View Full Version : increased accuracy with increased ROF.
I was at the range saturday, and found taking time for a "perfect" shot produced larger groups than quickly getting on target verifying sight picture and pressing the trigger.
I've also noticed this with archery, and resting my arms on a rest produce horrible groups with a handgun.
Why? Anyone else notice this or does anyone have a theory why?
ohsheepdog
02-09-16, 11:21
Because we over think it and become fatigued the longer we hold waiting for that perfect shot.
I've found when I'm the most accurate & quickest is when I prep the physical & mental before I bring it on target & just shoot.
Because we over think it and become fatigued the longer we hold waiting for that perfect shot.
I've found when I'm the most accurate & quickest is when I prep the physical & mental before I bring it on target & just shoot.
Pretty much this. I often do my best when practicing shot cadences.
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For me I shoot the best after a short 10-50 round warmup and when fatigue sets in the group will open up. Which one did you do first?
Thanks guys, thought I was the only one.
I shot some close stuff first.
I didn't spend too much time between shots, but I was trying to make sure the sight lineup was perfect.
1-1.5 sec splits seemed to produce the best results.
ohsheepdog
02-09-16, 15:58
You'll probably find that if you concentrate on that perfect sight alignment for too long your gun almost does a sideways figure 8 in cadence with your breathing. Then when you go to pressl the trigger you're actually jerking the shot because you're anticipating. Get a good sight alignment, start your trigger press and don't stop a smooth follow through till the shot breaks. It may not always be a surprise when it does but it will definitely increase your accuracy if you use that technique.
Focusing on getting perfection is what does it. You obsess until you mentally fatigue. When you have a specific target/task (hunting or something) it's different.
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Alright makes sense. I've started to notice this and last range session really brought it out. I got frustrated by a large group at 25 yds, put 5 more on target as I got acceptable sight picture and that cut my group size in half.
Good to know I'm not crazy.
Alright makes sense. I've started to notice this and last range session really brought it out. I got frustrated by a large group at 25 yds, put 5 more on target as I got acceptable sight picture and that cut my group size in half.
Good to know I'm not crazy.
Give yourself a purpose other than getting perfect bullsies. Things like dot drills and various skill drills will give you much more value and are much funer anyways. Travis haley has a dot drill that I found to be very useful. He has it on YouTube. It's something like venti 100 or something. Another thing that I found to help is load one round at a time and get the best ballsy I can. Although your shooting a group, it turns it into a per shot exercise and gets to not focus on making a perfect group, just good shots.
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"The conscious mind harbors self-doubt. The subconscious is infallible."
...
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"The conscious mind harbors self-doubt. The subconscious is infallible."
...
Living proof, I suppose.
Blasty, thanks for the 1rd at a time idea. I do drills quite a bit, but I havnt shot for a while and wanted some accuracy work after cadence shooting. I like to keep my skills up to the point I can make a heads shot on demand at 25yds.
You'll probably find that if you concentrate on that perfect sight alignment for too long your gun almost does a sideways figure 8 in cadence with your breathing. Then when you go to pressl the trigger you're actually jerking the shot because you're anticipating. Get a good sight alignment, start your trigger press and don't stop a smooth follow through till the shot breaks. It may not always be a surprise when it does but it will definitely increase your accuracy if you use that technique.
There is a condition in bullseye shooting called chicken finger. It's what happens when you're afraid to break the shot because the sight picture isn't perfect. Perfect is the enemy of good enough. You end up jerking the trigger when you see the sights hit that perfect alignment and that throws the shot. Good target shooters learn to keep the trigger moving while keeping the sights on target. The result of all this is a good group.
My mantra for accurate shooting is: front sight, pull. This emphasis prevents my praying over a the sight picture and allows me to use area aiming whereby the trigger breaks within an area that includes the aiming point--the intent being a small area. Aiming technique(any kind)must employ effort to prevent barrel from turning side to side or up and down as if it were on a swivel. The idea is only a dead man can hold a handgun perfectly still, and movement must occur with the sights aligned. The intent is to eliminate the fore mentioned "swivel" movement. So, now the shooter is aiming and firing into an area hopefully defined by the bulls eye. It works.
If the shooter is firing one shot and then looking to see where he hit, and then firing another shot and looking....., then he is wasting his time and anybody else's who might be instructing.
By perfect sight picture, I don't mean on target, just spending too much time on front/rear sight alignment. It seems I'm getting good alignment naturally and trying too hard with slow fire.
I think the fuzzy rear is freaking me out.
By perfect sight picture, I don't mean on target, just spending too much time on front/rear sight alignment. It seems I'm getting good alignment naturally and trying too hard with slow fire.
I think the fuzzy rear is freaking me out.
What you're experiencing is very common. Many shooters get better scores shooting rapid fire (10 seconds), rather than timed fire (20 seconds). In the rapids you don't have time to be perfect, you have to get your shots off or eat points. I don't know if you know who David Tubb is he's an eleven time national high power rifle champion. Tubb wrote that when shooting standing slow fire he breaks a shot in four to six seconds, or he puts the rifle down. This is similar to holding a pistol and waiting for that perfect moment. If it doesn't happen quickly, it almost always leads to a thrown shot.
A person has to establish goals. What size groups do you want to fire and at what distance? If a person just wants to pound out shots at the A Zone on an IDPA target at 10 meters and that is their goal, I think they are not realizing the full potential of the shooter and equipment.
G. David Tubb's comment about holding his rifle on target for 6 seconds and firing during competition is on point, but people who shoot at that level train by holding much longer before firing the shot during a live fire or dry fire practice session. To shoot precisely it takes a while to develop the mental discipline and the ability to manipulate your body to shoot tight groups consistently. To understand sight wobble, how to minimize it and how to work with it takes time. Consistent trigger manipulation takes time as well.
When I was still teaching pistol courses, one of the drills we ran was to present the pistol to the target, hold for 60 seconds, then shoot a black target paster at 7 yards. After the shot breaks you have to follow through for 15 seconds before relaxing and holstering the pistol. The next minute is spent reflecting on the shot process while resting. The drill is run 10 times for a total of 10 shots in roughly 30 minutes. If facilities accommodated it, we would edge pieces of cardboard at 7 yards and ask people to shoot until they cut the cardboard in half. It was not uncommon for some people to cut cardboard in half with 3 or fewer shots.
Another drill we used to grow accustomed to hitting moving targets is to set up 5 targets left to right at 7 yards at whatever distances between the targets you can establish at your shooting facility. I prefer 3 feet between each target, but if you are severely limited at your facility, you can print small circles on an 8 x 11 sheet of paper and staple it to the backboard with the circles left to right. During the drill You present the pistol and fire at each circle, left to right, then right to left. The sequence is fire a good shot, move your eyes to the next dot while managing recoil, move the front sight to the next dot, engage, then repeat. The pace is one shot every 10 seconds, then one shot every 5 seconds, then as fast as you can get good hits. After 100 rounds a drill is run where everyone shoots a little faster than they can get good hits, then back their speed off a notch at a time until they get good hits quickly. Think precision, speed, then precision at speed.
I don't what physical condition you are in, but a good physical fitness program will help anyone hold a pistol presented to the target longer and help with the mental discipline necessary to focus longer. When you see a gray haired old man who appears to be in average physical condition holding on target longer and shooting incredibly tight groups, most likely they were physically fit when they developed their pistol skills and they are compensating for loss of physical prowess with mental discipline and experience.
If an average person fires 250-300 rounds in a practice session, they should be mentally and physically tired.
The opportunity to push yourself physically and mentally is part of what makes the shooting sports enjoyable.
This is great info.
I do shoot for certain time / accuracy. For the op question, I was referring to 25yds, b-8 target, going for high score/tightest group possible. I'm ussually 4-5", trying too hard opened that up to about 7".
I'm in decent shape, not much cardio, but I mix it in.
This is great info.
I do shoot for certain time / accuracy. For the op question, I was referring to 25yds, b-8 target, going for high score/tightest group possible. I'm ussually 4-5", trying too hard opened that up to about 7".
I'm in decent shape, not much cardio, but I mix it in.
When the sight alignment and sight picture looks right, take the shot. If it does not look right after several seconds, don't force the shot. Relax, slow your breathing, build your shooting position, then try again.
jjackson@tierthreetac
02-17-16, 17:19
A person has to establish goals. What size groups do you want to fire and at what distance? If a person just wants to pound out shots at the A Zone on an IDPA target at 10 meters and that is their goal, I think they are not realizing the full potential of the shooter and equipment.
G. David Tubb's comment about holding his rifle on target for 6 seconds and firing during competition is on point, but people who shoot at that level train by holding much longer before firing the shot during a live fire or dry fire practice session. To shoot precisely it takes a while to develop the mental discipline and the ability to manipulate your body to shoot tight groups consistently. To understand sight wobble, how to minimize it and how to work with it takes time. Consistent trigger manipulation takes time as well.
When I was still teaching pistol courses, one of the drills we ran was to present the pistol to the target, hold for 60 seconds, then shoot a black target paster at 7 yards. After the shot breaks you have to follow through for 15 seconds before relaxing and holstering the pistol. The next minute is spent reflecting on the shot process while resting. The drill is run 10 times for a total of 10 shots in roughly 30 minutes. If facilities accommodated it, we would edge pieces of cardboard at 7 yards and ask people to shoot until they cut the cardboard in half. It was not uncommon for some people to cut cardboard in half with 3 or fewer shots.
Another drill we used to grow accustomed to hitting moving targets is to set up 5 targets left to right at 7 yards at whatever distances between the targets you can establish at your shooting facility. I prefer 3 feet between each target, but if you are severely limited at your facility, you can print small circles on an 8 x 11 sheet of paper and staple it to the backboard with the circles left to right. During the drill You present the pistol and fire at each circle, left to right, then right to left. The sequence is fire a good shot, move your eyes to the next dot while managing recoil, move the front sight to the next dot, engage, then repeat. The pace is one shot every 10 seconds, then one shot every 5 seconds, then as fast as you can get good hits. After 100 rounds a drill is run where everyone shoots a little faster than they can get good hits, then back their speed off a notch at a time until they get good hits quickly. Think precision, speed, then precision at speed.
I don't what physical condition you are in, but a good physical fitness program will help anyone hold a pistol presented to the target longer and help with the mental discipline necessary to focus longer. When you see a gray haired old man who appears to be in average physical condition holding on target longer and shooting incredibly tight groups, most likely they were physically fit when they developed their pistol skills and they are compensating for loss of physical prowess with mental discipline and experience.
If an average person fires 250-300 rounds in a practice session, they should be mentally and physically tired.
The opportunity to push yourself physically and mentally is part of what makes the shooting sports enjoyable.
Awesome post. It jibes up pretty well with a post I just wrote about recent scientific research on pistol shooting. http://www.tierthreetactical.com/3-scientifically-proven-methods-to-improve-pistol-shooting/
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