View Full Version : What if YouTube gun channels were 100% honest?
AndrewWiggin
01-28-16, 10:54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMe4g1xdHbI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMe4g1xdHbI
Know any outright shills? Did I miss any of the good guys?
skijunkie55
01-28-16, 11:08
I can see this thread going downhill rather quickly...
Good luck with that OP
AndrewWiggin
01-28-16, 11:18
Some folks vehemently defend their shills. People are resistant to having their illusions challenged.
Andrew you state Hickock45 can't be biased. This is not true. NOT saying he is. Simply that your statement is wrong.
If he were to favor a pistol for whatever reason. His showmanship and accuracy regarding that pistol over another that for whatever reason could easily sway viewers. So yes he most certainly -could- be biased and incorporate into his videos.
NOT saying he does that.
Also people that get paid by the principals can still be unbiased. It happens every day.
If I see a YT Star on camera with a manufacturer, I figure no matter what they are doing, I'm getting an infomertial to some degree.
I think people realize that when little girls are making $1M a year opening toys on camera that YouTube is a business.
If you want 100% truth why not simply present the other side of the coin rather than to suggest things may exist. All you have to do is make your video, show your results and link to the video that is in question. YouTube even has a mechanism for that. It's called a Video Response.
I think the way to differentiate is to parse what they're telling you. If all they ever talk is sunshine and roses, it's probably shill BS. If they consistently give you the good, bad and ugly, then they're probably on the up and up...
AndrewWiggin
01-28-16, 12:48
Andrew you state Hickock45 can't be biased. This is not true. NOT saying he is. Simply that your statement is wrong.
If he were to favor a pistol for whatever reason. His showmanship and accuracy regarding that pistol over another that for whatever reason could easily sway viewers. So yes he most certainly -could- be biased and incorporate into his videos.
NOT saying he does that.
Also people that get paid by the principals can still be unbiased. It happens every day.
If I see a YT Star on camera with a manufacturer, I figure no matter what they are doing, I'm getting an infomertial to some degree.
I think people realize that when little girls are making $1M a year opening toys on camera that YouTube is a business.
If you want 100% truth why not simply present the other side of the coin rather than to suggest things may exist. All you have to do is make your video, show your results and link to the video that is in question. YouTube even has a mechanism for that. It's called a Video Response.
The video response isn't a thing anymore. My point boils down to caveat emptor, not a specific criticism of any particular channel. Some folks seem to be completely unaware they are watching what amounts to a commercial. I've seen videos where there were no calibration figures listed for gel or it was out of calibration and, when I pointed out the issue, I was the bad guy. I've spoken with other channels who have been advised by manufacturers that they will not provide test samples unless they can see the video before it is published. Other folks watched an extremely popular channel have constant malfunctions with a firearm, but the published video mentioned nothing of the stoppages.
You're right that Hickok, or anyone for that matter, can have a bias. We're all human. My point was that his bias usually has little influence on the content of his videos because he doesn't focus on substantive, quantitative reviews. He basically shoots stuff and says he likes the gun.
How would it be possible for folks to prove or disprove internet arguments about their favorite gun without linking to videos on YouTube made by random blowhards and shut-ins?
ETA: The one YT channel I view regularly is Forgotten Weapons, not the smoothest production or camera work, but by far the best content. Plus its hard to shill for guns and manufacturers that have been out of business for 50+ years...
My point boils down to caveat emptor, not a specific criticism of any particular channel. Some folks seem to be completely unaware they are watching what amounts to a commercial.
I think your point is you want the record set straight. The only way you can do that, is to do that. Make a good video about a topic. Don't tell everyone what it relates to and why, just do a good video. Use good lighting. Iron the wrinkles out of your gemtech banner.
The Internet is both the dregs of societal misinformation and the 'Field of Dreams'.
Make good videos and the Internet sets itself straight.
Careful what you wish for. Big Brother would looooove to make everyone's Internet experience a perfect little world of one right way. Might even call it Obamanet.
AndrewWiggin
01-28-16, 19:19
There are wrinkles in the Gemtech flag because it lives stuffed in a wad inside a box. I refuse to advertise for them n anything but an ironic fashion. They are lying dirt bags who will never get another cent from me.
ColtSeavers
01-28-16, 20:55
While I appreciate what you do for us and your point...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ_ZgpxZDiI
I thought YouTube was considered entertainment anyway.....
AndrewWiggin
01-28-16, 23:17
Absolutely. My point is bigger than YouTube, though. The gun rags are also just shilling for their advertisers.
There are wrinkles in the Gemtech flag because it lives stuffed in a wad inside a box. I refuse to advertise for them n anything but an ironic fashion. They are lying dirt bags who will never get another cent from me.
If you are going to criticize a firearm or company, you should provide specifics. What did they lie to you about for example? Then, if they are so inclined, they can address your allegations and people can make informed determinations.
AndrewWiggin
01-28-16, 23:56
I thought it was well known. They lied to all of us by telling us that they would rebuild Outback IIs for $150 so they could compete with the user serviceable cans made by other companies but as soon as they stopped making the Outback II, they stopped servicing them too.
I thought it was well known. They lied to all of us by telling us that they would rebuild Outback IIs for $150 so they could compete with the user serviceable cans made by other companies but as soon as they stopped making the Outback II, they stopped servicing them too.
While Outback IIs were in production, did they actually honor the $150 offer or did it never happen? If all they did was discontinue the offer when they discontinued the model, that isn't exactly a lie, it's more of a limited offer.
And honestly if that is all you have, you must hate every firearm and suppressor manufacturer on the planet. Hope you don't own any Colts because long before the Clinton ban they willfully removed bayonet lugs and even stopped offering collapsible stock versions of their carbine because they didn't think civies should have them.
AndrewWiggin
01-29-16, 01:59
They didn't promise to only do it for a while. They made the promise in order to sell units. .22 lr cans fill up quickly and they were losing business to companies who made user serviceable cans. Over they no longer needed to keep their word to sell product, they went back on their word.
They didn't promise to only do it for a while. They made the promise in order to sell units. .22 lr cans fill up quickly and they were losing business to companies who made user serviceable cans. Over they no longer needed to keep their word to sell product, they went back on their word.
Well here's the first problem. An advertised offer is not a promise, it's an advertised offer. If they serviced any cans at all for any period of time, they satisfied their advertised offer and for whatever reason discontinued the offer.
That in no way equates to making, let alone breaking, a promise.
Now if they had advertised Lifetime servicing for the Outback II and then stopped doing it, that would be closer to breaking a promise. And guess what...I have a ton of firearms stuff that was sold with a lifetime warranty and 20 years later they ran out of parts, went out of business or whatever. It happens.
But breaking a promise is also not the same as lying. Lying is when they say the Outback II will fit and function on your AR-15 rifle when in fact it won't. Your issue with Gemtech is a long way from being lied to. Seems more like something that turned out to be a "limited time" offer that you were hoping would be offered for a longer time frame.
stick to the fail compilations on youtube! Its easy to watch, its unbiased, true and fair.
Averageman
01-29-16, 08:49
I'm usually suspect of any review, that's why I come here.
The great thing about M4C is you'll usually get more than one review here on any given piece of equipment and you can filter through the bias (if any) pretty quickly and get a truthful answer.
It isn't so much that someone is actively trying to give a biased review based upon a promoter handing out free stuff to You Tube channels, more than likely it is a fan boy justifying his purchase. Either way within a minute or two, you can easily just move on to something a little more realistic.
When something gets linked here to a post, that can be a make or break point for a piece of gear or a weapon, someone will throw the BS flag pretty quickly.
AndrewWiggin
01-29-16, 10:08
Well here's the first problem. An advertised offer is not a promise, it's an advertised offer. If they serviced any cans at all for any period of time, they satisfied their advertised offer and for whatever reason discontinued the offer.
That in no way equates to making, let alone breaking, a promise.
Now if they had advertised Lifetime servicing for the Outback II and then stopped doing it, that would be closer to breaking a promise. And guess what...I have a ton of firearms stuff that was sold with a lifetime warranty and 20 years later they ran out of parts, went out of business or whatever. It happens.
But breaking a promise is also not the same as lying. Lying is when they say the Outback II will fit and function on your AR-15 rifle when in fact it won't. Your issue with Gemtech is a long way from being lied to. Seems more like something that turned out to be a "limited time" offer that you were hoping would be offered for a longer time frame.
They did, though. On their website and in the gun forums, they promised to service the Outback II forever. People were reluctant to buy a sealed .22lr can and rightly so. Gemtech said that at any time the owner could send the can in and it would be "cleaned". They explained that the process would likely damage the baffles so they would simply replace the baffles with whatever the current model was. When they discontinued the Outback II, they stopped honoring that agreement because the Outback IID was user serviceable. There was a huge backlash and eventually they relented and will now upgrade an Outback II to an Outback IID for almost the retail cost of the can.
Yes, there are YouTube and also gun magazine reviews that are all rosy and sunshiny. Paid content, essentially.
There are also good reviews that are legit (bad ones too)...so you can't fall into the trap of always thinking a good product is bullshit because someone thinks it's a good product, either.
There are also people who attempt to lure with "crossover" interests. Would anyone have watched Cory without Erica? Gun bunnies in general fall into this. I'm not saying that a woman can't be a legitimate source of firearms info, by any means, but emphasis on something other than the information in the video is a clue.
And the "haters" as a counter culture to the sunshiny reviews... They rail against whatever they can...in the guise of "telling it like it is" or "refusing to be sponsored to protect the truth" and appeal to the bread and circuses lynch mobs. "Get the pitchforks boys, Glock doesn't know how to make a handgun", "Magpul doesn't know shit about guns, and I do", "Who would pay for that overpriced XXXX, you're ripping the little guy off", ad nauseum.
I believe that this is all a result of the everyone gets a trophy mentality. Everyone is not an expert. Narcissism does not qualify one as a SME on anything but mirrors and selfies. Combat experience does not make one an expert in firearms or training by default. Everybody wants 15 minutes, but few seem to care about useful and productive information.
Now...There are a lot of good things going on out there in the DIY media world, too. I'm not all black clouds on it. There's more actual information available, more easily, than any time in history, as well.
It is frustrating, however, that sensationalism often gets more attention than good info.
The problem is sorting wheat from chaff, and without at least a solid foundational level of knowledge to help in that discrimination, some people get duped.
All you can do is try to keep it real and fight the bad info with good.
AndrewWiggin
01-29-16, 11:35
Well said, sir. You should totally be in a career that lets you take advantage of your communication skills. Like director level or something.
Seriously, those points were perfectly laid out and I agree in full.
BTW, I would have whored a Magpul logo on my shirt but all the stickers I got with your gear are already on my truck, beer fridge, given to friends, etc.
Outlander Systems
01-29-16, 14:03
Unreasonable expectations will inevitably lead to disappointment.
For me:
1) What does it do
2) How does it do it
3) What does it offer that something else doesn't
4) Is the juice worth the squeeze
Actually, the only YT videos I really watch are foreign channels.
Mostly German, Serbian, or Czech.
They don't have the same stuff we do but actually seem like they are having fun shooting.
Nothing but pissing and moaning on YouTube with guys trying to either do sketch comedy and failing, exploiting their girlfriends, or guys doing Costa grips and head swivels. With lame intros and obnoxious Nu-Metal.
I guess if I were 17 again it'd be cool but otherwise meh.
I like those Japanese gun porn videos where they play that lilting softcore music then show a guy shooting from different angles. Probably a holdover from the 90s but way better than anything else.
Except for Vickers, he always posts something interesting.
AndrewWiggin
01-29-16, 15:42
Yeah, and he'll sell you anything. I mean ANYTHING. Like tactical Crisco.
Whiskey_Bravo
01-29-16, 15:46
Yeah, and he'll sell you anything. I mean ANYTHING. Like tactical Crisco.
Just wanted to post here before everything goes down hill from this point.
skijunkie55
01-29-16, 16:06
If it works, use it. Do I make decisions based on YouTube videos / social media posts from guys like LAV, Travis Haley, Kyle Defoor, etc? Sometimes, sure. Why not use the opinions of people who have spent countless hours and tens of thousands of rounds abusing the gear I'm interested in and going to spend my hard earned money on.
Am I mad that Fireclean is 99% Crisco? Nope. Because it works. I've got 2,000+ rounds suppressed on my BCM 11.5" and it performs exactly as promised.
Is the Eidolon from Raven Concealment a fantastic concealed carry holster for my glock 19? It is for me.
Do I like the glocktriggers skimmer trigger? You bet.
Do I trust the guys who were instrumental in the development / selling of these product to know what they're talking about? That's what it boils down to for me.
They did, though. On their website and in the gun forums, they promised to service the Outback II forever.
Well that would be something entirely different. I'm assuming you have proof of that "forever" service offer.
I won't get into the absurdity of a forever offer because eventually all life on the planet will cease to exist and I suspect Gemtech may close up shop before that event, but I won't get into ridiculous tangents.
Do you have a screen cap of the actual verbatim offer by Gemtech to service Outback II cans with a Lifetime Warranty?
AndrewWiggin
01-29-16, 16:21
Do you own a .22lr silencer? The promise they made wouldn't have had any weight as a sales tactic if they only meant "Well, you know, until we want to sell you something different." They were selling the service as a feature to compete and then left us hanging when they didn't need to compete anymore. I won't give them another dime and I'll tell everyone I meet to avoid them.
AndrewWiggin
01-29-16, 16:32
Did you see the one where LAV was pimping the DP12? Aside from the overall ridiculousness of the product, he attempted to "prove" its reliability by pretending to replicate the conditions in which GY6 saw malfunctions. The angle that he used was completely different, though.
Oh, and his recent "Do you know who I am" rent on Facebook was pretty funny, too. Sounds like he got mad they would kiss his ass for an endorsement.
At this point, you're kinda overturning your own thesis and turning it inward.
Outlander Systems
01-29-16, 16:47
Dude. Links to Nihongi/Japanese gun porn!!!!
I had no idea, and from your description sounds awesome.
Hook me up. I wanna see somez.
Actually, the only YT videos I really watch are foreign channels.
Mostly German, Serbian, or Czech.
They don't have the same stuff we do but actually seem like they are having fun shooting.
Nothing but pissing and moaning on YouTube with guys trying to either do sketch comedy and failing, exploiting their girlfriends, or guys doing Costa grips and head swivels. With lame intros and obnoxious Nu-Metal.
I guess if I were 17 again it'd be cool but otherwise meh.
I like those Japanese gun porn videos where they play that lilting softcore music then show a guy shooting from different angles. Probably a holdover from the 90s but way better than anything else.
Except for Vickers, he always posts something interesting.
AndrewWiggin
01-29-16, 16:48
At this point, you're kinda overturning your own thesis and turning it inward.
¿Que?
Dude. Links to Nihongi/Japanese gun porn!!!!
I had no idea, and from your description sounds awesome.
Hook me up. I wanna see somez.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kafkanishian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzgFWlpJS0w
Enjoy. It's pretty kakkoi desu.
skijunkie55
01-29-16, 17:02
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kafkanishian
Enjoy. It's pretty kakkoi desu.
I don't know what is happening... But now I'm going to watch more.
I knoooow...
Get some brandy, light a scented candle, watch it on like playlist in the dark. It's actually soothing.
Like, I'm a weirdo but I like 80s/90s porn music. Like on its merit. I wish they'd put out a CD or MP3 of it. And mixing it with older, pre-ban guns just makes it more deviant.
What if the moon were made of Creme Cheeze? What if I were taller, better looking and had more hair? What if I were were married to a supermodel?
What if the moon were made of Creme Cheeze? What if I were taller, better looking and had more hair? What if I were were married to a supermodel?
If is the middle word in life
ColtSeavers
01-29-16, 17:11
What if the moon were made of Creme Cheeze? What if I were taller, better looking and had more hair? What if I were were married to a supermodel?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryDOy3AosBw
AndrewWiggin
01-29-16, 17:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryDOy3AosBw
Lol, that's exactly what I was thinking.
bullittmcqueen
01-29-16, 18:05
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kafkanishian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzgFWlpJS0w
Enjoy. It's pretty kakkoi desu.
Holy crap, I think I just found a new direction for my YouTube. Now which one of you speaks German and wants to do a voice-over?
Do you own a .22lr silencer? The promise they made wouldn't have had any weight as a sales tactic if they only meant "Well, you know, until we want to sell you something different." They were selling the service as a feature to compete and then left us hanging when they didn't need to compete anymore. I won't give them another dime and I'll tell everyone I meet to avoid them.
No I don't know much about silencers and stuff. But it sounds like you are back peddling now. So...
Do you have a screen cap of the actual verbatim offer by Gemtech to service Outback II cans with a Lifetime Warranty?
Because if ALL you have is they discontinued to service Outback IIs after they sold them, then you have a very petty complaint which you have promoted as deliberate lies on the part of Gemtech and as part of a disingenuous hate campaign. Which is ironic given how you are all about "truth" and such.
You might get more traction on TOS. That is unless you can provide examples of Gemtech making Lifetime Warranty guarantees for the Outback II.
When I bought my HK P7 I think it came with a Lifetime Warranty, do you think they might honor it? Are they liars and cheaters if they don't?
When I bought my HK P7 I think it came with a Lifetime Warranty, do you think they might honor it? Are they liars and cheaters if they don't?
WhatchutalkinboutWILLIS?
You saying they're not gonna fix my P7's?:mad:
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s11/v37/p762233898-4.jpg
AndrewWiggin
01-29-16, 19:33
They have, of course, changed their website, but it doesn't take a lot of digging to find their promises in the silencer forums. Just one example:
https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=20&t=299870
WARRANTY STATEMENT
Our "warranty" has been practiced since our personnel started in the suppressor business in 1976, in a time before legalese and when a handshake and this simple statement sufficed: "If a Gemtech product breaks and it's your fault, we'll fix it for a fair price in a timely manner. If it's our fault, we'll fix it quickly at no charge." This policy born of pride in craftsmanship and honor has served us and our clients well for over two decades and will continue in Gemtech's future.
From your link....
***GEMTECH will take in any older model OUTBACK series suppressor, gut it, and upgrade to the most current set of baffle internals for $140, which includes return shipping to you. If you have the older model pre-titanium threadmount, you may ask for the new mount as well. Your serialized component (main tube) remains the same. No Form 5 is necessary, just a repair letter. We generally have this turned around within 30 days, usually quicker than that. This way you don't have to mess around with cleaning or lead disposal. If you prefer, you may request that we can leave the adhesive off of the endcaps during re-assembly so you cay take it apart yourself in the future and lovingly scrub the baffles to your hearts content.
I honestly don't see what the issue is.
AndrewWiggin
01-29-16, 20:03
Then you're being intentionally obtuse:
"..if it EVER does fill up, send it to us for the upgrade, get all new baffles, and start over fresh with the take-apart option."
(emphasis added)
So Firefly, do ummm, do things get a little weird if a Knights SR-25 shows up in a Japanese YouTube video like the one you showed?
Just asking. Trying to complete my mental image.
Then you're being intentionally obtuse:
"..if it EVER does fill up, send it to us for the upgrade, get all new baffles, and start over fresh with the take-apart option."
(emphasis added)
Ok, if you want to be a jerk about it, you can piss off. Good luck with vids.
So Firefly, do ummm, do things get a little weird if a Knights SR-25 shows up in a Japanese YouTube video like the one you showed?
Just asking. Trying to complete my mental image.
Weird? Nope.
Although when the nerdy kid found the SR-25 in Highschool of the Dead, I did squee.
Although a 24" Match Rifle with porn music would be most interesting.
Then you're being intentionally obtuse:
"..if it EVER does fill up, send it to us for the upgrade, get all new baffles, and start over fresh with the take-apart option."
(emphasis added)
You may have finally reached China, my friend.
The HK analogy was sound. Past a certain point, legacy weapons/etc simply cannot be fixed if tooling etc has become obsolete.
HK even says on their website that they cannot service legacy weapons.
After a certain point, you reach diminishing returns.
Who do you take your Plymouth Satellite to?
Or your Edsel?
If I felt up to stomaching looking at Michelle's ugly mug; I'd post up the "why u mad tho?" macro
Anything NFA is an investment. But, all markets are fickle. From what the links said, Gemtech would do something. It may be at some cost, but I'm sure you would have a suppressor.
Going on this great jeremiad against a company over this smacks of the stapler guy from Office Space.
I have a Nokia flip phone. It had a warranty. The dude at Radio Shack laughed at me when I wanted a USB cord for it.
Now Radio Shack is gone. Same with Circuit City.
C'est la guerre.
Weird? Nope.
Although when the nerdy kid found the SR-25 in Highschool of the Dead, I did squee.
Although a 24" Match Rifle with porn music would be most interesting.
Brother, not so sure about riding down for lunch, I mean, you know.....right now are you wearing nothing but a pair of cheap black nylon socks and a mustache trimmed to Rhett Butler standards? I'm down with Aunt Peg but not Uncle Ned.
AndrewWiggin
01-29-16, 20:52
It's the way and the reason they made the change. They promised a service for the future and then went back on their word when they no longer needed to bolster the weakness of that product.
Brother, not so sure about riding down for lunch, I mean, you know.....right now are you wearing nothing but a pair of cheap black nylon socks and a mustache trimmed to Rhett Butler standards? I'm down with Aunt Peg but not Uncle Ned.
No. Adidas shorts and a T shirt I got from Little 5 Points like 10 years ago. No socks cuz I'm chilling at the crib.
Mustaches are gross.
I'm just....I'm just a complicated guy. But you knew that.
It's the way and the reason they made the change. They promised a service for the future and then went back on their word when they no longer needed to bolster the weakness of that product.
Andrew, not sure I understand, this seems to be the basis for your complaint: I thought it was well known. They lied to all of us by telling us that they would rebuild Outback IIs for $150 so they could compete with the user serviceable cans made by other companies but as soon as they stopped making the Outback II, they stopped servicing them too.
I don't have a gem-tech, but I found this from 2013:
Beginning March 2011, GEMTECH will accept older OUTBACK and OUTBACK-II model suppressors to be refurbished with [B]new baffles and endcap to make it user-serviceable.
So apparently sometime between 2013 and December 2014 they discontinued the program and replaced it with this, correct?
December 14, 2014: Several years ago, Gemtech, the well known Idaho-based suppressor manufacturer, was offering upgrades to their popular series of Outback suppressors. Unlike typical centerfire suppressors, lead fouling with .22lr can be extreme, and if you have a sealed can your cleaning options are limited. Essentially they were taking the older sealed suppressors and modifying them to be user serviceable, as with the Outback IID. This program was suspended some time ago–but now it’s back and better than ever.
BLUF: Starting tomorrow, December 15th, you can send your own suppressor in for the upgrade. Even if you already have an Outback IID or Alpine it’s something to consider–it’s a complete no-brainer if you have an Outback or Outback II. Cost is $249 and estimated turnaround time is 3-6 weeks.
With the upgrade, the serialized tube is left intact, mars and scars and all, and the guts are completely removed and discarded. This is done in a newly environmentally sealed facility because, as you may imagine, a lot of lead gets into the air when you crank these babies open and strip out the old baffles.
New box, new baffle stack, new suppressor pouch made by Grey Ghost Gear, specialty patch, target, and instruction manual for a GM-22. While the IOU upgrade isn’t exactly like a GM-22, it’s close enough that all of the same instructions apply.
I called up Gemtech and confirmed that indeed you can run .22lr, .22wmr, .17hmr, and .17m2 through the new G-CORE, while maintaining the same weight as the original Outback II. Depending on what can you send in, you may end up with something even lighter than you started with.
With the upgrade, you also have the added ability to run the suppressor wet (with .22lr only). The same standard advice applies: use water or ablative like wire pull gel and don’t go nuts with it. Running wet, FRP (First Round Pop) was significantly reduced and the suppressor was incredibly quiet.
http://www.recoilweb.com/review-new-gemtech-22lr-suppressor-upgrades-54797.html
The OUTACK II:
• Caliber: .22 LR
• Sound Reduction: 39.4 dB
The GM-22:
• Sound Reduction: 36-39 dB
• Caliber: 22LR, 22WMR, 17HMR (not rated for 17WSM)
• Full Auto Rated (for 22LR only)
So you are getting essentially a NEW GM-22, with the addition of 1) wet first round; 2) ability to fire .22WMR and .17HMR; 3) full-auto rated.
None of which the Outback II you originally bought has, without have to get a new stamp. The $249.00 for the rebuild is 109.00 more expensive then the MOST BASIC cleaning/upgrade they originally offered, and is $145.00 cheaper than the GM-22 you are essentially receiving after the upgrade. You mentioned the upgrade was NEARLY the retail cost of the original OUTBACK II, actually $249.00 versus $325.00 is a reduction of 23.49%.
I hope that after looking at it in this manner, you see it the same way I do…not bad.
No. Adidas shorts and a T shirt I got from Little 5 Points like 10 years ago. No socks cuz I'm chilling at the crib.
Mustaches are gross.
I'm just....I'm just a complicated guy. But you knew that.
LOL so you're saying a lot of layers to the onion?
They have, of course, changed their website, but it doesn't take a lot of digging to find their promises in the silencer forums. Just one example:
https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=20&t=299870
OK, looks like Gemtech posted this.
***GEMTECH will take in any older model OUTBACK series suppressor, gut it, and upgrade to the most current set of baffle internals for $140, which includes return shipping to you. If you have the older model pre-titanium threadmount, you may ask for the new mount as well. Your serialized component (main tube) remains the same. No Form 5 is necessary, just a repair letter. We generally have this turned around within 30 days, usually quicker than that. This way you don't have to mess around with cleaning or lead disposal. If you prefer, you may request that we can leave the adhesive off of the endcaps during re-assembly so you cay take it apart yourself in the future and lovingly scrub the baffles to your hearts content.
In the thousands and thousands of OUTBACKs we've delivered year after year, we rarely see them come back "filled up", so there are certainly people well-served without need to take them apart. If you're an honest high-round count shooter putting tens of thousands of rounds downrange (and not just a theoretical one), I generally would advise that you shoot the snot out of the OUTBACK, and if it ever does fill up, send it to us for the upgrade, get all new baffles, and start over fresh with the take-apart option.
I don't see ANYTHING that states this is a "forever offer" or a "lifetime warranty." I also don't see a "promise" of perpetual service. I see an offer to service Outback IIs for a "non specified" time frame and probably with the belief in 2009 that they would manufacture the Outback II for some time.
But I also wonder what they would tell me if I called Monday about getting an Outback II serviced. I assume you actually tried that and were told by somebody that they will no longer service an Outback II. I also assume you have no idea about THIS.
http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/Improved-Outback-Upgrade-IOU-Program-6p1137.htm
The GEMTECH Improved Outback Upgrade (IOU) Program improves all Outback series suppressors - the original Outback, Outback-II, Outback-IID, and the Outback-IIT - as well as our Alpine and Oasis-P suppressors to the NEW G-core monocore design. Not only does it work on all of the Outback suppressors, but it is also compatible with some competitor suppressors.
So looks like you actually CAN send them YOUR Outback for service or upgrade. What a bunch of FOS liars and cheaters. Perhaps you can mention this service option on your TRUTH video.
It's the way and the reason they made the change. They promised a service for the future and then went back on their word when they no longer needed to bolster the weakness of that product.
Except none of that is actually true and you can get your original Outback, Outback II, etc. serviced or upgraded right now.
http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/Improved-Outback-Upgrade-IOU-Program-6p1137.htm
It is just a more current offer than the one made back in 2009. Btw those assholes at Ford won't work on my Model T. Ford sucks, they don't even still make parts, what a bunch of liars and scammers.
Then you're being intentionally obtuse:
"..if it EVER does fill up, send it to us for the upgrade, get all new baffles, and start over fresh with the take-apart option."
(emphasis added)
And just for fun.
http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/Improved-Outback-Upgrade-IOU-Program-6p1137.htm
I'm sure this offer will still be good in 2092 so feel free to buy Outback suppressors for your grandkids. Lifetime Infinity Guarantee due to the use of the word "ever" you know.
AndrewWiggin
01-29-16, 22:28
They have started and stopped service several times in the intervening years. There was significant backlash to the decision and they eventually decided to start taking money again for service, albeit at a dramatically higher price than originally promise, after seeing how much money other companies were making on jailbreaking Outback IIs. I'll be giving my money to one of those other companies.
They have started and stopped service several times in the intervening years. There was significant backlash to the decision and they eventually decided to start taking money again for service, albeit at a dramatically higher price than originally promise, after seeing how much money other companies were making on jailbreaking Outback IIs. I'll be giving my money to one of those other companies.
Oh my god, you really need to stop.
They discontinued your model.
They eventually stopped servicing your discontinued model.
This isn't a marketing response to a "internet backlash of guys who bought a $100 suppressor. This is a result of them making a NEW suppressor aka the Mist 22 which just happens to be the same profile as previous models. And because they aren't "internot liers", they are willing to upgrade any of their previous suppressors since they have one in production again.
This isn't the first "service and upgrade" option they offered, it won't be the last. And let me tell you the future, when they eventually discontinue the Mist 22, they will stop offering upgrades and service packages for that one as well. But when the one day make the AWHU (Andrew Wiggens Hates Us) .22 suppressor they will probably, once again, offer a service upgrade package so everyone with an old school mist suppressor can have the new AWHU model.
This isn't about people crying on the internet, this is about Gemtech making suppressors, coming up with newer designs and discontinuing old models. Sorta like how you can't send your 1909 model Maxim suppressor to Maxim firearms and get it worked on, and it's not because Hiram Percy Maxim is a lying dick.
Do you really think you can send your 1984 FN LAR rifle to FN USA and they will have the parts to service it? Even though it was sold with a Lifetime warranty, FN no longer supports FAL rifles and they don't have the tooling and parts to work on them even if they wanted to. So does that make FN a bunch of promise breaking liars?
I'd explain more but I need to go find ammo for my freaking Gyrojet pistol. Seems those assclowns stopped making rocket bullets.
AndrewWiggin
01-29-16, 23:19
Yeah, you're right. Their decision to reverse their earlier stance and resume servicing those cans probably wasn't in response to customer feedback. It was simply because they realized that other companies were making money jailbreaking their cans.
I'm sorry it upsets you so much, but they were dishonest and I won't give them any more money.
Yeah, you're right. Their decision to reverse their earlier stance and resume servicing those cans probably wasn't in response to customer feedback. It was simply because they realized that other companies were making money jailbreaking their cans.
I'm sorry it upsets you so much, but they were dishonest and I won't give them any more money.
It doesn't upset me in the least. The only thing that bothers me, and even this isn't a large concern personally, is that we usually don't have much of this retarded misrepresentation on this forum.
I honestly don't think Gemtech gives a damn what people do with their suppressors so long as it's safe. I especially don't think they are chewing their nails over profits, or lost profits, related to .22 lr suppressors.
And to correct you again, they didn't reverse their stance. You seem to be willfully and deliberately obtuse to this fact.
They have had many "service and upgrade" opportunities. These haven't come and gone in relation to "ZOMG! Somebody Else is Making a .22 can and we are losing pennies!!!!!" or "OH THE NOES PEOPLE ARE CALLING US NAMES ON THE INTERNOT!@!!!", they are directly related to the introduction of a new generation suppressor.
They have had the Outback, the Outback II, the Outback IID and now the Mist 22. And each time they debuted a new suppressor it seems like they offered an "upgrade" service. When these things come and go, it isn't betrayal, it's not a broken promise, it's not a lie...it's an evolution of their suppressor line.
Nothing more, nothing less.
But you seem to be taking that very, very personal. I bet you still egg the house of the girl who never called you back in high school.
AndrewWiggin
01-30-16, 01:20
They made a promise and broke it. That's not rocket surgery.
Steyr has OWNED. Close thread.
Yes, there are YouTube and also gun magazine reviews that are all rosy and sunshiny. Paid content, essentially.
There are also good reviews that are legit (bad ones too)...so you can't fall into the trap of always thinking a good product is bullshit because someone thinks it's a good product, either.
There are also people who attempt to lure with "crossover" interests. Would anyone have watched Cory without Erica? Gun bunnies in general fall into this. I'm not saying that a woman can't be a legitimate source of firearms info, by any means, but emphasis on something other than the information in the video is a clue.
And the "haters" as a counter culture to the sunshiny reviews... They rail against whatever they can...in the guise of "telling it like it is" or "refusing to be sponsored to protect the truth" and appeal to the bread and circuses lynch mobs. "Get the pitchforks boys, Glock doesn't know how to make a handgun", "Magpul doesn't know shit about guns, and I do", "Who would pay for that overpriced XXXX, you're ripping the little guy off", ad nauseum.
I believe that this is all a result of the everyone gets a trophy mentality. Everyone is not an expert. Narcissism does not qualify one as a SME on anything but mirrors and selfies. Combat experience does not make one an expert in firearms or training by default. Everybody wants 15 minutes, but few seem to care about useful and productive information.
Now...There are a lot of good things going on out there in the DIY media world, too. I'm not all black clouds on it. There's more actual information available, more easily, than any time in history, as well.
It is frustrating, however, that sensationalism often gets more attention than good info.
The problem is sorting wheat from chaff, and without at least a solid foundational level of knowledge to help in that discrimination, some people get duped.
All you can do is try to keep it real and fight the bad info with good.
Here here. :thank_you2:
They made a promise and broke it. That's not rocket surgery.
Lol. You are acting like a little kid screaming "forever infinity" because you don't seem to understand how the real world works. Again, it was not a "promise", you keep using that word but I don't think you understand what it means.
They made an "offer" and it was a limited one. I'll see if I can dumb this down enough for you.
If you EVER (for the duration of this offer) need service, etc. etc. It wasn't a freaking wedding vow. Nobody cheated on you. More importantly, the offer was made several times, with each new suppressor generation. If this was really important, you could have gotten your suppressor squared away with each successive offer.
More importantly, you still can, you can upgrade the damn thing right now. I bet they will even reconfigure it to a II-D if that is your preference because it is STILL in production so they will have parts. But none of that matters because you seem to be interested only in crying about how they broke your heart when they broke their word and really you should take the kindergarten crap to TOS.
But we are actually in agreement regarding Gemtech suppressors and you. I honestly and truly don't think you should ever buy another Gemtech product again for the rest of your life. You are clearly way too sensitive to deal with any manufacturer who regularly updates and evolves their product and discontinues older models and doesn't offer perpetual service for their discontinued models.
I'm actually amazed you are on the internet, I didn't think Windows 3.1 could do that.
So here is your solution, you should form 1 campbells soup cans. The basic design hasn't changed much in decades and it's a good bet that "Old Fashioned Chicken Noodle" will still be a mainstay product in 2050. Just drop in some baffles and devise a coupler and you will have the closest thing you will ever get to your "forever" suppressor.
It can work...you'll be happy...I PROMISE.
S=AUG, I fear you're being played.
This entire thread is probably more about self-promotion of his duct taped "For Rent" sign and the tactical beard. :suicide: For the record, I do not own a tactical beard.
Keep your day job Andrew.
skijunkie55
01-30-16, 07:53
S=AUG, I fear you're being played.
This entire thread is probably more about self-promotion of his duct taped "For Rent" sign and the tactical beard. :suicide: For the record, I do not own a tactical beard.
Keep your day job Andrew.
I had that feeling to... All about them YouTube views.
AndrewWiggin
01-30-16, 08:21
No, the "offer" as you put it was raised in the forums by company representatives every time someone suggested that a user serviceable can might be a better choice. The "offer" didn't expire decades later, but as soon as they no longer needed to trick people into buying an inferior can.
You aren't going to talk me into giving money to a dishonest company.
Outlander Systems
01-30-16, 08:24
I love you, man.
Wifey, "Are you watching porn?"
Outlander: "Yeah, baby. Gun porn."
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kafkanishian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzgFWlpJS0w
Enjoy. It's pretty kakkoi desu.
Outlander Systems
01-30-16, 08:37
To the dude rending garments and gnashing teeth:
Life goes on. I don't expect Relm to service my old PRC-127. It ain't happenin' homey.
When my 1991 Mustang had its water pump go out, I didn't drive it up to Dearborn.
When I discovered my barrel wasn't dimpled under its low-pro gas block, I didn't send it back: I ****ing fixed it.
I am ready to slice my eyeballs and suck start a shotgun over trying to get my Windows Vista machine to play nice with some of my radios. Guess what, bro? I'm either going to have to upgrade my computer, my OS, or hang it up and tap out.
Unbelievable.
AndrewWiggin
01-30-16, 09:06
That's fine. You're a grownup and can do with your money as you wish. When a company makes a commitment in order to sell a thing and then goes back on their word two years later, I'm not going to give them money again. If you want to buy silencers from them, go right ahead, but we aren't talking about a product that has been out of production for twenty years.
Andrew, I tried to see it from your perspective and, sorry guy, just doesn't work. What I would do is count the votes, right now it is one (you) against, well everyone else who has posted. Your position is untenable.
AndrewWiggin
01-30-16, 15:27
Oh, ok. I'll spend my money with a company I don't trust because you said so. Never mind that you don't own a silencer and weren't in the silencer forums at the time to hear their repeated assurances that it's okay to buy their sealed silencer because they'll take care of you.
I didn't actually ask whether you thought my decision is reasonable. I'm also not inclined to tell you what to do with your money.
MountainRaven
01-30-16, 16:01
"It is well to remember that there are several items of personal use in which economy of acquisition is probably not a good idea. Prominent in this regard are parachutes, tires and personal weapons."
I feel like, "NFA firearms," should probably be added to Colonel Cooper's list, here.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kafkanishian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzgFWlpJS0w
Enjoy. It's pretty kakkoi desu.
Fuaiafurai-san, you forgot to use generous quantities of emoji and tildes in your post!
AndrewWiggin
01-30-16, 16:45
"It is well to remember that there are several items of personal use in which economy of acquisition is probably not a good idea. Prominent in this regard are parachutes, tires and personal weapons."
I feel like, "NFA firearms," should probably be added to Colonel Cooper's list, here.
Fuaiafurai-san, you forgot to use generous quantities of emoji and tildes in your post!
Excellent point. Knowing what I do now I would not have purchased that silencer.
Oh, ok. I'll spend my money with a company I don't trust because you said so. Never mind that you don't own a silencer and weren't in the silencer forums at the time to hear their repeated assurances that it's okay to buy their sealed silencer because they'll take care of you.
I didn't actually ask whether you thought my decision is reasonable. I'm also not inclined to tell you what to do with your money.
Yep, if you don't want input, how about not posting on the internet? I tried to be constructive, so did SteyrAug. Good day.
Oh, ok. I'll spend my money with a company I don't trust because you said so. Never mind that you don't own a silencer and weren't in the silencer forums at the time to hear their repeated assurances that it's okay to buy their sealed silencer because they'll take care of you.
I didn't actually ask whether you thought my decision is reasonable. I'm also not inclined to tell you what to do with your money.
For the reading impaired, I actually told you specifically that you SHOULD NOT buy anything from Gemtech and I stated the reasons why.
And yeah, I don't know much about them silencer things. But of course this entire discussion has nothing to do with whether or not you should buy anything, this is another diversion of yours. This has to do with you making unfounded allegations of Gemtech "lying to everyone" and then failing to support your baseless nonsense.
S=AUG, I fear you're being played.
This entire thread is probably more about self-promotion of his duct taped "For Rent" sign and the tactical beard. :suicide: For the record, I do not own a tactical beard.
Keep your day job Andrew.
I don't know if he is generating hits for his video or not, really don't care. But he is doing an excellent job of demonstrating "truth" as it relates to people who make youtube videos. The irony is stunning.
AndrewWiggin
01-30-16, 21:31
You were hoping that I couldn't produce any proof and then got your panties in a twist when I showed you a post from a Gemtech rep saying exactly what I told you they said. If you owned silencers you might have a little more insight. A promise to service the can for only a year or two would have been meaningless. As Kel stated in the thread, he believed that it would take a long time to fill up a can, if an average user could do it at all. Nevertheless, he promised to clean it if the user "ever" filled it up.
AndrewWiggin
01-30-16, 21:34
I don't know if he is generating hits for his video or not, really don't care. But he is doing an excellent job of demonstrating "truth" as it relates to people who make youtube videos. The irony is stunning.
From this site? No. The video is doing okay, but this site doesn't produce enough traffic to matter. I usually stick to the Terminal Ballistics sub forum because general discussion doesn't offer the most enlightening discussion. This thread is a reminder of that.
SeriousStudent
01-30-16, 22:29
Enough bitching.
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