View Full Version : Q for the MA/MMA/BJJ practitioners
Folks, I'm (finally!) making some progress on part III of my Vacation Gone South (http://www.amazon.com/VACATION-GONE-SOUTH-Will-Brink-ebook/dp/B00VPC7PPK/) series and have a Q. I'm looking for a realistic approach for taking someone down who is standing over you. That is, you get knocked down, and rather than stand back up to face an obviously superior striker/boxer, you decide it's best to take them to the ground.
If you can give some explanation of the approach, the name (if it has one), and or any examples (vid, etc) of the move, that would be appreciated so I can accurately and adequately explain it to readers. It should be a move one could actually use in a fight, vs say the ring or hollywood nonsense.
If you feel no such move exists that could be used under such real world conditions, that's fine too, but please give some thoughts/explanation. There's obviously many an MA move that is applicable to the dojo, ring, etc not applicable to street fights.
I'm happy to give more context to it if that helps as I know context often the deciding factor to many choices made in a violent confrontation.
Thanx :cool:
ramairthree
02-10-16, 10:33
Well,
If your guy is flat on his back and the guy standing over him is one foot each side of him feet about diaphragm level,
The bad guy could say-
Time to die
And your guy could say
I'd rather just keep on rock in' and Rollin'
As he hits him in the leg with a rock and does the roll turn to knock him over,
Preferably a cliff so we can get a Wilhelm scream
And a die hard finale like scene of him falling when they make the book a movie.
I'm not like an operator but as a young rookie lad I came real close to getting my ass beat. Dude was cocky strong and I got knocked backwards and on my narrow ass in a kitchen (a place you don't want to fight) well he was about to get on top of me and I planted a boot in his balls as hard as I possibly could.
This was all happening simultaneously and he fell down screaming. I probably sounded like a Scandinavian metal singer in the radio. And I got on him and started torquing his arm to get him cuffed. When he puked, I knew the fight was over so I let him lay there on his side. I was on my knees near his neckbase until backup came then I said "Y'all just put him in a car until EMS checks him out." So I had to sit down, smoke a cigarette, and catch my breath.
All because of "warrants and shit"
Tldr, kick em in the nards.
Inkslinger
02-10-16, 10:51
If you can get to your hands and knees, a double leg take down can work pretty well.
Here's a technique from your back.
http://youtu.be/quVc8zso1_M
I'm not like an operator but as a young rookie lad I came real close to getting my ass beat. Dude was cocky strong and I got knocked backwards and on my narrow ass in a kitchen (a place you don't want to fight) well he was about to get on top of me and I planted a boot in his balls as hard as I possibly could.
This was all happening simultaneously and he fell down screaming. I probably sounded like a Scandinavian metal singer in the radio. And I got on him and started torquing his arm to get him cuffed. When he puked, I knew the fight was over so I let him lay there on his side. I was on my knees near his neckbase until backup came then I said "Y'all just put him in a car until EMS checks him out." So I had to sit down, smoke a cigarette, and catch my breath.
All because of "warrants and shit"
Tldr, kick em in the nards.
Boot to the nards, a classic! Thanx.
sniperfrog
02-10-16, 10:57
BJJ has several techniques for this that will work in a real fight. However, trying to describe how to do them in text is not that easy. There are little details to everything that can make a big difference. You can google "sweeping a standing opponent in Bjj" and there will be a bunch of videos. A lot of techniques in BJJ don't have names so some instructors just make up names for there students. Anything that's shown in a gi can be done without the gi with some minor changes.
The most basic technique, which my school just calls a "standing sweep", works the best. I will try and find some videos to link that explain it better.
There is a lot of stuff in bjj that is "sport only" and doesn't apply to a street fight. These should be obvious when you see them.
There are also leg locks that can be applied from the ground to a standing opponent. The "heel hook" being one of the most devastating locks you can apply. You can destroy someone's knee/ankle joint and even break their leg with it. Again, it's not something you can really understand through text but requires practice.
If you can get to your hands and knees, a double leg take down can work pretty well.
Here's a technique from your back.
http://youtu.be/quVc8zso1_M
Can you employ that effectively from hands and knees position? I have seen that from the standing position and the person shoots in low for it.
BJJ has several techniques for this that will work in a real fight. However, trying to describe how to do them in text is not that easy. There are little details to everything that can make a big difference. You can google "sweeping a standing opponent in Bjj" and there will be a bunch of videos. A lot of techniques in BJJ don't have names so some instructors just make up names for there students. Anything that's shown in a gi can be done without the gi with some minor changes.
The most basic technique, which my school just calls a "standing sweep", works the best. I will try and find some videos to link that explain it better.
There is a lot of stuff in bjj that is "sport only" and doesn't apply to a street fight. These should be obvious when you see them.
There are also leg locks that can be applied from the ground to a standing opponent. The "heel hook" being one of the most devastating locks you can apply. You can destroy someone's knee/ankle joint and even break their leg with it. Again, it's not something you can really understand through text but requires practice.
That's the type of thing I envisioned for that. Assume the person employing it is well versed and experienced with the move.
Inkslinger
02-10-16, 11:09
Can you employ that effectively from hands and knees position? I have seen that from the standing position and the person shoots in low for it.
I've only ever had to do it once, but it worked for me. Instead of lifting up like the typical take down, I gripped the legs and pulled toward me. Then I hopped on and commenced to pummel. ;)
There are multiple moves applicable when you are on your back and the opponent is standing. As in engaging while you are still "down."
I would have no prob., depending upon circumstances, simply staying on my back and letting BG come to me. Very situationally dependent as to what I would do. If I was knocked down by a BG I thought was significantly larger and more powerful, I still may choose to get up quickly, start circling away from dominant hand, and look for a takedown or getting the back. Have I judged he is a better stand-up fighter as well or just bigger, stronger? Two diff. situations. There are techniques to close the distance with a better stand-up opponent so as to allow me to put my hands on him. Going to take some shots but that is part of it.
On hands and knees? Get the ph-uck out of that position ASAP(when the BG is standing). Depending on BG's perceived abilities, I may choose to get up ASAP, go H2H looking to take out a knee, and then finish off. Real deal life and death? If I get that back, I may just bend down and bite out a huge chunk of neck, face, ear, etc. Getting the neck and taking out large vein would then mean just hanging on until BG is basically DRT. Or, get the back and use a throw that will allow me to ferociously slam his head/neck on a curb, concrete, rock, etc.
Once again, really tough to answer b/c would be so situationally dependent.
Depending on the situation, if you got dropped in a fight, if you are able to get up, I think it may be time to leave. Also, if he has friends, the ground game is also not the way to go, a kick to the face will end any plans you have.
A couple more points: the ground is a dangerous place, especially on the bottom, if you are not trained. If you are on top, there are always sweeps people can use as well, then you have to fight, again, to your feet, or back on top of them. If you are on the ground and get mounted, which is the most dangerous position, sweeps can be easy if the guy does not have the over-whelming size advantage or training. I see sloppy, lose, mounts all the time in streets fights and cringe that the person on the bottom does not hip-escape, buck, or anything but take punches.
Now for the take-down:
If you are proficient, a double leg will be good. I know two people that ended a street fight with a double leg. That is what is also dangerous about them, if you are going to slam the guy, he will most likely get knocked out, and have a bad head injury, but if he attacked you, that is on him. The set-up for a double leg, will be easy if he overcommits to his boxing, you will have to change levels, under his punches, get a good penetration step, with your hips below his, then drive. (Real wrestlers please correct me :D )
I believe hip tosses or most clinch based throws/ takedowns may work the best. Untrained people do not know how to clinch fight, they will get scared, so a trip, sweep, or throw will present itself. These are hard to predict, you will have to do what you 'feel'.
Again these are most applicable if you are trained. In Muay Thai, right now, the clinch is where I need most work because I have to think about certain positions. You never want to think, because then it is too late.
Do whatever take down you have drilled a million times.
Go train with Cecil Burch.
OK, here's what I have so far, based on some comments, vid supplied, etc. It's rough and unedited, but see what you all think so far:
"...As he stepped in, I quickly wrapped both of my legs around his, popped up on my ass and grabbed him around both legs, and did a double leg take down, slamming him hard into the ground. I released him and rolled over and up into a crouch in one motion.
He was trying to get to his feet but I was faster and in a single motion as I started to stand up to bolt caught him in the face with boot hard as I came out of my crouch, jumped over him, and boogied out of there at full speed. I’d probably broken his nose or jaw, but he’d live to see another day and I was not injured or captured, so all good in my book. It didn’t go as I’d planned for damned sure, but the end result was satisfactory all things considered. There was still the matter of transportation we needed however and this recent event meant a slight change of plans."
el_chingoton13
02-10-16, 13:07
Heel hook for its effectiveness and the fact that the non hook arm can be used to cover your face.
sniperfrog
02-10-16, 13:14
A heel hook would be way cooler. Google/YouTube "Rousimar Palhares heel hook" and you'll see for yourself.
I would never attempt a double leg from the position you describe.
Heel hook for its effectiveness and the fact that the non hook arm can be used to cover your face.
Per the OP, gonna need a lot more info then that. Thanx.
As soon as I was aware of legs trying to wrap(as in I'm standing and guy on ground is trying to wrap), I would collapse down into him; most likely resulting in me being able to push knees through and end up in mount. Worst case would be I am in a quasi-mount position and able to deliver effective blows to head and body. I'm visualizing my collapse into the guy on the ground would be explosive, forceful, and with a face shot as I am collapsing.
Heel hooks are a double-edged sword sometimes. A battle of dueling hooks can ensue.
How about a quick upkick to the nuts, gives guy split second to get up, and he follows up with boot to face and then E&E?
A heel hook would be way cooler. Google/YouTube "Rousimar Palhares heel hook" and you'll see for yourself.
I would never attempt a double leg from the position you describe.
I did that. Vid I found showed it to be more a submission move where the guy tapped out in the ring. Not sure it would apply well to my scenario.
In order of priority based upon ease of access.
Eyes, throat, groin and knees.
Which ever one you can hit hardest and easiest and then continue to hit one or more of these targets until the threat no longer exists.
If your guy is flat on his back he should stomp the closest knee as hard as he can (imagine you are trying to snap a large tree branch).
If that doesn't drop him down move up and stomp the groin as hard as you can, imagine he's got a spider on his zipper and you are trying to smash it into jelly.
Once down on the ground, if you end up entangled with your opponent don't roll around with him like it's a high school wrestling contest. Use your right hand to palm strike the ear and from that point of reference thumb the eyeball as far down into the eye socket as you can.
If your guy is still trying to play the Gracie game, grab a handful of hair, tilt the head back and full force punch the windpipe as hard as you can. By the way, a proper hair grab is done by running fingers through the hair and making a fist so you are securing a handful or hair roots.
I stand by the nard kicking. Had I tried some billy jack bullshit I could've gotten my gun compromised. ETA and maybe my ass whipped.
I remember being "taught" SSGT and all that gay stuff but was told "Most of the time that shit don't work and you'll likely never use it beyond armbars and PPTs. Do the most economical movement at the most vulnerable part as hard as you can like you actually want to go home"
Most fights go to the ground and size IS a factor. You just want them cuffed or stuffed without having to resort to knifings or shooting.
So bust a ballsack or a kneecap and get them prone and torqued and control their neck base. They can't do much and it's very disabling. If you're at a position of disadvantage like getting knocked supine with a sucker punch as I was then anything goes.
Hard strikes and anything to get them prone. These people have cooties and I don't want to get bit.
Looking at heel hooks that could work I guess but oh shit you're in a fight.
If your bad guy is giving a "why you suck speech" then your dude could plot but most fights are fast, chaotic, and sloppy.
Which is why Maglites and Old Hickory are the bomb but that's another topic for another day.
Or maybe your guy could just gutshoot him with a .25.
Tldr, kick em in the nards.
I'm not ashamed to admit that the one time a very large, very drunk man was standing over me I planted a boot heel firmly in his groin.
He fell down, his girlfriend ran to him to see if he was OK, and I broke contact.
JackFanToM
02-10-16, 15:00
Street fight, you merely do an up kick to the knee cap
sniperfrog
02-10-16, 17:15
I did that. Vid I found showed it to be more a submission move where the guy tapped out in the ring. Not sure it would apply well to my scenario.
The guy tapped to keep his knee joint from getting broken. That's the point of having a tap out, to prevent an injury in training or a competition. In a street fight you would just keep cranking until the weakest link broke first. Heel hooks are banned from a lot of grappling competitions because they cause so many injuries. Most submissions will cause fight ending injuries.
That said just use the upkick to the nuts or face. That works too.
el_chingoton13
02-10-16, 18:09
Apologies Will, to expand on my response. For a heel hook take down, that's what it was called in my school at least. Drive forward your right knee to the opponent's left foot, with your right hand hook that heel and drive off your left leg, face to their nuts, left arm over forehead, driving them down. That was probably grammatically retarded but it makes sense in my head. :)
el_chingoton13
02-10-16, 18:12
Here's a video that shows a pretty close approximation... https://youtu.be/aY2LIbwY97k
"...[I]As he stepped in, I quickly wrapped both of my legs around his, popped up on my ass and grabbed him around both legs, and did a double leg take down, slamming him hard into the ground. I released him and rolled over and up into a crouch in one motion...
I'm having a really hard time visualizing this. I thought one of these or a variation might work...
Tripod sweep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb1qqB60GHU
A hook & sickle sweep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV0iZDE1izc
Double ankle grab sweep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAXXkJssu1I
I'm having a really hard time visualizing this. I thought one of these or a variation might work...
Tripod sweep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb1qqB60GHU
A hook & sickle sweep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV0iZDE1izc
Double ankle grab sweep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAXXkJssu1I
It was based roughly on the vid posted in thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quVc8zso1_M&feature=youtu.be
I watch the vids you posted also,
Outlander Systems
02-11-16, 10:57
Protagonist places left calf in front of/against right shin of aggressor.
Protagonist then kicks right shin into the back of the aggressor's knees.
Agressor then proceeds to bust his ass.
If you want to add some comedy, have the protagonist do a rear-naked choke to the aggressor with the aggressor's own arm. I have seen this done, and its hilarity is rivaled only by its humiliation.
ETA: Arm-bar FTMFW. Elbows are overrated.
http://liftbigeatpig.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/485693_3583999491856_1149997406_n.jpg?w=604
Here's a video that shows a pretty close approximation... https://youtu.be/aY2LIbwY97k
Thanx for the vid. He needs to be responding from his back after getting knocked down and the person (being over confident) takes a few steps forward to within striking range for a kick to the nards, or knee (be he takes another guy out with a quick inside leg kick to the knee, so trying not to use that one again), or possibly as I have it written now.
I'm having a really hard time visualizing this. I thought one of these or a variation might work...
Tripod sweep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb1qqB60GHU
A hook & sickle sweep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV0iZDE1izc
Double ankle grab sweep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAXXkJssu1I
The problem with all the above is they start with the oponant bent over the person on their back, vs essentially upright. They all depend on the person bending over to start raining down the punches. The vid I reposted seemingly could work on a person standing upright or bending over as long as they were in the distance needed to do it. Does that make sense?
sniperfrog
02-11-16, 12:10
The problem with all the above is they start with the oponant bent over the person on their back, vs essentially upright. They all depend on the person bending over to start raining down the punches. The vid I reposted seemingly could work on a person standing upright or bending over as long as they were in the distance needed to do it. Does that make sense?
These don't require someone bending over. The double ankle grab sweep is easier to do to someone standing upright.
These don't require someone bending over. The double ankle grab sweep is easier to do to someone standing upright.
Good to know, thanx.
The problem with all the above is they start with the oponant bent over the person on their back, vs essentially upright. They all depend on the person bending over to start raining down the punches. The vid I reposted seemingly could work on a person standing upright or bending over as long as they were in the distance needed to do it. Does that make sense?
Makes complete sense. Although those videos show the person bending over it's not necessary, especially the ankle grab. As an example... if someone were to walk straight in to the prone opponent the guy laying down simply has to pivot slightly and hook a heel with his hand. Then it's quite easy to knock people off balance using a leg or both and even easier if you involve the arm or their lapel. You use their bodyweight to catapult you up off the ground and either on to your feet or a mount...
My shoulder is jacked and I'm doing rehab, so no rolling right now, or I'd take some photos to show what I mean. These are fairly close. Hope it helps!
http://www.bjjheroes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Reverse-De-La-Riva.jpg
http://98441.cdx.c.ooyala.com/VtZjZhczqIYWtFd-avGSN_XZsdgEGZM4/promo251998212
Outlander Systems
02-11-16, 16:48
Tore a rib connector years back trying to muscle a big assed sumbitch off me. Worst pain of my life.
Hope you make a swift recovery mah brotha.
Makes complete sense. Although those videos show the person bending over it's not necessary, especially the ankle grab. As an example... if someone were to walk straight in to the prone opponent the guy laying down simply has to pivot slightly and hook a heel with his hand. Then it's quite easy to knock people off balance using a leg or both and even easier if you involve the arm or their lapel. You use their bodyweight to catapult you up off the ground and either on to your feet or a mount...
My shoulder is jacked and I'm doing rehab, so no rolling right now, or I'd take some photos to show what I mean. These are fairly close. Hope it helps!
http://www.bjjheroes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Reverse-De-La-Riva.jpg
http://98441.cdx.c.ooyala.com/VtZjZhczqIYWtFd-avGSN_XZsdgEGZM4/promo251998212
Tore a rib connector years back trying to muscle a big assed sumbitch off me. Worst pain of my life.
Hope you make a swift recovery mah brotha.
Thanks! I've had the same rib injury and it takes 400 years to heal! Or at least it feels like it. Hope your healed up as well... Jiu Jitsu is my absolute favorite hobby, by far.
Thanks! I've had the same rib injury and it takes 400 years to heal! Or at least it feels like it. Hope your healed up as well... Jiu Jitsu is my absolute favorite hobby, by far.
Problem will all rib related injuries is unlike most stuff, they can't rest to heal. I fractured a rib once and it took months to stop hurting.
Outlander Systems
02-11-16, 19:15
Now that I have health insurance, I would love to roll again. I absolutely had a ton of fun doing it. It helped that all my buddies and I were involved at the same time.
Rib connector...It was absolutely horrific. At the time I had no insurance, and had to suffer in silence.
Thanks! I've had the same rib injury and it takes 400 years to heal! Or at least it feels like it. Hope your healed up as well... Jiu Jitsu is my absolute favorite hobby, by far.
Been training in Krav-based self defense for a while now. Our instructor's philosophy is to get off the ground ASAP if it goes there. Cool by me as I don't particularly like "rolling"! One guy in the class is a wrestler by past training (had a college scholarship but went Army) and he reverts to form. I prefer to stay off the ground if possible. I'll hit you in the f****g throat or eyes, rip off an ear, bite, whatever it takes to get up! I'm too old to engage in "civilized" fisticuffs or "rasslin".
Some of y'all are crazy. I've honestly hated every fight I've been in. I've gotten all winded, bruised, someone else's blood on me, had to do paperwork, felt stiff, and bleh.
I will flip the ass-whip switch but not for fun.
The only wrestling I'm willing to do anymore involves a limber chick, a king size, and thay one Enigna CD.
To each his own but I'm not getting any younger and only more brittle. That last injury of mine really drove it home, "Yer gettin' old, kid. Yer gettin' old"
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