View Full Version : The Second Most Depressing Thing I've Ever Read...
The first is still Eric Haney's book "Inside Delta Force" where he stated that twice during the early 1980s they prepared operations to rescue POWs still held in Vietnam based upon "actionable intelligence" and twice information about their pending operation was "leaked" resulting in cancellation of the rescue attempts since it was known the prisoners would simply be relocated. It was speculated that people in the government who brokered the "peace deal" simply wrote off many remaining POWs and were still in positions of power ten years later.
If you haven't read this book, I strongly recommend it.
So now I'm reading "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot" by Lynne Black about his time in Vietnam as a member of MAC-V SOG and in the beginning he relates the back story of the conflict in Vietnam, including France's war with the Viet Mihn. Following the defeat at Dien Bien Phu I knew captured French soldiers were divided into two groups, wounded and ambulatory and that in most cases the wounded were simply executed and the ambulatory prisoners were force marched to prison camps.
What I didn't know is that those who survived the prison camps and returned to France on ships were not allowed to disembark the ships by order of the French government and many French soldiers actually died before being allowed to get off the boats. This was done in an attempt to prevent French citizens from learning about the defeat at Dien Bien Phu or the true cost of the war.
And I thought we treated our returning vets like shit.
IIRC the North Vietnamese held some French prisoners until years later, which of course fits like a glove with the accusations that they held U.S. POW's after the war (i.e. they had done it before).
After WW2 ended, Russia continued to keep thousands of Axis pow's as slave laborers. Also, many allied pilots shot down in Russian held areas were usually interned and not released. This action was a result of Stalin's paranoia. Communist countries have a history of lying about their treatment of pow's. Decades ago one researcher(forgot his name)revealed that among returning Vietnam pow's there were no amputees, and he asserted that North Vietnam killed patients that they could not treat successfully. When the Vietnam War pow's came home, they said very little about their incarceration. My opinion has always been that our government "encouraged with great assertion" that these men not discuss their treatment so as not to embarrass North Vietnam. Our government through the action of its policy makers has pulled off many chicken shit deals on the backs of American troops. Politicians will go to any length to keep their positions.
crusader377
01-14-16, 10:41
What I didn't know is that those who survived the prison camps and returned to France on ships were not allowed to disembark the ships by order of the French government and many French soldiers actually died before being allowed to get off the boats. This was done in an attempt to prevent French citizens from learning about the defeat at Dien Bien Phu or the true cost of the war.
And I thought we treated our returning vets like shit.
I have never heard about that but the French in Indo-China did leave the G.C.M.As (Tribal Vietnamese allies led by French Commandos, Similar to the concept of a SF A team, living and fighting with Indigenous forces) to rot after the war ended. In Bernard Fall's book "Street without Joy" which is one of the definitive books on the French involvement in Vietnam, some of these units held on for nearly 2 years in North Vietnam after the war ended before finally being overrun.
France was reeling in the '50's from one thing or another-- like problems in Algeria-- This swept De Gaulle back into power as the govt that gave them the losses in Vietnam fell. As I recall, there were almost 12k French soldiers captured at Dien Bien Phu. A little over 3k returned just a few months later.
Point being, the govt was socialist and traded for another socialist (De Gaulle), and how do most socialists treat their military anyway?
I don't know much about the French in Vietnam, but do remember hearing the French Foreign Legion did have many ex Whermacht, who were typically sergeants and very good soldiers. I have read two or three of John Plaster's books on MACV SOG. Most of it was about ops in Laos and Cambodia which we were not supposed to be. And then there is the Ravens, Air America, CIA, etc. Interesting stuff.
I don't know much about the French in Vietnam, but do remember hearing the French Foreign Legion did have many ex Whermacht, who were typically sergeants and very good soldiers. I have read two or three of John Plaster's books on MACV SOG. Most of it was about ops in Laos and Cambodia which we were not supposed to be. And then there is the Ravens, Air America, CIA, etc. Interesting stuff.
My older brother did the SOG thing going into Laos. Lived with the Montagnards and fought along side them. Now he's dying from melanoma caused by agent orange.
crusader377
01-14-16, 11:14
After WW2 ended, Russia continued to keep thousands of Axis pow's as slave laborers. Also, many allied pilots shot down in Russian held areas were usually interned and not released. This action was a result of Stalin's paranoia. Communist countries have a history of lying about their treatment of pow's. Decades ago one researcher(forgot his name)revealed that among returning Vietnam pow's there were no amputees, and he asserted that North Vietnam killed patients that they could not treat successfully. When the Vietnam War pow's came home, they said very little about their incarceration. My opinion has always been that our government "encouraged with great assertion" that these men not discuss their treatment so as not to embarrass North Vietnam. Our government through the action of its policy makers has pulled off many chicken shit deals on the backs of American troops. Politicians will go to any length to keep their positions.
IIRC, also some Allied POWs which were liberated by the Soviets towards the end of WWII were also detained by the Stalin for quite some time after the war. Also, some German POWs were not released by the Russians until the mid 1950s.
The Soviets were no better than the Japanese and Germans, they just happened to be on the winning side when it was all said and done. Ask anyone of Polish decent what they think about Russians and you'll get all the answers you've ever looked for. Normally they'll start with the Katyn massacre and go from there.
My older brother did the SOG thing going into Laos. Lived with the Montagnards and fought along side them. Now he's dying from melanoma caused by agent orange.
Brave guy. Thank him for his service. He may have known Plaster. Sucks that he is sick.
I have never heard about that but the French in Indo-China did leave the G.C.M.As (Tribal Vietnamese allies led by French Commandos, Similar to the concept of a SF A team, living and fighting with Indigenous forces) to rot after the war ended. In Bernard Fall's book "Street without Joy" which is one of the definitive books on the French involvement in Vietnam, some of these units held on for nearly 2 years in North Vietnam after the war ended before finally being overrun.
Great book, as is Hell In A Very Small Place. I am disheartened and disgusted we left men in VN, but so not surprised.
In the late 80s I met with the great senator Jesse Helms (R-NC) and his military adviser as I was trying to secure an appointment to Annapolis (did not get in). We had a great meeting, talked about a whole host of military matters. One thing they talked about was the embarrassment of not trying to get POWs back from VN but did not elaborate. To be sure is has haunted this country.
Moose-Knuckle
01-15-16, 16:49
I read Eric Haney's book, but never knew about the French ****ing over their men too.
I read Eric Haney's book, but never knew about the French ****ing over their men too.
If you lose the war, the 'losers' are always swept under the rug, ignored, and treated with general disdain being a reminder of a lost war. The sooner they go away, the better as far as the powers that be are concerned as they are a reminder of bad decisions made by them. I can't think of a country off hand who has not treated its returning troops of a lost war like chit. Hell, some countries do a poor job of properly treating their returning troops of wars they won!
Moose-Knuckle
01-15-16, 17:03
If you lose the war, the 'losers' are always swept under the rug, ignored, and treated with general disdain being a reminder of a lost war. The sooner they go away, the better as far as the powers that be are concerned as they are a reminder of bad decisions made by them. I can't think of a country off hand who has not treated its returning troops of a lost war like chit. Hell, some countries do a poor job of properly treating their returning troops of wars they won!
Here's the rub, the US didn't lose the Vietnam War, nor Korea . . . they were not allowed to win.
I also remember something about US POWs being abandoned in Korea.
Here's the rub, the US didn't lose the Vietnam War, nor Korea . . . they were not allowed to win.
I also remember something about US POWs being abandoned in Korea.
That's the point really. The end result is the same, if not worse for those troops.
I read Eric Haney's book, but never knew about the French ****ing over their men too.
Yeah, the French going Greek on their guys...
with no lube. Or maybe it was frog lube! lol... that's another thread.
Things like this disgust me to no end. The cowardice is appalling. And it's so unnecessary.
Moose-Knuckle
01-16-16, 01:31
I remember movies that were popular about this subject matter back in the 80's, pissed a lot of people off . . .
Uncommon Valor
Missing In Action (trilogy)
Rambo: First Blood Part II
Also several popular TV series devoted episodes to the subject matter:
The A-Team (Season 4 Episode #23 The Sound of Thunder)
Magnum, P.I. (Season 5 Episode #15 All For One)
My older brother did the SOG thing going into Laos. Lived with the Montagnards and fought along side them. Now he's dying from melanoma caused by agent orange.
One of the few stories Dad does tell about his time in Vietnam is about how the firebase took harassing fire a couple of nights a week. One night they all just said **** it and gave chase to whoever was firing on them. He said they probably were into Cambodia at the end of it because there wasn't any signs in the jungle that says "Now leaving Vietnam".
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