Bolt hold open - useful or not?

[gjj]

There is a very well known trainer that is very pro-AK47. He has quite a following. He claims that the last round bolt hold open is an overrated feature on a fighting rifle. He says that in real combat with AR style weapons, many people don't even notice that the bolt has locked back. The shooter keeps trying to pull the trigger with no result. His logic is that this makes it an unnecessary feature.

This does not pass the B.S. test for me. It seems like an effort to try to justify a weakness in the weapon system that the guy likes. The lack of a BHO to me seems HUGE. I can feel when my AR has locked back and I have never tried to pull the trigger on a locked back bolt. However, I have not been in combat.

For any of you that have been in combat or done police work, what do you think?

(I don't hate AKs. I actually like them. But, to me, they do not compare to a good AR15).

[markm]

I agree that in a chaotic environment you won't always feel the bolt lock back. I've not felt the lock back a few times when the training/drill/shooting was intense.

That said, it's still faster to empty gun reload an AR than an AK in my opinion. Although I did see a slick Russian empty gun reload technique that would be almost as fast.

[Iraqgunz]

For someone with no experience and training maybe. Otherwise I have yet to see those with experience actually do that. It all comes down to training.

[toddackerman]

It's much easier to hit a bolt release than to actuate a charging handle. Plus when a bolt loks open on any weapons system you can immediately visualize or feel (in the dark) that you are out of ammo. A system that leaves the bolt closed on the last round might still have a round in the chamber, or it may be empty. My point is you don't know for sure.

[subzero]

Necessary? No.

Useful? Yes.

Overrated? Perhaps.

Perhaps the "don't feel the gun locking open" issue is one that can be overcome with training and familiarity with the weapon. Perhaps not. Regardless, it's hard to argue with a timer and from what I've seen, AR reloads consistently outpace AK reloads. There are a couple of reasons why, but I think it's hard to discount the fact that an AR gives you 2 clues when it's empty instead of the 1 you get from an AK.


It seems like an effort to try to justify a weakness in the weapon system that the guy likes.

Nail on the head. Although by favoring a bolt hold open, am I guilty of the same thing in reverse? Probably. I like to think I'm intellectually honest enough for that not to be true, but it can't be discounted.

[gjj]

Ackerman hit the nail on the head. With the AK, you have one clue it is empty. The gun makes a click. You can not look at your gun and tell if it is ready to fire. From a psychological standpoint it is not a good thing to point your weapon and not have it go bang. It is essentially a failure.

With the AR, most of the time, you can feel it is empty by the bolt lock back. Also, you can visually see the gun is empty.

[Iraqgunz]

Would the initials of this popular instructor happen to be G.S?

[Jay Cunningham]

I can tell you that a trainer with the initials LAV feels the same way.

[Blackwater]

Different people respond different ways to conflict. This is why we train to remove the inherent tendency to shit all over one's self.
Given enough training, you'd be surprised how quickly one reacts to a bolt being held open during a exercise and more so, being able to tell the difference between a bolt hold open or malfunction, failure to cycle. Train enough and you can tell the difference as it becomes instinctual.

I'll add, the same argument has been made for second strike capability in a handgun, stating the operator will repeatedly try to pull the trigger on a light primer strike. Nonsense.

The one constant is: One's tendency is to revert to their level of training, or lack there of.

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

I heard LAV say the same thing at a carbine course. He seemed to float between useless/potentially problematic and overrated.

GHB

[1 Source]

G-3 no BHO
MP5 no BHO (Most varients)
Fal some with no BHO
AK series and clones, no BHO

The BHO is a usefull feature when you need to lock the bolt back but other than that it is just not that big a deal with most systems.

It is a training issue and the BHO isnt going to make or break your gunfight either way.

I am a Suarez staff instructor and a Combat vet BTW (OIF) :D

[dhrith]

BHO does two things for me,

Allows me to let RSO's feel warm and fuzzy inside

and

Cool the weapon quicker.

Other then that it really doesn't matter one wit to me, I can take it or leave it as the weapon system offers. Train with what you have and accept it, seems to me people spend alot of time fighting what they've got instead of training with what they've got. No weapon is everything to everyone. I'm probably quite biased though, most of my training for the past 18 months or so has been focusing much more on the ak and galil then my ar so take that for what it's worth.



"I can feel when my AR has locked back and I have never tried to pull the trigger on a locked back bolt. "

-Then you just haven't been shooting enough. ;) I've seen it with some pretty high speed guys, and not even in very stressed situations.

[PRGGodfather]

Preferences are just that... likes and dislikes.

In the end -- you gotta work with it, or around it.

[subzero]

G-3 no BHO
MP5 no BHO (Most varients)
Fal some with no BHO
AK series and clones, no BHO

The BHO is a useful feature when you need to lock the bolt back but other than that it is just not that big a deal with most systems.

I think that argument has a bit of red herring in it.

So guns designed before (roughly, I'm not trying to be a historian here) the AR don't have a BHO. How many contemporary assault rifles are being designed and built without BHO devices? I'm sure there are some, but AFAIK the SCAR, ACR, G36, XM8 etc. all have a BHO device. Why is that? Because it's useless and overrated, or because the people designing the rifles listed above didn't think to put a BHO in or couldn't figure out a good/easy way to integrate the feature*?

One could argue that many assault rifles designed within the last decade or two are capitalizing on many users familiarity with a BHO of an AR and are trying to incorporate it. To me, that's evidence of how useful and/or necessary the device is.

But that's just me.


ETA: not trying to say the AR was the first rifle to hold the bolt back (again, I'm no historian), just that it is the contemporary standard in this particular debate.

[AMMOTECH]

I think that argument has a bit of red herring in it.

So guns designed before (roughly, I'm not trying to be a historian here) the AR don't have a BHO.

The M1 will stay locked to the rear after the last round. It will unlock when you load a new clip or use your finger to release it. You have to hold back on the charging handle when you use your finger or you will get bit.

.

[Blackwater]

I think that argument has a bit of red herring in it.



I'd agree and say we could apply the same logic/argument to handguns.
I would believe most here could easilyy justify the need for a slide release and mag follower on a handgun holding the slide open after the last round is fired.

It takes alot longer to squeeze the trigger on an empty chamber; address/realize there isn't a round in the chamber, drop mag, insert new mag, engage slide/bolt to chamber new round and get ready to fire

Then to simply realize the chamber is empty, drop mag, insert new mag, hit slide/bolt release and get ready to fire again.

[sdcromer]

Do I wish that my AK's had bolt hold open? Yep it's one of those nice to have things.

Have I ever missed the fact that my bolt is open on my AR/M series? Yep I have when it's loud or busy.

So for me it's nice to have but not a deal breaker.

[skyugo]

the trigger has a different feel on a locked bolt.

an AR is waaaay faster to reload than an AK.

a BHO also has the benefit of being immediately open to inspection, AND immediately ready to load.

basically i've liked the feature ever since i got my old SKS.

[POF.Ops]

My preference is BHO. I can hear the difference between mags that do the BHO and ones that don't. Much easier to know when to drop the empty mag and lock a new mag in place when the bolt is open. JMO.

[rob_s]

I'm not sure I understand the argument.

So what if you don't realize the gun has run dry? Once you do, reloading to an open bolt is going to be faster with the bolt open than it is without.

I've been running the AK for 2008, and I've gotten pretty decent at the "bash the old mag out with the fresh one" method of reloading, but it's still slower.

Of course, in a fight who can say if that slowness would really make the difference or not.

[LOKNLOD]

There is a very well known trainer that is very pro-AK47. He has quite a following. He claims that the last round bolt hold open is an overrated feature on a fighting rifle. He says that in real combat with AR style weapons, many people don't even notice that the bolt has locked back. The shooter keeps trying to pull the trigger with no result. His logic is that this makes it an unnecessary feature.

This does not pass the B.S. test for me. It seems like an effort to try to justify a weakness in the weapon system that the guy likes. The lack of a BHO to me seems HUGE.

I preface this by saying that I don't deny that the BHO is a great feature and definitely prefer it myself, but...

Maybe it's not so much a matter of justifying a weakness in the AK system, as it is fending off the arguments of many who might dismiss the AK as a valid fighting platform for minor things like lack of a BHO? Not saying that's your argument, but I have heard it before.

[gjj]

I have not killed hundreds of people in deadly combat. But, just the fact that you could put yourself in a bad position on an empty chamber seems justification enough to make the BHO a HUGE, HUGE advantage in a fighting gun.

[SoDak]

I may be off base here, but I would think that a quick reload would be hard if an AR didn't have a bolt hold open due to the location of the charging handle. For me at least it sits too far back to make it easy to pull back when I have the gun shouldered. I mean the AK and most other guns that don't have a bolt hold open usually have a big charging handle in a spot that is easy to access.

[Stephen_H]

If the AR had a more useful charging handle I might be convinced to agree, but I have seen a lot of bent AR/M4 charging handles from shooters trying to manipulate it under stress.

Stephen

[Failure2Stop]

I look on it as a training issue- whatever you are used to will feel natural.
But to take that issue and run it out, it comes into stimulus reaction, with each event requiring different reactions depending on system.

To look at this as BHO/NON-BHO (for simplicity AR/AK) actions depending on event-

With an AK I train as follows-
Failure to fire (first round or known filled mag)-
Pull/Push-Rack-Engage

Failure to Fire (unknown magazine or following "IA")
Reload

I constantly check for vis obstructions as I roll the gun to rack overhanded (my preference, not the only way), and of course should a type 3 be seen it will be reduced as per proper technique- which would also be a nice time to have a BHO.

AR is diagnostic for me, to a degree. As noted above it is pretty easy to feel when the gun is running out of ammo if you are accustomed to paying attention to it. It is likewise easy to diagnose the stoppage by what the trigger feels like.

Having a BHO makes it much easier to quickly determine if the gun is dry by a quick glance or finger swipe- since guns dont always let you know that they are dry right away. What if you went dry but stopped the threat with the last shot? Of course, proper post-engagement sequence will overcome the issue, but having overlapping techniques/features simply makes it that much easier to do the right thing at the right time. I have seen more than one well trained individual conduct a tac-reload and have a "click" on the next target exposure. Is it possible with an M4? Sure. But being mildly aware of the situation and weapon condition would have indicated a need to drop the bolt. While I advocate a chamber check in conjunction with all tac-reloads, the fact of the matter is that unless the shooter is constantly and consistently drilled to perform, they have a high probability of failure with certain platforms.

But that's just what I have seen with sub-ninja types. I would expect that others in organizations that allow more time on other weapons would be sufficiently trained to overcome the limited ergonomics of the AK platform.