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View Full Version : I am taking the 5.45x39mm plunge! updated 09-23-09



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Jay Cunningham
08-15-08, 09:41
I went ahead and ordered a S&W 5.45mm upper from Talon Arms.

http://www.talonarms.com/talonarms/images/large/products/812005_large_LRG.jpg


Comes with one 30 Round Magazine and Bolt Carrier Assembly

SKU: 812005
Model: M&P15
Caliber: 5.45 x 39mm
Action: Semi-Auto
Barrel Length: 16"
Barrel Twist: 1 in 8"
Front Sight: M4 Post
Barrel Material: 4140 Steel
Receiver Material: 7075 T6 Aluminum
Finish: Hard Coat Black Anodized
Chromed Comp: Barrel Bore, Gas Key Bolt Carrier, Chamber

I have a lower that I can beat on that will go perfect with this upper. I figure I will shoot this gun for practice. After I run a 1080 round tin of corrosive through it I'll evaluate. If it runs well I'll consider making it a training gun. If it chokes a bit (which is what I fully expect) then I will probably just keep it a practice gun. Actually I have no problem at all with a practice gun that chokes a bit - I can work on malf clearance. I just won't bring it to a class.

I ordered a few extra mags from CProducts and I plan on distinctly marking them.

I'll update as I can to show my results.

Paulinski
08-15-08, 10:11
Interesting.

Please update once you receive it and have some range time.

crossgun
08-15-08, 10:23
Thekatar

Just a little FYI. I bought two complete MP15s in 5.45x39 just before our class. Neither one of the rifles ran with the shitty C Products mags that were supplied. The rounds would crash into the feed ramps just below the cuts and just sit there. As you can imagine I was a little pissed. HK and standard issue GI mag with green follower (5.56) ran with out issue. I was running Wolff ammo.

Before I hang all the bells and whistles on it I need to get it worked out. Talked to S&W customer service and the guy I spoke to was not even aware they made a 5.45 or that it had a different mag. I told him I would send him a video so he could better understand the issue and pass it along to the so called "rifle guys". I also plan on sending it to Ernie because I know he gives a shit. Custer service is sending me a call tag so they can send me another shitty mag instead of addressing the problem.

I believe Smith and Wesson is going to get a black eye on this because they trust the function of their weapon to an inferior supplier. I own over 50 C Products mags that I’m trying to sale because they just don’t work reliably.

Just be aware of the C Products mag. I have had nothing but problems with their 9mm mags as well.

Congrats on the new rifle and watch the mags. I will keep you posted and let you know how it works out.

copperfield

markm
08-15-08, 10:32
CProd seems to be the Olympic Arms of Mag production.

I can remember that nut at Cprod getting pissy with me on TOS when I pointed out their QC issues to shooters who asked about them.

Jay Cunningham
08-15-08, 10:32
Neither one of the rifles ran with the shitty C Products mags that were supplied. The rounds would crash into the feed ramps just below the cuts and just sit there. As you can imagine I was a little pissed. HK and standard issue GI mag with green follower (5.56) ran with out issue. I was running Wolff ammo.

Very interesting - thanks for the heads up!

As I said I fully expect there to be snags in this but I hope it runs at least *most* of the time...

rob_s
08-15-08, 11:14
CP's involvement here is one of the reasons I've stayed away from these uppers.

I already have one project (9mm AR) that I was relying on CP magazines for which is now teetering on the brink because of them.

Jay Cunningham
08-15-08, 11:35
CP's involvement here is one of the reasons I've stayed away from these uppers.

I already have one project (9mm AR) that I was relying on CP magazines for which is now teetering on the brink because of them.

Agree to an extent but if what Copperfield says holds true then I can just return the 5.45mm mags and designate some USGI aluminums for 5.45. We shall see... as I said I'll report my results. If the CProducts don't work I will make it known.

Solid
08-15-08, 12:52
Just remember you have to clean the barrel with something water based. Otherwise that corrosive crap will sit and eat the barrel.

Jay Cunningham
08-15-08, 13:03
Just remember you have to clean the barrel with something water based. Otherwise that corrosive crap will sit and eat the barrel.

I am a big believer in the boiling water flush, with the WD-40 purge.

Failure2Stop
08-15-08, 14:26
I really want one of these to work out. It seems to be superb way to approach high-volume training on an AR platform.

Can anyone comment on the differrence in recoil impulse between a 5.45 and 5.56 in an AR upper? I have shot plenty of 5.45, but all in other platforms. Just wondering if there is any appreciable difference.

Magic Sauce
08-15-08, 15:50
I hope everything goes well, because this looks very interesting.

subzero
08-15-08, 17:35
I held my breath for a while waiting for this to come out and finally bit the bullet and decided to get a 5.45 AK for my training gun. It's not that I don't trust CProducts, they just took too damn long to come out. That tells me something here is all ate up. Since barrels, bolts and uppers aren't that hard to figure out, it's got to be the magazine.

I don't buy the "stick 5.45 in a regular mag and it's fine" line either. Crossgun, you may have gotten it to work for you, but every 5.56 mag (GI alum w/ green follower, Brit SA80 with black follower, SA80 with Magpul follower, PMag) I've loaded with 5.45 leads me to believe I'd have a lot of practice clearing malfs because of the way the rounds nosedive in the mag.

Good luck, Jay. I think you'll need it.

austinN4
08-15-08, 18:37
Neither one of the rifles ran with the shitty C Products mags that were supplied. The rounds would crash into the feed ramps just below the cuts and just sit there. As you can imagine I was a little pissed. HK and standard issue GI mag with green follower (5.56) ran with out issue.
Were these Cproducts mags the ones with the Gen 3 MagPul followers?
This thread is of great interest to me as I was also considering a M&P15R.

Jay Cunningham
08-15-08, 18:53
Good luck, Jay. I think you'll need it.

I suspect that you're right, but even if it only runs 75% of the time I'll be okay with it. If it's worse than that it may just not be worth it.

Oh yeah, I think I have a 5.45mm AK stashed somewhere.

:cool:

Jay Cunningham
08-15-08, 20:16
I found a review over on BARF:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=388099

Now this was a complete rifle and not just an upper, but this guy says his runs 100% and that the included mag was in fact a CP.

We shall see...

m4fun
08-15-08, 21:48
I am very interested in this thread. I ended up getting a .21 Ghengis as the call it from Alexander Arms when they were making them. Put the project to the side for a while as I was just wanting to play with this on a MGI lower with interchangable mag wells just to use AK-74 mags. Hence never made progess here.

A tried loading some HK mags and really was disappointed that I could not squeeze more 5.45 in them than I did - I guess the thinkness of the steel mags is just enough more than the aluminum mags.

Please keep us posted!

skyugo
08-16-08, 02:45
I held my breath for a while waiting for this to come out and finally bit the bullet and decided to get a 5.45 AK for my training gun. It's not that I don't trust CProducts, they just took too damn long to come out. That tells me something here is all ate up. Since barrels, bolts and uppers aren't that hard to figure out, it's got to be the magazine.

I don't buy the "stick 5.45 in a regular mag and it's fine" line either. Crossgun, you may have gotten it to work for you, but every 5.56 mag (GI alum w/ green follower, Brit SA80 with black follower, SA80 with Magpul follower, PMag) I've loaded with 5.45 leads me to believe I'd have a lot of practice clearing malfs because of the way the rounds nosedive in the mag.

Good luck, Jay. I think you'll need it.

yeah there's a lot more taper to the 5.45 cases than 5.56. i could definitely see a problem running them in a standard straight box magazine.

austinN4
08-16-08, 06:25
Neither one of the rifles ran with the shitty C Products mags that were supplied.
Please clarify for me on the feed and mag issues you are having. Is the supplied Cproducts mag supposed to be special in some way to the 5.45x39 or is it a regular Cproducts 5.56 mag? If I read your post correctly, the 5.45 ran just fine with regular USGI green follower 5.56 mags, no?

crossgun
08-16-08, 06:58
Guys the included mag is a special mag for 5.45 with a new follower. It is not the standard 5.56 follower. I will try to post a few pics and video after some more range time tomorrow.

austinN4
08-16-08, 07:27
Guys the included mag is a special mag for 5.45 with a new follower. It is not the standard 5.56 follower.
If the problem is just the one CP mag that ships with the 15R, and it runs fine with USGI green follower 5.56 mags, why not just us those?

M4arc
08-16-08, 07:50
I'm very interested to hear your impressions because I would love one of those uppers. As you know TheKatar, I love the 5.45x39 round more than the 5.56x39.

NCPatrolAR
08-16-08, 22:10
Interesting that this should come up. I'm debating between one of the 5.45 uppers or a 7.62x39 one.

N4LtRecce
08-16-08, 23:13
Interesting that this should come up. I'm debating between one of the 5.45 uppers or a 7.62x39 one.


I don't think the magazines work too well in the 7.62 models... Otherwise, I'd have one.

NCPatrolAR
08-18-08, 09:49
I now have a 5.45 upper en route :)

Jay Cunningham
08-18-08, 09:57
I now have a 5.45 upper en route :)

Cool beans - we can compare our results.

M1A2_Tanker
08-18-08, 17:47
Who has these uppers? I can only find the whole rifle. Please, Thank you!:D ..

miamitj
08-18-08, 22:40
Can we get an update? Im REALLY looking into a 5.45 upper as well ...

M1A2_Tanker
08-20-08, 17:17
Can we get an update? Im REALLY looking into a 5.45 upper as well ...

What he said!:D

Jay Cunningham
08-20-08, 18:32
I need to actually get mine first, guys!!

:p

miamitj
08-20-08, 18:56
I need to actually get mine first, guys!!

:p

Well what are you waiting for ??? :cool:

M1A2_Tanker
08-20-08, 19:56
I need to actually get mine first, guys!!

:p

Well hurry up geeze! our money is counting on you!:D

NCPatrolAR
08-21-08, 00:09
Got my upper tonight. :)

For those getting just the S&W, no magazines come with it. However, there is an orange "extra power" spring that is floating around in the box. Keep an eye out for it.

For those wanting to know, it comes with an F marked FSB.


Now once my mags and ammo get in; I'll be putting some rounds down range.

M1A2_Tanker
08-21-08, 00:35
Got my upper tonight. :)

For those getting just the S&W, no magazines come with it. However, there is an orange "extra power" spring that is floating around in the box. Keep an eye out for it.

For those wanting to know, it comes with an F marked FSB.


Now once my mags and ammo get in; I'll be putting some rounds down range.

Do you mean just the upper? If so can you point me where to find one online? Thanks

Jay Cunningham
08-21-08, 00:44
As a teaser, I got my magazines from CProducts. Quite obviously no anti-tilt follower design and the rounds seemed to load erratically - not very confidence inspiring.

NCPatrolAR
08-21-08, 01:15
Do you mean just the upper? If so can you point me where to find one online? Thanks


Correct; no mag comes with the upper. A single mag should come if you buy a complete gun.

I ordered my upper from Cope's Distributing; but got one of the last ones they had. Pretty sure the are out right now. You might want to keep an eye out at Budsgunshop.com for complete guns.

NCPatrolAR
08-21-08, 01:15
As a teaser, I got my magazines from CProducts. Quite obviously no anti-tilt follower design and the rounds seemed to load erratically - not very confidence inspiring.

How long did it take for you to get your mags? I ordered 5 on Tuesday.

decodeddiesel
08-21-08, 10:28
Thekatar, are you worried about being able to clean the corrosive salts out of the gas tube? And similarly, do you think there would be merit in installing a short stroke gas piston (perhaps PWS)? I believe this facilitate easier cleaning of the gas system as well as prevent more un-burned solids and gas from being piped back into the receiver. True the receiver would be much easier to clean as opposed to the DI gas system, but minimizing contamination should probably be the key theme here. Interesting project regardless, I agree that the mag issue could be a show stopper here. :(

Jay Cunningham
08-21-08, 11:31
How long did it take for you to get your mags? I ordered 5 on Tuesday.

They came really fast.

Jay Cunningham
08-21-08, 11:33
Thekatar, are you worried about being able to clean the corrosive salts out of the gas tube? And similarly, do you think there would be merit in installing a short stroke gas piston (perhaps PWS)? I believe this facilitate easier cleaning of the gas system as well as prevent more un-burned solids and gas from being piped back into the receiver. True the receiver would be much easier to clean as opposed to the DI gas system, but minimizing contamination should probably be the key theme here. Interesting project regardless, I agree that the mag issue could be a show stopper here. :(

Frankly I am not worried about it at all. Let me ask you - what metal is the gas tube made from? Is this metal known to easily corrode?

Just hit the parts with boiling water and some WD-40, then lube as usual.

Unless I am missing something, militaries around the world used corrosive ammunition for a very long time in firearms that were much more susceptible to corrosion than modern AR's and they all did okay...

Sometimes I think people worry too much.

decodeddiesel
08-21-08, 14:17
Frankly I am not worried about it at all. Let me ask you - what metal is the gas tube made from? Is this metal known to easily corrode?

Just hit the parts with boiling water and some WD-40, then lube as usual.

Unless I am missing something, militaries around the world used corrosive ammunition for a very long time in firearms that were much more susceptible to corrosion than modern AR's and they all did okay...

Sometimes I think people worry too much.

I believe the gas tube is stainless, not too sure which alloy, but you're right it is designed to be corrosion resistant. I think your boiling water + water displacement formula treatment should suffice. I used to use hot water + compressed air to clean the "moon dust" from my M4 while in Iraq.

As far as foreign military use, that is very true. I am sure they're not many (if any) AK-74s that are dead lined strictly from corrosive ammo use, and they are far more susceptible to corrosion than an AR.

Jay Cunningham
08-21-08, 16:48
http://www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=216&t=162783

Heavy Metal
08-21-08, 17:04
Frankly I am not worried about it at all. Let me ask you - what metal is the gas tube made from? Is this metal known to easily corrode?

Just hit the parts with boiling water and some WD-40, then lube as usual.

Unless I am missing something, militaries around the world used corrosive ammunition for a very long time in firearms that were much more susceptible to corrosion than modern AR's and they all did okay...

Sometimes I think people worry too much.

Dude, try some Ballistol. This is an application that is BEGGING for it!

decodeddiesel
08-21-08, 17:34
http://www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=216&t=162783

Encouraging. Too bad there isn't a 5.45 Pmag for the AR :p

Jay Cunningham
08-21-08, 17:56
Dude, try some Ballistol. This is an application that is BEGGING for it!

I have heard that before but honestly I don't think Ballistol will really do anything to the corrosive salts that a flush with hot water won't. I know some guys come up with their own special blend of water/Ballistol but I think they are just performing mental masturbation. It couldn't hurt, I suppose, but I would only still use the Ballistol after I flushed with hot water and purged with WD-40. Even then, there's no need to put a lubricant/rust preventative on a stainless steel tube that gets super hot, nor do I think Ballistol would hold up real well on a hot bolt. I'll stick with a WeaponShield lube afterwards.

At least this is what I plan on doing - we shall find out soon if it is adequate.

Heavy Metal
08-21-08, 21:06
Ballistol has properties where it binds with any trace residual salts and neutralizes them. It is a more forgiving product. It is also cheap when mixed with water.

Heavy Metal
08-21-08, 21:08
I also use weponshield as my primary lube. I have had no cause to use ballistol on an AR but have used it many times on an AK that has fired corrosive.

I also use it to clean my truck gun, an M-44 carbine. I clean it on the spot for about 15 minutes and put it back in the truck. No rust ever.

Ron3
08-22-08, 16:09
I just ordered a few mags about three days ago. Hope I get the "newer design" ones.

I haven't fired my rifle yet.

I plan on spraying out the breach, barrel, and gas tube with hot soapy water before cleaning.

That should do it.

Ron3

Jay Cunningham
08-27-08, 10:23
Ok, I received my upper today.

Observations upon initial inspection:

M4 cuts highly polished and very distinct - not anodized with the rest of the receiver

Bolt carrier is properly staked

hammer spring "upgrade" included (I guess for harder Berdan primers?)


So far so good. I hand cycled several dozen rounds through my CP mags and there were no hang ups on the feed ramps which is a good sign. I hope to get this to the range tomorrow to test fire. I will try it without the hammer upgrade first because I have doubts about the necessity.

Pics and updates and I can provide them...

Littlelebowski
08-27-08, 16:40
If I bought the full 5.45 S&W, would the lower work as a general purpose/5.56 AR lower or is it made especially for the 5.45?

Jay Cunningham
08-27-08, 16:41
Apparently the only difference is the hammer spring.

I think.

mos2111
08-28-08, 11:26
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=121&t=380028
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=14808

My review of my custom 5.45 upper. I got more traffic over there, so my updates get posted there. My issues were with the hammer spring and were resolved by changing them out. I am 3/4 of the way through a case of 5.45 and just got a second case to burn through.
I have pictures of the 5.45 mags and currently have my 4 loaded for an extended time for my range trip Monday. These mags work. I have been trying to run the gun hard and hot, as I want it to be mt class gun.

mos2111
08-28-08, 11:28
Apparently the only difference is the hammer spring.

I think.

As far as I know, the only difference is the hammer spring. (If you bought the complete rife, the RE is milspec from what has been said)

Jay Cunningham
08-28-08, 18:32
I ran four magazines (112 rounds) through the gun today. I had 15 rounds not fire due to the hit on the primer not being hard enough. Remember I did not install the supplied hammer spring because I wanted to try the standard spring first. I *think* I may have had one malf during rapid fire which was from a round taking a nosedive but I am not 100% certain of this.

I am going to install the new hammer spring and try again. If this mod indeed sets those pesky hard primers off I think this is going to work out well. All the rounds fed and all magazines locked back the bolt on the last round. All magazines dropped free. Accuracy was just fine and windage was dead-on out of the box, elevation will only need to be slightly tweaked.

note: the extractor has a black insert and an O-ring

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/pics030.jpg

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/pics033.jpg

Littlelebowski
08-28-08, 19:04
What's that on the mag well?

M4arc
08-28-08, 19:47
What's that on the mag well?

Redi-Mag

NCPatrolAR
08-28-08, 22:15
I'm headed out to the range with mine on Sunday

mndfusion
08-29-08, 00:53
Frankly I am not worried about it at all. Let me ask you - what metal is the gas tube made from? Is this metal known to easily corrode?

Just hit the parts with boiling water and some WD-40, then lube as usual.

Unless I am missing something, militaries around the world used corrosive ammunition for a very long time in firearms that were much more susceptible to corrosion than modern AR's and they all did okay...

Sometimes I think people worry too much.

My gunsmith friend says to mix up in a bucket hot water, soap, and Ammonia. He says Ammonia dissolves all the harmful salts. He also mentions that most commercial clp's that cost 100x as much as this gunsmith recipe contain Ammonia for that reason.

So yea, I clan my AK's like this after corrosive ammo then bust out the hairdryer, if I don't have an A/c condenser handy to just lay the parts on top of --after dryed, I oil up and store away...no problems ever with corrosive ammo here -- doesn't turn me off at all. I got 2 cases of the Bulgarian WASP from AIM not to long ago, its great stuff!

Littlelebowski
08-29-08, 07:42
Damnit. You guys are killing me here. Should I just buy a 5.45 AR and 5 cases of ammo and pray there's no ammo embargo? I can use my AR mags, right?

mos2111
08-29-08, 16:17
not really, if you want reliable feeding, you need the 5.45 mags. Forget 5 tins, buy 5 crates and see what the ammo market is doing when you eat through 11k rounds. At 115 a tin, you cant go wrong. If you get an ar 47 lower you can use 74 mags.

jjw
08-31-08, 18:46
Damnit. You guys are killing me here. Should I just buy a 5.45 AR and 5 cases of ammo and pray there's no ammo embargo? I can use my AR mags, right?

yes you can but the mags are finicky, i am using h&k AR mags and the rifle is working fine. i have been shooting 1 for sometime as a beta site for smith. i have the full weapon.

f.y.i. also to someone above --- the lower works just fine with a .223 upper and a 10.5 h&k 416 i use, on a dailey basis

you can use standard mags but the follower is different.
have not shot the gun much bit due to back surgery the gun sat in my office for 2 months after they shipped.

ken hackathorn and i and Lynn freshly shot approx 4O0 rds 3 weeks ago or so. we were well pleased

ask i am around

NCPatrolAR
09-01-08, 01:22
Discovered the barrel nut is loose on my receiver. Tried to zero it today and was wondering why I was having problems with impact shifts. Guess I'll correct that this week and take another stab at getting a solid zero on it.

Primer strikes were good on all the rounds fired. Did have 2 "bad" rounds out of approximately 200 fired.

Armati
09-01-08, 07:26
My gunsmith friend says to mix up in a bucket hot water, soap, and Ammonia. He says Ammonia dissolves all the harmful salts. He also mentions that most commercial clp's that cost 100x as much as this gunsmith recipe contain Ammonia for that reason.



Yep, this is 100% true and effective. With one caveat...

Ammonia corrodes aluminum like nothing else will. There are several Technical Bulletins about not using ammonia based compounds (like Simple Green) to clean ARs.

For this application, your best bet is use hot soapy water. Use compressed air to drive off the water. Then, spray it down with WD40 to further displace any water and corrosive salts.

miamitj
09-01-08, 08:02
I use a mix of 10% BALLISTOL SPORTSMAN'S OIL and 90% water and spray it down very well everywhere washing it off. Its cheap as hell and works great!

After the spray down I clean as normal ...

A 16oz liquid bottle is less then $10 and makes over 160oz of cleaner. Its also great for wood and cleaning in general ...

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=22502&title=SPORTSMAN'S%20OIL

Littlelebowski
09-01-08, 11:28
I assume all rails for the AR 5.56 will fit this?

NCPatrolAR
09-01-08, 12:13
I assume all rails for the AR 5.56 will fit this?

Yep. My Surefire M500 and MI rails both fit with no problems

Littlelebowski
09-01-08, 16:24
Just bought one off of Gunbroker. Where's the cheapest place for shipped ammo? What weight of bullet should I buy?

senorlinc
09-01-08, 18:07
Where's the cheapest place for shipped ammo?

http://gun-deals.com/ammo.php?caliber=5.45x39

Jay Cunningham
09-01-08, 19:02
I buy mine from AIM.

N4LtRecce
09-01-08, 19:28
Wish I could buy from AIM, but I'm not 21... :mad:

I was ready to buy 3 cases of the 1080 count 5.45 ammo. Suppose I'll spend my money elsewhere.

C4IGrant
09-09-08, 12:36
A local customer brought his S&W 545 AR into the shop the other day. This is the first time I have actually gotten to handle one. His AR was NOT reliable so we did some work on it and seem to have fixed the issues with it.

Some thoughts on how to make them more reliable:

1. The upper receiver HAS to have a true M4 feed ramps!
2. The mags are crap and most likely could do better with some stiffer springs.
3. The weapon is WAY over gassed IMHO so add an H3 buffer and maybe a CS buffer spring.

We have several of these uppers on order and our M4C member price on them will be $600 if anyone is interested.


C4

Littlelebowski
09-09-08, 12:40
Is that fixable with the feed ramps? I bought an "H" buffer from you Grant, how do I check and see if that's the right one? What mag springs would you recommend?

chadbag
09-09-08, 12:45
For this application, your best bet is use hot soapy water. Use compressed air to drive off the water. Then, spray it down with WD40 to further displace any water and corrosive salts.

For those who have to have a pay-for gun cleaner to do this, the M-Pro 7 Gun Cleaner works well with corrosive stuff.

I'd still give a good water bath and WD-40 afterwards to get water out of the nooks and crannies just in case

C4IGrant
09-09-08, 12:56
Is that fixable with the feed ramps? I bought an "H" buffer from you Grant, how do I check and see if that's the right one? What mag springs would you recommend?

Yes, they are fixable, but you have to buy a new upper receiver.

An H buffer is of course better than what comes with the complete AR, but I belive you really need an H3 buffer.


C4

Jay Cunningham
09-09-08, 15:26
After I installed the supplied hammer spring in my lower the gun has run 100%. I have 14 magazines through it to date and they all drop free, feed properly and lock the bolt back on the last round. The rifle is easily as accurate as any other 5.56mm AR that I have shot and the performance envelope of the ammo is so close to 5.56mm that it is pretty much a non-issue for training continuity.

I believe I have seen pictures of the specific rifle Grant was referring to and the feed ramp geometry looked off to me. That can certainly be a show-stopper on any caliber AR.

I am (so far) overjoyed with this S&W upper and the CProducts magazines, so much so that I ordered five additional magazines and another 1080 round tin of Russian surplus ammo. While my initial impression of the magazines mirror Grant's (I was unimpressed) they have proven reliable - so far.

Regarding corrosion: I intentionally did not clean it for a week, then put another 6 magazines through it before I broke it down and took a look. No corrosion to speak of. I had previously lubed the rifle with WeaponShield. I then cleaned the rifle with boiling hot water and WD-40, then properly cleaned the barrel with Hoppe's and re-lubed the rifle with Ballistol, sort of as an experiment. I think with a fairly routine cleaning schedule the corrosion will be a non-issue. The place to look for corrosion is on the bolt (especially the face) and the front of the carrier.

Littlelebowski
09-14-08, 08:04
Mine chugged through 300 rounds like it was nothing. In a fairly short time too. Thekatar, Lancer 5.56 mags seem to work just fine. I had no luck with Pmags.

I cleaned mine with Windex and hot water. The barrel was really fouled.

C4IGrant
09-14-08, 09:50
More info on the 5.45 upper. We asked the customer that had issues with their 5.45 upper to put in a ISMI CS buffer spring and H3 to see if the bolt would lock back. It does. So I knew that we were dealing with a very large gas port. So I made a call to S&W and found out that the gas port is .073. This is HUGE. The only logic I can come up with for why they did this is because they were concerned about weak com bloc ammo no cycling (can understand this).

I am going to try and work with S&W to see if we can get them to bring the gas port down to around .068. In the mean time, if I was running this upper, I would be using an H3 buffer for certain!



C4

Littlelebowski
09-14-08, 09:52
My setup is the complete weapon using the supplied extra power hammer spring, an H buffer I got from you, Grant, and an O-ring upgrade.

100%, completely flawless on surplus ammo.

Robb Jensen
09-14-08, 10:04
More info on the 5.45 upper. We asked the customer that had issues with their 5.45 upper to put in a ISMI CS buffer spring and H3 to see if the bolt would lock back. It does. So I knew that we were dealing with a very large gas port. So I made a call to S&W and found out that the gas port is .073. This is HUGE. The only logic I can come up with for why they did this is because they were concerned about weak com bloc ammo no cycling (can understand this).

I am going to try and work with S&W to see if we can get them to bring the gas port down to around .068. In the mean time, if I was running this upper, I would be using an H3 buffer for certain!



C4

FWIW you're comparing:

5.45x39mm round with a chamber pressure of 41,500 psi

to a

5.56x45mm NATO round with a chamber pressure of 52,000 psi
or an apples to oranges comparison.

I'd recommend a CAR buffer unless I had extraction or feed problems.

C4IGrant
09-14-08, 10:08
FWIW you're comparing:

5.45x39mm round with a chamber pressure of 41,500 psi

to a

5.56x45mm NATO round with a chamber pressure of 52,000 psi
or an apples to oranges comparison.

I'd recommend a CAR buffer unless I had extraction or feed problems.

I am know that there is a pressure difference and is why I did say that the port needs to be .068 and not .063. I don't know if you have shot one of these yet, but the recoil feels more like a 6.8 when it should feel softer than a 5.56. The H3 buffer really cut the felt recoil down.


C4

Robb Jensen
09-14-08, 11:46
I am know that there is a pressure difference and is why I did say that the port needs to be .068 and not .063. I don't know if you have shot one of these yet, but the recoil feels more like a 6.8 when it should feel softer than a 5.56. The H3 buffer really cut the felt recoil down.


C4


I've not shot the S&W version but I do have more than 1K rounds down range on a old Alexander Arms version (never measured its gas port, but I'm sure Bill would share it with me confidentially if I asked him about it's gas port size). The .21Ghengis worked fine well extraction and ejection wise for me using a CAR buffer and spring. It did have several magazine feed problems and at the time no decent mags for it were available and now it's gone.

My beliefs which I can be totally wrong as I'm not an engineer:
5.45x39mm is a lower pressure cartridge which has a lower case volume and will need a bigger gas port (because of less gas volume pushing comparable bullet weight to that of the 5.56mm) to move the same carrier/buffer weight the 5.45x39mm will need more gas volume that the 5.56mm NATO would.
Does anyone know what the Arsenal SLR-105s (5.45x39mm) gas port size is vs. a SLR-106s. I'd bet that the 5.45x39mm is a little bigger.

Besides felt recoil, any noted problems with extraction?

Also take into account the heavier hammer spring on the S&W M&P15 5.45., it also plays a small role on bolt velocity.
If you're worried about felt recoil to the shoulder I'd say try a heavier rate action spring and try not add more mass (as in a heavier buffer), adding mass compounds the problem (more reciprocating mass moving slower, means you feel more weight moving over a longer period of time) slowing the bolt velocity via heavier spring won't add mass and won't change the amount of reciprocating mass as a heavier buffer would.
As long as the magazine could keep up I'd continue use the CAR buffer and standard spring this might require a stronger magazine spring, BTW LittleLewbowski Wolff +10% mag springs do fit and work well in the Lancer L5 mags. If I had a problem with extraction I would try a heavier rate action spring first (Wolff or ISMI).
If it's just recoil you want to control try a comp/brake like a PWS FSC556 which will very likely be a little quieter than it is on a 5.56mm NATO rifle also do to the fact of the 5.45x39s lower pressures, the AK-74 (the first rifles chambered in 5.45x39) use a very effective comp. My SLR-106FR has a AK74 brake and it recoils with M855 only slight more than my race-tuned 3gun rifle using .223 SAAMI ammo.

An example of what I mean about the amount of gas volume required to move mass:
I recently rebarreled my 3gun rifle with a 18" WOA midlength and had to increase the gas port .006" bigger (went from .085" to .091"). I use the JP LMOS 6.25oz bolt carrier. With the gas port at .085" it would eject and feed fine but would fail lock the bolt back when it ran empty with .223 SAAMI spec ammo, w/5.56mm NATO 8 times of 10 would lock back when empty. More gas volume was needed because of the lighter carrier. The lighter carrier (6.25oz) runs out of momentum sooner than a full weight AR15 or M16 carrier (8.63 to 9.46oz) would. Basically it boils down to if you take 1/3 of the weight out of anything it'll have much less momentum when it's moving.

More on felt recoil and reciprocating mass:
You can kinda see this with a Glock 22/31 (I have a Glock .40 and .357 barrel for my Glock 31).
Shooting 180gr .40S&W in a G22/31 is very muzzle flippy due to the slower slide velocity and a heavier slow bullet, drop in the .357SIG barrel and it energy shift from muzzle flip to more felt recoil straight backwards in your hands. This is due increase slide velocity. I find that I can shoot a .357SIG pistol much faster on target because of this. So following this phenomenon (for match guns only) I run lighter recoil springs in my handguns to increase the slides velocity so that slide velocity is increased for less muzzle flip. Once the 'happy spot' is found for spring rate I run that spring. Ideally the 'happy spot' is having the pistol snap back down exactly where the sights were aimed for the 1st shot. For my M&P9L shooting 115gr ball factory ammo this 'happy spot' for me is a 15lb ISMI spring. With my Limited pistol I've really lightened up the slide for less reciprocating mass and run a 14lb recoil spring with factory 180gr FMJ and a 12.5lb recoil spring for 'gamer' barely Major PF handloads, for .40 Minor PF loads I use an 11lb recoil spring. All three ways it shoots as flat as my M&P9L does with factory 115gr loads and a 15lb ISMI spring.

C4IGrant
09-14-08, 13:14
I've not shot the S&W version but I do have more than 1K rounds down range on a old Alexander Arms version (never measured its gas port, but I'm sure Bill would share it with me confidentially if I asked him about it's gas port size). The .21Ghengis worked fine well extraction and ejection wise for me using a CAR buffer and spring. It did have several magazine feed problems and at the time no decent mags for it were available and now it's gone.

My beliefs which I can be totally wrong as I'm not an engineer:
5.45x39mm is a lower pressure cartridge which has a lower case volume and will need a bigger gas port (because of less gas volume pushing comparable bullet weight to that of the 5.56mm) to move the same carrier/buffer weight the 5.45x39mm will need more gas volume that the 5.56mm NATO would.
Does anyone know what the Arsenal SLR-105s (5.45x39mm) gas port size is vs. a SLR-106s. I'd bet that the 5.45x39mm is a little bigger.

Besides felt recoil, any noted problems with extraction?

Also take into account the heavier hammer spring on the S&W M&P15 5.45., it also plays a small role on bolt velocity.
If you're worried about felt recoil to the shoulder I'd say try a heavier rate action spring and try not add more mass (as in a heavier buffer), adding mass compounds the problem (more reciprocating mass moving slower, means you feel more weight moving over a longer period of time) slowing the bolt velocity via heavier spring won't add mass and won't change the amount of reciprocating mass as a heavier buffer would.
As long as the magazine could keep up I'd continue use the CAR buffer and standard spring this might require a stronger magazine spring, BTW LittleLewbowski Wolff +10% mag springs do fit and work well in the Lancer L5 mags. If I had a problem with extraction I would try a heavier rate action spring first (Wolff or ISMI).
If it's just recoil you want to control try a comp/brake like a PWS FSC556 which will very likely be a little quieter than it is on a 5.56mm NATO rifle also do to the fact of the 5.45x39s lower pressures, the AK-74 (the first rifles chambered in 5.45x39) use a very effective comp. My SLR-106FR has a AK74 brake and it recoils with M855 only slight more than my race-tuned 3gun rifle using .223 SAAMI ammo.

An example of what I mean about the amount of gas volume required to move mass:
I recently rebarreled my 3gun rifle with a 18" WOA midlength and had to increase the gas port .006" bigger (went from .085" to .091"). I use the JP LMOS 6.25oz bolt carrier. With the gas port at .085" it would eject and feed fine but would fail lock the bolt back when it ran empty with .223 SAAMI spec ammo, w/5.56mm NATO 8 times of 10 would lock back when empty. More gas volume was needed because of the lighter carrier. The lighter carrier (6.25oz) runs out of momentum sooner than a full weight AR15 or M16 carrier (8.63 to 9.46oz) would. Basically it boils down to if you take 1/3 of the weight out of anything it'll have much less momentum when it's moving.

More on felt recoil and reciprocating mass:
You can kinda see this with a Glock 22/31 (I have a Glock .40 and .357 barrel for my Glock 31).
Shooting 180gr .40S&W in a G22/31 is very muzzle flippy due to the slower slide velocity and a heavier slow bullet, drop in the .357SIG barrel and it energy shift from muzzle flip to more felt recoil straight backwards in your hands. This is due increase slide velocity. I find that I can shoot a .357SIG pistol much faster on target because of this. So following this phenomenon (for match guns only) I run lighter recoil springs in my handguns to increase the slides velocity so that slide velocity is increased for less muzzle flip. Once the 'happy spot' is found for spring rate I run that spring. Ideally the 'happy spot' is having the pistol snap back down exactly where the sights were aimed for the 1st shot. For my M&P9L shooting 115gr ball factory ammo this 'happy spot' for me is a 15lb ISMI spring. With my Limited pistol I've really lightened up the slide for less reciprocating mass and run a 14lb recoil spring with factory 180gr FMJ and a 12.5lb recoil spring for 'gamer' barely Major PF handloads, for .40 Minor PF loads I use an 11lb recoil spring. All three ways it shoots as flat as my M&P9L does with factory 115gr loads and a 15lb ISMI spring.

There maybe extraction issue with this gas port size, but with the short amount of rounds I have fed it, I did not see any. I would be more concerned about bolt over ride.

I do not disagree that you cannot put a .063 gas port in a 5.45, but you also should not put a .073 in one either! If I put an H3 buffer and a ISMI A2 CS buffer spring in a gun and it locks back with zero issue, then the weapon is for certain over gased. I have asked S&W to look at how many rounds a minute the weapon is shooting so we can get a better idea of how over gased it is. Let us not forget that over time the gas port errodes and becomes bigger (faster). So making the gas port as big as it can be may lead to a lot of issues when the weapon climbs to into the 5-7K range.

The H3 buffer with a standard SS buffer spring reduced felt recoil noticeable. The down side (as you know) is there is more muzzle bounce as the buffer moves forward.

We also put ISMI mag springs in the CProducts mags as I believe that the springs coming with those mags SUCK and are having a hard time driving the rounds up.

When you get a chance, shoot one of these uppers and mess around with the buffer weight and spring tensions and see what you think.


C4

Solid
09-14-08, 14:24
More info on the 5.45 upper. We asked the customer that had issues with their 5.45 upper to put in a ISMI CS buffer spring and H3 to see if the bolt would lock back. It does. So I knew that we were dealing with a very large gas port. So I made a call to S&W and found out that the gas port is .073. This is HUGE. The only logic I can come up with for why they did this is because they were concerned about weak com bloc ammo no cycling (can understand this).

I am going to try and work with S&W to see if we can get them to bring the gas port down to around .068. In the mean time, if I was running this upper, I would be using an H3 buffer for certain!



C4

Could they simply trying to avoid the user needing to clean as well? Some tolerance for letting it gum up. Not sure just an idea.

C4IGrant
09-14-08, 14:28
Could they simply trying to avoid the user needing to clean as well? Some tolerance for letting it gum up. Not sure just an idea.



No as most of the 5.45 is corrosive.



C4

Jay Cunningham
09-14-08, 18:20
I received five new style magazines for CProducts.

The new style mag has a very beautiful, smooth semi-gloss black Teflon finish. I plan on opening these up vs. the older style and visually comparing the springs and then loading them up side by side in an attempt to feel a difference.

FWIW I'm using an H marked buffer, no issues to date. I would not use anything other than the USGI A2 flash hider as this piece is one of three that takes the brunt of the corrosive residue. It's your money, though.

Littlelebowski
09-14-08, 18:29
Dang, I just received an order of what looks to be the standard USGI flat gray finished 5.45 C Products mags. TheKatar, do you think these are standard USGI mag bodies?

Guess I'll have to order some more mags.

Jay Cunningham
09-14-08, 18:40
Dang, I just received an order of what looks to be the standard USGI flat gray finished 5.45 C Products mags. TheKatar, do you think these are standard USGI mag bodies?

Guess I'll have to order some more mags.

Why are you upset? Have you tried these yet? My grey mar-lube magazines run 100% so far... I was actually slightly put out that they changed from the grey ones...

Jay Cunningham
09-14-08, 19:29
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=16&pictureid=84

The followers and the springs look the same to my eye.

Ron3
09-14-08, 22:54
I got a new Ar15R (complete) a few weeks ago.

Fired it one day last week, 300rnds of Bulgarian Surplus and five C-products mags. (the old style I believe)

Zero stoppages. Cleaning just included the extra step of hot water flushing initially.

This is my first AR btw, I'm more of an AK guy.

So are the new mags exactly the same except for the finish?

Jay Cunningham
09-14-08, 23:23
So are the new mags exactly the same except for the finish?

It would appear so but until I load them up and run them through side by side I can't say 100% for sure.

Littlelebowski
09-15-08, 05:28
Not upset, just kidding about the all black color scheme I'm going with on this gun. Best kept open secret in the gun business as far as I'm concerned.

C4IGrant
09-16-08, 10:48
One other thing you can do to drop some of the pressure on these guns, get a LMT Enhanced carrier (not the enhanced BCG). The thrid vent hole should help some with the extra gas.



C4

Jay Cunningham
09-16-08, 17:26
Just came back from the range with 12 magazines through the carbine for a combined total to date of 728 rounds of corrosive Russian 5.45x39mm. 3 of those magazines were used in an 84 round mag dump as fast as I could pull the trigger and swap mags - no issues.

I experience one stoppage* (with an asterisk) - I think I may have induced a "trigger freeze" on a rapid string. I got a dead trigger and as I moved to tap/roll/rack I observed my bolt carrier was full forward. I cleared the stoppage easily and continued to shoot. I recovered the ejected round and it was in perfect shape.

So out of 728 rounds I have had two possible stoppages. Sorry I can't be more sure but I am being honest.

All of my new black Teflon magazines feed 100%, dropped free and locked back the bolt.

Jay Cunningham
09-16-08, 21:26
Also take into account the heavier hammer spring on the S&W M&P15 5.45., it also plays a small role on bolt velocity.

Would there be any issues shooting a standard 5.56mm AR upper with this heavier hammer spring?

Robb Jensen
09-16-08, 21:33
Would there be any issues shooting a standard 5.56mm AR upper with this heavier hammer spring?

Other than a heavy ass trigger pull? No, as long as you don't have too much firing pin protrusion.
The Geissele trigger also has a harder hit that a 'stock/OEM' trigger.....and runs equally as reliable in the several I've used.

Jay Cunningham
09-16-08, 21:39
You are right about the heavy trigger pull on the 5.45 AR. I am used to it now but it was weird at first. When I transitioned to my Glock the trigger felt like a 1911 in comparison!

Ok, not really....

jjw
09-18-08, 18:50
Yes, they are fixable, but you have to buy a new upper receiver.
An H buffer is of course better than what comes with the complete AR, but I believe you really need an H3 buffer.

C4

f.y.i. i read grants post on buffers and for those not following this thread i have a smith 5.45 and love it and its reliable to 99.999%. due to back surgery i dont shoot much and the recoils is bad for me now. SOOOOOOO
put in a h-3 grant sent me sometime ago smoother less recoil and probably not as hard on the gun. (not sure i care)

grant has giveen me advice on buffers 3 times and NEVER EVER been wrong. while we are competitors sort of, i still listen to him on technical stuff like buffers.
BOTTEM LINE
put in the h-3 (get it from grant) and the gun will
1. run smoother
2. less recoil
3. probably last longer
4 more reliable dont know in general mine runs great. also not enough on the street to tell. but grant has always been correct on buffers. he is this time too.

C4IGrant
09-18-08, 19:08
f.y.i. i read grants post on buffers and for those not following this thread i have a smith 5.45 and love it and its reliable to 99.999%. due to back surgery i dont shoot much and the recoils is bad for me now. SOOOOOOO
put in a h-3 grant sent me sometime ago smoother less recoil and probably not as hard on the gun. (not sure i care)

grant has give me advice on buffers 3 times and NEVER EVER been wrong. while we are competitors sort of, i still listen to him on technical stuff like buffers.
BOTTEM LINE
put in the h-3 (get it from grant) and the gun will
1. run smoother
2. less recoil
3. probably last longer
4 more reliable dont know in general mine runs great. also not enough on the street to tell. but grant has always been correct on buffers. he is this time too.


Good to hear!


C4

Robb Jensen
09-18-08, 22:23
There maybe extraction issue with this gas port size, but with the short amount of rounds I have fed it, I did not see any. I would be more concerned about bolt over ride.

I do not disagree that you cannot put a .063 gas port in a 5.45, but you also should not put a .073 in one either! If I put an H3 buffer and a ISMI A2 CS buffer spring in a gun and it locks back with zero issue, then the weapon is for certain over gased. I have asked S&W to look at how many rounds a minute the weapon is shooting so we can get a better idea of how over gased it is. Let us not forget that over time the gas port errodes and becomes bigger (faster). So making the gas port as big as it can be may lead to a lot of issues when the weapon climbs to into the 5-7K range.

The H3 buffer with a standard SS buffer spring reduced felt recoil noticeable. The down side (as you know) is there is more muzzle bounce as the buffer moves forward.

We also put ISMI mag springs in the CProducts mags as I believe that the springs coming with those mags SUCK and are having a hard time driving the rounds up.

When you get a chance, shoot one of these uppers and mess around with the buffer weight and spring tensions and see what you think.


C4

Running an H3 and a heavier spring will not stop gas port erosion on a CAR length AR (any caliber). Running a very heavy buffers will just give you less heavy buffer to move up to after the gas port erodes very big.
To slow down gas port erosion you need to move the port further down the barrel.....which is what a midlength does. Gas port size is caliber and barrel length specific.

Just because a particular rifle will lock back even with a H3 buffer isn't a good gauge as to whether the gas port is too large. Locking back on a H3 buffer however is a great indicator that your magazine and magazine spring/follower are in great shape and that magazine has plenty of time to lift the bolt catch in time to stop the bolt before the bolt can move fully forward. If a S&W 5.45mm AR is locking back when it's empty on a CAR buffer and a H3 buffer then it's not cycling too fast, if it were cycling too fast it would 'over-cycle' the bolt. Over-cycling means that the bolt has moved forward before the magazine lifted the the bolt catch and the bolt catch lifted and intercepted the bolt keeping it from going forward on an empty chamber. In a perfect world should it short cycle on a H3?....maybe but then it probably would not work very well when hot, dirty and/or dry.

Extraction problems or failure to pick up the next round in the mag are the indicators of an AR cycling too fast (due to too large of a gas port).

If your gas port is too big, I would recommend 1 of 2 things.
Easy fix: Run a PRI FatBoy gas tube.
Harder but better fix: Fix the gas port and essentially start over:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=65785&postcount=8

Using felt recoil as a gauge of how an AR is running is poor way to figure out gas port size/over-gassed/under-gassed.

Ways to change felt recoil, change any or all of the following and the felt recoil changes:

Rifle weight.
Shooter stance/grip.
Muzzle brake/comp.
Reciprocating weight within the rifle.
Amount of gas making it to the carrier.

C4IGrant
09-18-08, 22:33
Running an H3 and a heavier spring will not stop gas port erosion on a CAR length AR (any caliber). Running a very heavy buffers will just give you less heavy buffer to move up to after the gas port erodes very big.
To slow down gas port erosion you need to move the port further down the barrel.....which is what a midlength does. Gas port size is caliber and barrel length specific.


Agree. Never said that any buffer or spring would stop gas port erosion.



Just because a particular rifle will lock back even with a H3 buffer isn't a good gauge as to whether the gas port is too large.

Agree as well. An H3 buffer and an A2, ISMI CS buffer spring sure is. This setup will choke many .063 gas ported AR's.


Locking back on a H3 buffer however is a great indicator that your magazine and magazine spring/follower are in great shape and that magazine has plenty of time to lift the bolt catch in time to stop the bolt before the bolt can move fully forward. If a S&W 5.45mm AR is locking back when it's empty on a CAR buffer and a H3 buffer then it's not cycling too fast, if it were cycling too fast it would 'over-cycle' the bolt. Over-cycling means that the bolt has moved forward before the magazine lifted the the bolt catch and the bolt catch lifted and intercepted the bolt keeping it from going forward on an empty chamber. In a perfect world should it short cycle on a H3?....maybe but then it probably would not work very well when hot, dirty and/or dry.

The ONE 5.45 I have played with locked back on a carbine buffer and an H3 with an A2 ISMI CS buffer spring. The gun should not lock this combo back IMHO and is over gased. I am trying to get S&W to do a cyclic rate test on it. That will tell use for sure what is going on.


Extraction problems or failure to pick up the next round in the mag are the indicators of an AR cycling too fast (due to too large of a gas port).

If your gas port is too big, I would recommend 1 of 2 things.
Easy fix: Run a PRI FatBoy gas tube.
Harder but better fix: Fix the gas port and essentially start over:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=65785&postcount=8

Using felt recoil as a gauge of how an AR is running is poor way to figure out gas port size/over-gassed/under-gassed.

Ways to change felt recoil, change any or all of the following and the felt recoil changes:

Rifle weight.
Shooter stance/grip.
Muzzle brake/comp.
Reciprocating weight within the rifle.
Amount of gas making it to the carrier.



Felt recoil and the fact that it is locking back on a setup that it should not is all I have at the moment. As I said, am trying to get a cyclic test done to know for certain. I am also asking S&W to build a barrel with a .063 gas port and see what we get.

We shall see my friend!


C4

Jay Cunningham
09-19-08, 05:06
Mine is running just fine so I'm not going to monkey with anything.

Littlelebowski
09-19-08, 05:34
Mine is running just fine so I'm not going to monkey with anything.

Same here. Running flawlessly.

C4IGrant
09-19-08, 07:49
Mine is running just fine so I'm not going to monkey with anything.

Great! There are other ones that are not and need to be worked over a bit.

I personally think that the 5.45X39 upper is the best idea ever and would like to see S&W make it as reliable as possible.



C4

rob_s
09-19-08, 09:08
Is someone selling the uppers alone? If so, who and how much? Hoping for an upper complete with handguards and BCG/CH.

C4IGrant
09-19-08, 09:10
Is someone selling the uppers alone? If so, who and how much? Hoping for an upper complete with handguards and BCG/CH.

I am trying to as soon as S&W fills my order.


C4

Littlelebowski
09-19-08, 09:10
Grant has mentioned selling them to M4C members for $600. I believe they're going for more than that on Gunbroker.

kittyhawk
09-19-08, 09:37
AIM has them for $569.

I think Grant could do a little better than that.

Dave

Jay Cunningham
09-19-08, 10:03
Is someone selling the uppers alone? If so, who and how much? Hoping for an upper complete with handguards and BCG/CH.

I bought my complete upper from Talon.

rob_s
09-20-08, 18:11
Anyone run ballistics on the common ammo and best ranges at which to zero with a 16" barrel and an Aimpoint in a lower 1/3 mount?

Can't imagine that the 50/200 thing still holds true.

I don't have a chrono so....

Robb Jensen
09-21-08, 08:07
Anyone run ballistics on the common ammo and best ranges at which to zero with a 16" barrel and an Aimpoint in a lower 1/3 mount?

Can't imagine that the 50/200 thing still holds true.

I don't have a chrono so....

I'd like to chrono one as well.
This is just from info I've found about 5.45x39.

I don't know if this info is accurate or not.
Velocity = 2936fps, BC = 0.366 for a 60gr .214" boattail, optic of bore=2.75"

With a ballistics calculator this gives:

0yds = -2.75"
25yds = -1.24"
50yds = 0.00"
75yds = +.97"
100yds = +1.64"
125yds = +2.00"
150yds = +2.06"
175yds = +1.77"
200yds = +1.14"
225yds = +0.13"
250yds = -1.26"
275yds = -3.06"
300yds = -5.29"

Not as flat as an AR but not terrible either.

Jay Cunningham
09-21-08, 08:17
Anyone run ballistics on the common ammo and best ranges at which to zero with a 16" barrel and an Aimpoint in a lower 1/3 mount?

Can't imagine that the 50/200 thing still holds true.

I don't have a chrono so....

Rob,

I don't know if this answer will be satisfying to you, but: it's close enough for government work..

I didn't have any chance at 200 but at 50 the results are similar when I move into 25, etc. Holdovers will always be there, but they will not be precise. The ballistics are close enough for practice/training purposes, IMO.

I am currently enamoured with the 100m zero myself. I know it's not as versatile as the 50/200 but will all the AK's I've shot zeroed at 100m I've come to appreciate it.

rob_s
09-21-08, 08:53
I'd like to chrono one as well.
This is just from info I've found about 5.45x39.

I don't know if this info is accurate or not.
Velocity = 2936fps, BC = 0.366 for a 60gr .214" boattail, optic of bore=2.75"

With a ballistics calculator this gives:

0yds = -2.75"
25yds = -1.24"
50yds = 0.00"
75yds = +.97"
100yds = +1.64"
125yds = +2.00"
150yds = +2.06"
175yds = +1.77"
200yds = +1.14"
225yds = +0.13"
250yds = -1.26"
275yds = -3.06"
300yds = -5.29"

Not as flat as an AR but not terrible either.

So then, in theory and without the hard numbers, it appears that the 50 yard zero will at least give you a "close enough" at 200, with a deviation of 2"+/- or less out to 250.

Robb Jensen
09-21-08, 08:55
So then, in theory and without the hard numbers, it appears that the 50 yard zero will at least give you a "close enough" at 200, with a deviation of 2"+/- or less out to 250.

I think so.

cptx123
09-23-08, 11:52
I have a Smith that will shoot surplus 52 grain and wolf 70grain, but it key holes every other round with wolf 60grain. Has anyone else have issues with this?

Jay Cunningham
09-23-08, 15:46
I have a Smith that will shoot surplus 52 grain and wolf 70grain, but it key holes every other round with wolf 60grain. Has anyone else have issues with this?

Very interesting!

Here is a quote from me from a previous AAR:


Possible new data point concerning 12.5" barrel 5.45x39mm platforms and Wolf 60 gr FMJ ammo - my weapon was KH'ing some of this stuff, noticed on TD2. The 16.25" AK-74M clone seemed to shoot it fine, and the 12.5" seemed to run with the Bulgy 53 gr. I need to conduct more testing to see if this hypothesis is valid. Even then, it is only valid for my rifle until we can gather additional data. note: AIM Surplus is now selling tins of Russian 53 gr instead.

Jay Cunningham
09-24-08, 19:08
Two more magazines today shooting portions of the MEUSOC for a total of 784 rounds.

No issues.

Littlelebowski
09-24-08, 20:07
I'm at about 600 rounds on mine. No problems whatsoever with Lancer and C Products mags. I'll be putting the hurt on the gun this weekend, probably about 1K rounds in one day, easily. I'll be camping with some friends from another forum up in PA at an abandoned airport and everybody wants to shoot it.

austinN4
09-24-08, 21:32
I'll be camping with some friends........up in PA at an abandoned airport..............
Sounds like an X Files plot! :D Have fun!

Littlelebowski
09-24-08, 21:37
Dude, if the aliens show up, they'd better be packing some heat :D

sjc3081
09-25-08, 17:07
I'm about to take the 5.45x39 plunge. I'll order the SW upper and 10k of ammo. Is the SW upper 100% reliable with the CP mags. Id hate to spend two grand and end up burnt ,like I did when I took the AR10 plunge.

Littlelebowski
09-25-08, 17:10
Mine has 100% reliable with C Products and Lancer mags. Of course I bought the whole rifle but I can't imagine you having any problems.

sjc3081
09-25-08, 17:15
LL thanks.

Littlelebowski
09-25-08, 17:37
Feel free to hit me up with any questions you might have, sjc3081.

Jay Cunningham
09-25-08, 18:18
I'm about to take the 5.45x39 plunge. I'll order the SW upper and 10k of ammo. Is the SW upper 100% reliable with the CP mags. Id hate to spend two grand and end up burnt ,like I did when I took the AR10 plunge.

So far mine is.

Jay Cunningham
09-26-08, 22:37
One thing that I found out first hand - the 10% Ballistol/90% water thing did not give me good results on my AR. In fact, after trying this method I got the most corrosion, very evident in my flash hider. This was only after two magazines.

The best result I got was immediately (while still at the range and the gun still hot) spraying the BCG and FH down with Slip2000 725 Gun Cleaner/Degreaser and then wiping the stuff off and lubing with Ballistol. I also ran a dry BoreSnake though one time. This combo completely prevented corrosion after putting a full 12 magazines through.

Note: Ballistol works far better than I thought it would in a hostile environment like the innards of an AR, but work it does.

rob_s
09-27-08, 06:47
Anyone trying the windex trick?

Also, what is the application schedule for cleaning this stuff?

Let's say you ran one of these in an 800 round/day carbine class. When would you clean it and how?

Jay Cunningham
09-27-08, 08:38
Anyone trying the windex trick?

Also, what is the application schedule for cleaning this stuff?

Let's say you ran one of these in an 800 round/day carbine class. When would you clean it and how?

I will not be trying the so-called Windex trick because I think that it's a gimmick. Windex has a high ammonia content and I really don't want it on my aluminum skinned AR. I am fairly confident it is the water in the Windex that "does the trick" - the Slip2000 725 I described above is also water-based. I will stick to stuff designed for firearms.

I can't remember that last time I shot 800 rounds/day in a class, but either way I would simply give it a quick clean and lube as I described above back at the hotel room (probably would take 20 min) and then when I got home give it a proper cleaning in the garage. AR's are pretty corrosion resistant, actually more so than AK's since there is much more steel in an AK and IMO this is more susceptible to corrosion than anodized aluminum.

cptx123
09-27-08, 13:22
I hose mine out with hot water then brake parts cleaner and then clean with clp, no problems yet.

Jay Cunningham
09-27-08, 13:53
I hose mine out with hot water then brake parts cleaner and then clean with clp, no problems yet.

I suspect that is a good way to do it as well. I have been reading across the net various voodoo ways of cleaning corrosive residue out of guns and it is a bit amusing. I am thinking chicken blood and cigar smoke while wearing a top hat and alot of bead necklaces will be the next thing I read.

Here are the facts:

The primers contain a chemical that leaves a residue (a "salt") all over most of the inside of the gun.

These salts attract moisture out of the air like nobody's business - in a dry environment there won't be an issue. Once there is a bit of humidity these little salts will suck up the moisture and start the oxidation process.

Neither petrolium nor ammonia really do much to these salts, but running water will disolve them away. Scrubbing them off with a brush or cloth works as well.

So... in an AR like I have, it makes sense to run a boresnake through once to loosen up the deposited salts and then to pour a gallon of water down the barrel and gas tube. Boiling water will in fact evaporate faster but who has boiling water? Anyway, once the water does it's job, you want it gone. WD-40 down the barrel will displace all of the water.

The BCG can be easily scrubbed with Balistol which will mechanically remove the salts, so a water flush really is not needed. Wipe down the rest of the inside of the receivers. Also lube the muzzle device after the above. An led light works wonders to inspect - the corrosive reside is very easy to see, a bright orange red.

Common sense does indeed apply. Tho only reason the water is needed down the barrel and gas tube is because those can't really be thoroughly cleaned through mechanical removal.

BarryP
09-27-08, 18:07
I shot my S&W 5.45 upper for the first time today on an old Olympic lower. It functioned perfectly for the 180 rounds I shot out of it. I shot late 80s Bulgarian, either 1988 or 1989. I did not install the extra power hammer spring, there were no problems with the standard spring(BM lower parts kit in the lower).

20rd g.i. mags work ok but the rounds want to nose dive while loading so you have to tap the mag upside down on a table or something, not optimal for sure and I wont be using them again.

I had perfect luck loading up the Cproducts 30rd all the way and a 9rd Colt that came with the Colt ban rifles and current "target" rifles they sell.

S&W and Cproducts should be proud of coming out with such an outstanding upper and magazine that work so well. This is a great alternative to training with costly 5.56.

Jay Cunningham
09-27-08, 18:16
I shot my S&W 5.45 upper for the first time today on an old Olympic lower. It functioned perfectly for the 180 rounds I shot out of it. I shot late 80s Bulgarian, either 1988 or 1989. I did not install the extra power hammer spring, there were no problems with the standard spring(BM lower parts kit in the lower).

20rd g.i. mags work ok but the rounds want to nose dive while loading so you have to tap the mag upside down on a table or something, not optimal for sure and I wont be using them again.

I had perfect luck loading up the Cproducts 30rd all the way and a 9rd Colt that came with the Colt ban rifles and current "target" rifles they sell.

S&W and Cproducts should be proud of coming out with such an outstanding upper and magazine that work so well. This is a great alternative to training with costly 5.56.

Thanks for the report.

I agree this is a great combo for training and practice and it seems that they got it (mostly) right on the first go-round.

IrishDevil
09-28-08, 21:42
I received my upper on Friday from AIM. Got to the range today, no problems at all. I only have the one CProducts mag that came with the upper, it's one of the gray mags. I didn't have any problems with it, but I think the spring needs replacing, seems weak to me. I ran 150 rds of Wolf 60 grain, with good accuracy. Zero was done at 50 yards, best group I got with the irons was 10 rds into 1.5". I forgot my Bulgarian and Russian surplus ammo at home. I put the upper on a lower with a CAR buffer, that I normally use with my 16" Sabre Mid. I didn't install the hammer spring included with the upper. I'm thinking that I may build a new lower for this upper, depending on performance with surplus ammo. One thing is for certain, I have to put a longer rail on this upper. I burned my finger tips several times on the short handguards, I'm used to midlength's. I ordered 10 more mags earlier, it seems I've found my new training/match upper/gun. I'm somewhat considering the Troy 12" rail with cut-out for the front sight. What I really want to see is a lightweight mid-length in 5.45 with 4150 barrel steel.

Jay Cunningham
09-28-08, 22:45
I received my upper on Friday from AIM. Got to the range today, no problems at all. I only have the one CProducts mag that came with the upper, it's one of the gray mags. I didn't have any problems with it, but I think the spring needs replacing, seems weak to me.

So, no problems yet you want to start replacing stuff?

IrishDevil
09-28-08, 23:14
Well not really, the spring just seemed softer. I just compared it to one of my PMag's and it seems to be a little softer. It proved to function just fine today though. As this is only a range gun, I'll run the stock springs until they need replacement.

I'm pretty enthusiastic about this upper, and the lower cost range time it will provide. Only 150 rds down the tube so far, but it seems the 5.45 will see alot more use than my 5.56 rifles. I previously had a dedicated Wolf 223/5.56 upper and sold it to move to a midlength. I'm thinking I'll skip it now and just use the 5.45. I haven't read anything negative on this upper, and S&W may have a winner.

eightmillimeter
09-29-08, 02:15
Anyone trying the windex trick?

Also, what is the application schedule for cleaning this stuff?

Let's say you ran one of these in an 800 round/day carbine class. When would you clean it and how?


Rob,

I used to shoot boatloads of corrosive ammo when I could get 900 round cases of 8mm (no pun intended) for 57 bucks. When I first learned what corrosive ammo was I was freaked out about cleaning. I bought into the whole windex thing because its cheap and it does work, i just sprayed it into the barrel, brushed, and dry patched, repeated one or two times, then cleaned normally. Sometimes I did it at the range, sometimes when I got home. The important thing is just not to let a weapon sit with that crap in it for a length of time. 800 rounds in a day I don't think would cause any problems other than a dirty gun, but I would want to clean it quickly.

That said, I settled on using water with a couple drops of dish soap in a used squirt bottle to take care of my corrosive ammo issues, never had a problem.

There are two things that scare me about corrosive ammo in an AR.
1) The flash hider, it will be a pain to completely clean that all the time, I might even consider taking it off because rust or pitting around the crown could be very bad. I think I would seriously consider just taking off the flash hider and using a thread protector.

2) Inside the carrier, that crap will get everywhere in there and you would want it to be spotless after a corrosive range session.

Littlelebowski
09-29-08, 07:32
Anyone trying the windex trick?

Also, what is the application schedule for cleaning this stuff?

Let's say you ran one of these in an 800 round/day carbine class. When would you clean it and how?

I let mine go without cleaning for 2 days this weekend while at an informal get together/shoot in PA. The bright orange corrosion was certainly there yesterday when I got around to cleaning it and worrisome enough that I would recommend at least rinsing it with Windex or Ballistol and relubing at the end of the first day of a two day class.

Mine has over 1500 rounds through it and not one malfunction that was not mag related (using USGI mags is a no-no and I did have one malfunction with a Lancer mag).

I am very pleased with this weapon. I have abused it and it kept a smile on my face and kept on running.

f.2
10-02-08, 21:39
Where are you'all getting your M&P15R Upper / SKU: 812005 from? Talon Arms is out atm. I am on the lookout for an AKS-74 and already had an RGuns two tin case on my doorstep this evening after work.

:cool:

Jay Cunningham
10-02-08, 21:53
Two more magazines today shooting portions of the MEUSOC for a total of 784 rounds.

No issues.

One magazine today during transition drills for a total of 812 rounds; no issues.

IrishDevil
10-02-08, 23:37
I bought my upper from AIM Surplus, $569 plus shipping. I also buy my 5.45 from them, so far I'm up to 10,800 rds. I received my 10 mags direct from CProducts, they are the black finish. I plan on hitting the range tomorrow afternoon.





Where are you'all getting your M&P15R Upper / SKU: 812005 from? Talon Arms is out atm. I am on the lookout for an AKS-74 and already had an RGuns two tin case on my doorstep this evening after work.

:cool:

Robb Jensen
10-08-08, 15:39
More info on the 5.45 upper. We asked the customer that had issues with their 5.45 upper to put in a ISMI CS buffer spring and H3 to see if the bolt would lock back. It does. So I knew that we were dealing with a very large gas port. So I made a call to S&W and found out that the gas port is .073. This is HUGE. The only logic I can come up with for why they did this is because they were concerned about weak com bloc ammo no cycling (can understand this).

I am going to try and work with S&W to see if we can get them to bring the gas port down to around .068. In the mean time, if I was running this upper, I would be using an H3 buffer for certain!



C4


FWIW I got an older .21 Ghengis Alexander Arms (5.45x39mm) 16" M4 profile barrel on trade today. It has 50 rounds through it and it's gas port is .078"

Jay Cunningham
10-08-08, 15:44
So that tracks with this:



My beliefs which I can be totally wrong as I'm not an engineer:
5.45x39mm is a lower pressure cartridge which has a lower case volume and will need a bigger gas port (because of less gas volume pushing comparable bullet weight to that of the 5.56mm) to move the same carrier/buffer weight the 5.45x39mm will need more gas volume that the 5.56mm NATO would.

right?

C4IGrant
10-08-08, 16:39
FWIW I got an older .21 Ghengis Alexander Arms (5.45x39mm) 16" M4 profile barrel on trade today. It has 50 rounds through it and it's gas port is .078"



Yes I know as I just got off the phone with Bill A. I advised him of the fact that I am getting an H3 buffer with an ISMI A2 spring to lock back with wolf ammo. He advised me that there is something wrong as it should not do that. The theory is that S&W might be using a SAAMI chamber and it is too tight creating a pressure spike. When Bill made his .21, he used a much looser chamber and did not get the same issues that I am seeing.

I went out and got the JP front sight base (the one that allows you to adjust the gas) and installed it onto the S&W upper I have. I am going to start turning down the gas and see how low I can go. If Bill is right and the chamber is too tight, then I bet the weapon will cycle with a gas port size of .067-.068.


C4

Robb Jensen
10-08-08, 17:00
So that tracks with this:

right?

I believe so The_Katar.


Grant,
Sounds like Ned Christiansen may have a future in 5.45x39mm reamers!

C4IGrant
10-08-08, 17:06
I believe so The_Katar.


Grant,
Sounds like Ned Christiansen may have a future in 5.45x39mm reamers!


Could be! One way or the other, I will make this gun work properly! ;)




C4

Jay Cunningham
10-08-08, 17:37
After I reach the 1080 round mark (which I am confident I will, uneventfully) I will try it with an H3 buffer I got off Grant just to see what it feels like.

I still am not sure about this "fixing" a rifle that isn't broken thing.

How about "optimizing"... that's a cool word.

C4IGrant
10-08-08, 18:23
After I reach the 1080 round mark (which I am confident I will, uneventfully) I will try it with an H3 buffer I got off Grant just to see what it feels like.

I still am not sure about this "fixing" a rifle that isn't broken thing.

How about "optimizing"... that's a cool word.

Guns that have as little pressure as the 5.45 does, but have the recoil feel of a 7.62 is a problem that needs fixed. You will eventually start to break things like bolts as you are basically beating the gun to death.

This gun should feel like a weak 223, but it does not.

Not to mention that the mags are really half assed. The legs on the front of the follower need to be full length and the spring needs to have much more power (read longer).

There also appears to be a big issue with HP ammo and these guns. This where extended feed ramps on the upper receiver come into play.

Some other food for thought. You are most likely shooting the 53gr ammo. You also got a gun with better M4 feed ramps. People that are having issues are ones shooting 60-70gr ammo (FMJ and HP). With the 53gr ammo, your gun most likely does not recoil like the ones with the heavier grain ammo as this ammo is causing a spike in pressure as the chambers are most likely SAAMI.


C4

Jay Cunningham
10-08-08, 18:31
Guns that have as little pressure as the 5.45 does, but have the recoil feel of a 7.62 is a problem that needs fixed. You will eventually start to break things like bolts as you are basically beating the gun to death.

This gun should feel like a weak 223, but it does not.

Not to mention that the mags are really half assed. The legs on the front of the follower need to be full length and the spring needs to have much more power (read longer).

There also appears to be a big issue with HP ammo and these guns. This where extended feed ramps on the upper receiver come into play.


C4

Agree with the half-ass feel of the magazines yet ALL of mine (I have 10) all have fed 100% reliably to date.

I plan on reaching the 1080 round goal by doing a mini-torture test of nine magazines (28 rounds each) back to back plus 16 rounds out of mag ten.

It won't be literally as fast as I can press the trigger but it will be essentially mag dumps. The last couple of rounds I'll leave in the hot gun and then let it cool down before I fire them off.

C4IGrant
10-08-08, 18:35
Agree with the half-ass feel of the magazines yet ALL of mine (I have 10) all have fed 100% reliably to date.

I plan on reaching the 1080 round goal by doing a mini-torture test of nine magazines (28 rounds each) back to back plus 16 rounds out of mag ten.

It won't be literally as fast as I can press the trigger but it will be essentially mag dumps. The last couple of rounds I'll leave in the hot gun and then let it cool down before I fire them off.


SS springs only have about 10% of their life (new). My concern is that at about 6 months of hard use, all of these mags will fail as they are just BARELY hanging on. They are also the main cause of malfunctions with heavier grain ammo and HP's.

One of the board members found that by cramming a AK-74 mag spring into the CProducts mags that it fixed the majority of their feeding issues. Now the question is, does anyone know where we can get 74 mag spring??


C4

Jay Cunningham
10-08-08, 18:42
Well, AK mag springs can be had, but why not just use the aftermarket heavy AR mag springs? Doesn't Wolf and S.A.W. market those items?

C4IGrant
10-08-08, 18:46
Well, AK mag springs can be had, but why not just use the aftermarket heavy AR mag springs? Doesn't Wolf and S.A.W. market those items?

Now why didn't I think of that??? Oh wait I did! Guess what I found out, it DOES NOT WORK! :D The diameter of the .223 mag springs are too thick. We need the thinner AK 74 mag springs.

If you can find me these springs, please let me know as I have searched all the AK websites I know of (which is two).



C4

Robb Jensen
10-08-08, 18:49
Well, AK mag springs can be had, but why not just use the aftermarket heavy AR mag springs? Doesn't Wolf and S.A.W. market those items?

Wolf +10% springs fit in Lancer mags. 1/2 of my Lancers are set up this way.

I'm experimenting around with my 3gun rifle and running a 2.3oz buffer (a CAR buffer with 2 steel weights and 1 delrin weight). With the ultra light JP LMOS carrier I was worried that the bolt velocity might exceed the mags ability to keep up so I put the Wolf springs in them.

C4IGrant
10-08-08, 18:59
Wolf +10% springs fit in Lancer mags. 1/2 of my Lancers are set up this way.

I'm experimenting around with my 3gun rifle and running a 2.3oz buffer (a CAR buffer with 2 steel weights and 1 delrin weight). With the ultra light JP LMOS carrier I was worried that the bolt velocity might exceed the mags ability to keep up so I put the Wolf springs in them.


Yes, the wolf, ISMI and or any CS spring is goint to work in a .223 mags. NONE of these springs will work in the CProducts 5.45 mags though.



C4

IrishDevil
10-08-08, 19:00
I'm up to a total of 600 rds, 300 Wolf 60gr and 300 Bulgarian 53gr surplus. I've experienced no feed problems so far. The problem I do have is that the 10 black mags I ordered are not locking back the bolt, the original grey mag is though. I don't have any other buffers besides the CAR right now, I'm going to try an H and see what happens. Am I correct on stepping up the buffer weight? I've checked the action spring and it is within spec.

Jay Cunningham
10-08-08, 19:00
Now why didn't I think of that??? Oh wait I did! Guess what I found out, it DOES NOT WORK! :D The diameter of the .223 mag springs are too thick. We need the thinner AK 74 mag springs.

Well why didn't you say so Mr. Secretive!

On a related note, L-Plates and Ranger Plates don't work with the CProducts 5.45mm magazines either.


http://www.gunsprings.com/RifleShotgun/AK47_RsNF.html

Best I can do for springs.

Here are Bulgarian barrels if you feel like experimenting:

http://www.copesdistributing.net/product_info.php?cPath=32_34&products_id=913

C4IGrant
10-08-08, 19:04
I'm up to a total of 600 rds, 300 Wolf 60gr and 300 Bulgarian 53gr surplus. I've experienced no feed problems so far. The problem I do have is that the 10 black mags I ordered are not locking back the bolt, the original grey mag is though. I don't have any other buffers besides the CAR right now, I'm going to try an H and see what happens. Am I correct on stepping up the buffer weight? I've checked the action spring and it is within spec.


Knowing how over pressured these guns are it very well could be the buffer weight. I am more willing to bet though that it is the mag springs.


C4

C4IGrant
10-08-08, 19:08
Well why didn't you say so Mr. Secretive!

On a related note, L-Plates and Ranger Plates don't work with the CProducts 5.45mm magazines either.


http://www.gunsprings.com/RifleShotgun/AK47_RsNF.html

Best I can do for springs.

Here are Bulgarian barrels if you feel like experimenting:

http://www.copesdistributing.net/product_info.php?cPath=32_34&products_id=913


I do not think that the Ak47 springs will work (will double check tomorrow though).


C4

IrishDevil
10-08-08, 19:16
I know 47 springs won't fit in 74 mags, as I've tried it, I have a few 74 mags that need new springs.



I do not think that the Ak47 springs will work (will double check tomorrow though).


C4

Littlelebowski
10-08-08, 19:33
I'm at about 1500 rds through my rifle. Switching between the stock buffer and the H1 buffer made no difference, the rifle continues to run. If it ain't broke.....

C4IGrant
10-08-08, 20:46
I'm at about 1500 rds through my rifle. Switching between the stock buffer and the H1 buffer made no difference, the rifle continues to run. If it ain't broke.....

I think you might not understand what is going or or what I am saying. The weapon will lock back with an H3 buffer and an A2 ISMI CS BUFFER SPRING! Any .223 AR with a carbine gas system will NOT lock a bolt back in this configurantion and the 5.45 is at least 10,000 psi less than the .223! This is what we would call a "clue" that there is an issue here. So just to be clear, going from a car buffer to an H buffer will not change a single thing.

There is also an issue with heavy grain ammo and HP ammo in relation to the mags and M4 feed ramps.


C4

C4IGrant
10-08-08, 20:47
I know 47 springs won't fit in 74 mags, as I've tried it, I have a few 74 mags that need new springs.


This is the 10,000 dollar question. Where do we get Ak 74 mag springs??


C4

Jay Cunningham
10-08-08, 21:52
This is the 10,000 dollar question. Where do we get Ak 74 mag springs??


C4

You may have to talk to some Bulgarians.

Ron3
10-08-08, 23:08
I think you might not understand what is going or or what I am saying. The weapon will lock back with an H3 buffer and an A2 ISMI CS BUFFER SPRING! Any .223 AR with a carbine gas system will NOT lock a bolt back in this configurantion and the 5.45 is at least 10,000 psi less than the .223! This is what we would call a "clue" that there is an issue here. So just to be clear, going from a car buffer to an H buffer will not change a single thing.

There is also an issue with heavy grain ammo and HP ammo in relation to the mags and M4 feed ramps.
C4

Do 5.56 AR's normally work well with 50gr-70gr bullets of varying pressure? (Wolf is probobly weaker than military surplus 5.45) Might be asking too much of the DI system.

So if the gun is "overgassed" the concern is the bolt may break? Isn't it not uncommon for them to break anyway?

I think we should run these 5.45 rifles the way S&W says to and if there is a problem, it will show itself on it's own.

Ron3

Jay Cunningham
10-09-08, 08:20
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/gunpr0n002.jpg

Littlelebowski
10-09-08, 08:25
Now that's just spooky. Same sight, light, placement of sight, same VFG and placement of, same sling mount, all the same as me. I'd say you're a gentleman of good taste :D

Also have the same Magpul gear on the way. Different colors, thankfully.

Jay Cunningham
10-09-08, 08:28
Now that's just spooky. Same sight, light, placement of sight, same VFG and placement of, same sling mount, all the same as me. I'd say you're a gentleman of good taste :D

Also have the same Magpul gear on the way. Different colors, thankfully.

:cool:.

C4IGrant
10-09-08, 08:47
Do 5.56 AR's normally work well with 50gr-70gr bullets of varying pressure? (Wolf is probobly weaker than military surplus 5.45) Might be asking too much of the DI system.

So if the gun is "overgassed" the concern is the bolt may break? Isn't it not uncommon for them to break anyway?

I think we should run these 5.45 rifles the way S&W says to and if there is a problem, it will show itself on it's own.

Ron3


An AR with a 1/7 or 1/8 twist will shoot anything from 55gr to 77gr.

What Bill A. and I talked about is that we are concerned that the barrels might have a SAAMI chamber in them (too tight) and the heavier grain bullet are creating a pressure spike.

Bolts are wear items. Typically not till around 8,000-12,000rds will they break. If you have a gun with a lot of large pressure spikes, think of it as shooting a high pressure load every time you pull the trigger. How many of these will the bolt take is the question.

You can run your S&W AR anyway you want. I on the other hand would much prefer to make a gun work correctly and get the gas issue, mag issue and feed ramp issues all worked out. This is why I am talking to S&W right now.



C4

Cutaway
10-09-08, 17:46
What next?, An attachment for AK74 magazines?.

The 5.45 looks a useful piece of kit in the field, Especially to former warsaw pact countries who have recently joined NATO.

Ron3
10-09-08, 22:55
An AR with a 1/7 or 1/8 twist will shoot anything from 55gr to 77gr.

What Bill A. and I talked about is that we are concerned that the barrels might have a SAAMI chamber in them (too tight) and the heavier grain bullet are creating a pressure spike.

Bolts are wear items. Typically not till around 8,000-12,000rds will they break. If you have a gun with a lot of large pressure spikes, think of it as shooting a high pressure load every time you pull the trigger. How many of these will the bolt take is the question.

You can run your S&W AR anyway you want. I on the other hand would much prefer to make a gun work correctly and get the gas issue, mag issue and feed ramp issues all worked out. This is why I am talking to S&W right now.
C4

Is there a SAAMI spec for 5.45X39?
How much is a 5.45 bolt from S&W?
Are the extractor, firing pin, and other parts the same as S&W 5.56 rifles?
One would think S&W would have looked at the three most common weights and brands of 5.45 when they designed the rifle. (Surplus 53gr, russian commercial 60gr and 70gr)

I'm happy using the surplus, but I will get a few boxes of non-corrosive to try. I'd use that when I planned to fire just a few rounds without the trouble of cleaning the same or next day.

Ron3

Jay Cunningham
10-09-08, 23:45
One question Grant - do you think there is validity to the idea that the 5.45mm round has easier extraction due to its taper as compared to the straighter walled 5.56mm?

Jay Cunningham
10-09-08, 23:46
I'm happy using the surplus, but I will get a few boxes of non-corrosive to try. I'd use that when I planned to fire just a few rounds without the trouble of cleaning the same or next day.

Honestly I don't understand the point of shooting anything other than the corrosive surplus - the whole idea is how much cheaper the ammo is. If you're going to start shooting more expensive 5.45mm you may as well just shoot the 5.56mm Wolf...

C4IGrant
10-10-08, 08:28
Is there a SAAMI spec for 5.45X39?
How much is a 5.45 bolt from S&W?
Are the extractor, firing pin, and other parts the same as S&W 5.56 rifles?
One would think S&W would have looked at the three most common weights and brands of 5.45 when they designed the rifle. (Surplus 53gr, russian commercial 60gr and 70gr)

I'm happy using the surplus, but I will get a few boxes of non-corrosive to try. I'd use that when I planned to fire just a few rounds without the trouble of cleaning the same or next day.

Ron3

Yes on the saami spec.

No idea on the 5.45 bolt. I also do not think that S&W would even sell them.

To my knowledge, S&W used only Wolf ammo for testing.


C4

C4IGrant
10-10-08, 08:29
One question Grant - do you think there is validity to the idea that the 5.45mm round has easier extraction due to its taper as compared to the straighter walled 5.56mm?

Could very well be.


C4

mos2111
10-10-08, 11:32
There are a few aftermarket other maker brands of bolts out there. I think AA still has some 5.45 bolts. Kurt at Kurts Kustom Firearms will machine a 5.56 to 5.45 for something like 30 $. Before the S&W release there were reports of individuals using 6.8 bolts (like they were using 6.8 mags or mag followers). I have not gone this route, so I couldnt say for sure, but it might be worth a test.

Jay Cunningham
10-10-08, 16:20
Ok, so I ran into my first minor drama today. :D

I loaded up ten magazines and planned on shooting them back to back, with sixteen rounds loaded in number ten to get me up to the 1080 mark. No such luck.

Magazine 1: failed to lock back the bolt on the last round

Magazine 2: no issues

Magazine 3: failed to lock back the bolt on the last round

Magazine 4: shot one round resulting in a failure to extract due to a stuck case


Neither immediate nor remedial malfunction clearance fixed this so I mortared the gun - this did not work, the case was stuck and that was that. Like a moron I didn't have cleaning rod so I had to wait until I got home to knock the case out.

I will give everything a once-over and try the torture test again in a couple of days. I am not so concerned about one round getting stuck (could have been a way out of spec case) and I am not worried about the extractor since it has a black insert and o-ring.

Hopefully this info can help out guys like Grant and Robb with their operating theories.

85 total rounds shot for a running total of 897 rounds to date.

C4IGrant
10-10-08, 16:39
Ok, so I ran into my first minor drama today. :D

I loaded up ten magazines and planned on shooting them back to back, with sixteen rounds loaded in number ten to get me up to the 1080 mark. No such luck.

Magazine 1: failed to lock back the bolt on the last round

Magazine 2: no issues

Magazine 3: failed to lock back the bolt on the last round

Magazine 4: shot one round resulting in a failure to extract due to a stuck case


Neither immediate nor remedial malfunction clearance fixed this so I mortared the gun - this did not work, the case was stuck and that was that. Like a moron I didn't have cleaning rod so I had to wait until I got home to knock the case out.

I will give everything a once-over and try the torture test again in a couple of days. I am not so concerned about one round getting stuck (could have been a way out of spec case) and I am not worried about the extractor since it has a black insert and o-ring.

Hopefully this info can help out guys like Grant and Robb with their operating theories.

85 total rounds shot for a running total of 897 rounds to date.

Interesting. Since you have shot this ammo before and the bolt locked back, I am fairly certain that the mags springs are too weak to push up the follower.

The problem with combloc ammo is that it can be all over the place (which is most likely what you just saw).


C4

Jay Cunningham
10-10-08, 16:42
Not to mention that I just cracked into a new can so this is an entirely new lot mixed with the old lot.

But I would tend to agree that the two failures to lock back the bolt are most easily explained by the mag springs.

Hey, I'm trying to break stuff so these are good results!

I am still happy with my upper for a training gun. I also still plan to do the ten mag dump.

Jay Cunningham
10-10-08, 16:55
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/gunpr0n004.jpg

SuicideHz
10-10-08, 18:58
You may have to talk to some Bulgarians.

Well I work with one! She spent three weeks there this past summer...

Jay Cunningham
10-10-08, 19:09
Well I work with one! She spent three weeks there this past summer...

Is she hot?

:cool:

SuicideHz
10-10-08, 22:25
No Jay, but I'm hot enough to get her to do me a big favor ;)

Ron3
10-12-08, 12:16
Honestly I don't understand the point of shooting anything other than the corrosive surplus - the whole idea is how much cheaper the ammo is. If you're going to start shooting more expensive 5.45mm you may as well just shoot the 5.56mm Wolf...

Well lets say I take the gun out and only plan to fire 50 rounds or so. If it's corrosive, I have to clean it now, if it's non-corrosive, I don't.

But if I'm going to fire several hundred rounds I have to clean it anyway, so I may as well use cheaper corrosive stuff.

Ron3

Ron3
10-12-08, 12:17
I am still happy with my upper for a training gun. I also still plan to do the ten mag dump.


I'm looking forward to your mag dump test!

Frntsyt
10-13-08, 09:50
OK, I've read as many posts as a could and just purchased a complete S&W rifle in 5.45x39....
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I have as good of luck as some of you. It is literally still in the box and I need to give it the thorough once over and will post my impressions...

Littlelebowski
10-13-08, 10:18
I'm looking forward to your mag dump test!

Not the same but I did three and had no problems whatsoever.

bsf
10-13-08, 23:03
I will repost here my minimal experience to date here as this is a good info repository for this 5.45 offering.

Here is the relevant info for this function test.

S&W/Talo 16” barreled upper (1:8 twist) w/ stock f-height fsb
YHM lightweight free float 1-piece forearm
Aimpoint ML2 (4moa dot)
Larue cantilever mount
Stag lower + provided extra power hammer spring
C Product 5.45x39 & 5.56 30rd mags
’89 headstamp Bulgarian mil-surp ammo
Bla bla
Total number of rounds fired: 150
Malfunctions w/ 5.45 mag: none
Malfunctions w/ C Products 5.56 30rd mag: few

I did a quick zero at 50m and am very happy w/ the accuracy. It is far better than I need for a training dedicated setup. After a quick zero, I ran close quarter drills. I tried the C Products 5.56 mag loaded to 28, and the gun stove-piped (FTF) almost immediately. The setup was somewhat reliable w/ the 5.56 mag downloaded to ~12 or less. It ran perfectly w/ my only 5.45 mag. Not sure what else there is to say. 150rd is not a conclusive test, and accuracy at 50m is not necessarily indicative of what it would be at 200m. That being said, I am optimistic it will serve my needs admirably.

http://www1.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1fde2ca425eee8f395cb45287cecc0966g.jpg

Yes, the barrel length is wrong on my target.

http://www4.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/d9e2f01d9a2926563b08900fa7351ead6g.jpg

The question I have is whether the Hotshot 68gr, non-corrosive stuff at Century will run fine through this setup. IF I knew it did, I would buy a bunch of it and sell off some .223/5.56.

eta
Just ordered some of the HotShot 68gr from Century. Hopefully I will be able to post results next week.

87GN
10-14-08, 10:37
Tag...

My previously unreliable HK mags run GREAT in my 5.45 upper... :confused:

bsf
10-15-08, 19:47
Ran another 210 through my setup today using my only C Product 5.45 mag and 5 - C Product 5.56 30rd mags loaded w/ 10rd. The only malfunction was a ftf w/ one of the 5.56 mags; nose stuck on feed ramp. A slight tap on the forward assist chambered it. Once again I mostly ran drills inside of 25m, but I did take time to better zero it and fire one 5 – shot group at 100m: 2-15/16” (75mm). I would say that is pretty darn good for dirt cheap, 2 decade old mil-surp and a 4moa red-dot.

bsf
10-25-08, 00:06
Ran another 220rd of HotShot (Romanian) non-corrosive 68gr fmj and 30rd of Bulgarian mil-surp. Using 1 - 5.45 mag and 4 – 5.56 (loaded to 10rd) C Product mags I had zero malfunctions. I detected no keyholing w/ the HotShot through ~130rd at 50 & 100m. I only mention that because CIA has a keyholing disclaimer for the HotShot.

Ron3
10-25-08, 18:48
Thanks for the update.

I thought I read in some ad the Romy surplus ammo was all corrosive?

But you said 68gr it's probobly made for commercial sale.

Why do so many factories make heavier 5.45 bullets? Seems like 45-60grs would be best.

Ron3

Littlelebowski
10-30-08, 15:06
Well, I took a look at my basement last night after shooting and noticed two empty tins of 5.45. The only problems I've had with the gun are a couple of misfeeds with Lancer mags.

I've implemented my new cleaning regimen which is rinse barrel areas where offgassing occurs (probably the wrong term), flash hider, bore, gas tube, and chamber with Windex. After that, relube with Slip2000 EWL. It has worked for over a month now and the rifle is pretty much stored in the open air (cheap safe, no dessicant).

Have any of you other 5.45 owners noticed how much the barrel fouls? I just keep pushing patches of Montana Copper killer through and it never really seems to get clean unless I scrub with a nylon Copper Killer soaked brush. I only clean the bore every coupla hundred rounds or so, usually more. Thinking seriously about scrubbing it clean and hitting it with IOSSO bore paste (sorta like JB only milder).

Littlelebowski
10-30-08, 16:41
Crappy iPhone pics but you get the idea. Thanks to Travis and Chris for the Magpul goodness.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/photo-8.jpg

bsf
11-01-08, 18:22
Just finished up MDFI’s Carbine 1, taught by Steve Fisher. In addition to the 1 – C Product 5.45 mag I already had, I picked up 4 additional for this class. These 4 had the black, Teflon finish. I also attempted to use one Lancer 30rd mag. Loading the Lancer without an assist device was brutal. I stopped at ~22rd. It malfunctioned immediately w/ the follower hanging up. That was the only time I attempted to use anything but the 5 – 5.45 mags. In 524rd down range, I had one non-operator induced malfunction using the C Product 5.45 mags: a nose-up ftf. Flawless would have been better, but getting out of a full day carbine class w/ only ~$60 in carbine ammo cost kicks a**.

Special thanks goes to Steve Fisher, aka steve, for allowing me to take the class to T&E the new 5.45 setup for only the range fee and a couple lessons on picking up women. Thanks Steve.

eta
I used only Bulgarian mil-surp in the carbine.

eta
This puts the round count on this gun over 1k w/ only one legit malfunction w/ the C Products 5.45 mags.

Littlelebowski
11-01-08, 19:26
bsf, I haven't seen any of the issues you report with Lancer mags. I'll trade ya PMags for your Lancer mags :D

So, that's weird about our contrasting experiences. Were you using the cheap 53 grain stuff? I'm very happy with Lancer mags, my rifle runs them just find loaded to 30 rds and I have no problem loading them.

ABNAK
11-16-08, 20:05
Anyone having keyhole issues with 60gr Wolf?

decodeddiesel
11-16-08, 22:15
OK, I picked up a stripped lower with the interests of doing a cheap 5.45 build. Does anyone know anywhere that has a S&W 5.45 upper in stock?

ETA: Post 555, triple nickle. This was my company frequency in the 101st. I guess I'm a dork for mentioning it :D

cptx123
11-16-08, 23:00
Anyone having keyhole issues with 60gr Wolf?

Mine keyholes all brands of 60 grain ammo, 53 and 70 shoot fine.

ABNAK
11-17-08, 07:24
Mine keyholes all brands of 60 grain ammo, 53 and 70 shoot fine.


I believe you but that is crazy! WTF??? I ordered 1000rds of 60gr Wolf and it should be here any day now. If it keyholes it's going back to S&W until they get it right. :mad:

cptx123
11-17-08, 09:15
Yeah, not sure what the deal is. I pulled bullets on 60 and 53 grain no difference in length. When I shoot the 60's the round sounds very different when fired then the other weights. All my ammo now is the surplus so it does not bother me that much- this rifle is my range gun.

ABNAK
11-17-08, 10:39
I'm still waiting on the ammo to come, so I haven't shot the rifle yet. I did, however, call Smith&Wesson this morning to ask about it. I told him I've read mixed reports about keyholing---some do, some don't. The guy tried to blow it off, saying it's the ammo. I informed him that if mine keyholed after investing in 1000rds of Wolf, it was coming back. He said okay, but they'd have to look it over to see IF there was anything they could do.

About the ammo, he said "You get what you pay for". Now there isn't exactly "premium" ammo in 5.45x39. It's either surplus or Wolf/Barnaul/Hot Shot. The latter three could be considered "premium", if you will, as it's not surplus and is non-corrosive. That's about as "premium" as you get with 5.45x39. I reminded him after the ammo comment that it is WHAT THE GUN IS DESIGNED FOR, and it isn't like I can go buy Winchester or Hornady stuff. He said "Well yeah".

These MP15R's have a 1:8 twist, same as the AK74. If the AK74 doesn't keyhole with these loads (and I haven't heard of any except the latest Hot Shot stuff "possibly" doing it), then I would say that the answer lies in the rifle, not the ammo. See what I'm driving at here? If an AK74 can fire the stuff without keyholing but the AR version does it, that indicates to me a problem with the Smith&Wesson.

Jay Cunningham
11-17-08, 10:46
Actually I would say that if it was KH with the 53 gr. then you'd have a problem.

Otherwise, for whatever reason, the commerical 60 gr. Wolf stuff seems prone to do this. I have a 12.5" AK-105 that KH's Wolf but shoots 53 gr. all day long just fine. Go figure.

ABNAK
11-17-08, 10:53
Actually I would say that if it was KH with the 53 gr. then you'd have a problem.

Otherwise, for whatever reason, the commerical 60 gr. Wolf stuff seems prone to do this. I have a 12.5" AK-105 that KH's Wolf but shoots 53 gr. all day long just fine. Go figure.

Hmmm.....shoots my theory in the ass! (no pun intended)

So your AK keyholes with the stuff, huh? That sucks, 'cause the 60gr Wolf was the best of both worlds to me: still had the higher velocity (the 70gr Wolf stuff only runs like 2300-2400fps) and was non-corrosive. Seen a few posts on another board where someone cut open the 60gr'ers and they indeed have the air pocket, so another in the *potential* plus column.

God, the last thing I intended to do with this rifle was shoot corrosive ammo out of it. An AR is probably the worst system to do that with, given all the little nooks and crannies. Which is why I bought the Wolf........:confused:

Jay Cunningham
11-17-08, 11:18
Hmmm.....shoots my theory in the ass! (no pun intended)

So your AK keyholes with the stuff, huh? That sucks, 'cause the 60gr Wolf was the best of both worlds to me: still had the higher velocity (the 70gr Wolf stuff only runs like 2300-2400fps) and was non-corrosive. Seen a few posts on another board where someone cut open the 60gr'ers and they indeed have the air pocket, so another in the *potential* plus column.

God, the last thing I intended to do with this rifle was shoot corrosive ammo out of it. An AR is probably the worst system to do that with, given all the little nooks and crannies. Which is why I bought the Wolf........:confused:

OMG...

Okay, let's have a little talk here. First off, my 12.5" KH's the stuff... I have a full size AK-74M that shoots it just fine. I am assuming that there are differences in the barrel twist rates in the two, but I can't prove it. It just seems like everything I hear about KH involves Wolf ammo and not corrosive mil-surp.

Now, the "air pocket"... I am not convinced that the magical air pocket really contributes in any meaningful way to the effectiveness of the round. It MIGHT cause it to begin it's yaw cycle more quickly... MAYBE... refer to https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19937

Now, onto your statement about corrosive ammo... isn't the whole point of buying a 5.45mm AR upper to take advantage of the cheap ammo? Isn't the cheap ammo the corrosive milsurp? Also, what exactly makes you think that corrosive ammo is harder on an AR than on an AK or on any other firearm for that matter?

The AR is IMO very corrosion resistant and much easier to quickly clean than the AK.

Hope I don't sound like I'm picking on you, but I've responded to this same line of thinking elsewhere. Think about it for a moment and LMK if it makes sense.

ABNAK
11-17-08, 15:22
OMG...

Okay, let's have a little talk here. First off, my 12.5" KH's the stuff... I have a full size AK-74M that shoots it just fine. I am assuming that there are differences in the barrel twist rates in the two, but I can't prove it. It just seems like everything I hear about KH involves Wolf ammo and not corrosive mil-surp.

Now, the "air pocket"... I am not convinced that the magical air pocket really contributes in any meaningful way to the effectiveness of the round. It MIGHT cause it to begin it's yaw cycle more quickly... MAYBE... refer to https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19937

Now, onto your statement about corrosive ammo... isn't the whole point of buying a 5.45mm AR upper to take advantage of the cheap ammo? Isn't the cheap ammo the corrosive milsurp? Also, what exactly makes you think that corrosive ammo is harder on an AR than on an AK or on any other firearm for that matter?

ETA---I'm sure you know how to measure twist rate. If in doubt with the 12.5" AK and the full-sized AK74 just measure it.

The AR is IMO very corrosion resistant and much easier to quickly clean than the AK.

Hope I don't sound like I'm picking on you, but I've responded to this same line of thinking elsewhere. Think about it for a moment and LMK if it makes sense.

That is probably true about the earlier yaw with the air pocket. IIRC that is why is was designed with it.

I guess I should have clarified myself concerning the corrosive/non-corrosive thing. Wolf is about $40 per thousand more expensive than milsurp (this is a give-or-take figure; some places it's $50, others it's more like $30). Considering that *quality* 5.56 (not Wolf) is probably twice what the 5.45 non-corrosive stuff is the ~$40 difference in price for the 5.45 types is a no brainer. i.e. to me it's worth paying a little more for non-corrosive because it's still a hell of a lot cheaper than good 5.56. Of course as far as 5.45x39 goes, Wolf/Barnaul IS "good" stuff; it ain't like I can get Lake City 5.45 or something. Bottom line? Even shooting Wolf 5.45 it's still a bargain compared to 5.56.

Look Katar, I own both types of weapons (AR and AK) and have for years. I'm a clean-freak about my stuff. On an AK you clean the barrel, gas tube, bolt face, and piston. On an AR all the crap blows into the "guts". So it's not enough to just clean these BIG easy-to-access areas like on an AK. No, on an AR you've got the bolt and carrier with all the little nooks and crannies, the inside of the upper receiver, and the LOWER with all the trigger components. If you're smart you'll also swab the gas tube. Now, when normally cleaning an AR I skip the lower except for a quick wipedown. With corrosive fodder you can't get away with that. So in addition to the water/ammonia/Ballistol (or whatever) pre-clean you have to do with corrosive ammo, now I get to do the lower with all it's trigger components too. THEN the normal cleaning regimen.

Again, even shooting non-corrosive Wolf or Barnaul at a few bucks more than milsurp, the 5.45 S&W AR is STILL a deal to me.

Well, except for this whole keyhole thing. Oh, right before I typed this UPS dropped off my 1000rds! :eek:



ETA---I'm sure you know how to measure barrel twist. If in doubt between the 12.5" AK and the full-sized AK74 just measure it.

krichbaum
11-18-08, 05:28
I've been shooting corrosive ammo through my ak's for a year and a half now. All I do is make sure to thoroughly rinse everything with HOT water as soon as I get home from shooting. Then clean normally. Doesn't really take that long on the AK and so far I've had no issues as a result of my approach.

What will change if I get one of these 5.45 AR uppers and shoot corrosive ammo through it? The upper seems like no big deal. I'll run hot water over and through everything and do a quick normal cleaning. But, I'm a little worried about the lower. I expect to rinse everything down with water, but is there any problem resulting from that? Lot's of small parts and stuff in the lower make it hard to get all the water out without disassembly. Maybe spray it with wd40 then come back later and apply gun lube of choice where needed? I don't plan to have a dedicated lower for shooting this stuff. Bad idea?

Just looking for some input on this before ordering one of these uppers.

rob_s
11-18-08, 05:58
Wolf is about $40 per thousand more expensive than milsurp (this is a give-or-take figure; some places it's $50, others it's more like $30). Considering that *quality* 5.56 (not Wolf) is probably twice what the 5.45 non-corrosive stuff is the ~$40 difference in price for the 5.45 types is a no brainer. i.e. to me it's worth paying a little more for non-corrosive because it's still a hell of a lot cheaper than good 5.56. Of course as far as 5.45x39 goes, Wolf/Barnaul IS "good" stuff; it ain't like I can get Lake City 5.45 or something. Bottom line? Even shooting Wolf 5.45 it's still a bargain compared to 5.56.


Where is this? Not doubting you, but I'm not seeing the $170/k Wolf 5.45 anywhere ($130 for corrosive from AIM (http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/5_45x39.html) +$40=$170)

Littlelebowski
11-18-08, 06:53
I've been shooting corrosive ammo through my ak's for a year and a half now. All I do is make sure to thoroughly rinse everything with HOT water as soon as I get home from shooting. Then clean normally. Doesn't really take that long on the AK and so far I've had no issues as a result of my approach.

What will change if I get one of these 5.45 AR uppers and shoot corrosive ammo through it? The upper seems like no big deal. I'll run hot water over and through everything and do a quick normal cleaning. But, I'm a little worried about the lower. I expect to rinse everything down with water, but is there any problem resulting from that? Lot's of small parts and stuff in the lower make it hard to get all the water out without disassembly. Maybe spray it with wd40 then come back later and apply gun lube of choice where needed? I don't plan to have a dedicated lower for shooting this stuff. Bad idea?

Just looking for some input on this before ordering one of these uppers.

I use Windex. Just rinse it, let it dry, relube. May not be what everybody else is doing but it works for me. Be sure to break down the BCG and rinse the entire thing and relube right away along with getting the gas tube, chamber, and barrel rinsed. I never see any corrosion in my lower and usually rinse it every other time.

ABNAK
11-18-08, 08:22
Where is this? Not doubting you, but I'm not seeing the $170/k Wolf 5.45 anywhere ($130 for corrosive from AIM (http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/5_45x39.html) +$40=$170)

Sportsman's guide is where I ordered mine from. It was $189 for 1000rds of 60gr Wolf (Buyer's Club member) before shipping. I said the $40 was a give-or-take figure. Mine would've been $59 over a tin of the corrosive.

J&G has Wolf listed (not sure of the bullet weight) for $189, Bulgy surplus for $151. That's a $38 difference.

The way I look at it, spread out over 1000rds that $40-$60 difference is worth it to me for being able to shoot non-corrosive ammo and it is STILL way better than decent 5.56mm.

rob_s
11-18-08, 08:26
Sportsman's guide is where I ordered mine from. It was $189 for 1000rds of 60gr Wolf (Buyer's Club member) before shipping. I said the $40 was a give-or-take figure. Mine would've been $59 over a tin of the corrosive.

J&G has Wolf listed (not sure of the bullet weight) for $189, Bulgy surplus for $151. That's a $38 difference.

I'll have to check those out. I'm not as concerned with a "all at the same dealer" price comparison as I am with the lowest available price for each.

If the non-corrosive could get to my door for under $200 shipped I would be ECSTATIC, but I don't think that's happening.


IIRC, the $130/k from AIM came out to about $155 shipped when I tried it last time. And even that's gone up from the $119 it was just a month or two ago (and it's not even in stock at AIM).

Prices a month ago aren't prices today, and the gap seems to be widening between the two types of ammo.

ABNAK
11-18-08, 09:11
I'll have to check those out. I'm not as concerned with a "all at the same dealer" price comparison as I am with the lowest available price for each.

If the non-corrosive could get to my door for under $200 shipped I would be ECSTATIC, but I don't think that's happening.


IIRC, the $130/k from AIM came out to about $155 shipped when I tried it last time. And even that's gone up from the $119 it was just a month or two ago (and it's not even in stock at AIM).

Prices a month ago aren't prices today, and the gap seems to be widening between the two types of ammo.


The total for my 1000rds of 60gr Wolf was $207 shipped to my door. Not UNDER $200, but just a hair over!

cptx123
11-18-08, 09:21
I avoid windex because I thought ammonia is bad for aluminum. I use a 5 gal bucket with hot water and soap, then I dunk my lower in it- then I hose it down with wd40 and then brake cleaner.

bsf
11-18-08, 18:05
Lots of hot water and soap has worked for me so far. Just got back from troubleshooting some optics issues w/ mine, using Bulgarian mil-surp. Tonight wishful thinking will have to be good enough because I am heading out again and will be hunting in the morning. I hope I do not return to only find a pile of corrosion. :D

Boss Hogg
11-23-08, 19:47
I received mine from AIM a few days ago. The quality is impressive (with the exception of the C Products mag- have Pmags made us mag snobs???). I was pleasantly surprised to see that S&W put an O-ring on the extractor spring.

Hope to shoot it later this week.

Jay Cunningham
11-23-08, 20:09
I received mine from AIM a few days ago. The quality is impressive (with the exception of the C Products mag- have Pmags made us mag snobs???). I was pleasantly surprised to see that S&W put an O-ring on the extractor spring.

Hope to shoot it later this week.

Not really. The CProducts have the correct body geometry, but I wish the feed lips were more, ummm... substantial and that they had stronger springs and an anti-tilt follower.

teufeldog
12-02-08, 10:38
I gather from all the posts on this thread that everyone is using this S&W as a range/training weapon and not for personal defense. Is that an accurate assumption? What hinders you from using it as your personal defense weapon? Ammo? Reliability? Curious.

Jay Cunningham
12-02-08, 11:38
I gather from all the posts on this thread that everyone is using this S&W as a range/training weapon and not for personal defense. Is that an accurate assumption? What hinders you from using it as your personal defense weapon? Ammo? Reliability? Curious.

Right now it would be ammunition terminal performance and reliability. I have been talking with some people and there are a few reliability improvements possible. Beyond that I will use the 5.45mm round if I don't have access to 5.56mm.

Littlelebowski
12-02-08, 13:03
I'd have no concerns using it for self defense only because of I've seen it do to rabbits and assorted targets.

Jay Cunningham
12-02-08, 13:14
Rabbits?

Anyway check out a couple of DocGKR's threads in his terminal ballistics forum. If I had to use it that's fine but it would never be my first choice. That "poison bullet" business is all guff.

Littlelebowski
12-02-08, 13:15
I never said it was the end all to be all but I reckon a couple of shots from the 5.45 will do just fine.

Jay Cunningham
12-02-08, 13:19
I never said it was the end all to be all but I reckon a couple of shots from the 5.45 will do just fine.

I could shoot you in the eye with a .22lr and you'd drop instantly from CNS shutdown. So? Shot placement is the most important and if you put three rounds of 5.45mm into the upper thoracic of a threat they are probably in for a bad time. But the round simply is not as effective as some of the 5.56mm varieties. It also is much more likely to sail through building walls.

Littlelebowski
12-02-08, 13:25
I don't know how .22 LR got into this discussion but I'm not arguing your point. I didn't say it was my first choice for home defense. My point is that I would not feel outgunned holding my 5.45. I am well versed in shot placement and never once said that shot placement doesn't matter.

Jay Cunningham
12-02-08, 13:31
You're right then, I have no idea what we're talking about.

Ron3
12-02-08, 15:08
I gather from all the posts on this thread that everyone is using this S&W as a range/training weapon and not for personal defense. Is that an accurate assumption? What hinders you from using it as your personal defense weapon? Ammo? Reliability? Curious.

Mine is kept ready for potential SD use. No reason not to.

The military 5.45 bullets tumble early and tear meat up. As for penetration, it can be good or bad depending on the scenario.

The soviets designed a good bullet and caliber. And S&W built a good rifle.

Road Warrior
12-02-08, 16:53
Interesting read

Obiwan
12-02-08, 19:23
I use Slip2000

It cuts the corrosive salts and saves you a step;)

Littlelebowski
12-02-08, 19:30
I use Slip2000

It cuts the corrosive salts and saves you a step;)

It's cheaper for me to rinse with Windex. Also reaches into nook and crannies like the chamber. During a campout in PA, I tried just slathering extra Slip2K on and the rifle got quite a bit of corrosion.

Failure2Stop
12-03-08, 04:02
You're right then, I have no idea what we're talking about.

I think it's that knee-jerk reation to a statement that is usually made by the uninformed that we are constantly compelled to fight (not at all implying that littlelebowski is uninformed). I have done it more than once ;), and almost did it in response to Ron3 above.

Jay Cunningham
12-03-08, 06:10
I use Slip2000

It cuts the corrosive salts and saves you a step;)

Are you sure this product cuts corrosive salts?

Jay Cunningham
12-03-08, 06:11
I think it's that knee-jerk reation to a statement that is usually made by the uninformed that we are constantly compelled to fight (not at all implying that littlelebowski is uninformed). I have done it more than once ;), and almost did it in response to Ron3 above.

Yes, you are correct with both statements.

TY44934
12-03-08, 09:01
Are you sure this product cuts corrosive salts?


Corrosive ammo:

Many of you are making this more difficult that it needs to be.

Old milsurp is certainly corrosive. New Wolf is not corrosive.

To eliminate about 90% of the bad effects of shooting corrosive, just fire 3 to 5 rounds of non-corrosive Wolf ammo at the end of your range session.

Does that eliminate the need for all cleaning? No, but it does MOST of the cleaning work for you.

Don't take my word for it, go ask on one of the MilSurp boards; those guys have been using this trick for many years and they shoot a lot of corrosive.

Jay Cunningham
12-03-08, 09:08
The gun needs cleaned after you shoot corrosive ammo through it. The only "trick" I am buying into is a little elbow grease.

Littlelebowski
12-03-08, 09:16
Corrosive ammo:

Many of you are making this more difficult that it needs to be.

Old milsurp is certainly corrosive. New Wolf is not corrosive.

To eliminate about 90% of the bad effects of shooting corrosive, just fire 3 to 5 rounds of non-corrosive Wolf ammo at the end of your range session.

Does that eliminate the need for all cleaning? No, but it does MOST of the cleaning work for you.

Don't take my word for it, go ask on one of the MilSurp boards; those guys have been using this trick for many years and they shoot a lot of corrosive.

That might work for the gas tube and barrel but it certainly won't clean what I've seen in the BCG and chamber. These ARs are a different animal than the old milsurp guns.

shooter521
12-03-08, 09:26
It's cheaper for me to rinse with Windex. Also reaches into nook and crannies like the chamber. During a campout in PA, I tried just slathering extra Slip2K on and the rifle got quite a bit of corrosion.

I'm not Obiwan, but he might have been referring to the SLIP2000 #725 Gun Cleaner rather than the lube. #725 is a water-based spray-on product, and I've had excellent results just cleaning with it as normal, after shooting corrosive ammo. No corrosion, as long as I remember to clean in the "tricky" places (inside the gas block and under/inside the muzzle device on my AK, for instance).

Obiwan
12-03-08, 09:37
Are you sure this product cuts corrosive salts?


I have been told directly by the manufacturer that it does

And I have used it for two years with zero corrosion issues though thousands of rounds of corrosive ammo

So yeah....I am pretty sure:D

And no, I am referring to the lube

Here is the message (from April 2006)

Hi Bill,

Yes it does neutralize and dissolve the salts formed by the corrosive ammo.
Slip 2000

Bill writes:

> Just wondering if your gun lubricant dissolves the salts in Corr Ammo???
>
> I have been using windex (followed by Slip2000) and was wondering if I could
> skip a step?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill

Jay Cunningham
12-03-08, 09:38
I have been told directly by the manufacturer that it does

And I have used it for two years with zero corrosion issues though thousands of rounds of corrosive ammo

So yeah....I am pretty sure:D

The lube? Interesting.

rob_s
12-03-08, 10:43
That is interesting. You'd think they'd really hype that fact up in the marketing.

this product (http://www.slip2000.com/allconditionslube.html) cuts the corrosion?

http://www.slip2000.com/media/lubricant/gunlube.jpg

Obiwan
12-03-08, 12:17
That is interesting. You'd think they'd really hype that fact up in the marketing.

this product (http://www.slip2000.com/allconditionslube.html) cuts the corrosion?

http://www.slip2000.com/media/lubricant/gunlube.jpg

As you can see in the emails

That is what they told me

And my experience bears it out

Littlelebowski
12-03-08, 12:28
Obiwan, not trying to argue for argument's sake but what platform using corrosive ammo do you have this experience on? Slathering more Slip2K very definitely did not work for me on a 5.45 AR in a humid environment over the course of 2 days of shooting.

Obiwan
12-03-08, 15:30
No problem LL

I have used it on AK's shooting corrosive ammo (7.62 and 5.45)

Misc milsurps shooting corrosive .303, 8mm, 7.62x54, 7.62x25 and probably some I am forgetting:D

I stopped using windex 2 years ago and I have had zero corrosion simply by cleaning with slip2000

But I may not be understanding your question

Did you get rust from corrosive primers on your AR???

Littlelebowski
12-03-08, 18:20
I have pits on my bolt. I have orange streaks in my chamber (near "star" area). I humbly submit that because of direct impingement that an AR is far more susceptible to corrosion from the corrosive salts than the weapons you listed. My brother has 2 AK74s and never has to clean them. Slip2k did not in anyway obviate the need to seriously rinse my 5.45 AR while shooting in VA and PA.

Obiwan
12-03-08, 20:50
Wow...I was right...I did not understand the question

Maybe the difference is that I clean my rifles with it, rather than just lubing them

I am scrubbing them (somewhat, I am not very anal) rather than just flooding them. So maybe it works because the lube is not just running over the salts, it is being scrubbed off

Other than that I got nuthin:confused:

I have seen pics on this very site of an AK completely rusted out after only a couple of days with no attention.

I cannot imagine how I have avoided similar problems if the stuff doesn't work

I put a lot of corrosive rounds downrange every year and I have had zero issues

Littlelebowski
12-03-08, 21:40
That sounds expensive. My method of rinsing with Windex and just adding more lube seems cheaper, easier, and faster plus it's guaranteed to hit those nooks and crannies. I'm quite sure my situation call for more immediate maintenance because of the humidity out here.

Obiwan
12-04-08, 07:48
Not really any more expensive than anyone else that cleans them after use:D

Which I don't always do except with corrosive ammo

But you may be onto something with the humidity. Here in the high desert we got no humidity;)

I have left weapons overnite with no rusting, but I pulled a patch with slip2000 through the barrel

Here is the thread I was talking about- turns out he left it for 3 weeks

I have never had any issues like these

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=968&highlight=corrosive

sdacbob
12-07-08, 15:45
I'm about to take the plunge. Only question I have is how do you go about replacing the hammer spring and will that have any effect on 5.56 ammo when I swap the upper out?

bsf
12-07-08, 17:54
I'm about to take the plunge. Only question I have is how do you go about replacing the hammer spring
Directions are inlcuded w/ the S&W upper. Very simple. Will need a punch and hammer.


and will that have any effect on 5.56 ammo when I swap the upper out?
No. Trigger pull will be heavier, though.

ABNAK
12-18-08, 19:26
Finally got around to firing mine. I have 1000rds of Wolf 60gr, which I had heard was a candidate for keyholing.

Weather was shitty so I only fired 50rds for zero and function check then split. However, no malfunctions. I sighted it in at 50yds (IBSZ) and no keyholing---at that range anyways. I fired the rest at debris on the 100yd berm and wasn't too bad in windy conditions (probably more me than the rifle). From the groups at 50yds while sighting it in I'd guesstimate 3 MOA. Not a tackdriver but definitely Minute-of-Man!

YMMV.

sdacbob
12-19-08, 06:36
Mine arrived by UPS the other day. Just waiting for some decent weather to get to the range now. Still have 4 more C-Products on backorder somewhere too.

ABNAK
12-27-08, 17:04
Bought another 1K of the Wolf 60gr the other day. Thinking about a carbine class this spring and I suppose this is the weapon I will use. I'll save my good 5.56 stuff (IMI, LC, Hornady TAP, Mk262) for a "rainy day".

Might even consider another 1K before the Messiah bans ammo imports (no legislation needs to be passed; EO)

Littlelebowski
01-05-09, 11:45
Got about 5 rounds that keyholed from the 53gr corrosive stuff. This was from a range outing where I fired a little over 300 rds. Had 3 malfunctions that I attribute to the 5.56 Lancer mags I was using.

I was very surprised about the keyholing - never seen that before out of this rifle.

oopsido
01-08-09, 14:50
Hello Guys! Sorry about my question but this is my first AR and im very happy and addictive to it:D. I read about the all cleaning regimen of these corrosive ammo and im doing it through your suggestions and it really works....THANK YOU ALL!!:D. Now, My (naive) question is what if (GOD forbid) everything went awry..all hell break loose scenario and this is my SHTF rifle, what would i do to clean this of corrosive stuff? given that no hot/boiling water on hand on the field? Your suggestion/s would be greatly appreciated. Im just trying to be prepared..Thank you all in advance.


Here is my baby!:)

Littlelebowski
01-08-09, 15:31
Rinse it with water, hot or cold.

stickM
01-10-09, 23:09
We put 75 rds of 60 gr Wolf through my M&P15R yesterday with no feed problems and no keyholing. It was a totally satisfying first outing with an AR for my son and me. The only negative was the Troy BUIS vibrated loose...so gotta get some Loctite.