Muzzle device decision

[labeef]

Jp comp or griffin m4sd brake? Will be using on a 20" precision build. Curious if anyone has any first hand knowledge of either or a recommendation. Thanks

[SomeOtherGuy]

Both are fine if you want a brake. Do you need a brake? I briefly had a brake - one less aggressive, less loud than those - on my 18" precision upper and removed it after one range session because it was too unpleasant for the small benefit. I always wear earpro, but had to double up (plugs + muffs) to shoot a series under the range's awning while the brake was on. I switched to a flash hider / comp style device (Colt CSR, but functionally it's not much different than an A2) and shooting was much more pleasant. Felt recoil is a non issue for .223, and while it's nice to watch the hits through your scope, with practice and good shooting form you can do that without any brake when firing slow single shots.

If you go with a brake anyway, get a pure conventional brake, not a cage style device (e.g. Battlecomp or Griffin M4SD compensator) as the latter may affect accuracy due to gases inside the device getting ahead of the bullet. Conventional ported brakes mostly divert gases away from the bullet path and should be neutral for accuracy compared to a bare muzzle or symmetrical flash hider. The two you asked about would be fine in this regard.

[greg500sw]

The JP comp is great, but I have found the Seekins Precision break to be A tad effective, but very loud.

With my pretty light weight 16 inch rifle I can watch my own vapor trail and impacts when shooting long range.

Really it's hard to go wrong with either brake.


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[gesundheit]

If you go with a brake anyway, get a pure conventional brake, not a cage style device (e.g. Battlecomp or Griffin M4SD compensator) as the latter may affect accuracy due to gases inside the device getting ahead of the bullet.

Very interesting. I didn't know that. Can you point me to more information on these cage style brakes' gas dynamics?

[labeef]

Someotherguy, that's a lot of great info that I really hadn't considered pertaining to cage type comps. I was thinking the griffin brake because I can attach a blast shield when I'm at the range and take it off when I'm just shooting prairie dogs

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[Rayrevolver]

Another option: VG6 Gamma or Epsilon. And you can attach their "Cage" device to reduce the blast.

[labeef]

So it seems like if I'm gonna get one for putting a cage over, ferfrans is the best deal?

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[SomeOtherGuy]

Someotherguy, that's a lot of great info that I really hadn't considered pertaining to cage type comps. I was thinking the griffin brake because I can attach a blast shield when I'm at the range and take it off when I'm just shooting prairie dogs


Another option: VG6 Gamma or Epsilon. And you can attach their "Cage" device to reduce the blast.

The cage device that many companies make now is more weight and more money, and will probably change your POI when it's attached vs. not attached, since it's more weight on the barrel, both pulling it downward (gravity) and changing the harmonics.

I'm somewhat ashamed to say I've spent probably over $1000 on muzzle devices in the last 7 or so years, chasing the latest new awesome thing and trying for any benefit. I've shot various types of devices, on various uppers (but mostly 16" midlength 5.56), in various settings including 2-gun competitions, competition under and around various types of cover, square range with awning, square range without awning, and my rural backyard. I've compared times and accuracy, I've run the same competition stage with different uppers and devices inside of 10 minutes, I've had myself videotaped to see what's really happening. I've concluded that most fancy muzzle devices are money wasted. Here's my 2 cents:

1) Most people are served well by the A2 that comes on nearly all uppers.

1.5) The A2 provides a surprising amount of muzzle compensation. If you don't believe me, loosen it, shoot 5 rds with it in the intended orientation, then shoot 5 rds with it upside down. You'll find the muzzle rise amazing when it's upside down.

2) If you are going to use a sound suppressor then you need its mount, and in many cases that's a proprietary mount and you just need to get one.

3) If your upper is for 3-gun and nothing else, an effective brake might help you a bit, and probably won't be too big a drawback in typical 3-gun shooting conditions. (But it will be in all other conditions.)

4) If your rifle is used for hunting, or target shooting under the awning that most ranges have, a brake makes shooting very unpleasant and will damage your hearing unless you always have perfectly fitting ear protection on.

5) With smaller calibers, most "perceived recoil" is in fact a response to noise and blast, not actual recoil, and the brake that reduces actual recoil (as measured by instruments) may be counterproductive from the shooter's perspective. The most pleasant device I've used on a 5.56 AR15 is the AAC Blackout pure flash hider (not brake or Brakeout), which has minimal noise and blast and gives the feeling of little recoil, even though instrumented testing shows it has no significant effect on recoil.

6) Brakes make good sense when shooting a rifle that so much actual recoil that you will otherwise develop a flinch. This is somewhere in the ballpark of 300 Win Mag for most adult males. I would absolutely use a brake for shooting 338 Lapua or 50 BMG, etc.

7) The best newer hybrid devices like the Griffin flash-comp do actually work well at several different things, but between their price, length, and weight, you generally would have been better off just going with a 2" longer barrel and a minimal device like an A2/A1 flash hider. (This doesn't apply if you need a proprietary sound suppressor mount.)

8) Going from a carbine recoil system to an VLTOR A5 recoil system will provide about as much benefit on muzzle rise and perceived recoil as most comps and brakes, based on video I've taken, for the same or less cost, less weight and balance penalty, and no penalty in terms of noise or blast. It will also generally increase reliability.



Very interesting. I didn't know that. Can you point me to more information on these cage style brakes' gas dynamics?

Something I've read several places but I don't know of a scientific test. It would be a good exercise for Molon or someone else who does rigorous testing of such things.

[Rayrevolver]

Good points SOG.

I think my downfall was shooting someones SBR with a brake one day. To that point I had only shot and owned A2s. Well, his SBR with a brake absolutely did not move when I shot it. That day my 14.5 Mid LW with a BCM Comp seemed to jump about 4" off target and I was convinced I could do better.

I understand you higher round count guys can learn to control an AR with an A2 but I guess I am looking for a hardware solution to a software problem!

So now I have been chasing a device that I can keep the red dot on target at 15 yards. A BCM 16 ELW KMR (and Vltor A5) with the VG6 Epsilon was pretty damn good at just moving back a little, and that was a very light upper to boot.

The Ferfrans is 11 oz. You might as well buy a suppressor (and the associated mount and blast shield/warden).

[GH41]

The cage device that many companies make now is more weight and more money, and will probably change your POI when it's attached vs. not attached, since it's more weight on the barrel, both pulling it downward (gravity) and changing the harmonics.

I'm somewhat ashamed to say I've spent probably over $1000 on muzzle devices in the last 7 or so years, chasing the latest new awesome thing and trying for any benefit. I've shot various types of devices, on various uppers (but mostly 16" midlength 5.56), in various settings including 2-gun competitions, competition under and around various types of cover, square range with awning, square range without awning, and my rural backyard. I've compared times and accuracy, I've run the same competition stage with different uppers and devices inside of 10 minutes, I've had myself videotaped to see what's really happening. I've concluded that most fancy muzzle devices are money wasted. Here's my 2 cents:

1) Most people are served well by the A2 that comes on nearly all uppers.

1.5) The A2 provides a surprising amount of muzzle compensation. If you don't believe me, loosen it, shoot 5 rds with it in the intended orientation, then shoot 5 rds with it upside down. You'll find the muzzle rise amazing when it's upside down.

2) If you are going to use a sound suppressor then you need its mount, and in many cases that's a proprietary mount and you just need to get one.

3) If your upper is for 3-gun and nothing else, an effective brake might help you a bit, and probably won't be too big a drawback in typical 3-gun shooting conditions. (But it will be in all other conditions.)

4) If your rifle is used for hunting, or target shooting under the awning that most ranges have, a brake makes shooting very unpleasant and will damage your hearing unless you always have perfectly fitting ear protection on.

5) With smaller calibers, most "perceived recoil" is in fact a response to noise and blast, not actual recoil, and the brake that reduces actual recoil (as measured by instruments) may be counterproductive from the shooter's perspective. The most pleasant device I've used on a 5.56 AR15 is the AAC Blackout pure flash hider (not brake or Brakeout), which has minimal noise and blast and gives the feeling of little recoil, even though instrumented testing shows it has no significant effect on recoil.

6) Brakes make good sense when shooting a rifle that so much actual recoil that you will otherwise develop a flinch. This is somewhere in the ballpark of 300 Win Mag for most adult males. I would absolutely use a brake for shooting 338 Lapua or 50 BMG, etc.

7) The best newer hybrid devices like the Griffin flash-comp do actually work well at several different things, but between their price, length, and weight, you generally would have been better off just going with a 2" longer barrel and a minimal device like an A2/A1 flash hider. (This doesn't apply if you need a proprietary sound suppressor mount.)

8) Going from a carbine recoil system to an VLTOR A5 recoil system will provide about as much benefit on muzzle rise and perceived recoil as most comps and brakes, based on video I've taken, for the same or less cost, less weight and balance penalty, and no penalty in terms of noise or blast. It will also generally increase reliability.




Something I've read several places but I don't know of a scientific test. It would be a good exercise for Molon or someone else who does rigorous testing of such things.

What he ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ said. Especially on a 20 for hunting or range use. I wouldn't even buy a threaded 20" barrel. If it's threaded just screw an A2 on it only because it's cheaper than a thread protector.

[gesundheit]

Thanks for the detailed reply, SOG.