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Parachute Pants
02-10-16, 21:05
My goal with this project is to have a fun, yet solid, blaster with the aesthetic of an BFPU 629. Here's where I'm at with my XM177E2 project:

3770737706

Upper:
Brownell's A1 upper
Teardrop FA
PSA BCG
Griffin Armament XM Linear Comp

Lower:
Anderson cheapo (at least it has a pony on it)
PSA LPK
A1 grip
PSA receiver ext assy
Cheap plastic CAR stock

Component issues:
*A2 profile lower -- I'm thinking about going full arfcom and reprofiling the lower myself with a dremel and files. Strangely, I'm more comfortable with mutilating a $40 Anderson than just with buying an $150, period correct NDS lower.
*Stock -- I'm planning on getting a metal one, the two I'm considering are the one's from Tony's Custom and Essential Arms. Thoughts? Experiences
*Buffer tube -- This is a 6-position tube, and I'm contemplating either getting the NDS 2-position or just editing this post to remove all mention of a 6-position tube
*M4 handguards -- Just placeholders for now. I've been eyeing the Rock River Arms A2 CAR handguards because they seem to be a decent repro.
*Barrel -- I don't want to register this as an SBR, so I will go the pin-and-weld route with a 12.5" barrel (either OEM or cut down). I've been looking everywhere for a 12.5"-16" pencil/lightweight carbine gas barrel with an FSB already installed, and the only one I can find in stock is a 16" Daniel Defense from ADCO. The other barrels I've identified as being suitable are the 6720 Colt barrel and the Bushmaster superlight, but the Colt is out of stock everywhere and Bushmaster's website is wack right now. Suggestions?

Other issues:
*I want to give this a weathered look, any advice on how to accomplish this? I went over the small parts with some emery cloth, which satisfactorily pulled up the parkerizing, but that anodization on the receivers is tough! Advice? Recommendations?
*I'd prefer the aluminum components to be grey than black, or maybe just stripped, bare aluminum, if that looks cool.
*Once I get a barrel, any suggestions of where I can get a pin-and-weld done? ADCO seems to be highly regarded on this site, but they explicitly state they won't work on surface hardened barrels or muzzle devices (the Griffin comp is QPQ nitrided).

Anyway, guide a noob!

bigwagon
02-11-16, 09:35
I'm in the midst of an almost identical build and am in search of the same type barrel as you are. So far most of what I've found are LW mid-length gas barrels. My ideal barrel would be a 14.7 carbine gas LW pinned with an A2 hider. I think a 6720 Colt barrel is the way I'll eventually go.

ClassIIIGunsmith
02-11-16, 09:43
If your looking for it to be a dirt clot shooter I would recommend a 6 positions tube but if you want an accurate clone and not a looks similar then go with a 2 position tube. If your also looking at removing the anodization do the same method that actually made the real ones look like that, rub it on some stuff. Ex: gritty dirt, mud, copper scrub brush, military solvents, metal on metal contact. That is rough sounding but that is how the real ones got there current state of finish

Parachute Pants
02-11-16, 12:28
I'm in the midst of an almost identical build and am in search of the same type barrel as you are. So far most of what I've found are LW mid-length gas barrels. My ideal barrel would be a 14.7 carbine gas LW pinned with an A2 hider. I think a 6720 Colt barrel is the way I'll eventually go.

ADCO has a Daniel Defense 16" LW carbine barrel. You could buy it, have them cut it to 14.7, and pin an A2 all in one credit card transaction!




If your also looking at removing the anodization do the same method that actually made the real ones look like that, rub it on some stuff. Ex: gritty dirt, mud, copper scrub brush, military solvents, metal on metal contact. That is rough sounding but that is how the real ones got there current state of finish

I definitely have brass and steel wire brushes. Would those fit the bill? What about a scrubbing pad and some metal polish?

ClassIIIGunsmith
02-11-16, 12:36
Yes any scrub brush works. I just feel that the copper ones are less damaging to critical specs. But make sure it is done with military solvent (that stuff can clean anything and ruin finish on guns (reason why I hate using it), which if your intention is to do that to make it look like a heavily used rifle then it will work perfectly)

bigwagon
02-12-16, 08:11
Here's my version. I'm calling it a 723 clone:

PM marked A1 upper with large round FA, arsenal refinished in black
Colt fiberlite stock
Stag A2 lower
CAR handguards
Still looking for a LW barrel

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w273/bigwagon/723_zpsns1nr6bl.jpg (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/bigwagon/media/723_zpsns1nr6bl.jpg.html)

Scotter260
02-12-16, 08:28
If I'm understanding correctly at TOS, Brownell's is intending to release a 12.5" barrel for retro items they mentioned just prior to SHOT (along with NDS A1 uppers and lowers).

Just something to consider.

If you check the retro thread at TOS for a post by Brownell's titled Shot Show 2016 (it's a few pages deep) - video on page three of the thread and page four for a pic. Barrel is 12.7" but they mention a production delay. They also posted a pic of a repro moderator on the same page as the barrel. (Man hot linking would sure make this easier ;) )

Parachute Pants
02-12-16, 09:03
Thanks for the intel! Here's a link to the video:

https://youtu.be/LAVTWVPn698

If Brownells is making a 12.7" barrel, then I might just have to monitor their site until it drops. There are also a couple of pictures on the aforementioned thread (on page 4, to be exact) which show the 12.7" barrel and their repro moderator.

Scotter260
02-12-16, 10:39
In that thread I requested they consider having a "retro" heading because it's a bear to try and track down the items they offer within that realm.

I'm hoping they'll give the request some consideration as it would definitely aid in one-stop shopping.

Renegade04
02-12-16, 10:41
In re-profiling a lower, you will incur a sizeable expense if you are going to have it re-anodized. That alone will cost nearly as much as a new NDS lower. Also, Brownells is starting to carry an A1 lower. http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/lower-receivers/ar-15-m16-a1-lower-receiver-sku080001304-83622-174441.aspx

This is something you may want to consider. Additionally, since the receivers are black and not XM Gray, there is a little work into getting them to look worn and close to the gray shade. I did some work on an A2 upper and lower to lighten them up and look worn.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/Weapons%202014/A2%20ARs/006_zps5gnknwvb.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/jamesrea_2006/media/Weapons%202014/A2%20ARs/006_zps5gnknwvb.jpg.html)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/Weapons%202014/A2%20ARs/004_zpsyjx94d4c.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/jamesrea_2006/media/Weapons%202014/A2%20ARs/004_zpsyjx94d4c.jpg.html)

I used some fine grit sandpaper, super fine steel wool, a little oil, and a Scotch pad. I started by spraying it down with Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber and worked from there. It just take some time and patience. Have fun on your build. It looks like you are off to a good start. Here are pics of my XM177E2 I built a few years ago.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/Weapons%202014/Retro%20ARs/XM177E2/XM177E2a_zps2cwdg8vk.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/jamesrea_2006/media/Weapons%202014/Retro%20ARs/XM177E2/XM177E2a_zps2cwdg8vk.jpg.html)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/Weapons%202014/Retro%20ARs/XM177E2/XM177E2_zpswcpd6ygh.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/jamesrea_2006/media/Weapons%202014/Retro%20ARs/XM177E2/XM177E2_zpswcpd6ygh.jpg.html)

ClassIIIGunsmith
02-12-16, 19:51
In re-profiling a lower, you will incur a sizeable expense if you are going to have it re-anodized. That alone will cost nearly as much as a new NDS lower. Also, Brownells is starting to carry an A1 lower. http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/lower-receivers/ar-15-m16-a1-lower-receiver-sku080001304-83622-174441.aspx

This is something you may want to consider. Additionally, since the receivers are black and not XM Gray, there is a little work into getting them to look worn and close to the gray shade. I did some work on an A2 upper and lower to lighten them up and look worn.
Pictures

I used some fine grit sandpaper, super fine steel wool, a little oil, and a Scotch pad. I started by spraying it down with Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber and worked from there. It just take some time and patience. Have fun on your build. It looks like you are off to a good start. Here are pics of my XM177E2 I built a few years ago.
Pictures


Nice PSA. I think he is looking a doing a semi look alike since he said he is doing a 723. And that model can be pulled off using a A2 lower as long as nobody takes a deep look at it.

Renegade04
02-12-16, 21:45
Nice PSA. I think he is looking a doing a semi look alike since he said he is doing a 723. And that model can be pulled off using a A2 lower as long as nobody takes a deep look at it.

Parachute Pants is the one I was addressing. He is the one doing the XM177E2. bigwagon was doing the 723 build. In either case, the A1 full-fence lower was used. The Model 727 was later made using the A1 and A2 lowers. There was also about three different variations of the 723.

Parachute Pants
02-13-16, 15:51
In regards to refinishing, could I use Norrell's on bare aluminum? Such as if I were to reprofile the lower and just apply Norrell's on top of that. It would also allow me the opportunity to get a matching XM grey receiver set, buffer tube, and trigger guard.

the_1iviper
02-15-16, 17:19
In regards to refinishing, could I use Norrell's on bare aluminum? Such as if I were to reprofile the lower and just apply Norrell's on top of that. It would also allow me the opportunity to get a matching XM grey receiver set, buffer tube, and trigger guard.

i have , but Norrell's doesn't cover like paint or cerakote . also watch your cure temp and time. Norrell's will want to turn a greenish hue with too much of either. and filling in any engravings can be tricky with Norrell's and not have it show through.

here's a receiver set i did in Norrell's along with the slip ring , charging handle , and trigger guard.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/1iviper/IMG_1747_zpsa4a62ada.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/1iviper/media/IMG_1747_zpsa4a62ada.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/1iviper/IMG_1749_zps9245c490.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/1iviper/media/IMG_1749_zps9245c490.jpg.html)

LoboTBL
02-15-16, 18:04
If you're looking for a reasonably durable grayish finish you can try Brownells Teflon Moly oven cure finish. They have it in a dark park and its not all that far off of the old gray color of the A1s.

As far as weathering goes to give it that authentic GI 'patina'; someone else mentioned it earlier. Find a muddy hole to crawl around in, some pea gravel and sand thrown in for good measure, every other week or so crawl around in that hole for couple hours, toss the rifle in the bed of your truck and drive down some good bumpy roads out in the country (or just up and down my street in SW Houston), clean it after each instance of this abuse with some break free and a copper and nylon brush to the point where it passes the white glove treatment. Repeat. In about a year it will have developed the look you're after. :D

RAM Engineer
02-17-16, 17:04
I've got a question about those Brownells uppers: Do they have M4 feedramps or not? I know the NDS version does NOT have them, in order to be as accurate as possible.

Also, to the original poster: Have you contacted Griffin to see if they have a recommendation for getting your barrel work done?

Renegade04
02-17-16, 18:31
I've got a question about those Brownells uppers: Do they have M4 feedramps or not? I know the NDS version does NOT have them, in order to be as accurate as possible.

Also, to the original poster: Have you contacted Griffin to see if they have a recommendation for getting your barrel work done?

Per Brownells website "...Features specific to the Brownells M16A1 Upper Receiver are the original A1 profile, with no shell deflector, A1 rear sight housing and proper carry handle contours. The upper starts off as a 7075 T6 aluminum forging, then is machined to mil-spec dimensions. Once machined, the upper is finished with a matte black hard anodized finish. This finish matches most modern lowers found on the market today, as well as the Brownells BRN-16A1 Lower Receiver sold separately. Upper receiver does NOT have M4 feedramps.

Parachute Pants
02-21-16, 01:42
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/1iviper/IMG_1747_zpsa4a62ada.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/1iviper/media/IMG_1747_zpsa4a62ada.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/1iviper/IMG_1749_zps9245c490.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/1iviper/media/IMG_1749_zps9245c490.jpg.html)

Did you reprofile that lower yourself? It looks great, coloration and all.


I've got a question about those Brownells uppers: Do they have M4 feedramps or not? I know the NDS version does NOT have them, in order to be as accurate as possible.

Also, to the original poster: Have you contacted Griffin to see if they have a recommendation for getting your barrel work done?

I have a Brownells A1 upper, and, as Renegade said, it does not have M4 feed ramps.

I haven't contacted Griffin for advice. According to this: http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/ar.access6.html#xm, GA cut and pinned a Colt 6720 barrel for the author. I doubt they'd do the gunsmithing for me, though, as I am just a lowly pleb. Right now I'm waiting for a barrel to materialize before I deal with the pin/weld.

I'm thinking of getting one of the Brownells 12" barrels when they come out. If they're anything like their 20" A1 barrels, then they'll come with the flat slip ring (although I think the angled delta ring is correct for an XM177).

the_1iviper
02-21-16, 21:46
Did you reprofile that lower yourself? It looks great, coloration and all.



I have a Brownells A1 upper, and, as Renegade said, it does not have M4 feed ramps.

I haven't contacted Griffin for advice. According to this: http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/ar.access6.html#xm, GA cut and pinned a Colt 6720 barrel for the author. I doubt they'd do the gunsmithing for me, though, as I am just a lowly pleb. Right now I'm waiting for a barrel to materialize before I deal with the pin/weld.

I'm thinking of getting one of the Brownells 12" barrels when they come out. If they're anything like their 20" A1 barrels, then they'll come with the flat slip ring (although I think the angled delta ring is correct for an XM177).

i picked up the lower partially milled and the markings were already stamped in , i finished up the front and rear area's and filled in the markings and refinished it. the moly resin is really easy to work with , it just doesn't "cover" like cerakote or krylon. i had to redo the lower after touching up the area's where i had filled in some markings as they showed through the moly resin. i see Norrell's has a new color that i'm going to try on a colt lower for my 733 project , it's the grayish-black in semi gloss.

Parachute Pants
02-22-16, 00:09
i picked up the lower partially milled and the markings were already stamped in , i finished up the front and rear area's and filled in the markings and refinished it. the moly resin is really easy to work with , it just doesn't "cover" like cerakote or krylon. i had to redo the lower after touching up the area's where i had filled in some markings as they showed through the moly resin. i see Norrell's has a new color that i'm going to try on a colt lower for my 733 project , it's the grayish-black in semi gloss.

Nice work. It looks bad ass. What kind of barrel did you go with?

the_1iviper
02-22-16, 23:24
Nice work. It looks bad ass. What kind of barrel did you go with?

it's one of the palmetto/fn barrel's , 14.7" with a pinned a2 by adco.

Parachute Pants
02-25-16, 09:58
Just to update this thread:

I decided to make this into a 20" rifle instead of a carbine, so I put the A1 stock back on the lower, bought the Brownells M16A1 barrel assembly, an A1 flash hider, and some rifle-length triangular handguards. I'll probably still make an XM177 upper for my SBR lower, though, which leads to some fun, new questions, such as, "Who makes an 11.5" or 10" barrel with the proper profile for the E2 and E1 configurations, respectively?"

ClassIIIGunsmith
02-25-16, 12:40
Just to update this thread:

I decided to make this into a 20" rifle instead of a carbine, so I put the A1 stock back on the lower, bought the Brownells M16A1 barrel assembly, an A1 flash hider, and some rifle-length triangular handguards. I'll probably still make an XM177 upper for my SBR lower, though, which leads to some fun, new questions, such as, "Who makes an 11.5" or 10" barrel with the proper profile for the E2 and E1 configurations, respectively?"

To answer that question you need to explain more about what you actually want. Do you want the correct twist rate or does barrel length and or shape only matter because if only length matters I would point you to the Daniel Defense website because they have some of the highest quality barrels (IMO) but they only do .750 at the block. But if your looking for a plinking rifle (that can take a lot of ammo at a time), I personally would would do the 10.3" Mk.18 barrel because nobody would know that its a chubby barrel clone (because 95% of the barrel is hidden from view) but as long as they don't measure the diameter you would have a nice shooter. But if you are wanting a accurate copy (actual pencil) that isn't a 12.5" I can't help you there amigo. Also the original xm-177 had a 10" barrel so the 10.3" would be a very accurate (OAL) clone.
https://bpullignwolnet.dotster.com/retroblackrifle/ModGde/CrbGde/609.html

Renegade04
02-25-16, 17:33
Just to update this thread:

I decided to make this into a 20" rifle instead of a carbine, so I put the A1 stock back on the lower, bought the Brownells M16A1 barrel assembly, an A1 flash hider, and some rifle-length triangular handguards. I'll probably still make an XM177 upper for my SBR lower, though, which leads to some fun, new questions, such as, "Who makes an 11.5" or 10" barrel with the proper profile for the E2 and E1 configurations, respectively?"

You can go with one of these and just have it cut-down to 10" and re-threaded. The only issue is that the gas port may need to be opened up just a tad.

http://shop.ar15sport.ihoststores.com/productinfo_v3.aspx?productid=RETRO-16LWT19

Brownells will be coming out with a 12.5" pencil barrel sometime soon. It may be a better candidate.

ClassIIIGunsmith
02-25-16, 17:58
You can go with one of these and just have it cut-down to 10" and re-threaded. The only issue is that the gas port may need to be opened up just a tad.

http://shop.ar15sport.ihoststores.com/productinfo_v3.aspx?productid=RETRO-16LWT19

Brownells will be coming out with a 12.5" pencil barrel sometime soon. It may be a better candidate.

Yeah He could cut one down to 10" and he would need to thread .375" at 1/2x28. Open up the gas port to 3/16" for reliable use with any ammo. Run a H3 buffer to slow down the bolt. It might be easier to make do with what the market has available unless you could find a A1 single thickness pencil (.650" all the way past the chamber meaning no steps) barrel cut it down to 10" drill a gas port at the pistol gas location run a pistol gas under the handguards and have a FSP at the Carbine gas location (like modern dizzys build barrels except not using a mid gas under a rifle handguard). This might be a difficult project if he doesn't want to cut a barrel and spend hours machining it and spending a lot of money. Or he could just buy a real moderator and cut the brownells 12.5" to 10" but that won't be very cost friendly.

Renegade04
02-25-16, 18:33
Yeah He could cut one down to 10" and he would need to thread .375" at 1/2x28. Open up the gas port to 3/16" for reliable use with any ammo. Run a H3 buffer to slow down the bolt. It might be easier to make do with what the market has available unless you could find a A1 single thickness pencil (.650" all the way past the chamber meaning no steps) barrel cut it down to 10" drill a gas port at the pistol gas location run a pistol gas under the handguards and have a FSP at the Carbine gas location (like modern dizzys build barrels except not using a mid gas under a rifle handguard). This might be a difficult project if he doesn't want to cut a barrel and spend hours machining it and spending a lot of money. Or he could just buy a real moderator and cut the brownells 12.5" to 10" but that won't be very cost friendly.

First, a H3 buffer is not needed. A standard carbine buffer is just fine. Also, there is no guarantee that the gas port will need to be opened up, but it is a possibility. Any competent gunsmith can cut down the barrel and re-thread it and it would not cost much money. Additionally, the barrel is .625", not .650". I use a cut down 16" barrel (12.75") on my XM177E2 and I have no cycling issues whatsoever. The gas port issue is dependent on the manufacturer. This is why I would recommend getting one of the Brownells 12.5" barrels when they come out as opposed to the 16" from AR15Sport. The AR15Sport barrel could be an immediate option that would be the correct profile. When it comes to building retros, depending on how correct you want them, there can be extra costs in order to make it as correct as you want it. You would be surprised at some of the lengths guys go to in order to have them very correct. Cost is not a factor when correctness comes into play.

ClassIIIGunsmith
02-25-16, 19:05
First, a H3 buffer is not needed. A standard carbine buffer is just fine. Also, there is no guarantee that the gas port will need to be opened up, but it is a possibility. Any competent gunsmith can cut down the barrel and re-thread it and it would not cost much money. Additionally, the barrel is .625", not .650". I use a cut down 16" barrel (12.75") on my XM177E2 and I have no cycling issues whatsoever. The gas port issue is dependent on the manufacturer. This is why I would recommend getting one of the Brownells 12.5" barrels when they come out as opposed to the 16" from AR15Sport. The AR15Sport barrel could be an immediate option that would be the correct profile. When it comes to building retros, depending on how correct you want them, there can be extra costs in order to make it as correct as you want it. You would be surprised at some of the lengths guys go to in order to have them very correct. Cost is not a factor when correctness comes into play.
I personally charge $55 an hour and to do that job it would take me 4 hours, 1 to machine, 1 to thread, 90minutes to do the crowning, and 30 minutes to open the gas port if required. And yes you are correct it is .625" i was typing fast and made an error. The H3 buffer slows down the bolt to allow for a lower CUP during extraction, which makes a gun less violent during ejection unlike the HK 91 and having the case out in 10 milliseconds with a high chamber pressure. Also you dont need to open a gas port until you are within 3" from the port so a 10.5" barrels gas port is bigger than a 16", so cutting a barrel to 12.75" is outside the "I may need to open the gas port" zone