View Full Version : New to 1911s w/ questions SA vs Colt
I’ve been researching 1911s for a few months in preparation for my first 1911 purchase. I'm a Glock guy, but have always been interested in 1911s and have shot them on a number of occasions. I’ve read most of the threads here and on other sites regarding 1911s in addition to some of the 1911 articles from LAV.
The purpose of my purchase is mainly to so I can own a 1911, shoot the heck out of it and learn the ins and outs of the system. I'd also like to be able to use it for HD if needed, but I don't foresee using it for CCW. My current budget available is around $1,500 for the pistol, but I don't necessarily need to spend that much. By the same token, if I decide to go above that amount, I don't mind waiting a few months to make the purchase either.
My plan initially was get a solid 1911 as a base for future modifications after I'm able to shoot it and find out exactly what I like. I do know that I want to go full sized, with a rail and an ambi thumb safety at a minimum. At this point I've narrowed my choices down to either a Springfield Operator or a Colt rail gun of one variety or another. I've read a lot of the threads on "SA vs Colt" and I think I'd be more than satisfied with either. Here are a few specific 1911 noob questions I haven't found good answers to . For the purposes listed:
- Will I notice any difference between the 70 series (SA) and the 80 series (Colt)? Aside from personal preferences, is one better to start off with vs the other?
- Are there benefits to a carbon steel frame (SA) vs a stainless steel frame (Colt) when in comes to durability?
- If I deviate from a basic model and take a step up to a Loaded Operator, or maybe even a Colt CQBP from their Custom Shop, is the work from the SA Custom Shop comparable to the work from the Colt Custom Shop? I've handled booth, but can't really spot the differences.
Thanks in advance for everyone's advice.
70 vs 80 Series? You won't notice a difference. With either, you'll find the trigger pull quite a treat compared to a Glock; not to say Glock's trigger is bad, just different.
Carbon vs. Stainless? No durability differences. I suspect we're talking .45ACP here. At ~$400/thousand; 20K rounds will be a cost of $8,000. This doesn't mean the 1911 wears out at 20K rounds. I'm just saying the price of the gun is minimal compared to ammo costs. With any 1911, small parts may break, wear out, or need buying. For instance: recoil springs, ammo, holsters, mags, grips, slide-stops, thumb-safeties, and other parts on a case-by-case basis. Back to stainless. In the past, there were isolated "galling" issues, but these issues have now been mitigated or eliminated.
Loaded Operator vs Colt CQBP. I'm not going to search for these specific guns on the web. Links would have helped, but I'll answer with what I already know. The Colt CQBP has a different rail profile and is somewhat larger in execution. It'll have a dual recoil spring arrangement, although this could be easily changed for the simpler standard single coil design. I don't know how hard it is to get the dual recoil springs as replacements or how long they last.
You only said you wanted a 1911 with a rail. I don't quite understand what you mean by a "step up to a Loaded Operator". I believe Springfield has ~5 full size railed models, the top of the line being the PC9111LR Professional, which will typically be closer to $3K or a bit less, but with up to a ~18 month wait. The lower end being an MC Operator, unless the name was changed.
Springfield-Armory has really made its "Custom Shop" an entity in itself by offering the fitting of various aftermarket parts to the customer's desires. I'm unaware Colt's shop is at the level of building guns to that degree to the customer's specs.
I've no idea on the two shop's wait/lead times either, but with some reading, it seems Colt's shop has a slower turnaround time for Colt's Custom Shop packages.
Get the pistol as close as you can to what you want from the very beginning. With all that said, both "Custom Shops" apparently do good work.
No answers to your specific questions, but if I was looking for my first 1911 right now, I'd definitely go for Colt's new Combat Unit pistol. Add Wilson's Bullet Proof ambi safety and you're set.
As for the custom shops, my research about a year ago showed SACS to be faster and offer more options, which is why my rail gun is there now. Can't speak for models that either produce though.
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Loaded Operator vs Colt CQBP. I'm not going to search for these specific guns on the web. Links would have helped, but I'll answer with what I already know. The Colt CQBP has a different rail profile and is somewhat larger in execution. It'll have a dual recoil spring arrangement, although this could be easily changed for the simpler standard single coil design. I don't know how hard it is to get the dual recoil springs as replacements or how long they last.
You only said you wanted a 1911 with a rail. I don't quite understand what you mean by a "step up to a Loaded Operator". I believe Springfield has ~5 full size railed models, the top of the line being the PC9111LR Professional, which will typically be closer to $3K or a bit less, but with up to a ~18 month wait. The lower end being an MC Operator, unless the name was changed.
Sorry for the confusion. For the Colt, they offer a Standard CQBP as well as one assembled by their custom shop.
http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Pistols/RailGun.aspx
http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Pistols/CQBP-CloseQuarterBattlePistol.aspx
For the SA their Loaded Series of Operators offer some custom shop enhancements over their Ranger Officer Operator.
http://www.springfield-armory.com/products/1911-loaded-45-acp/
http://www.springfield-armory.com/products/1911-range-officer-45-acp/
The question I was really getting at was if those extra up grades are the way to go and if the two custom shop do approximately the same work. It sounds like the SA custom shop might be the leader. I appreciate your input.
Nightstalker865
02-17-16, 06:34
I'm a huge Springfield 1911 fan and up until last month I would have told you to go that route. In my opinion, Colt has finally stepped up to the plate with the new Combat Unit model Wake27 mentioned. If I were buying right now, it would be at the top of my list in the sub $1500 price point.
37810
No answers to your specific questions, but if I was looking for my first 1911 right now, I'd definitely go for Colt's new Combat Unit pistol. Add Wilson's Bullet Proof ambi safety and you're set.
As for the custom shops, my research about a year ago showed SACS to be faster and offer more options, which is why my rail gun is there now. Can't speak for models that either produce though.
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I'm definitely look out for a Combat Unit. Good to know about the SACS.
I'm a huge Springfield 1911 fan and up until last month I would have told you to go that route. In my opinion, Colt has finally stepped up to the plate with the new Combat Unit model Wake27 mentioned. If I were buying right now, it would be at the top of my list in the sub $1500 price point.
37810
Aside from the checkered front strap and under cut trigger guard are there any other advantages the Combat unit has over say a SA Loaded Black Operator? From the spec sheets they seem pretty similar.
http://http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Pistols/ColtCombatUnitRailGun.aspx
http://http://www.springfield-armory.com/products/1911-loaded-45-acp/
The generic 2015 Colt Rail Gun is fantastic. For the extra money for the Marine production version you essentially get night sights, different grips, and an ionbond finish. Going up to the custom shop CRG gets you additional checkering and presimably better fitting. The regular CRG, however, is an excellent pistol for the price, $1000-1100.
Since this is your first 1911, I would get the base model CRG, and a bunch of Wilson 47D magazines. Shoot it for a while to see what you like or dislike about it, then send it to a place like Mars Armament or Alchemy to be customized for your wants/needs.
Both Springfield and Colt are good base guns to start a custom build. The difference is the firing pin safety (I prefer having it), and the Springfield does not have a pinned ejector. Both of these things are minor. Colt is also made almost entirely in house. Springfield sources parts and frames and frame blanks from Imbel. While Imbel makes good forgings, they are still not American.
While I do not have the exact models you are looking at, mine are pretty close. Springfield MC Operator and Colt M45A1, and I shoot the hell out of them every chance I get.
With the modern metallurgy, stainless is a non issue compared to what it used to be. The galling issues that once plagued stainless guns seems to be a thing of the past for the most part and Colts stainless forgings are some of the best.
Series 70 vs. 80 is probably going to be a matter of choice since you don't plan on carry. But on a carry gun, personally, I think the series 80 has some advantage. If your trigger finger can tell the difference, then you are a better man than me, because I can't.
SACS and CCS are some of the best kept secrets in the 1911 realm, so that one would be a draw.
Colts hold their value better.
Not being contrary to what Kyohte said above, as he may be right. But, my understanding is that SA offerings are now 100% American, but as to "where and who" does the forgings, there is a lot of secrecy for some reason, so kinda a trust but verify type of thing.
Colts are truer to spec as far technical stuff goes. I.E pinned ejectors, bow tie cuts, feed ramp angle blah blah blah. Not saying there as anything wrong with how SA does up a 1911, but there are a few things that I would correct, but trust me they are very minor and arguably a personal thing.
Both my SA MC and Colt M45 have been stupid reliable and more accurate than they should be.
Colts new rail set up is bigger from the dimensional aspect. Holster availability is not as great if that is a consideration.
The current offerings from both companies are probably the best guns each have made in years.
Personally, I don't envy your choice. Both models you are looking at are pretty damn solid pistols in their own respective right and either would probably serve you well. But, if I was forced to make the decision TODAY and wanted/could only have one, I would probably lean heavily towards the Colt Combat Unit and fit up an ambi safety and call it a day.
Best of luck,
$1,500 can get you a TRP Operator. I'd go that route. I own both the M45 CQBP and the TRP Operator, and would endorse the SA offering over the Colt. While Colt has the brand recognition, you absolutely get more for your money with a SA.
I detect a distinct, carrot like break with the M45 (Series 80) versus the glass rod break with the TRP (series 70).
Idk about the Combat Pistol, but both the M45 and the CRG I've handled has had very sharp edges on the safety, noticeably digging in to the web of my thumb while handling. Also no front strap checkering on the M45 which I really do not like.
At the lower ($1150) price point, I'd handle both the SA Loaded Operator and the CRG side by side. See what you like.
$1,500 can get you a TRP Operator. I'd go that route. I own both the M45 CQBP and the TRP Operator, and would endorse the SA offering over the Colt. While Colt has the brand recognition, you absolutely get more for your money with a SA.
I detect a distinct, carrot like break with the M45 (Series 80) versus the glass rod break with the TRP (series 70).
Idk about the Combat Pistol, but both the M45 and the CRG I've handled has had very sharp edges on the safety, noticeably digging in to the web of my thumb while handling. Also no front strap checkering on the M45 which I really do not like.
At the lower ($1150) price point, I'd handle both the SA Loaded Operator and the CRG side by side. See what you like.
I appreciate all of the input! I've looked the TRP, it's definitely nice, but I don't really care for the feel of the checkering on the front strap. I think I'd prefer a smooth front strap. That said, I do like the feel of the "Octo-grip" front strap texture on the newer SA MC Operator. One thing I like about the Colts is the under cut trigger.
I appreciate all of the input! I've looked the TRP, it's definitely nice, but I don't really care for the feel of the checkering on the front strap. I think I'd prefer a smooth front strap. That said, I do like the feel of the "Octo-grip" front strap texture on the newer SA MC Operator. One thing I like about the Colts is the under cut trigger guard.
Getting the either the Loaded Operator or CRG I can customizing it after a bit. The SA Custom can add the Octo-grip or undercut the trigger guard as needed.
My first 1911 was an impulse buy ria. Fine beater gun, then I bought a trp operator talk about night and day. The ria is a smooth front strap, but after 1000 rds I realized I didn't like it and put some grip tape on it. Then when I got the trp operator I was not sure I'd like the checkering but I really do. You don't even notice it's there, but it has good grip to it. The trigger breaks smooth, the slide runs like butter and not to mention it's very accurate. If you have the cash, I'd truly recommend it. It's a damn great pistol. The two things I've noticed, it's really finicky on proper grip and if you reload you need to drop test each bullet, it's very tight chambered. Maybe others don't need to, but I do. Good luck on your choice
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Just a quick up date. I've been checking out a lot of 1911s and I really wanted to look at a Colt Rail Gun. I couldn't find one at any of my LGS (not many Colt 1911s at all). So I expanded my search and I was able to find one at a shop near Chicago. Great gun. It seems like the prefect base railed 1911. I decided the CRG would be the way to go, but took me all of about two min to change my mind.
At the same shop, on another shelf displayed with a bunch of Sig 1911s, I came across a Colt M45A1 (production blue box) with the new ion bond FDE/desert sand finish. After checking it out, I was knew it was the one. It felt great in my hand and it had just about all of the features I was looking for. I REALLY dig the ion bond finish, both the color and texture. I know that ion bond is relatively expensive to do ($650 at the Colt Custom Shop) and it wouldn't be something I'd be likely get done on a SA Operator or a standard CRG. So, I'm on board with the M45A1.
This shop was asking $100 over retail for the M45A1, so I didn't make the purchase. I contacted G&R Tactical and Grant had some in stock at a great price. I placed my order and If all goes well I'll be able to pick it up from my FFL next week. I even came in under my original budget.
Congrats on the choice, and for what its worth I think you made a good choice with the Ion bond. My M45 (blue box also) has the cerakote, which chips and flakes just from looking at it. Not much of a worry for me since it is a shooter but the Ion guns are way nicer.
Mine has been a great running piece so far.
Hard to beat Grants prices and service for sure.
Look forward to your thoughts once you get your mits on it.
Congrats on the choice, and for what its worth I think you made a good choice with the Ion bond. My M45 (blue box also) has the cerakote, which chips and flakes just from looking at it. Not much of a worry for me since it is a shooter but the Ion guns are way nicer.
Mine has been a great running piece so far.
Hard to beat Grants prices and service for sure.
Look forward to your thoughts once you get your mits on it.
Thanks! I'm looking forward to picking it up and getting it out to the range. I'll definately share my thoughts on it.
Nightstalker865
03-03-16, 21:56
Excellent choice. Congrats.
Sorry it took me a while to follow up, but I'm really digging the M45. No complaints what so ever. I've fired a variety of ammo (Hornady, Winchester, AE & Blazer Brass) and several magazine (OEM WC, WC ETM, Vickers Duty & a D&H). The only issue was the D&H mag. It appears to me that the spring moves the follower forward in the mag and prevents the slide from locking back on an empty mag. Other than that, everything else was flawless and the gun is way more accurate that I am. The M45 really suits me and it is a heck of a lot of fun to shoot.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t268/korgs130/19cc6efca6172b24b7fbc81b362d4061_zpsohyewydd.jpg
The first 5 rounds out of the box. AE 230 grain at 7.5 yards. I don't have much 1911 experience, but things only got better as I got a better feel for the trigger.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t268/korgs130/1110c763e02fbc5146d4debfe857d70a_zpsw1jckckw.jpg
I hear those are great guns. I'd not heard of D&H mags until now. I see there about half the price of the other mags.
If/when you get around to it, you might try the "Super 7 Upgrade Kit" from TrippResearch which should cure any follower lock-back problems while still salvaging the mag body of the D&H mag: http://www.trippresearch.com/store/store_1911.html
Keep us posted on how your venture into the 1911 goes:) Now, what will be the next 1911?
I now see Springfield-Armory has redone its 1911 product line and it'll be hard for me to remember what they now have without more studying of its website. I wish they'd just put all the "Operators/railed 1911s" on one page. Colt has also made changes to its product line and seems to be dropping its original Rail Gun in favor of the M45A1/CQB railed larger-frame. Availability will be scarce until production and individual dealers' inventory catches up with demand.
Colt has also made changes to its product line and seems to be dropping its original Rail Gun in favor of the M45A1/CQB railed larger-frame. Availability will be scarce until production and individual dealers' inventory catches up with demand.
This change was made some time ago, likely because it was not cost efficient to produce 2 types of railed frames and 2 types of forward slide serrations. It's a good thing, because the M45 beefier frame does address some of the problems associated with the frame and slide cracking.
Local dealers have mentioned a shortage of new rail guns, though I thought they were never that common to begin with.
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