View Full Version : Magpul MLOK vs Keymod
Which system will reign supreme and stick around?
Keymod got a good head start. But Im sure MLOK will win. If Im not mistaken Canada has already adopted MLOK to a degree. To me Keymod has always looked sketch. Because it seems that if something attached via keymod took a swift hit rearward it would fall right of the rail.
I just picked up a Colt LE6920 with Magpul SL furniture. The SL handguard utilizes the M-LOK system. This is my first experience with the M-LOK system and I'll obviously have more detailed thoughts about the functionality/practicality as I spend more time with the platform. That said, my initial impressions are positive. The M-LOK system is going to allow me to add the additional components/accessories I need. It's going to allow me to mount these components where I want them. And it's going to allow me to mount them easily/cost-effectively.
I think both systems are going to be viable for a while. It all depends upon what the user needs. All I'll ever run on the handguard is a light (and maybe a VFG). The fact that I can save a little bit of weight, time, and money, without compromising functionality, is a big plus to me.
As has been my experience with other Magpul products, the system seems to work as advertised and I expect it to be durable/reliable. Looking forward to familiarizing myself with the system/putting it to use.
On a side note, I really like the feel of the SL handguard. It's rock solid and the slimmer profile has provided a much more comfortable/effective support-hand grip.
Didn't we already have this thread going?
BoringGuy45
01-07-16, 19:41
**Deleted**
Roger that... Damn search button was hiding =)
Keymod got a good head start. But Im sure MLOK will win. If Im not mistaken Canada has already adopted MLOK to a degree. To me Keymod has always looked sketch. Because it seems that if something attached via keymod took a swift hit rearward it would fall right of the rail.
Properly designed KM accessories have a lug that engages the rear of one or more slots preventing the accessory from moving rearward. You can't even remove the accessory without loosening the screws 2-3 full revolutions allowing the lug to disengage the rear of the slot. The weak link is shared by both systems.. The screws.
For me MLOK is the clear winner thanks to this product:
https://youtu.be/x27g4TNuvnM
Now if only manufactures could get on board
Properly designed KM accessories have a lug that engages the rear of one or more slots preventing the accessory from moving rearward. You can't even remove the accessory without loosening the screws 2-3 full revolutions allowing the lug to disengage the rear of the slot. The weak link is shared by both systems.. The screws.
A visual of what the quoted person is talking about courtesy of TWANGnBANG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2oIlcbzzZ0
I went M-lok for two reasons. Magpul isn't going anywhere. My little girly pinky finds it's way into the keymod holes.
But I also think M-lok looks cleaner and doesn't look like warehouse shelving.
I just installed a ALG EMR on my 6920.
I have both, and both work as advertised.
I am still buying KeyMod rails today. The KeyMod design is a lighter design than MLOK. MLOK calls for more material in it's spec. Not anything to do with strength, just a design limitation.
KeyMod allows for less weight at the front of my rifle. The rail manufacturers will tell you this.
The few accessories I have (Lights, VGs) all lock solidly into place with KeyMod.
MLOK is no better looking than KeyMod IMO - they're both ugly. -Especially the 7-sided rails.
KeyMod takes more intentionality when attaching things perhaps - it's not idiot proof like std pic. MLOK is slightly more idiot proof than KeyMod. For that reason alone, MLOK may end up more of a long term winner, which will be a sad day IMO. But whatever. Both designs have their pros n cons.
556BlackRifle
01-08-16, 11:15
In spec - properly installed keymod rails / accessories DON'T just fall off. The system works great but, there's always room for improvement. Who will win this VHS vs Beta war is still up in the air but I will say that I'm very interested in the MLOK and the Kinect system.
There's no reason both can't exist in the market. It's not like home video or something where the entire industry has to be able to supply the entire market on one medium... as long as people are still using either one, manufacturers will make accessories for them. Seeing how so much of the AR market is mil-obsessed, it would be a major boon if one of the systems was adopted for use on rifles by the US military... but it doesn't look like they're going to move away from 1913 any time soon. I expect both will be with us for a while. As for me, make mine Keymod... mainly because I like the selection of handguards BCM and UTG Pro offer. Also the only accessory I mount that doesn't go on the top rail is a sling swivel cup, and I like how Keymod allows the swivel to go through the handguard, which keeps the mount very low profile.
You need a plier or wrench to hold the nuts when getting the screws started on Magpul MLOK accessories because of the thread lock they use. That was a little annoying. MLOK QD sockets are bulbous compared to keymod since you can't use the MLOK slot as part of the recess like you can with keymod. The KDG MLOK mounts are very compelling.
I don't think one system is better than the other as they both have their pros and cons. If the biggest complaint about keymod is just they way it looks, I am sure it will be around for a long time.
Plenty of people think Glocks are ugly and they "feel like holding a 2x4".
I'm in the Keymod camp. I've got 4 Keymod rails (KMR, NSR) and one MLok. I think the Keymod standard is superior even if the design is more expensive to implement. It is possible that Mlok will win because it is cheaper, has the KDG quick release available, and has Magpul marketing muscle behind it.
Personally, there is only one accessory that I would use with the KDG system and that is a light. Frankly, it would only be slightly helpful to have a quick release light and I'm kind of wary of stuff that can be easily removed.
So it's Keymod for me.
I like the idea of the Atlas bipod on the KDG mount, but was it just me or was that thing rocking in the slot in the video?
Defaultmp3
01-08-16, 12:58
From another forum:
Keymod
Pros:
Open source, not restrained by a TDP, which allows a manufacturer to improve upon the mounting method.
Shows better alignment of mounted items, as the attachment nut is conical and tightens into a beveled recess.
Cons:
Open source, not restrained by a TDP, which allows a manufacturer to screw-up the mounting method.
Requires higher than usual toque for a small screw to avoid loosening, but must remain low enough to prevent damage to the nut or handguard.
The attachment nut and mounting slot must be able to withstand significant torque without deforming, which makes both highly sensitive to material and hardening processes.
To reverse an item, the nut recess must first allow it, and the user must loosen and flip the nut.
M-Lok
Pros:
Patented and controlled by Magpul, which ensures that everyone that is making an M-lok accessory that bears the M-Lok logo has to have been approved by them, which keeps everyone at the standard that they want.
Attachment method can bear very high torque, ensuring that accessories won't loosen if mounted correctly.
Attachment hardware can withstand high pull force.
Items are immediately able to be reversed when mounting.
Cons:
Patented and controlled by Magpul, which prevents outside manufacturers from changing the attachment method for a specific purpose.
Attachment hardware can be shifted (without loosening) with lateral leverage.
Frankly, most people will never notice a difference if they just pick the one that they think looks the coolest, so long as high quality parts are used.
NOTE: My use of the word "frankly" is not at all condescending, but rather indicates bare honesty on my behalf, with as few words used as necessary.
Also, this:
http://i.imgbox.com/K72eXKBV.png (http://imgbox.com/K72eXKBV)
Roland's just a pseudonym, guy was in an SMU at the time of posting, which was June of 2015.
I've also heard first hand of issues with Keymod mounted bipods being pushed out of place (occurred at a John McPhee precision course of some sort, I believe with a BCM KMR). Personally, I've heard enough issues with KM to make me prefer M-LOK, all things being equal, but it's not something I will worry about, and things will never be equal between a Keymod rail and an M-LOK rail (Keymod will almost always be lighter). Right now, the only things I mount in the Keymod sections is a QD sling stud on my NSR (my PWS upper has built-in QD studs in the Keymod holes) and lights (which I can easily switch to mounting off the top Picatinny using the Unity Tactical FUSION Hub or perhaps their Monkey Bar, or use an IWC Thorntail Picatinny).
P&S has a great thread on keymod as default just posted. In their eyes MLOK > Keymod for serious use and they have experience to back that up.
titsonritz
01-08-16, 13:50
Didn't we already have this thread going?
One or two maybe. :sarcastic:
snowdog650
01-08-16, 14:00
For me MLOK is the clear winner thanks to this product:
https://youtu.be/x27g4TNuvnM
Now if only manufactures could get on board
Wow ... hadn't seen that before.
For me MLOK is the clear winner thanks to this product:
https://youtu.be/x27g4TNuvnM
Now if only manufactures could get on board
My keymod rail attachments have been loosening just sitting there. This is brilliant and I hope it gets more exposure. I'd definitely pick up a Geissele rail in favor of my KMRs.
From another forum:
Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop
Keymod
Pros:
Open source, not restrained by a TDP, which allows a manufacturer to improve upon the mounting method.
Shows better alignment of mounted items, as the attachment nut is conical and tightens into a beveled recess.
I believe this is true if you examine the design, and in practice this is evident.
Cons:
Open source, not restrained by a TDP, which allows a manufacturer to screw-up the mounting method.
Requires higher than usual toque for a small screw to avoid loosening, but must remain low enough to prevent damage to the nut or handguard.
I don't think this is true. I believe that there is a mechanical advantage to the beveled nut/rail interface that makes for a tight and sure fit without the torque necessary in a simple clamp.
The attachment nut and mounting slot must be able to withstand significant torque without deforming, which makes both highly sensitive to material and hardening processes.
To reverse an item, the nut recess must first allow it, and the user must loosen and flip the nut.
I think I understand what he was trying to say here, but wear on the Keymod slots are going to be minimal unless you are constantly installing and removing Keymod accessories in which case you might be better of with a Picatinny rail section. The Mlok also requires alignment to remove the Mlok piece.
M-Lok
Pros:
Patented and controlled by Magpul, which ensures that everyone that is making an M-lok accessory that bears the M-Lok logo has to have been approved by them, which keeps everyone at the standard that they want.
Attachment method can bear very high torque, ensuring that accessories won't loosen if mounted correctly.
As I said above I believe Keymod provides strong attachment without the necessity to torque screws very tightly. I believe Mlok requires more torque which is why it needs larger screws.
Attachment hardware can withstand high pull force.
This is probably an advantage for Mlok, but the question is: Is it necessary?
Items are immediately able to be reversed when mounting.
A definite advantage for Mlok, but many accessories don't need reversal or are designed to take reversal into account.
Cons:
Patented and controlled by Magpul, which prevents outside manufacturers from changing the attachment method for a specific purpose.
Attachment hardware can be shifted (without loosening) with lateral leverage.
This is a real disadvantage for Mlok, but does it matter? In some instances; Yes it matters. But for a lot of stuff it wouldn't.
Frankly, most people will never notice a difference if they just pick the one that they think looks the coolest, so long as high quality parts are used.
This is true IMHO, the key (no pun intended) is the use of high quality parts.
NOTE: My use of the word "frankly" is not at all condescending, but rather indicates bare honesty on my behalf, with as few words used as necessary.
Also, this:
http://i.imgbox.com/K72eXKBV.png (http://imgbox.com/K72eXKBV)
Roland's just a pseudonym, guy was in an SMU at the time of posting, which was June of 2015.
I've also heard first hand of issues with Keymod mounted bipods being pushed out of place (occurred at a John McPhee precision course of some sort, I believe with a BCM KMR). Personally, I've heard enough issues with KM to make me prefer M-LOK, all things being equal, but it's not something I will worry about, and things will never be equal between a Keymod rail and an M-LOK rail (Keymod will almost always be lighter). Right now, the only things I mount in the Keymod sections is a QD sling stud on my NSR (my PWS upper has built-in QD studs in the Keymod holes) and lights (which I can easily switch to mounting off the top Picatinny using the Unity Tactical FUSION Hub or perhaps their Monkey Bar, or use an IWC Thorntail Picatinny).
I would never put much credence in a comment made to some blog post from a guy who heard about a guy...... If I were hard core with a precision rifle running a bipod, neither Keymod or Mlok would be my rail. And if it had to be Keymod or Mlok I'd add a long multi-slot picatinny to the bottom of the Keymod or Mlok tube and attach a picatinny qd to the bi-pod.
I'm not a hard core shooter, but some of the arguments don't make sense to me in my 3+ years of using the Keymod and 18 months of Mlok. Comments in RED above.
Finally, I just don't see Keymod being more susceptible to loosening from expansion contraction than Mlok.
My keymod rail attachments have been loosening just sitting there. This is brilliant and I hope it gets more exposure. I'd definitely pick up a Geissele rail in favor of my KMRs.
I don't intend to offend you, but are you installing them correctly? I have not had a Keymod accessory loosen in more than three years of use and thousands of rounds. BTW you buy KMRs for the weight savings, G rails are a little heavier, but very high quality.
I don't intend to offend you, but are you installing them correctly? I have not had a Keymod accessory loosen in more than three years of use and thousands of rounds. BTW you buy KMRs for the weight savings, G rails are a little heavier, but very high quality.
That's the thing, as far as I know, I am doing it correctly but I haven't had someone show me exactly how to do it. I assumed that no one would put out products that would get loose under no stress. Are there standard torque in/lbs for the rails? Its all BCM stuff but I didn't get any instructions.
Yeah as far as the weight goes for the geissele vs a quad rail, I'd be happy to lug around the geissele. I love how light my KMR is but if its not going to hold stuff tight I'd rather take a few more ounces.
I'm gonna attach all the rail sections I have. Some are aluminum and some are poly. I'll let them sit and see if they all do the same thing. I'll know if I have a bad section that way.
I can see that happening to Poly sections of rail but not aluminum. I only need rail for a bipod so I always use aluminum.
Didn't we already have this thread going?
One or two maybe. :sarcastic:
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq169/bbossman1/bill-murray-groundhog-day_zpsii1dgquk.jpg
I'm not a hard core shooter, but some of the arguments don't make sense to me in my 3+ years of using the Keymod and 18 months of Mlok. Comments in RED above.
Finally, I just don't see Keymod being more susceptible to loosening from expansion contraction than Mlok.
OK...I've tried to stay out of this one, but I need to address some things that could use some clarification.
M-LOK and Keymod both repeat to <1MOA. M-LOK you just bias the accessory to one side and forward before tightening. Keymod can vary with torque values on return to zero or with slot damage.
The conical seating surface without other design features in application( that are not present in KeyMod) are an engineering NO-NO.
M-LOK doesn't NEED tighter torques, in fact, in poly it's 15in/lbs, but it can accept higher torques and it is not as narrow of a range. It's easy to hit an acceptable torque. KeyMod flirts between too loose to hold and causing mounting surface damage.
The wear on KeyMod surfaces can occur simply from retightening accessories because they keep coming loose from creep/compression of the conical seating surface and/or the nut. See engineering NO-NOs above. Then the slot is all buggered out.
Stronger pullout...Many KeyMod metal rails allow accessory pullout at forces significantly less (like almost half) than what it even requires to pull M-LOK out of polymer. M-LOK has a larger seating surface (and it's flat so when you add the force vectors KeyMods seating surfaces are really small), thicker mounting surface, stronger nuts, larger fasteners, and none of the conical seating surface problems.
Yes, it doesn't take much in many cases to pull bipods out of keymod, or even vert grips with a semi concerted effort, and anything that takes a good knock or drop can come loose. M-LOK Bipod adapters can take a bipod load that exceeds anything even remotely sensible, as in barrel touching rail on the test guns. We use them in precision classes all the time, and we have a Manfrotto tripod head mount that supports the entire rifle in a semi-cantilevered situation with ease.
Also...M-LOK is as much just the slots and lug spacing as anything. An update of the MOE slots and adaptation of a commercial Bosch type T-Nut used in industrial applications for the current backside solution. It's open to QD attachment systems as long as it works universally within the system, and you'll see more of those soon, including ones that deal with adjusting to tolerancing for lateral stability and return to zero with even greater fidelity than the 1 MOA current standard.
If anyone is happy with keymod, great. I'm not trying to dictate what a consumer should be pleased with. I just jumped in to correct some things so that information is accurate. If you go to any of the M-LOK products on our web site and look under "related info" there are two docs that lay out the what's and why's of M-LOK pretty well.
KalashniKEV
01-08-16, 16:09
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq169/bbossman1/bill-murray-groundhog-day_zpsii1dgquk.jpg
Yes, but we will keep asking... because no one wants to admit that KeyMod is already dead.
You need a plier or wrench to hold the nuts when getting the screws started on Magpul MLOK accessories because of the thread lock they use. That was a little annoying. MLOK QD sockets are bulbous compared to keymod since you can't use the MLOK slot as part of the recess like you can with keymod. The KDG MLOK mounts are very compelling.
I don't think one system is better than the other as they both have their pros and cons. If the biggest complaint about keymod is just they way it looks, I am sure it will be around for a long time.
Plenty of people think Glocks are ugly and they "feel like holding a 2x4".
Agree. I would prefer to see MLOK components without thread locker already installed. I generally have to take the rail off the gun to install the MLOK attachment (as cannot always see if the backer is turned to the correct orientation). Not a fan of that as I cannot always take the rail off or I want to install the components with the rail on the gun to best figure out position.
With that said, both systems are viable and will give the consumer good options. What is FAR more important to pay attention to is how the barrel, anti-rotation/retention system is designed. In this instance, the KMR is hands down one of the best designs available to day.
C4
That's the thing, as far as I know, I am doing it correctly but I haven't had someone show me exactly how to do it. I assumed that no one would put out products that would get loose under no stress. Are there standard torque in/lbs for the rails? Its all BCM stuff but I didn't get any instructions.
Yeah as far as the weight goes for the geissele vs a quad rail, I'd be happy to lug around the geissele. I love how light my KMR is but if its not going to hold stuff tight I'd rather take a few more ounces.
I'm gonna attach all the rail sections I have. Some are aluminum and some are poly. I'll let them sit and see if they all do the same thing. I'll know if I have a bad section that way.
I don't think you looked very hard. Torques settings and installation procedures are listed all over BCM's website! Also, no your KM accessories are not going to fall off or loosen "just sitting there." If they do, that means you probably did something wrong.
Installation Instructions
Locate the forward position of the mount, indicated by the arrow marking, located underneath the sling mount, arrow towards the muzzle.
With supplied Torx™ wrench, loosen (counter clockwise) the two mounting screws enough so the assembly can drop in and slide forward into the desired mounting position of the rail system.
Tighten screws (clockwise) until firmly secured (30 in-lbs).
For better long term secured mounting, use blue thread locking compound on mounting screw thread only.
C4
Yes, but we will keep asking... because no one wants to admit that KeyMod is already dead.
LOL, no. I have a NEW SIG MPX sitting on my shelf with the Keymod system. I also prefer it sooooo……
C4
MarshallDodge
01-08-16, 16:26
Agree. I would prefer to see MLOK components without thread locker already installed. I generally have to take the rail off the gun to install the MLOK attachment (as cannot always see if the backer is turned to the correct orientation). Not a fan of that as I cannot always take the rail off or I want to install the components with the rail on the gun to best figure out position.
With that said, both systems are viable and will give the consumer good options. What is FAR more important to pay attention to is how the barrel, anti-rotation/retention system is designed. In this instance, the KMR is hands down one of the best designs available to day.
C4
Interesting.
I am new to the M-Lok design but installed Magpul bipod mounts on two guns this last weekend in ALG rails and did not need anything but an allen wrench. If you start the nuts on the screws and then partial insert them into the M-Lok slot, you can use the slot as a wrench to hold the nut. Tighten the screw until you have just enough play to allow the nut to move into it's final resting place then finish tightening.
It would be nice if they put a little vial of Loctite in the package rather than on the screws but if it saves a buck or two then I am satisfied, and glad they thought of putting it on the screws.
I shot both guns off Harris bipods, with 100 rounds between the two of them, and everything held just fine. I shoot with gentle but constant forward pressure on the pod.
sasquatchoslav
01-08-16, 16:29
I have both, but my last two rifles and probably more moving forward are KeyMod. I have always liked my Magpul angled grip, but it was kind of bulky to *me*. I tried a slimmer profile angled foregrip on a friend's new build from Ergo Grips and it was like someone had custom made it for my hand just loved it. I'm sure someone makes a small profile one for MLOK, but it was an easy buy on my last M4 build so just did it. I like them both hope neither goes away.
Interesting.
I am new to the M-Lok design but installed Magpul bipod mounts on two guns this last weekend in ALG rails and did not need anything but an allen wrench. If you start the nuts on the screws and then partial insert them into the M-Lok slot, you can use the slot as a wrench to hold the nut. Tighten the screw until you have just enough play to allow the nut to move into it's final resting place then finish tightening.
It would be nice if they put a little vial of Loctite in the package rather than on the screws but if it saves a buck or two then I am satisfied, and glad they thought of putting it on the screws.
I shot both guns off Harris bipods, with 100 rounds between the two of them, and everything held just fine. I shoot with gentle but constant forward pressure on the pod.
The thread patch just lasts longer, that's why we use it. It is a bit of a pain for the first go round. I use either an M-LOK slot, a 7mm wrench or a leatherman to hold them while I run the screws into the nuts the first time, then run them out, put them on the accessory, and no worries. When I do a build or initial setup of a bunch of accessories, I line up a bunch of T-nuts in the vise jaws and knock them out in a couple seconds, then get to installing.
You can feel the rotation fairly easily after you do it a time or two and it's easy after that.
"Yes, it doesn't take much in many cases to pull bipods out of keymod, or even vert grips with a semi concerted effort, and anything that takes a good knock or drop can come loose"
Sorry Duane but statements like this make me think less of MagPul than I did 5 minutes ago. "in many cases", "it doesn't take much", "semi concerted" and "a good knock". All self serving comments that are at best subjective. Cheap shots to further your cause without proof of anything. Sorry bud but you just lost one.
DreadPirateMoyer
01-08-16, 18:02
"Yes, it doesn't take much in many cases to pull bipods out of keymod, or even vert grips with a semi concerted effort, and anything that takes a good knock or drop can come loose"
Sorry Duane but statements like this make me think less of MagPul than I did 5 minutes ago. "in many cases", "it doesn't take much", "semi concerted" and "a good knock". All self serving comments that are at best subjective. Cheap shots to further your cause without proof of anything. Sorry bud but you just lost one.
Based on Magpul's research and the results of the Colt Canada tests, I don't think it's subjective at all. We just haven't seen the data yet, which does make it seem subjective.
I agree with Grant that a very important thing to consider outside of the attachment method is the handguard itself, and the KMR is tied for tops these days with the Geissele handguards, imo. I just wish BCM would release an MMR too, but I think that ship has sailed. :(
I also think a BCM MMR would be a good thing. No M-LOK and the Magnesium are the only two things that have kept me from using one outside of our testing, and one of those has been resolved.
fivepointoh
01-08-16, 18:49
I also think a BCM MMR would be a good thing. No M-LOK and the Magnesium are the only two things that have kept me from using one outside of our testing, and one of those has been resolved.
I've been on a KMR BCM upper kick lately, but honestly I would prefer M-LOK also. Hoping BCM get's on board with it, understandably so, if they don't. Can always continue to buy URX 4 MLOK rails with BCM uppers.
KingsideRook
01-08-16, 18:54
"Yes, it doesn't take much in many cases to pull bipods out of keymod, or even vert grips with a semi concerted effort, and anything that takes a good knock or drop can come loose"
Sorry Duane but statements like this make me think less of MagPul than I did 5 minutes ago. "in many cases", "it doesn't take much", "semi concerted" and "a good knock". All self serving comments that are at best subjective. Cheap shots to further your cause without proof of anything. Sorry bud but you just lost one.
Happened to me before, on bipod and VFG alike. Sold the KMRs, the Noveske bipod mount, and the BCM VFGs, problem solved. I won't add anything further except to say that I am using M-LOK components now, none of my slots are chewed up, and nothing has deformed or fallen off in use.
friendlyfireisnt
01-08-16, 19:04
"Yes, it doesn't take much in many cases to pull bipods out of keymod, or even vert grips with a semi concerted effort, and anything that takes a good knock or drop can come loose"
Sorry Duane but statements like this make me think less of MagPul than I did 5 minutes ago. "in many cases", "it doesn't take much", "semi concerted" and "a good knock". All self serving comments that are at best subjective. Cheap shots to further your cause without proof of anything. Sorry bud but you just lost one.
Don't be so sensitive.
There have been reports around the web of exactly what Duane is talking about.
Since Magpul doesn't get any profit from other manufacturers selling M-Lok components, and since Magpul easily could have made Keymod accessories without spending extra cash on developing a competing system, it stands to reason that Magpul had a reason for spending the R&D money on M-Lok.
They have stated these reasons since the development. Up to you to decide if those reasons are valid in your mind.
I tend not to get emotionally attached to the attachment methods of my rails. I have 1913 rails as well as proprietary attachment methods on my rifles, and now M-Lok.
I'm currently favoring M-Lok until a better system comes out.
Like others, I would love a KMR with M-Lok. That would fit nicely with what I intend for my rifles. I don't expect it from BCM (which is a shame, as there are certain components I only purchase from BCM). I'm good with ALG EMR rails though.
SomeOtherGuy
01-08-16, 19:39
The thread patch just lasts longer, that's why we use it. It is a bit of a pain for the first go round.
What is the threadlocker - it looks like just super dry Loctite? I've been using Vibratite VC-3 on all fasteners that come to me dry and so far can't find any reason not to prefer it over the various Loctite / cyanoacrylate options. Fasteners remain easy to install but don't come loose on their own.
Other than that, I've had no issues installing MLOK accessories into Aero Precision-made rails. The first time there is a little fiddling with nut position, but then it's basically done. Not as easy as a pic rail but ditching the cheese grater and mandatory rail covers I'll take it.
What is the threadlocker - it looks like just super dry Loctite? I've been using Vibratite VC-3 on all fasteners that come to me dry and so far can't find any reason not to prefer it over the various Loctite / cyanoacrylate options. Fasteners remain easy to install but don't come loose on their own.
The man who knows for sure can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it's some flavor of nylon. I've bought screws from McMaster that have nylon thread patches that look and behave identically to what's come with my m-lok gear.
MLOK is just another word for "Everything Uses The Same Size Slot". I like the MLOK because it makes it easier for me to fabricate a way to mount something. I could make something to fit a Keylok the shape makes the task more complicated. In fact, what impressed me the most about the MLOK was not realizing the slot in the handguard was MLOK. I thought it was just a conveniently dimensioned and located slot for cooling. I don't mount much to my handgaurds but it's nice to be able to really fab something for myself when I do
JackFanToM
01-08-16, 20:51
That's the thing, as far as I know, I am doing it correctly but I haven't had someone show me exactly how to do it. I assumed that no one would put out products that would get loose under no stress. Are there standard torque in/lbs for the rails? Its all BCM stuff but I didn't get any instructions.
Yeah as far as the weight goes for the geissele vs a quad rail, I'd be happy to lug around the geissele. I love how light my KMR is but if its not going to hold stuff tight I'd rather take a few more ounces.
I'm gonna attach all the rail sections I have. Some are aluminum and some are poly. I'll let them sit and see if they all do the same thing. I'll know if I have a bad section that way.
Did you watch the Twang & Bang video re: keymod? I have never had anything loosen, and I have been running 2 KMR's for over a year, about 300-600 rounds through each a month, and I have an Atlas Bipod attached to a picatinny rail section on ones of them. I believe that proper installation, properly made KM accessories are all it takes. I have seen quite a few people that don't truly understand the system, get the nut turned around and installed backwards. I would say that is the #1 cause of what you are experiencing.
Did you watch the Twang & Bang video re: keymod? I have never had anything loosen, and I have been running 2 KMR's for over a year, about 300-600 rounds through each a month, and I have an Atlas Bipod attached to a picatinny rail section on ones of them. I believe that proper installation, properly made KM accessories are all it takes. I have seen quite a few people that don't truly understand the system, get the nut turned around and installed backwards. I would say that is the #1 cause of what you are experiencing.
I am only another sample of one, but I've jammed the KM VG, my Noveske KM Light Mount and my sling attached to a Noveske KM QD mount into all sorts of barriers for support while shooting on both my KMR and my NSR and have never had anything come loose. No signed of damage to my rails either.
I'm still waiting for my KeyMod shit to fall off the gun.
Try as I might, it's not happening.
I think I can hear all my KeyMod stuff loosening right now, just sitting there.
As much as I like KDG's Kinect, it would be nice to see the standard MLOK nuts be rotation limited. If there were two protrusions (the green dots in the attached image), you wouldn't have to worry about setting the nuts to the right depth or going too far when unscrewing them. Though I think since the nuts, at their narrowest, are as wide as the slot, the nuts might have to have a notch machined into them which would make them more expensive.
36963
I think I can hear all my KeyMod stuff loosening right now, just sitting there.
They say, on calm, cold, nights, you can hear the spirit of Eric Kincel going from house to house, re-tightening KeyMod nuts for all those who, in their darkened homes, held a torque wrench in one hand and a mirror in the other, and thrice chanted his name.
KingsideRook
01-08-16, 23:20
As much as I like KDG's Kinect, it would be nice to see the standard MLOK nuts be rotation limited. If there were two protrusions (the green dots in the attached image), you wouldn't have to worry about setting the nuts to the right depth or going too far when unscrewing them. Though I think since the nuts, at their narrowest, are as wide as the slot, the nuts might have to have a notch machined into them which would make them more expensive.
36963
I wish the Kinect was better, honestly. I was pretty hyped about Kinect sections when they came out - bought one adapter for my bipod and one rail for lights, figured I'd QD them back and forth between my dozen or so rifles with M-LOK slots up front.
I had a few nitpicks once I got them and started using them, though.
First, they don't always activate on the first try, with some M-LOK slots in different positions around my handguard. With normal M-LOK attachment, you're just bolting two rectangular nuts into the negative space of the slot, and if the slot is the right shape, it works and bolts in. The Kinect system works by having two tiny little steel posts - one front right, one back left - on the bottom of the Kinect rail/bipod section, being pressed against the metal surrounding the slot. This activates the internal spring loaded arms and locks the rail section in place. But what if the tube shape of the rail system bevels in or out around the slot, as it does at the very front of the ALG EMR rail? Then the two little posts don't both activate, only one does, and you're standing there trying to force the little rail section into the only damn position that will cause it to "automatically" pop into locking. The shape of the tube rails I use from ALG doesn't stop me from easily using any other M-LOK accessories, just the Kinect - because the Kinect replies on a wide blank flat space with no protrusions or curves, however slight, in the metal area surrounding the slot, or it won't reliably open and lock in. With the rail I've chosen, the M-LOK slots at the very front and back of the EMR rail, just aren't Kinect compatible. In their video, I can see that it works well on their rail system, the MREX, but not on at least one popular budget alternative, the EMR.
Second, the release levers, that you puch in to release the rail section, fall directly in line with whatever the rail is holding. Put a 6" light on a 1.5" or 3" section of rail, then force your fingertips between the FF tube and the light body, trying to simultaneously push two (snug fitting and flush to the FF tube) release levers. It's not easy, because the light is right in line with the levers, and longer than rail section. Same goes for bipods - if the attachment plate for the bipod is longer front-to-back than 1.5" like a Harris, you'll have to wedge your fingers into 1/2" of space to release it. Not very instant or easy. I understand that there are short rail mounted items that won't block the release levers, and bipods that don't extend past the 1.5" length of the Kinect Bipod adapter, but there's too many items I owned and wanted to QD, that were as slow to remove as they were before I bought the Kinect rail sections for them.
Lastly, those release levers interfere with rail covers of all kinds. No big deal if you don't use them, but you have to leave a full half-slot on either side of the Kinect section free of rail covers, and a full slot is better if you want room for your fingertips to press in on the levers. Not a huge deal if you don't use covers, but you certainly wouldn't accept this on a QD VFG, for example, if you wanted to have rail sections on either side of the spot for the VFG to attach. You have to leave extra slots open on both front and back, anywhere you might put a Kinect section, which sort of negates being able to use rail covers for insulation.
In short, I sent both of my Kinect sections back to Brownells. I consider it a lesson learned. The Kinect system is interesting and takes full advtange of the M-LOK slot profile for QD, but in practice, I didn't find it to be convenient, accessible or space-efficient.
They say, on calm, cold, nights, you can hear the spirit of Eric Kincel going from house to house, re-tightening KeyMod nuts for all those who, in their darkened homes, held a torque wrench in one hand and a mirror in the other, and thrice chanted his name.
Bwaha!
I wish the Kinect was better, honestly. I was pretty hyped about Kinect sections when they came out - bought one adapter for my bipod and one rail for lights, figured I'd QD them back and forth between my dozen or so rifles with M-LOK slots up front.
I had a few nitpicks once I got them and started using them, though.
First, they don't always activate on the first try, with some M-LOK slots in different positions around my handguard. With normal M-LOK attachment, you're just bolting two rectangular nuts into the negative space of the slot, and if the slot is the right shape, it works and bolts in. The Kinect system works by having two tiny little steel posts - one front right, one back left - on the bottom of the Kinect rail/bipod section, being pressed against the metal surrounding the slot. This activates the internal spring loaded arms and locks the rail section in place. But what if the tube shape of the rail system bevels in or out around the slot, as it does at the very front of the ALG EMR rail? Then the two little posts don't both activate, only one does, and you're standing there trying to force the little rail section into the only damn position that will cause it to "automatically" pop into locking. The shape of the tube rails I use from ALG doesn't stop me from easily using any other M-LOK accessories, just the Kinect - because the Kinect replies on a wide blank flat space with no protrusions or curves, however slight, in the metal area surrounding the slot, or it won't reliably open and lock in. With the rail I've chosen, the M-LOK slots at the very front and back of the EMR rail, just aren't Kinect compatible. In their video, I can see that it works well on their rail system, the MREX, but not on at least one popular budget alternative, the EMR.
Second, the release levers, that you puch in to release the rail section, fall directly in line with whatever the rail is holding. Put a 6" light on a 1.5" or 3" section of rail, then force your fingertips between the FF tube and the light body, trying to simultaneously push two (snug fitting and flush to the FF tube) release levers. It's not easy, because the light is right in line with the levers, and longer than rail section. Same goes for bipods - if the attachment plate for the bipod is longer front-to-back than 1.5" like a Harris, you'll have to wedge your fingers into 1/2" of space to release it. Not very instant or easy. I understand that there are short rail mounted items that won't block the release levers, and bipods that don't extend past the 1.5" length of the Kinect Bipod adapter, but there's too many items I owned and wanted to QD, that were as slow to remove as they were before I bought the Kinect rail sections for them.
Lastly, those release levers interfere with rail covers of all kinds. No big deal if you don't use them, but you have to leave a full half-slot on either side of the Kinect section free of rail covers, and a full slot is better if you want room for your fingertips to press in on the levers. Not a huge deal if you don't use covers, but you certainly wouldn't accept this on a QD VFG, for example, if you wanted to have rail sections on either side of the spot for the VFG to attach. You have to leave extra slots open on both front and back, anywhere you might put a Kinect section, which sort of negates being able to use rail covers for insulation.
In short, I sent both of my Kinect sections back to Brownells. I consider it a lesson learned. The Kinect system is interesting and takes full advtange of the M-LOK slot profile for QD, but in practice, I didn't find it to be convenient, accessible or space-efficient.
Thanks for the detailed write-up.
556BlackRifle
01-09-16, 00:45
Did you watch the Twang & Bang video re: keymod? I have never had anything loosen, and I have been running 2 KMR's for over a year, about 300-600 rounds through each a month, and I have an Atlas Bipod attached to a picatinny rail section on ones of them. I believe that proper installation, properly made KM accessories are all it takes. I have seen quite a few people that don't truly understand the system, get the nut turned around and installed backwards. I would say that is the #1 cause of what you are experiencing.
Same here. I have two NSRs running an Atlas on one and a Harris on the other. I'm using the same connection method you are and have a few thousand rounds through each rifle. Nothing has loosened. (Also running a light and QD mount on one of the rifles. Again no problems.) Another real world datapoint for those interested.
Happened to me before, on bipod and VFG alike. Sold the KMRs, the Noveske bipod mount, and the BCM VFGs, problem solved. I won't add anything further except to say that I am using M-LOK components now, none of my slots are chewed up, and nothing has deformed or fallen off in use.
I don't believe Noveske makes a keymod bipod mount.
They say, on calm, cold, nights, you can hear the spirit of Eric Kincel going from house to house, re-tightening KeyMod nuts for all those who, in their darkened homes, held a torque wrench in one hand and a mirror in the other, and thrice chanted his name.
Bravo! You sir, win 1 Internets
556BlackRifle
01-09-16, 03:50
I don't believe Noveske makes a keymod bipod mount.
Here you go. (And you're right, not made by Noveske, just sold by them.)
http://www.noveske.com/collections/parts/products/trx-sling-stud-bi-pod-mount
Well to be fair its not keymod and was designed for Troy TRX rails. The fact that Noveske recommended a single slot stud as a Keymod compatible bipod mount isn't your fault and I see that IWC also sells something very similar. I don't think i'd characterize this as a Keymod issue per say, but a poor design choice by the accessory maker. Even Magpie's MLOK adapter uses two fasteners and there are several Keymod versions that do too.
I've loaded up on my Atlas bipod attached to an aluminum BCM small rail section on the very end of a 13" KMR and there isn't any signs of it ripping out.
I've had key mod accessories come off, but I was a very early adopter and found those items were actually not compliant with the spec. I wonder if that's part of what people are reporting?
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I've loaded up on my Atlas bipod attached to an aluminum BCM small rail section on the very end of a 13" KMR and there isn't any signs of it ripping out.
Same thing for me with a Noveske aluminum rail section and a Harris bipod. Rock solid with no issues.
Ultimately I think Colt and The US Military will decide the winner.
I've never had anything keymod come loose either.
Either system works well.
To me the biggest difference is that mlok works on plastic hand guards.
Well to be fair its not keymod and was designed for Troy TRX rails. The fact that Noveske recommended a single slot stud as a Keymod compatible bipod mount isn't your fault and I see that IWC also sells something very similar. I don't think i'd characterize this as a Keymod issue per say, but a poor design choice by the accessory maker. Even Magpie's MLOK adapter uses two fasteners and there are several Keymod versions that do too.
I've loaded up on my Atlas bipod attached to an aluminum BCM small rail section on the very end of a 13" KMR and there isn't any signs of it ripping out.
i have the IWC version of that. i got it because the only bipod i had was a harris bipid. I'll swap to a piece of rail when i eventually upgrade to a QD bipod like an atlas or bobro but for now i dont see any issue with the existing setup. it's a lot more complicated to install but once it is installed its secure.
The winner will be whichever system the Pornography Industry chooses:
http://www.macworld.com/article/1050627/pornhd.html
The winner will be whichever system the Pornography Industry chooses:
http://www.macworld.com/article/1050627/pornhd.html
KeyMod is much more phallic than M-LOK, but M-LOK has conveniently rhyming nomenclature for various porn titles. Tough stuff.
i have the IWC version of that. i got it because the only bipod i had was a harris bipid. I'll swap to a piece of rail when i eventually upgrade to a QD bipod like an atlas or bobro but for now i dont see any issue with the existing setup. it's a lot more complicated to install but once it is installed its secure.
Check out the PWS or DD version. Those use two slots so it should spread the load much better and you don't have to add the expense of a QD attachment if you don't need it.
On another note. Larue will be coming out with a new rail to update their Stealth Uppers (maybe the PredatAR too). Larue said he was advised by people in the industry to do make a keymod version first. KAC has released MLOK version of the SR15 uppers. I don't know if this means they are moving away from Keymod. In both cases though, thats two more well know manufacturers that will likely be adding additional accessories to both platforms, which is a win for all of us as far as I am concerned.
I would be less worried about which interface "survives" as there really isn't any reason why consumers need to choose one or the other (I happily use both). Obama strengthened the user base enough for everyone.
I wish the Kinect was better, honestly. I was pretty hyped about Kinect sections when they came out - bought one adapter for my bipod and one rail for lights, figured I'd QD them back and forth between my dozen or so rifles with M-LOK slots up front.
I had a few nitpicks once I got them and started using them, though.
First, they don't always activate on the first try, with some M-LOK slots in different positions around my handguard. With normal M-LOK attachment, you're just bolting two rectangular nuts into the negative space of the slot, and if the slot is the right shape, it works and bolts in. The Kinect system works by having two tiny little steel posts - one front right, one back left - on the bottom of the Kinect rail/bipod section, being pressed against the metal surrounding the slot. This activates the internal spring loaded arms and locks the rail section in place. But what if the tube shape of the rail system bevels in or out around the slot, as it does at the very front of the ALG EMR rail? Then the two little posts don't both activate, only one does, and you're standing there trying to force the little rail section into the only damn position that will cause it to "automatically" pop into locking. The shape of the tube rails I use from ALG doesn't stop me from easily using any other M-LOK accessories, just the Kinect - because the Kinect replies on a wide blank flat space with no protrusions or curves, however slight, in the metal area surrounding the slot, or it won't reliably open and lock in. With the rail I've chosen, the M-LOK slots at the very front and back of the EMR rail, just aren't Kinect compatible. In their video, I can see that it works well on their rail system, the MREX, but not on at least one popular budget alternative, the EMR.
Second, the release levers, that you puch in to release the rail section, fall directly in line with whatever the rail is holding. Put a 6" light on a 1.5" or 3" section of rail, then force your fingertips between the FF tube and the light body, trying to simultaneously push two (snug fitting and flush to the FF tube) release levers. It's not easy, because the light is right in line with the levers, and longer than rail section. Same goes for bipods - if the attachment plate for the bipod is longer front-to-back than 1.5" like a Harris, you'll have to wedge your fingers into 1/2" of space to release it. Not very instant or easy. I understand that there are short rail mounted items that won't block the release levers, and bipods that don't extend past the 1.5" length of the Kinect Bipod adapter, but there's too many items I owned and wanted to QD, that were as slow to remove as they were before I bought the Kinect rail sections for them.
Lastly, those release levers interfere with rail covers of all kinds. No big deal if you don't use them, but you have to leave a full half-slot on either side of the Kinect section free of rail covers, and a full slot is better if you want room for your fingertips to press in on the levers. Not a huge deal if you don't use covers, but you certainly wouldn't accept this on a QD VFG, for example, if you wanted to have rail sections on either side of the spot for the VFG to attach. You have to leave extra slots open on both front and back, anywhere you might put a Kinect section, which sort of negates being able to use rail covers for insulation.
In short, I sent both of my Kinect sections back to Brownells. I consider it a lesson learned. The Kinect system is interesting and takes full advtange of the M-LOK slot profile for QD, but in practice, I didn't find it to be convenient, accessible or space-efficient.
Fantastic/thorough write-up. Thanks for taking the time to share.
Out of curiosity, have you had any experience with using the Kinect sections on polymer M-LOK handguards such as the Magpul SL? I'm particularly interested in how the steel posts interact with the polymer.
jackblack73
01-10-16, 01:00
I wish the Kinect was better, honestly. I was pretty hyped about Kinect sections when they came out - bought one adapter for my bipod and one rail for lights, figured I'd QD them back and forth between my dozen or so rifles with M-LOK slots up front.
I had a few nitpicks once I got them and started using them, though.
First, they don't always activate on the first try, with some M-LOK slots in different positions around my handguard. With normal M-LOK attachment, you're just bolting two rectangular nuts into the negative space of the slot, and if the slot is the right shape, it works and bolts in. The Kinect system works by having two tiny little steel posts - one front right, one back left - on the bottom of the Kinect rail/bipod section, being pressed against the metal surrounding the slot. This activates the internal spring loaded arms and locks the rail section in place. But what if the tube shape of the rail system bevels in or out around the slot, as it does at the very front of the ALG EMR rail? Then the two little posts don't both activate, only one does, and you're standing there trying to force the little rail section into the only damn position that will cause it to "automatically" pop into locking. The shape of the tube rails I use from ALG doesn't stop me from easily using any other M-LOK accessories, just the Kinect - because the Kinect replies on a wide blank flat space with no protrusions or curves, however slight, in the metal area surrounding the slot, or it won't reliably open and lock in. With the rail I've chosen, the M-LOK slots at the very front and back of the EMR rail, just aren't Kinect compatible. In their video, I can see that it works well on their rail system, the MREX, but not on at least one popular budget alternative, the EMR.
Is this with the current version of the ALG rail? IIRC the first version needed to be revised because it didn't have a flat area around the MLOK slot.
Hey I want a hybrid, M-Lok slot then 2-3 Keymods then M-Lok so I can use any accessory I want. :p
Hey I want a hybrid, M-Lok slot then 2-3 Keymods then M-Lok so I can use any accessory I want. :p
If you build it, they will come.
KingsideRook
01-10-16, 10:09
Is this with the current version of the ALG rail? IIRC the first version needed to be revised because it didn't have a flat area around the MLOK slot.
This is the current iteration, only a few months old. I went to get a rail out of the safe, because my recollection was that there was a slight "hump" just beyond the flat area of the slot up front - but my recollection was wrong, it's actually towards the back of the rail that the tube body of the EMR widens, just behind the flattened areas of the slots. Everything else I've installed there fits great, Arisaka mounts, Magpul M-LOK rails, it's only the release levers of the Kinect extending a millimeter or two past that flattened area surrounding the slot, and will interfere with the body, preventing me from installing it there.
I was conflating that issue with the one I had persistently with the bipod mount section, where only one post would be depressed, one locking lever would engage and the second one couldn't be positioned to engage, with the added tension of one engaged lever and the section "blind" under the bipod body. That issue had nothing to do with rail design, it's just difficult to install Kinect sections if both levers don't fire into place simultaneously.
I'm still really happy with M-LOK on my rifles, and I don't think that the Kinect systems shortcomings are the end of the world, but I would still love to see an iterated version that is a little more forgiving and addresses my complaints, or other QD alternatives. That said, once I sent my sections back, I was able to equip 6 rifles with Magpul fixed polymer cantilever light mounts, for what two Kinect rail sections cost. Moving around a Scout light in a LaRue LT272 Throw Lever mount, from rail to rail, works better for me.
KalashniKEV
01-10-16, 10:40
I generally have to take the rail off the gun to install the MLOK attachment (as cannot always see if the backer is turned to the correct orientation). Not a fan of that as I cannot always take the rail off...
Interesting.
I've never had to remove-the-rail to install any MLOK stuff. Anybody else?
I'm also not saying that my Keymod stuff falls off.
If you build it, they will come.
Manticore Arms Transformer Rail
I think ultimately the argument is moot since there are already mounting solutions that can fit both. I know IWC has a light mount that does. If you can get accessories that fit both just pick the one you think looks better and roll on.
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Anybody else?
Don't know if this counts but I had to remove a MOE SL handguard and manually twist the MLOK nut to remove an AFG since it managed to spin past 90 degrees during install and got wedged in there.
For me MLOK is the clear winner thanks to this product:
https://youtu.be/x27g4TNuvnM
Now if only manufactures could get on board
It amazes me how many cool things are out there that I don't know of. This product makes me glad I went M-LOK. I will buy from this company real soon.
KingsideRook
01-10-16, 16:56
It amazes me how many cool things are out there that I don't know of. This product makes me glad I went M-LOK. I will buy from this company real soon.
Did you read the rest of the thread? I'm trying not to be the total opposite of a salesman, but I did write about some issues I had with mine.
Did you read the rest of the thread? I'm trying not to be the total opposite of a salesman, but I did write about some issues I had with mine.
I went back and read what you said and you have some very valid points. I have an SLR rail and would like a QD setup for an Atlas bipod. Looking at the pictures, do you think it would work on my rail? It looks pretty flat.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/10/3e2ae46502de58a3c21527d66adb981f.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/10/13fb7793dd023767a1aecfec75a46c2b.jpg
KingsideRook
01-10-16, 19:56
I went back and read what you said and you have some very valid points. I have an SLR rail and would like a QD setup for an Atlas bipod. Looking at the pictures, do you think it would work on my rail? It looks pretty flat.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/10/3e2ae46502de58a3c21527d66adb981f.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/10/13fb7793dd023767a1aecfec75a46c2b.jpg
To my eye, I think that the body of the Atlas bipod wouldn't cover the tabs on the longer Kinect sections at all - they'd still be accessible.
OK...I've tried to stay out of this one, but I need to address some things that could use some clarification.
M-LOK and Keymod both repeat to <1MOA. M-LOK you just bias the accessory to one side and forward before tightening. Keymod can vary with torque values on return to zero or with slot damage.
The conical seating surface without other design features in application( that are not present in KeyMod) are an engineering NO-NO.
M-LOK doesn't NEED tighter torques, in fact, in poly it's 15in/lbs, but it can accept higher torques and it is not as narrow of a range. It's easy to hit an acceptable torque. KeyMod flirts between too loose to hold and causing mounting surface damage.
The wear on KeyMod surfaces can occur simply from retightening accessories because they keep coming loose from creep/compression of the conical seating surface and/or the nut. See engineering NO-NOs above. Then the slot is all buggered out.
Stronger pullout...Many KeyMod metal rails allow accessory pullout at forces significantly less (like almost half) than what it even requires to pull M-LOK out of polymer. M-LOK has a larger seating surface (and it's flat so when you add the force vectors KeyMods seating surfaces are really small), thicker mounting surface, stronger nuts, larger fasteners, and none of the conical seating surface problems.
Yes, it doesn't take much in many cases to pull bipods out of keymod, or even vert grips with a semi concerted effort, and anything that takes a good knock or drop can come loose. M-LOK Bipod adapters can take a bipod load that exceeds anything even remotely sensible, as in barrel touching rail on the test guns. We use them in precision classes all the time, and we have a Manfrotto tripod head mount that supports the entire rifle in a semi-cantilevered situation with ease.
Also...M-LOK is as much just the slots and lug spacing as anything. An update of the MOE slots and adaptation of a commercial Bosch type T-Nut used in industrial applications for the current backside solution. It's open to QD attachment systems as long as it works universally within the system, and you'll see more of those soon, including ones that deal with adjusting to tolerancing for lateral stability and return to zero with even greater fidelity than the 1 MOA current standard.
If anyone is happy with keymod, great. I'm not trying to dictate what a consumer should be pleased with. I just jumped in to correct some things so that information is accurate. If you go to any of the M-LOK products on our web site and look under "related info" there are two docs that lay out the what's and why's of M-LOK pretty well.
I know you believe in your product, but you made some pretty general statements that do NOT align with my experience or the experience of many if not most Keymod users. I can see how pullout strength is enhanced, but that is not the whole story with regard to accessory attachment or location. I am currently happy with the Keymod rails I have and find my Mlok rail to be very acceptable and will use it as well, but I currently prefer Keymod.
I briefly glanced over some prints and it looks like an MLOK slot would fit on the dust cover of a 1911. Has anyone considered or tried this?
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What would you do with the spring and rod?
What would you do with the spring and rod?
Do to the vast superiority of mlok you wouldn't need them anymore.
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556BlackRifle
01-11-16, 10:34
Do to the vast superiority of mlok you wouldn't need them anymore.
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LOL!!
masenomics
01-11-16, 20:03
LOL!!
That's what I was thinking, tatertot I think GH41 meant how can you mount an M-Lok accessory on the dust cover of a 1911 without interrupting function of the recoil spring and guide rod.
I briefly glanced over some prints and it looks like an MLOK slot would fit on the dust cover of a 1911. Has anyone considered or tried this?
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Could you explain what you are talking about? I am lost.
BufordTJustice
01-11-16, 20:48
For me MLOK is the clear winner thanks to this product:
https://youtu.be/x27g4TNuvnM
Now if only manufactures could get on board
Not interested. I could easily see a sling/glove/barrier pinching one or both of those QD tabs. But my KM rails are all for work guns.
Are there mlok rail covers as thin as keymod rail covers?
TexasAggie2005
01-11-16, 20:56
Are there mlok rail covers as thin as keymod rail covers?
Magpul's Type 1 covers are the thinnest MLOK covers I've seen. I have not compared them head to head to Bravo's KeyMod though.
patriot_man
01-26-16, 19:17
I figured this would be the place to ask but does anyone know the pull out strength of Keymod on an aluminum rail?
M-LOK exceeds 300lbs and is stronger than KM with Colt Canada even citing that fact as a result of their testing. I like how Magpul is up-front about their data and figures and I wish the same could be said about KM.
KM is not upfront with their data because it is open source. Mlok is standardized and all companies make Mlok the same. Companies making keymod make all their interfaces potentially different.
patriot_man
01-26-16, 20:23
KM is not upfront with their data because it is open source. Mlok is standardized and all companies make Mlok the same. Companies making keymod make all their interfaces potentially different.
I see. Well it would be interesting to hear some data from any source - particularly what Colt Canada found.
BufordTJustice
01-26-16, 21:05
I see. Well it would be interesting to hear some data from any source - particularly what Colt Canada found.
What colt Canada found is only indicative of the performance of the specific product(s) they tested.
FlyingChipmunk
01-27-16, 14:28
KM is not upfront with their data because it is open source. Mlok is standardized and all companies make Mlok the same. Companies making keymod make all their interfaces potentially different.
Don't companies making Keymod rails still have to match the dimensions etc. within tolerance? I'm assuming material is the only thing 3rd parties can alter.
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I hate to say it, but I just never felt comfortable with beveled edge that Keymod uses with no other support mechanism, but I'm no engineer so I literally don't know what I'm talking about...
Speaking of which, any professional engineers here that can chime in?
Don't companies making Keymod rails still have to match the dimensions etc. within tolerance? I'm assuming material is the only thing 3rd parties can alter.
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I hate to say it, but I just never felt comfortable with beveled edge that Keymod uses with no other support mechanism, but I'm no engineer so I literally don't know what I'm talking about...
Speaking of which, any professional engineers here that can chime in?
To fly the M-lok logo, they have to meet spec... it's open source too.
FlyingChipmunk
01-27-16, 15:30
As a customer so I want to see Keymod doing well to keep the competition going, but with Colt Canada, CZ going MLOK and DD releasing a rifle with MLOK, I think Mlok is really starting to pick up with big manufacturers. As far as I'm aware Sig is the "big" guy pushing Keymod.
Has there been any push from military to adopt Keymod/Mlok etc.? I know some units are using Detachable rails systems, but they are so few in number...
Only potential hindrance from military adopting Mlok is having to buy T-nut from Magpul and Keymod don't require companies to buy Keymod nut from them.. Correct me if I'm wrong tho.
Don't companies making Keymod rails still have to match the dimensions etc. within tolerance? I'm assuming material is the only thing 3rd parties can alter.
-------------------------------------
I hate to say it, but I just never felt comfortable with beveled edge that Keymod uses with no other support mechanism, but I'm no engineer so I literally don't know what I'm talking about...
Speaking of which, any professional engineers here that can chime in?
I haven't looked in any great detail but that beveled edge looks like it functions as a taper mount of sorts, which are pretty darn secure.
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These MLOK fasteners are the most finicky things I have ever dealt with.
Don't think I am an MLOK hater either as I own 2 X22 stocks, SGA MLOK pump for my 870, an MOE SL hand guard on a carbine and AK and just ordered an MREX MLOK rail for my SCAR.
In doing such I also ordered a KDG QD MLOK mount to swap between the rifles for use with my bipod. Anyway, that would mean removal of the Magpul aluminum MLOK rail section installed in one of my X22 stocks. There was absolutely zero indication when the nuts were aligned with the slots so removal consisted of pulling on the rail while I loosened the screws till I felt the nuts fall into the slot.
I then read Magpuls MLOK Tips document (http://magpul.com/Admin/Public/DWSDownload.aspx?File=%2fFiles%2fFiles%2fPDF%2fPropaganda%2fM-LOK_Tips.pdf) and see that it said a "FULL" turn and that you can verify nut position by looking into rail (not possible on X22).
So I tried one full turn, 90%, 110% and I still required me to pull down to feel the nut fall into the slot. Also managed to chew up the back side of one of the MLOK slots.
Conversely, this hasn't been my experience with Keymod.
To fly the M-lok logo, they have to meet spec... it's open source too.
Except nobody really checks it. There are a few rails that I'm almost positive don't follow the spec, specifically the called out widths of the flat. I feel for Magpul in this case - that's a sticky situation to all involved.
Edit, to clarify: I feel for Magpul in that enforcing this can get ugly, extrusions are expensive, etc.
As a customer so I want to see Keymod doing well to keep the competition going, but with Colt Canada, CZ going MLOK and DD releasing a rifle with MLOK, I think Mlok is really starting to pick up with big manufacturers. As far as I'm aware Sig is the "big" guy pushing Keymod.
Has there been any push from military to adopt Keymod/Mlok etc.? I know some units are using Detachable rails systems, but they are so few in number...
Only potential hindrance from military adopting Mlok is having to buy T-nut from Magpul and Keymod doesn't have such.. Correct me if I'm wrong tho.
M-Lok nuts can be made by anyone that follows the TDP, but we get a pretty good price on Qty, so many folks just buy them from us.
Several sub-components as well as other fed programs have voiced their choice on attachment system based on examining both, and you may see US Mil test data shortly that will validate that, and the results of Colt Canada.
Sig also had two rifles with ALG M-LOK rails in their SHOT booth.
These MLOK fasteners are the most finicky things I have ever dealt with.
Don't think I am an MLOK hater either as I own 2 X22 stocks, SGA MLOK pump for my 870, an MOE SL hand guard on a carbine and AK and just ordered an MREX MLOK rail for my SCAR.
In doing such I also ordered a KDG QD MLOK mount to swap between the rifles for use with my bipod. Anyway, that would mean removal of the Magpul aluminum MLOK rail section installed in one of my X22 stocks. There was absolutely zero indication when the nuts were aligned with the slots so removal consisted of pulling on the rail while I loosened the screws till I felt the nuts fall into the slot.
I then read Magpuls MLOK Tips document (http://magpul.com/Admin/Public/DWSDownload.aspx?File=%2fFiles%2fFiles%2fPDF%2fPropaganda%2fM-LOK_Tips.pdf) and see that it said a "FULL" turn and that you can verify nut position by looking into rail (not possible on X22).
So I tried one full turn, 90%, 110% and I still required me to pull down to feel the nut fall into the slot. Also managed to chew up the back side of one of the MLOK slots.
Conversely, this hasn't been my experience with Keymod.
If you run them on once and then back off the screws to loosen up the patch a bit before install, it's much smoother. There's an M-LOK tips and tricks document under the additional information tab on every M-LOK product on our site.
I am not having a problem with screw tightness. There is just absolutely zero indication of nut position other then pulling down while loosening the screws.
I found this to be rather surprising: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/01/28/m-lok-outselling-keymod-about-3-to-1/
"Despite being the “younger” universal mounting system out there, MagPul’s M-LOK standard is outselling KeyMod at a rate of about 3 to 1. According to my good friend Matt over at Jerking the Trigger"
I found this to be rather surprising: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/01/28/m-lok-outselling-keymod-about-3-to-1/
"Despite being the “younger” universal mounting system out there, MagPul’s M-LOK standard is outselling KeyMod at a rate of about 3 to 1. According to my good friend Matt over at Jerking the Trigger"
So a couple of things on that click bait article. The orginal came from Jerking the trigger - http://jerkingthetrigger.com/2016/01/25/m-lok-versus-keymod-what-do-the-sales-say/. Matt called a bunch of manufacturers and some got back to him and some didn't. M-LOK is generally on the less expensive handguards including the MOE SL which makes them more prevalent and are the OEM furniture for some rifles. Not poo-pooing M-LOK (I own both and they are both fine) and I love magpul, but there needs to be a little bit of critical thinking around all this. Magpul does seem as of late to be out in full force with their talking points and there are plenty of fan boys to regurgitate it all. The whole thing slightly reminds me of the Microsoft / Linux server debate of the early 2000s.
The drop in plastic hand guards, of which Magpul is almost the whole market, still makes up the majority of hand guards, so if you look at that perspective, it is easy to see that M-LOK far out sells keymod.
I am not having a problem with screw tightness. There is just absolutely zero indication of nut position other then pulling down while loosening the screws.
Agree. This is the issue for me as well and have things come off rails because I just couldn't tell where it was.
C4
For those that are not aware, some of the best firearms instructors in the world use or have used Keymod rails (Vickers, D4, Pannone, Hackathorn, MAC, etc). Having talked with many of them, I don't remember hearing them complain about any issues, things falling off, etc. I have also been a long time keymod user and have no issues (ever).
With that said, can you hit something hard enough to rip if off a rail (whether keymod, MLOK, etc)? Yes, you sure can. In fact, I have seen people break picatinny rails! Nothing is impossible to do if you try hard enough.
As I have stated thousands of times, what matters MORE is how the rail interfaces with the gun. For me, there are only about 2-3 rails that I would ever even consider using because of this. If you like MLOK, great. If you like Keymod, great. If you like Picatinny, great. Just pay attention to the design!
C4
There's no doubt MLOK is selling well right now. It's new.
All the kids on TOS are scooping it up - mainly for aesthetics reasons from what they are saying.
Pros and cons, I now own both. I dislike the weight MLOK brings over KeyMod. Like taking a slight step back for something less than evolutionary. I also just put a new 7" NSR KeyMod on my 300BLK build less than a week ago.
I get asked all the time which is better, and which will out last the other....I basically say they are both here to stay, and both work fine, and there are more and more products all the time for both.
I have both. I prefer Mlok and will continue to purchase that technology. I will admit one is not drastically better as an attachment method, though I slightly prefer Mlok in this regard.
Aesthetics wise I think Mlok is very easy on the eyes.
The big difference here and what I think will be make or break is the big companies pushing Mlok. Magpul, Geisele, Colt Canada, CZ, and any of the many AR companies that come with Magpul furniture, like Colt.
I love my BCM KMR and Mod3 vertical grip. If not for these two products I would not use key mod any more.
Being released first Keymod had an advantage with early adopters such as trainers, certain high speed units etc. What is telling is that starting with that disadvantage M-LOK is making some pretty big gains, showing up on Colt and Colt Canada and KAC rifles. Like it or not aesthetics do matter, I have never liked the look of Keymod and planed on just sticking with Picatinny but M-LOK is growing on me. The thing is it doesn't have to be better, if just as good and it looks better to more people it's market share will continue to grow.
With so many manufacturers making both, both will survive, unless there is a massive drop off in demand, and even then...I mean quad rails are still around.
TheChunkNorris
01-28-16, 08:07
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/01/28/m-lok-outselling-keymod-about-3-to-1/
Found the article interesting.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/01/28/m-lok-outselling-keymod-about-3-to-1/
Found the article interesting.
MLOK components are pretty cheap and widely available. KM is going to be more expensive. Reason? More complexity going on with KM (which add cost). So MLOK should out pace KM in sales for that reason alone. With that said, BCM cannot keep KM rails in stock and their rifles with their rail system also fly of the shelves.
C4
There are two systems, the M-LOK and the Key Mod. Both work just fine. The advantages of one over the other are negligible. One looks awesome and the other looks like someone took a Home Depot rack upright and stuck it on the end of an AR15.
Choices choices.
With that said, BCM cannot keep KM rails in stock and their rifles with their rail system also fly of the shelves.
C4
Like you said in a previous post, it is all about the attachment method and overall design of the rail. The BCM KMR is an absolutely fantastic rail, the material, profile and lock up system are all top notch.
However the only way to get it is in Key Mod, the real apples to apples comparison would be if BCM did sell a Mlok version of the KMR. I have a feeling the Mlok version would out sell the Key mod version.
Like you said in a previous post, it is all about the attachment method and overall design of the rail. The BCM KMR is an absolutely fantastic rail, the material, profile and lock up system are all top notch.
However the only way to get it is in Key Mod, the real apples to apples comparison would be if BCM did sell a Mlok version of the KMR. I have a feeling the Mlok version would out sell the Key mod version.
You are probably right as most people go towards the cheaper priced accessories.
C4
I would buy a KMR if mlok. Don't care about the accessory price, but just b/c my other rails are mlok or pic. Don't want all 3 systems.
The main reason I went m-lok was reversibility and the fact I have the option to use polymer handguards and accessories. I can realistically have mountable handguards on every rifle without breaking the bank....
You are probably right as most people go towards the cheaper priced accessories.
C4
And because of the sheer numbers of Magpul MLOK ploymer hand guards out there, including several companies using them as OEM, this will drive a lot of MLOK accessories.
You are probably right as most people go towards the cheaper priced accessories.
C4
Price difference between an Mlok rail and KeyMod from the same manufacturer is a ~10% difference, not huge, 189$ vs. 210$. That may get some people on the fence.
I do think that the difference in aesthetics is quite drastic and many agree, this I think will be the biggest deciding factor for people.
I bet at identical price points BCM would sell twice as many Mlok rails as Keymod, if MI is 3 to 1 with a price difference.
PatrioticDisorder
01-28-16, 11:03
You are probably right as most people go towards the cheaper priced accessories.
C4
Just my two cents but for me it has ZERO to do with cost of accessories and everything to do with MLOK being a more secure attachment method. Magpul has their stuff together and I doubt they would snub keymod just for the sake of snubbing it. Also KDG's Kinnect system for MLOK quick attach/detach is pure genius, definitely NOT CHEAP but an excellent MLOK design... And from a personal preference standpoint, I really like the Magpul accessories so that does help.
mutedblade
01-28-16, 13:16
I hope someone from BCM is following this conversation. I am quite certain that they would gain lots of business if they manufactured a M-Lok rail system and offered their uppers with either option. M-lok is definitely the prom queen of the group!
I hope someone from BCM is following this conversation. I am quite certain that they would gain lots of business if they manufactured a M-Lok rail system and offered their uppers with either option. M-lok is definitely the prom queen of the group!
You do realize the guy that developed keymod is the head of R&D for BCM?
JackFanToM
01-28-16, 13:37
BCM cannot keep km rails in stock, so selling more is probably a non-issue. Switching manufacture of that level is pretty costly, so where is their upside? Aesthetics are important, but comfort and ergos are more important. My kmr with rail covers is still super thin, easy to wrap my mitts around and control, light and oh my with rail covers on who can tell what the rail looks like underneath.
Am I the only one who thinks keymod looks better than mlok?
I have used both and dont really care about looks, but I keep seeing people saying how much better mlok looks over keymod. I have to say I like the "industrial" look of keymod.
^^
I think both are equally as ugly. Especially the 7-sided rails of either.
From Odin Works:
Maybe the most common question we got asked last week is what is more popular, KMOD or M-LOK? While we can't speak for the industry we can certainly share with you our Q4 number on forend sales. Surprisingly it's almost 60/40 split in favor of KMOD.
JackFanToM
01-28-16, 14:05
Compared to picatinny quad rails, my KMRs are all beauty queens. Honestly, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but being that this is a tool, I consider it a functional object so its function dictates its beauty.
The main reason I went m-lok was reversibility and the fact I have the option to use polymer handguards and accessories. I can realistically have mountable handguards on every rifle without breaking the bank....
You will be able to do that with KM now too!
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?179436-Bravo-Company-USA-SHOT-201-by-SMGLee
C4
Price difference between an Mlok rail and KeyMod from the same manufacturer is a ~10% difference, not huge, 189$ vs. 210$. That may get some people on the fence.
I do think that the difference in aesthetics is quite drastic and many agree, this I think will be the biggest deciding factor for people.
I bet at identical price points BCM would sell twice as many Mlok rails as Keymod, if MI is 3 to 1 with a price difference.
They quite possible could. Don't think we will ever find out though.
C4
Just my two cents but for me it has ZERO to do with cost of accessories and everything to do with MLOK being a more secure attachment method. Magpul has their stuff together and I doubt they would snub keymod just for the sake of snubbing it. Also KDG's Kinnect system for MLOK quick attach/detach is pure genius, definitely NOT CHEAP but an excellent MLOK design... And from a personal preference standpoint, I really like the Magpul accessories so that does help.
I don't think most people would run into ANY issue with KM not securing something. None of my stuff has ever fallen off. :-)
C4
Compared to picatinny quad rails, my KMRs are all beauty queens. Honestly, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but being that this is a tool, I consider it a functional object so its function dictates its beauty.
Looks do play an important part and everyone has an opinion. The KMR is one of the best looking rails I have seen (and I have just about owned them all). The size and weight also add a lot of it, but then again, that is all subjective and there is no right or wrong answer.
C4
mutedblade
01-28-16, 14:21
You do realize the guy that developed keymod is the head of R&D for BCM?
I do but does that mean he's gonna cut off his nose to spite his face? There's a huge market financially and to disregard it may lead to him being out of a job. I personally just bought a Recce 16 upper from BCM so I am invested in keymod but I would like to see BCM offer the same rail with M-lok. Just a little more appealing to me and from all accounts is just as functional as keymod.
I do but does that mean he's gonna cut off his nose to spite his face? There's a huge market financially and to disregard it may lead to him being out of a job. I personally just bought a Recce 16 upper from BCM so I am invested in keymod but I would like to see BCM offer the same rail with M-lok. Just a little more appealing to me and from all accounts is just as functional as keymod.
Is it possible BCM would make an MLOK rail? I think so, but first, BCM would have to be flush with KM rails (read, they no longer sell any). I think that day is a long ways off.
C4
As much as I would like an mlok kmr alpha, I agree with that.
If they can already sell basically as much as they're capable of manufacturing, no point I investing in new tooling.
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They quite possible could. Don't think we will ever find out though.
C4
As I posted just a few minutes ago, Odin Works announced they sell KMOD 60%, MLOK 40%, and I believe they price them the same.
Fatorangecat
01-28-16, 15:07
This is ridiculous to even debate. Each system has pros and cons. Each system has demand. Each system is backed by an industry driver. A year from now we will all be selling rails for the next best thing.
mutedblade
01-28-16, 15:30
Is it possible BCM would make an MLOK rail? I think so, but first, BCM would have to be flush with KM rails (read, they no longer sell any). I think that day is a long ways off.C4
I'll agree with that statement. Wishful thinking I suppose!
You will be able to do that with KM now too!
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?179436-Bravo-Company-USA-SHOT-201-by-SMGLee
C4
That's cool. Would have made the choice a lot harder if that had been out before now. I'm quite invested now :p
The taper cut in Keymod in polymer does concern me a bit. Polymer likes to break when you thin it down that way. Winder how they counteract that.
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That's cool. Would have made the choice a lot harder if that had been out before now. I'm quite invested now :p
The taper cut in Keymod in polymer does concern me a bit. Polymer likes to break when you thin it down that way. Winder how they counteract that.
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They're steel reinforced
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They're steel reinforced
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Good deal. Those will probably be winners for them
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I don't own mlok, so I can't comment on it. I do, however, own two kmr rails that I have never had any problems with.
Having said that, I do think there is a problem with km when it comes to grips and accessories where pressure is applied. In the past I never paid too much attention to stories about "disasters" with km until my buddy ripped the grip off his kmr. After that happened I was sufficiently spooked to remove the grips off my kmr's and go with a straight rail. I still think there is tremendous value in the rail, it is thin and very light weight. Additionally, light mounts and other hardware that does not have pressure applied are good to go. I'm not getting rid of the rails anytime soon, I'm just going to use them in a way that I feel is strongest.
For those who have seen grips ripped off, do you know if they were direct attached, or on rail sections, and were the rail sections poly or aluminum?
The one I saw was directly attached.
The one I saw was directly attached.
Pictures??
Pictures??
Unfortunately, pictures are something I do not have, and I do realize the consequences of posting without them. If I get them, I will post them. So, i guess for now, all I'm doing is bantering on the Internet.
FlyingChipmunk
01-28-16, 23:35
Am I the only one who thinks keymod looks better than mlok?
I have used both and dont really care about looks, but I keep seeing people saying how much better mlok looks over keymod. I have to say I like the "industrial" look of keymod.
I couldn't stand the look of Keymod, but now I've kinda grown into it, still prefer the look of MLOK.
FlyingChipmunk
01-28-16, 23:41
Off-topic, but do you guys know about HK's "take" on KM? I wonder if it has same nut/mechanism.
Defaultmp3
01-29-16, 00:53
Off-topic, but do you guys know about HK's "take" on KM? I wonder if it has same nut/mechanism.Yes, it uses KeyMod mounting hardware, or so I was told by CS when I called in. Accuracy International, on the other hand, is not compatible with KeyMod; IIRC, their KeySlot system predates KeyMod?
Serious Account
01-29-16, 01:05
Are either KM or MLOK strong enough for user to mount an under barrel grenade launcher?
Are either KM or MLOK strong enough for user to mount an under barrel grenade launcher?
I would think that if the overall rail itself is strong enough then a mount could be made that was strong enough. All you would have to do is use more KM holes or M-LOK slots to spread the load.
Yes, it uses KeyMod mounting hardware, or so I was told by CS when I called in. Accuracy International, on the other hand, is not compatible with KeyMod; IIRC, their KeySlot system predates KeyMod?
HK does not use KeyMod. The hardware is completely different. Not only are the key slots reversed, the chamfer on the backside of the rail is at a different angle. The HK nut is larger. :)
Are either KM or MLOK strong enough for user to mount an under barrel grenade launcher?
I will say a qualified yes for M-LOK, in that we have looked at it, done the math and the FEA, some preliminary testing to validate concept, and it should not be an issue. You have to have a stout rail to deal with the forces, but with a long enough interface, it's an application that we are ready to build and test when the time comes.
JackFanToM
01-29-16, 13:07
Does anyone else find it odd that everyone wants BCM to make MLOK KMRs, but no one has asked Magpul to make KM accessories. I guess I will be the one to do so, so how bout it Duane. BCM is entrenched with KM and can't keep up with demand, any chance Magpul will take a run at the other side and produce their accessories in KM?
Does anyone else find it odd that everyone wants BCM to make MLOK KMRs, but no one has asked Magpul to make KM accessories. I guess I will be the one to do so, so how bout it Duane. BCM is entrenched with KM and can't keep up with demand, any chance Magpul will take a run at the other side and produce their accessories in KM?Magpul has stated time and time again they will not be wasting time developing accessories for keymod... and why would they? If it wasn't for the KMR keymod would be a thing of the past already.
JackFanToM
01-29-16, 13:25
Thank you for your participation, but I was hoping for a response from a Magpul rep, and not the peanut gallery. We all know whose kool-aid you drink. From what I read, both platforms are alive and doing well, and I doubt KM is solely alive due to the KMR.
DreadPirateMoyer
01-29-16, 13:33
Thank you for your participation, but I was hoping for a response from a Magpul rep, and not the peanut gallery. We all know whose kool-aid you drink. From what I read, both platforms are alive and doing well, and I doubt KM is solely alive due to the KMR.
Might want to go to PMs or stop posting on public forums altogether if you don't want comments from "the peanut gallery."
And Magpul has already given a response on this. Multiple times. The peanut gallery was only relaying exactly what you asked for. Search for it on this very forum if you want to see an exact quote from the horse's mouth. It's on here.
Other than the MLOK tips PDF, anyone else have any tricks to getting the nuts timed for accessory removal?
JackFanToM
01-29-16, 14:04
hence the word hoping...all other comments are meaningless, and in the customer service industry you are used to being asked the same thing over and over again. That is why I directed my question to the one person who could actually answer it. Also, in any industry, if there is enough demand to warrant a change, a change will be made. How do you know if their is enough demand, often by people requesting it. Lastly, I'm 100% aware that neither side plans to retool, but in this thread it has been asked several times if BCM plans to retool, so I thought I would ask the question to the other side.
"The peanut gallery" doesn't really KNOW the answer, only Magpul does. The question may have been asked a 1000 times before, but unless you ask again how will you know if things have changed? The reality is, if both sides have the capability to add the other platform, they stand to increase revenues. I'm not sure how much the expense side of that would be in setting up manufacturing lines, retooling, manpower, marketing, etc., so I have no idea if it will be profitable, but I do know that there is revenue on the table.
Dread, not sure what company you represent, but I now plan to find out, and avoid it like the plague. As a site sponsor you should realize that everyone on this forum is a potential customer, and react accordingly.
Other than the MLOK tips PDF, anyone else have any tricks to getting the nuts timed for accessory removal?
Once you loosen both at least a half turn or so, easiest way is to pull up juuuust a little on one end at a time as you orient the nuts. As one nut lifts into the slot, aligned, just leave that end tipped up to keep alignment while you get the other.
And yes, the whole point of M-LOK is that we just didn't feel comfortable with the KeyMod value proposition in either polymer or metal due to our testing. If it fits someone's needs, we're not here to say you shouldn't be happy with it, but we just didn't feel it was what we wanted to offer our customers as far as performance was concerned, and that hasn't changed.
Once you loosen both at least a half turn or so, easiest way is to pull up juuuust a little on one end at a time as you orient the nuts. As one nut lifts into the slot, aligned, just leave that end tipped up to keep alignment while you get the other.
Ok thanks, so exactly what I have been doing, but with a little more finesse so I don't chew up the back side of my polymer stock anymore. :)
DreadPirateMoyer
01-29-16, 14:46
hence the word hoping...all other comments are meaningless, and in the customer service industry you are used to being asked the same thing over and over again. That is why I directed my question to the one person who could actually answer it. Also, in any industry, if there is enough demand to warrant a change, a change will be made. How do you know if their is enough demand, often by people requesting it. Lastly, I'm 100% aware that neither side plans to retool, but in this thread it has been asked several times if BCM plans to retool, so I thought I would ask the question to the other side.
"The peanut gallery" doesn't really KNOW the answer, only Magpul does. The question may have been asked a 1000 times before, but unless you ask again how will you know if things have changed? The reality is, if both sides have the capability to add the other platform, they stand to increase revenues. I'm not sure how much the expense side of that would be in setting up manufacturing lines, retooling, manpower, marketing, etc., so I have no idea if it will be profitable, but I do know that there is revenue on the table.
Dread, not sure what company you represent, but I now plan to find out, and avoid it like the plague. As a site sponsor you should realize that everyone on this forum is a potential customer, and react accordingly.
I don't represent any company. Site sponsor means I've sent money to the owners of M4C to help support it, because it's a great website and I want to see it continue to exist.
We did know and tried helping you out. Your attitude was bad and you were disrespectful to another member. Don't get so chafed when you have that returned to you.
ETA: Duane is the man, like usual.
I don’t understand why all this matters that much. What are all these accessories that need to be mounted?
I run a light on every rifle I have and generally don’t move them around. Other than that, a vert grip is the only thing that interfaces with the KM or M-LOK. Red dot/scope gets mounted on the uppers pic rail as does BUIS. Only other thing I mount is DBAL and that goes on the rails top pic rail.
I own both and as I said, I don’t really move mounts between guns. They are tools that are set up for their given task. I think the new MOE SL handguards are awesome for quick and dirty setups and love the extra real-estate but the way the M-LOK slots are laid out it’s not all that helpful to run a light. In the end I think the best way to do it is the way these guys did it - http://fleetingsurvival.com/2015/09/adding-a-light-to-a-moe-sl-handguard/. But it's nice to have way more accessoires for MOE handguards.
The only accessories that I wish went both ways were BCM’s mod 3 vert grip and Magpul’s M-LOK Tripod Adapter. Other than that, doe it really matter. Clearly it matters to BCM and Magpul but should there be endless threads and tons of click bait articles about it.
Sorry for the rant but we seem to talk a lot more about hardware lately and not software. You get to a point where the hardware doesn’t really matter as long as its quality. And if it does, we are either talking about a second kind of cool or you need to spend more money on training because all that crap you have hanging off your gun is going to be in the way when you actually go to use it moving and shooting.
And yes, the whole point of M-LOK is that we just didn't feel comfortable with the KeyMod value proposition in either polymer or metal due to our testing. If it fits someone's needs, we're not here to say you shouldn't be happy with it, but we just didn't feel it was what we wanted to offer our customers as far as performance was concerned, and that hasn't changed.Sorry you had to repeat this for 1001st time.
JackFanToM
01-29-16, 18:16
Duane, I have to ask, did my question offend you in any way? Is it odd for you to be asked to repeat the same answers numerous times? Did you feel that you were attacked and that the fellow members of the forum had to run to your defense?
I think that people are confused to why the question was asked. I'm confused as to why it was such taboo to ask a business representative a question about their business's future. I bet that you have been asked if you are going to release a product in some certain color way more often than if you are going to produce KM items. I also know that many companies change perspectives over time, and things change. Magpul continues to add to their product line, so it is not inconceivable that they may change their minds.
I think it is good for a market to have choices, and it good for the consumer to have options. This is healthy, and those that are secretly hoping that their platform will survive and the other will cease to exist are very short sighted. I prefer to think along the lines of where will this lead us. With all new products, there needs to be a reason for them to exist, a consumer they are geared for, or a problem they resolve. Both MLOK and keymod address issues that exist with picatinny, but now bring up new issues to discuss and some really smart guy will figure out the solutions and make a buncha money. This is good for everyone.
My question to Duane was a consumer focused question, if Magpul was to begin to make KM, or BCM were to make MLOK the consumer wins. I have faith that Magpul employs some really smart folk, and if they decided to tackle the issues they see with KM I'm sure they would bring some really nice products to market and ditto with BCM.
Same questions, same answers.
JackFanToM
01-29-16, 18:43
Seems like a pretty closed minded way of thinking. That leaves no room for adjustment due to time, market, demand, etc...Personally, I prefer things to continually evolve, but if you want to stick with the same answer, by all means knock yourself out.
PapaFoxtrot
01-30-16, 09:15
I know this is redundant, but if BCM is waiting for a resounding market demand for complete M-LOK handguard uppers, then put my name on the list. BCM is simply one of the best companies I have ever purchased from, and my next upper will be M-LOK.
But BCM's KMR vs M-LOK situation doesn't need to be a Ford vs GM, either/or only proposition, does it? Yes, I know BCM KMRs sell out completely, they can't keep up with orders, and don't "need" to offer M-LOK.
But BCM shows no strict, exclusive, vertical integration of their other offerings elsewhere in their catalog. They sell products supplied by DD, Larue, LMT, Troy, MI, Vltor, TD, Stag, and others, even Magpul…. why be exclusionary with M-LOK handguards? (Yes, I am ignorant about this.)
I know their in-house engineering developed KMR, but does Peterbilt send away every buyer who wants a Cummins in their tractor, just because it will make their in-house PACCAR engine team feel sad and rejected? Nope, Peterbilt will install the Cummins for them. Don't force the buyer to seek another supplier, don't lose the sale. (Yes, not a great analogy.)
Hopefully the lack of M-LOK will change once BCM surpasses whatever ROI threshold they have set for their KMR production.
This is BCM's call to make, of course, but given the growing popularity of M-LOK, why limit consumer choice? An "alpha" M-Lok handguard would be perfect with me; I do not want the magesium alloy.
I sure would like to have the "truck" I want, AND have my choice of the exact powertrain option along with the trim level.
Just think of it as a staring contest.
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Yes, I know BCM KMRs sell out completely, they can't keep up with orders, and don't "need" to offer M-LOK.
why be exclusionary with M-LOK handguards? (Yes, I am ignorant about this.)
I believe its temporary that they will not sell the M-Lok KMR.
As stated they sell out of KMRs and have trouble getting material for them. Those potential Mlok sales will be there in the future so long as another better rail does not come out. By holding off on Mlok now they can make all those Key mod sales while they are going hot.
Then down the road when every one and there grand mother has a KMR they will start selling M-Lok ones to fill sales back out. The demand for Mlok rails will also be greater then as M-loks market share will continue to displace KeyMod.
I think we'll see them in the two to three year time frame.
Fatorangecat
02-03-16, 15:17
I think in 2-3 years we will see something entirely different. Handguards are like man jewelry, not long ago everybody had quad rails and carbon fiber had it's day. If we keep rushing to buy new Nikes every year manufacturers are going to continue coming up with new handguards whether they are different systems or different aesthetically every couple years.
BufordTJustice
02-03-16, 15:36
I think in 2-3 years we will see something entirely different. Handguards are like man jewelry, not long ago everybody had quad rails and carbon fiber had it's day. If we keep rushing to buy new Nikes every year manufacturers are going to continue coming up with new handguards whether they are different systems or different aesthetically every couple years.
Honestly, and this is a bit of a drift here, I think one of the coming trends will be under-handguard barrel cooling fins (similar to the JP barrel cooling fins) of various metals and coatings. This gives all the advantages of a heavy barrel without the weight (except for rigidity). Think some Al or Al-Mg or Al-Li fins cut for each profile with what would be equivalent to high temp CPU thermal compound between it and the barrel to establish effective thermal coupling. Even if this were only applied to the first 4 or 6 inches after the chamber, an enormous amount of additional heat dissipation could be realized for a very nominal increase in weight (1-4 oz).
Just the world according to me.
Derail/over
I think in 2-3 years we will see something entirely different. Handguards are like man jewelry, not long ago everybody had quad rails and carbon fiber had it's day. If we keep rushing to buy new Nikes every year manufacturers are going to continue coming up with new handguards whether they are different systems or different aesthetically every couple years.
I disagree to an extent, as I said a better product could come out, though the KMR is hard to beat.
But I think the mounting system the the KMR uses will be relevant for many years to come, its that good. By this I mean the barrel nut hard ware and dimension of the rail at the barrel nut. Ultimately the rest could change with future releases, right now we only have one configuration in two materials, dimensionally the same though. The next and easiest evolution would be, hmm idk... M-Lok? We can hope, the demand sure seems to be there.
To justify 2-3 years I would use Daniel Defense and the Lite rail as a great example.
Daniel Defense released the Lite rail in 2006, then it really was the lightest. 10 years later it is still relevant, it exists with some small changes (Lite III) and newer key mod and now coming out M-Lok versions. They all use the same barrel nut and lock up system Daniel defense realesed 10 years ago now. I also think the Giessele SMR series of rails will remain relevant for a long time to come as well in the same way, with them we've seen 8+ versions, they seem to have settled on M-Lok.
One of my first builds used a Lite rail, I still have and use it. I'll still use my KMR in ten years and hopefully have a M-Lok version in the stable.
Fatorangecat
02-04-16, 10:17
I don't disagree with any of that I'm just saying manufacturers have to reinvent the wheel with some AR components just to keep up demand. I just swapped an MK5 to an MK8. The Geissele design is awesome but in two years if Geissele is making an MK12 I will want it too. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, competition drives innovation and in the end we get better products to choose from. I'm just saying if you want the latest and greatest your going to be swapping handguards every 2-3 years. I hope Mlok has some endurance it seems Keymod is losing momentum with the exception of the KMR.
EzGoingKev
02-07-16, 21:09
Didn't the Marine Corps test both the keymod and the m-lok system? If so, what were their findings?
MOhunter92
02-11-16, 13:12
I'm just trying to figure out whether I want to buY the DDM4 v11LW or V7LW. Leaning towards the M lok but it's tough
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If they make something lighter than the KMR with similar strength, I'll be interested. Running mostly KMRs for weight savings rather than do dads on the rails. Just cause there's a hole doesn't mean you have to attach crap on it. One of my BCM KMRs 14.5 has a Vortex HD on it and it's still lighter than most set ups out there. For me it's weight > crap on rails and hole shape.
Considering the Adams Arms AA15 won't fit many handguards, and the cheapest drop in set that fits well (but way tight) is the MOE SL. MOE SL is my first experience with another handguard. The M-LOK cuts are thin, not overly problematic, and create a very nice "sleek" look. I like the locking lugs that are on the M-Lok and the way they operate. Again, no experience with Keymod, but I absolutely appreciate the fitment the M-Lok provides.
Now if only the rails and addins would get cheaper (thankfully it looks like alot of companies are already starting to offer Mlok or something similar).
The carbine length two piece drop in is awesome! Way better and I feel much less likely to have a snag or issues. It mounts accesories nice, but I am limiting it to a 3 section rail and a VFG with a cree light built onto it.
The MAGPUL products, I only have experience with the polymer not the aluminum, seem to hold well and strong. One piece of advice, I had the handguard off when I tightened the T-Nuts down and then was able to work them loose if I ever needed. Seeming some of the ways to set them the right height on youtube look like a PITA.
But seriously, anyone who has an AA15, throw a set onto it, just make sure you have an extra set of hands, because that thing does NOT like to be forced on. It compresses your Delta Ring pretty far down once installed, but it is ROCK solid.
I learned the hard way to leave the piston in for installation. (Spring spun under the delta ring and had to unassemble and rotate the opening in the butterfly/welded spring so the piston will slide through.) So keep that in mind. But, considering I do not have the funds to work with a Samsonite or DD rail (Forgive any spelling or incorrect names as I don't want to look up the "compatible" list), it's the best bang for your buck.
If they make something lighter than the KMR with similar strength, I'll be interested.
Honestly, from my perspective as an engineer, that's going to be tough to do without pushing the price point beyond what most people would pay. IMO whoever is doing BCMs design/engineering work is a rock star, getting the KMR down to the weight it is without driving the price sky high. To drop weight and maintain strength, you generally have to start looking at things like titanium or more exotic steel and aluminum alloys, which are all pricey....
Find ManBearPig!
02-21-16, 01:52
I am still buying KeyMod rails today. The KeyMod design is a lighter design than MLOK. MLOK calls for more material in it's spec. Not anything to do with strength, just a design limitation.
KeyMod allows for less weight at the front of my rifle. The rail manufacturers will tell you this.
Alright, I'm resurrecting this thread because I'm curious about this aspect of KeyMod vs. M-Lok. I believe I've heard from other places as well that M-Lok has some for sort of weight disadvantage against KeyMod, simply to due to the design differences. However, after searching around a little, I can't seem to find any real information on this. While Brahmzy's explanation as to why there would be be a weight difference does make sense ("MLOK calls for more material in it's spec"), I still have a few questions about this topic:
1. Is there actually any measurable weight difference between a KeyMod and M-Lok? For example, if you took the same exact rail design, but you made one with KeyMod and the other with M-Lok, would their be any actual weight difference between the two?
2. Assuming there is in fact a weight difference... would it have any practical impact on durability? Or, in other words, would the increased amount of material used for one attachment method vs. the other potentially create stronger rails, everything else being equal?
2. Assuming there is in fact a weight difference... would it have any practical impact on durability? Or, in other words, would the increased amount of material used for one attachment method vs. the other potentially create stronger rails, everything else being equal?
Yes, M-Lok will be slightly heavier. It does call for it to.be machined thicker but it is also.more durable. The 100 cone cut that is used in keymod creates areas that are more prone to slippage and attachment pullout because there is less material and it is and angled engagement surface, whereas M-Lok gives flat on flat engagement surfaces.
The thinner edges of the keymod create built in failure points.
Some people will argue that M-Lok is thicker so that it can be used with plastic handguards but the plastic is thicker than aluminum M-Lok rails.
3rd party testing in the industry is showing that M-Lok is stronger and more suitable for duty use. This is why Colt CA went with M-lok on their new MRR.
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"3rd party testing in the industry is showing that M-Lok is stronger and more suitable for duty use"
Are the results of this testing published. If so where? What Colt Canada buys means nothing to me. Our own government has been known to buy junk. Not saying M-Lok is junk but just because Colt Canada uses it doesn't mean it is superior.
And how many of these bad KeyMod stories / rumors / testing have been centered around the magnesium (questionably a poor material choice when used with KeyMod) KMR - arguably the most popular/prevalent KeyMod rail out there next to the NSR? I have seen many conversations with KeyMod blanket generalizations concerning problems specific to a material, not necessarily the KeyMod attachment method itself. In addition to blatant installer error.
Yes, M-Lok will be slightly heavier. It does call for it to.be machined thicker but it is also.more durable. The 100 cone cut that is used in keymod creates areas that are more prone to slippage and attachment pullout because there is less material and it is and angled engagement surface, whereas M-Lok gives flat on flat engagement surfaces.
The thinner edges of the keymod create built in failure points.
Some people will argue that M-Lok is thicker so that it can be used with plastic handguards but the plastic is thicker than aluminum M-Lok rails.
3rd party testing in the industry is showing that M-Lok is stronger and more suitable for duty use. This is why Colt CA went with M-lok on their new MRR.
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Where are you getting this info to back up your data points? What is your background to be making these statements? Please include links.
556BlackRifle
02-21-16, 09:50
"3rd party testing in the industry is showing that M-Lok is stronger and more suitable for duty use"
Are the results of this testing published. If so where? What Colt Canada buys means nothing to me. Our own government has been known to buy junk. Not saying M-Lok is junk but just because Colt Canada uses it doesn't mean it is superior.
My feelings exactly.
And how many of these bad KeyMod stories / rumors / testing have been centered around the magnesium (questionably a poor material choice when used with KeyMod) KMR - arguably the most popular/prevalent KeyMod rail out there next to the NSR? I have seen many conversations with KeyMod blanket generalizations concerning problems specific to a material, not necessarily the KeyMod attachment method itself. In addition to blatant installer error.
Testify brother! You hit the nail on the head. If you remove installer error and fanboy BS from the equation, things even up. I have two NSRs and I've run them hard. I've never had anything just fall off. I've never seen any stress damage to my NSR at the connection points either. Rock solid. That said, I personally find the M-Lok more aesthetically pleasing and think it is a much simpler / user friendly design. IMO either platform will serve most users well as long as the rail is strong (good alloy) and the accessories are installed correctly.
I think in 2-3 years we will see something entirely different.
I'm sure someone will devise a new product. I don't think that it will replace M-LOK though. Magpul has a simple, effective, ascetically pleasing system. It's not a fad, it's a new paradigm in handguards.
The science is fairy straight forward. Like I noted, M-Lok uses fat on flat engagement surfaces as opposed to the tapered surfaces with Keymod (thinner at the edges). By design it is going to be more prone to pullout and loosening under hard use. Admittedly, most people are not going to run their gun hard enough to have this be an issue. For those of use that use their rifle as a tool and rely on it, keymod simply is not acceptable. If you have are decently strong you could likely rip a BCM shorty right out of a KMR.
Contact Magpul, they wanted to start making Keymod accessories (it would have been cheaper and easier) but when they tested it they weren't happy with durability so they revised and updated their MOE system to make it more user friendly and durable.
I'm probably the furthest thing from a magpul fanboy. I purposely go out of my way to avoid buying magpul, just because it is the end all be all for so many people who don't really know what good kit is. Sure they make some good stuff, but so do other manufacturers. That being said, they did it right with M-lok. The information is out there. Check out the technical specs on both. It's pretty obvious why M-lok is better.
A lot of third party testing is still underway. Once that comes out it will be pretty clear. In the mean time, there's a reason why there was a lot more M-lok at SHOT this year.
Again, Most people will probably not have an issue. If their happy with keymod, then cool. But if you're really using your rife and relying on it, keymod adds a level of uncertainty in your mounts that simply isn't acceptable.
There is a lot of good information out there from the industry and SMEs. Unfortunately, it is predominantly located on a professional forum that would probably be inappropriate to link to here.
As much as I hate to link to a gun rag, because most of them are terrible, here it goes.
http://calibremag.ca/colt-canada-mrr-the-modular-railed-rifle/
The only thing really worth worrying about it this quote:
"The decision to select M-Lok over its chief competitor, Keymod, was credited largely to M-Lok’s preference among Colt Canada’s LEO and military customers. However, additional performance metrics such as tear-off strength and ease of manufacture were also taken into account."
Again, you mention the KMR. Not a problem with KeyMod. A problem with KMR. Next?
I'd like to see you rip a properly installed BCM shorty out of an NSR.
That's yet another problem with keymod. It isn't consistent across manufacturers
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If you're happy with your keymod, cool. Just know that there is a better more stable option in M-lok. Like I said, most people probably aren't going to run their gun hard enough to matter. For professional use though, Keymod simply isn't up to snuff
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The science is fairy straight forward. Like I noted, M-Lok uses fat on flat engagement surfaces as opposed to the tapered surfaces with Keymod (thinner at the edges). By design it is going to be more prone to pullout and loosening under hard use. Admittedly, most people are not going to run their gun hard enough to have this be an issue. For those of use that use their rifle as a tool and rely on it, keymod simply is not acceptable. If you have are decently strong you could likely rip a BCM shorty right out of a KMR.
Contact Magpul, they wanted to start making Keymod accessories (it would have been cheaper and easier) but when they tested it they weren't happy with durability so they revised and updated their MOE system to make it more user friendly and durable.
I'm probably the furthest thing from a magpul fanboy. I purposely go out of my way to avoid buying magpul, just because it is the end all be all for so many people who don't really know what good kit is. Sure they make some good stuff, but so do other manufacturers. That being said, they did it right with M-lok. The information is out there. Check out the technical specs on both. It's pretty obvious why M-lok is better.
A lot of third party testing is still underway. Once that comes out it will be pretty clear. In the mean time, there's a reason why there was a lot more M-lok at SHOT this year.
Again, Most people will probably not have an issue. If their happy with keymod, then cool. But if you're really using your rife and relying on it, keymod adds a level of uncertainty in your mounts that simply isn't acceptable.
There is a lot of good information out there from the industry and SMEs. Unfortunately, it is predominantly located on a professional forum that would probably be inappropriate to link to here.
As much as I hate to link to a gun rag, because most of them are terrible, here it goes.
http://calibremag.ca/colt-canada-mrr-the-modular-railed-rifle/
The only thing really worth worrying about it this quote:
"The decision to select M-Lok over its chief competitor, Keymod, was credited largely to M-Lok’s preference among Colt Canada’s LEO and military customers. However, additional performance metrics such as tear-off strength and ease of manufacture were also taken into account."
The tone of your posts is as if you are listing facts, yet you have not provided any links to back yourself up or given up any credentials to show that you know what you are talking about. Looks like you are just regurgitating discussion that was already in this thread.
Just know that there is a better more stable option in M-lok. Like I said, most people probably aren't going to run their gun hard enough to matter. For professional use though, Keymod simply isn't up to snuff
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Yeah, no.
If you're happy with your keymod, cool. Just know that there is a better more stable option in M-lok. Like I said, most people probably aren't going to run their gun hard enough to matter. For professional use though, Keymod simply isn't up to snuff
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I don't have any Key Mod rails and really don't have any M-LOK specific rails (just a couple of MOE hand guards and 870 shotgun furniture). I am still using the old fashion KAC & DD 1913 rails on my AR's without issue or complaint so I really don't have a horse in this fight but your post is down right silly.
A simple claim that one attachment system is superior to the other without documented facts to back that up is ridiculous.
Key Mod has been around for a while and has been used by many people now and if it wasn't 'up to snuff', that would have been discovered long ago. Coming off with a statement like that without actual facts makes you look silly. It is basically just saying that what you use is best and that it's the only option if you want it to work, just because that's what you choose to run on your rifles.
Opinions like that should not be taken seriously because there are no specific incidents to back up such a claim of Key Mod failures and no proof anything like that has happened. You also failed to provide any sort of facts that M-LOK is somehow a more stable attachment method....You kind of took a little out of the Magpul post and made it your own.
The tone of your posts is as if you are listing facts, yet you have not provided any links to back yourself up or given up any credentials to show that you know what you are talking about. Looks like you are just regurgitating discussion that was aleady in this thread.
I'm not claiming to be an SME. I'm just a professional end user. Take that for what you will. The information I'm passing on has been given by industry partners and end users who are at a significantly higher level than myself.
Once again, the science is right in the engineering. All you have to do is look at the data for both mounting systems.
Both are huge steps forward but M-Lok is more stable.
If you're not willing to accept the technical specs, fine. The argument is wasted on you anyways in that case.
I went to keymod when that came out. When M-lok came out I went to that because the tech data showed it would be stronger.
Don't get butt hurt because you invested in keymod and I'm telling you it's not the best option. Be willing to accept that the alternative might be better and actually scrutinize the tech data
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stahljaeger
02-21-16, 14:50
Alright, I'm resurrecting this thread because I'm curious about this aspect of KeyMod vs. M-Lok. I believe I've heard from other places as well that M-Lok has some for sort of weight disadvantage against KeyMod, simply to due to the design differences. However, after searching around a little, I can't seem to find any real information on this. While Brahmzy's explanation as to why there would be be a weight difference does make sense ("MLOK calls for more material in it's spec"), I still have a few questions about this topic:
1. Is there actually any measurable weight difference between a KeyMod and M-Lok? For example, if you took the same exact rail design, but you made one with KeyMod and the other with M-Lok, would their be any actual weight difference between the two?
2. Assuming there is in fact a weight difference... would it have any practical impact on durability? Or, in other words, would the increased amount of material used for one attachment method vs. the other potentially create stronger rails, everything else being equal?
Looking at the exact same rail in keymod and Mlok there is a small weight difference. The MI gen3 handguards give weights for both. At a maximum of .5oz (14 grams) difference, there is no way it makes any sort of difference, it interesting at some lengths there is only .1oz (2.8 grams) difference, I guess due to the difference in how many slots fit within a given OAL. I would bet that an Mlok rail built on the LMC side of tolerances would actually be lighter than the same rail in keymod built to the MMC tolerances. I laugh every time someone mentions how much lighter keymod is.
Length. Mlok. Keymod
7.25" 6.7 oz. 6.2 oz.
9.25" 7.2 oz. 7.6 oz.
10.5" 8.4 oz. 8.3 oz.
12.625" 9.4 oz. 9.3 oz.
15" 10.8 oz. 10.3 oz.
Mlok https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=2469
Keymod https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=2470
Keymod seems to be a very emotional thing, either people cannot stand it and choose Mlok by default or they are emotionally attached to keymod and feel threatened by Mlok. Is it because keymod looks like rows of genitalia?
I'm not claiming to be an SME. I'm just a professional end user. Take that for what you will. The information I'm passing on has been given by industry partners and end users who are at a significantly higher level than myself.
Once again, the science is right in the engineering. All you have to do is look at the data for both mounting systems.
Both are huge steps forward but M-Lok is more stable.
If you're not willing to accept the technical specs, fine. The argument is wasted on you anyways in that case.
I went to keymod when that came out. When M-lok came out I went to that because the tech data showed it would be stronger.
Don't get butt hurt because you invested in keymod and I'm telling you it's not the best option. Be willing to accept that the alternative might be better and actually scrutinize the tech data
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Far from butt hurt. Just pointing out you're not in your lane and the info you're spewing should be taken as just that.
Far from butt hurt. Just pointing out you're not in your lane and the info you're spewing should be taken as just that.
Dude, whayever, I get it. I made a choice for M-lok based on readily available technical data, info directly from industry partners who have done the testing, and first hand accounts of it failing under duty conditions.
I understand being skeptical because the info you're getting from me is second hand, and you don't know the people I got it from. Fine.
I'm doing more with my rifles than just "running them hard" at the range. I need to rely on my shit to work because it makes a difference in whether or not I got home at the end of the night. I'm not willing to take the risk with keymod.
Like I've said several times, most people will probably not put their rifles through the abuse to cause a failure. Some will, and it won't have to be outside the range.
If you're not counting on your shit to get you home then rock in with keymod if that's what you like. But, I'm telling you, if you scrutinize the specs it's obvious where the shortcomings are with keymod in relation to m-lok.
I don't get attached to one method or another. If something better comes out I'll dump M-lok and go to that.
I'll never go back to 1913. It's too heavy and bulky and to me, it makes a difference.
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That's yet another problem with keymod. It isn't consistent across manufacturers
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The same can be said for M-Lok. I've seen M-Lok handguards with the slots cut too wide which allows the nuts to overcam and dig into the sides. Plus, it was from one of the more prominent manufacturers.
The point is, you can't use variances among third party manufacturers as a measuring stick on one standard versus another. Instead, it shows who can read a drawing and manufacture something that has already been designed, and who has the best QC or customer service to fix/replace a bad part.
No horse in this race - we support both standards and my personal opinion is that either one works just fine as long as you're not a bubba-gunsmith.
Find ManBearPig!
02-21-16, 15:15
Looking at the exact same rail in keymod and Mlok there is a small weight difference. The MI gen3 handguards give weights for both. At a maximum of .5oz (14 grams) difference, there is no way it makes any sort of difference, it interesting at some lengths there is only .1oz (2.8 grams) difference, I guess due to the difference in how many slots fit within a given OAL. I would bet that an Mlok rail built on the LMC side of tolerances would actually be lighter than the same rail in keymod built to the MMC tolerances. I laugh every time someone mentions how much lighter keymod is.
Length. Mlok. Keymod
7.25" 6.7 oz. 6.2 oz.
9.25" 7.2 oz. 7.6 oz.
10.5" 8.4 oz. 8.3 oz.
12.625" 9.4 oz. 9.3 oz.
15" 10.8 oz. 10.3 oz.
Mlok https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=2469
Keymod https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=2470
Keymod seems to be a very emotional thing, either people cannot stand it and choose Mlok by default or they are emotionally attached to keymod and feel threatened by Mlok. Is it because keymod looks like rows of genitalia?
O.k, those are very small differences. Then again, you should look at some of the lengths people will go to reduce weight. If people are willing to pay $60 for a titanium KMR barrel nut, just to save .7 ounces, I assume there will be some people who care about these weight differences enough to base their choice of rail attachment system off of it.
That said, I personally am not going to let a few fractions of an ounce dictate which system I use. If the difference weight wise between KeyMod and M-Lok is really that small, then it seems to be something not even worth thinking about in practice.
The same can be said for M-Lok. I've seen M-Lok handguards with the slots cut too wide which allows the nuts to overcam and dig into the sides. Plus, it was from one of the more prominent manufacturers.
The point is, you can't use variances among third party manufacturers as a measuring stick on one standard versus another. Instead, it shows who can read a drawing and manufacture something that has already been designed, and who has the best QC or customer service to fix/replace a bad part.
No horse in this race - we support both standards and my personal opinion is that either one works just fine as long as you're not a bubba-gunsmith.
I don't think your opinion really matters, this thread is all about the minutia... Real world functionality is apparently irrelevant.
The MI rails are just one Manu. Most others, there is a significant weight diff. between the two. Regardless, this has been discussed adnauseum both here and TOS.
stahljaeger
02-21-16, 16:04
I just looked at 8 different rails that SLR offers in both KM and Mlok (they have tons of different lengths so I only ended up checking a fraction before I quit). KM rails averaged .44oz (12 grams) lighter. The spread was from the KM rail being .7oz heavier (11" rail) to 1.3 oz lighter (16" rail).
My conclusion is that the main difference is the greater difficulty in optimally fitting the longer Mlok slots.
A purpose built keymod rail (not from an extrusion meant for building KM and Mlok) may be able to be built with a thinner wall thickness and be in spec and thus be lighter. In this case it would definitely be a weaker rail, although attachment strength wouldn't be less than a thicker keymod rail (per my understanding of the tapered mounting interface) and if it is enough weaker to matter depends on usage. This is just my subjective engineering judgement (perhaps based on faulty understanding of KM) as I don't have engineering drawings for either method to do objective analysis.
When you get into 308, the weight diff is bigger. I think there's almost a 3-4oz diff between MLOK and KeyMod in MEGA's various offerings of both. If it's a carried weapon, that all adds up - especially hanging way out in front.
That said, I dropped my semi-mono MEGA KeyMod upper setup for an MLOK rail setup to save weight, lol.
stahljaeger
02-21-16, 17:15
When you get into 308, the weight diff is bigger. I think there's almost a 3-4oz diff between MLOK and KeyMod in MEGA's various offerings of both. If it's a carried weapon, that all adds up - especially hanging way out in front.
I agree 3-4 oz is significant. I just checked Mega's site and they only have weights for their proprietary system and KM, except for the wedgelock handguard where the KM and Mlok are suspiciously exactly the same to the hundredth of an oz for all lengths.
Off topic, but I will no longer buy a rail, barrel, light, optic or mount where the manufacturer can't be bothered to list the weight, especially when they are touting how lightweight it is. The same with barrels and port size.
Brahmzy- not saying you are wrong or trying to call you out. I just wanted to see if the slot spacing was terrible or something to generate such a difference and was annoyed that Mega didn't list weights for most Mlok handguards.
No worries. The reason I got when I asked (had to call 2 different distributors and have them pull out product and weigh them on a scale, lol) was that they're redoing their whole website, so why waste the time to include a bunch of weights n stuff. Poor excuse IMO. And I'm a ginormous MEGA fan.
There's also 2 other major manus that very clearly post very incorrect weights on their sites. Not a fan when that happens. Straight up returned some stuff when it came out quite a bit heavier than advertised. Misleading is misleading.
Not that hard to do. Grab item including ALL hardware, place on calibrated scale. Take note of weight. Post correct weight on product page. Some manus do it great, even if they're not the lightest on said item.
Looking at the exact same rail in keymod and Mlok there is a small weight difference. The MI gen3 handguards give weights for both. At a maximum of .5oz (14 grams) difference, there is no way it makes any sort of difference, it interesting at some lengths there is only .1oz (2.8 grams) difference, I guess due to the difference in how many slots fit within a given OAL. I would bet that an Mlok rail built on the LMC side of tolerances would actually be lighter than the same rail in keymod built to the MMC tolerances. I laugh every time someone mentions how much lighter keymod is.
Length. Mlok. Keymod
7.25" 6.7 oz. 6.2 oz.
9.25" 7.2 oz. 7.6 oz.
10.5" 8.4 oz. 8.3 oz.
12.625" 9.4 oz. 9.3 oz.
15" 10.8 oz. 10.3 oz.
Mlok https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=2469
Keymod https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=2470
Keymod seems to be a very emotional thing, either people cannot stand it and choose Mlok by default or they are emotionally attached to keymod and feel threatened by Mlok. Is it because keymod looks like rows of genitalia?
You are comparing the same manufacturers products (which can all be basically the same weight as the rail design is all the same). What you have to do is compare that companies rail (in MLOK) against the BCM KMR. The 15" KMR is 8.1 ounces. While 3 ounces isn't the end of the world, all those ounces start to stack up and instead of having a 5LBS rifle you have a 6LBS rifle.
C4
Midwest Industries
02-23-16, 09:22
You are comparing the same manufacturers products (which can all be basically the same weight as the rail design is all the same). What you have to do is compare that companies rail (in MLOK) against the BCM KMR. The 15" KMR is 8.1 ounces.
C4
make sure you dont forget mounting hardware . Its not 5.9 different. M lok is typically a few grams heavier than the same exact part in Key Mod.
Troy
MI
make sure you dont forget mounting hardware . Its not 5.9 different. M lok is typically a few grams heavier than the same exact part in Key Mod.
Troy
MI
Right you are! Looked at the wrong number and have updated my post.
C4
make sure you dont forget mounting hardware . Its not 5.9 different. M lok is typically a few grams heavier than the same exact part in Key Mod.
Troy
MI
What, no free lunch?
What, no free lunch?
Ha...Indeed. It's #10 screws instead of #8 and M-LOK doesn't have .020" edges. You may end up at an ounce or so difference when comparing apples to apples with a reasonable number of accessories. KeyMod saves an even larger amount of weight when your stuff is on the ground instead of on the rifle, however. :-) Sorry, couldn't resist.
Seriously, though...there is room to take out weight on almost anything, but at a certain point, strength of the rail itself becomes a factor, deflection under load, etc....which may or may not be a big decision concern depending on application.
I initially thought the MI rails would be too flexible based on their weight, but I have been pleasantly surprised with their rigidity. There are a lot of varying degrees of performance in deflection resistance and rigidity from various other makers.
So yes, there are a bunch of different rail designs out there depending on where you want to be on the robustness vs weight spectrum, and in 6061 and 7075 to further complicate the matter, executed with various degrees of finesse and actual engineering principles. There is rarely, however, as djegators indicated, any free lunch.
We engineers earn our paycheck in finding the optimum design that satisfies all the requirements. There are compromises at every step of the process
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We engineers earn our paycheck in finding the optimum design that satisfies all the requirements. There are compromises at every step of the process
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Over engineered is under engineered.
mebiuspower
03-01-16, 18:21
GIBBZ Arms Modular Attachment (GAMA) Goes After Magpul’s M-Lok Patent
http://soldiersystems.net/2016/03/01/gibbz-arms-modular-attachment-gama-goes-after-magpuls-m-lok-patent/?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb189/thomas-80/popcorn.gif
Well played by Gibbz. This should be interesting.
No worries. Full response likely tomorrow. For tonight, there is no IP at all currently issued to Gibbz, and all M-LOK licensees are protected under our ISSUED utility patent.
More to follow, but here is the initial response:
It has come to our attention that Gibbz Arms claims to have a utility patent application pending for an accessory attachment system for firearms, which they refer to as the “GAMA” system, and that they have recently issued a press release implying that companies that use the M-LOK system will need to pay for a license. However, we also note that this patent application wasn’t filed until September of 2015, which was long after Magpul filed for and obtained its own utility patents for the M-LOK system, and long after Magpul released its own M-LOK products to the market. Gibbz Arms appears be trying to impermissibly backdate its untimely utility patent application based on a prior design patent application that Gibbz filed in early 2013 for an ornamental design directed to a left-handed T-Nut. This 2013 design patent application was not publicly available until earlier this year.
Magpul expects that this attempted back-dating will be unsuccessful over the long run, and that Gibbz Arms will not be able to establish that its utility patent application was timely filed. The Gibbz utility patent filing includes broad proposed claims directed towards functions that are outside the scope of what is disclosed in its prior application for an ornamental design. Regardless, the pending claims in this utility application should not be assumed to be granted—the merits of the patent still need to be determined by the U.S. Patent &Trademark Office. Magpul fully expects that Gibbz Arms will not be successful in obtaining and maintaining a valid utility patent that will pose a concern for users of the M-LOK system. Magpul is also committed to taking whatever action is necessary, including challenges before the Patent & Trademark Office and in Federal District Court, to ensure that users of the M-LOK system continue to have complete freedom to operate without interference from, or the need to obtain a license demanded by, Gibbz Arms.
The Magpul SLEDGE droppeth down.
wildcard600
03-01-16, 20:15
Gibbz better have an ace up their sleeve with some hard evidence to prove they had developed their system and filed before Magpul. Seems like a rather ballsy and possibly expensive legal situation to make a claim like this with the submitted documentation shown in the posted link.
Gibbz better have an ace up their sleeve with some hard evidence to prove they had developed their system and filed before Magpul. Seems like a rather ballsy and possibly expensive legal situation to make a claim like this with the submitted documentation shown in the posted link.
It was in the letter they sent out but not in the attached letter on soldier systems:
"The GAMA System has multiple pending patent applications covering its technology and the priority date of these multiple pending patent applications predates patents and/or similar designs by more than a year, a copy of one of which is attached hereto for your reference as Exhibit “A”. "
wildcard600
03-01-16, 20:38
It was in the letter they sent out but not in the attached letter on soldier systems:
"The GAMA System has multiple pending patent applications covering its technology and the priority date of these multiple pending patent applications predates patents and/or similar designs by more than a year, a copy of one of which is attached hereto for your reference as Exhibit “A”. "
Is that in reference to the 2013 submitted application ?
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/WEAPON_HANDGUARD_Design_Drawings.pdf
I don't know much about how patent law works, but it really doesn't resemble M-lok to me other than being a slot with a locking nut. More like an advancement of the MOE attachment system.
DreadPirateMoyer
03-01-16, 20:40
Patent trolling from a no-name company going out on a limb to try and make a buck from a bigger company that has done a lot to support us over the years, nothing more. Magpul will win.
Patent trolling from a no-name company going out on a limb to try and make a buck from a bigger company that has done a lot to support us over the years, nothing more. Magpul will win.
I have no skin in the game and own both kmod and mlok.
That being said, I would caution your rhetoric. The patent system is one of the things that has made and makes the United States the greatest country in the world. We have very little information about all of this and it will be a very slow roll. I have seen patent cases go the complete opposite of what was assumed at the beginning of the process.
SomeOtherGuy
03-01-16, 20:59
That being said, I would caution your rhetoric. The patent system is one of the things that has made and makes the United States the greatest country in the world. We have very little information about all of this and it will be a very slow roll. I have seen patent cases go the complete opposite of what was assumed at the beginning of the process.
Historically the patent system has been a great idea, but almost everyone close to the system agrees that it isn't working well right now. Regardless of the merits for MLOK vs. Gibbz, in many other contexts there are tons and TONS of patent trolls, who are useless parasites.
I am not calling Gibbz a patent troll. Even making assumptions against them they wouldn't quite fit the definition.
I looked briefly at the PDFs posted and it looks like Gibbz maybe had some similar ideas. I can't tell which of their drawings date to 2013 and which are more recent. Even if they had similar ideas in 2013, that doesn't mean Magpul copied them, nor that Gibbz should or will get a patent on their ideas. There are a lot of important facts that most of us don't know yet. In any event, I don't think this tarnishes MLOK at all, and I don't expect this to be more than a nuisance for Magpul and the MLOK licensees.
Looks like more third party claims are rolling in. China North/South Industries is now pondering suing Magpul for "use of American Ingenuity" after their "MRok" line of Free Float rails is not selling very well off ebay.
Torquetard
03-03-16, 16:39
I sure hope i dont dent my fragile keymod by gripping the rail too tight :rolleyes:
wildcard600
03-03-16, 18:06
Looks like more third party claims are rolling in. China North/South Industries is now pondering suing Magpul for "use of American Ingenuity" after their "MRok" line of Flee Froat lairs is not selling very well off ebay.
Fixed.
Is the Gibbz vs Magpul patent case still going on?
This report is pretty conclusive with regards to M-LOK's superiority over KeyMod:
• Repeatability
– M-LOKTM achieved a 73% improvement in average POA shift over KeyModTM.
• Endurance
– KeyModTM and M-LOKTM system performance exceeded cyclic load test conditions.
• Rough Handling
– KeyModTM and M-LOKTM system performance exceeded cyclic load test conditions.
• Drop test
– 100% of M-LOKTM accessories remained attached.
• 1/3 M-LOKTM accessories remained in-place.
• 2/3 M-LOKTM accessories slid rearwards but remained secure.
– 33% of KeyModTM accessories remained attached.
• 1/3 KeyModTM accessories remained attached, but severely damaged handguard.
• 2/3 KeyModTM accessories completely detached.
• Failure Load
– Average M-LOKTM test failure load over 3 times greater than average KeyModTM system
failure load.
– All KeyModTM failures occurred at the interface between the handguard and accessory rail.
– All M-LOKTM system tests failed at weapon light mount or mount to accessory rail interface.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3k5QLIgMILLekg2Rll5U1FSdkE/view
Interesting write up of the SOCOM tests - http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/05/details-on-the-ussocom-sponsored-keymod-vs-m-lok-test-conducted-at-nswc-crane/
Is the Gibbz vs Magpul patent case still going on?
December 14, 2016 — Magpul Industries Corp. announced today that has settled its patent infringement lawsuit against Gibbens Engineering Group, LLC, a/k/a Gibbz Arms, which was pending in the United States District Court for the Western District of Texas.
Magpul’s initial complaint asserted that Gibbz Arms infringed three Magpul utility patents by selling the “Gibbz Arms Modular Attachment (GAMA) System.” Magpul’s amended complaint reasserted those utility patents and sought a preemptive declaration that Magpul’s M-LOK® system did not infringe any Gibbz Arms patents. Gibbz Arms’ answer to Magpul’s amended complaint asserted as a defense that the GAMA System did not infringe Magpul’s patents.
The companies settled their dispute on confidential and mutually agreeable terms. Under the terms of the settlement, Gibbz Arms agreed to assign patent rights related to the dispute to Magpul. Adopters and licensees of Magpul’s M-LOK® system continue to have complete freedom to operate without interference, and M-LOK adoption will continue to be available via free license to interested parties.
http://soldiersystems.net/2016/12/14/magpul-and-gibbz-arms-settle-patent-infringement-lawsuit/
Is the Gibbz vs Magpul patent case still going on?
No, it is not. M-LOK's granted utility patents were valid and were unaffected by the case.
http://soldiersystems.net/2016/12/14/magpul-and-gibbz-arms-settle-patent-infringement-lawsuit/#comments
556BlackRifle
05-05-17, 11:34
Interesting write up of the SOCOM tests - http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/05/details-on-the-ussocom-sponsored-keymod-vs-m-lok-test-conducted-at-nswc-crane/
Very interesting. Thanks for posting the link!
Of course it is cause magpul.
It takes a little longer to mount but it is more repeatable.
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Spin Drift
05-05-17, 11:53
Very cool info, thanks.
Will keymod go away like HD DVDs did when bluray won the platform war? Probably not but can't argue the results of this.
Maybe. Quad rails are still around though.
Will keymod go away like HD DVDs did when bluray won the platform war? Probably not but can't argue the results of this.
Interesting write up of the SOCOM tests - http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/05/details-on-the-ussocom-sponsored-keymod-vs-m-lok-test-conducted-at-nswc-crane/
Thanks for posting. Confirmed what I thought
Wasn't the HDDVD battle resolved when Disney adopted blue ray? I kind of see .mil as the Disney of this equation.
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SeriousStudent
05-05-17, 18:58
Already posted in this existing thread earlier today:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?178699-Magpul-MLOK-vs-Keymod/page8
I'm going to merge the threads. Thanks.
Interesting write up of the SOCOM tests - http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/05/details-on-the-ussocom-sponsored-keymod-vs-m-lok-test-conducted-at-nswc-crane/
Great article - simply confirming what I have experienced both first hand and witnessed in many a class setting.
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