View Full Version : Assistance with Wife's CCW (Slightly Unusual)
DreadPirateMoyer
01-16-16, 14:39
So...not the usual request I hope, since there seems to be one of these threads a day on the internet. My wife and I have some special criteria for her CCW, but I'm fairly unfamiliar with the mouse gun market, so I was hoping you could help. Here's what we need, and it's making the job tough:
1. Reliable. If it chokes often or is finicky, we don't want it.
2. Light trigger pull. My wife has a medical condition that doesn't allow her to pull heavy triggers like on a revolver.
3. Light recoil. Same as above.
4. Manual safety. She may purse carry at times and we want every precaution for safety, and yes, I understand proper holsters and such will aid with this. Still want the safety.
5. Small. She is petite, so if she doesn't purse carry, we need it to actually conceal on her body. Even in the purse, the weight savings would be nice. Most 9mm pistols, even single stacks, fail this.
Any ideas?
So far, the only thing we could come up with is a Colt Mustang and its variants. If that's what we need, we're fine with it, but wanted to make sure we knew all the options. A Glock 42 would also be nice, but it fails 1 with all the problems it's had and also 4.
Much appreciated for any help you can provide. Want to do what I can to keep her optimally safe.
The_Watcher
01-16-16, 15:01
Kel Tec PMR-30
I second the M&P Shield recommendation.
It wouldn't be my first choice (I got rid of mine because the front sight fell off the first time I shot it), but given the criteria (which really narrow your choices and eliminate some very reliable options), it should do nicely.
FlyingHunter
01-16-16, 17:50
Take her to a range that allows rental of multiple firearms. Her hands will tell her what fits, feels, and points the best. Also, regarding purse carry: Either have a purpose built purse with a built in holster and access control and/or also make sure the firearm is in holster that covers the trigger, regardless of the safety design intrinsic in the firearm. Good luck.
I would recommend the Sig p938. Both my girlfriend and I carry one and it is excellent. My girlfriend is extremely accurate with hers and says the recoil is manageable. You can also opt for hogue grips for added comfort. The Sig p238 in 380 is another option if she wants softer recoil. It should be similar to the colt mustang. Good luck.
The wife carries a Glock 42 in her clutch bag. A SAF-T-BLOK is used before it goes in her handbag. So far it's been reliable, but it's only had 500 rounds fired through it.
A Sig Sauer P238 fits most of the criteria you stated, except recoil is quite a bit more noticeable than the felt recoil of a Glock 42.
I will also suggest a Shield. Drop in an Apex kit and you end up with a very decent trigger, it is easy to conceal and available with a safety (albeit a bit small, but it would be less likely to be swept off in purse carry).
warpedcamshaft
01-16-16, 21:26
I'd recommend reading Claude Werner's blog/material and paying close attention to his insights on CCW for females and realistic expectations. Your question is actually not unusual, but instead is often not realistically represented in many forums or online discussions. Also, "Limatunes" is a good resource for this type of thing.
Off body carry is a bad idea for my wife... and I would rather see her have a tiny gun on her person than a larger one in a peripheral bag. Off body carry is not a bad thing by any means, but the user must be constantly vigilant and aware of the location of the bag. A momentary lapse in the location of the bag can result in tragedy if children are present, I've read about a half dozen cases of death or serious injury to children from off body carry. The individual responsible always says the same thing: "I only looked away for a second"
In the end, my recommendation would be to have your wife research the subject on her own and come to a decision based on realistic expectations and if possible demo'ing various guns. Choosing a firearm, a method of carry, and if one should carry is a very personal decision.
I would stick with a Shield. You get a pistol smaller than that, and you end up with too much compromise on your plate. Having said that, I have two Ruger LCP's in my house for special circumstances, and they are great little pistols, IMO - just not for general EDC. Good luck.
I find many times a person may be better off with a good small light and OC spray, especially with people that may not be dedicated enough to overcome fear of recoil and/or hand strength issues, or where medical problems exist. Being gun people, we sometimes throw people in the deep end of it without exploring all options. The old hammer and nail thing....
Another shield suggestion, add apex kit for trigger reduction. Every female I've had shoot it has done well with minimal instruction on it, and the first time out with one, I rapid fired a heart sized group at 5-7 yds. The gun is just easy to shoot well for its size. My sample of 2 has been 100% reliable with variable ammo.
powhatanpete
01-17-16, 09:47
I sell at a retail gun counter. Your situation is very common.
I would suggest the Sig P238. When I hear light trigger pull I also hear that slide racking will be a challenge. Most folks seem very pleased w P238. Get an extended magazine for some extra grip.
Walther CCP might be a choice. I can not comment on reliability yet. Again easy to work the slide and comfortable grip.
I have also had positive feedback from customers liking the Ruger LC9s though I am not a fan
I like the shield, pps etc but many find the slides are hard to work.
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I like the Sig P238, and P938 as they are locked breech. Get a good holster even for purse carry, and/or get her a purse designed for CC. This site is geared towards women, and written by a woman. Good info.
http://www.corneredcat.com/
So...not the usual request I hope, since there seems to be one of these threads a day on the internet. My wife and I have some special criteria for her CCW, but I'm fairly unfamiliar with the mouse gun market, so I was hoping you could help. Here's what we need, and it's making the job tough: <snip>.
Have your wife test fire each of the guns she is considering. My expectations for reliability of subcompacts and micros is generally low (particularly for some of those suggested) and any grip or neuro issues she has exacerbates issues. Also ensure she can handle any control manipulations and operation of the slide. Compensatory movements to do so can result in unsafe muzzle control and hand placement.
Some of the suggestions made in this thread are likely to be very poor choices. Actual handling and test firing will be critical.
I've never found a handgun that was small, light and low recoil aside from a 22lr. In the end you may have to make a compromise between weight and caliber to get the low recoil part. But recoil is subjective, so a rental range should be your first stop.
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Don't overlook the old/new Colt Government 380 and Mustang. Steel framed old style, not the new XPS tupperware. There was also a Mustang +2, a 380 Govt Frame with a Mustang Slide for a large/longer grip.
I know this is a semi auto thread; but I have a lot of reservations about small semi autos in that role. They definitely have the edge for small size and flatness, but the manual of arms is simpler, reliability pretty much a given, and grip options plentiful. Your requirements can all be addressed except for #4 manual safety; DA or DAO suffice there. S&W makes J frames .22LR, .32, and .38/.357. Lots of wiggle room.
IMHO off body carry is an invitation to Murphy. And with 3 women in the family carrying, I still admit that I can't please everybody.
Sometimes less is more, though.
The Sig P238 and P938 came to mind based on your priorities. The shield will also be a good choice if you want a manual safety.
teutonicpolymer
01-17-16, 23:55
The Springfield emp is an option I personally like that fits your criteria.
It is extremely soft shooting, pretty small, relatively light, light trigger pull, has external safeties, etc.
Have your wife test fire each of the guns she is considering. My expectations for reliability of subcompacts and micros is generally low (particularly for some of those suggested) and any grip or neuro issues she has exacerbates issues. Also ensure she can handle any control manipulations and operation of the slide. Compensatory movements to do so can result in unsafe muzzle control and hand placement.
Some of the suggestions made in this thread are likely to be very poor choices. Actual handling and test firing will be critical.
This.
My wife shoots my P229/.40 and G19 easily. However, for carry--she really liked shooting the Glock 43...so we will likely get her a Glock 43. I would never pick her gun for her, but would spend the money to let her pick what is best for her.
The Springfield emp is an option I personally like that fits your criteria.
It is extremely soft shooting, pretty small, relatively light, light trigger pull, has external safeties, etc.
We have an EMP 9, but no one carries it. Both my wife and I find it's recoil to be objectionable and hard to control. Recoil is definitely subjective, but I have to ask. If you think it's extremely soft shooting, what do you consider to be harsh recoiling?
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I absolutely would discourage the manual safety, but sounds like an M&P Shield is your best bet.
1) Keep it simple
2) Keep it reliable
3) Don't buy a weapon with controls she cannot manipulate.
Another vote for the Shield, several guys at work now carry them off duty and have had zero reliability issues. The Shield also will take a set of full size night sights which is good for both target acquisition and compromised eye sight. I know you are operating under a very specific set of circumstances, but the smaller the gun the more felt recoil there is (even when moving down calibers) so if that is a major concern super small even in .380 may not be best. Of the three P238s I've consistently been exposed to, 2 regularly choke and one runs (in all fairness we are restricted to one ammo load so that may contribute).
The shield fits your criteria. Add the apex goodies and good sights and you are GTG. That's my wife's setup but if you are willing to do without the manual safety the G43 is a fine choice and slightly smaller. In my opinion the G43 still needs a sights upgrade as well.
Shield fits the bill. Mine has the Apex duty kit and I'm still not enamored with the trigger[ love the apex on my full size M&P] I think its partially due to having big hands and the fact the trigger breaks so far back.
Recoil is subjective but I don't think its bad at all with the shield...the little pistol handles it well considering the thin grip section.
How small a caliber are you willing to go?
How big a gun is she willing to carry?
It seems like you will have to compromise with either a tiny cartridge, .22lr or .25acp, maybe .32acp. Or if you want a real round like 9mm, I think you need to step up to some Glock 19 size to handle the recoil.
I have a Kahr PM9, I would never suggest it for my wife because it is snappy at its size, and requires skill to shoot effectively. With a Glock 19, it is big enough she can easily shoot and control it. She does not suffer from any aliments either.
While a tiny round when I read your description my Walther P22 came to mind. I don't really consider .22lr a defense round, but its better than nothing I guess?
I'd recommend reading Claude Werner's blog/material and paying close attention to his insights on CCW for females and realistic expectations. Your question is actually not unusual, but instead is often not realistically represented in many forums or online discussions. Also, "Limatunes" is a good resource for this type of thing.
Off body carry is a bad idea for my wife... and I would rather see her have a tiny gun on her person than a larger one in a peripheral bag. Off body carry is not a bad thing by any means, but the user must be constantly vigilant and aware of the location of the bag. A momentary lapse in the location of the bag can result in tragedy if children are present, I've read about a half dozen cases of death or serious injury to children from off body carry. The individual responsible always says the same thing: "I only looked away for a second"
In the end, my recommendation would be to have your wife research the subject on her own and come to a decision based on realistic expectations and if possible demo'ing various guns. Choosing a firearm, a method of carry, and if one should carry is a very personal decision.
This.
I would add that meeting all of these criteria is going to require going below traditionally accepted minimum calibers.
My suggestion is a Kel-Tec P-32. Replace the standard 9 lb. recoil spring with a Wolff 11 lb. spring for 100% reliability. Less important, but also helpful, are Wolff +10% extra power magazine springs. Add a Crimson Trace LaserGuard and some +0 magazine extensions for a better grip.
For safety in a purse, a purse with a separate gun compartment is far more critical than a manual safety on the gun. Also, purse carry is superior to some of the more creative on-body carry solutions for speed of access under pressure. However, the disadvantage noted in the above quote must be given careful attention.
EzGoingKev
01-22-16, 13:51
If choosing a semi-auto for someone with low upper body strength the most important thing is to see if they can rack the slide.
teutonicpolymer
01-22-16, 14:18
We have an EMP 9, but no one carries it. Both my wife and I find it's recoil to be objectionable and hard to control. Recoil is definitely subjective, but I have to ask. If you think it's extremely soft shooting, what do you consider to be harsh recoiling?
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Maybe it's just me then
I find most things to be tolerable as far as recoil but some are worse than others. An example of one I wouldn't recommend to a friend that is recoil sensitive would be a Ruger LCR.
Maybe it's just me then
I find most things to be tolerable as far as recoil but some are worse than others. An example of one I wouldn't recommend to a friend that is recoil sensitive would be a Ruger LCR.
Those are pretty viscous.
What surprised us was that the EMP's recoil (to us) was nearly indistinguishable from an Officers ACP. We expected a marked reduction in recoil.
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Love my Kahr p380 but no safety
Concur with renting/trying one at a range.
SIG 238 and Colt Mustang, maybe even the Browning 1911-22.
If choosing a semi-auto for someone with low upper body strength the most important thing is to see if they can rack the slide.
I teach NRA Basic Pistol about twice a year, and seem to end up 1 on 1 with female shooters with diminished hand strength a disproportionate number of times. Racking the slide is not really a concern, since this is a 2 hand operation and proper technique solves most problems. The most significant issues I see are working the trigger and dealing with recoil.
voiceofreason
01-23-16, 08:21
If she has enough training, the gun she CCWs won't matter.
Make sure she trains with a full size gun and gets lots of time behind the trigger with good instructors.
The Shield is a bit big, but great as far as being a gun. The Mustang/Sig 238 are GREAT for carry, but run .380 which I'd run with ball ammo only.
I teach NRA Basic Pistol about twice a year, and seem to end up 1 on 1 with female shooters with diminished hand strength a disproportionate number of times. Racking the slide is not really a concern, since this is a 2 hand operation and proper technique solves most problems. The most significant issues I see are working the trigger and dealing with recoil.
Exactly. I would add fear of the gun itself as well. If they stick with it and practice they'll be fine, but if they don't, then they're better served by having something other than a gun IMO.
1_click_off
01-23-16, 18:43
Can't recommend the firearm as many have suggested best to rent and try. My coworker's wife bought one of these to carry her CCW. She seems to like it.
http://www.deneadams.com/media
DreadPirateMoyer
01-23-16, 20:38
Thanks for the tips everyone! I was definitely going to take her to a range before buying, but needed to make sure I had a game plan going in and didn't miss any gems. :)
My wife, by the nature of marrying a friendly neighborhood gun nut, is very comfortable with firearms and is well trained relative to most. She's shot a lot of handguns and knows safe operation and the basics by heart. Our only consistent problems are trigger pull weight (can't get the trigger to budge on a stock J-frame, for example) and snappy recoil. Racking the slide has never been a problem and we've shot a good amount of pistols.
I'm going to snag a Sig P238, Colt Mustang of some sort, and S&W M&P Shield 9mm. I have a feeling it'll be one of the first two, but we'll see.
Boom. Thread success. :D
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