gotten in modern times. Really since the invention of the Glock 19, we've had a easy to hide, but still very versatile gun...compact but still with 15 rounds on tap.

Full-size will mean different things to different people but I generally think of it as I mentioned above - Glock 17/20/21/22/31/34/35, M&P9/40/357/45, Sig 220/226, 5" 1911, etc. These are guns that I personally wouldn't conceal carry due to their size and weight given my body type. Sure, I could hide any of them right now, it's jacket season, but I think of worst-case, a T-shirt during the summer, and for me that makes it a G19/23-size or smaller gun to hide without effort.