View Full Version : I am taking the 5.45x39mm plunge! updated 09-23-09
Rinse it with water, hot or cold.
So i really have to find water..Thanks LL
So i really have to find water..Thanks LL
That is probably best.
However, if you want to keep something in your BOB, Hoppes has a version of their Hoppes Elite (basically M-Pro 7 gun cleaner made for Hoppes by the same folks who make M-Pro 7 -- needs to say "Elite") made for Black Powder users. This would probably be very good for corrosive ammo as well. Just a guess. But any form of M-Pro 7 or Hoppes Elite gun cleaner works very well with corrosive ammo (and M-Pro 7 and HE are non toxic and have no real smell). A bottle of that and a boresnake in your BOB for emergency use is probably a good idea (and not just for corrosive users)
But plain old water should be your first shot if available for that I think.
Chad
Jay Cunningham
01-11-09, 16:42
The corrosive ammo thing is starting to get silly...
You just need to get the corrosive salts off. Dissolving them with water is one way to remove salts. Mechanically scrubbing them off is another way. Spraying lube or brake cleaner or WD40 over top of the salts will cause them to begin to corrode underneath whatever you sprayed on top of them. This is all dependent upon humidity.
It's not magic.
That is probably best.
However, if you want to keep something in your BOB, Hoppes has a version of their Hoppes Elite (basically M-Pro 7 gun cleaner made for Hoppes by the same folks who make M-Pro 7 -- needs to say "Elite") made for Black Powder users. This would probably be very good for corrosive ammo as well. Just a guess. But any form of M-Pro 7 or Hoppes Elite gun cleaner works very well with corrosive ammo (and M-Pro 7 and HE are non toxic and have no real smell). A bottle of that and a boresnake in your BOB for emergency use is probably a good idea (and not just for corrosive users)
But plain old water should be your first shot if available for that I think.
Chad
Thanks for the info Chad, really appreciate it. The only thing that worries me is what are my options just in case no water is available.
The corrosive ammo thing is starting to get silly...
You just need to get the corrosive salts off. Dissolving them with water is one way to remove salts. Mechanically scrubbing them off is another way. Spraying lube or brake cleaner or WD40 over top of the salts will cause them to begin to corrode underneath whatever you sprayed on top of them. This is all dependent upon humidity.
It's not magic.
Thanks Katar, Sorry im just a newbie. Now everything is clear and well understood. Thank you for the info.
Well, I took the plunge myself and bought a S&W 5.45 upper today. Anybody know a place that sells the C Products mags and Lancers?
If this thing works out, I'll shoot my 5.45 supply up instead of touching the 5.56. I figure I've got enough 5.45 for 2 or 3 years worth of classes and range time.
Littlelebowski
02-07-09, 17:56
Thanks for the info Chad, really appreciate it. The only thing that worries me is what are my options just in case no water is available.
Piss on it.
Well, I took the plunge myself and bought a S&W 5.45 upper today. Anybody know a place that sells the C Products mags and Lancers?
.
Palmetto State Armory has the 5.45 mags for $16.99ea
Littlelebowski
02-15-09, 20:03
In case anyone is wondering, a Surefire muzzle brake on a 5.45 makes for no muzzle lift. Addictive and fun :D
Well, shot my first rounds through my 5.45 upper this weekend. Only 3 magazines total, but I learned some important things.
1. Lancers aren't the 100% 5.45 magazine solution I was hoping for. I had 3 mags out there to test and I called two of them unsat. They show bulging when loaded (not when loaded with 5.56 though). Two failed to lock the bolt back on an empty mag. One had a follower stick, causing rounds to pour out of the gun when I did a Rip Drill after two tap-racks. I remain convinced that 5.45 requires it's own follower. I may cut up a Bulgarian mag to see if I can rig up a new follower for the Lancers.
2. Felt recoil seemed right in line with 5.56.
3. That red hammer spring is a bitch. I feel like a little wussy girl trying to rack the bolt.
4. 5.56 LULAs don't play well with 5.45. I was able to load ~10 rds or so, but not a full magazine. Perhaps a 5.45 lever and 5.56 mag adapter would work well together.
Haven't cleaned it yet. I'm sure I'm going to hell.
Could we maybe move this thread to the Beyond 5.56 folder? I always look for it there.
NCPatrolAR
02-23-09, 14:13
In case anyone is wondering, a Surefire muzzle brake on a 5.45 makes for no muzzle lift. Addictive and fun :D
Which model?
Put a few more rounds through my 5.45 upper today. Discovered something very interesting. No problems with (C Products) mags or surplus 53 gr. ammo.
However, with Wolf 70 gr. I was having problems. First shot with the stuff the gun short cycled. It never locked back on an empty mag. 4 times out of 6, it had a failure to feed on the last round in the mag, where the round looked to be hung up on the feed ramp. I tried an H buffer and a regular buffer and the problems were the same for each. Magazines don't seem to be the problem, as each mag would hold the bolt open on the last round when shooting surplus.
Any ideas?
That hammer spring is still a bitch. I'm getting very tempted to put the original back in. Jay, you ran yours with the original hammer spring for a while, right? What kind of performance did you get with that?
Put a few more rounds through my 5.45 upper today. Discovered something very interesting. No problems with (C Products) mags or surplus 53 gr. ammo.
However, with Wolf 70 gr. I was having problems. First shot with the stuff the gun short cycled. It never locked back on an empty mag. 4 times out of 6, it had a failure to feed on the last round in the mag, where the round looked to be hung up on the feed ramp. I tried an H buffer and a regular buffer and the problems were the same for each. Magazines don't seem to be the problem, as each mag would hold the bolt open on the last round when shooting surplus.
Any ideas?
That hammer spring is still a bitch. I'm getting very tempted to put the original back in. Jay, you ran yours with the original hammer spring for a while, right? What kind of performance did you get with that?
Interesting. How old is your upper?
Does it feel like it has more recoil when you shoot the 70gr ammo?
The feeding problem is most likely because of the feed ramps having a lip in them and the rounds cavitating in the mag and the longer bullet nose diving into the receiver, hitting the lip or edge of the feed ramp and being jammed straight up into barrel extension.
C4
Recoil feels about the same. Hard to judge between the two. It was cold out.
The upper is brand new. I just got it two weeks ago.
Is there any difference in OAL between a Wolf 70gr rd and a surplus 53gr rd? I don't have any Wolf here to check.
I'll pull it apart and look for anything on the ramps, but I didn't see anything the first time I looked upon receipt.
I'm worried that I might be a bit undergassed, which could lead to short stroking and potentially cause both problems. I'd hate to think it's two different things.
Recoil feels about the same. Hard to judge between the two. It was cold out.
The upper is brand new. I just got it two weeks ago.
Is there any difference in OAL between a Wolf 70gr rd and a surplus 53gr rd? I don't have any Wolf here to check.
I'll pull it apart and look for anything on the ramps, but I didn't see anything the first time I looked upon receipt.
I'm worried that I might be a bit undergassed, which could lead to short stroking and potentially cause both problems. I'd hate to think it's two different things.
Do you believe that the upper is new production?
I do not believe that it is undergassed. I think you have another issue and it will ONLY show itself with the heavier grain ammo.
C4
Jay Cunningham
02-28-09, 17:22
Put a few more rounds through my 5.45 upper today. Discovered something very interesting. No problems with (C Products) mags or surplus 53 gr. ammo.
However, with Wolf 70 gr. I was having problems. First shot with the stuff the gun short cycled. It never locked back on an empty mag. 4 times out of 6, it had a failure to feed on the last round in the mag, where the round looked to be hung up on the feed ramp. I tried an H buffer and a regular buffer and the problems were the same for each. Magazines don't seem to be the problem, as each mag would hold the bolt open on the last round when shooting surplus.
Any ideas?
That hammer spring is still a bitch. I'm getting very tempted to put the original back in. Jay, you ran yours with the original hammer spring for a while, right? What kind of performance did you get with that?
The original hammer spring is utterly unreliable - you must use the heavy spring for proper primer detonation.
Littlelebowski
02-28-09, 18:03
Don't understand what's so wrong with the heavy hammer spring.
Jay Cunningham
02-28-09, 20:18
Don't understand what's so wrong with the heavy hammer spring.
I am assuming that subzero doesn't like the heavier pull, but I'll let him speak to it.
Littlelebowski
02-28-09, 22:00
Mine's heavy but crisp on the complete M&P 15R. Doesn't bother me.
I don't mind a heavy trigger, but it's a little heavier than I'd prefer. What I really don't like is running the bolt with it in.
I think you have another issue and it will ONLY show itself with the heavier grain ammo.
I'm no gunsmith, just a guy who stayed at Fairfield Inn last week. I'd love to hear some ideas.
Jay Cunningham
03-01-09, 07:31
I bet if you stick with surplus 53 gr. ammo you won't have any issues besides the occasional typical malfunction.
Globemaster
03-01-09, 23:06
I built this Retro’ish carbine last year utilizing mostly 'used' parts along with an Olympic Arms barrel and bolt in the .221R / 5.54x39mm chambering … the build pretty much came together in one afternoon; other than the final process of pinning and welding of the 5.5in flashhider.
XM-177 Retro Parts List
Olympic Arms SS .221R barrel assembly 1:8 twist rate.
Complete 5.45x39mm bolt w/ firing pin.
A1 upper receiver w/ tear drop forward assist and w/o case deflector. *
OA barrel 16in / cut to 11.5in (pinned and welded) with 5.5in. Slotted Flash Hider.
Gas hole on the barrel was opened up .002 larger.
SNS MAX-15 Skull lower receiver.
Olympic Arms (LPK).
CAR style (3) position collapsible buttstock. *
A1 USGI pistol grip *
semi-custom triangle handguards w/ aluminum liner. *
( * ) denotes used part:
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Globemaster
03-01-09, 23:09
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Littlelebowski
03-02-09, 06:07
So, how does it shoot?
Robb Jensen
03-02-09, 07:09
In case anyone is wondering, a Surefire muzzle brake on a 5.45 makes for no muzzle lift. Addictive and fun :D
I've been meaning to ask you how effective that thing was on there, good to know. For a short while I had a Surefire 556MB (the short one) on my 3gun rifle and it was damn good, but being the tinkerer I am I like to try different ones. So I'm using the SJC Titan designed by Erik Lund which is very effective. I find the amount of muzzle lift to be the same as the Surefire but the recoil impulse is softer.
Here is a link to a video on Youtube of a couple 5.45's that are cut down to 10.5. The first one is on a SBR'ed S&W lower with the heavy trigger spring. The second one is on my SBR lower with a 2 stage trigger without the heavy spring..
The main test was just reliability of the weapon, The trigger test was secondary..
All in all both of the 5.45's are running quite well with the surplus 53 grain, and at 125.00 a 1,080. What a bonus..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7zEw7Ux_Vw
Tom C., feel free to bring your upper to the class this weekend and I will take a look at it for you (bring ammo as well).
C4
Any leads on these uppers actually being in stock and ready to ship? Did a google, didn't find much. :(
Any leads on these uppers actually being in stock and ready to ship? Did a google, didn't find much. :(
Try this http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/545x39-upper.php..Goodluck!
Try this http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/545x39-upper.php..Goodluck!
Sorry my mistake..
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/545x39-upper.php
again Goodluck!
Yeah, those are the Model1sales ones, I'll pass on that. I found a couple complete ones on GunsAmerica, maybe I'll just have one sent to my FFL.
Ammunition To Go had them for 579 or so as of a couple of weeks ago. My internet is acting up so I can't check right now.
Interesting thing I just found out.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3664/3359803742_2a127058cc_b.jpg
Bulgy AK74 mag, C Products mag, USGI aluminum, USGI with Magpul follower, PMag (it's painted, don't freak out), Lancer.
After looking at that, I'm wondering two things:
1. Why are the C Products springs so short (or why are the Bulgy springs so long)
2. Can I lop the front leg off of a PMag follower and make that sucker work with 5.45? I'm going to find out. I have plenty of PMags, I don't have any extra Magpul followers to chop up.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3538/3359803836_2a0b73bee4_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3438/3359804456_0ae2a6f193_b.jpg
Cool comparison. I'd like to see the CP 5.56 magazine in the mix as well.
Just took the plunge, upper should be here in about a week or so
i ordered 20 mags so we will see.......:D
i got my complete m&p15r a few weeks after the election from buds guns for a little under 8 bills. i made a significant investment in 7n6 from rguns last year for my ak74's. i got most of it for a little over .10 a round. i had also purchased quite a bit of the romanian hotshot 70gr from century when they had it for .12 a round. i have experienced zero problems with either round. the hotshot is a little lower poi and a little less accurate. no keyholing from either. i have put about 300 rounds of each ammo type through the rifle for a total of 600 problem free rounds. using c product mags of course.
the quality on the s&w is superb. ;)the gas key was staked properly, the stock nut was even staked. finish is excellent. the stock has a little more play than i would like, but it works fine. the trigger pull is a little heavy, but i'm a glock and ak guy for the most part so it doesn't bother me that much.
i didn't change a whole lot on the gun, a few creature comforts. houge rubberized pistol grip. i added a new colt carry handle to cover the sight issue. a gg&g sling thing. a vickers blue force sling. m4 fatty handguards. a rubber butt pad. nothing tacticool.
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/badka2ma/100_0646.jpg
this gun is more accurate with 7n6 as my lightweight bushmaster is shooting russian .223 55gr. when i shoot m193 through the bushmaster it's a pretty close contest. i am extremely pleased with this rifle. i wish i could afford another m&p in this caliber! there is a definite difference in heft between my bushmaster and s&w. the bushmaster is way lighter. it sports a car stock, skinny handguards, lightweight 16" barrel, flat top with flip up buis. it's a trade off. i would rather carry the bushmaster but shoot the smith.
i'm going to knob creek in a week or so. model 1 sales will be there. i'm considering buying a 5.45 barrel and bolt from them. i'm not that worried about the non-chrome lined bore as i dowse mine with steaming hot water, then clean as usual after a shooting. i'm hoping they are not gouging on parts at knob. if i can get the barrel and bolt for around $300 i'll pick it up.
i have a stash of m193 and a little m855 for my 5.56 guns but i don't want to shoot it with good 5.56 ammo going for over .40 a round, my m&p15r is my new buddy! will it outshoot my rra 1/8 stainless, no. but it does outshoot all of my ak74's. it's more than just a range gun. so far i would trust this gun just as much as any other ar15 i have. that being said, i love my ar's but, i'm still an ak guy at heart. here is my shtf gun.
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/badka2ma/100_0629.jpg
put another 120 flawless rounds through the s&w last night. me and my daughter shot until dark. met a guy shooting a bushmaster and he almost didn't believe me when i told him what caliber i was shooting. he was suprised that a major manufacturer was putting an ar15 together shooting the russkie round. he was mostly suprised when i told him i bought the bulk of my ammo last year for around .11 a round. he was overall impressed.
if i can't find a barrel and bolt at knob creek, i very well may take the plunge and get another m&p15r upper.
Littlelebowski
04-03-09, 11:58
Which model?
Forgot to answer this. MB556K I think.
NCPatrolAR
04-03-09, 12:01
Forgot to answer this. MB556K I think.
Appreciate it. My upper is currently at Smith, so I may see if my Surefire comp will fit when it comes back.
Littlelebowski
04-03-09, 12:03
Not sure if you're near VA but if you are, you're quite welcome to try mine out first. Be warned, the 5.45 AR with muzzle brake is addictive and fun.
NCPatrolAR
04-03-09, 12:07
Do you happen to have a picture of it?
Littlelebowski
04-03-09, 12:21
I'll try to get you one this afternoon. gotm4 installed it for me and it turned out very well.
30 cal slut
04-03-09, 14:51
up to a 3 month wait at AIM surplus.
Not a bad price for the package, though (complete upper + 2 cproducts mags)
Littlelebowski
04-03-09, 16:21
Here ya go, JW. Let me know if you want any other pics of it.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/photo-9.jpg
mskdgunman
04-03-09, 21:36
Is anyone aware of any companies selling just the barrels in 5.45? All I've been finding is complete uppers. MGI has a magazine conversion out that allows their system to use regular AK-74 mags and I'm sure that they'll market a barrel in the future but I'd like to have an option. I'm new to the 5.45 as a caliber and know almost nothing about it.
Ned Christiansen
04-04-09, 09:44
I'd like to have a blank or two for this caliber too but I doubt we'll be seeing it soon.
Is anyone aware of any companies selling just the barrels in 5.45? All I've been finding is complete uppers. MGI has a magazine conversion out that allows their system to use regular AK-74 mags and I'm sure that they'll market a barrel in the future but I'd like to have an option. I'm new to the 5.45 as a caliber and know almost nothing about it.
i spoke with model 1 sales this past week. they quoted me $200 on a chome-moly 5.45 barrel at $200. the bolt was $65. the lady i talked to said they don't use a heavier spring in the lower they use a different firing pin. i guess their pin is a little longer to compensate for the lack of power. which if it works makes for better trigger pull, although the s&w trigger doesn't really bother me. i think their pin was $20 but don't quote me on that one.
she told me that they are shipping 5.45 barrels and parts in 2-3 weeks. i asked her why that was when i heard there was a 6 month wait uppers and parts. she said that is only on 5.56 uppers. they have plenty of 5.45 barrels in stock right now. she said they are told to quote 2-3 weeks but it would probably be less.
if you are shooting corrosive 7n6 the only way i would buy a non-chrome lined bore and chamber is if you know that you will clean the gun religously after shooting. if that is the case i think it's a good buy. they come in 16" and 20" heavy barrels.
i just traded my bushmaster lightweight to my buddy for his unfired m&p15r last night and i'm still thinking about a 20" from model 1. i've got a shitload of 5.45 and i'm still picking it up here and there. i just got some more from sportsmansguide that was back ordered.
if you run out of 5.45 you can always rebarrel your guns back to 5.56 later if need be.
oh yeah, the mags, i just bought two cproducts for $20 a piece out the door, this weekend at knob creek. they ran flawless just like the first one. i put 160 rounds through my older smith tonite. i also shot my romy sar2. there is no comparison in accuracy, the smith kicks the romanians ass.
mskdgunman
04-05-09, 20:57
Thanks for the information, I'll have to give Model 1 a call this week. It's nice to know that at least some things are available without a 6 month wait time. I wonder what their wait times are their 7.62 x 39 barrels? I can only hope that it's the same and that there hasn't been a rush on those too.
Did I understand right that you can use the 5.56 bolt carrier assembly and just replace the actual bolt and firing pin? That would be nice...cheaper too and that doesn't happen often
Thanks again
Jay Cunningham
04-05-09, 21:05
Not to mention that I just cracked into a new can so this is an entirely new lot mixed with the old lot.
But I would tend to agree that the two failures to lock back the bolt are most easily explained by the mag springs.
Hey, I'm trying to break stuff so these are good results!
I am still happy with my upper for a training gun. I also still plan to do the ten mag dump.
Since my last session I upgraded the extractor components. Black insert, heavy spring, o-ring.
I shot the 5.45 today, running it through some very aggressive drills - low overall round count, but high ROF. I probably ran about six magazines through the weapon and experienced one failure to feed. I also had a mag that did not want to lock back on the last round. I am convinced that weak, short magazines springs are the main flaw.
However, for what I use the rifle for (practice only) I actually see it as a plus that it experiences the occasional malfunction. I will not be performing the 10 round mag dump as I previously posted, as I see no real point to it. I do not consider this a "go-to" rifle and I do not need 100% reliability from it.
Overall I remain happy with the rifle for its intended role.
Thanks for the information, I'll have to give Model 1 a call this week. It's nice to know that at least some things are available without a 6 month wait time. I wonder what their wait times are their 7.62 x 39 barrels? I can only hope that it's the same and that there hasn't been a rush on those too.
Did I understand right that you can use the 5.56 bolt carrier assembly and just replace the actual bolt and firing pin? That would be nice...cheaper too and that doesn't happen often
Thanks again
yes, the bolt carrier is the same. in the smith&wesson guns they use a heavier hammer spring to make up for the hard to fire russian military primers. model 1 says they use the regular hammer spring but a different firing pin. i have not had one single failfure to fire on my m&p15r and i'm pushing 900 rounds. it has been cleaned extensively after every shooting. it basically gets a steaming hot water bath. i take apart the bolt carrier group and scrub those parts with hot water and dawn detergent. run piping hot water down the gas tube and bore from inside the upper receiver using a measuring cup with a spout. then i air dry it all with my compressor. then clean as normal. easy as pie. and boy it's better than running a .22 conversion on an ar. so much better. since it's full power centerfire ammo you don't feel castrated!
went to the range today. it was a gloomy day in eastern missouri. chucking lead made it all better......
i took two guns. my s&w 5.45 and my rock river mid length.
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/badka2ma/100_0685.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/badka2ma/100_0686.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/badka2ma/100_0687.jpg
it took the 5.45 to break in two new mags. i shot 200 rounds of romanian 68gr hotshot. the first mag had issues for the first time i used it, several ftf. i just kept making the gun charge rounds, after about 8-10 it started working on it's own and continued to work the entire range visit. no problems with the second. these mags are different than the mag i received with the gun. it has a shiny black finish while the earlier mags have the permasilk type finish. as long as it continues to work i don't care. other than that, the rifle shot great as usual. i made an interesting trade this past week also. i like my 15r so much that i traded my used bushmaster lightweight for my buddy's unfired 15r. call me crazy. i have way more 5.45 than i do 5.56 so it makes sense to me. i put a yankee hill drop in rail on it with some ergo type ladder rail covers. a front grip and a cheap buis. i'm gonna hang for optics on this one and get the new burris 3x tactical scope sometime this summer when it's released.
i'm up to a little over 1200 rounds on the smith now with only a few magazine related ft's. it's a great gun!
my rock river i took to try out some hornady 75gr tap practice ammo. wow! i mean WOW! it is good stuff. open sights using my elbows on a table i shot about a 3 inch group right off the bat, i use my wifes nice paper plates, don't tell her...... then i started shooting the 100yd gongs. they are around 5 inch gongs. i was hammering them at will. my stash of m193 will not do that. i got the hornady for about .50 a round. i shot 20 rounds and called it a day on this stuff. i know it says practice but it is loaded with the same bullet as the regular tap ammo, it just has a steel case that is lacquer coated. i know molon on ar15.com got something like .37 inch groups with a scope, vise, and superb gun. i'm happy with i did using an matech buis. my eyes are getting older and not so good as they were twenty five years ago. i'm going to free float the barrel and put my leupold 3x9 on this gun eventually.
mskdgunman
04-12-09, 21:31
Very cool. I want a 5.45 set up so bad it's not funny. I want one more after this:D
I'm going to use mine at an 1800 round carbine class in a week and will give you the rundown afterward.
I'm going to use mine at an 1800 round carbine class in a week and will give you the rundown afterward.
And that is the kind of review I was looking for ...
Yes, I'm looking forward to seeing how it runs in this course. Here's what I can tell you upfront.
1) the bolt and carrier have been plated by Mahovsky's Metalife.
2) it is a surprisingly accurate barrel. For my 50-yard sight in to confirm zero last night, 5 rounds were in a 3/4" group with 3 rounds touching, and the other 2 rounds touching. Sorry, I didn't bring my camera.
3) I use a DPMS extra heavy buffer and Sprinco spring. Get the M4 upgrade kit offered by Blackheart International and Viking Tactics. And get it if you have a 5.56 carbine-length gas system too.
4) C Products seems to have an issue with making consistent springs for the 5.45 mags. I'd replace them with 5.56 springs, but not sure if they fit.
I suspect a lot of you are kicking yourselves for not getting one at $570 :p
Littlelebowski
04-14-09, 12:43
I don't have the kit in my M&P, I'm fine. Shoot, rinse off salts, relube, repeat.
I don't have the kit in my M&P, I'm fine. Shoot, rinse off salts, relube, repeat.
Same here. With a regular H buffer mine works 100%, and recoil is noticeably less than 5.56.
Jay Cunningham
04-14-09, 14:13
I'd replace them with 5.56 springs, but not sure if they fit.
They do not.
Same here. With a regular H buffer mine works 100%, and recoil is noticeably less than 5.56.
Try it with an H2 or H3 buffer, and stronger buffer spring. (mine wouldn't run with a Wolff, but did with a Sprinco) Even better. I can imagine that a compensator would make it even better.
Littlelebowski
04-14-09, 15:19
It is very nice with a Surefire brake. No muzzle lift to speak of.
NCPatrolAR
04-20-09, 12:06
has anyone tried 70gr Wolf through their 15R? How was accuracy and did you need the heavy trigger spring?
Yes, I'm looking forward to seeing how it runs in this course. Here's what I can tell you upfront.
1) the bolt and carrier have been plated by Mahovsky's Metalife.
2) it is a surprisingly accurate barrel. For my 50-yard sight in to confirm zero last night, 5 rounds were in a 3/4" group with 3 rounds touching, and the other 2 rounds touching. Sorry, I didn't bring my camera.
3) I use a DPMS extra heavy buffer and Sprinco spring. Get the M4 upgrade kit offered by Blackheart International and Viking Tactics. And get it if you have a 5.56 carbine-length gas system too.
4) C Products seems to have an issue with making consistent springs for the 5.45 mags. I'd replace them with 5.56 springs, but not sure if they fit.
I suspect a lot of you are kicking yourselves for not getting one at $570 :p
i got my complete gun for $780! :D i ordered it the day after the election from buds gun shop.
has anyone tried 70gr Wolf through their 15R? How was accuracy and did you need the heavy trigger spring?
I fired a 5-shot group out of a cold barrel with 70 gr Wolf mil classic and got the following results with an Aimpoint T-1. 50 yards, indoor range, off a GripPod
3 bullets were touching in a slightly upwardly diagonal string. 1/2" away, 2 bullets were touching. I don't know if you really need the heavy trigger spring on commercial ammo. I can test it and report back in a week or two.
I fired 1600 over 3 days at the recent VTAC class with no issues. That ammo is really dirty, so you have to keep the BCG really lubed when you shoot really high volume.
S&W did a great job on that barrel.
YMMV.
has anyone tried 70gr Wolf through their 15R? How was accuracy and did you need the heavy trigger spring?
I've been saving my 70gr but I have used the 60gr Wolf and yes I did need the heavy trigger spring. The first time I tried the standard spring and had a mags worth of hit primers/ failure to fires. Changed out the spring and all is well.
ohiorifleman
04-24-09, 22:38
I never thought I would own one in this caliber- but I just traded about 800.00 worth of handguns for a new complete S&W M&P15R and 500 rds of Silver Bear.
The dealer, who I just had in one of my CCW classes, knew I was an AR guy and called me saying he ordered two of these and was having a hard time selling the second one due to the unfamiliarity with the cartridge. So for once in my life it was a buyers market...
I think I have read most of this post and can't recall if anyone has used the Silver Bear ammo in one- if you have any experience with that ammo- how does it work?
I might take a can of russian surplus along with me to the range on Sunday- just in case
Has anyone tried a piston conversion with 5.45? I know Amphibean on another board tried 7.62x39 with an Ares conversion but it was a no-go.
ROCKET20_GINSU
04-30-09, 20:55
first 50 free trouble rounds down range for me! My RDS and BUIS are both zeroed.
I like it, knowing that I am paying 1/2 - 1/3 of my 5.56 prices while still doing realistic training feels great.
I got apx 1.5 in groups at 50 m, not bad I think. Definitely good enough for training and the price is right. If I was a better shooter, and I didn't have to use that heavy hammer spring and had magnified optics I think it'd do even better.
FUN FUN FUN!
GU
Try it with an H2 or H3 buffer, and stronger buffer spring. (mine wouldn't run with a Wolff, but did with a Sprinco) Even better. I can imagine that a compensator would make it even better.
Or you can use an MGI adjustable gas tube like I did. You can control the precise amount of gas that is used to cycle the weapon for a particular type of ammo. For instance I have about 1900 rds of Wolf 60gr FMJ. I have the gas tube set to just barely cycle with the Wolf and Loctited (not the permanent stuff, just medium grade) it in place since I have so much of that ammo. Negates having to buy extra weight buffers or extra strength springs.
YMMV.
i might just have to go ahead and get one of those put together
Jay Cunningham
05-30-09, 19:01
I took the 5.45 out today to test a couple of tweaks. I replaced the anemic CProducts springs with 5.45mm AK-74 springs clipped to the same approximate length as a standard USGI spring. I also replaced the H buffer that I was using with an H3.
I loaded one round in all 10 magazines to see if they would hold the bolt back on the last round. The first mag did not but the remaining nine did - my mags are numbered so I noted it. I then did the same procedure with two rounds in each mag - the same magazine as before failed to lock the bolt back on the last round, so I separated it from the rest.
Otherwise, the gun not only shot well - it felt great! Fantastic recoil characteristics! I loaded up the nine good magazines with three rounds each and repeated... everything was great. I took apart the mag that was giving me trouble to inspect it. Nothing obvious, but AK-74 springs *can* be put in backwards... they need to slant the same way the magazine is curved. I carefully made sure that the spring was installed correctly and that appeared to be the answer - the mag now worked.
So, total tweaks to date include replacement of original extractor guts with BCM upgrade kit, replaced gas rings, H3 buffer, new magazine springs. This gun runs great and shoots great now. C4IGrant suggested most of these tweaks and he was right on.
Littlelebowski
05-30-09, 19:22
I haven't had to do any of those upgrades nor have I had any problems with the C Products mags. How badly was your carbine running before the upgrades, TK?
Jay Cunningham
05-30-09, 19:34
I haven't had to do any of those upgrades nor have I had any problems with the C Products mags. How badly was your carbine running before the upgrades, TK?
It was running pretty good - I would say a solid 90%. I suspect it's 100% now. If you go back and re-read the thread (yeah, I know :rolleyes:) you'll see that I really haven't had any problems to speak of besides one stuck case/failure to extract in around 1000 rounds. But the substandard mag springs were causing failures to lock the bolt back on the last round.
Littlelebowski
05-30-09, 19:57
I'm running mine bone stock except for an H1 buffer. Probably about 4K-ish rds through it, maybe 5K. Never had a problem with mine not locking the bolt back with C Products mags nor Lancers. Perhaps S&W made changes in manufacture. I have 8 C Products mags, mixed between the older ones and the new black ones. I've learned not to leave the Lancers loaded with 5.45 as the mags to spread quite a bit, to the point of having to really jam them into the rifle.
I'd like to note that I am still very hapy with my investment in this product.
Littlelebowski
05-30-09, 21:01
It was running pretty good - I would say a solid 90%. I suspect it's 100% now. If you go back and re-read the thread (yeah, I know :rolleyes:) you'll see that I really haven't had any problems to speak of besides one stuck case/failure to extract in around 1000 rounds. But the substandard mag springs were causing failures to lock the bolt back on the last round.
Then the gas rings, buffer, and extractor upgrade didn't fix all that much then, did they?
You should try mine with the Surefire muzle brake on it. A pleasure to shoot.
Jay Cunningham
05-30-09, 22:23
Then the gas rings, buffer, and extractor upgrade didn't fix all that much then, did they?
You should try mine with the Surefire muzle brake on it. A pleasure to shoot.
The issues aren't at the muzzle.
I didn't replace the extractor components and the gas rings on a whim, I replaced them because they were already worn at only 1,000 rounds.
Locking the bolt back reliably every time with an H3 buffer indicates that the gun is way overgassed. Grant theorized that the chambers on these earlier models are a little tight and that the gun was getting the job done because it is so overgassed. Grant noted the hard felt recoil and I noted it too. The theory that we are working with is that the tight chamber is causing the gun to violently extract and the hard felt recoil is from the pressure spike. So the real answer is a chamber reamer... the H3 buffer is a band-aid. Perhaps the G-Man can chime in with some additional thoughts.
In the end, these are all tweaks - I'm quite pleased with the rifle over all; it fulfills its purpose well.
Failure2Stop
05-31-09, 01:27
So the real answer is a chamber reamer... the H3 buffer is a band-aid.
Does this exist, or is there a possibility of someone bringing it to market?
Are more recent barrels reamed to different dimensions?
Jay Cunningham
05-31-09, 01:29
Does this exist, or is there a possibility of someone bringing it to market?
Are more recent barrels reamed to different dimensions?
Perhaps the G-Man will comment on this. I *think* S&W made modifications to the chamber.
Littlelebowski
05-31-09, 08:47
The issues aren't at the muzzle.
I didn't replace the extractor components and the gas rings on a whim, I replaced them because they were already worn at only 1,000 rounds.
Locking the bolt back reliably every time with an H3 buffer indicates that the gun is way overgassed. Grant theorized that the chambers on these earlier models are a little tight and that the gun was getting the job done because it is so overgassed. Grant noted the hard felt recoil and I noted it too. The theory that we are working with is that the tight chamber is causing the gun to violently extract and the hard felt recoil is from the pressure spike. So the real answer is a chamber reamer... the H3 buffer is a band-aid. Perhaps the G-Man can chime in with some additional thoughts.
In the end, these are all tweaks - I'm quite pleased with the rifle over all; it fulfills its purpose well.
The comment about the muzzlebrake was merely an observation in the same vein as your comment about felt recoil - I was saying that the SF brake makes what is already a low recoil rifle a giggle to shoot.
I need to check my rings and extractor, anything I should be looking for?
Have you thought about polishing the chamber with JB or something similar?
Jay Cunningham
06-24-09, 17:59
Plan on taking this out for some drills tomorrow - maybe I can try out my new camera, too!
;)
Jay Cunningham
07-13-09, 21:55
http://m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=93&pictureid=442
10 rounds, 100 yards, prone position, Russian surplus 5.45mm, S&W upper with Aimpoint CompML2. All rounds in black, eight in 10-ring.
http://m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=93&pictureid=443
Smith & Wesson M&P15R upper receiver assembly on Sabre Defense lower. Aimpoint CompML2 in QRP mount, DD Omega 7.0, TD short VFG, BFG Redi-Mag, upgraded CProducts magazines, MagPul MOE grip, LMT SOPMOD stock, Padded QD Vickers sling. Awaiting MOE rear sight.
Kater - you firing any corrosive ammo? Wondering what your cleaning regiment is if so.
Jay Cunningham
07-13-09, 22:06
Russian surplus 5.45mm is corrosive. I cleaned my gun tonight after I shot it. You don't need to do any magic voodoo - just field strip and clean the gun after you shoot.
decodeddiesel
07-13-09, 22:07
Kater - you firing any corrosive ammo? Wondering what your cleaning regiment is if so.
I am a big believer in the boiling water flush, with the WD-40 purge.
Page 1, Post 9.
Roger that - standard practice with AK74 - looking for any potential nuances with an AR.
Thanks guys!
I participated in the ACTS Combat Rifle Championship in MI over the weekend with my M&P 5.45 upper to push my round count over 3k. Still, I have used mostly Bulgarian. With CP 5.45 mags, I have only had 2 malfunctions that were probably not operator caused. Both did occur w/ the same mag.
BTW, if you get a .223 in your mag you will probably be mortar clearing it. Ask me how I know. That one cost me dearly while engaging threats from a moving vehicle. :(
Jay Cunningham
07-13-09, 22:14
Page 1, Post 9.
I have come to the conclusion that all of that stuff with the water and the WD-40 or the Ballistol mixture is unnecessary. Just clean your gun like your pappy taught you. Eventually the gas tube might get crapped up but you can swap that out for about $10 including a new roll pin.
Hi i thought i would chime in, a friend of mine bought a 5.45 upper to run at our local match, but soon sold it due of the fact it ran so dirty, if hes like me and hates to clean any more than necessary. I received an interesting call from one of my distributors the other day, and he told me that the Osprey gas piston had been approved for the 6.5, 6.8, and the 5.45X39. So i was wondering if this simple retrofit would fix the corrosion issues that plague this caliber, since its a self cleaning system? An AR running 5.56 only needs cleaning approximately every 6600 rds i wonder how long you could get from it running 5.45?
There is (was) an article in Small Arms Review either the June or July issue concerning corrosive ammo. From what I read it is the primers that are actually corrosive. IIRC the corrosion is actually caused by moisture that is attracted by the chemical residue. Maybe I missed something but from what I can tell if you practice good maintenance procedures then you shouldn't have any issues.
Jay Cunningham
07-14-09, 04:20
There is (was) an article in Small Arms Review either the June or July issue concerning corrosive ammo. From what I read it is the primers that are actually corrosive. IIRC the corrosion is actually caused by moisture that is attracted by the chemical residue. Maybe I missed something but from what I can tell if you practice good maintenance procedures then you shouldn't have an issues.
Everything that you've stated is true, however everyone seems to have their own magical secret recipe about how to take care of these corrosive salt deposits left by the primers... this mostly comes from AK enthusiasts who seem to have a penchant for the exotic... I got sucked into it as well for a while - ultimately if you just go through normal cleaning procedures that should take care of mechanically removing all of the stuff that people are trying to dissolve away.
Actually I am testing another technique that involves me urinating on some of the key components in the hopes that the urine will counteract the residue. We'll see how that works out. :D
Everything that you've stated is true, however everyone seems to have their own magical secret recipe about how to take care of these corrosive salt deposits left by the primers... this mostly comes from AK enthusiasts who seem to have a penchant for the exotic... I got sucked into it as well for a while - ultimately if you just go through normal cleaning procedures that should take care of mechanically removing all of the stuff that people are trying to dissolve away.
Interest in these seems to have flamed out. Is it an upper production issue, ammo availability issue, or something else?
Last year I started a post on ARFCOM asking why people were shying away from 5.45 in the AR platform. There was a ton of hate directed at that caliber. Some people had legitimate reasons for not switching over. Other responses were just plain silly. The following is a summary of all.
Corrosive ammo
Uncertain future supply of ammo
Dissatisfaction with available projectiles/ballistics
Cannot shoot steel plates
Difficulty in reloading
Unwillingness to adopt another caliber w/o any intelligible explanation
Unwillingness to adopt another caliber due to cost of mags, upper, etc
Dissatisfaction w/ mag situation
Would rather get a .22lr conversion
Would rather go 5.45 in an AK
Have enough 5.55/.223 so that no need is seen for 5.45
Limited manufacturing support for complete rifles/uppers/parts
I jumped on the ammo big when it was at its lowest price. My 5.45 gun is serving my training needs admirably. .223 ammo costs are going to have to drop into the mid $1xx/k range for me to regret my decision. I still want to purchase an extra chrome-lined 5.45 barrel and extractors to solidify my position. I already have extra stripped 5.45 bolts.
Jay Cunningham
07-14-09, 08:19
Interest in these seems to have flamed out. Is it an upper production issue, ammo availability issue, or something else?
Wish I knew; I'm pretty damn happy with mine as a training/practice weapon.
Jay Cunningham
07-14-09, 08:24
Corrosive ammo - silly concern
Uncertain future supply of ammo - buy now
Dissatisfaction with available projectiles/ballistics - mine's for training, not for defense
Cannot shoot steel plates - hmmm....
Difficulty in reloading - no shit
Unwillingness to adopt another caliber w/o any intelligible explanation - personal preference
Unwillingness to adopt another caliber due to cost of mags, upper, etc - this is legit
Dissatisfaction w/ mag situation - I've upgraded my springs... they seem to work ok
Would rather get a .22lr conversion - unsat for my purposes... the 5.45 round closesly replicates the characteristics of the 5.56
Would rather go 5.45 in an AK - legit
Have enough 5.55/.223 so that no need is seen for 5.45 - some guys were smart enough to stockpile
Limited manufacturing support for complete rifles/uppers/parts - meh; I think S&W will support their product
.....
bsf that seems to be a pretty good list actually. Other than the reloading issue, it pretty well parallels what made me reluctant at first. I think I did some initial cost estimates on what I knew I'd sink in the project (which may be different than what I'd *have* to spend, or what others might spend) and what I wound up with was a whole new gun to include optic that was going to cost me $1500 give or take the magazines, and figuring out where I'd need to be in terms of ammo savings at the time just didn't make it viable for me.
Thanks for reminding me! :D
I will say this though, clearly it could be done for a lot cheaper. You could use one lower from a 5.56 gun, swap the optic back and forth between uppers taking note of the clicks, and limit yourself to one "load out" of magazines. I just know myself, and I know I'd wind up with a complete gun and at least 10 magazines.
Something else that I think may be missing from that list, at least from my perspective, is a need to tinker with the thing. I have zero interest in spending time trying to fidget with the gun/mags to get it to run.
Of course, if I was starting fresh from scratch today I might be inclined to own a 5.45 AR and 20k rounds of ammo and a 6.8 AR and 2k rounds of ammo and potentially not have a 5.56 at all! :eek:
bsf that seems to be a pretty good list actually. Other than the reloading issue, it pretty well parallels what made me reluctant at first. I think I did some initial cost estimates on what I knew I'd sink in the project (which may be different than what I'd *have* to spend, or what others might spend) and what I wound up with was a whole new gun to include optic that was going to cost me $1500 give or take the magazines, and figuring out where I'd need to be in terms of ammo savings at the time just didn't make it viable for me.
Thanks for reminding me! :D
I will say this though, clearly it could be done for a lot cheaper. You could use one lower from a 5.56 gun, swap the optic back and forth between uppers taking note of the clicks, and limit yourself to one "load out" of magazines. I just know myself, and I know I'd wind up with a complete gun and at least 10 magazines.
Something else that I think may be missing from that list, at least from my perspective, is a need to tinker with the thing. I have zero interest in spending time trying to fidget with the gun/mags to get it to run.
Of course, if I was starting fresh from scratch today I might be inclined to own a 5.45 AR and 20k rounds of ammo and a 6.8 AR and 2k rounds of ammo and potentially not have a 5.56 at all! :eek:
As far as non-ammo expenses are concerned, I only looked at 5.45 specific components: barrel, bolt, extractor, and mag. I have not had to tinker w/ mine. I am not a huge gear/gun guy and needed a backup for my 5.56 M4gery when I built this. Going 5.45 worked well for my situation.
I know that I am still debating getting one or maybe just getting a 5.45 AK. I can buy almost 3K of 5.45 for the cost of one decent case of M193 ammo. I bet none of the whiners that bsf mentioned would stand down range if someone was launching 5.45 ammo at them so I have no idea what that whole steel plate thing is about.
I am leaning more towards the upper just because I can work on the AR platform like nothing and allows pimpage. If the right deal comes along I'll probably spring it.
i am with Katar on all of the list, but some of it is people who dont have an overall knowledge of whats so in the market place now.
1. ammo supply a.i.m. has it at 150.00 al u can pay for
2. want ak i cant ,injury in viet nam ,my face swells up (no cracks) from the recoil.
3. its not a .22. its a real world cartridge with high lethality.
4. i have a stadard full size s&w runs perfectly
5. i have a 10-1/2" smith upper that runs perfectely
6. 223 cans work, h&k mags work, c-products mags work, some std ar mags work(try them 1st)
whats not to like
most of the reasons are valid on a case by case basis. but overall. in todays tight ammo market its a 101% home run
and yes i have stored enuff .223 toi shoot the rest of my llife. i just like the cartridge.
hope this helps
Littlelebowski
07-14-09, 10:58
Corrosive ammo is a non issue if you do a modicum of PM however in a humid environment, I have seen significant corrosion literally overnight.
Great weapon, great value. I'm glad people aren't interested in them anymore.
Nice shooting TK!
Jay Cunningham
07-14-09, 11:06
Corrosive ammo is a non issue if you do a modicum of PM however in a humid environment, I have seen significant corrosion literally overnight.
Agree, you can get bright orange corrosion over night in a humid environment. With all of the little doo-dads with storage compartments these days it should be easy to keep a BoreSnake and a little bottle of CLP on the weapon. I have an old, beat-up SOPMOD stock and it will hold a brush as well, which is great for the bolt face.
Great weapon, great value. I'm glad people aren't interested in them anymore.
Agree again.
Nice shooting TK!
Thanks! The gun is plenty accurate for me!
Littlelebowski
07-14-09, 11:09
It makes me look forward to trying some of the different ammo out of mine.
FYI, I've noticed much less corrosion using WeaponShield compared to Slip2K.
Jay Cunningham
07-14-09, 11:10
It makes me look forward to trying some of the different ammo out of mine.
FYI, I've noticed much less corrosion using WeaponShield compared to Slip2K.
I heavily lubed mine with WeaponShield last night after I cleaned it - I love the stuff.
:cool:
Littlelebowski
07-14-09, 11:45
jjw, thank you for your service.
I have not ever had an issue with the C mags. I must be special.
IG, do it or get off the pot already! The ammo
is still cheap and still around.
I just recently bought an AK in 5.45 and I tell you what, I don't cringe every time I pull the trigger on ammo that costs .14 per round. At least not like I do when shooting 5.56. All that cringing was throwing my shots off. ;)
It's kinda nice to go out shooting and not be overly concerned about expense. Shooting nearly anything is better than just not shooting at all. I was pretty close to that point a few months back. I just reloaded and reloaded but never shot any of my 5.56 for fear that I'd not be able to replenish it. Then I bought the 5.45 and about 10k rounds for it for around $1500(1500 for the ammo). Don't get me wrong, I love to reload, but it sure is nice to have the sun on your face and a rifle in your hands. Puts a smile on my face every time.
Jay Cunningham
07-14-09, 11:51
I admit that I am hoarding my 5.56mm green tip for shooting schools. I think I'm going to buy another can of 5.45mm from AIM tonight...
;)
Hey if I want to waffle a little let me. :D
1. Where does one get spare bolts and barrels for the S&W?
2. Can the Cproducts mags be rebuilt if needed?
3. Any other things that I need to know about it?
jjw, thank you for your service.
I have not ever had an issue with the C mags. I must be special.
IG, do it or get off the pot already! The ammo
is still cheap and still around.
30 cal slut
07-14-09, 11:57
Actually I am testing another technique that involves me urinating on some of the key compenents in the hopes that the urine will couteract the residue. We'll see how that works out. :D
ew......
Interest in these seems to have flamed out. Is it an upper production issue, ammo availability issue, or something else?Still interested, just can't find an upper <$800...
spare parts: smith has them but will not sell till caught up. they will sell to civilians when caught up.
c-products mags rebuild: dont need to be bad 1's send back to c-products. have over 25 for personal use. sold over 300 for cistomers i seem to be the only 1 with a bad 1. note in box asked cistopmers to send back to me. would replace fr free. wanted to track them. also have sold 5,ooo ar mags by them in the last 3 yrs.
other things: clean it with soap and water use gun scrubber, lub with miltec. have used Baltisol (?) does good but real expensive and hard to find. just bought 5 cans form brownells for 1/2 what the local shyster was charging me.
ask i am around, and been shooting these things for over a year.
disclaimer: i am in the industry do not sell guns: smith&wesson did send me a gun to keep. be aware. love the bullet love the gun. i would have bought 1 anyway.
Lynn Freshly did an absolute beautiful job of turning it brown. cant post a pic or i would show the finished product
good luck
jjw,
Thanks for the info. I just like to make sure that if I drop the money I can support thing with parts or whatever if necessary. I am not a big fan of sending stuff in for repair. Especially firearms.
spare parts: smith has them but will not sell till caught up. they will sell to civilians when caught up.
c-products mags rebuild: dont need to be bad 1's send back to c-products. have over 25 for personal use. sold over 300 for cistomers i seem to be the only 1 with a bad 1. note in box asked cistopmers to send back to me. would replace fr free. wanted to track them. also have sold 5,ooo ar mags by them in the last 3 yrs.
other things: clean it with soap and water use gun scrubber, lub with miltec. have used Baltisol (?) does good but real expensive and hard to find. just bought 5 cans form brownells for 1/2 what the local shyster was charging me.
ask i am around, and been shooting these things for over a year.
disclaimer: i am in the industry do not sell guns: smith&wesson did send me a gun to keep. be aware. love the bullet love the gun. i would have bought 1 anyway.
Lynn Freshly did an absolute beautiful job of turning it brown. cant post a pic or i would show the finished product
good luck
i am with Katar on all of the list, but some of it is people who dont have an overall knowledge of whats so in the market place now.
1. ammo supply a.i.m. has it at 150.00 al u can pay for
2. want ak i cant ,injury in viet nam ,my face swells up (no cracks) from the recoil.
3. its not a .22. its a real world cartridge with high lethality.
4. i have a stadard full size s&w runs perfectly
5. i have a 10-1/2" smith upper that runs perfectely
6. 223 cans work, h&k mags work, c-products mags work, some std ar mags work(try them 1st)
whats not to like
most of the reasons are valid on a case by case basis. but overall. in todays tight ammo market its a 101% home run
and yes i have stored enuff .223 toi shoot the rest of my llife. i just like the cartridge.
hope this helps
On 6. Old GI 20rd mags work 100% for me if loaded to 16 rds or less. If I load more than 16 the rounds start to bind. 16 or less feeds smoothly. I'll be trying some Brownells 20rd mags soon. I do have C product mags, but another option for mags.
Simple question for everyone.
I just purchased an new M&P15R. I'm a big fan of the saying, if isn't broke don't fix it. Are there any necessary modifications that should be made? Whether it be the buffer, part of the FCG, etc.? Or should I expect to be ready to go?
19 pages of gas port discussions and the like have me wondering if any of these should be changed out from the get go or not.
Thanks! :D
Littlelebowski
07-22-09, 09:15
Simple question for everyone.
I just purchased an new M&P15R. I'm a big fan of the saying, if isn't broke don't fix it. Are there any necessary modifications that should be made? Whether it be the buffer, part of the FCG, etc.? Or should I expect to be ready to go?
19 pages of gas port discussions and the like have me wondering if any of these should be changed out from the get go or not.
Thanks! :D
Mine ran fine from the get go and thousands of rounds later is still running fine. Shoot a few hundred rounds through it first.
I strongly recommend WeaponShield CLP/lube. I see a lot less corrosion using it.
Jay Cunningham
07-22-09, 10:10
I strongly recommend WeaponShield CLP/lube. I see a lot less corrosion using it.
Agree with this.
Aside from good lube, almost everything that I've done to my gun are simply "tweaks".
Agree with this.
Aside from good lube, almost everything that I've done to my gun are simply "tweaks".
Weaponshield...uhn, I'll have to pick some up.
Tweaks meaning things such as switching out the grip or stock? Aesthetics?
Globemaster
07-22-09, 19:03
it's pretty good suff ... :)
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/globemaster_oly/DSCN6713.jpg
Jay Cunningham
07-22-09, 20:07
Weaponshield...uhn, I'll have to pick some up.
Tweaks meaning things such as switching out the grip or stock? Aesthetics?
No, I mean changing to an H3 buffer, a BCM extractor upgrade kit and changing magazine springs.
No, I mean changing to an H3 buffer, a BCM extractor upgrade kit and changing magazine springs.
Gotcha. Thanks!
I bought the 5.45 rifle, not just the upper. This thing has run 100% with Wolf ammo. I haven't fed it any thing else yet.
The Mag that came with it runs fine (C prod). The only GI 5.56 mags that it runs well with it are Parsons. I've tried Colt, OK and some others I can't remember.
I ordered 5 C Prod mags and they're still in the wrapper.
Jay Cunningham
07-27-09, 20:06
I know that I am still debating getting one or maybe just getting a 5.45 AK. I can buy almost 3K of 5.45 for the cost of one decent case of M193 ammo. I bet none of the whiners that bsf mentioned would stand down range if someone was launching 5.45 ammo at them so I have no idea what that whole steel plate thing is about.
I am leaning more towards the upper just because I can work on the AR platform like nothing and allows pimpage. If the right deal comes along I'll probably spring it.
Cope's has them:
http://www.copesdistributing.net/product_info.php?products_id=1020
Jay Cunningham
08-03-09, 12:16
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/IMG_0349.jpg
Mini Range report - Only had maybe 50 rounds total Barnul through it to zero it prior. I just put 350rnds through my "new" M15R of Russian corrosive ammo. I used 10 new CProduct mags total. Had 2 of the same feed issues where when stripping a round, it nosed up into the lugs at the top of the barrel extension. This was on two different mags and once cleared, continued to fire the rest of the mag fine. Not sure if this is a "break-in-the-mag" issue. It seems these steel mags do get somewhat broken-in due to the simple usage.
Jay Cunningham
08-03-09, 20:42
I am conducting a mag experiment. In five I am running the original springs with the modified TD ARC Mag followers, and in the other five I am running the clipped AK-74 mag springs with the original followers.
On a related note, I found out that cutting the AK-74 mag springs to approximately the same length as a USGI mag spring does not leave enough room to allow seating on a closed bolt (loaded with 28 rounds) - they basically need to be cut to almost the same length as the original (CProd) springs...
Where did you get the AK74 mag springs?
I am a big believer in the boiling water flush, with the WD-40 purge.
Boiling water yes, WD-40. Your kidding right, Its great lube for bicycle chains ,lock cores, door hinges ect. but NOT firearms. The problem is that WD-40 is lighter than water and water will bead the lube and get under it thus sitting on the metal and rust the rifle. Thirty years ago My friend had a $2000.00 Italian custom over and under shotgun ruined using WD-40. He was caught in the rain hunting birds and when He got home He wiped down the gun and sprayed it down with WD-40 and put it in the gun cabinet, about a month later He pulled it out and it looked like it had been thrown in the ocean and let dry. He got to checking his other guns and found them rusting also not quit as bad but enough to Pitt the bluing.I know that most AR,S are of rust proof metals but, I think about Garry,s guns every time I see a can of WD-40. A good gun oil/lube is a lot cheaper than a new gun or the time and money it takes to restore the finish. Just an old fools .02 cents worth.;)
Patriot
Jay Cunningham
08-14-09, 22:02
You might want to go back and re-read what I wrote.
Boiling water yes, WD-40. Your kidding right, Its great lube for bicycle chains ,lock cores, door hinges ect. but NOT firearms. The problem is that WD-40 is lighter than water and water will bead the lube and get under it thus sitting on the metal and rust the rifle. Thirty years ago My friend had a $2000.00 Italian custom over and under shotgun ruined using WD-40. He was caught in the rain hunting birds and when He got home He wiped down the gun and sprayed it down with WD-40 and put it in the gun cabinet, about a month later He pulled it out and it looked like it had been thrown in the ocean and let dry. He got to checking his other guns and found them rusting also not quit as bad but enough to Pitt the bluing.I know that most AR,S are of rust proof metals but, I think about Garry,s guns every time I see a can of WD-40. A good gun oil/lube is a lot cheaper than a new gun or the time and money it takes to restore the finish. Just an old fools .02 cents worth.;)
Patriot
WD-40 is exactly what you want after a water bath for corrosive salts. No one said it was being used as a lube. (And btw, most all petroleum based lubes are lighter than water). It is being used for what it was made for, "water displacement". That is what the WD stands for (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wd-40).
After your water bath, get as much water off the gun etc through drip dry/towel, etc. Then spray WD-40 in all the nooks, crannies, corners, tight spots, and everywhere. Let that sit a while. Wipe the WD-40 off and lube with your normal favorite lube.
WD-40 is not being used as a lube!
What your friend did wrong was to not lube the gun after spraying it with WD-40. I would suspect he was in a high humidity environment. WD-40 evaporates pretty fast so after spraying it with WD-40, he left it put away and the WD-40 evaporated away and left it unprotected. I would bet the humidity is what did it in.
I am conducting a mag experiment. In five I am running the original springs with the modified TD ARC Mag followers, and in the other five I am running the clipped AK-74 mag springs with the original followers.
On a related note, I found out that cutting the AK-74 mag springs to approximately the same length as a USGI mag spring does not leave enough room to allow seating on a closed bolt (loaded with 28 rounds) - they basically need to be cut to almost the same length as the original (CProd) springs...Have you tried the ARC mags with the upper?
Just got my upper, and I'll be wringing it out next week to see if it's ready for classwork. I'm planning on trying the CP mags and some TD ARC mags through it. Also picked up a PRI adjustable gasblock to see if dialing down the gas helps out. Thanks to you and Grant for doing the debug legwork...
Failure2Stop
08-21-09, 00:36
I just plunged as well after some time on Littlelebowski's 5.45 and this thread.
Thanks for the continuing data everyone.
Globemaster
08-21-09, 01:05
been there for the past couple of years now … this is my Retro’ish 5.45
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/globemaster_oly/DSCN7620.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/globemaster_oly/DSCN8597.jpg
Jay Cunningham
08-21-09, 04:18
I just picked up another tin of Russian from AIM - they have a one cent shipping deal, which is pretty good.
Jay Cunningham
08-21-09, 04:20
Have you tried the ARC mags with the upper?
Just got my upper, and I'll be wringing it out next week to see if it's ready for classwork. I'm planning on trying the CP mags and some TD ARC mags through it. Also picked up a PRI adjustable gasblock to see if dialing down the gas helps out. Thanks to you and Grant for doing the debug legwork...
No data yet on the ARC followers other than they seem to feed and lock back the bolt fine hand-cycling the action.
Littlelebowski
08-21-09, 08:18
After FTS shot mine and saw how it ran (perfectly with the C mags), he then saw my cleaning regimen which is spray the weapon's internals with glass cleaner and then rinse with really hot water and air dry, then relube. It works for me and it works well. The rifle hasn't had a real cleaning in at least 3K rds. Just rinsing and application of more WeaponShield.
Folks, stop obsessing about this upper. Just read this thread before you ask questions.
No data yet on the ARC followers other than they seem to feed and lock back the bolt fine hand-cycling the action.
I saw much better results hand cycling with the Arc follower than the stock follower. I've shot them a little bit also, probably 2 mags worth on each. So far, they work. Each mag I tried the Arc follower in had given me trouble before. Each mag worked after the swap. I'm quite pleased with the Arc followers so far, but I admit that my sample size is quite small and not proven over time.
If I could swap them into a regular 5.56 mag and get them to feed 5.45, that'd be the balls. No luck with that yet, but I've only tried with Lancer mags so far.
My next experiment will be to swap the stock hammer spring back in so I can knock this trigger weight down a bit.
Jay Cunningham
08-21-09, 10:51
I saw much better results hand cycling with the Arc follower than the stock follower. I've shot them a little bit also, probably 2 mags worth on each. So far, they work. Each mag I tried the Arc follower in had given me trouble before. Each mag worked after the swap. I'm quite pleased with the Arc followers so far, but I admit that my sample size is quite small and not proven over time.
If I could swap them into a regular 5.56 mag and get them to feed 5.45, that'd be the balls. No luck with that yet, but I've only tried with Lancer mags so far.
My next experiment will be to swap the stock hammer spring back in so I can knock this trigger weight down a bit.
I think that the ARC follower (in addition to truly being no-tilt) noses the tips of the rounds up. I don't think you are going to have a lot of luck with the stock hammer spring on combloc ammo.
For what it's worth, I've had good luck so far with an RRA 2 stage trigger (I know, I know) using the heavy hammer spring.
No data yet on the ARC followers other than they seem to feed and lock back the bolt fine hand-cycling the action.I see. Has anyone tried just plain complete ARC mags?
I see. Has anyone tried just plain complete ARC mags?
That's a no go. For anything above ~12 rounds.
Another dismal day at the range. This time I switched back to my Bushmaster lower which worked fine before and I had the same results....struck primer, not firing. I took the bolt apart and cleaned it up and switched hammers and springs and put it back in my S&W lower, same result. I've come to the conclusion that the hammer spring has weakened and I'll order a couple new ones from Wolff and give it another try. I had 16 failure to fire, struck primers. This is Wolf ammo by the way, not the surplus Russian or Bulgarian
1000s of rounds down the pipe on numerous 5.45x39 uppers with Rock River two-stage triggers and NO issues! It’s the only way I will run with the combloc surplus ammo I have.
Could it be the firing pin?
Here’s an old link showing my testing of the two-stage trigger.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7zEw7Ux_Vw
decodeddiesel
08-24-09, 09:28
Has anyone chopped one of these barrels to 10.5" or 11.5" and ran them?
Jay Cunningham
08-24-09, 11:41
Didn't crossgun mention doing this?
decodeddiesel
08-24-09, 11:45
Didn't crossgun mention doing this?
He probably did and I missed it in the thread...
ETA: Saw the you tube video (in the post right above my own, DOH!), nice work crossgun. Did you have the gas port opened at all?
1000s of rounds down the pipe on numerous 5.45x39 uppers with Rock River two-stage triggers and NO issues! It’s the only way I will run with the combloc surplus ammo I have.
Could it be the firing pin?
Here’s an old link showing my testing of the two-stage trigger.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7zEw7Ux_Vw
With or without the HD hammer spring?
I have an RRA two stage in the lower that's mated to my 22 upper...I could do some swapping around...
Without the HD hammer spring. All stock Rock River 2-stage trigger componets.
In the video link I provided above two of the uppers tested are 10.5s. I know of at least one other than runs without any issue as well.
Dont be lazy like me, follow Katars cleaning procedure. I did not at first and have developed a little GI Gold in the kX3. Dont really care as this is a work and school gun.
Globemaster
08-24-09, 17:15
Has anyone chopped one of these barrels to 10.5" or 11.5" and ran them?
yes ... this barrel was cut from 16" to 11.5" and the gas 'port hole' opened up.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/globemaster_oly/Assembly05.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/globemaster_oly/Complete03.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/globemaster_oly/DSCN7351.jpg
decodeddiesel
08-24-09, 17:35
yes ... this barrel was cut from 16" to 11.5" and the gas 'port hole' opened up.
Thanks for the info, PM inbound...
Failure2Stop
08-28-09, 21:12
I just pushed about 180 rounds through mine.
I was a little apprehensive for a couple of reasons-
1- I did not have the high-power hammer spring
2- I had (1) CP 5.45 mag and (3) 5.56 Lancers that did NOT like to hold more than 10 rounds of 5.45.
What I found-
1- The S&W 5.45 will easily hold ~3 MOA @ 100 yards with a 3.5X ACOG and a less than rock-solid rest.
2- Mine worked fine with an RRA hammer spring. I would like to upgrade to a Wolff Extra Power when I can, but since it is a training gun I can deal with less than perfection. I was actually pretty amazed when the gun fired 4 rounds without a stoppage. The 5. Then 6! Then 7! This went on and on, until I began to think that I might not need to upgrade the spring at all, until . . . click. Which leads to. . .
3- I need more 5.45 Mgas. Littlelebowski's Lancers work fine with 25 to 28 rounds- mine won't even fit 15, and will only feed about 10. If the mag is left for more than a few minutes filled the mag swells and seating the mag is a pain. The afore-mentioned click was the result of a visible obstruction/double-feed that was mag-related. The CP Mag worked just fine.
Overall I think that it is a great investment and excellent training tool.
Jay Cunningham
08-28-09, 21:19
Good to hear you picked one up - I just bought another 1080 round tin myself.
If the mag is left for more than a few minutes filled the mag swells and seating the mag is a pain.
Any idea on why this would happen? I thought the 5.45 was slightly thinner than the 5.56, so maybe they're bunching more under the pressure of the mag spring? :confused:
-B
Nope. A 5.45 case is roughly .02" wider than 5.56 at the rim and shoulder. The extra width causes them to sit in 5.56 mags all funny like.
My Lancers are very hit or miss. I have some (2, actually) that won't feed at all. Some (2) feed some of the time. Some feed all the time (4 so far) but bulge causing magwell insertion issues. Most won't hold more than 25 for me, but I tend to stop loading them when it gets hard to do so.
F2S, I look forward to hearing your results and issues if they should arise.
Jay Cunningham
08-29-09, 22:05
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/0826091918-01.jpg
Littlelebowski
08-31-09, 08:12
My Lancer mags have been abused and do swell but I just smack them into that magwell. I've only got about 11 CProducts mags so I've learned to deal with Lancers though I don't leave them loaded anymore; I load them up right before my range trip.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/photo-8.jpg
I just picked up another tin of Russian from AIM - they have a one cent shipping deal, which is pretty good.
When I tried to check out, I didn't get the 1 cent shipping deal. How did you manage it with the ammo purchase?
Jay Cunningham
08-31-09, 15:21
That deal only lasted for about a week.
Katar
How about a day of 5.45x39 training? I can come your way or we can play in my sand box.
Jay Cunningham
08-31-09, 15:48
Katar
How about a day of 5.45x39 training? I can come your way or we can play in my sand box.
Sounds good!
Anyone got a good source for the CP magazines? I've seen them available at a few online vendors that I'm not familiar with. Need to grab a few more for some classwork.
Aimsurplus again has the best price I've seen:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/C_Products_AR15_30rd_5.45x39_mag.html
I'm retarded. I order all my ammo from there anyways. I didn't even think to look... :confused: Thanks!
I'm retarded. I order all my ammo from there anyways. I didn't even think to look... :confused: Thanks!
44mag.com has them for $13.99/mag and free shipping if you order $200. Just a thought, if you want to order a lot.
Anyone got a good source for the CP magazines? I've seen them available at a few online vendors that I'm not familiar with. Need to grab a few more for some classwork.
http://www.cdnninvestments.com/ar530blstnot.html
I understand that the bolt has a 5.45 specific bolt face, but is the extractor the same as for 5.56? Could it be possible that there are minor geometry differences due to the 5.45 case?
I'm trying to bulletproof this thing for a couple back-to-back classes. I've already swapped the bolt into a BCM carrier, replaced gas rings, extractor spring, and insert. I'm wondering if I should replace the extractor while I'm at it. Also, any thoughts on o-ring or no o-ring with the 5.45? I've got about 1000 rounds through this upper with no FTE's.
Also, thanks to everyone who provided magazine sources.
I understand that the bolt has a 5.45 specific bolt face, but is the extractor the same as for 5.56? Could it be possible that there are minor geometry differences due to the 5.45 case?....should replace the extractor while I'm at it?.
I have a KKF 5.45 upper for my 5.45x39 rifle. This is not a S&W upper. I know for sure that the extractor is different in the KKF upper than all my 5.56 extractors.
I tried to swap several other 556 extractors (all Colt) and none of them would work. They all were too tight and would not release the round when performing administrative loading & unloading..
Maybe yours is 556/223 spec?
openbolt
I still have the original S&W extractor installed that came with the 5.45 upper. I read earlier that The_Katar had installed a BCM extractor upgrade kit, so I'm wondering if he just replaced the springs & rings or the extractor too, and with what results?
edit: read closer and it doesn't look like he replaced the extractor.
I still have the original S&W extractor installed that came with the 5.45 upper.
ruf,
Does it look like an ordinary 556/223 extractor?
openbolt
I haven't taken any measurements, but comparing my S&W 5.45 extractor to a normal 5.56 extractor, they look the same. So the bolt and barrel are the only unique parts.
My 5.45 extractor (from S&W) is different then my other 5.56 extractors.
My bolt also came with black insert, super duper spring and O ring installed.
I'll take pictures of the S&W 5.45 extractor and the BCM 5.56 extractor side-by-side when I get home tonight. Given the differences in the cases, I can't imagine that the extractors would be the same, but I'm wrong more often than not.
The BCM extractor spring is significantly stiffer than the one that came on the S&W upper, granted it's new compared to 1000 rds on the old one.
Now I went and did it
My upper is on the way from Copes
Mags on the way from AIM
I got lots of 5.45 formy WASR2
That was too easy....I am so weak:o
So I compared the S&W 5.45 extractor to the BCM 5.56 extractor and found that they are indeed significantly different in order to accommodate the 5.45 case geometry.
In the first picture, you can see that the 5.45 extractor (left) has a wider groove for the rim of the 5.45 case. The 5.45 extractor groove measures 0.0775" (1.97mm) compared to 0.0620" (1.58mm) for the 5.56, or about 0.015" (0.38mm) wider.
In the second picture, you can see that the rear of the 5.45 extractor (left) is thinner to allow more travel for rim the 5.45 case. The rear of the 5.45 extractor measures 0.0820" (2.08mm) compared to 0.1005" (2.55mm) for the 5.56, or about 0.018" (0.46mm) thinner. Based on ballpark geometry, this should allow the 5.45 extractor to travel 0.027" (0.69mm) farther out at the case rim.
You can also see just how much longer the new BCM spring is compared to the S&W spring with 1000rds on it (I swapped the S&W spring into the BCM 5.56 extractor).
Jay Cunningham
09-22-09, 23:40
Decided to swap the H3 buffer for an H2 buffer - was having some inconsistencies locking back with the H3.
A word on accuracy - I recently ran a modified dot torture drill with carbines... from a braced kneeling position (support side) I put 5/5 into a 2" dot at 25 yards. Sighting system was a 4moa Aimpoint.
Yup, these things are plenty accurate! I still have an H3 in mine.
I ran about 3k through it during 2 training classes and only had 1 malfunction - a double feed due to loose feed lips. I have since grounded that magazine.
I'm still tempted to screw with the gas, but I'm beginning to think it's not worth it if the thing runs this good! :)
Anyone on the fence about buying one of these uppers needs to go ahead and grab one if they shoot with any regularity. Yah, maintenance can be a bit of a chore, but it's worth it.
I tried an H3 and it was just too much. No problems with the H2 - seems best fit for mine at least.
Jay Cunningham
10-22-09, 03:46
Shot a sub 2moa group today off the bench at 100 yards in failing light with Russian surplus and a 4MOA Aimpoint! Witness included!
:D
Littlelebowski
10-22-09, 06:45
Pics or it didn't happen :D
Nice shooting, man. I believe I've done the same but then successfully covered it up with a much larger group :D
Gutshot John
10-22-09, 08:43
I can indeed confirm his veracity. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it.
Jay Cunningham
10-23-09, 07:41
I must admit I did not expect results *that good*... but I'm not complaining!
I have actually come to enjoy the heavier trigger on the 5.45mm...
Littlelebowski
10-23-09, 07:56
My trigger is heavier than other weapons I have but crisp. I too prefer it, TK. I see no need for light triggers on fighting carbines or carry guns.
Now go slap an NY1 trigger spring in your G19s :D
Jay Cunningham
10-23-09, 08:01
Now go slap an NY1 trigger spring in your G19s :D
Funny you mention that. One of my Glock 19s has the stock trigger, the other has a NY1/3.5... transitioning from the heavier 5.45 trigger to the NY1 Glock trigger is a bit easier, IMO.
Littlelebowski
10-23-09, 08:51
After about 5 months of the NY1/3.5lb combo, I can't go back :D I was shooting ToddG's P30 wondering "where the heck is the reset on this thing?!" :D
I must admit I did not expect results *that good*... but I'm not complaining!
I have actually come to enjoy the heavier trigger on the 5.45mm...
I have actually gotten 3 minute groups at 600...I wasn't expecting that accuracy either. Though some later groups opened up to 5 MOA... I was using irons.
For a while, I used the stock FCG. Then I switched to an RRA 2 stage for the 600 yard shooting. Then I swapped in the heavy hammer spring on that RRA 2 stage. Now I'm using a standard FCG that I refinished in electroless nickel, with the heavy spring. Because of my prep work, there is much less grit in the trigger than there was before.
Yes, my lower is nasty...
http://www.545ar.com/nickelfcg1.jpg
http://www.545ar.com/nickelfcg2.jpg
http://www.545ar.com/nickelfcg3.jpg
My trigger is heavier than other weapons I have but crisp. I too prefer it, TK. I see no need for light triggers on fighting carbines or carry guns.
Now go slap an NY1 trigger spring in your G19s :D
That was my biggest complaint was how heavy the trigger was on my 5.45 rifle, which is for sale in the EE by the way..... lol
I think if you don't shoot any surplus ammo you should be ok using a regular hammer spring and not the orange one. I never tried it though but read an AAR from some training class were a guy didn't use the orange spring and didn't have any problems.
I ran a H2 buffer with a Wolff extra power spring in mine and didn't have any issues until around the 1800 round mark in a Magpul class I had three failure to extracts but I think I just didn't clean my chamber that good.
I put my 5.45 rifle through some abuse today, wrote about it on my blog.
Video link inside.
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2009/10/24/use-of-the-ar-15-in-dirtydusty-environments/
gruntinhusaybah
10-25-09, 20:11
couple questions that may have been answered, but this thread is 20+ pages now.
What is the orange spring that a few of you are mentioning?
Are you using a standard AR lower reciever
What magazines, and what issues have you seen with them
What's your maint. schedule like, how do you clean it, any special cleaning supplies needed?
thanks guys
Jay Cunningham
10-25-09, 22:56
couple questions that may have been answered, but this thread is 20+ pages now.
What is the orange spring that a few of you are mentioning?
Are you using a standard AR lower reciever
What magazines, and what issues have you seen with them
What's your maint. schedule like, how do you clean it, any special cleaning supplies needed?
thanks guys
I think I'm going to start a new "lessons learned" thread.
The orange spring is included by S&W with the upper. It is a heavier spring to help set off the harder Russian primers more reliably.
Yes, standard AR lower (Sabre Defense in my case).
CProducts, and IMO the springs need upgraded. I use cut-down AK-74 springs. The mags run well with better springs.
I am growing less and less concerned with the cleaning boogeyman. Generally speaking, clean your rifle after you shoot it with normal stuff (Hoppe's, CLP, etc.).
i have been running since smith sent me 1, June of 2008
all his answers are mine except i never played with the springs
i only run c-products 30rder's and a few colt aluminum follower;s in 20 Rd's
my guns work flawlessly except for 1 rd of ftf due to what we all believe is crap ammo. but at $135.00/m no 1 cares.
ran a end of year match at greens-port this last Sunday. ran 200 Rd's with old kac qd-4 can. 100% function.
cleaning
1. gun scrubber
2. baltisol
3 gun scrubber
miltec
hope this helps
Well to date I have 10,500 rounds of surplus ammo through mine.It has Gon through two three day carbine classes and will do another in two weeks. Two mags seem to be packing it in, one malfuction each at the last class. Gas rings will need to be replaced soon.. I have not shot my 6920, N4, or MRP since the 5.45x39 upper came on board. Heck I have even restocked a bit on the ammo. LAst gun show $165 per tin. I may keep picking up ammo when I have time. Does anyone know who has a deal on non corrosive right now?
Matt
I've got about 1200 rds through one of the S&W uppers on an old Colt Sporter lower. Did change out the spring to the red/orange spring Smith supplied with the upper.
Bought three spare C Prod mags to go with the supplied mag. All four have been pretty flawless. I have four modified followers on the way that are supposed to make these guys 100%. Have to see how they work out.
Mine has been SURPRISINGLY accurate. On the order of 2" at 100 yds. For ammo that runs sixteen cents a rd .... I'm impressed.
Not very humid here in Montana but every session I hose it out with hot water and a little dish soap. Run a few patches down the bore, blow it all out with the compressor, then spray down with Ballistol. Zero problems with ANY rust so far. Not even a hint of it. I also occasionally clean the chamberr with a std AR chamber brush on a short Dewey rod. As I'd read instances of steel cases locking into a chamber. I'm probably being overly sensitive though as I've not had any sticking issues.
One of the distributors has a deal of $169 per can SHIPPED. Can't recall who though. If I can find it again I will post the info. Several have it in the $145-$150 range with no shipping. Aim Surplus, Copes, J&G to name a few.
And.....Hornady will soon have enhanced 5.45 ammo available with decent sft point slugs, in steel cases. And I believe they will be non corrosive.
FN in MT
I have ben pushing mine for an article. after this super dave class it should be at the 15-16k mark it had one cleaning after 1k mark... since then lube thats it th eonly sign of issues was at the FSC556 once because i forgot to oil it
and nothing but MILSURP ammo russian and some bulgy...
Jay Cunningham
11-01-09, 07:48
I am convinced that the "corrosive ammo" boogeyman is busted.
I am convinced that the "corrosive ammo" boogeyman is busted.
Surely BUSTED for ME once I discovered BALLISTOL and plugged in my air compressor.:)
Tommorow my upper finally gets it's own ML3 Aimpoint on a La Rue mount. No more stealing from my seldom used SIG556.
FN in MT
30 cal slut
11-02-09, 10:29
I finally got out to the range yesterday to try out my S&W 5.45 x 39 upper.
-I did install the orange colored hammer spring supplied by Smith and Wesson.
-Used three c-products mags.
-I used Russian military ammo.
Shot about 500 rounds in various contorted positions and in a bunch of speed (indexing multiple target) drills.
My verdict:
I LOVE this setup. Maybe it's just me, but I find the 5.45 bullet to be a little more accurate than, say, M855. The Russian military ammo I used (came in a spam can) groups very tightly.
Recoil impulse is similar to 5.56, but that's a very subjective call on my part.
I found it difficult to load the C-Products mags. The length of the bullets has something to do with it ... it seems the SECOND cartridge beneath the one I try to load into the mag seems to stick out in the stack, making loading a new cartridge unpossible.
As the rounds tend to "stick" in the mag, I found this could be resolved with a firm tap to the baseplate to get the spring to work for you.
Above and beyond the initial magazine loading issues, I had two failures to feed in partially loaded magazines out of 500 rounds fired.
I found the ammo to be very dirty, but nothing a little Slip 2000 and a little elbow grease can't get out. I was careful to spray down the entire gun, including the lower receiver. I know the jury is out with the whole corrosive ammo thing, but I also coated the metal parts with Breakfree as well as Weapon Shield.
I'm placing another order for some 5.45 ammo. I'm gonna kill that barrel. :D
30 cal slut
11-02-09, 10:30
BTW, does anyone here actually clean the gas tube as recommended by Smith and Wesson?
I usually don't touch it.
After the VTAC class and 1300 rds of Russian surplus ammo I had to replace the gas tube. I would stick the small red straw that comes on a WD40 can down there and hose it out.
30 cal slut
11-02-09, 19:53
After the VTAC class and 1300 rds of Russian surplus ammo I had to replace the gas tube. I would stick the small red straw that comes on a WD40 can down there and hose it out.
eep. thanks.
Are yall keeping the stock barrel length, or has anyone experimented with cutting the barrel shorter and SBR'ing it?
Are yall keeping the stock barrel length, or has anyone experimented with cutting the barrel shorter and SBR'ing it?
I have a S&W 16" upper that has had the barrel cut down to 12.5" on my SBR.
Where's the best place to pick up a S&W 5.45 upper?
Where's the best place to pick up a S&W 5.45 upper?
I believe AIM Surplus (or Copes Distributing) has them for $600 right now, in stock. Also, check the classifieds. There's a couple on ar15.com right now as well. One has a DD rail I believe..
30 cal slut
11-08-09, 19:59
Where's the best place to pick up a S&W 5.45 upper?
another +1 for AIM Surplus.
I just noticed this here on the m4c equipment exchange:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38831
Just fyi, I shot 7N6 surplus ammo at some MGM rifle targets this weekend. They slightly dimpled the steel at 50 yards, whereas I've had no problems with Action Target.
Be careful what you shoot with 5.45 surplus ammo.
Century Arms has spam cans of 5.45 at $120 right now. They will ship FREE if your order is $500 or more and through an FFL delaer. Stopped at my FFL last week and a couple of us put together an order for more ammo. He obliged and bought some as well.
ELEVEN CENTS a rd. Like stepping back ten years or so.
FN in MT
Century Arms has spam cans of 5.45 at $120 right now. They will ship FREE if your order is $500 or more and through an FFL delaer. Stopped at my FFL last week and a couple of us put together an order for more ammo. He obliged and bought some as well.
ELEVEN CENTS a rd. Like stepping back ten years or so.
FN in MT
Do you have a link for this? On their site, I can only get the ammo at $160 per can (discounted from the $188/can price).
I've never used their site. I'd imagine you need to be on the DEALER page. One needs to have an FFL on file to get the deal.
We called it in last week.... didn't use the webpage.
COPES DISTRIBUTING has dropped their prices too....another option if your closer to Copes.
FN in MT
Do you have a link for this? On their site, I can only get the ammo at $160 per can (discounted from the $188/can price).
Same with me.
Same with me.
If you have an FFL call, apparently that is the price you can get :)
I wonder if C&R FFL works, because if that does........SWEET.
I'm 99% sure a C&R works with Century.
FN in MT
I'm 99% sure a C&R works with Century.
FN in MT
If this is the case it is the best place to by ammo no doubt.
Does anyone make a good 5.45x39 barrel for those of use who'd rather roll their own or have an MGI upper?
Does anyone make a good 5.45x39 barrel for those of use who'd rather roll their own or have an MGI upper?
There's only two that I know of. One is Model 1 Sales and the other I can't recall (although I believe it is linked in this thread somewhere). The other option is to use an AK-74 barrel of sorts and have it smithed over to the AR.
I suppose you could take a S&W upper apart.
Spikes Tactical is working on uppers. Here is a link to their thread over on arfcom:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=121&t=460699
If this is the case it is the best place to by ammo no doubt.
For anyone interested, I did call Century this morning and they confirmed what FN in MT has stated. They are selling 5.45x39 ammo for $120 per 1080 round spam can. Shipping is $12.95 for orders under $500, and free if it is over $500.
The promotion is finished at the end of the month.
Keep in mind this deal is only offered to FFL holders, and I do believe they honor Type 03 FFLs (C&R).
I don't know the group buy requirements on this site, but I am thinking about organizing a small group purchase for anyone interested in the northern VA area. Free shipping if we can get 5 spam cans ordered... and I know I'm in for at least 2-3.
I took my new 5.45 M&P gun out today and it was a hoot to shoot. It was very accurate with iron sights. I am really happy with this purchase. I look forward creating a SBR out of it.
One thing I would like to see is someone come out with a 18" rifle length gas system chambered in 5.45 x 39. Now that would be sweet.
Took my 16" S&W upper out as my ML3 AimPoint on a LRT mount came in last week. At 50 yds I shot 1/2" 3 shot groups getting it zeroed in.
With failing light I shot two 5 shot groups at 100 yds both went right at 1.5".
I've got steel plates at 100, 200 and 300 yds. And a life sized prairie dog at 150 yds. I have been beating the crap out of them with the 5.45 the past several weeks. I knew the 5.45 was accurate as I can hit the longer plates as easily with the S&W as I can with my LWRC 5.56mm.
My AimPoint is a 2 moa dot....I still need to figure out a target that allows me to shoot my best groups. I'm used to standard crosshairs on a normal rifle scope. the DOT is a new wrinkle for me. My 60 yr old eyes were having a heck of a time yesterday trying to shoot my best groups on a round, black bullseye target.
I may try a "V" or a lighter colored bullseye. I know I wasn't holding as accurately as I can with some magnification and crosshairs.
My Bulgarian sidefolder AK74 came in today...yet another 5.45 to feed. Glad the ammo is down to $120. Couple of us made a nice order to Century through a Dealer buddy of ours. Should arrive later this week...... gotta get out my can opener.
FN in MT
If this is the case it is the best place to by ammo no doubt.
That is how I get my "dealer price" through Century. Ordered some of the 5.45 end of Oct for some guys @ $140/tin only to see it drop $20/tin for Nov.
For their sake I should have procrastinated. :(
J&G has tins of 5.45x39 for 129.99 now. I would love to see this fall below 100 bucks per 1000.
J&G has tins of 5.45x39 for 129.99 now. I would love to see this fall below 100 bucks per 1000.
The only thing about J&G is their shipping kills me.
aimsurplus has uppers and ammo at great prices right now!
Sorry I had a brain cramp. I meant aim has cans for 129.99.
Sorry I had a brain cramp. I meant aim has cans for 129.99.
I checked them out too. It seems that shipping is going to run me just under $27.
If anyone in the northern VA area is interested in some of the 5.45 stuff, I think I'm going to go ahead and place an order with Century to get in on the free shipping. If you want we could split some of it. Let me know.
I ordered some ammo from century yesterday and my card was charged today. I am interested to see how long it takes for it to arrive. Their ammo comes out of a warehouse in Vermont is what the sales rep told me.
Finally got out with my new upper
Ran 6 mags thru while sighting in my aimpoint and only had 6 light strikes and accuracy was on par with 5.56
I will probably wait to install the heavy spring when I finish my dedicated lower
Obiwan,
You hit on the only wrinkle I've had with my 5.45 venture .....light strikes resulting in FTF's. Installing the supplied red spring took care of the light strikes but probably DOUBLED the trigger pull.
The lower I'm using is a much used 20 year old Colt so the spring could be on the worn/light side.
Any ideas on a spring that will crack those Russian primers but NOT have a ten pound pull??
FN in MT
The Wolff Extra Power springs aren't too bad.
Obiwan,
You hit on the only wrinkle I've had with my 5.45 venture .....light strikes resulting in FTF's. Installing the supplied red spring took care of the light strikes but probably DOUBLED the trigger pull.
The lower I'm using is a much used 20 year old Colt so the spring could be on the worn/light side.
Any ideas on a spring that will crack those Russian primers but NOT have a ten pound pull??
FN in MT
I'm using the factory-supplied S&W spring with a RRA 2-stage. I like the trigger pull on this and I've never had any FTFs or light strikes with this setup.
Bill Springfield http://www.triggerwork.net could probably lighten it up for you. I have a trigger going to him now with the red/orange spring.
I'm using the factory-supplied S&W spring with a RRA 2-stage. I like the trigger pull on this and I've never had any FTFs or light strikes with this setup.
Bill Springfield http://www.triggerwork.net could probably lighten it up for you. I have a trigger going to him now with the red/orange spring.
Let us know how this turns out.
I have an extra power spring from Brownells and a 2-stage LMT. It gives a very good trigger and very solid primer strikes. I have been very pleased with the accuracy of the S&W with the Rusky surplus.
I'm using the factory-supplied S&W spring with a RRA 2-stage. I like the trigger pull on this and I've never had any FTFs or light strikes with this setup.
Bill Springfield http://www.triggerwork.net could probably lighten it up for you. I have a trigger going to him now with the red/orange spring.
I'll look into Bills site. Thanks..appreciate it. I'm going to buy a dedicated lower for that 5.45 S&W upper ASAP so I'll do a better trigger at the same time.
FN in MT
Littlelebowski
11-21-09, 18:26
Any ideas on a spring that will crack those Russian primers but NOT have a ten pound pull??
FN in MT
How light of a pull do you need on a carbine?
I'll look into Bills site. Thanks..appreciate it. I'm going to buy a dedicated lower for that 5.45 S&W upper ASAP so I'll do a better trigger at the same time.
FN in MT
It will probably double the cost of your lower build, but the Geissele High Speed DMR trigger has been 100% for me with the russian surplus.
3 pound trigger pull the way i have my DMR adjusted. The SSA is $100 less than the adjustable and still uses a full power spring (i believe) with a nominal 4ish pound trigger.
Its the cadillac of triggers and my DMR runs the surplus just fine.
Geissele High Speed $279 (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=455)
Geissele Combat SSA $170 (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1234)
Let us know how this turns out.
Bubba,
I got the trigger back from Bill earlier this week. It turned out great! No creep and a crisp break. I got the 4# trigger and it feels heavier than 4#.. but I am using the extra power spring so that would probably have something to do with it. I highly recommend his work for the $35 I spent.
Where is the cheapest place to pick up some C product mags? Palmetto doesnt have them on sale anymore.
Where is the cheapest place to pick up some C product mags? Palmetto doesnt have them on sale anymore.
It seems that 44mag.com still has them at $13.99/mag + free shipping on orders over $200.
NCPatrolAR
12-01-09, 22:13
I had to remove the factory supplied spring out of my lower due to it causing the gun to double. I went to a standard hammer spring and the issue went away. I'm currently running 60gr Wolf ammo with no issue, but dont how moving to the 53gr ammo will effect things.
NCPatrolAR
12-05-09, 04:15
Update 5 Dec
Put a RRA 2 stage trigger in my 5.45, but replaced the hammer spring with the extra power spring. So far, no doubling and I should be good to go with 53gr ammo. I'm going to take it out for a test run this sunday
Robb Jensen
12-05-09, 08:32
FWIW this week I 'shaved' MTR7s FSB to fit under a 11" Troy/VTAC FF tube. I refinished the now low-pro gas block with Norrells moly resin. The gas to had a fair amount of wear on it's top so I replaced the gas tube while it was apart. The gas port showed no signs of enlarging it's still .073" and he's been running a CAR 3.0oz buffer with a standard buffer spring. IIRC he has over 10K of corrosive through this barrel. I cleaned the crown well, installed a cleaner A2 flash hider I had with some peel washers. He says it's still shooting within the error of the dot of his Aimpoint so I doubt that there's much throat erosion. I need to buy a bore scope.
I think I may pick up one or two of these uppers myself.
FWIW this week I 'shaved' MTR7s FSB to fit under a 11" Troy/VTAC FF tube. I refinished the now low-pro gas block with Norrells moly resin. The gas to had a fair amount of wear on it's top so I replaced the gas tube while it was apart. The gas port showed no signs of enlarging it's still .073" and he's been running a CAR 3.0oz buffer with a standard buffer spring. IIRC he has over 10K of corrosive through this barrel. I cleaned the crown well, installed a cleaner A2 flash hider I had with some peel washers. He says it's still shooting within the error of the dot of his Aimpoint so I doubt that there's much throat erosion. I need to buy a bore scope.
I think I may pick up one or two of these uppers myself.
Do you have any pictures?
Is anyone out there using a standard hammer spring with the mil surp ammo?
Littlelebowski
12-05-09, 14:35
I had to remove the factory supplied spring out of my lower due to it causing the gun to double. I went to a standard hammer spring and the issue went away. I'm currently running 60gr Wolf ammo with no issue, but dont how moving to the 53gr ammo will effect things.
Wow. Didn't see that coming. I have an H buffer in my gun as the only mod and unlike everybody else's, it just keeps running and running. No problems with mags or anything like that.
It will probably double the cost of your lower build, but the Geissele High Speed DMR trigger has been 100% for me with the russian surplus.
3 pound trigger pull the way i have my DMR adjusted. The SSA is $100 less than the adjustable and still uses a full power spring (i believe) with a nominal 4ish pound trigger.
Its the cadillac of triggers and my DMR runs the surplus just fine.
Geissele High Speed $279 (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=455)
Geissele Combat SSA $170 (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1234)
Even MORE options!! Been away for a few weeks, so haven't done much with the lower issue. Going to the sHOT Show in January and can take a look at all sorts of options THERE. May hold off until then to get something done.
And currently snowing and blowing here which puts a build on the back burner even more.:D
FN in MT
NCPatrolAR
12-05-09, 15:48
Wow. Didn't see that coming. I have an H buffer in my gun as the only mod and unlike everybody else's, it just keeps running and running. No problems with mags or anything like that.
Getting this to run reliably has been a chore. Its been back to Smith twice and I've been working on what I can. I think the bugs might be worked out of it....finaly.
I believe my next rifle will be a 5.45 x 39. I'm just not sure which route I'll take.
30 cal slut
12-13-09, 19:41
does anyone besides me feel like they are being "spoiled" by the 5.45 x 39?
the obvious cost differential between surplus 5.45 x 39 vs. 5.56 NATO is a given. having said that, more rounds per buck spent = more guilt free rounds sent downrange :D = more training.
what i am definitely feeling, having gone through a few 1,080 round spam cans of (really really derdy feelthy ammo) ...
the 5.45 x 39 out of the S&W upper is a freaking tack-driver.
i can't quite put my finger on it, but, just in terms of hitting targets, this combination seems to outperform milspec 5.56 (lake city) at half the cost.
i blew through about 800 rounds today :D, about 2/3 of which was shot with my weak (left) side. there is something addicting about hearing that satisfying clank on steel.
i was able to overlook some of the suck associated with the c-products mags.
if you have a mag that works reasonably well, lubricating the follower does seem to help. in a good mag, 28 rounds is no problem.
the lips do seem to be spreading on these mags sooner than i would have expected.
wish magpul would crank some out for us!
I love my 5.45 upper. So much so that I sometimes regret having a 556 one. I wish magpul would make some pmags in 5.45, however I have been lucky so far and have not had any issues with my c product mags.
I've got four of the C-Products mags with updated followers and they have performed about 99.9% So no issues there. But +1 on some P-Mags!!!
With the ammo down to $107 a can from Century I grabbed a few more cans the other day putting me at about 12K on hand. That sale ends 12/31 so I may make one more purchase before it ends.
I agree that the 5.45 is just simply a surprising cartridge. I can bang my 200 yd plate about as well with the 5.45 as I can with any of my other AR's. And for a mere 10 cents a shot too!
FN in MT
I love my 5.45x39. I did email magpul the other week on the off chance that they might give me a glimmer of hope on 5.45 pmags... we can but hope!!
I went and shot my 545 upper for the second time with a H buffer. Nearly every mag I shot the bolt failed to lock back. I would assume this is because of the H buffer in the gun. What are yalls thoughts.
Also a new C product mag (second time to range) the welds broke....so it was a crappy trip.
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