View Full Version : Beretta M9 slide problems
From the latest issue of PS Magazine. Evidently an M9 slide broke recently and hit the shooter, although no mention is made of any injuries sustained. For those knowlegable, I take it that this is fairly rare nowadays?
http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss158/5757_photos/Scan_zpsy6lhznui.jpg (http://s571.photobucket.com/user/5757_photos/media/Scan_zpsy6lhznui.jpg.html)
Old news. Next slide.
http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx319/jayjaypunisher/068.jpg
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/1858/z92slide4.jpg
Looks like that one had the MWO applied to it.
Well, I haven't heard of anything like this happening recently but I would certainly say it's not outside the realm of possibility. Contrary to common beliefs, slide separation failures (the actual term used in military references) can and still do exist. It's not common but in the years I was with AFSOC, I would say I can recall of at least 6 slides that were cracked if not completely broken. The thin sections of the slide are the weak areas and no idea why it always happens, in every cracked or broken slide I've seen, it's been on the left hand side right where the "PB" stamp is and it's been that way 100% of the time, always in that same spot. Now cracked and broken locking blocks was a VERY different story. Rare was the class that we didn't find at least one locking block that was cracked. We kept a .50 caliber ammo can in the repair shop that would eventually go to Dr. Mo that was filled about half full with nothing but broken and cracked locking blocks!
Now the slide "should" have not flown back off and hit the shooter. The modifications made years ago and today, every M9 comes with the larger head on the hammer pin and milled slot under the slide should prevent that from happening. When this problem of slide separation failures first came to light, this was introduced not to really correct the problem but to keep from injuring the shooter when it does happen. Now when I say the slide "should" have not came off, you got to keep in mind that the Air Force is "keeper of the weird shit!" During one weapons inspection for LRS, I noticed that there was an M9 that looked a little off that caught my eye. The finish was more shiny and then I noticed the front of the trigger guard wasn't the hooked squared off trigger guard we see on Beretta pistols today. This one had the older style rounded trigger guard! Now THAT was an old pistol! If I had to make a guess, it may go back to the days of the M9 trials before they were adopted since the Air Force did a lot of testing for those trails and this may very well have been one of those pistols! I wish I would have taken a picture of that one! :( But in any case, this would be an example of an M9 that didn't have the larger head on the hammer pin. If one of these old pistols are still out there with a small pin head installed, it is entirely possible that this event may have taken place.
Like I said, I haven't heard of anything recently, but knowing what I do about the M9 and based on the possibility of older style pistols still being out there somewhere, I would have to say this story is entirely plausible.
Holy Old News Batman.....
Did the OP not notice that the image refers to a 1989 MOW??
The problem was identified a long time ago and fixed.
USMC_Anglico
01-09-16, 18:25
Yes there are still M9's out there that haven't had the MWO......
Heh...what's that old saying..."youre not a real SEAL until you've tasted Italian steel".
Yes there are still M9's out there that haven't had the MWO......
I kind of doubt it.
Holy Old News Batman.....
Did the OP not notice that the image refers to a 1989 MOW??
The problem was identified a long time ago and fixed.
That article is from the January 2016 issue...
For really old neglected military M9s, right.
No modern commercial or LEO model has this issue.
I was issued a used Beretta ten years ago. I still have it. Its entirely possible there are guns that old still in circulation.
I think the whole point of the notice was that there may be some pretty old M9's in the system that fell through the cracks when the MWO was in effect.
KalashniKEV
01-10-16, 10:53
I was issued a used Beretta ten years ago. I still have it. Its entirely possible there are guns that old still in circulation.
MWO = Modification Work Order
All the F-slides got swapped for FS-type back in the 80's.
Apparently one lonely-and-forgotten M9 that fell behind a desk in the National Guard somewhere didn't have the MWO applied.
Maybe there's another?
Once issued, weapons that fill an MTOE or TDA authorization spot/slot are rarely (if ever) demilitarized, especially in outfits that rarely shoot. There's often no need to shoot some weapons, and they languish in patient disuse until maybe (rarely) someone deploys as a Worldwide Individual Augment or volunteer.
Small units and posts (especially in the combat service support, Guard, and Reserve) where folks rarely shoot, firearms maintenance personnel are rare, and other things take priority often lead to situations where equipment (not just M9s) often don't get Modification Work Orders applied.
Nature of the beast when you consider the force has fluctuated in strength and deployments from 1989 (and the post Desert Storm drawdown) to the 2001-2008 surge, to the current drawdown.
Thanks, very interesting and it makes sense.
USMC_Anglico
01-10-16, 16:09
Once issued, weapons that fill an MTOE or TDA authorization spot/slot are rarely (if ever) demilitarized, especially in outfits that rarely shoot. There's often no need to shoot some weapons, and they languish in patient disuse until maybe (rarely) someone deploys as a Worldwide Individual Augment or volunteer.
Small units and posts (especially in the combat service support, Guard, and Reserve) where folks rarely shoot, firearms maintenance personnel are rare, and other things take priority often lead to situations where equipment (not just M9s) often don't get Modification Work Orders applied.
Nature of the beast when you consider the force has fluctuated in strength and deployments from 1989 (and the post Desert Storm drawdown) to the 2001-2008 surge, to the current drawdown.
Bingo. I saw this in PS and talked with my unit armorer who is also an AGR in the AMSA shop. He confirmed this.
I got in the KY National Guard (Engineers) in Dec. '95 after being on active duty in Germany. Around then was when my Guard unit got M9s, (we didn't get M16A2s to replace our A1s till '97, brand new FNs) a full 10 years after being adopted by Uncle Sam. I missed getting to qualify on a 1911 by one stinking year. It would have been cool to say that is all. Our M9s were brand spanking new. I was in S4 and had to help teach the transition class. Me and a medic that was on active duty in Desert Storm were the only ones that had ever shot a Beretta before. Everyone knew nothing but the 1911. It went smoothly though.
Later, while talking to the Armorer, I found out we had a mix of M1911A1s and older M1911s. None had ever been arsenal rebuilt it sounded like cause he described the 1911s as still having blued, not parkerized, finishes.
I could easily see a few M9s here and there not getting the FS upgrade. Stuff gets forgotten, it happens.
Mars attacks...
01-10-16, 16:30
A friend of mine was security forces at Hurlburt, AFB. He got out only in the last few years and he says they had several slides fail on them. He figured it was just from fatigue, but as I read this now I see why. He wasn't aware this was supposed to be taken care of.
KalashniKEV
01-10-16, 16:47
He wasn't aware this was supposed to be taken care of.
FS slides will fail too. See Post #2.
It's just a matter of "is the rear piece going to leave the frame."
Usually shit like this gets uncovered during Change of Command inventories.
The incoming Commander will ask, "Have all relevant MWOs been applied to this equipment?"
And the outgoing Commander will say, "Uhhhh, yeah..." while looking at the S4/Supply Sergeant/ whoever with confusion and uncertainty.
If I'm signing for a book of property, it better be right.
Usually shit like this gets uncovered during Change of Command inventories.
The incoming Commander will ask, "Have all relevant MWOs been applied to this equipment?"
And the outgoing Commander will say, "Uhhhh, yeah..." while looking at the S4/Supply Sergeant/ whoever with confusion and uncertainty.
If I'm signing for a book of property, it better be right.
I agree, but with the variety of stuff a commander signs for nowadays you might never know.
In one 6-week block of time when I left Haiti back in the old days we went from legacy radios I'd worked with for over 20 years (big knobs, Fisher-Price instructions in raised letters painted white) to stuff I couldn't even switch on (keypads and little-bitty screens). I couldn't tell if they were new or stuff that had been fielded for the last ten years. I hadn't ever seen the base operator's manual, let alone any -20s (or higher) or MWO notices.
That's just basic line radios -- add vehicles and more complex shit and who would know?
I take it that this is a design flaw inherent to the 92 design?
If people changed their damn recoil springs as often as they should, and also change the locking block, most of this stuff wouldn't happen.
Uncle Sam originally spec'ed M9 competitors to each last at least 5,000 rounds -- that's it.
Individual Soldiers do NOT change the springs or locking blocks on individual pistols -- but there's also no system to ensure that each round is counted and documented, either.
When I was Corp of Engineers. I helped create a Maintenance program App to help armorers but a contractor took over my reserve augmentation job and he threw my program away.
WIMMS. Weapons Inventory Maintenance Management System.
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...Our M9s were brand spanking new...
I was a Lieutenant in a USAF unit in FL in the mid-late 1980s and one day my armory called and said I needed to come see something. When I showed up there were two wooden crates on the floor filled with brand new M9s! It was like Christmas.
They were all numbered with sequential serial numbers and as I recall there were just under 400 handguns in the crates. These were the new replacements for our old and tired S&W M15 38 Special revolvers and gave us a marked increase in available firepower.
Edmo
Uncle Sam originally spec'ed M9 competitors to each last at least 5,000 rounds -- that's it.
Individual Soldiers do NOT change the springs or locking blocks on individual pistols -- but there's also no system to ensure that each round is counted and documented, either.
That is what I have repeatedly heard from at this website (by others) and on other website forums.
I've also seen a post from one guy claiming that he saw soldiers using the M9 to knock in tent stakes into the ground.... And they wonder why the gun doesn't work.
I've owned a TON of different firearms. The 92FS is personally my favorite platform to shoot. People look at me like I am crazy when I say that sometimes. But too many people assume that slides are breaking left and right and still hitting people in the face. The same stories are told, like 30 years later.
Change the recoil springs and trigger return springs - and you shouldn't really have any issues.
You can with a privately-owned weapon. You can't if it's Uncle Sam's.
I understand that. But, it's the lack of maintenance that causes the problems they do have.
crusader377
01-11-16, 22:19
The Beretta 92 slide problems is one of the most over exaggerated problems in modern handgun history. To my understanding there were under a dozen problem pistols which were all early production pistols in the mid to late 1980s. This problem was corrected over 25 years ago. Claiming that the Beretta is poor designed pistol based on this exceedingly rare and fully corrected issue is just has intellectually dishonest as claiming the Glock is an unsafe gun because some morons manage to shoot themselves in the leg while drawing the pistol.
I think most morons that shoot themselves with Glocks do it while attempting to field strip it. Its why the M&P has a sear deactivation lever.
USMC_Anglico
01-12-16, 05:26
FS slides will fail too. See Post #2.
It's just a matter of "is the rear piece going to leave the frame."
Usually shit like this gets uncovered during Change of Command inventories.
The incoming Commander will ask, "Have all relevant MWOs been applied to this equipment?"
And the outgoing Commander will say, "Uhhhh, yeah..." while looking at the S4/Supply Sergeant/ whoever with confusion and uncertainty.
If I'm signing for a book of property, it better be right.
It also comes down to funding. We just did a CoC inventory and I spent a lot of time with our armorer/AGR AMSA guy. He is great, tries to jump on all the MWO's for our weapons as soon as they come out. Problem is we fall under USASOC for some equipment requirements and the rest is big Army. He had the latest SAW MWO turned down for purchase, but we have the lightweight M240's all up to date. Our M4's are getting ambi cotrols, but not the geisselle trigger's. It's all up to layers above reality as to how and who gets $ for what MWO's. Eventually it should all get done, it's just how long. Hopefully it doesn't fall through the cracks while the weapons are waiting.....
Hmmm ugh
...I hated the Coc inventory as I was the guy with the scanner gun checking property sheets and who was in control of what.
Thanks for bringing up nightmares.
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The Beretta 92 slide problems is one of the most over exaggerated problems in modern handgun history. To my understanding there were under a dozen problem pistols which were all early production pistols in the mid to late 1980s. This problem was corrected over 25 years ago. Claiming that the Beretta is poor designed pistol based on this exceedingly rare and fully corrected issue is just has intellectually dishonest as claiming the Glock is an unsafe gun because some morons manage to shoot themselves in the leg while drawing the pistol.
I still meet so called experts that "knows" someone or "personally saw someone hit in the face with a slide."
Geeze...
It was my friends baby sitters mommas boyfriend younger brother who is a ranger down at Pendleton...he swore that hr saw one break.
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lawusmc0844
01-12-16, 10:51
Lol but at the same time this "my friends friend" BS is Fing old
I only got issued M9s for pistol qual and the CMC course. Seeing as how beat to shit all the M9s I've gotten, I wasn't surprised when the locking block on one broke during range week. Fortunately it wasn't qual day so I just went back to the armory at the end of the day and had a new mismatched locking block that worked the next.
It was my friends baby sitters mommas boyfriend younger brother who is a ranger down at Pendleton...he swore that hr saw one break.
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Hmm, never met that guy. However, I AM the guy that has personally seen it with my own two eyes, replaced the parts and entered my name on the SFMIS entry of multiple occasions of slides cracked and broken on M9 pistols. This was between 2005 to 2007 and again later in 2009 to 2011 when I was working at the combat arms range at Hurlburt Field, Florida. Yeah, a little more recent than 25 years ago so no, this problem does still occur. It's not as common as other parts breaking (locking blocks being the big one) but it does happen.
Yes it does....all kiddings aside.....
Maintenance schedules are crap...
I had a Coc inventory where I was laughed off in finding the status on my units m9s.
I'll always remember the blowhard Col. that told me it wasn't a high priority.
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