View Full Version : Another gun show guy in jail.....
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2016/02/12/american-guns-star-surrenders-after-grand-jury-indictments-on-illegal-arms/?intcmp=hpbt4
The lead guy from American Guns.
Wyatt had been indicted by a federal Grand Jury Tuesday on seven counts of failure to file a tax return, three counts of dealing in firearms without a license, two counts of conspiracy, and one count of filing a false tax return.
But Wyatt's attorney Thomas Miller said the arrest is politically motivated, telling the Denver Post: "If you look at the conduct of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms over the course of the last eight years, you will find that there have been political as well as criminal prosecutions. I would say that the political bent of Washington is more behind this than it should be. I truly believe that this is driven by political winds."
I wonder if Paige needs a place to stay ;)
That's the best part of that show by far.
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ColtSeavers
02-12-16, 21:14
I always liked the outrageous price quotes.
"Let's see, you want a SA Operator to replace your RIA and a gunsmithing once over for the operator, that'll be $5,500.00...."
Though the big fake bewbs on the women that didn't make me want to stab my eyes out otherwise was also a bonus. Wonder if the son ever became a dentist, er, I mean engraver.
WTF is a "straw license"?
Prosecutors said that despite surrendering his firearms license in 2012, he continued to operate Gunsmoke, and submitted false paperwork to hide that another company with a valid firearms license was acting as Gunsmoke’s straw licensee.
Either you have a valid FFL that permits you to sell firearms or you do not. If he had another company with a FFL and the firearms in question were on the books of that license and he did 4473s then he had a valid FFL.
If the FFL was not his, then again there is no crime because it isn't illegal to sell your guns to a FFL and use a FFL as a transfer agent. People sell their guns through a "transfer FFL" all the time.
This makes me really question the validity of the tax evasion crap. For all we know he has been filing extensions. If not, he really is a retard.
Meanwhile tax evader to the tune of $4.5M Al Sharpton is still out there extorting money from people to not show up and protest them.
Not saying Wyatt isn't a douche (he is), just pointing out that there IS a double standard in Obama's IRS. :(
The guy is a sleaze but I'm sure the ATF are "proving a point".
The show I watched a few times. Dude was kinda pimping his stepdaughter and siliconbotox wife. He would rip people off on gun "deals" and they hat this obese fat troll of a "gunsmith" who worked in the basement who creeped on the jailbait daughter.
One ep a guy actually PAID him to patina and weather a gun to a price where he could've just bought an original.
It was sad to watch.
The guy is a sleaze but I'm sure the ATF are "proving a point".
The show I watched a few times. Dude was kinda pimping his stepdaughter and siliconbotox wife. He would rip people off on gun "deals" and they hat this obese fat troll of a "gunsmith" who worked in the basement who creeped on the jailbait daughter.
One ep a guy actually PAID him to patina and weather a gun to a price where he could've just bought an original.
It was sad to watch.
As a person, he is kinda a slimeball. Watched the show a couple times and didn't feel the need to watch it ever again. The cynical side of me believes only reprehensible scumbags are allowed to represent the firearms community on "reality" type programs. The practical side of me believes that might just be the nature of all "reality" type programs.
Moose-Knuckle
02-13-16, 01:42
When I first read the title I thought some poor SOB at a Gun Show was arrested for selling firearms as an individual and not as an FFL. But it's about a Reality Show about guns, okay.
Never watched it but know of it via promos. Rich Wyatt reminds me of a used car salesman/televangelist/politician rolled into one. And yeah his step-daughter/daughter/whatever and his wife are just way over the top. The young one reminds me of those crazy Ukraine girls who get plastic surgery to look like anime cosplay chics, well that or the Barbie ones.
Meanwhile tax evader to the tune of $4.5M Al Sharpton is still out there extorting money from people to not show up and protest them.
Not saying Wyatt isn't a douche (he is), just pointing out that there IS a double standard in Obama's IRS. :(
Yes, but Sharpton is black and Democrat. Therefore, the law does not apply, silly!
That's how social justice works.
Linebacker
02-13-16, 02:55
WTF is a "straw license"?
Either you have a valid FFL that permits you to sell firearms or you do not. If he had another company with a FFL and the firearms in question were on the books of that license and he did 4473s then he had a valid FFL.
If the FFL was not his, then again there is no crime because it isn't illegal to sell your guns to a FFL and use a FFL as a transfer agent. People sell their guns through a "transfer FFL" all the time.
Apparently, the FFL license holder in question or his agents, were not actually conducting the transactions...
This makes me really question the validity of the tax evasion crap. For all we know he has been filing extensions. If not, he really is a retard.
Extensions only buy you 5 additional months to file (April 15 to October 15). A crook would be a more appropriate label than retard...
Eurodriver
02-13-16, 14:10
I wonder if Paige needs a place to stay ;)
That's the best part of that show by far.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I always liked the outrageous price quotes.
"Let's see, you want a SA Operator to replace your RIA and a gunsmithing once over for the operator, that'll be $5,500.00...."
Though the big fake bewbs on the women that didn't make me want to stab my eyes out otherwise was also a bonus. Wonder if the son ever became a dentist, er, I mean engraver.
This chick??? :nono:
http://r.ddmcdn.com/w_624/s_f/o_1/cx_0/cy_17/cw_624/ch_416/DSC/uploads/2014/05/paige-wyatt-pictures0.jpg
She's like in her 20s by now.
Kind of a Barbie but hey....yolo.
Still funny how the ogre looking hamfist basement gunsmith guy would be all perving over her on national TV.
Except for the fact that her neck is like a foot long but I hear Euro is into that.
ColtSeavers
02-13-16, 15:25
Just looked that up, OCT 30 1994... Wow, feel just a little bit dirty now... She was 17 during the show...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlN3oEjMpUQ
I wonder what percentage of grown men have hebephilic tendencies...
Eurodriver
02-13-16, 15:34
Except for the fact that her neck is like a foot long but I hear Euro is into that.
Wat. :blink:
That's the whole reason I was all like :blink: in the first place!
WTF is a "straw license"?
Either you have a valid FFL that permits you to sell firearms or you do not. If he had another company with a FFL and the firearms in question were on the books of that license and he did 4473s then he had a valid FFL.
If the FFL was not his, then again there is no crime because it isn't illegal to sell your guns to a FFL and use a FFL as a transfer agent. People sell their guns through a "transfer FFL" all the time.
This makes me really question the validity of the tax evasion crap. For all we know he has been filing extensions. If not, he really is a retard.
My understanding is that they lost their FFL, and were using another shop's as if there own, not legal.
As a person, he is kinda a slimeball. Watched the show a couple times and didn't feel the need to watch it ever again. The cynical side of me believes only reprehensible scumbags are allowed to represent the firearms community on "reality" type programs. The practical side of me believes that might just be the nature of all "reality" type programs.
There was some kind of facebook drama between him and some top 4 gun shooters, where he was saying what they did was all BS, and he could out shoot them. Of course the disagreement went very nasty, I do not know what became of it.
Apparently, the FFL license holder in question or his agents, were not actually conducting the transactions...
I'd like to know exactly what was being done.
Extensions only buy you 5 additional months to file (April 15 to October 15). A crook would be a more appropriate label than retard...
Not true, I personally know a guy going on his 4th year.
My understanding is that they lost their FFL, and were using another shop's as if there own, not legal.
Were the guns on the books of that other shops FFL?
ColtSeavers
02-13-16, 23:41
Were the guns on the books of that other shops FFL?
I think that is the other $64,000 question. The first being what happens to the womenz of course.
I think that is the other $64,000 question. The first being what happens to the womenz of course.
It sounds like they were on the books, or they'd simply nail him for being an unlicensed dealer. So what they are going to do is say he was the "actual dealer" while the other FFL took care of the actual transactions.
That is why they had to invent a new bullshit category called "Straw License."
The reality of course is this is no different than anyone else who buys, sells and trades guns and transfers everything through a FFL. They are going to say because he had a gun shop he somehow violated the law. But seriously, after he lost his FFL what was he supposed to do, convert it to a surf shop?
He's got a crap load of accessories and non firearms things to try and sell off. Technically since all the firearms defaulted to him as an individual, he could have simply sold them as an individual. That is what most people do when they close their FFL but still have firearms on the books.
In this case, it sounds like he tried to cover his bases and make sure everything went through a FFL to protect himself. But under the "fast and furious" administration we are seeing there is no protection. Airsoft guns are unregistered machine guns, 80% receivers are unserialized firearms and now having a FFL handle your transfers is using a "straw license."
I'd like somebody to explain how that is any different from somebody selling their guns on gunbroker and shipping through a FFL to protect themselves from being charged as an unlicensed dealer. Once upon a time that is exactly what ATF wanted you to do, now it seems it's exactly what they want to arrest you for doing.
It's getting bizarre and scary.
ColtSeavers
02-14-16, 04:20
It sounds like they were on the books, or they'd simply nail him for being an unlicensed dealer. So what they are going to do is say he was the "actual dealer" while the other FFL took care of the actual transactions.
That is why they had to invent a new bullshit category called "Straw License."
The reality of course is this is no different than anyone else who buys, sells and trades guns and transfers everything through a FFL. They are going to say because he had a gun shop he somehow violated the law. But seriously, after he lost his FFL what was he supposed to do, convert it to a surf shop?
He's got a crap load of accessories and non firearms things to try and sell off. Technically since all the firearms defaulted to him as an individual, he could have simply sold them as an individual. That is what most people do when they close their FFL but still have firearms on the books.
In this case, it sounds like he tried to cover his bases and make sure everything went through a FFL to protect himself. But under the "fast and furious" administration we are seeing there is no protection. Airsoft guns are unregistered machine guns, 80% receivers are unserialized firearms and now having a FFL handle your transfers is using a "straw license."
I'd like somebody to explain how that is any different from somebody selling their guns on gunbroker and shipping through a FFL to protect themselves from being charged as an unlicensed dealer. Once upon a time that is exactly what ATF wanted you to do, now it seems it's exactly what they want to arrest you for doing.
It's getting bizarre and scary.
Honestly don't know without more details. The way I'm reading it, the 'straw liscensee' bit is for Wyatt/Gunsmoke to buy firearms from another FFL for the purpose of commercial sale by Wyatt/Gunsmoke, not personal use. So if he bought guns through an lother FFL, and subsequently then put those guns up for commercial sale in his store, for customers, at a profit, to be completed through another FFL again, I think that's where the problem lies.
I must admit to not knowing that much about how FFL's work, and what it is to be considered to be a firearms dealer as defined by the BATFE at any particular 'time of the month' though.
Heres a little more on the story...
http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/story/145523523192krst9zn0c
"On Feb. 17, 2012, Wyatt conspired with others known to the grand jury but not named, to deal in firearms without a license. In April 2012, the defendant surrendered his Federal Firearms License (FFL) due to his violations of federal laws and regulations. After Gunsmoke surrendered its FFL, Gunsmoke changed the address of a store known as Triggers Firearms LLC (Triggers), a federal firearms license, to the Gunsmoke address, although they did not play any role in managing the store or receive any profits. Thereafter, Wyatt continued to operate Gunsmoke as a retail firearms store that also offered gunsmithing services, but never held an ownership interest in Triggers or assumed management of Triggers. Wyatt and other conspirators submitted false paperwork to the ATF to hide that Triggers was acting as a straw licensee for Gunsmoke."
It sounds like they were on the books, or they'd simply nail him for being an unlicensed dealer. So what they are going to do is say he was the "actual dealer" while the other FFL took care of the actual transactions.
That is why they had to invent a new bullshit category called "Straw License."
The reality of course is this is no different than anyone else who buys, sells and trades guns and transfers everything through a FFL. They are going to say because he had a gun shop he somehow violated the law. But seriously, after he lost his FFL what was he supposed to do, convert it to a surf shop?
He's got a crap load of accessories and non firearms things to try and sell off. Technically since all the firearms defaulted to him as an individual, he could have simply sold them as an individual. That is what most people do when they close their FFL but still have firearms on the books.
In this case, it sounds like he tried to cover his bases and make sure everything went through a FFL to protect himself. But under the "fast and furious" administration we are seeing there is no protection. Airsoft guns are unregistered machine guns, 80% receivers are unserialized firearms and now having a FFL handle your transfers is using a "straw license."
I'd like somebody to explain how that is any different from somebody selling their guns on gunbroker and shipping through a FFL to protect themselves from being charged as an unlicensed dealer. Once upon a time that is exactly what ATF wanted you to do, now it seems it's exactly what they want to arrest you for doing.
It's getting bizarre and scary.
Well, we don't know the whole story, but the report is he was using the other FFL as if his own, he even changed the address to his shop, even though he is not a managing member of that FFL. We can only assume that they were not only using that FFL fo 4473s, but to purchase firearms as well. The guns were on the books probably, but HE was NOT on the books, therefore, he is making a living as a dealer, but he is not actually a dealer....that is what I am getting out of it from the limited info.
Heres a little more on the story...
http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/story/145523523192krst9zn0c
"On Feb. 17, 2012, Wyatt conspired with others known to the grand jury but not named, to deal in firearms without a license. In April 2012, the defendant surrendered his Federal Firearms License (FFL) due to his violations of federal laws and regulations. After Gunsmoke surrendered its FFL, Gunsmoke changed the address of a store known as Triggers Firearms LLC (Triggers), a federal firearms license, to the Gunsmoke address, although they did not play any role in managing the store or receive any profits. Thereafter, Wyatt continued to operate Gunsmoke as a retail firearms store that also offered gunsmithing services, but never held an ownership interest in Triggers or assumed management of Triggers. Wyatt and other conspirators submitted false paperwork to the ATF to hide that Triggers was acting as a straw licensee for Gunsmoke."
And this:
After losing his FFL, the defendant did not apply for or obtain a license to sell firearms from the Gunsmoke premises. Wyatt held a meeting the day before losing his license with his employees to describe how he wanted the business to continue to run. During April 1, 2013 to March 31, 2015, no other person was licensed to engage in the business of dealing in firearms at Gunsmoke, Wyatt directed Gunsmoke employees to enter firearm sales in Gunsmoke’s computer point of sales software system as “miscellaneous” sales rather than firearm sales. Customers who shopped at Gunsmoke were able to look at numerous firearms that were displayed throughout the store. Customers were able to speak with Gunsmoke employees, including Wyatt, about the features of particular firearms. Finally, customers selected and purchased firearms from Gunsmoke, and were able to have gunsmithing services performed on firearms at the Gunsmoke premises. After receiving payment for any firearms, Gunsmoke employees directed the customers to another firearm store which had a valid federal firearms license, where the customer filled out the background check paperwork and the customers took possession of the firearm(s) they had purchased at Gunsmoke. Customers who wanted gunsmithing services left their firearms with Gunsmoke. After the gunsmiths at Gunsmoke completed their work, they returned the firearms to the customers. The customers paid Gunsmoke directly for this service. Wyatt, without the FFL license, continued to order new guns for sale to keep the business going.
Linebacker
02-14-16, 07:45
Were the guns on the books of that other shops FFL?
I think we can assume they were in full control of the other license.
I get the tax evasion thing, in fact it pisses me off, I pay my taxes despite not liking how they are levied.
But this whole thing in essence boils down to my understanding of the purpose of whole FFL thing: insuring that prohibited persons do not receive firearms.
Is there any indication that NICS checks weren't done? Any indication 4473's weren't filled out on all firearms purchases?
If not seems to me that what he constructed met the objectives.
Of course once he goes felon for not paying his taxes he's done no matter which way you look at it.
I watched the show once or twice, guy was a tool, but I don't want to be paying for his room and board and three squares over the gun BS.
Well, we don't know the whole story, but the report is he was using the other FFL as if his own, he even changed the address to his shop, even though he is not a managing member of that FFL. We can only assume that they were not only using that FFL fo 4473s, but to purchase firearms as well. The guns were on the books probably, but HE was NOT on the books, therefore, he is making a living as a dealer, but he is not actually a dealer....that is what I am getting out of it from the limited info.
Sounds an awful lot like a guy with a copy of Shotgun News and a credit card.
How the hell do you go from Police Chief to jail for FFL and tax evasion violations? That guy must have some serious issues with reality.
Sounds an awful lot like a guy with a copy of Shotgun News and a credit card. - SteyrAUG
I would agree except for the store front 'collection'. No reasonable person would believe those guns are his personal endeavors and not a business especially as he employs others to keep them moving through stock in that store front. That place is a sales office with a shop in the basement. Even if it were set up just the opposite where all it was was a front counter to a shop and all guns were in basement hidden from public view it still looks like a firearms sales business by his actions.
His buying is one thing, but then the resale certainly makes the selling look to be the reason to buy... not the other way round. Not to mention it came to be that way after he lost his his own license.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
I would agree except for the store front 'collection'. No reasonable person would believe those guns are his personal endeavors and not a business especially as he employs others to keep them moving through stock in that store front. That place is a sales office with a shop in the basement. Even if it were set up just the opposite where all it was was a front counter to a shop and all guns were in basement hidden from public view it still looks like a firearms sales business by his actions.
His buying is one thing, but then the resale certainly makes the selling look to be the reason to buy... not the other way round. Not to mention it came to be that way after he lost his his own license.
Yes, he is buying and selling guns as an individual. Everything went through a FFL, just like everyone here does in the EE. The fact that he is paying for space changes NOTHING.
Again, he had an existing shop full of firearm accessories and related crap. Are former FFLs not allowed to buy and sell guns the way other people do?
What this really comes down to is bullshit regulation and ridiculous definitions. The FFL system shouldn't even have to exist. If you want to buy and sell guns, great it should be no different than somebody who wants to buy and sell lawn mowers.
Yes, he is buying and selling guns as an individual. Everything went through a FFL, just like everyone here does in the EE. The fact that he is paying for space changes NOTHING.
Again, he had an existing shop full of firearm accessories and related crap. Are former FFLs not allowed to buy and sell guns the way other people do?
What this really comes down to is bullshit regulation and ridiculous definitions. The FFL system shouldn't even have to exist. If you want to buy and sell guns, great it should be no different than somebody who wants to buy and sell lawn mowers.
Why shouldn't the 2A be limited, to include licensing for dealing in the business of firearms, just as our other rights are limited and may be regulated?
Yes, he is buying and selling guns as an individual. Everything went through a FFL, just like everyone here does in the EE. The fact that he is paying for space changes NOTHING.
Again, he had an existing shop full of firearm accessories and related crap. Are former FFLs not allowed to buy and sell guns the way other people do?
What this really comes down to is bullshit regulation and ridiculous definitions. The FFL system shouldn't even have to exist. If you want to buy and sell guns, great it should be no different than somebody who wants to buy and sell lawn mowers.
You are making the assumption that he is buying and selling as an individual. All we know from what has been reported, is that his FFL was revoked, and he continued to do business under another FFL that was his not his own, and apparently falsified records to do so. We can get into philosophical discussion about the laws, but that is a different discussion than to what laws he may have broken. It sure looks like he was being a dealer without a license, only worse, he was fraudulently using another FFL to do so.
Yes, he is buying and selling guns as an individual. Everything went through a FFL, just like everyone here does in the EE. The fact that he is paying for space changes NOTHING.
Again, he had an existing shop full of firearm accessories and related crap. Are former FFLs not allowed to buy and sell guns the way other people do?
What this really comes down to is bullshit regulation and ridiculous definitions. The FFL system shouldn't even have to exist. If you want to buy and sell guns, great it should be no different than somebody who wants to buy and sell lawn mowers.
Ok, re the laws. I agree, we all agree. the whole FFL thing is bogus... but it exists, we have to deal with it.
Yes former FFLs can buy and sell guns. BUT... it sounds like this guy was trying to play both sides of the fence.
So on Monday he is an FFL, has lots of inventory. Makes a living selling guns. His whole family makes a living selling guns as an FFL.
Tuesday he get's his license revoked.
Wenesday he's back to doing everything he used to do except he apparently stopped paying taxes because the guns were his personal collection?
OR
He somehow sold off all his personal inventory in what would appear to ANY reasonable person to be a business and that business being a "gun shop". I was under the impression that the ATF basically says, if you engage in teh business of selling firearms then you need an FFL. He clearly, with his whole family employed was in the firearms business. Hell he even had a TV show saying so.
This wasn't some old guy selling off his collection even it that collection was the size of a warehouse. It wasn't some guy collecting via purchase and sale to eventually own the holy grail.
His entire purpose in life was to operate a firearms business that included the arrangement of buying and selling.
If that doesn't fit the profile of a firearms business then I have never actually seen a firearms business. I suppose then the only real firearms business is someone like Colt, S&W, et al..
May a licensee create a personal collection to avoid the recordkeeping and NICS background check requirements of the GCA?
No. The law presumes that any firearm transferred to a personal collection for the purpose of willfully evading the restrictions placed upon licensees remains business inventory.
[18 U.S.C. 923(c)]
May a licensee store personal firearms at the business premises?
Yes, however, such firearms must be kept segregated from the licensee’s business inventory. A presumption exists that all firearms on a licensee’s business premises are for sale and must be entered in the licensee’s bound book. Licensees should appropriately identify or tag personal firearms as “not for sale.”
(a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General.
It's like the guy was any other licensee for any profession, then got spanked and lost his license but kept operating. Like a doctor that was diagnosing people and then sending them home with a web address for a web site in Canada for the medicine.
IOW, the guy walked and quacked like a duck and smelled like a rose. Some I'm figuring he was a duck with a rose in his beak even though he thinks he's a swan with a tulip.
You are making the assumption that he is buying and selling as an individual. All we know from what has been reported, is that his FFL was revoked, and he continued to do business under another FFL that was his not his own, and apparently falsified records to do so. We can get into philosophical discussion about the laws, but that is a different discussion than to what laws he may have broken. It sure looks like he was being a dealer without a license, only worse, he was fraudulently using another FFL to do so.
And that is different from a high volume collector on gunbroker how?
Let's look at a scenario.
Cheap ass gun guy A reads shotgun news and finds a FFL who will do $10 transfers for him. Chap ass gun guy A buys things in threes. He see's a gun he likes so he buys three of them. When he tires of owning three of them he sells the other two and has them transfer through his FFL so he isn't at risk of being seen as an unlicensed dealer.
I probably can't count the number of guys who have "bought a couple extra" when it comes to ARs, AKs, limited edition or otherwise unique firearms.
So are they all guilty of being "straw dealers"?
I know this guy is a slimeball, but if he bought everything through a FFL and sold everything through a FFL then THERE IS NO CRIME. And that is because we don't have a "straw license" law on the books. This is a huge ATF overstep and you guys are going to buy into it and very quickly find yourselves subject to the same rules and regulations.
And when the day comes that it happens to you, you'll calmly explain that you expected to give those "other two firearms" to your kids but learned they had no actual interest so you sold them on gunbroker. By this time ATF will have established a definition that allows them to "determine enforcement" and they really won't care what you say, it will all be about what they believe and they probably will think anyone who bought "three ARs, three AKs, or three whatever" is pretty shady to start with and knew he was buying in volume for the purposes of later resale.
It's almost as is FOPA never existed.
Ok, re the laws. I agree, we all agree. the whole FFL thing is bogus... but it exists, we have to deal with it.
Yes former FFLs can buy and sell guns. BUT... it sounds like this guy was trying to play both sides of the fence.
So on Monday he is an FFL, has lots of inventory. Makes a living selling guns. His whole family makes a living selling guns as an FFL.
Tuesday he get's his license revoked.
Wenesday he's back to doing everything he used to do except he apparently stopped paying taxes because the guns were his personal collection?
OR
He somehow sold off all his personal inventory in what would appear to ANY reasonable person to be a business and that business being a "gun shop". I was under the impression that the ATF basically says, if you engage in teh business of selling firearms then you need an FFL. He clearly, with his whole family employed was in the firearms business. Hell he even had a TV show saying so.
This wasn't some old guy selling off his collection even it that collection was the size of a warehouse. It wasn't some guy collecting via purchase and sale to eventually own the holy grail.
His entire purpose in life was to operate a firearms business that included the arrangement of buying and selling.
If that doesn't fit the profile of a firearms business then I have never actually seen a firearms business. I suppose then the only real firearms business is someone like Colt, S&W, et al..
It's like the guy was any other licensee for any profession, then got spanked and lost his license but kept operating. Like a doctor that was diagnosing people and then sending them home with a web address for a web site in Canada for the medicine.
IOW, the guy walked and quacked like a duck and smelled like a rose. Some I'm figuring he was a duck with a rose in his beak even though he thinks he's a swan with a tulip.
When you have your FFL revoked, your inventory becomes your personal property (except for post samples of course) and there is NOTHING that says you can't sell your remaining property.
I can think of a few dozens guys who folded their license in the 1980s and are sitting on hundreds of NIB firearms including a lot of NFA stuff and will be selling it all when they get near retirement age.
I think the only thing here is the guy was still in possession of his shop, if he took everything to his house and sold it on gunbroker nobody here would see anything wrong with it. The problem is, still having your rental property doesn't magically make you a criminal.
Why shouldn't the 2A be limited, to include licensing for dealing in the business of firearms, just as our other rights are limited and may be regulated?
Because you know damn well why.
ColtSeavers
02-15-16, 01:29
I think the only thing here is the guy was still in possession of his shop, if he took everything to his house and sold it on gunbroker nobody here would see anything wrong with it. The problem is, still having your rental property doesn't magically make you a criminal.
I think you are making the case that seems to be put forth against him right here. Wyatt shouldn't have kept running a business while also selling firearms from the business/on the premises/whatever. Should have taken the firearms home and listed them in personals/online. Could have kept the shop open as a gunsmithing/engraving business service only or something. Mixing the two is the folly as I understand it.
I think you are making the case that seems to be put forth against him right here. Wyatt shouldn't have kept running a business while also selling firearms from the business/on the premises/whatever. Should have taken the firearms home and listed them in personals/online. Could have kept the shop open as a gunsmithing/engraving business service only or something. Mixing the two is the folly as I understand it.
But was it illegal to keep his shop in order to sell all the gun related items that don't require a FFL, especially if he still had time left on his lease? The answer is "no" there is nothing illegal about doing that. The bottom line is this.
1. The guns were his personal property, this happened the instant he was no longer a FFL.
2. All of them were lawfully transferred through a FFL.
3. There is no law regarding "straw licenses." This is made up ATF gobblygook.
Imagine for a second that your wife was arrested tomorrow for "straw possession" of one of your firearms. Sure, she was completely within the law to possess one of your firearms and no nobody can point out any actual laws broken...but if they say stupid words like "straw possession" long enough, eventually somebody starts nodding along like "Yep, she had his guns...that's straw possession alright" and then before you know what happens it's an actual law that ATF can enforce because everyone thought it was one already.
So basically this guy is guilty of the following: 1. being a jerkoff, 2. still having retail property 3. not taking the standard 40% loss on your inventory by selling everything to a firearms liquidator. Other than that, he didn't break any laws regarding firearms. In fact he seems to have tried to protect himself by transferring everything through a FFL he was on working terms with.
He was completely within his rights to take everything to the next gunshow and sell all of it "gunshow loophole" style without background checks or 4473s, after all he was no longer a FFL. And you can bet there would have been a "fast and furious" shitstorm had he done so.
FORMER GUN DEALER SELLS HUNDREDS OF GUNS WITH NO BACKGROUND CHECKS.
He saw that one coming so he did everything through a FFL instead, and now he is facing made up bullshit laws that don't even exist yet.
ColtSeavers
02-15-16, 04:10
But was it illegal to keep his shop in order to sell all the gun related items that don't require a FFL, especially if he still had time left on his lease? The answer is "no" there is nothing illegal about doing that. The bottom line is this.
1. The guns were his personal property, this happened the instant he was no longer a FFL.
2. All of them were lawfully transferred through a FFL.
3. There is no law regarding "straw licenses." This is made up ATF gobblygook.
Imagine for a second that your wife was arrested tomorrow for "straw possession" of one of your firearms. Sure, she was completely within the law to possess one of your firearms and no nobody can point out any actual laws broken...but if they say stupid words like "straw possession" long enough, eventually somebody starts nodding along like "Yep, she had his guns...that's straw possession alright" and then before you know what happens it's an actual law that ATF can enforce because everyone thought it was one already.
So basically this guy is guilty of the following: 1. being a jerkoff, 2. still having retail property 3. not taking the standard 40% loss on your inventory by selling everything to a firearms liquidator. Other than that, he didn't break any laws regarding firearms. In fact he seems to have tried to protect himself by transferring everything through a FFL he was on working terms with.
He was completely within his rights to take everything to the next gunshow and sell all of it "gunshow loophole" style without background checks or 4473s, after all he was no longer a FFL. And you can bet there would have been a "fast and furious" shitstorm had he done so.
FORMER GUN DEALER SELLS HUNDREDS OF GUNS WITH NO BACKGROUND CHECKS.
He saw that one coming so he did everything through a FFL instead, and now he is facing made up bullshit laws that don't even exist yet.
Regarding the first bolded bit, I never posted otherwise, I even suggested nearly the same thing.
Regarding the second bolded bit, again, he should have not done so in any way shape or form while within/on the premises of his business (assuming that's what he actually did). I agree and posted he should have packed up his firearms and listed them privately and seperately from home and kept his business open for other gun related services. If he decided to say 'screw it, I used to be sherrif (or whatever) of this place' and keep doing the same'ol same'ol at Gunsmoke, with a 'silent' new FFL third party partner, well, that seems to be about as half-assed as possible, not intelligent and covering one's fourth point of contact.
Seems he had a a few ways out, and decided to ignore all of them.
I am purposely not trying to get into a should this or that even be legal or a law or whatever in the first place as that is a whole 'nother universe of complication, not out of spite or something.
Again, the assumption is being made that all he is doing is selling off inventory, but I see no claim of that from Wyatt AFAIK.....all I am seeing is that he was continuing to run his business, but with some attempt to use an FFL that was not his. IDK.
I think the only thing here is the guy was still in possession of his shop, if he took everything to his house and sold it on gunbroker nobody here would see anything wrong with it. The problem is, still having your rental property doesn't magically make you a criminal.
Except he continued to buy guns to replenish inventory.... and, what about this...... guy comes in.. 'hey do you have a X?' .. 'Nope, but I'll get you one by Friday'.
Also he was not acting as a Broker. He was acting as a Seller. A Broker takes a fee for bringing a Buyer and Seller together and closing the deal in a legal manner. In a sense, you could say that his GunSmoke Store was a Broker, BUT, he was Selling in the store as the same entity. In other professions this is akin to co-mingling, or conflict of interest, or failure to disclose, lack of public protection. Most licenses have some element to them that protects the public.
Now let's say he was discloses and tried to protect. He said ok look, I'm not an FFL. GunSmoke is set up to Broker or bring buyers and sellers together. I own GunSmoke. Also I am a Seller but I don't have an FFL. I am the sole Seller with GunSmoke so I only Broker deals with myself and any buyer. When you buy a gun from me it's exactly the same as buying from an FFL but I don't have an FFL, so the last step of the deal is, after GunSmoke(Me) Brokers the deal through it's public signage and storefront, through it's single Seller(Me), then I, the Seller transfer the gun to you the Buyer ETA: via a 3rd party FFL.
So he as GunSmoke Broker was not arrested.
As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and
sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast,
if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal
collection, you do not need to be licensed.
Courts have identified several factors relevant to determining on
which side of that line your activities may fall, including: whether
you represent yourself as a dealer in firearms; whether you are
repetitively buying and selling firearms; the circumstances under
which you are selling firearms; and whether you are looking to make
a profit. Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant
indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a
license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or
two transactions took place, when other factors were also present.
https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download
This guy simply meets all the tests. If he were a...
Lawyer
Doctor
Real estate Broker or Appraiser
Massage Therapist
Hair Dresser
Pilot
Contractor
You Name It --- I can't think of any licensed profession where you could get away with clear "other factors present" that this guy has.
You walk 100 people past that store and ask them,, do you think that is a firearms salesman? All 100 will say yes. Ask them why "Because he has a gun store and he buys and sells guns with his family as his means to make a living"
My understanding is, even if you are an FFL, you cannot sell guns that you do not possess, and that are not in your books. Buds, CTD, and some others, got in trouble for this. Basically, they were selling stuff, taking the payments, and some one else was drop-shipping the firearms. ATF would allow this only if the payment was made directly to the FFL who possessed the firearms.
I've only read this thread, so have only seen the article's posted here.
I am a gunsmith at a ffl, and we are an 07/sot.
First of all, one of the articles said that gunsmoke was continuing to receive firearms for gunsmithing. This requires an ffl by law. If the firearms stay overnight, they must be entered into the bound book. So, without an ffl, the business is in direct violation.
Even if he had some deal with another ffl, if gunsmithing is being performed at the gunsmoke location, it still must have an ffl. Every separate premises must have one for that location.
If he is ordering guns from distributors into the shop, they will not send them unless they believe he has an ffl, and in fact have a copy. Once it expires, they will stop sending guns until a new one is sent. If he turned his ffl in, but did not tell the distributors, or they did not go to the atf site to verify it (kind of unlikely), then they don't know until the expiration date, when they cut him off.
As far as the other shop goes, if they ordered the guns, and then gave them to gunsmoke, they must log them into their books upon receipt, and out, to either another ffl, or by 4473 to an individual. If atf walks in the door and demands to see guns in the books, and they are not on the premises, there's going to be a problem. If triggers is running sales from both locations, then two separate ffls are required, one for each location. The only way to change the address is to submit a change of address to atf, but essentially, you are getting a new one with the same company name but a different address, while closing the old address.
Yes, he could keep his store and sell accessories. Yes, he could've sold the guns that were in possession of the business when the ffl ended.
Acquiring more guns, for the purpose of sale at a profit, and/or taking possession of guns for gunsmithing is a violation.
Don't know about the tax stuff, that's not what I do.
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ColtSeavers
02-15-16, 11:58
I've only read this thread, so have only seen the article's posted here.
I am a gunsmith at a ffl, and we are an 07/sot.
First of all, one of the articles said that gunsmoke was continuing to receive firearms for gunsmithing. This requires an ffl by law. If the firearms stay overnight, they must be entered into the bound book. So, without an ffl, the business is in direct violation.
Even if he had some deal with another ffl, if gunsmithing is being performed at the gunsmoke location, it still must have an ffl. Every separate premises must have one for that location.
If he is ordering guns from distributors into the shop, they will not send them unless they believe he has an ffl, and in fact have a copy. Once it expires, they will stop sending guns until a new one is sent. If he turned his ffl in, but did not tell the distributors, or they did not go to the atf site to verify it (kind of unlikely), then they don't know until the expiration date, when they cut him off.
As far as the other shop goes, if they ordered the guns, and then gave them to gunsmoke, they must log them into their books upon receipt, and out, to either another ffl, or by 4473 to an individual. If atf walks in the door and demands to see guns in the books, and they are not on the premises, there's going to be a problem. If triggers is running sales from both locations, then two separate ffls are required, one for each location. The only way to change the address is to submit a change of address to atf, but essentially, you are getting a new one with the same company name but a different address, while closing the old address.
Yes, he could keep his store and sell accessories. Yes, he could've sold the guns that were in possession of the business when the ffl ended.
Acquiring more guns, for the purpose of sale at a profit, and/or taking possession of guns for gunsmithing is a violation.
Don't know about the tax stuff, that's not what I do.
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Thank you for this extra insight.
I've only read this thread, so have only seen the article's posted here.
I am a gunsmith at a ffl, and we are an 07/sot.
First of all, one of the articles said that gunsmoke was continuing to receive firearms for gunsmithing. This requires an ffl by law. If the firearms stay overnight, they must be entered into the bound book. So, without an ffl, the business is in direct violation.
Even if he had some deal with another ffl, if gunsmithing is being performed at the gunsmoke location, it still must have an ffl. Every separate premises must have one for that location.
If he is ordering guns from distributors into the shop, they will not send them unless they believe he has an ffl, and in fact have a copy. Once it expires, they will stop sending guns until a new one is sent. If he turned his ffl in, but did not tell the distributors, or they did not go to the atf site to verify it (kind of unlikely), then they don't know until the expiration date, when they cut him off.
As far as the other shop goes, if they ordered the guns, and then gave them to gunsmoke, they must log them into their books upon receipt, and out, to either another ffl, or by 4473 to an individual. If atf walks in the door and demands to see guns in the books, and they are not on the premises, there's going to be a problem. If triggers is running sales from both locations, then two separate ffls are required, one for each location. The only way to change the address is to submit a change of address to atf, but essentially, you are getting a new one with the same company name but a different address, while closing the old address.
Yes, he could keep his store and sell accessories. Yes, he could've sold the guns that were in possession of the business when the ffl ended.
Acquiring more guns, for the purpose of sale at a profit, and/or taking possession of guns for gunsmithing is a violation.
Don't know about the tax stuff, that's not what I do.
Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk
In regards to the bolded section, this from an earlier article:
After losing his FFL, the defendant did not apply for or obtain a license to sell firearms from the Gunsmoke premises. Wyatt held a meeting the day before losing his license with his employees to describe how he wanted the business to continue to run. During April 1, 2013 to March 31, 2015, no other person was licensed to engage in the business of dealing in firearms at Gunsmoke, Wyatt directed Gunsmoke employees to enter firearm sales in Gunsmoke’s computer point of sales software system as “miscellaneous” sales rather than firearm sales. Customers who shopped at Gunsmoke were able to look at numerous firearms that were displayed throughout the store. Customers were able to speak with Gunsmoke employees, including Wyatt, about the features of particular firearms. Finally, customers selected and purchased firearms from Gunsmoke, and were able to have gunsmithing services performed on firearms at the Gunsmoke premises. After receiving payment for any firearms, Gunsmoke employees directed the customers to another firearm store which had a valid federal firearms license, where the customer filled out the background check paperwork and the customers took possession of the firearm(s) they had purchased at Gunsmoke. Customers who wanted gunsmithing services left their firearms with Gunsmoke. After the gunsmiths at Gunsmoke completed their work, they returned the firearms to the customers. The customers paid Gunsmoke directly for this service. Wyatt, without the FFL license, continued to order new guns for sale to keep the business going.
My understanding is, even if you are an FFL, you cannot sell guns that you do not possess, and that are not in your books. Buds, CTD, and some others, got in trouble for this. Basically, they were selling stuff, taking the payments, and some one else was drop-shipping the firearms. ATF would allow this only if the payment was made directly to the FFL who possessed the firearms.
You're understanding is incorrect. I special order guns all the time. In fact, this is quite common with NFA stuff as most dealers doing have unlimited inventory.
I've only read this thread, so have only seen the article's posted here.
I am a gunsmith at a ffl, and we are an 07/sot.
First of all, one of the articles said that gunsmoke was continuing to receive firearms for gunsmithing. This requires an ffl by law. If the firearms stay overnight, they must be entered into the bound book. So, without an ffl, the business is in direct violation.
Even if he had some deal with another ffl, if gunsmithing is being performed at the gunsmoke location, it still must have an ffl. Every separate premises must have one for that location.
If he is ordering guns from distributors into the shop, they will not send them unless they believe he has an ffl, and in fact have a copy. Once it expires, they will stop sending guns until a new one is sent. If he turned his ffl in, but did not tell the distributors, or they did not go to the atf site to verify it (kind of unlikely), then they don't know until the expiration date, when they cut him off.
As far as the other shop goes, if they ordered the guns, and then gave them to gunsmoke, they must log them into their books upon receipt, and out, to either another ffl, or by 4473 to an individual. If atf walks in the door and demands to see guns in the books, and they are not on the premises, there's going to be a problem. If triggers is running sales from both locations, then two separate ffls are required, one for each location. The only way to change the address is to submit a change of address to atf, but essentially, you are getting a new one with the same company name but a different address, while closing the old address.
Yes, he could keep his store and sell accessories. Yes, he could've sold the guns that were in possession of the business when the ffl ended.
Acquiring more guns, for the purpose of sale at a profit, and/or taking possession of guns for gunsmithing is a violation.
Don't know about the tax stuff, that's not what I do.
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If true, that would actually be a violation. You are correct.
She's like in her 20s by now.
Kind of a Barbie but hey....yolo.
Still funny how the ogre looking hamfist basement gunsmith guy would be all perving over her on national TV.
I think that was kinda the whole point. Kinda like Howard and Penny on the 1st couple seasons of Big Bang Theory.
Averageman
02-15-16, 23:44
I watched the show a couple of times, I wasn't impressed.
The Guy is a Carnival Huckster at best and I'm betting since the SHTF the wife and daughter have moved on to greener pastures, that the kind of way it works for those guys.
Is it right, for the life of me I don't see why. He was pretty much a show room and refering people to FFL's for the exact sale. He let people finger the guns at his place and acted as a broker for an FFL.
I'm sure we've got bigger legitimate fish for the BATFE to fry, but that's not the agenda is it?
Yes, the bolded section was what I was referring to. While I don't know of anyone doing this, if you turned in your ffl to atf, prior to its expiration, you could still order guns from distributors who had your not yet expired ffl on file, or you could send copies of it to other distributors so as to order guns. Once the expiration date arrives, you'd be cut off, unless you can provide a renewed one, or at least a falsified new one, that they don't double check.
Atf has on their website a checking process where you enter part of the ffl#, and it will tell you if the ffl is valid, and for whom.
The gunsmithing part is true. It is clearly printed in the firearms handbook put out by atf.
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Yes, the bolded section was what I was referring to. While I don't know of anyone doing this, if you turned in your ffl to atf, prior to its expiration, you could still order guns from distributors who had your not yet expired ffl on file, or you could send copies of it to other distributors so as to order guns. Once the expiration date arrives, you'd be cut off, unless you can provide a renewed one, or at least a falsified new one, that they don't double check.
Atf has on their website a checking process where you enter part of the ffl#, and it will tell you if the ffl is valid, and for whom.
The gunsmithing part is true. It is clearly printed in the firearms handbook put out by atf.
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Yes, but according to ATF it was even worse than that, he allegedly falsified records relating to the Triggers FFL, of which he was not a managing member, etc. Wish we had more info to go off of, but it really looks like he was trying to get around the law.
That could have been how he kept getting guns. Since, from the dates, it looks like he would have to have falsified something to keep getting guns in.
He could've acquired a copy of triggers ffl, and made a false one.
Who knows exactly, since we only know what we've been told, and certainly, this is an ongoing investigation. More will certainly come out with time. With what I've seen so far, if it's true, he's already in violation of several things. Of course, since he had an ffl at one time, there will be no "ignorance of the law" excuse, he would've known better, and did it anyway.
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That could have been how he kept getting guns. Since, from the dates, it looks like he would have to have falsified something to keep getting guns in.
He could've acquired a copy of triggers ffl, and made a false one.
Who knows exactly, since we only know what we've been told, and certainly, this is an ongoing investigation. More will certainly come out with time. With what I've seen so far, if it's true, he's already in violation of several things. Of course, since he had an ffl at one time, there will be no "ignorance of the law" excuse, he would've known better, and did it anyway.
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Or simply ordered the guns from triggers that he needed, or even easier just functioned as a salesman. Of course if he was really smart, he'd have simply had his wife pull a FFL for their existing location. Could have just called it "Gunsmoke II."
Update to this saga:
Gun store owner and reality show star Richard Wyatt appeared in a Denver federal court Tuesday to plead not guilty to violating federal gun and tax laws.
After posting a $25,000 bond, Wyatt, whose store Gunsmoke Guns was the backdrop for Discovery Channel’s short lived American Guns, was ordered to live at a halfway house while out on release, according to an order from the judge overseeing the case.
The judge schedule Wyatt’s 10-day trial to begin April 18 with pretrial motions set for April 14.
http://www.guns.com/2016/02/17/american-guns-star-pleads-not-guilty-sent-to-halfway-house/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=56c9e60b04d30165240d3483&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook
Sounds like he's an all round nice guy.
Just a couple weeks after the search, local authorities arrested Wyatt for stealing from an “at risk adult.” Authorities said the victim had consigned a rare and antique gun collection with Gunsmoke in 2013, but Wyatt failed to return the items.
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