View Full Version : Eotech-- Some Questions, Documented Failures
BushmasterFanBoy
08-14-08, 18:39
I'd like to know a bit more about the Eotech, in all its glory, as well as its faults. And try to compile some solid information about them, mostly through 1st hand accounts of pros and cons.
Lately, there has been a lot of criticism of Eotechs, and I think it is fair to say that the Aimpoint is a better general use optic. That said, many shooters such as myself consider our level of knowledge and attentiveness to our weapon to be to the degree that these maintenance concerns do not present any significant challenge.
First and foremost in my mind is the performance of an Eotech. The reticule allows for quick acquisition and provides a solution to short range speed, and long range precision. This perceived performance edge is a prime reason that many choose the Eotech, including some top shooters, like Kyle Lamb. Of course there are just as many Anti-Eotech instructors, like LAV for example.
At the heart of this problem is that Eotechs are "less reliable". This is first and foremost an issue of battery life. Eotechs have significantly reduced battery life, as well as auto shut off features that are meant to deal with this, that also introduce more problems. Yet, in the eyes of certain shooters, these are non-issues, as everyone can replace a battery when they clean their rifle, or push a button every 8 hours to restore the auto shut off timer. Aimpoint wins out of simplicity yet again, but the single dot reticule and tube construction are still viewed as a limitation in some eyes.
Yet, it should be known that there are non-battery related reliability issues with Eotechs, with numerous incidents of failing optics popping up over the net, particularly at some serious use forums, such as M4C, and even on TOS lately.
I'd like if every person can comment with firsthand accounts of Eotechs failing, what the specific failure was, the model of the optic, conditions of use, type of batteries if possible, and most importantly DOCUMENTATION. Firsthand accounts from reputable people will be enough, but pictures and images will always be concrete.
I'm trying to sort the real incidents from the hearsay, and IMHO, this could be very beneficial is revealing just how reliable or unreliable Eotechs are. ONLY FIRSTHAND ACCOUNTS! There is too much hearsay on optics failures and it needs to be stopped. I hope that we can get to the bottom of these issues and improve the standard of quality for the shooting community as a whole.
I have the 512, which takes two AA batteries. Get yourself some fresh Energizer Lithium batteries and you will have a long lasting power supply. Store a couple extras in your accessory storage compartments (pistol grip, buttstock, vertical grip). I can't speak to the durability under rough field conditions, but I do know they advertise you will get a usable reticle even with dirty and broken optics. Remember what Eotechs cost compared to Aimpoint. Anything can be made more rugged with a trade-off of cost and weight.
I think Eothechs are good performers and reasonably rugged. Coincidentally, I had mine out at the range today on my Bushy M4gery. Made for close quarter quick target acquisition, but easily precise enough for center mass hits out to 100 yds or so.
K
BushmasterFanBoy
08-14-08, 19:43
I have the 512, which takes two AA batteries. Get yourself some fresh Energizer Lithium batteries and you will have a long lasting power supply. Store a couple extras in your accessory storage compartments (pistol grip, buttstock, vertical grip). I can't speak to the durability under rough field conditions, but I do know they advertise you will get a usable reticle even with dirty and broken optics. Remember what Eotechs cost compared to Aimpoint. Anything can be made more rugged with a trade-off of cost and weight.
I think Eothechs are good performers and reasonably rugged. Coincidentally, I had mine out at the range today on my Bushy M4gery. Made for close quarter quick target acquisition, but easily precise enough for center mass hits out to 100 yds or so.
K
Clearly I'm already in this camp. I don't see any reason for a few spare batteries to become an issue, or for a user to be able to override the auto shut-off.
What I'm more interested in is non-battery life related Eotech failures, what type of failures they are, and how often they truly occur.
TackleBerry
08-14-08, 23:30
All it takes is one bad experience with a site to make someone hate it forever. Also, some of these instructors like to be sales man on the side so they may not be totally honest about their dislike for a one brand compared to another.
I've got the 512 AA batt. version also and love it. I've read about EOTech's failing but it usually is right out of the box. May just be the one's that got past QC.
<---Total internet commando.
Here's another question that falls into this thread.
How many aimpoints do you guys see failing in classes or through reading AAR's on websites?
Not as many AP's appear to fail as Eotechs.
Obviously, this is no substitute for real research and statistics but word of mouth does count for something.
By failure, i dont mean, oh crap, my batteries died. I mean, dead sight, period, end of story. The pros and cons of the specs of each model can be debated until we are all blue in the face.
I wonder if a running tally on just this forum alone would prove anything? Probably not but i would really like to see how many people here have had optics fail on them.
PRGGodfather
08-15-08, 01:46
My EO552 Rev. F was flawless. It was upgrade from my C-More Tactical, since the 552 had easier battery access and allegedly, one could find the reticle even if the only 25% of the glass was left in the sight. It was a worthwhile upgrade in 2005.
Never had a problem with it.
Yet, several of the EO512.F's we use at work had reticles that got stuck, and a hard slap on the housing would break them loose. My buddy in a nearby allied agency had the same experience. It would seem there is something about the internals, which did not engender much confidence for me.
One of my range staff ran an ML3 in Iraq for two tours and still swears by it. Based on his recommendation, I researched the M4 and liked the 50% reduction in AA battery usage -- and its nth% increase in battery life.
I gave my EO552.F to my brother, who needed an RDS for a Patrol Rifle Class he attended in Nevada, where he, too -- is a cop.
I run both an M4S and T1 now, and both have been perfect. Definitely less clutter on the sight picture, which I prefer -- but that's just personal choice. (I got used to mildots, and never had a reason to change, too, FWIW...)
Overall, the EO is a decent value and well within financial reach for many Police Departments. Yet, nearly all of the instructors I know who personally owned EO's have since switched to the M4S.
Perhaps we just like following the trends...
BushmasterFanBoy
08-15-08, 02:21
<---Total internet commando.
Here's another question that falls into this thread.
How many aimpoints do you guys see failing in classes or through reading AAR's on websites?
Not as many AP's appear to fail as Eotechs.
Obviously, this is no substitute for real research and statistics but word of mouth does count for something.
By failure, i dont mean, oh crap, my batteries died. I mean, dead sight, period, end of story. The pros and cons of the specs of each model can be debated until we are all blue in the face.
I wonder if a running tally on just this forum alone would prove anything? Probably not but i would really like to see how many people here have had optics fail on them.
This is what I'm trying to find out. For instance, someone sees your post and assumes Eotechs fail. They go on to post somewhere else that Eotechs are unreliable. Meanwhile, there is no first person documentation for this.
Eotechs can and do fail. What I'm trying to do is compile a list so that the causes and frequency can be readily examined. And FWIW, I own Aimpoint too.
Robb Jensen
08-15-08, 06:23
I'd like to know a bit more about the Eotech, in all its glory, as well as its faults. And try to compile some solid information about them, mostly through 1st hand accounts of pros and cons.
Lately, there has been a lot of criticism of Eotechs, and I think it is fair to say that the Aimpoint is a better general use optic. That said, many shooters such as myself consider our level of knowledge and attentiveness to our weapon to be to the degree that these maintenance concerns do not present any significant challenge.
First and foremost in my mind is the performance of an Eotech. The reticule allows for quick acquisition and provides a solution to short range speed, and long range precision. This perceived performance edge is a prime reason that many choose the Eotech, including some top shooters, like Kyle Lamb. Of course there are just as many Anti-Eotech instructors, like LAV for example.
At the heart of this problem is that Eotechs are "less reliable". This is first and foremost an issue of battery life. Eotechs have significantly reduced battery life, as well as auto shut off features that are meant to deal with this, that also introduce more problems. Yet, in the eyes of certain shooters, these are non-issues, as everyone can replace a battery when they clean their rifle, or push a button every 8 hours to restore the auto shut off timer. Aimpoint wins out of simplicity yet again, but the single dot reticule and tube construction are still viewed as a limitation in some eyes.
Yet, it should be known that there are non-battery related reliability issues with Eotechs, with numerous incidents of failing optics popping up over the net, particularly at some serious use forums, such as M4C, and even on TOS lately.
I'd like if every person can comment with firsthand accounts of Eotechs failing, what the specific failure was, the model of the optic, conditions of use, type of batteries if possible, and most importantly DOCUMENTATION. Firsthand accounts from reputable people will be enough, but pictures and images will always be concrete.
I'm trying to sort the real incidents from the hearsay, and IMHO, this could be very beneficial is revealing just how reliable or unreliable Eotechs are. ONLY FIRSTHAND ACCOUNTS! There is too much hearsay on optics failures and it needs to be stopped. I hope that we can get to the bottom of these issues and improve the standard of quality for the shooting community as a whole.
I've owned a 511, 552, 512. I've measured my speed using the same carbine with a 552 and an Aimpoint 4MOA CompM2. The average difference in speed was 2 to 3 hundredths of second at 15yds, no truly real difference on 5 attempts at 25yds, actually on 2 of the 5 strings I was faster with the Aimpoint. At 5 attempts at 50yds I was faster with the Aimpoint on of the 4 strings.
My conclusion?
At very close distances (inside of 20yds) the EOTech is a little faster. I believe it's just because there's more to see (more red reticle). As the distance gets further that same reticle gets too busy and distracting until at some point it slows you down (to me that distance is 25-50yds).
The whole speed thing by EOTech is marketing plain and simple.
BMFB,
Working in a retail gunshop I see quite a bit.
We've returned EOTechs for service a few times since I've worked there (we do however sell about 10-12 Aimpoints to 1 EOTech), we haven't had to return an Aimpoint. Typically an EOTech is returned because of short battery life (mostly 511s/512s). By short I mean 100hrs or less of usable battery life. Very recently one customer of ours had one in storage for a month in the off position, it wouldn't power up and both batteries were dead and one was so far dead that it's polarity had reversed.....
One of our part timers has had problems with his 557 (we both looked at it), one of his batteries was leaking acid, he cleaned it all up and now it's working again.
I'm trying to sort the real incidents from the hearsay, and IMHO, this could be very beneficial is revealing just how reliable or unreliable Eotechs are. ONLY FIRSTHAND ACCOUNTS!
There is too much hearsay on optics failures and it needs to be stopped.
Good luck on getting all the facts, and not letting internet fluff get in the way of those facts. One of the problems I see with the post is that you are looking for documentation of failures without equal documentation of success. A poll, or thread getting a compilation of all first hand info would be a little more realistic for a level playing field. The way the thread is written now, its designed for 100% Eotech failure.
I've had a real world Eotech failure. I called Eotech, explained it was my duty optic, and I had another one the next day. This was several years ago, and its been good to go ever since.
I have no doubt that Eotech has had plenty of returned optics, that is what happens when you are popular. I've seen large cardboard boxes of dead Aimpoints in DRMO (or whatever its called this week), but it doesn't make me think any of my Aimpoints are going to break.
Good luck with the thread, count mine as 1 Eotech problem out of 4 no problem units (info based on actual ownership).
Aimpoint is not considered the Better Optic...
It's the optic with longer battery life.
The EOTech is optimal for entry and fast target accusition. I prefer the EOTech as I have never had a problem with mine. AA version ftw
This is what I'm trying to find out. For instance, someone sees your post and assumes Eotechs fail. They go on to post somewhere else that Eotechs are unreliable. Meanwhile, there is no first person documentation for this.
There is a good body of information, even first-person, that can be compiled from various class AARs posted here and elsewhere, as well as various troubleshooting posts. Add some requests for info/troubleshooting posts in various other venues where the user isn't seeking a brand war, but rather working a problem. Add now the feedback from user groups, sometimes available in public venues.
It would be handy to have some more info for some of them, but there are trends with some demonstrated consistency. Some issues can be mitigated at the user level to enhance serviceability. Some just leave the user with "huh?"
I've seen, first-hand, a number of Eotech issues. They are consistent with trend. Battery box. Circuitry. Unknown gremlin. Fail to maintain zero. Mount.
Eotechs can and do fail. What I'm trying to do is compile a list so that the causes and frequency can be readily examined.
That's a pretty monumental task, that will require some substantial effort in survey design and data collection.
W&R data from Eotech would be most useful, but they're unlikely to release it.
I wish you well in your undertaking and hope you get the data you seek, but I suspect there will be no surprises.
everything can and will fail. EOTechs are no exception. Aimpoints fail too
BMFB,
Some of this was posted here before and can be read in the other EOTech thread.
I have approx. 317 units here in country. Of those at least 70 were down due to various issues. The first and foremost issue is the battery contacts inside the battery housing units loosening and falling out when guys changed batteries. This is a fact and not heresay. The other issue is with the contacts on the unit itself behind the rubber membrane. There are instances of these sticking behind the membrane which is caused either by the recoil when shooting or the pressure exerted on them when the unit is closed. When I contacted customer service the first time (around February 2008) they blew me off and outright said they couldn't help me. It was only after I learned that SOCOM had documented problems with their issued Mod. 553's that I was able to get any resolution.
I contacted the XX for XXXX program in XXXX and he confirmed for that they did indeed issue a recall of the sights and why it was done. He then gave me the contact info for someone much higher up in the food chain at EOTech. I contacted that person who assured me that the situation would be resolved and he apologized for the problems. It is now 15 AUG 08 and I am still waiting for the stuff that was promised to us to fix the sights.
More recently our PSD guys were conducting range training with an M240 that had an EOTech Mod. 552 mounted on it. While they were shooting the reflective prism (I assume is what it is called) popped loose inside the unit and it is now tits up. According to EOTech it can only be fixed by sending it back to them. As to why it happened, no one knows. The issues with the adhesives being used in the battery packs and for the rubber membrane are supposedly well-known and yet it seems as if they continue.
I also get numerous reports from the guys about battery usage and units that have cut out while shooting. I have seen enough issues here that I recently put mine up on eBay and sold it. It will really take a miracle for me to buy one again, especially after how we were treated.
1222
Here is a link to the statement that L-3 made concerning the recall of the Mod. 553. They are saying limited number and while I won't call bullshit right away, I know for a fact that SOCOM was concerned and they weren't the only ones. The Honolulu PD SWAT team had problems as well and had to get the upgrade/ repair kits to fix theirs.
This is a post that was made by a member of the Hono SWAT team about their Mod. 553's.
552's and 553's have issues with the spring connections. From repetitive firing of the weapon the recoil causes the batteries to slam fore and aft which can cause bad connections and the optic to shut down when it loses connection after being fired. Generally Eotech has not been real helpful with smaller groups or individuals. If Eotech is going to send an upgrade kit, they usually want the individual serial # of each unit and as mentioned it does not seem that they are real enthusiastic about sending out the upgrade kits which are not much too them.
Our unit ordered 75, 553's and Eotech actually didn't give us any crap and sent us upgrade replacement kits. I have started on doing the fix and it is very easy. The toughest part is getting the glue scraped off and the mounting area cleaned for the new pad.I am pretty sure that they were all built using the same orignal springs and parts. Eotech claims that it takes thousands of rounds to make the situation happen, but I will say that with the .223 / 5.56 we have seen the issue manifest itself in as little as a few hundred rounds. My issued Eotech probably started having this problem after around 3K rounds.
I would guess that if the .308 Eotech's have this problem that it would show itself sooner due to the increased amount of recoil over the .223 / 5.56.
Having said that, the fix is quite simple to do on your own and I can't really think of a reason not to do it, especially if they are gonna send it out for nothing.
http://www.eotech-inc.com/553modification.php
Well I guess this was a timely thread. This is an email that I just received from someone I know that works for one of my former employers. He is located here in country on a contract as the Site Manager.
Will,
Hey Brother. I just took over this site and all the headaches that go along with it. I won’t kill you with the details but I’ve got half a dozen or better Eotechs that just don’t work at all. All of them, including the ones I can get to work, have those little pesky rubber deals that have come loose.
Did EOTech respond to you when you had the same troubles?
Did they fix them for free, replace the battery compartments, or what?
Thanks brother. I’m dependant on these sights and I’m hoping that L3 has a rep in country that can fix them.
BushmasterFanBoy
08-15-08, 12:41
Well I guess this was a timely thread. This is an email that I just received from someone I know that works for one of my former employers. He is located here in country on a contract as the Site Manager.
Will,
Hey Brother. I just took over this site and all the headaches that go along with it. I won’t kill you with the details but I’ve got half a dozen or better Eotechs that just don’t work at all. All of them, including the ones I can get to work, have those little pesky rubber deals that have come loose.
Did EOTech respond to you when you had the same troubles?
Did they fix them for free, replace the battery compartments, or what?
Thanks brother. I’m dependant on these sights and I’m hoping that L3 has a rep in country that can fix them.
Thank you, this has been a huge help. It's nice to see some firsthand info. If I may ask, how long were these Eotechs (the ones you used) used on average before going TU?
Are the adhesive failures possibly due to heat? :confused:
I'm honestly surprised L3 just brushed you off like that. That's unforgivable.
ETA: I've added a poll. Please vote honestly and truthfully, however, I'd appreciate if anyone could post their firsthand stories.
BMFB,
These units arrived in country in 2005. Most of them have not really seen "hard use" at all.
The heat is probably a factor and considering how hot it is through out most of the year if that is the cause it is unacceptable.
Some of the problems were "operator headspace" as they left the batteries in for long periods of time and did not check them. End result was the heat caused the batteries to leak acid and that ate up the rubber and contacts.
I was surprised as well, and when I experience customer service like that I am jaded forever. Especially after I tried to contact this person several times to get a resolution.
BushmasterFanBoy
08-15-08, 13:06
BMFB,
These units arrived in country in 2005. Most of them have not really seen "hard use" at all.
The heat is probably a factor and considering how hot it is through out most of the year if that is the cause it is unacceptable.
Some of the problems were "operator headspace" as they left the batteries in for long periods of time and did not check them. End result was the heat caused the batteries to leak acid and that ate up the rubber and contacts.
I was surprised as well, and when I experience customer service like that I am jaded forever. Especially after I tried to contact this person several times to get a resolution.
Thanks for the details, its really been a huge help. I'd not put up with customer service like that. I can't blame you at all for scraping Eotechs as your primary optic (s).
I know you're not as interested in battery life issues, but one thing I've observed with both a 511 (N-type) and 512 (AA) is that the battery drains even when the sight is not in use. On several occasions I've found myself replacing batteries on EOTechs that were dormant for a few months.
I've never engaged EOTech customer service, but my experience with Aimpoint was first class.
I have used one of the early Bushnell holosight for a long while. This model lacks the big 65 MOA circle.
It has been mounted on a .50 Beowulf, AR-15, Target pistols, etc. Sure, the battery goes "down" on them, but as with anything battery powered you should accept that. This one has never had any type of problem other than batteries running dry.
Ordered a 516 for my new build and I'll try to give some input in the next few months on how it works out.
davestarbuck
08-15-08, 22:47
I've seen 2 crap out in classes, and mine cuts out on me often.. It says in the spares box now...
-dave
I started out having a 552 Rev D issued for my MP5. Adhesive for one of the doughnuts in the battery box loosened up and when I changed batteries I needed to make sure I didn't lose the spring. I forgot all about that glitch until someone else mentioned the adhesive giving away.
Most of my problems were battery life and wandering zeros. Battery life to me was an issue, because admin began stalling when I asked for new batteries more than they though they were needed. When we did callouts someone had to go to the gas station and get fresh batteries for all the EoTechs.
I couldn't tell the wandering zero with the MP5, but when I put it on the M4 it went all over the place. I chased groups all over the place. Groups would hit Point of Aim with the M68 or Irons, so I eliminated me as the problem and settled it on the EoTech. All the Eo's went to L3 for an electronics upgrade to the Rev F package. Batteries lasted a little longer, but I found I still had the wandering zero. I left that agency before I could resolve it.
I purchased a 552 for my personal duty rifle at the next agency. I really do like the 65 MOA ring around the reticle. I can't get the dot to be perfectly round like the Aimpoint, and my belief is that it was affecting my accuracy on some of my groups. Since I was supplying my own batteries, the 60 hours I got with this RevF model really pissed me off. Batteries add up in cost when they come out of my own pocket for duty use. 60 hours wasn't even a full pay period.
Strike 2 was when I was verifying my zero after carrying it. Gun and sight weren't knocked around, and it was a routine thing I thought. I had a face target set up at 50 yards and aimed between the eyes. Simple shot. My cold bore struck upper left forehead, almost missing the head. Unacceptable. Sight came off the gun right there, I didn't give it a strike 3. Sold it and bought an Aimpoint with a LaRue mount for just a hair more than a 552 costs new.
Now my accounts are just a little bit of the sample and don't consitute more than anecdotes. I saw 2 Eo's go tits up at a EAG class. 1 sheared the mounting screw, and the other used N batteries that went dead after a week of installment.
BushmasterFanBoy
08-16-08, 00:42
Since this thread has gotten far enough along, let me post my experience with Eotech. I use a 512 model on my other AR, and it serves me pretty well, I had it mounted on my LaRue rail for the last 2 1/2 years and it underwent some extremely hairy strings of fire. 240 rounds at a time, mounted next to the LaRue "heatsink" barrel nut during 100* heat on the range. Not the most intense use schedule, but enough to make me a firm defender of this optic.
It was manufactured Dec. 2005, less than a few days before I bought it, and it seems to be some of the last "Eotech" Eotechs before they were manufactured under the L3 label (Or at least with such a label printed on the batt. compartment). It's a revision F, which means it is pretty much GTG, as Eotechs go. It's had its batteries swapped 3-6 times since I bought it, for an avg. of one swap every 6 months or so, this is with regular AA batts, since I've not run it on lithiums. I don't leave it on, but neither do I run my Aimpoint on.
Given my experience, I'm inclined to treat it as a rugged reliable optic that has been pretty well used but never missed a beat.
That's my experience, and more than likely Eotechs across the board show a trend of some very big problems, but my personal use of it has been nothing short of fantastic.
Lets keep this thread going to find out some more info, from all kinds of users.
I have read the posts about aimpoints and eotechs walking or going out of zero. Just makes me wonder if it is a mounting issue. Possibly not tight enough or needs to be loctited.
L3 said that it was something in the electronics itself when I sent my Dept's in for upgrading. The wandering I experienced was nothing in the mounting, as everything was secure and nothing was loose. I'm not familiar with any wandering zero stories on Aimpoints Solid, can you post where you heard that from? I'd like to see what's being noted.
L3 said that it was something in the electronics itself when I sent my Dept's in for upgrading. The wandering I experienced was nothing in the mounting, as everything was secure and nothing was loose. I'm not familiar with any wandering zero stories on Aimpoints Solid, can you post where you heard that from? I'd like to see what's being noted.
Just search on "getoffthex.com" or "ar15.com". Most people figured out they were not mounted well and where moving from vibration and usage.
None of the Aimpoint stories were found to be from electronics. I do however see aimpoints on ebay sometimes that are sold "as is" and will not maintain power. Guessing from loose battery connections.
If it's not mounted right then that is "operator headspace' and not the fault of the unit. Did the units on ebay specifically state there was an "electronics" issue? How would they know if it wasn't sent back for repair? I don't own an Aimpoin (yet) but I have heard very few if any complaints about them. If for some reason the Aimpoint did go down I would first try and get it resolved first before just selling it "as is".
Just search on "getoffthex.com" or "ar15.com". Most people figured out they were not mounted well and where moving from vibration and usage.
None of the Aimpoint stories were found to be from electronics. I do however see aimpoints on ebay sometimes that are sold "as is" and will not maintain power. Guessing from loose battery connections.
ffhounddog
08-17-08, 07:14
I have a 554 that got the shit knock out of it on convoy missions ans would not keep battery life. Also not switch on at times. I guess being close to IED with near misses and shit made it go bad.
I sent it in and it was fixed. Same sight and I am glad its the same one. I have been thought some shit with it so I can depend on it. Glad I had the flip up Buis on it when it messed up.
I might post some pics of it just so you can see it. They replaced the covor and told me Lithium batteriers will keep from the batteries being drained in the off mode.
I still have a CAR-15 for the house gun because well it is hard to keep a sight powered on all the time.
I replace my batteries every 6 months and use the rest of the battery power in my MP3 player. Lasts a long time that I have a set waiting to be used since I last replaced it. Maybe I might put in in the TV remote ;)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.