View Full Version : 80% lower receiver questions
I have been doing some reading online about 80% lowers. The general consensus online on forums and on 80% lower websites state that no markings are required on legit lowers that you finish for personal use. However, the ATF has recently updated their website and the sources that people are quoting no longer exist. This is all I could find on the ATF site (on their 80% lower page):http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/05/69b35a29a4814012bfe697bebaca7b9a.jpg
So, are there no longer any exceptions to having serials on your unfinished receivers?
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If it is still 80% then it is not a firearm but as soon as it becomes "active" then it is. There is an age cutoff on older guns that never had official "serial numbers" but I can't remember that one.
As a machinist and tool maker-the whole 80% lower craze is complete stupidity and bullshit. What are you really saving?? I've seen more messed up AR's made by garage hacks who think they are "sticking it to the man" by making their "own AR"
BTW-IIRC the serial number must be .003-.005 deep and must displace metal meaning it be roll stamped or machine engraved. The font must be .125 tall too if memory serves me right.
Someone I know completed one and was remarking about how it was untraceable and was not required to have markings. It sparked my interest but I was not able to back up his statements on the ATF website. However, 80% still claims that you do not need to mark your receiver once it is completed, but it is recommended. It's just confusing that it can be marketed that way and people are unknowingly becoming criminals... http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/05/e3b7e6183c3b7adfd594197187415595.jpg
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Its not worth the risk to find out if your breaking the law or not when it comes to that. If he were to go and sell it then he'd be in for a rude awaking. I don't see how it'd be legal to have a firearm with no serial number (even homemade) fore if you were to remove the serial number from a factory built firearm your in some deep shit.
By law, a home built receiver does not need to have a serial number, unless it's sold to another. However, the BATF recommends the receiver be marked in case it's ever stolen so it can be identified. It is no more complicated than that
wolf_walker
01-05-16, 12:23
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.92
Note that it says licensed manufacturers.
Unlicensed manufacturers, which is what a joe nobody making something
for personal use at home is, isn't required to serial them if he's keeping
them for himself. Which he should be, since selling them especially in
any volume is another matter.
80's are good fun and fine learning experiences, I learned how to drill(and ream)
proper holes and learned a TON about machine work in general from research I was prompted
to do in the course of learning how this stuff works and could work better (mostly that I need
a crap ton of money to do it "right"). With the state of modern AR jigs you'd have to
be a real clutz to not be able to make a good working receiver with relatively basic
tools. It's not cheap if you don't have a drill press and some other stuff already, the
bad rep and the pathetic jacked up stuff you see online is from people that either are
trying to not spend hundreds of dollars on tools, or are just so totally inept and inexperienced
with tools/metalworking that the result was basically inevitable. Not everyone is a tool-guy like
not everyone is a shooter. You hear people telling gun guys to get training and practice practice practice, but
nobody is telling people that want to do the first real metal cutting they have ever done to go get some training
or practice. I've been drilling and machining and making stuff in the course of building cars and whatever since I was
a kid, and I still ordered some scrap 7075 to practice on and see how it cut/drilled. You can't just waltz into
something like this and not screw up some, even if you do have some familiarity.
In today's political climate one
would have to be blind to not see the utility in this whole thing, regardless of the cost imo.
I guess the problem is that the ATF put the first pic on their 80% receiver Q&A page and it refers to "any firearm" and removed the part about who made it.
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wolf_walker
01-05-16, 12:31
Website people screw up all the time, add that to the already convoluted nature of the ATF and I take anything and everything that
isn't typed and signed with a grain of salt. And even the signed stuff is subject to change, so... yeah.....
Well with all the "do it yourself" machines out there you could do it but the flip flop of it is for what people who have no clue what they are doing, the technology to do so, or the wherewithal to make sure to learn to do it right, you will spend more in "learning" and screwing up than what it would take to but a quality lower to begin with. I'm sick of the "fly by night hack machinists" thinking they are getting one over on "the man" then bring their screw up to guys like me wanting it fixed only to get butt hurt when they hear the cost.
wolf_walker
01-05-16, 13:02
Some serious false economy going on with those things, I'm still annoyed that they cost as much or more than a finished one, they should be like $20 lol...
It's like anything else I guess, people overestimate and have grand dreams and screw up and spend more in the long run.
Only works if your head and skills are right, good fun then.
I bought all my car/tech/gun buddies that are kinda-sorta into guns or hunting but not AR's especially 80's for Christmas.
We'll have a good time cuttin em up and create some new black rifle fans in the process. Wouldn't be nearly as
cool to just buy them a finished lower. Every single one of them before the day was over was sitting on their phones looking
at AR parts. :)
If you figure the cost of machining it to the 80%, cost of the forging, and other misc costs associated with it, that should be a good indication of what quality your getting. You can buy S&W AR lowers for $100 so why waste your time?
I will admit that I plan to machine a solid billet lower (just for the challenge) but I have the proper equipment at my home shop to do it.
wolf_walker
01-05-16, 13:10
Same reason people build cars or chairs or raise chickens, damn sure easier and cheaper to just go buy them.
Some folks either like making shit (the hard way lol) or they don't. It's just one of those
dividing lines between people, and that's OK. If we were all the same it'd be boring.
I see a distinct parallel between gun guys that lump all 80% fans into crazy anti-gov bubbas as I do
anti-gun people lumping all gun-people into crazy anti-gov rednecks. Food for thought.
Well....honestly many of those that I have come across who want 80% lowers are the ones that you described above or those that more than likely can't pass a 4473 to begin with.
wolf_walker
01-05-16, 13:20
Well....honestly many of those that I have come across who want 80% lowers are the ones that you described above or those that more than likely can't pass a 4473 to begin with.
I know, and unfortunately the vocal majority of gun owners seem to be crazy camo'd up militia guys that somehow get on TV.
Same kinda thing. It's not "us" though. Maybe a case of the squeaky wheel.
Just something to keep in mind.
I agree that those morons who carry their Tapco'd out SKS around Wal-Mart preaching "Pro-Gun" this and that are just as damaging as those who wish to remove our rights all together. That being said, those that try to skirt the system and think they are getting one over on "the man" are just as bad as the a fore mentioned.
wolf_walker
01-05-16, 13:42
I agree that those morons who carry their Tapco'd out SKS around Wal-Mart preaching "Pro-Gun" this and that are just as damaging as those who wish to remove our rights all together. That being said, those that try to skirt the system and think they are getting one over on "the man" are just as bad as the aforementioned.
Depends on why and what system and man I guess. We could pretty easily all find ourselves in that position in the next few years if things don't work out well.
Never say never and all that. I don't want criminals and crazy people to have guns any more than the next sane person, but I'm willing to accept
some degree of risk of that happening for the overwhelming majority of law abiding citizens to be able to do whatever makes them happy.
Again it parallels gun control itself, it's an interesting little microcosm.
I think most of you are missing the point of my question. I'm trying to figure out the legality of finishing an 80% lower and leaving it blank (no s/n). All sites that sell them quote the receiver blanks ATF Q&A webpage and GCA 29CFR 498.xx as a source. However, as of 06/18/2015, I find that source to say something different.
And we all know the gov makes mistakes, but if I'm in a situation with an officer, I'm not going to be able to reference the ATF website and tell him that the ATF is wrong about their own rules.
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wolf_walker
01-05-16, 14:22
I linked a few posts ago to the relevant page, only needs a serial if you are selling it or if you are a licensed manufacturer.
This isn't the first time this has come up, and personally I have very little faith that an LEO that is already (justifiably) quite likely on guard
from a guy having an AR with him is going to take a printout or a URL to a site as fact on the spot if for no other reason than taking
his attention off the situation to read the long ass thing isn't a good idea unless the subject is securely in the back of the car maybe. I would imagine they call home and have
someone double check. It can't hurt, sure, but don't think the LEO is just going to say "oh, ok cool" and away you go unless they are up to speed on such things already.
If it works out that way, super, but if you're detained while he has someone higher up look it up themsleves or whatever don't be
shocked.
Here: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/when-does-receiver-need-have-markings-andor-serial-numbers
Takes you here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.92
I'm sure you can find 478 on the ATF site but the cornell one popped up high on Google.
...those that try to skirt the system and think they are getting one over on "the man"...
...are American. It's what Americans have been doing since we started pushing back against tyranny, even from our own government. It's an important way we set and maintain our freedoms and liberties. The American way of life is supposed to be a struggle. It's how we stay strong
wolf_walker
01-05-16, 14:51
...are American. It's what Americans have been doing since we started pushing back against tyranny, even from our own government. It's an important way we set and maintain our freedoms and liberties. The American way of life is supposed to be a struggle. It's how we stay strong
Man's got a point. Also see: Everyone in the entire automotive industry, ever lol......
I'm not trying to argue here, just trying to wrap my head around this. I was trying to find a statement that directly said that a home finished receiver from an individual did not need markings.
So, if I'm reading into this correctly, Joe Blow falls into a category by default. The ATF only specifies that receivers finished by licensed manufacturers (not Joe) need markings, so therefore, by default, a receiver finished by Joe would not necessitate any markings. And furthermore, unless it was sold or transferred to another individual, would not need to be registered.
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wolf_walker
01-05-16, 14:59
I'm not trying to argue here, just trying to wrap my head around this. I was trying to find a statement that directly said that a home finished receiver from an individual did not need markings.
So, if I'm reading into this correctly, Joe Blow falls into a category by default. The ATF only specifies that receivers finished by licensed manufacturers (not Joe) need markings, so therefore, by default, a receiver finished by Joe would not necessitate any markings. And furthermore, unless it was sold or transferred to another individual, would not need to be registered.
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That is my understanding after poking around on the ATF site, yes, and it's what I've heard as the understanding of most folks that have dug into it.
I do not know, nor do I condone, if anyone has written the proverbial letter to the ATF asking for clarification.
If you don't know, what usually happens is they don't say something is illegal (so it isn't) until enough people nag them about it and then they
say "fine, yes it's illegal, quit asking". Some folks, and it's their option to be that way, are worried enough to want it in black and white every
way possible, but I don't find that in keeping with the American spirit as it is imo asking permission. I don't ask permission because I'm a grownup
with good sense and morals, personally.
By law, a home built receiver does not need to have a serial number, unless it's sold to another.
No law requires SN on home made gun or when it is sold.
I think most of you are missing the point of my question. I'm trying to figure out the legality of finishing an 80% lower and leaving it blank (no s/n).
100% legal under Federal Law.
Ok. Makes sense now. I can make a gun without asking, but I can't buy one without asking. Completely logical.
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wolf_walker
01-05-16, 16:07
Ok. Makes sense now. I can make a gun without asking, but I can't buy one without asking. Completely logical.
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Merkia.
I'm actually surprised nothing has gone on with 80's and serials and such, and I expect it to at some point.
See for reference this here: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/can-functioning-firearms-made-receiver-blanks-be-traced
Where they are all but pouting about it.
It's not all that different, or even harder maybe, then 3d printed guns to keep track of/regulate, the cat is out of the proverbial bag at this point.
Some sort of rabble will be roused about as soon as a commercially viable(ratings) crime is committed with one I
imagine. Bound to happen eventually.
OP, it seems that you are correct. The ATF has appeared to change its dialogue regarding this subject. I had several links saved where it was stated by the ATF and now it appears to have changed. The only thing I was able to find that resembled the old dialogue was this:
Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.
http://www.nibin.gov/content/it-legal-assemble-firearm-commercially-available-parts-kits-can-be-purchased-internet-or
I believe these changes took place in January of 2015.
More info here: http://blog.princelaw.com/2015/01/03/atf-issues-first-ruling-of-the-new-year-is-it-the-end-of-80-lowers/
https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download
Damn ghost guns
No way in hell I would ever own 3 of them.:haha:
lawusmc0844
01-06-16, 01:39
If it is still 80% then it is not a firearm but as soon as it becomes "active" then it is. There is an age cutoff on older guns that never had official "serial numbers" but I can't remember that one.
As a machinist and tool maker-the whole 80% lower craze is complete stupidity and bullshit. What are you really saving?? I've seen more messed up AR's made by garage hacks who think they are "sticking it to the man" by making their "own AR"
BTW-IIRC the serial number must be .003-.005 deep and must displace metal meaning it be roll stamped or machine engraved. The font must be .125 tall too if memory serves me right.
Reading this and your other comments you come off like those smug jackass liberals who rants about bigotry and generalizing a whole group but declares all gun owners to be "white, bible thumping anti-gov rednecks up to no good." I hope Im wrong though and this doesn't apply to you.
In a shithole like CA, 80% lowers are not about saving money but circumventing the 10 day wait bullshit and yes not having another firearm registered to your name. Please explain how that is a bad thing. I did it with a large group of other Marines when I was still active duty stationed at Camp Pendleton, I didn't see any dirtbags that looked like they couldn't pass the 4473. Just because you don't like 80% lowers doesn't mean that others don't see the usefulness of them. It would be wise to not use the same rhetoric that liberals use.
Reading this and your other comments you come off like those smug jackass liberals who rants about bigotry and generalizing a whole group but declares all gun owners to be "white, bible thumping anti-gov rednecks up to no good." I hope Im wrong though and this doesn't apply to you.
In a shithole like CA, 80% lowers are not about saving money but circumventing the 10 day wait bullshit and yes not having another firearm registered to your name. Please explain how that is a bad thing. I did it with a large group of other Marines when I was still active duty stationed at Camp Pendleton, I didn't see any dirtbags that looked like they couldn't pass the 4473. Just because you don't like 80% lowers doesn't mean that others don't see the usefulness of them. It would be wise to not use the same rhetoric that liberals use.
"Smug jackass liberal"??? Seriously???? Wow now that's a new one. Never been called that. Forgive me for explaining what I have been seeing in my area here in Ohio. All I am trying to say is from what I have seen of the 80% lowers and many of those who have made them (or tried to) have failed miserably. I'm happy for those that have been able to make them work. I have also seen where someone who had no idea what they were doing come within drilling one hole and creating a felony as he machined the lower open too wide by accident.
Think on this if you will-remember the shit storm that was created when guys were "printing" lowers? What do you think the media would or will do when they get hold of that? Car industry and other business ideas are not under fire like the gun industry is. As much as I want to say that they are all the same principle (which they are) those that ARE anti-gun do not see it that way.
BTW it would also be wise to not accuse someone of something unless your 100% sure of their stance. I'm allowed to have a difference of opinion as this is America, and if you don't like it then it is my First Amendment right to tell that person to Kiss My A** in no uncertain terms. My points that I was initially making were from my years as a machinist and tool maker. I'm betting that several of you have my work and don't even know it but that's a whole different discussion. Perhaps you should check my other posts and threads before accusing me of a liberal...
UZI, just to clear up confusion and I get your frustration, are you in favor of banning 80% lowers?
UZI, just to clear up confusion and I get your frustration, are you in favor of banning 80% lowers?
No I'm not saying ban them at all. I'm just saying that if your going to do them then do them properly with the proper equipment and not hatchet job it. Do it to be above board and not to think your getting one over on someone.
In 1776, firearms were not serialized. Had the British forced serialization of the Colonists' firearms, it would have been yet another usurpation enumerated in the Declaration of Independence.
The MAIN reason for forced serialization of firearms is to control the population. Freedom isn't free.
In 1776 there weren't companies manufacturing like there are today either. Its about accountability. Look at what STAG just got busted for....just saying
"Smug jackass liberal"??? Seriously???? Wow now that's a new one. Never been called that. Forgive me for explaining what I have been seeing in my area here in Ohio. All I am trying to say is from what I have seen of the 80% lowers and many of those who have made them (or tried to) have failed miserably. I'm happy for those that have been able to make them work. I have also seen where someone who had no idea what they were doing come within drilling one hole and creating a felony as he machined the lower open too wide by accident.
Think on this if you will-remember the shit storm that was created when guys were "printing" lowers? What do you think the media would or will do when they get hold of that? Car industry and other business ideas are not under fire like the gun industry is. As much as I want to say that they are all the same principle (which they are) those that ARE anti-gun do not see it that way.
BTW it would also be wise to not accuse someone of something unless your 100% sure of their stance. I'm allowed to have a difference of opinion as this is America, and if you don't like it then it is my First Amendment right to tell that person to Kiss My A** in no uncertain terms. My points that I was initially making were from my years as a machinist and tool maker. I'm betting that several of you have my work and don't even know it but that's a whole different discussion. Perhaps you should check my other posts and threads before accusing me of a liberal...
Never mind. You can't argue with stupid.
In 1776 there weren't companies manufacturing like there are today either. Its about accountability. Look at what STAG just got busted for....just saying
Never mind.
What does any of this have to do with the OP's question?
I, for one, would like to hear more from others with regards to the latest ATF ruling. They have always stated that 80% lowers did not need to be serialized. It appears now that they've changed their tune.
How 'bout we leave the personal feelings out of this & get to the bottom of the matter at hand.
The "Red Coats"??? We are seriously referring to our current political climate and those in it as "Red Coats"??? I will and whole heatedly agree that our Fore Fathers would have been shooting by this point. Hell, we went to war over a $0.03 cent tax.
I'm not disagreeing that some of the laws are unconstitutional but I'm also looking at the reality of certain things too. I'm not on a high horse my friend, rather looking at things from a different point of view.
Ya this went south fast. Uzi, thanks for you input as someone with experience in the field.
Ryno, I would also like more clarification on things that have happened in the last year.
Let's try to keep the political opinions and name calling for the campfire (hard when discussing gov regulations and guns).
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I have been doing some reading online about 80% lowers. The general consensus online on forums and on 80% lower websites state that no markings are required on legit lowers that you finish for personal use. However, the ATF has recently updated their website and the sources that people are quoting no longer exist. This is all I could find on the ATF site (on their 80% lower page):
[image]
So, are there no longer any exceptions to having serials on your unfinished receivers?
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That ATF 'answer" really does not answer your question. You asked about home finished firearms.
That reference (27 CFR sec 478.92) specifically refers to how licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms...
That ATF 'answer" really does not answer your question. You asked about home finished firearms.
That reference (27 CFR sec 478.92) specifically refers to how licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms...
Right. The law you stated hasn't changed. The ATF used to have dialogue stating their stance on the subject of unlicensed users making firearms for personal use. I used to have several links to ATF pages where it was stated. Either the links are now dead or, if they're still active, the dialogue has changed. The ATF FAQ page used to contain the statement. It longer exists.
I've even looked up old threads where the same question was posed & direct answers, with quotes, were given. Those quoted statements no longer exist, hence the basis of OP's question.
In 1776 there weren't companies manufacturing like there are today either. Its about accountability. Look at what STAG just got busted for....just saying
Yes, there were companies manufacturing firearm as today. Not with CNC multi-axis machining centers, but they were mass producing firearms. The biggest manufacturer was the Tower of London, a government run business unit that produced muskets, pistols and bayonets for the British Army and Royal Navy. They had a production capacity of approximately 10 to 12 thousand units per year.
There were others, too.
All of the big names in firearms, Nock, Mortimer, Baker, etc were not one guy hunched over a vise filing away... No, these were manufacturing companies, in every sense of the word, and capable of producing several thousand firearms per year. Birmingham was another center of large scale firearms production, but, it always was regarded as slightly lower quality to London's gun makers.
There were some in the Americas, none as large and well established as the British ones, until after the 1790's.
The other common misconception of 18th Century gun making is that all guns were 'hand made' as opposed to production line made. While the actual idea of a moving production line was not there, the idea that operations in manufacturing parts can be broken down and performed by different individuals. For example, in the manufacture of a flintlock hammer, the first operation would be the forging, the forger would place a hot precut length of iron in the die and a trip hammer (usually water powered) would pound it a few times to fill the die. (Essentially the same as done today.) Next the hammer would go to the rougher, who would rough file the forging to shape, he would use clamp-on profile jigs to guide the filing so all the parts would be fairly close to the same dimensions. The rougher would pass it along to the finisher, who also had a set of jigs to maintain consistency, then the fitter, who would actually fit the hammer to the lock it would stay on.
Every part on these mid to late 18th Century flint locks made by the larger, well established companies was made this way. There were of course grades cheap grades were for trade (various indigenous peoples) run of the mill stuff for general sales to the working class and overseas sales, and the expensive custom pieces that were fished by the best craftsmen, or in really expensive bespoke pieces, the master (the guy who's name in on the window).
OH, and the Tower kept pretty good records of how much stuff they made even though they didn't serialize anything, they kept good daily and monthly production logs. Serialization is for tracking after delivery....
Microadventure
01-06-16, 08:36
Why? so you can choose your own serial number
How? Etch-a-matic
How to choose a serial number: use the SN of something you will own all your life. A camera, a stereo, a motorcycle, in my case. if someone ends up in possession of your weapon, can they please explain the remarkable coincidence of the name "Rifle AU-517" and its SN with the SN of your Sansui AU517, and the fact that the etched designation exactly matches the stencil in your other safe, which I have right here in my hand?
the alleged benefit of registration, without registration
I get your point that you made and if memory serves me correct-serializing started with maintaining records of military arms and didn't transfer over to civilian arms manufacture until the 1950's-1960's as the part numbers that the guns had on them were meant to ensure all the parts stayed with said firearm as they had to be all hand fitted.
In today's world we all know how well things are kept track of. Having a serial number is good if the gun is stolen so you can prove ownership but its bad as it can be used to "track it" too?? Like I said its a double edge sword.
It makes me sick to my stomach to hear of the Loyalists in our midst, ready to comply with unconstitutional orders, urging others to do the same, and chastising those that refuse.
lawusmc0844
01-06-16, 10:07
"Smug jackass liberal"??? Seriously???? Wow now that's a new one. Never been called that. Forgive me for explaining what I have been seeing in my area here in Ohio. All I am trying to say is from what I have seen of the 80% lowers and many of those who have made them (or tried to) have failed miserably. I'm happy for those that have been able to make them work. I have also seen where someone who had no idea what they were doing come within drilling one hole and creating a felony as he machined the lower open too wide by accident.
Think on this if you will-remember the shit storm that was created when guys were "printing" lowers? What do you think the media would or will do when they get hold of that? Car industry and other business ideas are not under fire like the gun industry is. As much as I want to say that they are all the same principle (which they are) those that ARE anti-gun do not see it that way.
BTW it would also be wise to not accuse someone of something unless your 100% sure of their stance. I'm allowed to have a difference of opinion as this is America, and if you don't like it then it is my First Amendment right to tell that person to Kiss My A** in no uncertain terms. My points that I was initially making were from my years as a machinist and tool maker. I'm betting that several of you have my work and don't even know it but that's a whole different discussion. Perhaps you should check my other posts and threads before accusing me of a liberal...
I didn't call you a smug liberal, I just pointed out that your comments regarding 80% made you come off as one. You stated earlier that the "80% craze is complete stupidity and bullshit" and guys in your area that build them look like they can't pass a 4473. With those statements I can assume that you are on a high horse and look down on 80% builders, similar to asshole braindead liberals that turn their nose up at us gun owners. Nowhere did I say you can't have a different opinion but attacking those that want to LEGALLY build a firearm without registration isn't very wise either.
Yes, it's easy to screw up and drill the lower out of spec but I've seen improperly built AK receivers too. My 80% was done with a CNC machine and it works great. Same with other friends who also went the 80% route. I'm not as mechanically inclined as some of my friends so I won't attempt to do it in my garage but I can see those that want a challenge. If people can rebuild cars or engines in their garage why not? Nothing wrong with learning the process or from your mistakes either.
At this point, **** the media and what they say. They spew their propaganda everyday especially after the mass shootings yet Americans bought enough guns to equip the entire Marine Corps during Black Friday. I see more and more people waking up and at this point anyone who still believes everything from the MSM is a gullible tool that can't be saved.
No matter what we do or how we present ourselves these toolbags have made up their mind about us and will make up anything to demonize us, like calling the NRA "terrorists". So I will use my 1st Amendment right to tell these douchebags to "Kiss my ass" and other worse terms if they got a problem with my practicing the 2nd.
I can tell you that not everything done on a CNC is done right lol Been there seen that one, programmed them for years. I don't look down on them but after dealing with many of them in the retail side of things you get a different opinion than most.
I also agree to saying F**K You to the MSM, but all I was simply trying to state was lets not give them anything else to blow out of proportion and make all gun owners and AR lovers look bad. We are on the same side of this in the end but I have seen and do see things from a different perspective than others do.
lawusmc0844
01-06-16, 11:25
I can definitely understand that. I'm glad I don't work at the front counter I'd be fired already lol
I paid extra for engraving custom rollmarks and the CNC didn't do it evenly so yes it's not perfect but I'm satisfied with my finished product.
I wish gun owners weren't so factional. Pisses me off when I see countless Glock vs 1911 Mossberg vs Remington 5.56x45 vs 7.62x39 threads and idiots hurling childish insults all over different choices of gun. No wonder why bullshit laws get passed. Is it that hard to like or even own both? The media will blow anything out of proportion but at least I see more and more people seeing through the BS.
wolf_walker
01-06-16, 11:28
No I'm not saying ban them at all. I'm just saying that if your going to do them then do them properly with the proper equipment and not hatchet job it. Do it to be above board and not to think your getting one over on someone.
With respect, if you lived somewhere like CA, you might think differently about home-finished lowers. Bearing in mind that there is overwhelming evidence that with a couple brain cells
and a modern jig, one can totally make a safe and reliably functioning lower out of a current gen 80%. It is no coincidence that so many of them originate in CA.
Recall that old saying "it isn't paranoia when they really are out to get you". Sitting pretty in Free America as it were with nothing more than a NICS check to worry about
is not imo a sufficient position to be able to decide if "getting one over" is warranted or not. I'm just passing through this nutjob end of the country myself and it's been an interesting experience, but
while I'm here I will be damned if I interact with this states government any more than I absolutely half to. And that absolutely includes not having any firearms I may or may not own being a matter of official record. 80%'s are a good fairly easy way to go about that, and if it means there are some goobers that think they are stickin it to the man for the hell of it or some other goofy reason or making some hackjob lowers out there, it ain't a bad trade-off imo.
Much like, the by far overwhelming majority of responsible gun users employ them for recreation and self defense as opposed to the small minority that use them for crimes. One can't shit on firearms just because a few, be them vocal or overly obvious, people do bad things with them, this is what the short sighted anti-gun crowd does. They assume someone with a gun or interest in them is going to do bad things, which sounds just like assuming someone doing an 80% lower is trying to do some sort of "bad thing".
See the parallel there?
Don't be that guy.
wolf_walker
01-06-16, 11:29
I wish gun owners weren't so factional. Pisses me off when I see countless Glock vs 1911 Mossberg vs Remington 5.56x45 vs 7.62x39 threads and idiots hurling childish insults all over different choices of gun. No wonder why bullshit laws get passed. Is it that hard to like or even own both? The media will blow anything out of proportion but at least I see more and more people seeing through the BS.
That is a very wise and significant observation.
I try not to be "that guy" but if you also look at the parallel of those that chastise me for my thoughts coming from a machinist and guy who works on guns compared to those who take a dremel and wood burner to their G19 because they watched something on YouTube there is a difference. This is also the same site where there was a thread that was several pages long in regards to the very thing I just referred to, a custom Glock job.
I guess you can call me one of those gun owners who asserts their rights to ownership, but also employs that others do the same AND employ the same level of responsibility that comes with said right.
Where I might come off sounding like I'm fed up with those who want to "get one over" is because 75% of those that I deal with who either as about 80% lowers are those who think just that, they are something special because they have a "ghost gun" and no one will know about it. Different areas around the country will have different views on them, but in my neck of the woods it isn't for lack of quality lowers at good prices either.
HelloLarry
01-06-16, 12:34
How do you 80% builders get your home made lower anodized?
I understand they come anodized, but that doesn't help the part that most needs to be anodized, the pin holes.
lawusmc0844
01-06-16, 12:39
I haven't been in a CA gun store in a long time but I can tell you complete and even stripped lowers are expensive last I checked, plus all the BS to get them it's better to go 80%. Even in Vegas one shop I checked out were selling stripped lowers for $199. All my 100% lowers are BCM and I got them online which normally beats local prices anyway.
"Ghost" lowers dont have a 4473 to it and that is a great thing. If it scares clowns like Kevin "Ghost Gun" DeLeon then even better.
lawusmc0844
01-06-16, 12:46
How do you 80% builders get your home made lower anodized?
I understand they come anodized, but that doesn't help the part that most needs to be anodized, the pin holes.
Fortunately when I did my 80% in Oceanside there's a local anodizing facility too. It would have been cheaper if the group I milled out the lower with anodized theirs at the same time but since that wasn't the case I paid a little more to get mine plus a scratched up receiver extension done. Its been a few years so I don't remember the price.
Some 80% lowers come anodized already but you would have to reanodize it anyway after milling it out so it's better to get a bare one.
wolf_walker
01-06-16, 12:54
How do you 80% builders get your home made lower anodized?
I understand they come anodized, but that doesn't help the part that most needs to be anodized, the pin holes.
One of the only legitimate uses for anti-rotation pins, those un-anodized holes lol...
I also drill and ream those holes and the selector for a snug fit. Not a ton of variance in
FCG pin diameter but safety selectors are all over the damn place size wise.
I'm not picky about the finish on an AR and I've had really good luck not buggering
the finish up while milling anyway.
Lot's of folks do cerakote or something, it's not HA3, but it's better than bare.
There are also tons of places that do anodizing, it's a common industrial coating, just
have to mind the legal issues and be sure the shop is OK working with what is technically a gun.
"just have to mind the legal issues and be sure the shop is OK working with what is technically a gun"
This sure seems like it could turn into a whole lot of but hurt for the shop doing the work. Can anyone besides the original builder work on the gun? How could you ship it to a paint shop that has an FFL. How would he receive it?
wolf_walker
01-06-16, 15:17
"just have to mind the legal issues and be sure the shop is OK working with what is technically a gun"
This sure seems like it could turn into a whole lot of but hurt for the shop doing the work. Can anyone besides the original builder work on the gun? How could you ship it to a paint shop that has an FFL. How would he receive it?
It is convoluted sometimes, but really no more so than having a pistol or whatever other firearm refinished, other than
the 80 would probably need a serial for an FFL to touch it. The solution is do the work yourself as is intended or find
a like minded person with the skill to help you.
If you had a local anodizer that was either cool and didn't do that stuff often or was OK with you hanging out
while it's being done, I'm sure you could get it done locally. Failing that, places like http://www.usanodizing.com
are FFL's and you can ship direct to them and they will send it direct back to you(ownership no change=no checks)
It's harder than it needs to be
but not all that bad really.
There are some wonky issues with having your local gunsmith work on your 80 that you can't finish or can't get it to
work right, basically they cannot since it's manufacturing up until it fires its first round and becomes a firearm.
Not that the ATF jumps out of the closet as soon as someone does it, but it's something to think about.
It takes a particular license to commercially (for money) make guns. There were a bunch of cases where some guy
had or access to a CNC machine and he'd invite 20 guys over and program the machine and have the lowers owner push the start button(and
give him $20 or whatever I assume), that was imo asking for trouble. The flip side is if you suck with tools and invite your handy buddy
over with promises of free beer and pizza and he does most or all of the work on your lower, so what? Yeah technically illegal(i think), but so is
half the other stuff we all do in a day. Prove it lol...
The moral of the story is if you keep your nose clean and mouth shut, be smart, and deal with locals or better yet friends or vetted
acquaintances you can do about whatever you want. Un-smart folks will be weeded out naturally.
dreamcrusher8307
01-06-16, 15:40
I wish gun owners weren't so factional. Pisses me off when I see countless Glock vs 1911 Mossberg vs Remington 5.56x45 vs 7.62x39 threads and idiots hurling childish insults all over different choices of gun. No wonder why bullshit laws get passed. Is it that hard to like or even own both? The media will blow anything out of proportion but at least I see more and more people seeing through the BS.
Not disagreeing with you at all about the media always looking to make fools of gun owners, but there's just as many "Ford v. Chevy" threads on the internet and no one seems to be discussing banning trucks.
wolf_walker
01-06-16, 15:47
Not disagreeing with you at all about the media always looking to make fools of gun owners, but there's just as many "Ford v. Chevy" threads on the internet and no one seems to be discussing banning trucks.
While it's similar, it's totally uncomparable in this context.
He's saying we shouldn't be arguing amongst ourselves because unity and solidarity is strength in the face of an enemy.
Car guys got their own problems sure, but at the moment it's much less significant if they are bickering over brands.
If we weren't essentially under attack and constant scrutiny by everyone and their brother, it would be much less
worrisome when we infight.
Not sure if I should even reply here, but I'll try. The liberal plan of "divide and conquer" is working well.
First, the op question. In post #27, ryno links a piece that is believed to change things, but if you read it, nothing has changed. The word "suggest" and "should" are not requirements. So, really, nothing has changed, as that is how it has always been.
If you add markings, they need to be a minimum of. 003" deep, and. 093" in height. Markings consist of manufacturer info and location, serial number, and caliber. Manufacturer info is name and location (city and state).
As for making an 80% being viable, that depends. You will not save money at all. You will get a challenge. You might "stick it to the man". I say this last because after you make it, and show it off to everybody you know, and especially after you post pics of it on the Internet, "the man" is fully aware of your homemade firearm.
As for sending it be anodized, recent changes in the definition of who is a "manufacturer" I believe now means that people or companies who do that must have an 07ffl, even if they let you use their equipment.
"build parties" are now regulated the same. Using a friend's equipment now requires the friend to be an 07ffl.
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With the kind of government we have this is the only way around it.....
If our government wasn't so anti- 2nd amendment we wouldn't have to buy 80% lowers.
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