View Full Version : Had a squib, in my carry pistol, with personal defense ammo
My confidence in my carry setup is completely broken right now. I had the wild hair to practice with 10 year old TAP in .40sw that just sits, cause I never shoot my SD ammo.
First three rounds were great. Remember thinking "dang, this stuff is way hotter and more accurate that my cheap plinking ammo.
Fourth round. Click..........noticed the slide out of battery just a bit. Waited 10 sec. Pulled mag, pulled slide, exposed case with unburnt powder everywhere. Powder was almost sticky?
Bullet was lodged about an inch in......
So, what does a guy do to prevent this kind of situation? I live in the desert. Ammo always indoors.
I fired 10 more after I got a brass punch and pushed the bullet out, of the barrel, which was in there way tighter than I ever would have imagined.
If that happens in a self defense situation, dang..... Does a guy need a back up gun? Is this rare? All my years of firearms I've never had a squib, much less with "good" ammo.
Leaveammoforme
01-05-16, 20:03
Cycle out your carry ammo more often than every 10 years would be a good starting place.
Inkslinger
01-05-16, 20:04
I wouldn't lose confidence in my carry setup. I wouldn't carry it loaded with ten year old ammo either...
Cycle out your carry ammo more often than every 10 years would be a good starting place.
This! I cycle at least once a year, preferably every six months, and more often for stuff that gets cycled on a regular basis. Hell I don't like carrying rounds that were chambered even once! I know I piss off the guys who still carry Black Talons "because they be the greatest, grrr!" and are carrying ammo that is what, 20+ years old, and most of which they bought at $40 a box of twenty with no ideas on how it was stored? But seriously, while ammo that is stored properly can last for quite some time, stuff loaded in mags, left sitting in the glove box, carried day in and day out, it does in my mind have an expiration date. And, hell, how much is your life worth? A box of defensive ammo is what $25 or so for Golddot or HST, I order a few every time I order ammo, if they are in stock, stock it away, cycle it, shoot the old stuff for practice, and live happy and sleep a little bit better.
FlyingHunter
01-05-16, 20:33
cause I never shoot my SD ammo.
Here's the solution. Every 6 -12 months for SD ammo.
This! I cycle at least once a year, preferably every six months, and more often for stuff that gets cycled on a regular basis. Hell I don't like carrying rounds that were chambered even once! I know I piss off the guys who still carry Black Talons "because they be the greatest, grrr!" and are carrying ammo that is what, 20+ years old, and most of which they bought at $40 a box of twenty with no ideas on how it was stored? But seriously, while ammo that is stored properly can last for quite some time, stuff loaded in mags, left sitting in the glove box, carried day in and day out, it does in my mind have an expiration date. And, hell, how much is your life worth? A box of defensive ammo is what $25 or so for Golddot or HST, I order a few every time I order ammo, if they are in stock, stock it away, cycle it, shoot the old stuff for practice, and live happy and sleep a little bit better.
Well said.
Dang. I need to blast my carry ammo. Mine is 5 years old. Yikes!
You had a defective round. You can shoot all your SD ammo you want, if it's a defect, it's not going to magically become good. 10 years is not a problem for non-defective ammo.
Drifting Fate
01-05-16, 22:27
Yeah, "hotter" and "more accurate" are oft applied descriptions of quality ammo, no just self-defense ammo.
Re. your squib, could be a defect, but, most likely the primer was compromised by cleaning solvent or oil at some point over the years.
Cycling out more often - like every 6 mos. to a year will certainly help, but mostly with overall length due to excessive chamberings. Even more important from a squib standpoint, as ammo can potentially last decades, is being careful in how you handle it and what you expose it to.
Consider new carry ammo cheap life insurance. And, bonus points, most new self-defense ammo has better sealing on the primers helping the contamination issue.
Eurodriver
01-05-16, 23:14
You had a defective round. You can shoot all your SD ammo you want, if it's a defect, it's not going to magically become good. 10 years is not a problem for non-defective ammo.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Most likely a defective round. Rare with premium ammo but not unheard of.
Question for the OP- was this ammo stored for 10 years or actually carried for 10 years? Big difference. Properly stored ammo should be good for decades.
I would rotate carry ammo at least once per year. Handgun ammo should be good after being re-chambered a few (2-4) times. Duty Rifle ammo - chamber once and it goes in the practice pile.
Yeah, "hotter" and "more accurate" are oft applied descriptions of quality ammo, no just self-defense ammo.
Re. your squib, could be a defect, but, most likely the primer was compromised by cleaning solvent or oil at some point over the years.
Cycling out more often - like every 6 mos. to a year will certainly help, but mostly with overall length due to excessive chamberings. Even more important from a squib standpoint, as ammo can potentially last decades, is being careful in how you handle it and what you expose it to.
Consider new carry ammo cheap life insurance. And, bonus points, most new self-defense ammo has better sealing on the primers helping the contamination issue.
Solvents are not the only thing which can compromise primers. Repeatedly chambering the same round causes light impacts on the primer (even in guns with firing pin safeties) which can damage the primer and cause it not to fire. We issue our guys lock boxes for their handguns and encourage them to secure them loaded "as - is".
A few years ago an Atlanta area LE agency sent out a warning regarding repeated re-chambering. One of their officers unloaded his duty pistol every night and re-loaded it the folowing morning, re-chambering the same round every morning. After 9 months of this, the officer was involved in a situation requiring deadly force. he drew his weapon, pulled the trigger and got a click instead of a bang. the officer was OK, however subsequent examination of the round revealed the anvil inside the primer had been knocked out of place by the repeated re-chambering, causing the failure to fire.
If cost is a concern, buying you self defense ammo in 50 round boxes online or in police supply stores is much cheaper than buying 20 round boxes in Gun stores or big box outdoors stores.
Another thought on squibs vs duds...
With over three decades of handgun shooting under my belt I've had several handfuls of duds and two squib rounds. Remember a dud is easily cleared... Just eject it and keep on shooting. The squib is far more dangerous since it likely pushed the bullet into the barrel. One of my squibs was in a Colt 1911 and the other in a S&W 357 Magnum revolver.
Both times I heard the gun go "click" as if it were a dud and when I inspected the firearm I found the same thing as the OP. An empty case, unburnt powder, and the bullet lodged far enough into the barrel that I could have cycled the action and fired the next round. Both required several whacks with a hammer and punch to back the bullets out of the bore.
In the 1911 had I done the standard malfunction drill of tap-rack and continue firing or pulled the revolver trigger through again I would have likely had a kaboom.
If my life is on the line I will get the gun back up and running with the assumption that the "click" was only a dud round. However, at the range I always stop and investigate those "clicks" that should have gone "bang".
Edmo
Question for the OP- was this ammo stored for 10 years or actually carried for 10 years? Big difference. Properly stored ammo should be good for decades.
Pretty much stored indoors for ten years. Where I live is a very safe place. That has given me a false sense of security and I've been very complacent and lax about carrying. I usually have a rifle or a shot gun nearby, but I don't carry my pistol everyday.
However that ammo has been rotated out and rechambered countless times. I don't have very many mags for this pistol. (Been saving for a better carry pistol and don't want to spend more on this one.) So when I do go practice or play with this pistol, I unload the sd rounds out of one mag, reload with fmj and go shoot. Pistol gets cleaned about once a year. So basically umpteen chances for eff up on my part.
It's things that I've never thought about before. I've never noticed dimpled primers in this pistol, like my ARs will do. So I figured why not. Again, dumb, dumb, dumb.
I've always focused on rifles because it's what I enjoy the most, but that thinking is dumb too.
The last week I've been carrying every day. Actually got out to shoot yesterday. My shooting is ok. Fist size group at aimed 30, opens up to about 8-10 under rapid fire. But my mentality and prep to carrying has absolutely sucked. This sqiub bullshit really scared me. Pissed at first. Then as I was hammering out the lodged bullet in my shop muttered to my self "way to go dickhead..... If you actually needed this effing thing you'd probably be dead...."
Then as I was working last night my mind started running all the scenarios that if that happened how screwed I'd be. Like in my house, or in a confrontation. My families safety, my wife....whole lotta good a rapid access safe does when your pistol sqiubs the eff out...I even had a fricking bad dream about it last night. Dammit.....
So, that said, being serious starts today. I need better holsters. I need a better carry gun. I need more ammo. Never rechamber the SD. Keep it fresh.
This whole experience has scared me and motivated to me to change my shitty habits. I really appreciate the advice, criticism, and verbal abuse [emoji3] . I hope that if there are other people doing some of the dumb shit things that I've been doing, maybe they'll read this thread, and maybe it'll motivate them to change their ways.
Thank you all for helping me open my eyes.
Lost confidence? Seriously?
Statistically speaking, the odds of that happening once is minuscule, you helped that along with the 10 years.
The likelihood of it happening again is even lower.
Multiply those odds by the probability of you actually needing it, I'll assume you haven't in 10 years, so that probability is low as well.
All of that adds up to no resin to create drama.
My confidence in my carry setup is completely broken right now. I had the wild hair to practice with 10 year old TAP in .40sw that just sits, cause I never shoot my SD ammo.
First three rounds were great. Remember thinking "dang, this stuff is way hotter and more accurate that my cheap plinking ammo.
Fourth round. Click..........noticed the slide out of battery just a bit. Waited 10 sec. Pulled mag, pulled slide, exposed case with unburnt powder everywhere. Powder was almost sticky?
Bullet was lodged about an inch in......
So, what does a guy do to prevent this kind of situation? I live in the desert. Ammo always indoors.
I fired 10 more after I got a brass punch and pushed the bullet out, of the barrel, which was in there way tighter than I ever would have imagined.
If that happens in a self defense situation, dang..... Does a guy need a back up gun? Is this rare? All my years of firearms I've never had a squib, much less with "good" ammo.
10 years?! I might go 6 - 12 months, then shoot what's in the mag and replace with new CCW/SD ammo. Never had a single issue with the ammo to date with quality SD ammo. I have had issues with the gun, but that's another issue.
10 years?! I might go 6 - 12 months, then shoot what's in the mag and replace with new CCW/SD ammo. Never had a single issue with the ammo to date with quality SD ammo. I have had issues with the gun, but that's another issue.
I know right..... what a jackass...
I haven't been accused of being smart very often if that's what you're wondering. Lol...
Evel Baldgui
01-06-16, 12:29
Every July 4th I cycle my SD ammo mags at the range, easy day for the yearly reminder !
I know right..... what a jackass...
I haven't been accused of being smart very often if that's what you're wondering. Lol...
As others mentioned, stored vs carried are two different animals. I'd assume the former. My bad. Stored properly, 10 years a non issue for quality ammo. Sounds like it would have been bad regardless, but impossible to know. Chit happens. Use the rest from that batch at the range and see if any others do it. Get new stuff from quality vetted brands (Federal, Speer, etc), stay away from new fangled small batch wonder zombie killer ammo, and drive on. Makes sure to use a new brand of SD/SSW ammo if just for the placebo confidence booster.
It always sucks to hear a click instead of a bang, and it's never a confidence builder sensation to be sure. I can lose confidence in a gun real fast if it gives me clicks vs bangs and it takes time to rebuild confidence in that gun after that, even when confident the problem was diagnosed and fixed.
Best way to rebuild confidence is to get regular range time!
I just cycled out my carry rounds this past weekend for the first time in a little over a year. I try to cycle it out at least once a year. I wouldn't fixate on the issue you had. Look at it this way: you were cognizant and knowledgeable enough to realize what had happened and did not attempt to fire another round. You could be buying that new carry piece a lot earlier than intended due to a busted gun from firing another round into the squib. Buy high quality carry ammo and rotate it at least once a year and put this incident behind you. Carry wherever you legally can, and practice whenever possible.
I just cycled out my carry rounds this past weekend for the first time in a little over a year. I try to cycle it out at least once a year. I wouldn't fixate on the issue you had. Look at it this way: you were cognizant and knowledgeable enough to realize what had happened and did not attempt to fire another round. You could be buying that new carry piece a lot earlier than intended due to a busted gun from firing another round into the squib. Buy high quality carry ammo and rotate it at least once a year and put this incident behind you. Carry wherever you legally can, and practice whenever possible.
Well said. No experience is a bad experience if you learn something from it, and it's good that it only took a relatively mild incident to get your attention.
cutter_spc
01-06-16, 20:54
Well said. No experience is a bad experience if you learn something from it, and it's good that it only took a relatively mild incident to get your attention.
This is how I think the OP should look at it.
This incident got your mind right, and caused no harm to anything other than your confidence in your set up. Nothing that some range can't cure.
turnburglar
01-07-16, 15:17
I know it sucks that it happened, but let me stress how rare this kinda thing is.
Everyone on here is saying: "don't rechamber a round, and swap out ammo at least yearly". While that definitely is solid advice for mitigating risk: Im sure theres some mil or leo, that run the same round through HUNDREDS of chamberings. I know thats a fact in almost every AF Security Forces armory I had been through. Old ammo in old mags that has been handed to a hundred other guys before you. Yet in every OIS I have first or second hand experience with: we didn't have a stopage of any kind. Granted there wasn't a highly statistically significant amount of shootings to analyze, but the point still stands. These bullets probably have had the hardest life, and the guns all go bang (unlubed i might add) enough times to stop whatever the threat was- usually a gate runner.
It's good that you have learned the error in your ways, but it's almost like you got lucky. Most gun owners will admit its rare to draw a gun, and even rarer to get a squib.
So what is the board's consensus on how to properly store ammo? What is the definition of, "properly stored ammo"?
I know it sucks that it happened, but let me stress how rare this kinda thing is.
Everyone on here is saying: "don't rechamber a round, and swap out ammo at least yearly". While that definitely is solid advice for mitigating risk: Im sure theres some mil or leo, that run the same round through HUNDREDS of chamberings. I know thats a fact in almost every AF Security Forces armory I had been through. Old ammo in old mags that has been handed to a hundred other guys before you. Yet in every OIS I have first or second hand experience with: we didn't have a stopage of any kind. Granted there wasn't a highly statistically significant amount of shootings to analyze, but the point still stands. These bullets probably have had the hardest life, and the guns all go bang (unlubed i might add) enough times to stop whatever the threat was- usually a gate runner.
It's good that you have learned the error in your ways, but it's almost like you got lucky. Most gun owners will admit its rare to draw a gun, and even rarer to get a squib.
But, you also have the incidents where issues did arise from repeated chamberings. I have heard more than a few Mil guys seeing rounds that were chmabered, cycled, reloaded dozens of times have clicks instead of bangs when it came time to drop the hammer. Yes, they might have come out the experience alive, but the point still remains, albeit as anecdotal as your point if we are to be honest. It comes back to what I said, ammo is cheap, my ass isn't. I don't see the point in taking risks, even small ones because I might never need to draw my firearm(I have had to by the way), or if I do I might not need to fire it, just to save a few bucks, and that is what we are talking about here, money, how much is your life worth? Serious question. You willing to bet the odds to save what, $50 a $100 a year? I don't, then again that is me, I don't like taking unnecessary risk on stupid shit because murphy is a royal mother****er and he doesn't like using lube.
Just put it in a sealed ammo can and toss in some moisture wicking to be on safe side. The squib round mentioned was a defect. He said it was oily or some such, I forget the word he used. But even you had a round that had a hole in the case, the powder is not going to get oily.
I've stored reloads which are far more likely to have some little issue happen than factory ammo and moved it from hot attics, to closets, to sheds and ten years later it goes bang. Never a squib. Now I did have several squibs from some really light light reloads in 38spl that someone had mis-loaded. They didn't get the powder charge or something. I would not have have kept shooting them in a semi, but in a revolver it was simply an annoyance until it was all shot up.
But none of them were ever oily, gooey, or any other such thing. They were simply under spec. That round the OP had was a defect or got contaminated when it was made. The components were defective upon construction. So it was bad the instant it came off the machine.
Just store your ammo in a cool dry place and it will keep for ages.
ETA.. just looked.. he said the powder was almost sticky... something contaminated that round. It didn't age into a defect. If that were the case, then many would have been similar.
The_Watcher
01-07-16, 19:46
I have gone up to 8 years with some Rangers i bought. I checked OAL several times and they were fine. I finally shot them up and dont really go That long anymore. Probably about 2 years or so.
Sent from my LGLK430 using Tapatalk
Did the primer ignite and not the output charge? Hard to believe that the bullet could hit the lands without the output charge burning.... unless the powder was contaminated somehow... odd.
I have ammo in the 8-10 year range and have shot 1000's of rounds with no problem, mostly 22 and 9mm. Once loaded in carry mags it gets shot within 6-8 months.
96 yo .45acp --- still goes bang.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIIZRIPsMmI
11 years in loaded mags... the springs didn't go bad either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U9aCiznnBg
All my ammo lives in FAT SAW cans with good seals and large desiccant packs recharged yearly. Fresh as the day I bought it. Some's 20 years old and shoots fine. No carry ammo can be stored properly, by definition, and must be cycled through.
How often is the question.
Most squib loads I have encountered are rounds that have been in contact with cleaning solvents and our lubricants.
Sent from my SM-T715Y using Tapatalk
Did the primer ignite and not the output charge? Hard to believe that the bullet could hit the lands without the output charge burning.... unless the powder was contaminated somehow... odd.
I still have a little bit of the powder out of that cartridge that is in the shop on my bench. I'll try to get a picture of it tomorrow. So yeah the bullet did engage the the land. It did take the slide out of battery about maybe a quarter inch. Maybe less. No bang or that pop sound that it when you watch a video of it. I knew something was up because of the out of battery part.
It look like the cartridge was still clear full of powder and there was powder in the chamber. It had an oily texture to it to me is what it seemed like. I've got 20 more rounds of this particular box also. Tomorrow when I'm in town I'll pick up a new box and I'll finish shooting this one out. I'll definitely report back my findings.
96 yo .45acp --- still goes bang.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIIZRIPsMmI
11 years in loaded mags... the springs didn't go bad either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U9aCiznnBg
On the subject of springs, I know a guy that is some kind of engineer that works with springs. He told me once that springs don't go bad just sitting it's the repetitive motion that makes them go bad.
I'm sure it's not just that simple. But that's what I remember him telling me that conversation.
Like many others have said: 'rotate a min of every 6 and max every 12'.
My EDC and two extra mags rides in my vehicle every day all day/night. I live in a humid, hot environment here in NOLA
The only time it see the inside of the house is when it gets cleaned. SD ammo is pricey, $17 a box for Hornady 124g XTP +P is what I run through the P2Ksk. So, I have to have two boxes at time to get 3 mags topped off.
I usually buy it by the case and every 3-6 months I run all three mags and top them again with fresh, climate controlled ammo.
What happened to you was probably just dumb luck. LUCKILY, you were paying attention and put another pill down the tube. Dont lose the confidence in your setup. As you have read, there has been good, consistent advice on this topic. All you need to really do is shoot your SD ammo more often and how bad of a deal can that be?!?
I've had one squib in my what some would consider short life (43) about 4 years ago. It was from brand new Winchester 100 round white box range ammunition in 9mm. I was shooting my Glock 19, and luckily it was a dull pop & the action didn't cycle. Weird thing is the bullet cleared the barrel. Kind of shook me up at first because I had been practicing rapid fire drills. Thankfully the difference in noise, and the action not cycling made it easier for me to realize that something wasn't right and not have a kaboom.
It's definitely disconcerting to have a squib. Nothing with mine I could have done as it was just a defective round. I haven't had one since either.
The only squib rounds I have seen while firing domestically manufactured ammunition, were the result of the ammunition being stored in an area with an excessive amount of moisture.
I've carried rounds in a BG38 in a pocket holster while performing yard work, spending significant amounts of time in the rain and snow, for months on end and not had a grubby looking cartridge that failed to fire. I am currently using 1940's and 1950's vintage military surplus 8mm cartridges without issue. I've also fired older .45 ACP cartridges that functioned reliably.
If the cartridges are properly stored or protected while carried, it would be difficult to find a quality cartridge that would fail to fire. If they are exposed to excessive moisture, body oil, etc., they should be rotated frequently. In the past I replaced carried defensive cartridges annually. I currently shoot carried defensive cartridges quarterly during training and replace them with fresh ammunition.
The cost of a box of defensive ammunition is much less than the insurance deductible for an emergency room visit or surgery.
Use your carry ammo for practice every 6 months or so. Then get more of it. If you're storing a bunch of it, get an airtight ammo box and throw some dessicant in there. Problem solved.
You had a defective round. You can shoot all your SD ammo you want, if it's a defect, it's not going to magically become good. 10 years is not a problem for non-defective ammo.
That is usually why I carry a BUG. Look, guns are mechanical objects and as such no matter how well you take care of them and service them there is a possibility it will not go BANG when you want it to. The chances of two weapons not going BANG when you need them to are not likely. And for those of you who say store your ammo properly and rotate with new every six months, problem solved..............there are no guarantees. Yes the likelihood of getting a bad round may be greatly diminished but I have been shooting for over 50 years and have had many, many defective rounds that were brand new quality factory ammo. It happens, that's why I carry a BUG.
JMHO
Cycle out your carry ammo more often than every 10 years would be a good starting place.
And consider a BUG - because like it or not, a squib or malfunction can happen on any round, at any time.
Springfield
02-16-16, 20:27
Some time ago we had a deputy fire a squib round that was chambered in his duty pistol. The deputy was not a gun guy and thus did not recognize the warning signs of a squib round and instead did the tap-roll-rack as he had been trained. The second round fired and caused the barrel to bulge inside the slide rendering his pistol inoperable. Fortunately he was only attempting to dispatch an injured deer and did not suffer any injuries but the consequences in a different situation could have been severe. He was using a G22 with a commonly used duty/SD round. That incident caused us to change our issued ammunition if for no other reason then to restore faith/confidence in our weapons. Many of us also began carrying backup guns as well.
Personally, I have never carried a backup when off duty and probably never will but that is a decision each person must make for themselves. I carry only quality firearms in good condition with premium ammunition that is replaced every year.
I've also only had one squib - a round of Winchester "western" 7.62x51. Action didn't cycle and it felt and sounded weak. Huge pain in an M1A where you can't get straight behind the barrel to drive it out.
I buy my carry ammo (Speer 9mm 147gr) in bulk and shoot my carry mags empty then reload a new mag/ammo every 3 months or so.
I don't carry a backup mag on me, nor a BUG. Personal preference.
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