View Full Version : FFL Gun Seller Demanding a Copy of My Driver's License
I'm sorry, but I do not have access to "General Discussion" yet, so I thought I would post his here.
I've purchased dozens of firearms from Gunbroker, from FFL dealers selling there and ran across something for the first time the other day. I purchased a handgun from a FFL dealer down in TX that is brand new to Gunbroker, with no rating. Everything went fine but they are demanding I send them a copy of my driver's license and are claiming they are "legally obligated" to have a copy of it to prove I'm over 18. I've tried to tell them that the FFL transfer process does precisely that and they are not delivering it to me, but to a FFL who will follow the legal requirements, including verifying my identity, age, etc. The ATF's own requirements simply state that a FFL dealer can not sell to anyone they think may be underage, but does nowhere require them to collect driver license copies.
Since this is the first time this has happened to me in the many years I've been buying from FFL dealers on Gunbroker, is this FFL right and all other FFL dealers wrong?
Thanks for any opinions/thoughts.
el_chingoton13
01-16-16, 14:37
I had a dealer take my DL and make a copy "for their records" as I was filling out a 4473 once. I wasn't pleased. Haven't been back there since.
I had a dealer take my DL and make a copy "for their records" as I was filling out a 4473 once. I wasn't pleased. Haven't been back there since.
Some of you people just don't get it.
Most FFLs make a copy of your DL and CCW/state gun purchase card when you fill out a 4473.
I'm sorry, but I do not have access to "General Discussion" yet, so I thought I would post his here.
I've purchased dozens of firearms from Gunbroker, from FFL dealers selling there and ran across something for the first time the other day. I purchased a handgun from a FFL dealer down in TX that is brand new to Gunbroker, with no rating. Everything went fine but they are demanding I send them a copy of my driver's license and are claiming they are "legally obligated" to have a copy of it to prove I'm over 18. I've tried to tell them that the FFL transfer process does precisely that and they are not delivering it to me, but to a FFL who will follow the legal requirements, including verifying my identity, age, etc. The ATF's own requirements simply state that a FFL dealer can not sell to anyone they think may be underage, but does nowhere require them to collect driver license copies.
Since this is the first time this has happened to me in the many years I've been buying from FFL dealers on Gunbroker, is this FFL right and all other FFL dealers wrong?
Thanks for any opinions/thoughts.
They don't legally need a copy of your DL but they are asking for it as an internal policy. In the time it takes you to post this, you could have already sent it to them and been done with this nonsense.
el_chingoton13
01-16-16, 14:43
Oh I get it and let them do it as it is their business to make that policy. I just decided to take my business to one of the myriad other dealers in my area that don't have similar practices.
I had a dealer take my DL and make a copy "for their records" as I was filling out a 4473 once. I wasn't pleased. Haven't been back there since.
Yes, that always happens.
This is NOT what I'm talking about or asking about. I am talking about a dealer demanding me to give them a copy of my driver's license before they ship the firearm to my FFL, with whom, as always, I'll go through the background check, form 4473, etc. etc.
They don't legally need a copy of your DL but they are asking for it as an internal policy.
No, they are telling me it is a legal requirement, which I know is BS. He is a noob Gunbroker dealer and I told him no other dealer has ever done this. I'm not sending it, period. If they want to lose a sale and get an "F" rating as their first review on Gunbroker, so be it. I even offered to send them a copy of my conceal carry license.
Oh I get it and let them do it as it is their business to make that policy. I just decided to take my business to one of the myriad other dealers in my area that don't have similar practices.
In fact, on this thread, you "don't" get it. What you are describing is not what I'm talking about and asking about. So stop gumming up the thread with this please.
el_chingoton13
01-16-16, 14:47
Lol alright guy have a good day.
If I'm understanding this, the seller is telling you to send a copy of your license before they will ship to your local FFL?
No that sends the red flags flying in my mind. I wouldn't do it.
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I'm sorry, but I do not have access to "General Discussion" yet, so I thought I would post his here.
I've purchased dozens of firearms from Gunbroker, from FFL dealers selling there and ran across something for the first time the other day. I purchased a handgun from a FFL dealer down in TX that is brand new to Gunbroker, with no rating. Everything went fine but they are demanding I send them a copy of my driver's license and are claiming they are "legally obligated" to have a copy of it to prove I'm over 18. I've tried to tell them that the FFL transfer process does precisely that and they are not delivering it to me, but to a FFL who will follow the legal requirements, including verifying my identity, age, etc. The ATF's own requirements simply state that a FFL dealer can not sell to anyone they think may be underage, but does nowhere require them to collect driver license copies.
Since this is the first time this has happened to me in the many years I've been buying from FFL dealers on Gunbroker, is this FFL right and all other FFL dealers wrong?
Thanks for any opinions/thoughts.
They are complete morons.
There is no regulation requiring this. In most cases the end user is not even known. As you point out, they are xferring it the dealer, all they need is his FFL. The local dealer you get it from makes sure you are 18.
It is unfortunate the industry has so many morons in it.
Bring it up to gunbroker. At minimum an idiot policy like this should be posted on their auction beforehand.
I had a dealer take my DL and make a copy "for their records" as I was filling out a 4473 once. I wasn't pleased. Haven't been back there since.
I would not go back either. Unless there is a state requirement, that is not required by law. What next, fingerprints, DNA?
If I'm understanding this, the seller is telling you to send a copy of your license before they will ship to your local FFL?
No that sends the red flags flying in my mind. I wouldn't do it.
Yes, you have it precisely correct. I've tried gently twice now to tell them they are wrong and why, but they are insisting on it and I've even sent them ATF and Gunbroker documentation to prove my point to them.
It is unfortunate the industry has so many morons in it.
Indeed, against my better instincts I made a buy from a seller with NR on Gunbroker, after I confirmed they were a legit FFL dealership, but ....
It's why I always block buyers with NR. I'd rather them learn how to use Gunbroker and get their shat together on somebody else's time and dime.
wetidlerjr
01-16-16, 15:21
I understand your hesitancy. This would be unusual in my experience and if you don't like it, simply move on to someone else.
Eurodriver
01-16-16, 15:37
Some of you people just don't get it.
Most FFLs make a copy of your DL and CCW/state gun purchase card when you fill out a 4473.
I don't think I've ever bought a gun without giving them a copy of my DL.
Ever.
I don't think I've ever bought a gun without giving them a copy of my DL.
Ever.
Oh, for the love of God, man, read the OP. But then again, it probably would not make a difference. Carry on.
Oh, for the love of God, man, read the OP. But then again, it probably would not make a difference. Carry on.
I feel your pain, some days you think just about everybody is functionally illiterate.
I've also never been asked for any identification when purchasing an FFL item online. As long as the seller receives payment and a valid FFL to transfer the item to, they're happy. Unless you're getting a deal you can't pass up, I'd look elsewhere. Perhaps if this particular seller gets turned down by multiple would be buyers, he'll change his policies.
I feel your pain, some days you think just about everybody is functionally illiterate.
Hah, ain't that so? I put in HUGE RED LETTERS on every one of my Gunbroker sales "READ THIS" where I list my terms and conditions and it never ceases to amaze me how many idiots there are out there who apparently never got past a first grade reading comprehension level.
dtconnelly
01-16-16, 16:27
Op, you are spot on. Once the seller has their funds, your name (to be attached to the package when shipped to your ffl) and a copy of your ffl's license, they have fulfilled all of their responsibilities. They don't need to know any more about you...and if they know so little about the law that they are demanding your DL or other info, I would be tempted to inform them that you will not be pursuing the purchase any further because they are requesting confidential information that is not required under law.
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I've had it happen to me before when selling a gun on Gunbroker. At that time I didn't have my C&R, and it was the receiving FFL's "policy" of having some form of ID to cover his butt when he did a transfer. My local FFL's look at my DL when they run my 4473 and note the DL # on the 4473. My FFL's know me, but again, I'm sure they do this to cover their butt.
That's the only time I've had it happen to me. I didn't like it, but I already had been paid, and didn't want to back out of the deal on the buyer. Now when I list something I put in my ad that I will not give the receiving FFL any more information than what is on my C&R license.
My local FFL's look at my DL when they run my 4473 and note the DL # on the 4473. My FFL's know me, but again, I'm sure they do this to cover their butt.
No they do it because it is legally required.
I've bought a few guns off GunBroker, never had anyone ask for a driver's license, for the reasons you stated earlier. It's not necessary.
So, this particular reseller either has established this as an arbitrary policy, or he doesn't understand the law. Nevertheless, he has established the requirement as a condition of sale. If you can't convince him that's it's unnecessary, you'll either have to send him a copy of your DL, or find someone else, I guess.
No they do it because it is legally required.
Oh. My. Gosh.
What is wrong with people? Honestly?
Linebacker
01-16-16, 17:02
I've bought a few guns off GunBroker, never had anyone ask for a driver's license, for the reasons you stated earlier. It's not necessary.
So, this particular reseller either has established this as an arbitrary policy, or he doesn't understand the law. Nevertheless, he has established the requirement as a condition of sale. If you can't convince him that's it's unnecessary, you'll either have to send him a copy of your DL, or find someone else, I guess.
An excellent summation. The added step gives the dealer more peace of mind...
Oh. My. Gosh.
What is wrong with people? Honestly?
Reading is for suckers.
As you found out, it is easier to make stuff up rather than read and follow the instructions.
RazorBurn, here is why your FFL records your DL#, It is instruction 20a:
https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download
The licensee must record the type, identification number, and expiration date (if any) of the identification in question 20a.
LOL. Who's on first?
I've never had anyone ask me for a DL and I just made two Internet purchases over Black Friday from two different sellers. When you go to pick it up from your local FFL, now that's a whole different story.
Technically speaking, I can kinda see how someone might want to ask for it. Let's say they are low budget just getting started. Maybe they are new FFL and think BATF might watch their initial activity. Ok, so with that in mind...
You buy the gun. He actually is "selling it to you"... you take your money from your pocket and place it in his for a valuable item. That is a sale. Now... he has no idea who you are and if things go wrong you still can't get your gun because it still has to go through another FFL before you.....
Now let's say you really are 17 and the FFL say no way. At that point the seller has to, refund your money, pay shipping back, etc..
Maybe...... this is simply his business model just to keep things on the smooth running side. The good is, America is still a Capitalist society and you can just tell him to screw that, you will shop elsewhere. He can then rethink his position of roll with it.
It's sort of like the "no shirt, no shoes, no service" deal or not baking a 'gay cake' on special order. Business owners should have a right to run their business the way THEY want and not the way YOU want.
I see your situation, but it's his business..... not your right. He can make all the rules he wants... and you can shop next door.
It's sort of like the "no shirt, no shoes, no service" deal or not baking a 'gay cake' on special order. Business owners should have a right to run their business the way THEY want and not the way YOU want.
I see your situation, but it's his business..... not your right. He can make all the rules he wants... and you can shop next door.
He should mention his stupid rules up front.
But like you said, it is his business. Maybe he likes selling guns on Internet only to lose the sale with an unmentioned rule.
He should mention his stupid rules up front.
Absolutely.... same as online ammo sellers... you can't get near the checkout line until they have your ID on file and they make that fact very clear up front.
ETA: .. . and I would have Gunbroker solve the issue on that merit. Pretty sure they don't want sellers jerking people around after the fact like that.
I don't think I've ever bought a gun without giving them a copy of my DL.
Ever.
And I can't recall ever doing so. However, here in the Republik of Illinois, you give the ISP your DL number (which they already have) when you apply for your FOID. john
You either want this gun or not.
It's a CYA deal for them. It may not be legally required but all they are getting is a crappy picture of you, your DOB, and your address (which they already have).
Run off a copy and obscure your OLN number if you are that paranoid(which nobody has ever objected to), get your gun, and carry on in life.
You'll still have to provide ID or CWL to whomever completes the transfer anyways.
This is a non-issue.
Hell, go to a casino or rent a room. Same deal.
I'm as cautious about persec as anyone but jeez
I thought it was cool how you used the word "persec" ... that sounds operationally operational.
The gun store I work at makes no photocopies of licenses. I'm not sure where Scotty Ryan gets "most" from.
I thought it was cool how you used the word "persec" ... that sounds operationally operational.
Well, good luck anyways
Eurodriver
01-16-16, 18:54
Oh, for the love of God, man, read the OP. But then again, it probably would not make a difference. Carry on.
I read the OP home skillet. He's referring to an FFL transfer from an out of state purchase.
My statement remains true, man.
I read the OP home skillet. He's referring to an FFL transfer from an out of state purchase.
My statement remains true, man.
He is the OP. He's not capiscing that someone is taking an extra step for accountability(rightly or wrongly so) and that he'll be providing ID anyways during the 4473 transfer.
He's been provided solutions. He has the tools and the talent. He can either:
A) Reneg on the deal, cite that the request for DL copy wasn't specified, and leave it up to Gunbroker
B)Run off or Email a copy of his DL with OLN obscured, get his gun and drive on.
I've bought ammo from people and did the same thing. All they get is your address, a small photo, and how old you are.
The problem is.......?
...The problem is.......?
Best I can tell the problem is the buyer would rather convince the seller he's wrong than get his gun.
So you know they don't need your DL to ship, but want it to ship.
If you want the gun, send copy of DL. If you don't want gun, don't send copy of DL.
...and yes they're idiots for thinking they need it
SeriousStudent
01-16-16, 21:17
You have the answer to your question.
This evening's angst quota has been achieved.
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