View Full Version : MN LEO shoots, wounds suspect after high speed chase, blames muscle memory for ND
Muscle memory had very little to do with the ND. Rather, a high-stress environment contributed to the ND.
Police released video of an accidental shooting after a pursuit, FOX 9 reported.
Eden Prairie Sergeant Lonnie Soppeland had been pursuing then 21-year-old Matthew Hovland-Knase at speeds reaching 110 miles per hour on June 20, 2015. Eventually, Hovland-Knase pulled over to the side of the road and Soppeland jumped out of his cruiser with his gun drawn.
Soppeland commanded Hovland-Knase to raise his hands before accidentally firing. Hovland-Knase yelled, “I’m bleeding.”
Soppeland immediately administered aid and apologised to the suspect.
In the dash cam video, the two exchange words and acknowledged the shooting was not intentional.
http://tinyurl.com/z5o9vyt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuWVR2Dv5vM
Leaveammoforme
01-26-16, 17:27
Muscle memory from "50 to a 100" rounds almost 3 weeks prior? Lame excuse.
Being pumped up? The LEO told a guy on a bike to "Put it in Park". I think the LEO was definitely pumped. Still no excuse for a ND though.
The LEO did own up for his actions. That says something at least.
Soppeland later told a detective during the investigation of the incident, “I drew my firearm with my right hand, I planned to steady it with my left hand. When my hands made contact, the firearm discharged once unintentionally. It was not my conscious choice.”
I hear two shots.
"The detective asked if firearms training 20 days prior when Soppeland fired 50 to 100 rounds was a factor. Soppeland said it was."
So that kind of questioning qualifies as detective work now? That question sounds like one that would come from your lawyer. "Yeah, that's the ticket!" It was muscle memory from a box of ammo. Thanks detective, you coming by for dinner tonight?
So all that for a nothing conviction... "Hovland-Knase was convicted of fleeing an officer last year."
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-26-16, 18:30
Maybe if the guy hadn't led the officer on a 110mph chase this whole situation would have never unfolded...
Muscle memory should have kept his finger OFF the trigger.
Now people are going to blame training for NDs. Wonderful.
So at :23 seconds WTF goes over the bikers head?
Terrible shoot btw, biker signaled intent to pull over and did. Don't know why the LEO would be so jacked up he would even draw and line on the biker. As far as I know speeding isn't a felony stop, and if he wasn't chasing a felony suspect he shouldn't have even drawn his weapon.
Maybe if the guy hadn't led the officer on a 110mph chase this whole situation would have never unfolded...
Speeding isn't a felony. The LEO had no reason I could see to even draw his weapon.
Maybe if the guy hadn't led the officer on a 110mph chase this whole situation would have never unfolded...
The officer should have stopped the pursuit.
Leaveammoforme
01-26-16, 18:44
Maybe if the guy hadn't led the officer on a 110mph chase this whole situation would have never unfolded...
This is only a valid point if the biker knew he was running. 110 mph on that piece of crap with no gear equals major tunnel vision. The biker could have been out just beating on his bike and been none the wiser. The 'start to end' dash cam video would be helpful.
While I'm not excusing the biker from any foul, the above situation does happen.
Speeding isn't a felony. The LEO had no reason I could see to even draw his weapon.
Muscle memory should have kept his finger OFF the trigger.
Now people are going to blame training for NDs. Wonderful.
So at :23 seconds WTF goes over the bikers head?
Terrible shoot btw, biker signaled intent to pull over and did. Don't know why the LEO would be so jacked up he would even draw and line on the biker. As far as I know speeding isn't a felony stop, and if he wasn't chasing a felony suspect he shouldn't have even drawn his weapon.
Those speeds with an officer in pursuit it would be easy to articulate a fleeing and attempting to elude law enforcement charge (which in the state of Florida is a felony ) and therefore a felony stop (guns drawn).
Those speeds with an officer in pursuit it would be easy to articulate a fleeing and attempting to elude law enforcement charge (which in the state of Florida is a felony ) and therefore a felony stop (guns drawn).
First question is, was it actually a pursuit or did the biker pull over as soon as he realized he had lights behind him?
Turns out fleeing is a third degree felony,
Felonies of the third degree are the least serious types of felonies in Florida, punishable by up to five years in prison and a fine of up to $5,000. If lawmakers fail to designate the punishment for or degree of a felony, then the crime is punishable as a third degree felony. (Fla. Stat. §§ 775.081, 775.082, 775.083.)
In Florida, theft of an automobile, and carrying a handgun without a permit are punishable as a felony of the third degree.
Somehow I just don't think "taking a shot at ditching a cop" should be a third degree felony. A citation with serious restrictions against your license and a buttload of fines, sure...but not a felony. The exception being when fleeing is in conjunction with another felony crime.
Glad they didn't have this bullshit when I got nailed going 125 in a 55.
Well, that was unacceptable.
There are people who go to week long, high intensity shooting classes, get a 4 hour nap, get 10-8, and never have an ND against an actually aggressive subject.
Officer's excuse is lame. Yes, it's stressful. Yes, most people are total asses. But that's when you dig into your ruck, dig deep, and find a little extra and deal with it.
The kid was no angel and a dipshit, but no need for some gunplay.
Officer was calm on the radio, why the brainfart? This is a thinking man's game.
ETA There is a fine line between "articulation" and "bullshit".
Young guys and crotch rockets lead to shenanigans. Once kid realized he was being stopped, he stopped. Most who flee on bikes speed up or take hard angles that a cage just can't keep up with.
I don't care how sorry someone is. If he'd hit that boy in the heart or brainpan; then what?
We're going to kill someone over a speeding ticket?
There's also Due Regard. If it's out of hand, call it off. There is very little worth killing or dying over in my book these days.
JMAO
First question is, was it actually a pursuit or did the biker pull over as soon as he realized he had lights behind him?
Turns out fleeing is a third degree felony,
Felonies of the third degree are the least serious types of felonies in Florida, punishable by up to five years in prison and a fine of up to $5,000. If lawmakers fail to designate the punishment for or degree of a felony, then the crime is punishable as a third degree felony. (Fla. Stat. §§ 775.081, 775.082, 775.083.)
In Florida, theft of an automobile, and carrying a handgun without a permit are punishable as a felony of the third degree.
Somehow I just don't think "taking a shot at ditching a cop" should be a third degree felony. A citation with serious restrictions against your license and a buttload of fines, sure...but not a felony. The exception being when fleeing is in conjunction with another felony crime.
Glad they didn't have this bullshit when I got nailed going 125 in a 55.
Fleeing charges are ones that are typically tacked on with other more serious charges (drugs, grand theft, etc) and usually get dropped for a plea to the higher charges.
Nobody is going to state prison for that felony charge alone.
Trust me Ff, I see well articulated bullshit every day.
Trust me Ff, I see well articulated bullshit every day.
Yep. Lotsa Fish Stories out there to justify contempt of cop or pissing off police arrests.
Oh well....karma is real.
titsonritz
01-26-16, 20:18
Muscle memory my ass, your finger never should have been on the trigger, you choked own up it. It is crap like this that sticks cops with those stupid NY triggers. The dude is lucky he only got it in the arms.
So does this mean they are firing the instructor for incorrect training?
Or are they going to eliminate training to prevent this from happening?
I'd love to see a root cause analysis for this one, with all parties involved present.
BoringGuy45
01-26-16, 21:56
Congratulations, Sgt. Soppland. You've probably got your chief considering 12 lb NY2 triggers for your department's duty weapon.
Moose-Knuckle
01-27-16, 00:49
Muscle memory should have kept his finger OFF the trigger.
Now people are going to blame training for NDs. Wonderful.
This and this.
I can just hear it now; "See those guns just go off in the hands of trained LE professionals, their too dangerous for the average citizen . . . ban . . . ban . . . etc.
Kinda of the opposite of the rastafarian DEA agent who was the only one professional enough to handle his GLOCK fotay before shooting himself through his own thigh.
On another note I don't ride sport bikes and run from the police cause yeah well shit happens.
On another note I don't ride sport bikes and run from the police cause yeah well shit happens.
My default consideration position is pretty much on the LEO side, but if cops shot even 50% of people who did nothing more than see if they can outrun a speeding ticket they would shoot thousands of people every day. Unless the guy on the bike was known to be coming from some kind of violent crime, was a known wanted suspect for a violent crime or at a minimum engaged in threatening actions or actions that looked threatening such as reaching for what might be a firearm, that really shouldn't be a "weapons drawn" situation.
Obviously that guy didn't have enough training. For starters unless you are actually planning to light somebody up, he should have been in some form of low ready. Thankfully he didn't kill the guy on the bike. It's good that he kinda owned up to the accident, but there should never have been an accident and I don't think he should continue as a LEO, he's too much of a liability.
Moose-Knuckle
01-27-16, 01:27
My default consideration position is pretty much on the LEO side, but if cops shot even 50% of people who did nothing more than see if they can outrun a speeding ticket they would shoot thousands of people every day. Unless the guy on the bike was known to be coming from some kind of violent crime, was a known wanted suspect for a violent crime or at a minimum engaged in threatening actions or actions that looked threatening such as reaching for what might be a firearm, that really shouldn't be a "weapons drawn" situation.
Obviously that guy didn't have enough training. For starters unless you are actually planning to light somebody up, he should have been in some form of low ready. Thankfully he didn't kill the guy on the bike. It's good that he kinda owned up to the accident, but there should never have been an accident and I don't think he should continue as a LEO, he's too much of a liability.
Don't take my post as me blaming the victim here, i.e. the biker. IMHO this is a case of two wrongs don't make a right, cause and effect, I Ching and all that.
Don't take my post as me blaming the victim here, i.e. the biker. IMHO this is a case of two wrongs don't make a right, cause and effect, I Ching and all that.
I didn't see you blaming the victim of that "if you put yourself in a position, bad things can happen" and I don't completely disagree with that. I'm just saying in the "bad situation" I think I'd have to actually find fault with the LEO.
Voodoo_Man
01-27-16, 06:02
This is a fairly clear example of a distinct lack of training and a high stress situation.
Is the officer at fault for pulling the trigger? Yes, but only in the frame of mind that a person can only be expected to act as though they are trained.
Im willing to bet every scenario hes ever done has ended in shooting, and thats IF hes done fof.
Don't take my post as me blaming the victim here, i.e. the biker. IMHO this is a case of two wrongs don't make a right, cause and effect, I Ching and all that.
The problem with that is two fold.
1. .gov is basically trying to make everything illegal. ... and doing quite well.
2. .law is training as though every breaking law in progress is a death threat to responding officers.
Not exactly a match made in Heaven.
This is a fairly clear example of a distinct lack of training and a high stress situation.
Is the officer at fault for pulling the trigger? Yes, but only in the frame of mind that a person can only be expected to act as though they are trained.
Im willing to bet every scenario hes ever done has ended in shooting, and thats IF hes done fof.
THIS.
Not enough officers are taught de-escalation or no-shoot scenarios.
Sometimes you gotta holster up and go hands on or create distance and re-assess.
It's not always shootout at the OK corral.
Hell, I don't think enough officers get Kobayashi Maru scenarios. Absolutely No-Win. It can and does happen. You have to accept what you can't change and tossing .40s down range doesn't fix everything.
The gun is a security blanket for a lot of people.
I wish they'd go back where they would whip your ass with the meanest, hate-filled salts, then shove you out and tell the world how rookie you were and say if they whip your ass; they go free, then just do the most to make you feel like a f-ck up until you realized it's all a bullshit mind game and that these people on the street ain't a damn thing. Most are chickenshit and the ones that ain't are nowhere as mean as the people who trained you.
It's worked for thousands of years...why are we f_cking with it now?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-27-16, 21:11
The problem with that is two fold.
1. .gov is basically trying to make everything illegal. ... and doing quite well.
2. .law is training as though every breaking law in progress is a death threat to responding officers.
Not exactly a match made in Heaven.
Interesting claim..... how about a source?
SilverBullet432
01-27-16, 22:20
Damn.. If that ain't a bad shoot I don't know what is.
Interesting claim..... how about a source?
Seriously? ... with the two comments combined, you understood the point I was making. As did everyone else.
http://tinyurl.com/2peplh
Singlestack Wonder
01-28-16, 09:15
Maybe if the guy hadn't led the officer on a 110mph chase this whole situation would have never unfolded...
Another example of poor leo training including both gun handling and self control. This officer shot a defenseless individual who posed zero threat to him or bystanders. The officer should be immediately arrested for attempted manslaughter.
THIS.
Not enough officers are taught de-escalation or no-shoot scenarios.
Sometimes you gotta holster up and go hands on or create distance and re-assess.
It's not always shootout at the OK corral.
Hell, I don't think enough officers get Kobayashi Maru scenarios. Absolutely No-Win. It can and does happen. You have to accept what you can't change and tossing .40s down range doesn't fix everything.
I went through the academy in WA where they would do a lot of FoF in the 2nd half of the 5 month program. The instructors would intentionally get us amped the Fvck up in some scenarios then completely change it, forcing the recruits to notch it down and keep control of themselves. Lot's of simunitions FoF were used and if you cranked off a round(s) you had to try to justify your actions. Sometimes we screwed up and got our asses chewed. Defensive tactics were that way too. Go, go, go then they capitulate to see what you do and how you handle the sudden change in behavior. I also got my ass kicked more than once there. Policing is a thinking man's game, wrapped in a full contact team sport.
I thought that was kind of the nationwide standard until I started talking to cops from other agencies. There are depts out there who, in training, never have a no-shoot or no win scenario.
Watching the video, the dude seriously screwed up. His agency is going to pay out handsomely too. I have no idea how 20 days later you can blame "muscle memory" after shooting 50-100 rounds. He lost control and is lucky he didn't kill that guy.
ramairthree
01-28-16, 10:22
Damn.. If that ain't a bad shoot I don't know what is.
The one where the drunk guy puts his head up from a rolled over car and the cop puts him down like a whack a mole and then picks up his brass.
The one where the drunk guy puts his head up from a rolled over car and the cop puts him down like a whack a mole and then picks up his brass.
That was a phucking execution. The little backstory I have said the driver was drunk, wrecked, and killed his fiancé/wife. I will not say the driver got what he deserved, or that LE should hand out that brand of justice. I will simply say, based on the info. I currently have, I don't feel sorry for the driver.
I went through the academy in WA where they would do a lot of FoF in the 2nd half of the 5 month program. The instructors would intentionally get us amped the Fvck up in some scenarios then completely change it, forcing the recruits to notch it down and keep control of themselves. Lot's of simunitions FoF were used and if you cranked off a round(s) you had to try to justify your actions. Sometimes we screwed up and got our asses chewed. Defensive tactics were that way too. Go, go, go then they capitulate to see what you do and how you handle the sudden change in behavior. I also got my ass kicked more than once there. Policing is a thinking man's game, wrapped in a full contact team sport.
I thought that was kind of the nationwide standard until I started talking to cops from other agencies. There are depts out there who, in training, never have a no-shoot or no win scenario.
Watching the video, the dude seriously screwed up. His agency is going to pay out handsomely too. I have no idea how 20 days later you can blame "muscle memory" after shooting 50-100 rounds. He lost control and is lucky he didn't kill that guy.
Check your PM's for some thoughts.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-28-16, 21:31
Seriously? ... with the two comments combined, you understood the point I was making. As did everyone else.
http://tinyurl.com/2peplh
No. You made a blanket and baseless claim. Own it.
No. You made a blanket and baseless claim. Own it.
Blanket, yes. Hyperbole is blanket and exaggerated. That's how it works. Both statements were blanket.
Baseless... hardly. Young LEOs are a product of video games, tv and movies where action is swift. Current society is such that the growing divide between Police and Citizens is widening. Everyone sees that. That means more danger for the LEO... so what is the solution... be more careful,,, train for the deadly scenario....etc...
I never said it was especially wrong to the point it must be stopped.... I simply said it's not a match made in Heaven. If I had a side to blame, I would actually blame .gov because .law no matter what they do is reactionary.
If you don't believe that one's surroundings trains the mind, that's ok by me. I do believe it does. I believe when people see and hear police vs citizen all day long AND happen to work the job it creates a potential to over sensitize the person. So if they are on a call and get fired up, all of a sudden all that information is utilized. The forum banter, the video games, the tv, OJT, the conversation with the wife, all that trains the mind of the LEO and they become more prone to mistakes. Again, I do feel it is reactionary and that the solutions would be to remove the cause.
It's not Andy of Mayberry any more. In fact turn on tonight's episode of that new show JLo produced. At one point this lady grabs her little child and says get in here before the Police shoot you (very subtle placement in the dialog).... while the police were actually apprehending a bad guy.
MK, made the comment that the video was a bit of an equilibrium. My point was that yes, but society is creating a deeper divide every day and the actions vs reactions will also become greater... thus my initial sentence... "The problem..is two fold". IOW, I was agreeing with him but pointing out or asking, demonstrating via exaggeration...... where will it end, look where it's going, when .gov is creating a society that .law really can't deal with. So it may equal itself out but look what's happening.
You do see that my post was not a documentary right? It was a pondering of where does it end.
Another example of poor leo training including both gun handling and self control. This officer shot a defenseless individual who posed zero threat to him or bystanders. The officer should be immediately arrested for attempted manslaughter.
I think the action has to be "willful" to be "attempted." I don't think he willfully shot the biker, let alone willfully tried to take his life. This is a negligent discharge, and a pretty serious example of one, but I don't think that is a crime. Now I'm pretty certain he is guilty of whatever you call "negligent injury" in legal speak, and you can expect lawsuits and settlements to follow.
Let's try not to hold this cop to a higher standard than we would want to face in a similar situation and let's not not to set a precedent where a ND under stress becomes attempted manslaughter. Certainly if the guy on the bike died, we'd be looking at involuntary manslaughter but that didn't happen thankfully.
The motorcycle rider is partially at fault for engaging in conduct that initiated the incident. That does not in any way justify his getting shot, but if he had not initiated the incident he would not have been shot. Hopefully, he learned something from this experience.
The LEO firing shots and blaming it on muscle memory is nonsense. I cannot think of one LE training scenario in which someone is going to engage the trigger as the hands meet unless they are receiving incoming fire or being assaulted with a deadly weapon. LE training I have attended or taught over the years stressed trigger and muzzle discipline ad nauseam.
I would be interested in knowing the final results of the officers' disciplinary hearing and what additional training they will require him to attend. Employment matters are confidential, but we are living in the age of the internet and Facebook so the information will undoubtedly become available.
I would be interested in knowing the final results of the officers' disciplinary hearing and what additional training they will require him to attend.
After the shooting, he was assigned to administrative duties while the incident was investigated by the Hennepin County Sheriff’s Office. Based on the findings of the investigation, no further disciplinary action was taken, and Soppeland was cleared to return to his duties.
http://kstp.com/news/stories/s4028926.shtml
March 2014
Lonnie Soppeland
was promoted to
sergeant April 19, 2013. Since 2005, Sgt.
Soppeland has worked as a Patrol Officer,
ERU team member, Field Training Officer,
Reserve Coordinator, Radio Focus Group
member and DART team member.
Sgt. Soppeland also spent 20 years serving
our country in the Army National Guard.
Does anyone have specifics about the department's firing training, type, technique, frequency, etc.?
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