extreme cold weather performance?

[Warrior]

Has anyone ever operated, trained, competed or in anyway run there weapons and gear hard in freezing and sub zero temps? how do temps that extreme affect gear?

[Failure2Stop]

POI in rifles drops considerably if you are zeroed for warm weather.- Recommend rezeroing if the average temp rises/drops more than about 20 degrees or change of elevation of 2,000 feet or more. These numbers are from memory, specifics will change depending on accuracy/range needs and operational changes that may preclude rezeroing in the estimated ranges. Sub-300 meter engagement will be largetly unaffected unless there is drastic temp/elevation change.

Condensation on all weapons can render them inoperable. Do not introduce them to warm/humid conditions when cold- preferably just leave them covered outdoors. Otherwise water will condense on the metal and settle into the gun, freezing when you take it back outside. If you have to bring it inside, ensure that it is completely dry before taking it back outside. Use lubricant rated to low temps such as LAW (Lubricant, Arctic Weather).

Plastics do not like the cold, and especially not the super-cold. There have been some reports of non-metal magazines breaking in sub (-)40 F. Cannot personally confirm, would recommend aluminum or steel magazines for that application. Be careful with plastic bits attached to the weapon- such as rail covers and lens-caps. For some reason I have seen more ejection port cover springs break in the cold than elsewhere, may not really be a concern depending on your application, but snow/ice in the ejection port is a bad thing universally.

Be careful with magazines- they tend to attract snow and ice. Check on them frequently, including spring function. Leave them outside with the weapon, as they will also attract condensation and re-freeze if not completely dry.

Batteries drain scary fast- carry lots of spare light and optic batteries.

Be careful with your breath- nothing sucks like exhaling right onto your occular lense which immediately fogs and freezes over. If you are using irons, make sure no ice formed in the aperture.

If you are camouflaging your gun make sure to leave some ventilation to the barrel, otherwise you could possibly overheat the barrel- this only really applies if you are shooting a whole lot. As in a ridiculous amount.

Snow and ice will find their way into snaps and velcro. Recommend alternative methods of securing pouches or clean the velcro religiously.

Wear wool socks with a liner. Change them frequently.

Wear gloves if touching any metal object. Don't lick lamp-posts.

This is just my experience in my application, YMMV.

[Jay Cunningham]

POI in rifles drops considerably if you are zeroed for warm weather.- Recommend rezeroing if the average temp rises/drops more than about 20 degrees or change of elevation of 2,000 feet or more. These numbers are from memory, specifics will change depending on accuracy/range needs and operational changes that may preclude rezeroing in the estimated ranges. Sub-300 meter engagement will be largetly unaffected unless there is drastic temp/elevation change.

Condensation on all weapons can render them inoperable. Do not introduce them to warm/humid conditions when cold- preferably just leave them covered outdoors. Otherwise water will condense on the metal and settle into the gun, freezing when you take it back outside. If you have to bring it inside, ensure that it is completely dry before taking it back outside. Use lubricant rated to low temps such as LAW (Lubricant, Arctic Weather).

Plastics do not like the cold, and especially not the super-cold. There have been some reports of non-metal magazines breaking in sub (-)40 F. Cannot personally confirm, would recommend aluminum or steel magazines for that application. Be careful with plastic bits attached to the weapon- such as rail covers and lens-caps. For some reason I have seen more ejection port cover springs break in the cold than elsewhere, may not really be a concern depending on your application, but snow/ice in the ejection port is a bad thing universally.

Be careful with magazines- they tend to attract snow and ice. Check on them frequently, including spring function. Leave them outside with the weapon, as they will also attract condensation and re-freeze if not completely dry.

Batteries drain scary fast- carry lots of spare light and optic batteries.

Be careful with your breath- nothing sucks like exhaling right onto your occular lense which immediately fogs and freezes over. If you are using irons, make sure no ice formed in the aperture.

If you are camouflaging your gun make sure to leave some ventilation to the barrel, otherwise you could possibly overheat the barrel- this only really applies if you are shooting a whole lot. As in a ridiculous amount.

This is just my experience in my application, YMMV.

This is absolutely outstanding info - thank you F2S!

[ToddG]

Great info F2S! Thanks!

[Jay Cunningham]

I just got back from some time at MWTC even though it was more geared toward summer mountain operations the guys there let us in on some cold weather stuff.

-Weapon freezing- its cold, you make a little fire warm yourself up with your weapon next to you then you head out on a patrol. The fire can warm up your weapon causing condensation which will then freeze. One of the instructors shared a personal story of a time he had this happen in Afghanistan. Not a good thing to have happen.
-Snow-You are shooting and your barrel gets warm, you might take a core sample and get some snow which melts to water in your barrel/ flash hider then it will refreeze which can cause a big problem.

General cold weather fighting info
-Not very weapon related but the temp drops 3 degrees fro every 1000 feet of elevation.
-Never sweat- its better to stay comfortabley cool then to get yourstuff wet.
-Remember to layer properly
-Pack light, freeze at night
-Pack light, First to the fight
-Clean clothes workbetter than dirty stuff
-Alot of body heat escapes through the head (30% i think but double check me)
- Never blow air on your bare hands. Your breath has condensation which can be bad.
-Warm up your arms by swinging them in big circles
-Avoid frost bite on your face by making facial expression which move the skin causing more blood flow
-Keep batteries in your pits or crotch
-Throw a canteen in your sleeping bag so in the morning you have warm or at least non frozen water

Stuff I have learned from living in Maine as a kid
-When you get to a certian point cold just feels cold, the difference is how fast it gets to you
-Think warm thoughts- really mindset helps
-Give your self alot of time for traveling deep snow
-Pmags have worked fine for me in temps down to temps of 5degrees

More great info - thanks!

[Warrior]

Yea really great info guys!! I have an opportunity to train with some old friends up north, FAR up north this winter. While I have spent alot of time in very cold weather (as cold as -50F) I've never trained or operated in those conditions. I'm taking my AK as my primary as I decided earlier this year that I would focus on that system for a full year. I"m taking alot of clothes so I can change things around once there as I've never been this active in these temps I'm not totally sure what amount of layering will be comfortable and effective, also i'll be taking some stuff just to test in those conditions.

[Spooky130]

I've never shot competitively in the cold but hunted in Alaska in the winter. I know 870s freeze up pretty good just riding around in a vehicle - same condensation issue that others have spoke to.

When it gets cold plastic stuff breaks. I played hockey down to about -35F. At that temp the hockey pucks can break in half and the towers that connect the skate blades to the boot of the skates can shatter like glass. I think the advice about aluminum/steel mags is spot on.

Frostbite sucks and a lot of it has to do with getting sweaty then cold. Hypothermia is also a bear and makes people do weird things - many people are found frozen solid and completely naked.

I never managed to destroy my Glock in 10mm all the way down to -40F - after that I wasn't interested in shooting anymore...

Spooky

[theJanitor]

being in Hawaii, this doesn't really apply to me. but the suggestion of metal mags brings up another question, "what about the plastic followers in the mags?"

[K.L. Davis]

This is the one time that I really needed the forward assist on an M16... coming out of water, breaking breach and chamber check... bolt froze stuck about a half inch out of battery :(

[Barbara]

In Michigan, if you want to shoot in the winter, you shoot in sub zero weather eventually. It's like shooting in summer, but with thicker socks.

Layer. Wear gloves. Wear a Carhartt hat.

[Gutshot John]

From a medical perspective...

Cotton=Death. Wear wool, even when wet it will keep you warm. Silk longjohns are the cat's ass. Layer your socks, wear hat/scarf. Goose down is a great, lightweight insulator, until it gets wet. Cotton has no place in your gear.

Counter-intuitively, the biggest danger in extreme cold is overheating. You want to be cold when you start off the day, you will heat up with exertion. A wicking layer (silk) will pull moisture from your skin and help keep you warmer.

Bare skin on skin is the fastest way to reverse hypothermia. NEVER sleep on cold ground/metal/stone. You need a sleeping bag, pine boughs or dried leaves to prevent losing heat to the cold ground.

Lesson learned the hard way:

Don't build a fire under a snow covered tree.

[Are-Jay]

I took a class a couple years ago with the temperature in the low teens not including the 10-20 mph wind all day. I discovered that the lubricant I was using for my AR-15 turns into ad adhesive at that temperature. I had previously been very happy with the performance of the grease but quickly realized it was the reason my bolt would not go into battery after every shot when I hosed the rifle with CLP so I could continue with training. At lunch I cleaned and re-lubed with CLP and continued with no other problems. Conveniently I also learned to blow my breath out the side of my mouth as not to fog my optics. OK, I know someone will ask the grease was Ultima-Lube Grease from Wilson.

[JPolito830]

I live in Virginia, and the temps dont usually get below 30 in the winter. Thanks for all of the information in this thread though, I was looking into taking a trip to Alaska and was curious about temperature affects on weapons.

[akviper]

A few more things to think about from someone in the 49th state. I carry a pack of gun rubbers for the muzzle. You can shoot through them and they do a great job of keeping snow and other bad things out of the barrel. Don't use them if you take the gun swimming until after you get out of the water and clear your barrel. If you get the barrel hot, let it cool a bit before putting the rubber on.

We carried a short closed cell pad in case we needed to prone out for a time. It doesn't take long to get dangerously cold when laying in the snow. You compress your insulating layers so the cold goes right through. Nomex or other light form fitting gloves under heavy gauntlet style mittens work great in the bitter cold. Use an idiot cord to secure the mitten if you have to quickly pull it off to shoot. The nomex gloves will protect your hands from sticking to super cold metal and still allow trigger manipulation. The thin glove will not keep you warm long. Heavy mittens will always be warmer than any glove in bitter cold. You can loose the ability to use zippers and other vital things in just a few minutes if your hands are not well insulated.

Keep in mind there are basically two different kits. Dry cold is very different from "wet cold". My immediate area is wet cold ie., 20 to 30 F and lots of rain or wet snow. A few miles away it can be 50 F below. The wet cold obviously needs a water barrier. A water barrier in the dry cold is a bad idea. Condensation will build up quickly in dry cold if you use water barriers such as Goretex and the like. Overdressing is a major problem. If you are going to move, hike, ski, or snowshoe, strip down and put your heavier insulating layers in your pack. As mentioned above you do not want to soak your insulating layers with sweat. Moving in the cold may only require your base underwear layer and a wind garment. If you are carrying a lot of gear and a pack it doesn't take long to warm up and start sweating. Another basic fact is there are no wonder insulations. Thickness is warmth. You may not look cool in a down or Wiggy's outfit but you will stay warm even in the coldest weather. Down is the best for dry cold and Wiggy's gear is the best for wet cold. Wind is your worst enemy. A few years ago I was unloading a vehicle at -10F with a 50 mph wind. I didn't cover my face and in the ten or so minutes I was exposed I had a pretty good case of frost bite on both cheeks.

VMI-Mo and Gutshot John have it nailed otherwise.

[Lagadelphia]

Can't say enough about growing out your facial hair as well for cold weather. It really helps keep your face warm.

[akviper]

I forgot to mention fiberglass tent poles. They break like potato chips when the temperature drops. Stick with aluminum. Sunscreen and lip balm are essential. Even at sub zero temps you will get a crispy burn on any exposed skin as the snow reflects the rays.

[akviper]

My apologies for a double post and not being smart enough to delete it.