View Full Version : Warsport vs SR15
For the same money, which would you choose? On one hand you have the SR15 which is a proven design and a reputable brand made from very high quality parts. On the other hand you have the Warsport rifles, which by all accounts many consider to be one of the nicest, flat shooting ARs. If prices were equal, which would you pick and why?
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Boba Fett v2
02-18-16, 10:58
For the same money, which would you choose? On one hand you have the SR15 which is a proven design and a reputable brand made from very high quality parts. On the other hand you have the Warsport rifles, which by all accounts many consider to be one of the nicest, flat shooting ARs. If prices were equal, which would you pick and why?
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This isn't even a question. The Stoner Rifle everyday all day.
Eugene Stoner himself had a hand in developing the SR15 and incorporating practical and sensible improvements that make the rifle what it is (funny how f**kface Nut'n'fancy-pants never mentions this in his "review") The Warsport is a pretty neat looking rifle and all, especially in pink I'm sure, but all that low-vis bullcrap and its inability to run suppressed is kind of retarded IMO. And as far as flat shooting, yeah the Stoner Rifle does that too. And you don't need to keep replacing bungees when they burn off.
Now I am a bit biased as I'm definitely a KAC fan boy, but I would pick the SR-15 without question. With a mams on a 14.5" or longer rifle it's imho the softest shooting rifle on the market. I shot one of the Warsport rifles a few months back and it's close in terms of felt recoil, but I still think the KAC is softer.
The Warsport is definitely a departure from the norm and that appeals to some people and I get it, but it just doesn't do it for me. It looks too much like a gamer gun or something derived from Halo, if I wanted that look I'd be looking at Bullpups. Now all of that said I wouldn't fault someone for purchasing the Warpsort stick, it's cool in its own right and it is definitely a nice shooting rifle.
At the end of the day I think KAC has asserted itself as one of the top tier manufacturers in the market and they have one of the nicest if the not "the" nicest factory built AR. I would think that resale would be better and easier with the KAC rifle as well.
Good luck with your decision!
There is no way I would pick a Warsport over a KAC, and I have time behind both and the KAC is hands down the rifle I'd choose.
The engineering behind the SR15 makes it a no-brainer.
Is this a serious question?
Haha I guess I got my answer.
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PatrioticDisorder
02-18-16, 17:49
Haha I guess I got my answer.
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http://ballisticradio.com/endurance-tests/kac-sr-15-mod-2/
PatrioticDisorder
02-18-16, 17:52
This isn't even a question. The Stoner Rifle everyday all day.
Eugene Stoner himself had a hand in developing the SR15 and incorporating practical and sensible improvements that make the rifle what it is (funny how f**kface Nut'n'fancy-pants never mentions this in his "review") The Warsport is a pretty neat looking rifle and all, especially in pink I'm sure, but all that low-vis bullcrap and its inability to run suppressed is kind of retarded IMO. And as far as flat shooting, yeah the Stoner Rifle does that too. And you don't need to keep replacing bungees when they burn off.
I don't think Stoner was involved with the SR-15 development, he was deceased several years before the E3 bolt. He was involved with the SR-25 development.
MichaelVain
02-18-16, 17:56
I had no idea what the Warsport was, just took a look at some of the reviews, pictures, what have you.
It doesn't seem to be a serious use rifle.
I recall the warsport being built for a very specific mission. I don't see any situation where the SR15 wouldn't work.
Boba Fett v2
02-18-16, 18:04
I don't think Stoner was involved with the SR-15 development, he was deceased several years before the E3 bolt. He was involved with the SR-25 development.
I don't think that's accurate neither. Before I purchased a Mod 1 a few years ago I did some homework about how they came up with a E3 bolt design and Eugene was the guy who was directly involved in its development when he was with KAC. http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/knights-sr15-iws-556mm/
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My daughters upper is an SR15 E3 Mod 1 with SF Socom brake, with an Spikes ST-T2 buffer it is very soft shooting. It's topped with a SS HD 1-6 its my favorite rifle I've ever shot. Never shot the LVOA but handled one this past weekend and immediately gave it back to the clerk. For me it felt "over heavy" up front and I didn't care for it. KAC is my vote
IMO
Warsport is a boutique rifle, just there to be pretty. It is a bad looking rifle at that.
Then there's the Knights rifle...that when all those other pretty rifles go to bed, it'll be up working, and conditions it was never meant to be in.
I think they're both great and they'll both probably get the job done as range guns but in the end there's no true comparison.
PatrioticDisorder
02-18-16, 18:27
I don't think that's accurate neither. Before I purchased a Mod 1 a few years ago I did some homework about how they came up with a E3 bolt design and Eugene was the guy who was directly involved in its development when he was with KAC. http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/knights-sr15-iws-556mm/
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Eugene Stoner may have verbalized a desire to fix the bolt on the AR (as it was originally designed for a 20" barrel with rifle length gas system) but he died LONG before the E3 bolt was ever a thing. That is why I don't take anything seriously in gun rags.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Stoner
You can't get as many likes on instafacemedia with a sr15 as you can a warsport. No one will take you seriously. Definitely something to consider. You have to remember trendy for always tums function nowadays.
Do you want a toy or a tool?
Excuse me for any ignorance, but my understanding is that Warsport is really more of a marketing thing than anything? I have never seen one, so I don't know.
After purchasing a SR15 last year I can say there is no hype surrounding this rifle, it is all true. Now I'm planning my second SR and no longer have any interest in any other brand of AR.
You guys made it very easy for me
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Good, that's what were here for, to help each other out. You wont be disappointed, if you are then the AR is probably not for you. I would say let us know how you like it but I think we already know what the answer will be.
Boba Fett v2
02-18-16, 23:26
Eugene Stoner may have verbalized a desire to fix the bolt on the AR (as it was originally designed for a 20" barrel with rifle length gas system) but he died LONG before the E3 bolt was ever a thing. That is why I don't take anything seriously in gun rags.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Stoner
True, but the E3 and other concepts (ambidextrous controls) that were implemented into the SR15 were his brain child. It could be argued that had he not conceptualized what would eventually be developed, tested, and implemented into the SR15, then perhaps maybe KAC wouldn't have become an industry leader in design and innovation that they've become known for. Considering he spent the final years of his life dedicated to finding ways to improve and already proven system (not just the AR10), I think that in itself earns him the honor of being given credit for the development of the SR15. That's all I'm saying.
It is also my understanding, from all the research I've done, that the SR improvements came from E. Stoner. Of course the SR in it's present form did not but the base improvements did (E3 bolt). I believe there are some KAC reps here, maybe they will chime in with more details, I would be interested to know.
PatrioticDisorder
02-18-16, 23:35
True, but the E3 and other concepts (ambidextrous controls) that were implemented into the SR15 were his brain child. It could be argued that had he not conceptualized what would eventually be developed, tested, and implemented into the SR15, then perhaps maybe KAC wouldn't have become an industry leader in design and innovation that they've become known for. Considering he spent the final years of his life dedicated to finding ways to improve and already proven system (not just the AR10), I think that in itself earns him the honor of being given credit for the development of the SR15. That's all I'm saying.
Eugene Stoner's influence at KAC was very strong, no doubt about it.
stahljaeger
02-18-16, 23:39
What is with all the KAC vs boutique "more unnecessary machine work than a scrap practice block in Machining 101" trendy brand of the week threads?
If you just want to post pictures of your gun or attract attention at the range to show of how much you can afford to spend, either gun will work with an edge to the Warsport. However, I think that the SR15 is the only ar pattern rifle that has the functionality to justify the premium cost.
As far as the warsport goes, if you want a "low visibility upper" why don't you just get a good flashhider, instead of wrapping an extra heavy rail around an overpriced, underperforming compensator?
Boba Fett v2
02-18-16, 23:43
Eugene Stoner's influence at KAC was very strong, no doubt about it.
And he has a really awesome last name. ;)
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What is with all the KAC vs boutique "more unnecessary machine work than a scrap practice block in Machining 101" trendy brand of the week threads?
If you just want to post pictures of your gun or attract attention at the range to show of how much you can afford to spend, either gun will work with an edge to the Warsport. However, I think that the SR15 is the only ar pattern rifle that has the functionality to justify the premium cost.
As far as the warsport goes, if you want a "low visibility upper" why don't you just get a good flashhider, instead of wrapping an extra heavy rail around an overpriced, underperforming compensator?
I thought the same thing earlier but then I realized that some one new and inexperienced does not know. I remember a time when I thought Bushmaster was as good as anything, even Colt. Many years later I find it hard to believe that I was ever in such a position. I personally know an older ex-Seal who is quite impressed with Bushmasters and the new boutique brands. I don't have the heart reveal my feelings to him about these brands.
Boba Fett v2
02-19-16, 00:23
I thought the same thing earlier but then I realized that some one new and inexperienced does not know. I remember a time when I thought Bushmaster was as good as anything, even Colt. Many years later I find it hard to believe that I was ever in such a position. I personally know an older ex-Seal who is quite impressed with Bushmasters and the new boutique brands. I don't have the heart reveal my feelings to him about these brands.
My first AR was a DPMS. It only took one range session for me to find out what a POS it was after shit started breaking. We all start somewhere.
A lot of current and former .MIL guys are not gun guys, and SMU guys are no exception. That's why I take it with a grain of salt whenever I hear how "my best friend's cousin's uncle's nephew was a former DEVGRU CAG RECON SEAL and he loves his Delton!"
ETA: I'll give AA a break.
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Rayrevolver
02-19-16, 07:20
Eugene Stoner's influence at KAC was very strong, no doubt about it.
Very long, but lots of good insight, interview with Reed Knight. He does mention Stoner working the SR-15 development.
http://smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1211
GUNSLINGER733
02-19-16, 07:34
SR15 No doubt. I will own on eventually. Warsport is overpriced imo.
SR15 No doubt. I will own on eventually. Warsport is overpriced imo.
Is there anyone who can provide any info on why they think their rifles are worth $3K? I am seeing much in the way of specs on their website, and I honestly would like to know more.
PatrioticDisorder
02-19-16, 07:44
Very long, but lots of good insight, interview with Reed Knight. He does mention Stoner working the SR-15 development.
http://smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1211
Actually the interviewer mentions it, Reed talks about Stoner's ideas & as Fett mentioned concepts like ambi controls from the SR-25 which Stoner was directly involved in made it into the SR-15. Reed picked Stoner's brain well and like I said no doubt Stoner discussed a desire to upgrade the bolt but Stoned died in 1997, E3 bolt made it's first appearance circa 2008, around 11 years after Stoner died.
Warsport is relatively local, so I have seen them quite a bit, and have some time with one. They are good rifles, but I don't know why they are priced as they are...I don't think they are worth the $$.
I thought the same thing earlier but then I realized that some one new and inexperienced does not know. I remember a time when I thought Bushmaster was as good as anything, even Colt. Many years later I find it hard to believe that I was ever in such a position. I personally know an older ex-Seal who is quite impressed with Bushmasters and the new boutique brands. I don't have the heart reveal my feelings to him about these brands.
It is easy to forget but there was a time when Colt lowers were a POS, I am talking over sized pivot pins, sear blocks and then over sized trigger/hammer pins. During that era I would rather have had a Bushmaster lower with a Colt upper so their BS pushed me into frankenguns.
Is there anyone who can provide any info on why they think their rifles are worth $3K? I am seeing much in the way of specs on their website, and I honestly would like to know more.
It does not have to be 'worth' it, it just needs to have a buyer willing to pay the price. Some people are so dumb they'll want to buy it because it is so expensive. To them the price is an indication of quality.
Rayrevolver
02-19-16, 08:31
Actually the interviewer mentions it, Reed talks about Stoner's ideas & as Fett mentioned concepts like ambi controls from the SR-25 which Stoner was directly involved in made it into the SR-15. Reed picked Stoner's brain well and like I said no doubt Stoner discussed a desire to upgrade the bolt but Stoned died in 1997, E3 bolt made it's first appearance circa 2008, around 11 years after Stoner died.
Thread drift continues!
You are making an assumption about when the E3 bolt was actually developed. If KAC followed their SR-25 mantra of COTS parts, the initial SR-15s could have deferred the proprietary parts to save development costs.
A case in point: A few years back people started discussing the POF Roller Cam. It was assumed that POF came up with the design, and then you have the folks who said it was a solution looking for a problem. It was around in 1959! And the carrier looks like an LMT Enhanced with 3 holes!
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd297/armeiro1/MP28II/ar-10a.jpg
All good. I have no dog in this fight. Just pointing out assumptions are made for and against Stoners involvement.
I have experience with the LVOA and the SR15.
Pros for the LVOA
- Sound is forced forward, being next to the compensator isn't as annoying as without their rail
- Attention was paid to assembly, everything is tight, like a Nighthawk
- The old ones used match barrels, I forget the mfg but it was a higher tier but not chrome lined
- A buddy of mine has one at 8k without any cleaning, only lube and it still runs
- Comes with an awesome CMC single stage
Pros for SR15
- Bolts are guaranteed to 20k, KAC has said publicly multiple times they have not had a civilian bolt failure
- Barrels are chrome lined, mine just did a .71 moa group with it with junk 55gr PMC
- Lightweight
- Recoil is about the same as the LVOA with a BCM flash hider, the legacy SR15s felt quite literally like a .22 with a Battlecomp
- Customer service is awesome, the extractor I got with mine was marred and they sent a replacement out immediately and didn't even ask for the old one back
- Mostly ambidextrous
- Comes with awesome sights
- Dual spring extractor
- Ballistic Radio's mod 2 made it to 20k with one malfunction, no cleaning http://ballisticradio.com/endurance-tests/kac-sr-15-mod-2/
Cons for LVOA
- Heavy
- The new ones with their top hat are loud, a lot louder than the ones made with the Battlecomp
- The finish isn't very durable, you will start to see scratches after a few mag changes
- They did not reduce their price when they switched from billet upper / lower to forged
Cons for SR15
- Proprietary barrel nut that will cost a small fortune for their wrench
- Proprietary barrel extension and bolt, you're married to it and to change is expensive
Is there anyone who can provide any info on why they think their rifles are worth $3K? I am seeing much in the way of specs on their website, and I honestly would like to know more.
Chris Costa deep throated the barrel of one once
BufordTJustice
02-19-16, 23:34
Thread drift continues!
You are making an assumption about when the E3 bolt was actually developed. If KAC followed their SR-25 mantra of COTS parts, the initial SR-15s could have deferred the proprietary parts to save development costs.
A case in point: A few years back people started discussing the POF Roller Cam. It was assumed that POF came up with the design, and then you have the folks who said it was a solution looking for a problem. It was around in 1959! And the carrier looks like an LMT Enhanced with 3 holes!
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd297/armeiro1/MP28II/ar-10a.jpg
All good. I have no dog in this fight. Just pointing out assumptions are made for and against Stoners involvement.
I wish somebody made extended length gas keys like that for the AR15 platform. Would serve to reduce gas in the face while suppressed at the cost, if you will, of very slightly increased gas drive. I make that trade for a cleaner receiver and less gas to face with a can.
Whats up with the Warsport rail wrapped with bungie cord?
PrivateCitizen
02-20-16, 10:44
Whats up with the Warsport rail wrapped with bungie cord?
I think it is the latest kool-kid "grip" trend on slick side (KeyMOD or MLOK) rails. Probably works if you needed an immediate solution but seems to me it is more likely posing for "authenticity." I might also be completely ignorant.
Whats up with the Warsport rail wrapped with bungie cord?
Because it's a toy. Toys don't need to be functional, or durable, they just have to look cool on a magazine cover
Whats up with the Warsport rail wrapped with bungie cord?
It help to validate claims of "custom" 'cause someone has to wrap that stuff up.
Find ManBearPig!
02-20-16, 21:15
While we are comparing the differences between these companies, I'd like to point to the fact most of what you need to know can be inferred from the names themselves.
KAC stands for Knights Armament Company. What is KAC? It's an company that designs and sells arms, and was founded by and is currently owned by the Knight family. The name may not be flashy, but it is very effective at telling you everything you need to know.
Warsport? What is that even supposed to mean? Now, if they where company dedicated to producing sporting rifles, the name would make more sense. But they aren't. According to their website: "Our Purpose is to provide both superior quality Advanced Weapons Systems and to develop products for Low Visibility Operation / Applications for the modern war fighter." Last I checked, fighting wars isn't a "sport"...
Now to be fair, I don't have any personal experience with War Sport stuff (besides from ogling one on the wall at Ranier Arms). And it also doesn't seem right to simply write off a company just because of their poor choice in naming themselves. So perhaps they really do make great stuff. But much of what they are putting out now seems to be more form, and less function. As I said, I could be wrong, but Warsport is going to have to do a lot of proving of itself before it can confidently say their stuff is worth the price of admission. Meanwhile, on KAC's side, they seem to be in the same boat as every other high end manufacturer putting out world class stuff- the only thing people ever seem to really complain about is the cost. KAC has also been around for a long time, and their is no reason to expect them to not stick around for a lot longer as well. As for Warsport... who knows where they will be in ten years? If they go under, and you need a special part, what are you going to do? It seems like the overwhelmingly safe choice is KAC, as basically everyone else in this thread has already said.
"Warsport" the name alone is a joke. Why would anyone take their products seriously? Other than mall ninjas of coarse...
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We're tearing apart the names now?
That seems a little childish.
No one is arguing the KAC superiority, but grown men debating names is dumb.
Does the name make it deadlier, or increase its merit in any way? Who cares of their called the Hello Kitty rifle and the My little pony glitter sprinkler. Does it matter when your staring down the barrel?
New forum low.
We're tearing apart the names now?
That seems a little childish.
No one is arguing the KAC superiority, but grown men debating names is dumb.
Does the name make it deadlier, or increase its merit in any way? Who cares of their called the Hello Kitty rifle and the My little pony glitter sprinkler. Does it matter when your staring down the barrel?
New forum low.
Really?! A professional portrays themselves professionally in name and in image... There's no sport in war. There's no sport in shooting 13yo conscripts with AKs... Video game name, video game image. If you want to be taken seriously you need not get your company name from teenagers playing video games. Period. Hard Stop.
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Really?! A professional portrays themselves professionally in name and in image... There's no sport in war. There's no sport in shooting 13yo conscripts with AKs... Video game name, video game image. If you want to be taken seriously you need not get your company name from teenagers playing video games. Period. Hard Stop.
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Who do you think the target demographic is for the Warsport? What's wrong with the name when your peddling Instagram likes and hoping for a spot in the next call of duty game?
Seems they hit the nail on the head.
Who do you think the target demographic is for the Warsport? What's wrong with the name when your peddling Instagram likes and hoping for a spot in the next call of duty game?
Good for them then. But I wouldn't buy a gun from them or BA from Target... I have no time for gimmicks and this isn't the forum for their gimmicky product. This is a forum where ADULTS talk about products they would use to defend their lives or the lives of others.
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Good for them then. But I wouldn't buy a gun from them or BA from Target... I have no time for gimmicks and this isn't the forum for their gimmicky product. This is a forum where ADULTS talk about products they disagree with the names of.
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I think that's what you meant to say.
If we had times for the gimmick perhaps at least one person would have suggested the Warsport over the KAC.
You act like I care what the name is if your care to look your the second person tearing apart the name. I could careless what that damn thing are called function means more.
So you may not have time for gimmicks but you have the time to care what those gimmicks are called. Seems a little ironic.
Edit:
I always thought this forum was about functionality, and not about names of products. Grown men shouldn't care about the name as long as the tool gets the job done.
I sell a product everyday, that product is my people and their professionalism, thier quality and delivery of care. And we reflect that in name. Warsport could have easily been "War Ready" or "War Tough" or "War Proven" and sounded gtg. Name is often the first thing a potential client hears or sees. And you may only get that one chance to get them to look more into your product. If you don't take yourself seriously why should I?
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I sell a product everyday, that product is my people and their professionalism, thier quality and delivery of care. And we reflect that in name. Warsport could have easily been "War Ready" or "War Tough" or "War Proven" and sounded gtg. Name is often the first thing a potential client hears or sees. And you may only get that one chance to get them to look more into your product. If you don't take yourself seriously why should I?
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Let me ask you one question then I'm out of this.
Let's start with a hypothetical here: you have no idea who Eugene Stoner is, and you have never seen of or heard of either rifle.
Some one ask you if you want the Warsport or the Stoner rifle based off name alone. Which sounds better to you? Which sounds more professional to someone who wants a war horse? Does the name matter at all? Which should be taken more seriously?
To me, No. Function trumps all.
Warsport is not a man's name, Stoner is an old English name for a rock mason...
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GUNSLINGER733
02-20-16, 23:53
I have never held a Warsport only seen pics and have read specs/reviews. I appreciate quality machine work and aesthetics. I still do not see the lvoa being so expensive. I think my BCM and Noveske parts are dope. Does everything I need it to do. Anyway I have held a SR15 and didn't have the money at the time I almost walked out with it. Next time I run across one I will own one. The fit and finish in it looked very good and it felt awesome. It was well balanced and like stated before sights are perfect. It was $2300 at the time. I have seen them as low as $1800 online. With that being said I could buy sr15 and a Aimpoint with mount for less than a Warsport and have a weapon I feel like will last longer. In the end whomever is forking out the cash will have to decide is it worth it.
Tophthetank
02-21-16, 15:10
I have a KAC 14.5 and HAD a WS SBR.
IMO the WS is overpriced, heavy rail, couldn't attach a suppressor, sub par coating, the low vis hocus pocus. On top of that, my lower would not drop GI mags freely and after sending it in it still doesn't. I also had a minor issue when sending the rifle back to switch out comps which left a sour taste in my mouth...
eventually sold the upper now working on selling the lower. The most money I've spent on a AR then losing a ton on, one of my biggest regrets. Just my personal experience...however it did shoot great and had a good barrel.
Well the KAC wins lol
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I have a KAC 14.5 and HAD a WS SBR.
IMO the WS is overpriced, heavy rail, couldn't attach a suppressor, sub par coating, the low vis hocus pocus. On top of that, my lower would not drop GI mags freely and after sending it in it still doesn't. I also had a minor issue when sending the rifle back to switch out comps which left a sour taste in my mouth...
eventually sold the upper now working on selling the lower. The most money I've spent on a AR then losing a ton on, one of my biggest regrets. Just my personal experience...however it did shoot great and had a good barrel.
I've held the rail off the upper. It's super lightweight, the weight on the upper comes from the barrel.
Don't know anything about Warsport or ever heard of them before this thread. A quick google photo search and it looks like they produce nice guns, but nothing original.
37886 looks a lot like the Noveske Johnny rifle 37887
37888 looks a lot like the Salient Arms GRY 37889
That is just my observation and probably doesn't reflect other peoples views.
Torquetard
03-03-16, 16:44
Warsport looks really cool right now, IMO,. but will probably look goofy in a few years, whereas the SR15 is a timeless classic .
It looks cool? Abomination more like.
Don't know anything about Warsport or ever heard of them before this thread. A quick google photo search and it looks like they produce nice guns, but nothing original.
37886 looks a lot like the Noveske Johnny rifle 37887
37888 looks a lot like the Salient Arms GRY 37889
That is just my observation and probably doesn't reflect other peoples views.
Salient licensed/procured hand guards from War Sport at one point, the LVOA existed well in advance of the Salient rifle. I don't personally see the the connection on the other one, but they're both green-ish and have scopes I suppose.
ExplorinInTheWoods
03-03-16, 19:56
My buddy bought a warsport off his brother, his brother had to send it back 3 times before they put on a new upper with their new comp. Now it shoots big fire balls, so much for low viz. I want to shoot it to see how flat it really is, I personally don't like the look, lack of suppressor use, or their price tag. My buddy think it's the kitties titties but he also likes salient glocks, but not agency oddly enough. I personally think those are instagram gun. Yeah a lot of time has been put into making those guns and adding all sorts of extra stuff but their price tags are outrageous. But people like them because they're all over social media there are only a handful of them. It's the exclusivity thing.
Considering WarSport appears to be nothing but a Diamondback rail and off the shelf components fitted together, I'd be getting me a Knight's.
Other than the weird handguard setup and the goofy ass paracord wrap, the Warsport is a pretty unremarkable rifle with all the aesthetic charm of a SMLE, and something very similar could be built for not much more than a grand. Their strategy has been to set a high price point and drive sales to mostly low-information buyers by heavy advertising with gun "celebrities," publications, and social media.
The KAC on the other hand delivers several legit functional improvements to the AR design, and you cannot build or buy one like it anywhere else. It actually gives you some value added for the price you pay.
Well let's go one more round. Noveske vs SR15, and go
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Well let's go one more round. Noveske vs SR15, and go
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I could really go all in on this one...but I'll be nice to the fan boys and keep it simple. SR15. Pretty much the SR15 over everybody. There isn't anybody who I would choose over the SR15 if the chance were available to me. I don't see anybody who offers anything that can compare to the SR15. The reason SR15 aren't in everybody's safes is there generally out of most people's price range. IMO they are the king of the game.
When are the 14.5s coming out of this. (http://www.smallarmsales.com/knights-armament-sr-15-iws-e3-mod2-16-carbine-m-lok-handguard/)
Well let's go one more round. Noveske vs SR15, and go
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It doesn't matter what you compare to an SR15, the SR15 wins
It doesn't matter what you compare to an SR15, the SR15 wins
Boom. End of thread.
hotrodder636
03-06-16, 21:51
38200
It doesn't matter what you compare to an SR15, the SR15 wins
Boba Fett v2
03-06-16, 21:55
38200
"Drops the mic"
(for those who are "hip" challenged... and there are alotta ya)
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From my understanding Warsports batch test their barrels (as oppose to KAC who individual test each barrel) and you're shelling out 3k for that.
hotrodder636
03-06-16, 22:49
Classic
"Drops the mic"
(for those who are "hip" challenged... and there are alotta ya)
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I have an SR15 and have handled a Warsport rifle, so that's my basis for comparison.
The KAC is a good value for the features and quality you get. I just can't see what the Warsport offers in those areas that makes it worth $1000 more. It's just a simple cost/benefit question. Even if the Warsport has less muzzle rise, it's only going to be a TINY bit less than the KAC. Is that worth the extra $$$? In my opinion, no.
Marlin 795
03-07-16, 23:59
If you don't take yourself seriously why should I?
Did anybody else appreciate that a dude named "Tater Tot" is whining about the professionality of a name and how it ties to your credibility?
Warsport or KAC?
Well...do you operate? Bro?
Seriously, I have to say that the KAC makes the most sense. I do not understand the Warsport's appeal.
Now, keep in mind I have not shot either weapon, so this is a bit of a "bench" review...but...
-The KAC uses a lighter profile barrel by far. The Warsport is basically a "bull barrel" from stem to stern. I've used "heavy" carbines all day before, and they suck. They really really really suck. Put a suppressor on them, and they suck even more.
-The Warsport, if it's the one I'm thinking, uses a special gas-block with a Venturi type system to allow it to cycle with a rifle-gas length system. I have heard of issues from multiple people, using them.
-The KAC is a full ambi gun
-The KAC has the E3 bolt
The only technical enhancement of the Warsport...is their wonky use of the rifle gas system. The big, fat barrel is just money-saved because they didn't have to profile it down.
I see ZERO justification for the Warsport's cost. The KAC? It uses a custom forged lower. It uses a proprietary gas system which seals better, and involves no pinning/set screws to induce barrel stress. It uses an E3 bolt, which is a proven concept.
I simply cannot see where the money went with the Warsport. CANNOT see it.
I have a KAC SR15 E3 mod 1 and a Noveske Infidel
KAC $2500 Noveske $2700
The KAC is considerably lighter and I mean noticeable difference- like night and day difference.
The Noveske however, has in my opinion, a way better barrel, and comes standard with Magpul furniture (pistol grip and butt stock) Black nitride BCG and Troy flip up sights and ALG trigger. The KAC comes with A2 flash hider, A2 grip and B5 Systems butt stock.
The Noveske comes with KX5 flash hider and NSR Keymod Rail while the KAC e3 mod 1 comes with URX 3.1 rail with proprietary rail panels.
The KAC SR15 is built around the tried and true mil-spec upper/lower while the Noveske has modernized and improved there lowers to accommodate a flared mag well which will NOT except X-Products 50 drum or Surefire 60rd mags. The Noveske uppers are machined to be more aggressive and to flow into there NSR rails.
Noveske has huge following on social media and with close relationships/partnerships with silencerco, they have launch a huge marketing campaign featuring Noveske Rifles with Silencerco silencers using a combination of 3 gun competitors and hot bikini girls. They are now teamed up with OAF Nation to market a new gun lifestyle clothing line. They are launching a Noveske/SilencerCo. ammo line with Hornady specifically tailored to suppressed 300blk.
KAC doesn't get too involved in the overall community especially the younger crowd or the crowd who will spend $3500. They are like the Coke Cola of the gun world. Everyone already knows who they are. Not quite as popular as Colt but just underneath them in terms of who's who. They have contracts with US military, US state department, private contractors, and have the kind of money Noveske and Warsport could only dream of. Especially when you have people like Chris Kyle and Marcus Latrell writing books about using there products.
So, in my own opinion, the Noveske is awesome and they seem to be more in tune with there customers and what there customers want. After all, you get a free hat and scorpion sucker with purchase. However, KAC is lighter and that is what matters to me. So...KAC gets my vote!
I have a KAC SR15 E3 mod 1 and a Noveske Infidel
KAC $2500 Noveske $2700
The KAC is considerably lighter and I mean noticeable difference- like night and day difference.
The Noveske however, has in my opinion, a way better barrel, and comes standard with Magpul furniture (pistol grip and butt stock) Black nitride BCG and Troy flip up sights and ALG trigger. The KAC comes with A2 flash hider, A2 grip and B5 Systems butt stock.
The Noveske comes with KX5 flash hider and NSR Keymod Rail while the KAC e3 mod 1 comes with URX 3.1 rail with proprietary rail panels.
The KAC SR15 is built around the tried and true mil-spec upper/lower while the Noveske has modernized and improved there lowers to accommodate a flared mag well which will NOT except X-Products 50 drum or Surefire 60rd mags. The Noveske uppers are machined to be more aggressive and to flow into there NSR rails.
Noveske has huge following on social media and with close relationships/partnerships with silencerco, they have launch a huge marketing campaign featuring Noveske Rifles with Silencerco silencers using a combination of 3 gun competitors and hot bikini girls. They are now teamed up with OAF Nation to market a new gun lifestyle clothing line. They are launching a Noveske/SilencerCo. ammo line with Hornady specifically tailored to suppressed 300blk.
KAC doesn't get too involved in the overall community especially the younger crowd or the crowd who will spend $3500. They are like the Coke Cola of the gun world. Everyone already knows who they are. Not quite as popular as Colt but just underneath them in terms of who's who. They have contracts with US military, US state department, private contractors, and have the kind of money Noveske and Warsport could only dream of. Especially when you have people like Chris Kyle and Marcus Latrell writing books about using there products.
So, in my own opinion, the Noveske is awesome and they seem to be more in tune with there customers and what there customers want. After all, you get a free hat and scorpion sucker with purchase. However, KAC is lighter and that is what matters to me. So...KAC gets my vote!
You are speaking of the companies as "companies", instead of just the product. I would add that I have kept an eye on Noveske since I bought my first one, 6 years ago, and honestly, I am sad for the company and where they have gone, and how they got there. Noveske currently should be separate from "John's Noveske", almost the same as you separate 1960's Chrysler from 2006 Chrysler.
You are speaking of the companies as "companies", instead of just the product. I would add that I have kept an eye on Noveske since I bought my first one, 6 years ago, and honestly, I am sad for the company and where they have gone, and how they got there. Noveske currently should be separate from "John's Noveske", almost the same as you separate 1960's Chrysler from 2006 Chrysler.
I agree, but you are buying a product from a company. I own 4 Noveske's and you are right. They have steered off coarse from the vision of John Noveske. Doesn't make them a bad company, they are not a small company anymore. They have grown considerably. They built a huge following but at the cost of giving up the "John Noveske's one man, one mission" style of business model. Having said that, do you think Colt, Sig, FN or KAC gives a crap about you or I? Try ordering a SCAR right now, in fact, try ordering $588,418.00 dollars worth of SCARS right now, they turn their noses up at you and I. In that world, civilian consumers come dead last to government contracts. As long as that mentality continues, you will have more companies compete for consumer business. Companies like LWRC, VLTOR, Noveske, PWS, USM4 and Bravo.
I was comparing statistics on both Noveske and KAC but thought I would throw in a little about the companies. The reason I wrote about the partnership between Noveske/Silencer co and so forth is because these businesses are about civilian consumers. They market exclusively to people like you and I.
I have heard some people grumbling about Noveske. What's the deal?
They're still making solid barrels as far as I know. Am I out of the loop or something?
TheChunkNorris
03-08-16, 03:47
Warsport or KAC?
Well...do you operate? Bro?
Seriously, I have to say that the KAC makes the most sense. I do not understand the Warsport's appeal.
Now, keep in mind I have not shot either weapon, so this is a bit of a "bench" review...but...
-The KAC uses a lighter profile barrel by far. The Warsport is basically a "bull barrel" from stem to stern. I've used "heavy" carbines all day before, and they suck. They really really really suck. Put a suppressor on them, and they suck even more.
-The Warsport, if it's the one I'm thinking, uses a special gas-block with a Venturi type system to allow it to cycle with a rifle-gas length system. I have heard of issues from multiple people, using them.
-The KAC is a full ambi gun
-The KAC has the E3 bolt
The only technical enhancement of the Warsport...is their wonky use of the rifle gas system. The big, fat barrel is just money-saved because they didn't have to profile it down.
I see ZERO justification for the Warsport's cost. The KAC? It uses a custom forged lower. It uses a proprietary gas system which seals better, and involves no pinning/set screws to induce barrel stress. It uses an E3 bolt, which is a proven concept.
I simply cannot see where the money went with the Warsport. CANNOT see it.
It's Tacti-cool, come in sorts of cute colors and they put way more into their media dept than Knight's does.
firefighter37
03-08-16, 06:30
I have a KAC SR15 E3 mod 1 and a Noveske Infidel
KAC $2500 Noveske $2700
The KAC is considerably lighter and I mean noticeable difference- like night and day difference.
The Noveske however, has in my opinion, a way better barrel, and comes standard with Magpul furniture (pistol grip and butt stock) Black nitride BCG and Troy flip up sights and ALG trigger. The KAC comes with A2 flash hider, A2 grip and LMT SOPMOD butt stock.
The Noveske comes with KX5 flash hider and NSR Keymod Rail while the KAC e3 mod 1 comes with URX 3.1 rail with proprietary rail panels.
The KAC SR15 is built around the tried and true mil-spec upper/lower while the Noveske has modernized and improved there lowers to accommodate a flared mag well which will NOT except X-Products 50 drum or Surefire 60rd mags. The Noveske uppers are machined to be more aggressive and to flow into there NSR rails.
Noveske has huge following on social media and with close relationships/partnerships with silencerco, they have launch a huge marketing campaign featuring Noveske Rifles with Silencerco silencers using a combination of 3 gun competitors and hot bikini girls. They are now teamed up with OAF Nation to market a new gun lifestyle clothing line. They are launching a Noveske/SilencerCo. ammo line with Hornady specifically tailored to suppressed 300blk.
KAC doesn't get too involved in the overall community especially the younger crowd or the crowd who will spend $3500. They are like the Coke Cola of the gun world. Everyone already knows who they are. Not quite as popular as Colt but just underneath them in terms of who's who. They have contracts with US military, US state department, private contractors, and have the kind of money Noveske and Warsport could only dream of. Especially when you have people like Chris Kyle and Marcus Latrell writing books about using there products.
So, in my own opinion, the Noveske is awesome and they seem to be more in tune with there customers and what there customers want. After all, you get a free hat and scorpion sucker with purchase. However, KAC is lighter and that is what matters to me. So...KAC gets my vote!
I corrected you in bold. Not that its a big deal, but one is $85 and the other is $199. KAC uses the $199 one
firefighter37
03-08-16, 06:33
Adding to this thread, while I have never handled a Warsport, I don't feel any justification to. SR-15s do everything I want them to do. I also find them to be a bargain for what you get. People bitch because they come with an A2 pistol grip, but I think Jack said its just a place holder, because a pistol grip is such a personalized preference, there is no point in them putting on something more expensive than an A2 for the end user just to change out anyways.
Noveske is a whole other story. Since Johnny passed, they are more about selling swag than innovating products... Just my opinion.
Failure2Stop
03-08-16, 07:51
Having said that, do you think Colt, Sig, FN or KAC gives a crap about you or I?
We here at KAC absolutely do care about the individual shooter, and we drive product as best we can to support the commercial market.
We have a growing presence in and support of competitive events, and ultimately take the greatest pride in seeing our products in the hands of those that take direct action against the enemies of the citizens of the United States.
Sorry for the derail, but I need to know, do all of these names belong together?
" Companies like LWRC, VLTOR, Noveske, PWS, USM4 and Bravo."
We here at KAC absolutely do care about the individual shooter, and we drive product as best we can to support the commercial market.
We have a growing presence in and support of competitive events, and ultimately take the greatest pride in seeing our products in the hands of those that take direct action against the enemies of the citizens of the United States.
Good to know!
Boba Fett v2
03-08-16, 09:08
I have heard some people grumbling about Noveske. What's the deal?
They're still making solid barrels as far as I know. Am I out of the loop or something?
I still think Noveske barrels are great. Exceptional quality and very accurate. Even though I'm nowhere near shooting out my curent Novesked equipped 11.5", I will be buying a couple more to have on hand for when that eventually happens.
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Sorry for the derail, but I need to know, do all of these names belong together?
" Companies like LWRC, VLTOR, Noveske, PWS, USM4 and Bravo."
In that context, I'd say so. They're companies that don't have a whole lot of federal government business, as far as I know, and they're generally smaller than Colt, FN, SIG, etc.
Not saying I necessarily agree with Elephant's assessment, but that's the context that was given.
I have a KAC SR15 E3 mod 1 and a Noveske Infidel
KAC $2500 Noveske $2700
I only paid $2000 new for my SR15 E3 Mod1. Huh.
The KAC is considerably lighter and I mean noticeable difference- like night and day difference.
The Noveske however, has in my opinion, a way better barrel, and comes standard with Magpul furniture (pistol grip and butt stock) Black nitride BCG and Troy flip up sights and ALG trigger. The KAC comes with A2 flash hider, A2 grip and B5 Systems butt stock.
I don't think Noveske chrome-lined barrels are anything special. They're FN sourced CHF barrels. Knights probably uses Diemaco sourced CHF barrels. A toss up. I do think Noveske stainless barrels are pretty awesome, but I don't think they're needed in a non-precision role.
The Troy flip up sights are a step down from the KAC sights. The ALG trigger is a step down from the KAC two stage trigger. The Magpul STR is better than the LMT SOPMOD, but that's personal preference - the SOPMOD is twice the cost. The FH is fine, but the grip is definitely worse on the KAC. But then again, it's a $2 part and a $15 upgrade to the same pistol grip. No big deal.
The Noveske comes with KX5 flash hider and NSR Keymod Rail while the KAC e3 mod 1 comes with URX 3.1 rail with proprietary rail panels.
I own two NSRs and a URX 3.1. I like the URX 3.1 better, but that's personal preference. The odds are that the only rail panel you'll need is on the bottom, and only if you use a VFG or AFG or something. I do not like the KX5, and I'd rather have an A2 FH over it.
The KAC SR15 is built around the tried and true mil-spec upper/lower while the Noveske has modernized and improved there lowers to accommodate a flared mag well which will NOT except X-Products 50 drum or Surefire 60rd mags. The Noveske uppers are machined to be more aggressive and to flow into there NSR rails.
The SR15 does not have a mil-spec lower. It has a somewhat proprietary lower with ambi controls. The Noveske looks nice, but lacks ambi controls. John Noveske once said something to the effect of "the only ambi component on my rifle is the trigger." Tongue-in-cheek, of course.
So, in my own opinion, the Noveske is awesome and they seem to be more in tune with there customers and what there customers want. After all, you get a free hat and scorpion sucker with purchase. However, KAC is lighter and that is what matters to me. So...KAC gets my vote!
I like Noveske. I have a 10.5" CL and 16" SS. I also have a SR-15. If I got the SR-15 first, I don't think I'd own any other AR-15. Although I just gave my SR-15 to my Brother to use as a patrol carbine, so... I might need to get another.
DreadPirateMoyer
03-08-16, 09:20
Sorry for the derail, but I need to know, do all of these names belong together?
" Companies like LWRC, VLTOR, Noveske, PWS, USM4 and Bravo."
No. Bravo and arguably Noveske/VLTOR are the only ones not garbage. Sort of like comparing Warsport to KAC. One is garbage, one isn't. It's pretty obvious which is which.
As for KAC not caring about civilians, totally false. I've had long and detailed conversations with their civilian sales guy as well as Jack, and they promptly addressed any issues or questions I had. I've purchased their products and been totally supported from the research phase to putting the gun in the field. Let's not make claims we can't make up.
Boba Fett v2
03-08-16, 09:54
KAC customer support has been top notch in my experience, and another reason why investing in a KAC Carbine is a no-brainer. Jack has made it his personal mission and has gone out of his way on more than a few occasions to square people away.
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Employees of KAC have treated me like I spend millions on their company every year. Short of delivering me pizza, or giving me the keys to their house, I can't think of how they could be more personable.
PatrioticDisorder
03-08-16, 11:24
Employees of KAC have treated me like I spend millions on their company every year. Short of delivering me pizza, or giving me the keys to their house, I can't think of how they could be more personable.
^^^^This
TheChunkNorris
03-08-16, 11:30
KAC customer support has been top notch in my experience, and another reason why investing in a KAC Carbine is a no-brainer. Jack has made it his personal mission and has gone out of his way on more than a few occasions to square people away.
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Agreed 100% and Jack answering my questions is the only reason why I'm waiting for a SR25 and bought a MLok SR-15.
This right here is my problem with Noveske rifles.
Find me the $700 difference in parts, please.
http://www.smosarms.com/collections/rifles/products/gfy-rifle
https://dsgarms.com/nov02000095
GUNSLINGER733
03-08-16, 11:36
Has op bought a SR15 yet. lol This thread is funny as hell.
This right here is my problem with Noveske rifles.
Find me the $700 difference in parts, please.
http://www.smosarms.com/collections/rifles/products/gfy-rifle
https://dsgarms.com/nov02000095
That's my main issue with them as well, most of their parts are made by other companies from those company's existing products, with a Noveske stamp, yet is held in some false high regard that their product are superior with Noveske IMO you are paying for the roll mark. You could build the same rifle from the manufactures of the components for cheaper.
They're assemblers.
This right here is my problem with Noveske rifles.
Find me the $700 difference in parts, please.
http://www.smosarms.com/collections/rifles/products/gfy-rifle
https://dsgarms.com/nov02000095
Exactly, I went through their whole catalog and every rifle was almost exactly 600$ more than the same rifle from a reputable competitor.
I have a Noveske SPR barrel in a 12" Vltor VIS. Noveske charged 1525$ for this upper with a mil spec BCG. I bought it for ~1215$ with a Vltor marked VIS upper and a Young NM BCG.
Recently I bought a SMOS GFY lower for this upper. I get a real kick out of the whole idea (SMOS previously made Noveske Gen3 lowers for them). Based on the ridiculous asking price Noveske I take a certain pride in building their gun better, for way less, its my way of telling them to GFY and saving 800$.
That's my main issue with them as well, most of their parts are made by other companies from those company's existing products, with a Noveske stamp, yet is held in some false high regard that their product are superior with Noveske IMO you are paying for the roll mark. You could build the same rifle from the manufactures of the components for cheaper.
Not so much that, as they ALREADY DO BUILD IT $700 CHEAPER. That's the real kicker. You can argue fit/finish/assembly/special tools all you want...until the guy next door offers the same BMW made in a comparable "factory" for the same price as a Camry. Then it kindof goes out the window.
Noveske is a waste IMO.
Their barrels may be a little nicer, but surely not $600 nicer...
Boba Fett v2
03-08-16, 12:35
That's why I put together a "Noveske" gun using blem and discounted components and added KAC, LMT and Magpul components to fill the gaps. And it cost way less than what I would have paid for a Noveske factory build.
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That's my main issue with them as well, most of their parts are made by other companies from those company's existing products, with a Noveske stamp, yet is held in some false high regard that their product are superior with Noveske IMO you are paying for the roll mark. You could build the same rifle from the manufactures of the components for cheaper.
They're assemblers.
This actually applies to almost everyone in the AR industry. Even BCM.
Noveske has their own barrels, rail, and for a while had their own uppers and lowers. Depending on model, you can get a KX5 or KX3 too.
BCM has their own rail, charging handle, grip, and stock.
Primus Pilum
03-08-16, 13:45
There are only 2 tiers that matter IMO when it comes to AR15's:
KAC at the top.
BCM/Colt in the middle when I don't want/need KAC products. The 6720 and 6721 (for ban states) for $800 is about the best deal in factory rifles out there. The BCM 11.5, 12.5 & 14.5 Barrels are top notch as well.
There are no other factory rifles/uppers on the market worth messing with IMO. There is always rolling your own/customs, but for factory products those are the only 3 worth it IMO for serious weapons (not range toys or game guns).
Noveske, LMT, PWS, LWRC, ect really offer nothing that one of 3 above don't at a better value or performance.
There are only 2 tiers that matter IMO when it comes to AR15's:
KAC at the top.
BCM/Colt in the middle when I don't want/need KAC products. The 6720 and 6721 (for ban states) for $800 is about the best deal in factory rifles out there. The BCM 11.5, 12.5 & 14.5 Barrels are top notch as well.
There are no other factory rifles/uppers on the market worth messing with IMO. There is always rolling your own/customs, but for factory products those are the only 3 worth it IMO for serious weapons (not range toys or game guns).
Noveske, LMT, PWS, LWRC, ect really offer nothing that one of 3 above don't at a better value or performance.
My sentiments exactly.
happy Növeske owner with no complaints.
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That's my main issue with them as well, most of their parts are made by other companies from those company's existing products, with a Noveske stamp.
They're assemblers.
So is Boeing, GM, Ford, Chrysler, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, CAT, John Deere and a million other companies. A lot of AR manufactures will manufacture there own uppers, lowers, barrels and hand guards and use someone else's forward assist, takedown pins, roll pins, BCG, buffer tube assembly, dust cover, flash hider, grip, butt stock, sights, detents/springs, trigger, bolt catch and magazine release along with someone elses magazine.
MichaelVain
03-08-16, 15:31
Anyone who questions KAC's customer service has clearly never been to their sub forum on TOS.
Primus Pilum
03-08-16, 16:07
So is Boeing, GM, Ford, Chrysler, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, CAT, John Deere and a million other companies. A lot of AR manufactures will manufacture there own uppers, lowers, barrels and hand guards and use someone else's forward assist, takedown pins, roll pins, BCG, buffer tube assembly, dust cover, flash hider, grip, butt stock, sights, detents/springs, trigger, bolt catch and magazine release along with someone elses magazine.
You missed his point. "from those company's existing products". All those companies you listed with the exception of some engines or transmissions are UNIQUE, Speced products that are subcontracted out. There is no Boeing or Lockheed clone companies out there that plug and play with parts. Yes some things like bolts or screws or a sub-assembly may be used by other manufactures but they don't even begin to compare to an AR15 Manufacture.
While noveskee does have a few unique products, they A. Are few and far between and B. Are already obsolete as anything worth a shit was designed when John was still alive. 10 Years ago when there were not many options for quality factory SS barrels, they were one of the better options. They really offer nothing and their prices are so far from their true value. DD is the same way, they really offer nothing over BCM at a higher price.
MAYBE if they were in line with BCM pricing, they would be a viable alternative, but as it stands, their QC and products the last few years are more in line with the mass produced consumer guns than the quality Mil-spec manufactures like BCM , Colt and even LMT.
ExplorinInTheWoods
03-08-16, 16:23
I don't have a complete noveske rifle but I do have an 18" SPR barrel and it was super accurate, at 50 yards with a accupoint 1-4 I put 10 shots in less than a dime. I really want to pull off my accupoint and put a higher power optic just to see it's true accuracy at 100 yds. Yes it was pricey but it came with a gas block and gas tube so $75 value it has that nice bead blasted finish instead of being super shiny for stainless steel. Everyone has stuff that they'll pay more money for like a war sport or LaRue. I think a Noveske is more justifiable as a purchase compared to a salient or new agency glock.
You missed his point. "from those company's existing products". Yes some things like bolts or screws or a sub-assembly may be used by other manufactures but they don't even begin to compare to an AR15 Manufacture.
Noveske puts the most popular aftermarket accessories on there rifles from other companies existing products like Troy and Magpul. Why wouldn't they?
Your implying that AR15 manufactures cant be compared to other industries. Everyone on this forum only talks about the things I listed as manufactured by the manufacture (upper, lower, barrel, handguard, trigger, bcg) which is what they focus on and usually emphasize on most in there craftsmanship and quality sales pitch. Which would lead me to think that every other part on the gun was sub contracted out or purchased from a bulk order catalog. Its lean- streamlined manufacturing.
As far as the price goes, I have said this before and got into a debate but it is called "VALUE PRICING"! They charge what you are willing to pay. No one said it was worth $2700 or had $2700 worth of parts but they have a huge following of people that are willing to pay $2700- and that goes for a lot of gun manufactures and other industries as well.
I agree that Noveske is a bit overpriced compared to alternative offerings. I have used their barrels, and the NSR handguards, bought during sales of various kinds, but I've gone elsewhere for BCGs, etc. Yeah, they charge a premium for the name, image, marketing, John's legacy, etc. but if people are willing to pay... well you know the rest.
BCM is hard to beat for the money/quality/innovation.
Noveske puts the most popular aftermarket accessories on there rifles from other companies existing products like Troy and Magpul. Why wouldn't they?
I think you miss understand how Noveske builds their rifles, the lowers, uppers, BCG, barrels, charging handles, most of the Noveske platform is from other companies who are already selling the same product with a different roll mark. Noveske licenses the EXACT same product that is already on the market. Then add a mark up for their roll mark.
You could literally build a Noveske rifle with no product marked or from Noveske.
Primus Pilum
03-08-16, 19:16
I think you miss understand how Noveske builds their rifles, the lowers, uppers, BCG, barrels, charging handles, most of the Noveske platform is from other companies who are already selling the same product with a different roll mark. Noveske licenses the EXACT same product that is already on the market. Then add a mark up for their roll mark.
You could literally build a Noveske rifle with no product marked or from Noveske.
SHHHH
Don't let the kiddies know that Santa isin't real, it will ruin the holidays.
Primus Pilum
03-08-16, 19:22
Noveske puts the most popular aftermarket accessories on there rifles from other companies existing products like Troy and Magpul. Why wouldn't they?
Your implying that AR15 manufactures cant be compared to other industries. Everyone on this forum only talks about the things I listed as manufactured by the manufacture (upper, lower, barrel, handguard, trigger, bcg) which is what they focus on and usually emphasize on most in there craftsmanship and quality sales pitch. Which would lead me to think that every other part on the gun was sub contracted out or purchased from a bulk order catalog. Its lean- streamlined manufacturing.
As far as the price goes, I have said this before and got into a debate but it is called "VALUE PRICING"! They charge what you are willing to pay. No one said it was worth $2700 or had $2700 worth of parts but they have a huge following of people that are willing to pay $2700- and that goes for a lot of gun manufactures and other industries as well.
The is a huge difference is not only WHO OEM's a part, but WHAT it is speced at and what level of QC there is before the product is accepted.
COLT, BCM, LMT and even KAC contract out parts, from many of the same forges and small parts manufactures the garbage companies use. The difference is they require a higher quality product within spec and actually QC what they take in to ensure that it meets their standards. Last time I checked KAC was not contracting to magpul or Troy to make their sights, rails, ect. Noveskee makes an overpriced and undervalued parts gun that you could put together for less than half the price and probably end up with a better and more reliable product. There is nothing unique or special about them, unless you get hard for the Iron cross.
Noveskee could charge $10K for a gun and if Costa ran one of them across his beard in a video, then morons would line up to buy it. Ignorant buyers, nothing more , nothing less. Not a critical thinker among them.
Noveskee makes an overpriced and undervalued parts gun that you could put together for less than half the price and probably end up with a better and more reliable product.
Going to have to ask for a citation or proof on Noveske using lower specs and QC than BCM, Colt, etc.
Boba Fett v2
03-08-16, 19:44
The is a huge difference is not only WHO OEM's a part, but WHAT it is speced at and what level of QC there is before the product is accepted.
COLT, BCM, LMT and even KAC contract out parts, from many of the same forges and small parts manufactures the garbage companies use. The difference is they require a higher quality product within spec and actually QC what they take in to ensure that it meets their standards. Last time I checked KAC was not contracting to magpul or Troy to make their sights, rails, ect. Noveskee makes an overpriced and undervalued parts gun that you could put together for less than half the price and probably end up with a better and more reliable product. There is nothing unique or special about them, unless you get hard for the Iron cross.
Noveskee could charge $10K for a gun and if Costa ran one of them across his beard in a video, then morons would line up to buy it. Ignorant buyers, nothing more , nothing less. Not a critical thinker among them.
You mean there are guys out there who have a man-crush on Costa? I never would've guessed.
But yes, post evidence of your claims, sir!
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
The NSR rail (which SMOS Arms originally manufactured for them exclusively) was an absolute disruptive force in handguards. No other manu had anything close. True innovation from John. A true hard-use item that changed the entire feel / weight / handling of the AR15. Many handguards today are just reruns of the original NSR.
He also worked with SMOS to design/cut the GEN2 > on lowers which were pretty awesome lowers for their time (heavy as tanks, but had sex appeal).
They designed the switchblock, which was cool in it's time.
Their barrels speak for themselves and I've owned and still own a ton. As mentioned, few were offering barrels in those types of contours and performance.
Other than that, yeah, they're just another assembler that had an awesome founder at the right place and right time in the industry. They had very high QC during the John years as well.
All that said, I never had the desire to buy a complete Noveske rifle and never did. Barrels and handguards were it. Anymore, manufacturers are getting similar or better performance out of barrels for half the price.
Fast forward to today and they're unable to innovate because the chief innovation guy is no longer with us, and the other guys that worked with him have left and started their own things up.
They'll release the Gen3 N6 762 which is long overdue and honestly doesn't excite me much and they'll release MLOK versions of the NSR, which I've seen the design and don't like the aesthetics. SMOS Arms makes a better MLOK NSR IMO. Other than that? Where's the innovation? It's up to you Noveske, surprise us.
Primus Pilum
03-08-16, 21:36
Going to have to ask for a citation or proof on Noveske using lower specs and QC than BCM, Colt, etc.
Have you not seen the quality post John? The net is littered with examples of poor machining, fit, finish and out of spec products. Lowers sold at an absolute premium that looked like a monkey went to dremel A-school with it. Their QC took a nose dive after john died, its not even debatable. Their innovation also disappeared ALA Steve Jobs. John was the Noveske Brand, all you have now is people trying to cash in on the brand (which to anyone paying attention, aint much anymore). A simple Google search will yield all you need to know. Lots of people late to the party and il-informed will throw cash their way, just like they throw cash to Larue despite his products being a decade obsolete. Don't underestimate the sheeps ability to be swayed by marketing.
Noveske barrels were never that great anyway. No different than any other pac nor or decent button rifle mass produced barrels. They still don't sniff the ass of quality cut rifle barrels or even some of the high quality button boys like Lija, rock creek or Mullerworks. I built a number of SPR's on Johns barrels and they were no better than the WOA builds except they cost almost 2x as much. People who say they were so great yada yada most likely didn't have a proper context or experience to compare them to other products on the market. If I am paying $400+ for a barrel for an AR, its going to be a Krieger or Barty. It would be foolish otherwise.
I think you miss understand how Noveske builds their rifles, the lowers, uppers, BCG, barrels, charging handles, most of the Noveske platform is from other companies who are already selling the same product with a different roll mark. Noveske licenses the EXACT same product that is already on the market. Then add a mark up for their roll mark.
You could literally build a Noveske rifle with no product marked or from Noveske.
Then it would not be a Noveske. I understand completely! They buy a part from someone else and ink press there iron cross into it and mark up the resale. - that's actually a business model most businesses use these days. its called retail!
The is a huge difference is not only WHO OEM's a part, but WHAT it is speced at and what level of QC there is before the product is accepted.
COLT, BCM, LMT and even KAC contract out parts, from many of the same forges and small parts manufactures the garbage companies use. The difference is they require a higher quality product within spec and actually QC what they take in to ensure that it meets their standards. Last time I checked KAC was not contracting to magpul or Troy to make their sights, rails, ect. Noveskee makes an overpriced and undervalued parts gun that you could put together for less than half the price and probably end up with a better and more reliable product. There is nothing unique or special about them, unless you get hard for the Iron cross.
Ignorant buyers, nothing more , nothing less. Not a critical thinker among them.
So your saying that OEM small part manufactures have 2 different manufacturing procedures? One with high standards and one with low standards? The low standards get sent to Noveske and the High standards get sent to Colt, BCM and KAC?
To what I said: Noveske sells a gun with parts that would otherwise be exchanged, upgraded or replaced by the user. Most gun owners replace factory sights, trigger, charging handle, grips, butt stock, flash hider and eventually a barrel. -That's most of the gun. They are building a gun on there upper/lower/barrel/handguard and a combination of quality upper tier parts (preference) from a variety of suppliers- and yes, they put there name in those parts. But it doesn't make them less quality.
I happen to have both Noveske and KAC
38222
The difference between where the upper receiver meets the hand guard is visible: personally, I think Noveske made a nice seamless transition between the two.
38223 38224
The ambidextrous controls on the KAC are nice, but doesn't matter to me because I am right handed.
38225 38226
I was never comparing the 2 companies side by side, they are 2 different companies who manufacture 2 different guns that shoot the same 556.
I don't know why people say Noveske's QC went down hill. The statements I have read were that Noveske parts didn't just slap together, I don't think noveske built a gun to be thrown together. It took me over 30 minutes of tightening and loosening the barrel nut to get the proper timing to get the rail attached. Noveske also stakes there castle nuts, where as KAC does not. I also found the fit of a noveske to be solid as well with KAC. Regardless, LWRC, Noveske, KAC, ADCOR, PWS, USM4 and Barrett are for consumers that have a few thousand to spend where as Colt, FN, BCM are for smaller budget consumers- nothing wrong with that. But if your going to charge upwards of $3000 for a DI gun, you have to have a reason. I think your not giving Noveske any credit. They have good guns with good quality parts regardless if they are being sold somewhere else for less without a Noveske logo.
Did anybody else appreciate that a dude named "Tater Tot" is whining about the professionality of a name and how it ties to your credibility?
At no point have I ever done business using my nickname. This is an Internet forum where I chose not to use my name or title..
Sent from my old crappy phone
Primus Pilum
03-08-16, 22:07
Snip
Wow what a logic leap. In now way shape or form did I say they are specing lower quality parts. Companies like Bushmaster, Remington, DPMS, PSA, ect are.
Their products have always solid higher than their value. Now they sell at an even higher price with absolutely no features or function that set it apart from a $800 colt rifle other than a rail and a middy gas system. Noveske brings nothing to the table, other than an overpriced rollmark. Nothing. I will argue that a combination of their manufacturing process and QC went to the shitter after John died. Some of the stuff I have seen in recent years would have NEVER left the factory under John's supervision.
Those names you mentioned don't belong in the same sentence with KAC. They are superior in every way, and many times are a much better value with more functionality not to mention a track record of excellence. Your 2 samples mean nothing when both companies have sold thousands of products.
Please tell me what justifies noveske's pricing? On a basic model or even their flagship. What do they bring to the table? . Please be specific.
I think you miss understand how Noveske builds their rifles, the lowers, uppers, BCG, barrels, charging handles, most of the Noveske platform is from other companies who are already selling the same product with a different roll mark. Noveske licenses the EXACT same product that is already on the market. Then add a mark up for their roll mark.
You could literally build a Noveske rifle with no product marked or from Noveske.
To be fair, Noveske did at one time spec things slightly differently. Little bitty bitty things, but things that added up. Just like BCM does with their uppers. It's not all JUST name, or at least it didn't used to be, but one must ask...do you WANT the little tweaks to tolerances, etc? Is it worth $700? John and Joel spec'ed out some neat little Easter-eggs that did indeed help the platform, I think. I'm not trying to be a Noveske apologist, but I think they do deserve a fair shake, too.
Wow what a logic leap. In now way shape or form did I say they are specing lower quality parts. Companies like Bushmaster, Remington, DPMS, PSA, ect are.
Their products have always solid higher than their value. Now they sell at an even higher price with absolutely no features or function that set it apart from a $800 colt rifle other than a rail and a middy gas system. Noveske brings nothing to the table, other than an overpriced rollmark. Nothing. I will argue that a combination of their manufacturing process and QC went to the shitter after John died. Some of the stuff I have seen in recent years would have NEVER left the factory under John's supervision.
Those names you mentioned don't belong in the same sentence with KAC. They are superior in every way, and many times are a much better value with more functionality not to mention a track record of excellence. Your 2 samples mean nothing when both companies have sold thousands of products.
Please tell me what justifies noveske's pricing? On a basic model or even their flagship. What do they bring to the table? . Please be specific.
To be fair, I got an out of spec factory SBR lower that Daniel Defense could not find an upper to fit (they tried half a dozen), and an upper that gouged brass so bad it malfunctioned constantly, and had an 8 MOA POI shift from suppressed to unsuppressed. John hand-signed the certificate.
Noveske did take care of me, and I am 100% happy with the resolution, but I question how much of "their quality has gone to crap" was only the failure of hero-worship when John died. My experience, sadly, was that the quality was always iffy. However, I do believe it got worse.
In before the fit & finish crowd attempts to explain how Noveske's receivers justify the price of admission...
Primus Pilum
03-08-16, 22:53
To be fair, I got an out of spec factory SBR lower that Daniel Defense could not find an upper to fit (they tried half a dozen), and an upper that gouged brass so bad it malfunctioned constantly, and had an 8 MOA POI shift from suppressed to unsuppressed. John hand-signed the certificate.
Noveske did take care of me, and I am 100% happy with the resolution, but I question how much of "their quality has gone to crap" was only the failure of hero-worship when John died. My experience, sadly, was that the quality was always iffy. However, I do believe it got worse.
Fair enough. I'm not exactly the biggest DD champion either. They make good products, I just don't see any value over BCM.
Please tell me what justifies noveske's pricing? On a basic model or even their flagship. What do they bring to the table? . Please be specific.
Lets build one real quick: In fact, lets build this one. $2505.00 +tax
38227
I added parts to my cart to get a quick price- excluded tax and shipping $1143.34
38228
includes:
Magpul stock
Magpul grip
KX3 flash suppressor
RCA black nitride BCG
Raptor ambi charging handle
Noveske Takedown/pivot pin
Noveske NSR 9" rail
Noveske 10.5 Lo-Pro gas block barrel
The Gen III is currently unavailable but here is a screen shot with price: $610.00
38229
Here are the Noveske marked Troy flip up sights that are currently unavailable $225.00 (the screenshot is the front $99)
38230
And here is a ALG ACT trigger $69.00
38231
so far we have spent $1921.34 not including tax or shipping.
We still need an upper/lower parts kit from Continental Machine & Tool, buffer tube, buffer and spring, endplate and castle nut $180
Sub Total $2225.34
Tax (texas) $183
Total $2408.34
Shipping (per Noveske) $178 (2nd day air)
Grand total $2586.34 and we have to assemble it ourselves:(
I don't need to justify why I spent $2500 on a Noveske or 4 of them for that matter. I don't need to justify why I spent $2400 on a KAC either. I like both. I like the details in the in the Noveske, seamless transitional body lines with almost hexagonal upper receiver, machined relieves around bolt catch and magazine release, integrated mag well, stainless steel barrel. I like those things found in a Noveske.
Fair enough. I'm not exactly the biggest DD champion either. They make good products, I just don't see any value over BCM.
It's not DD's fault Noveske sent me an out of spec rifle. DD was nice enough to QA/QC Noveske's lower...props to them. Noveske agreed it was out of spec when they got it. I had asked DD to hand-pick an upper to fit it. THey didn't have anything that would fit.
Lets build one real quick: In fact, lets build this one. $2505.00 +tax
38227
I added parts to my cart to get a quick price- excluded tax and shipping $1143.34
38228
includes:
Magpul stock
Magpul grip
KX3 flash suppressor
RCA black nitride BCG
Raptor ambi charging handle
Noveske Takedown/pivot pin
Noveske NSR 9" rail
Noveske 10.5 Lo-Pro gas block barrel
The Gen III is currently unavailable but here is a screen shot with price: $610.00
38229
Here are the Noveske marked Troy flip up sights that are currently unavailable $225.00 (the screenshot is the front $99)
38230
And here is a ALG ACT trigger $69.00
38231
so far we have spent $1921.34 not including tax or shipping.
We still need an upper/lower parts kit from Continental Machine & Tool, buffer tube, buffer and spring, endplate and castle nut $180
Sub Total $2225.34
Tax (texas) $183
Total $2408.34
Shipping (per Noveske) $178 (2nd day air)
Grand total $2586.34 and we have to assemble it ourselves:(
I don't need to justify why I spent $2500 on a Noveske or 4 of them for that matter. I don't need to justify why I spent $2400 on a KAC either. I like both. I like the details in the in the Noveske, seamless transitional body lines with almost hexagonal upper receiver, machined relieves around bolt catch and magazine release, integrated mag well, stainless steel barrel. I like those things found in a Noveske.
Use the SMOS receiver set-save $200 for the same thing.
http://www.smosarms.com/collections/sets/products/gfy-receiver-set
I only have check that figured it was a good starting/stopping point to prove my point. Then once you have the parts it take 30 mins to put rifle together if you're going slow.
Lets build one real quick: In fact, lets build this one. $2505.00 +tax
38227
I added parts to my cart to get a quick price- excluded tax and shipping $1143.34
38228
includes:
Magpul stock
Magpul grip
KX3 flash suppressor
RCA black nitride BCG
Raptor ambi charging handle
Noveske Takedown/pivot pin
Noveske NSR 9" rail
Noveske 10.5 Lo-Pro gas block barrel
The Gen III is currently unavailable but here is a screen shot with price: $610.00
38229
Here are the Noveske marked Troy flip up sights that are currently unavailable $225.00 (the screenshot is the front $99)
38230
And here is a ALG ACT trigger $69.00
38231
so far we have spent $1921.34 not including tax or shipping.
We still need an upper/lower parts kit from Continental Machine & Tool, buffer tube, buffer and spring, endplate and castle nut $180
Sub Total $2225.34
Tax (texas) $183
Total $2408.34
Shipping (per Noveske) $178 (2nd day air)
Grand total $2586.34 and we have to assemble it ourselves:(
I don't need to justify why I spent $2500 on a Noveske or 4 of them for that matter. I don't need to justify why I spent $2400 on a KAC either. I like both. I like the details in the in the Noveske, seamless transitional body lines with almost hexagonal upper receiver, machined relieves around bolt catch and magazine release, integrated mag well, stainless steel barrel. I like those things found in a Noveske.
Here is the same upper and lower, for $400:
http://www.smosarms.com/collections/sets/products/gfy-receiver-set
I wouldn't touch RCA with a 10-foot pole after buying multiple RCA BCG's and having the lugs peen, the headspacing tight, and getting crap CS from Chris. I believe at one time he even hand-wrote a "sell it to someone else if you don't like it" note in a customer's return when he sent it back to them. A great alternative is the Azimuth BCG, which I found to be better machined, and made by people who aren't dicks (*H&M metal processing is run by good people. RCA is just kindof their stepchild).
http://www.tracearmory.com/collections/azimuth-bolt-carrier-group-ar-15/products/mil-spec-bolt-carrier-group
Take another $75 off the price...
Now, I don't like Noveske's barrels, and wouldn't run one. However, YOU might feel differently, so I can't really argue the barrel, but I could save some money there, and I bet the product would be AT LEAST as good.
So far, I have lopped off about $300. I could continue with the rail, barrel, and other things, but you could argue "But I WANT those", and it's "your rifle", so I couldn't much argue the point, there.
PatrioticDisorder
03-08-16, 23:22
Fair enough. I'm not exactly the biggest DD champion either. They make good products, I just don't see any value over BCM.
Doesn't Daniel Defense make pretty much all their parts including barrels in house? One of the few companies with a hammer forge to make barrels no? When you make your own stuff you tend to control the quality, I've had very good luck with DD (second favorite AR manufacturer to KAC). Comparing DD rails to BCM, there is a thread going right now about KMR's breaking, I don't think I've ever heard of a DD rail breaking. I'll say this, I'll take a DD over a BCM if for no other reason than DD pins their gas blocks & BCM does not (unless it is a FSB gas block). I'm sure the loctite & set screw works just fine for most, I'll pass.
And then there is stories like this:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?169913-Problem-with-a-new-BCM-lower
Primus Pilum
03-08-16, 23:26
Lets build one real quick: In fact, lets build this one. $2505.00 +tax
38227
I added parts to my cart to get a quick price- excluded tax and shipping $1143.34
38228
includes:
Magpul stock
Magpul grip
KX3 flash suppressor
RCA black nitride BCG
Raptor ambi charging handle
Noveske Takedown/pivot pin
Noveske NSR 9" rail
Noveske 10.5 Lo-Pro gas block barrel
The Gen III is currently unavailable but here is a screen shot with price: $610.00
38229
Here are the Noveske marked Troy flip up sights that are currently unavailable $225.00 (the screenshot is the front $99)
38230
And here is a ALG ACT trigger $69.00
38231
so far we have spent $1921.34 not including tax or shipping.
We still need an upper/lower parts kit from Continental Machine & Tool, buffer tube, buffer and spring, endplate and castle nut $180
Sub Total $2225.34
Tax (texas) $183
Total $2408.34
Shipping (per Noveske) $178 (2nd day air)
Grand total $2586.34 and we have to assemble it ourselves:(
I don't need to justify why I spent $2500 on a Noveske or 4 of them for that matter. I don't need to justify why I spent $2400 on a KAC either. I like both. I like the details in the in the Noveske, seamless transitional body lines with almost hexagonal upper receiver, machined relieves around bolt catch and magazine release, integrated mag well, stainless steel barrel. I like those things found in a Noveske.
BCM 11.5 LW 11.5" upper with BCG, Ambi Charger, A2 ($583)
KAC Lower (includes KAC 2 stage, LMT SOPMOD, QD points, ambi controls) ($750)
Gisselle MK8 9.5 with free LPGB ($225)
Bobro LP BUIS ($199)
Throw in ($250) for grips, stocks changes, sling, Diff FH ect.
So for just over $2K you can build a better gun all the way around , avoid FET/taxes/ect and not end up with failmod, KX3 fail, a rougher shooting gun and a piss poor trigger in comparison.
Spend the $500 and throw a MRO/mount on there for $500 worth of mags/ammo. You welcome.
Or you could buy a factory KAC 11.5 for the same money and have twice the gun. Your choice.
Primus Pilum
03-08-16, 23:42
Doesn't Daniel Defense make pretty much all their parts including barrels in house? One of the few companies with a hammer forge to make barrels no? When you make your own stuff you tend to control the quality, I've had very good luck with DD (second favorite AR manufacturer to KAC). Comparing DD rails to BCM, there is a thread going right now about KMR's breaking, I don't think I've ever heard of a DD rail breaking. I'll say this, I'll take a DD over a BCM if for no other reason than DD pins their gas blocks & BCM does not (unless it is a FSB gas block). I'm sure the loctite & set screw works just fine for most, I'll pass.
And then there is stories like this:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?169913-Problem-with-a-new-BCM-lower
What does hammer forge have to do with anything? Their barrels are no better than the other quality barrels on the market from colt, lmt , kac, FN ,ect. All chrome lined CHF or button rifled barrels will shoot nearly the same if they are from a quality manufacture and they have a good shop doing the chrome work.
You are right about the KMR rails and If you see my posts, you see me calling out BCM for putting out a poor product. However that does not change the quality of their upper/barrels which are among the best out there. They make the truest forged upper I have built on to date and my squaring tool has nothing to bite on when I run it. And as far as DD breaking? Well no shit they weight about 14 pounds, I hope they don't break. They are the most overbuilt rail on the market, and you pay for that in price and weight. No thanks.
Pinning the gas block doesn't really matter. I have used set screws on both dimpled and non dimped barrels for years and as long as everything is alighned well and you torque the piss out of it, it ain't coming lose. Carbon freezes the bitch in place anyway after enough shots.
There is nothing wrong with DD, they make solid products. I just don't see any additional value to them over what BCM offers and BCM has many more options for barrel profiles and lengths. You flat know they drill the gas port correct and their uppers are square as steve urcle. Can't ask for anything else at that price point. They own the non-KAC segment as I like to say. $2K and down BCM, $2K and up KAC. Words to live by and you will always have a gun that runs when you need it the most. Leave the boutique and hispter guns to the dirt shooters. Performance rules the day. If it don't make you shoot faster, isn't more reliable, doesn't save weight or more accurate, then its a gimmick.
What does hammer forge have to do with anything? Their barrels are no better than the other quality barrels on the market from colt, lmt , kac, FN ,ect. All chrome lined CHF or button rifled barrels will shoot nearly the same if they are from a quality manufacture and they have a good shop doing the chrome work.
You are right about the KMR rails and If you see my posts, you see me calling out BCM for putting out a poor product. However that does not change the quality of their upper/barrels which are among the best out there. They make the truest forged upper I have built on to date and my squaring tool has nothing to bite on when I run it. And as far as DD breaking? Well no shit they weight about 14 pounds, I hope they don't break. They are the most overbuilt rail on the market, and you pay for that in price and weight. No thanks.
Pinning the gas block doesn't really matter. I have used set screws on both dimpled and non dimped barrels for years and as long as everything is alighned well and you torque the piss out of it, it ain't coming lose. Carbon freezes the bitch in place anyway after enough shots.
There is nothing wrong with DD, they make solid products. I just don't see any additional value to them over what BCM offers and BCM has many more options for barrel profiles and lengths. You flat know they drill the gas port correct and their uppers are square as steve urcle. Can't ask for anything else at that price point. They own the non-KAC segment as I like to say. $2K and down BCM, $2K and up KAC. Words to live by and you will always have a gun that runs when you need it the most. Leave the boutique and hispter guns to the dirt shooters. Performance rules the day. If it don't make you shoot faster, isn't more reliable, doesn't save weight or more accurate, then its a gimmick.
Bingo.
What don't you like about the KMR?
I don't get it with BCM, every time I hear the word BCM its usually right before or right after someone says the word budget? Its like BCM is the Honda Civic of AR platforms. Not to insult them but many people have turned to BCM to build an economic version of some other gun.
I never said Noveske or KAC is better. That's why I have both. But once you bring up a discussion about guns in the $2500-3000 dollar range, everyone wants you to justify the cost and then validate themselves by hypothetically build some one off rifle using 10 different over the counter manufactures (which is what they insult Noveske for doing).
Lets talk resale: I just sold 2 of my Noveske rifles in the EE for $100 less then I bought them for over a year ago. Can you assemble a gun from 10 different manufactures and get that kind of return?
Primus Pilum
03-09-16, 00:12
Bingo.
What don't you like about the KMR?
The Mag alloy is way too soft and Keymod in general is an inferior mounting platform. The Alpha fixes the material issue but you still have a dying attachment method. In 2-3 years you won't find anyone making Keymod IMO.
The Mag alloy is way too soft and Keymod in general is an inferior mounting platform. The Alpha fixes the material issue but you still have a dying attachment method. In 2-3 years you won't find anyone making Keymod IMO.
Do you think MLOK is better?
Employees of KAC have treated me like I spend millions on their company every year. Short of delivering me pizza, or giving me the keys to their house, I can't think of how they could be more personable.
More personable, maybe not, but it'd be nice if they didn't make you pay for shipping back to them for parts that broke under warranty or arrived missing pieces.
PatrioticDisorder
03-09-16, 06:27
There is nothing wrong with DD, they make solid products. I just don't see any additional value to them over what BCM offers and BCM has many more options for barrel profiles and lengths.
We'll agree to disagree on that, but perhaps that's my personal preference. I like that DD makes their own parts in house, their rails as you say don't weigh 14lbs (and they don't break, same with KAC rails), you should really pick one of their rifles up they are light (and damn accurate). I won't touch a barrel that isn't hammer forged, I trust KAC & DD barrels. As far as pinned gas blocks go, do you shoot suppressed? I simply trust the mechanically pinned gas block much more than a loc tited gas block, you'll never convince me the loc tited gas block is on there just as secure as a pinned gas block, it simply isn't. Full DD's can be had around $1,300-1,350 a BCM similiarly configured will cost within $50-100 of the DD which for reasons I laid out in my previous post is simply a better product. If I want to go cheap, there is no beating Colt who blows BCM away on price. Every time I've looked flirted witH buying a BCM I've come to the calculation it's simply not worth it, just my opinion. KAC, DD then Colt for me (and one day I may consider LMT as well).
We'll agree to disagree on that, but perhaps that's my personal preference. I like that DD makes their own parts in house, their rails as you say don't weigh 14lbs (and they don't break, same with KAC rails), you should really pick one of their rifles up they are light (and damn accurate). I won't touch a barrel that isn't hammer forged, I trust KAC & DD barrels. As far as pinned gas blocks go, do you shoot suppressed? I simply trust the mechanically pinned gas block much more than a loc tited gas block, you'll never convince me the loc tited gas block is on there just as secure as a pinned gas block, it simply isn't. Full DD's can be had around $1,300-1,350 a BCM similiarly configured will cost within $50-100 of the DD which for reasons I laid out in my previous post is simply a better product. If I want to go cheap, there is no beating Colt who blows BCM away on price. Every time I've looked flirted witH buying a BCM I've come to the calculation it's simply not worth it, just my opinion. KAC, DD then Colt for me (and one day I may consider LMT as well).
DD makes the lightest quad-rail I am aware of, and their MLOK and KM rails are sensible (ie. there are no "my rail broke and my VFG came off..." threads about them).
DD makes an excellent barrel. They are the only hammer forger that I know of who forges the chamber at the same time as the bore. This is "one less chance to dick it up" and ensures concentric chamber-to-bore.
DD hand-polishes their feed ramps on all of their barrels, and knocks the corners off of the barrel extension feed-ramps at the top. This exact lack of attention is what caused a ton of malfunctions in another rifle of mine.
DD uses a quality LPK. It's not fancy. It's not "special". But it's good kit and I've never heard of one breaking or not fitting in-spec weapons.
DD has actual people's actual initials on QA/QC check-offs that come with the rifle. This matters to me. Why? Because unless you're a complete shit of a person, when you sign/initial your name to something you claim to have done, you take more pride in it than if it anonymously passes through your hands/work-station.
BCM makes a good rifle. I prefer DD because I like DD. It's an EMOTIONAL preference. They both send very good weapons out the door. However, to say DD offers nothing over BCM is incorrect. They are an actual MANUFACTURER, and this gives them much more control over the product. They are not at the mercy of someone to make their barrels "the way they want them", etc. Doubly incorrect is saying their rails are all heavy, etc. The RIS II is heavy, but that's about that.
Lets build one real quick: In fact, lets build this one. $2505.00 +tax
38227
I added parts to my cart to get a quick price- excluded tax and shipping $1143.34
38228
includes:
Magpul stock
Magpul grip
KX3 flash suppressor
RCA black nitride BCG
Raptor ambi charging handle
Noveske Takedown/pivot pin
Noveske NSR 9" rail
Noveske 10.5 Lo-Pro gas block barrel
The Gen III is currently unavailable but here is a screen shot with price: $610.00
38229
Here are the Noveske marked Troy flip up sights that are currently unavailable $225.00 (the screenshot is the front $99)
38230
And here is a ALG ACT trigger $69.00
38231
so far we have spent $1921.34 not including tax or shipping.
We still need an upper/lower parts kit from Continental Machine & Tool, buffer tube, buffer and spring, endplate and castle nut $180
Sub Total $2225.34
Tax (texas) $183
Total $2408.34
Shipping (per Noveske) $178 (2nd day air)
Grand total $2586.34 and we have to assemble it ourselves:(
I don't need to justify why I spent $2500 on a Noveske or 4 of them for that matter. I don't need to justify why I spent $2400 on a KAC either. I like both. I like the details in the in the Noveske, seamless transitional body lines with almost hexagonal upper receiver, machined relieves around bolt catch and magazine release, integrated mag well, stainless steel barrel. I like those things found in a Noveske.
Please. You are going for the most expensive sources and missing the point.
You can get the parts Noveske uses, SMOS upper and lowers, Vltor uppers, ect for way less not branded as Noveske. The whole point is Noveske branded items are a terrible value.
And shipping + tax? Please, you clearly need to stretch to justify your purchase to yourself.
A) who orders items from the same state they live in? Not I or any one sane. Pick one. Personally I prefer shipping to tax.
B) 178$ for overnight? That seems a little opulent to me? How about we settle for regular old ground shipping. Also many stores offer free shipping at times. SMOS shipped my GFY lower for 7$.
Let's just call it 2000$ to build while purposefully finding the parts the most expensive way.
If you enjoy your Noveske rifles power on, good for you. But don't try to make it seem way more espensive to build than it is. I built a 1500$ 'noveske' spr on a SMOS lower, Vltor VIS upper/rail and an actual Noveske barrel for 1500$. It also has a real trigger in it...
MichaelVain
03-09-16, 09:10
More personable, maybe not, but it'd be nice if they didn't make you pay for shipping back to them for parts that broke under warranty or arrived missing pieces.
I'm not sure when this happened to you, but I just sent my 9.5" and 11.5" SR30 uppers in to swap for the new FH because KAC found that now with a whole bunch of newish 300 BLK sub ammo coming out, the 1st gen FH might cause destabilization with some ammo. Going forward KAC is using the new 6 slot Fh instead of 5 slot FH.
I asked if I could swap mine out and Jack indicated that I could RMA it back. I sent my uppers in last week, I just received shipping notice this morning, 5 day TAT. All I did was pay to send it in, they are paying for shipping back.
Short of putting me #1 on the waiting list for an SR47, I'm not sure how they could have handled this any better. They are essentially letting us RMA something back just in case we ever run some finicky ammo.
Primus Pilum
03-09-16, 09:33
Do you think MLOK is better?
Absolutley. After owning them both the keymod has been ditched. QD Mlock from KDG is awesome.
I'm not sure when this happened to you, but I just sent my 9.5" and 11.5" SR30 uppers in to swap for the new FH because KAC found that now with a whole bunch of newish 300 BLK sub ammo coming out, the 1st gen FH might cause destabilization with some ammo. Going forward KAC is using the new 6 slot Fh instead of 5 slot FH.
I asked if I could swap mine out and Jack indicated that I could RMA it back. I sent my uppers in last week, I just received shipping notice this morning, 5 day TAT. All I did was pay to send it in, they are paying for shipping back.
Short of putting me #1 on the waiting list for an SR47, I'm not sure how they could have handled this any better. They are essentially letting us RMA something back just in case we ever run some finicky ammo.
The difference is that nothing failed on your products whereas mine either did or were deficient out of the box. My MAMS was missing the index pin (out of the box) and my Knight's bipod somehow lost its panning lock feature (I think a pin fell out and the lever to lock it just freely swings around now). BTW if you have one of these bipods put some thread locker on the screws near the leg length adjustment button. When I was inspecting my bipod I found that one of those screws had almost backed all the way out.
Maybe I'm just spoiled by some other companies listed in this thread that take care of shipping for you both ways and other higher value item companies. For instance, I tend to buy nicer shoes, and it's common for those companies to pay shipping both ways when there's a defect in their item. Heck, they even have free return shipping if I don't like something.
Primus Pilum
03-09-16, 09:40
DD makes the lightest quad-rail I am aware of, and their MLOK and KM rails are sensible (ie. there are no "my rail broke and my VFG came off..." threads about them).
DD makes an excellent barrel. They are the only hammer forger that I know of who forges the chamber at the same time as the bore. This is "one less chance to dick it up" and ensures concentric chamber-to-bore.
DD hand-polishes their feed ramps on all of their barrels, and knocks the corners off of the barrel extension feed-ramps at the top. This exact lack of attention is what caused a ton of malfunctions in another rifle of mine.
DD uses a quality LPK. It's not fancy. It's not "special". But it's good kit and I've never heard of one breaking or not fitting in-spec weapons.
DD has actual people's actual initials on QA/QC check-offs that come with the rifle. This matters to me. Why? Because unless you're a complete shit of a person, when you sign/initial your name to something you claim to have done, you take more pride in it than if it anonymously passes through your hands/work-station.
BCM makes a good rifle. I prefer DD because I like DD. It's an EMOTIONAL preference. They both send very good weapons out the door. However, to say DD offers nothing over BCM is incorrect. They are an actual MANUFACTURER, and this gives them much more control over the product. They are not at the mercy of someone to make their barrels "the way they want them", etc. Doubly incorrect is saying their rails are all heavy, etc. The RIS II is heavy, but that's about that.
Good Points. Just wanted to point out that Colt doesn't make most of their parts in house and still makes a fantastic (many would consider the standard considering TDP/ect yada). Its up to who they source, how they source it and QC that is done. The .gov and contractors all sub out critical components for the most advanced technological systems the world has ever known. Lockheed, BARE, NG or Boeing hardly makes anything in house. They source from the best companies who have a good reputation and then QC/test the product to ensure they comply with the specs. Making something in house offers nothing other than control. Many times someone else can do it better/faster/cheaper because that is their core business. KAC does the same thing. Making something inhouse doesn't really effect the end product unless there is some proprietary technology that you own and control.
Primus Pilum
03-09-16, 09:44
The difference is that nothing failed on your products whereas mine either did or were deficient out of the box. My MAMS was missing the index pin (out of the box) and my Knight's bipod somehow lost its panning lock feature (I think a pin fell out and the lever to lock it just freely swings around now). BTW if you have one of these bipods put some thread locker on the screws near the leg length adjustment button. When I was inspecting my bipod I found that one of those screws had almost backed all the way out.
Maybe I'm just spoiled by some other companies listed in this thread that take care of shipping for you both ways and other higher value item companies. For instance, I tend to buy nicer shoes, and it's common for those companies to pay shipping both ways when there's a defect in their item. Heck, they even have free return shipping if I don't like something.
Ran into this as well with a bipod mount I bought from one of the big 2 KAC vendors. It was missing half the parts and they wanted to me pay all this money shipping it back and forth instead of just sending me the parts I needed. Got pissed and and bought someone elses mount instead. Its still sitting on my desk here in a box. PITA especially when you have spend upwards of 10K with the company over the last few years.
Please. You are going for the most expensive sources and missing the point.
You can get the parts Noveske uses, SMOS upper and lowers, Vltor uppers, ect for way less not branded as Noveske. The whole point is Noveske branded items are a terrible value.
And shipping + tax? Please, you clearly need to stretch to justify your purchase to yourself.
A) who orders items from the same state they live in? Not I or any one sane. Pick one. Personally I prefer shipping to tax.
B) 178$ for overnight? That seems a little opulent to me? How about we settle for regular old ground shipping. Also many stores offer free shipping at times. SMOS shipped my GFY lower for 7$.
Let's just call it 2000$ to build while purposefully finding the parts the most expensive way.
If you enjoy your Noveske rifles power on, good for you. But don't try to make it seem way more espensive to build than it is. I built a 1500$ 'noveske' spr on a SMOS lower, Vltor VIS upper/rail and an actual Noveske barrel for 1500$. It also has a real trigger in it...
So, your going to do what everyone hates Noveske for doing and source parts from different manufactures and assemble a kit gun? Everyone repeatedly says I can get the same look and same gun for a lot cheaper". Noveske built there business on there name. Which is why everyone has heard of them. There are more forums dedicated to Noveske than "look a likes". Also, like I mentioned, I just sold 2 in the EE, I sold both the Infidel and Recon for $100 less than I paid over a year ago and i sold them in 2 days. That might be a good reason to spend the money on a brand name rather than piece a gun together using the OEM parts.
So, your going to do what everyone hates Noveske for doing and source parts from different manufactures and assemble a kit gun? Everyone repeatedly says I can get the same look and same gun for a lot cheaper". Noveske built there business on there name. Which is why everyone has heard of them. There are more forums dedicated to Noveske than "look a likes". Also, like I mentioned, I just sold 2 in the EE, I sold both the Infidel and Recon for $100 less than I paid over a year ago and i sold them in 2 days. That might be a good reason to spend the money on a brand name rather than piece a gun together using the OEM parts.
We aren't the ones building a business doing that.
I suppose i would be concerned with resell value when i an spending $500 more just to have a cross on my lower
Primus Pilum
03-09-16, 17:23
So, your going to do what everyone hates Noveske for doing and source parts from different manufactures and assemble a kit gun? Everyone repeatedly says I can get the same look and same gun for a lot cheaper". Noveske built there business on there name. Which is why everyone has heard of them. There are more forums dedicated to Noveske than "look a likes". Also, like I mentioned, I just sold 2 in the EE, I sold both the Infidel and Recon for $100 less than I paid over a year ago and i sold them in 2 days. That might be a good reason to spend the money on a brand name rather than piece a gun together using the OEM parts.
Why would I pay someone $1000 to do something I can do in less than an hour?
Sorry but I shoot my guns. I buy the best so I don't have to upgrade or sell them in a few years. These aren't stocks, they are fighting tools. If they were such great guns, you wouldn't have sold them.
KAC is the only factory AR you can't build. Everything else can be pieced together if you have an IQ above 80. Why pay someone else a ridiculous premium when you can do it yourself, develop some skills and have a headstart if/when you need to diagnose a problem or failure. Not to mention when I build it, I know its right and there is no question other than random parts failure which is unavoidable (which is why you buy a KAC in the first place).
So, your going to do what everyone hates Noveske for doing and source parts from different manufactures and assemble a kit gun? Everyone repeatedly says I can get the same look and same gun for a lot cheaper". Noveske built there business on there name.
You are still totally missing it here. You are not hearing what people are saying.
People are not hating Noveske. People are saying they would not recommend them because they lack value. They say you can have the equivalent rifle and not pay an extra 600$ for the name.
I didn't make a look alike. I used they same parts they do. Same manufacturers. Vltor, SMOS, Smith and the like.
They are the same parts with out the 600$ name on them. They have the name of the company that made them on them. The same company that made them for Noveske.
You bought a name. You are happy with it, that's what counts. However for someone looking to purchase a rifle to use vs. 'own' I'd suggest spending money on innovation and not a name. Though you really get both with KAC and for less.
The only appeal Noveske has is its name. If you're not a brand whore there is no appeal and equivalent guns can be bought for less. You might get some oohs and ahhs in your social circle when you tell them about your Noveske, but my rifle goes bang just like yours. With the money I saved I can make it go bang 2000 times more. If you're not actually shooting it much that probably doesn't apeal. If I told your friends about my gun I pieced together I doubt they would be impressed, but I didn't build it for that. I built it to fill a role and for the enjoyment of making something. A name didn't interest me.
The whole point to this thread was if you had $2500 in your pocket, would you buy a Warsport or KAC. Then the discussion moved on to Noveske vs. KAC. I have both. I had 6 Noveskes, I sold 2 and now I have 4, I have 3 KAC sr15's as well as many other AR's. I am not comparing the two side by side. But everyone seems to hate Noveske because they are out of their financial reach and then say they could build a replica themselves for a lot cheaper. No one is arguing with you on what you can build with parts you found through other sources. If you can replicate a Noveske for $1500, more power to you, but that isn't a reason to argue or ask someone to validate there reason to pay a premium.
I think we've reached the point here where it no longer serves a purpose to have this thread continue on.
The whole point to this thread was if you had $2500 in your pocket, would you buy a Warsport or KAC. Then the discussion moved on to Noveske vs. KAC...
Hey now, don't forget our tangent about KAC CS and how they can improve too! =P
Primus Pilum
03-09-16, 18:47
The whole point to this thread was if you had $2500 in your pocket, would you buy a Warsport or KAC. Then the discussion moved on to Noveske vs. KAC. I have both. I had 6 Noveskes, I sold 2 and now I have 4, I have 3 KAC sr15's as well as many other AR's. I am not comparing the two side by side. But everyone seems to hate Noveske because they are out of their financial reach and then say they could build a replica themselves for a lot cheaper. No one is arguing with you on what you can build with parts you found through other sources. If you can replicate a Noveske for $1500, more power to you, but that isn't a reason to argue or ask someone to validate there reason to pay a premium.
Many of us own multiple SR-15's so the premise that Noveske is out of our reach is laughable. It comes down to value. The value is just not there with the iron cross. There is nothing tangible there to justify the massive increase in price over other similar products.
If I could build a SR-15 for $1500, I would do it in a heartbeat and save $600. When someone figures out how to crack that nut, let me know.
Many of us own multiple SR-15's so the premise that Noveske is out of our reach is laughable. It comes down to value. The value is just not there with the iron cross. There is nothing tangible there to justify the massive increase in price over other similar products.
If I could build a SR-15 for $1500, I would do it in a heartbeat and save $600. When someone figures out how to crack that nut, let me know.
...justify the massive increase in price over other same products...
I think that's what you meant, right?
KAC SR-15, any day & everyday.
QUICK AND DIRTY. DISCUSS WARSPORT v. KAC. LEAVE ALL THE OTHER NONSENSE ALONE.
Well hell, didn't read the post above mine and was replying to another...so...edit.
The KAC is a fighting gun, and the Warsport LVOA is more of a "gamer gun". It has a heavy barrel for 450 yard 3-gun targets, not a LW/med barrel for carrying all day. That is the first clue about what a firearm like this is for, IMO. If it has a HEAVY barrel, there is no way in hell it's meant to be a serious work tool, unless you have stipulated OTB performance, lol
Many of us own multiple SR-15's so the premise that Noveske is out of our reach is laughable. It comes down to value. The value is just not there with the iron cross. There is nothing tangible there to justify the massive increase in price over other similar products.
If I could build a SR-15 for $1500, I would do it in a heartbeat and save $600. When someone figures out how to crack that nut, let me know.
When KAC sells matching E3 barrels/BCG's...let me know! :P
Boba Fett v2
03-09-16, 22:54
QUICK AND DIRTY. DISCUSS WARSPORT v. KAC. LEAVE ALL THE OTHER NONSENSE ALONE.
That discussion died a peaceful death a few pages back, and was only resurrected when someone decided that it was a good idea to bring Noveske into it. Everything that needed to be said to answer the OP's question was heaped on with extra thick sauce, and thus overwhelmingly eliminating any doubt who was the victor in that discussion. I say we end the misery and lock her up.
That discussion died a peaceful death a few pages back, and was only resurrected when someone decided that it was a good idea to bring Noveske into it. Everything that needed to be said to answer the OP's question was heaped on with extra thick sauce, and thus overwhelmingly eliminating any doubt who was the victor in that discussion. I say we end the misery and lock her up.
It was actually the OP who first mentioned the Noveske vs KAC...but I agree time to put this dog down.
leibermuster
03-13-16, 16:11
Wait
What did he buy in the end?
Torquetard
03-14-16, 13:44
How are those 3 prong flash hiders? Thinking about grabbing an Sr15 with that setup, but it's 14.5" so i wouldn't have the option to conveniently remove it like on a 16". Probably not going to run suppressed anyway
How are those 3 prong flash hiders? Thinking about grabbing an Sr15 with that setup, but it's 14.5" so i wouldn't have the option to conveniently remove it like on a 16". Probably not going to run suppressed anyway
if you're buying it new, the 3 prong won't be pinned on so you can put whatever else you want on there before you have it pinned/welded.
Linebacker
03-14-16, 20:21
Wait
What did he buy in the end?
Probably the SR15's bitter rival, Bushmaster. :-)
leibermuster
03-15-16, 17:37
Probably the SR15's bitter rival, Bushmaster. :-)
That would be a tight choice, at least he could do was get a KAC RAS for it, GTG..lol.
patriot_man
03-17-16, 03:55
While many discount the Warsport as a just a pretty rifle I've heard the Warsport has been tested by a SMU.
Not sure if there is any truth behind this but it would be pretty with a track record?
While many discount the Warsport as a just a pretty rifle I've heard the Warsport has been tested by a SMU.
Not sure if there is any truth behind this but it would be pretty with a track record?
I don't know if I can name a single AR company that isn't "used by a SMU" or "endorsed by a tier 1 operator" or something similar.
Unless there is hard proof, it means nothing. And even if there is hard proof of use, it doesn't necessarily mean anything.
While many discount the Warsport as a just a pretty rifle I've heard the Warsport has been tested by a SMU.
Not sure if there is any truth behind this but it would be pretty with a track record?
Steve Reichert has posted numerous times on social media that he is impressed with them. However that wont persuade me to purchase a Warsport over an SR15.
While many discount the Warsport as a just a pretty rifle I've heard the Warsport has been tested by a SMU.
Not sure if there is any truth behind this but it would be pretty with a track record?
That's been their claim for quite some time now. This is where the whole requirement for "low visibility / no suppressor" nonsense started.
Steve Reichert has posted numerous times on social media that he is impressed with them. However that wont persuade me to purchase a Warsport over an SR15.
These days, I take celebrity gun guy endorsements with a grain of salt. Too many guys selling out for a free gun or a check. I'm not accusing Mr. Reichert of such, just saying that endorsements don't carry much weight anymore.
Boba Fett v2
03-17-16, 12:02
While many discount the Warsport as a just a pretty rifle I've heard the Warsport has been tested by a SMU.
Not sure if there is any truth behind this but it would be pretty with a track record?
Means two things:
Jack and Shit
I don't know if I can name a single AR company that isn't "used by a SMU" or "endorsed by a tier 1 operator" or something similar.
Unless there is hard proof, it means nothing. And even if there is hard proof of use, it doesn't necessarily mean anything.
You know that area (probably). There are several "boutique" AR manufacturers in central NC, close to Bragg, and it's not unheard of that some of these ARs end up at the range there. You know how it goes..."hey, would you mind shooting this?" goes to "used by a Tier 1 unit."
While many discount the Warsport as a just a pretty rifle I've heard the Warsport has been tested by a SMU.
Not sure if there is any truth behind this but it would be pretty with a track record?
Yawn… Great they 'tested' it. What matters is the result they had. Did they find it to be total crap or was it the most uberest of rifles they had ever had the privilege of touching? With out results who cares, you statement is utterly meaningless and with out merit.
I believe there is a legit guy that likes them, but can a standard parts gun be any better than bcm or daniel defense.... or rainier, etc, etc, etc
I believe there is a legit guy that likes them, but can a standard parts gun be any better than bcm or daniel defense.... or rainier, etc, etc, etc
Warsport has alluded for quite a long while that they designed the guns to fit a specific mission profile for an SMU. But when asked for more specific information the response was always along the lines of "can't say anything else. Because, secret squirrel stuff." It's a load of horse crap. They may have given some guns to guys at Bragg to play around with and some of those guys may like the guns, but there's nothing special about the LVOA. It's no different than guys endorsing Salient. And we all know that Salient guns are dressed up, over priced, average guns.
There was a time when Noveske really did offer some things that others didn't. But that was 10 years ago. These days, BCM and Sionics offer the best quality for the money. And if you're going to spend more than that, the KAC SR15 is the only gun that offers significant design improvements that would justify the added expense.
I saw one verified guy post a pic of his personal gun, war sport
And I'd agree, but you could include lmt, maybe vltor or even some piston guns in the list of innovators
Definitely don't understand kac prices for guns that can't be better than bcm/sionics/etc
I still want a kac but honestly probably aren't good enough to notice the difference
Boba Fett v2
03-19-16, 11:49
I saw one verified guy post a pic of his personal gun, war sport
And I'd agree, but you could include lmt, maybe vltor or even some piston guns in the list of innovators
Definitely don't understand kac prices for guns that can't be better than bcm/sionics/etc
I still want a kac but honestly probably aren't good enough to notice the difference
You're paying for R&D and everything the rifle comes standard with that guys pay to upgrade to. The intermediate length gas system, improved Mod 2 gas block, E3 bolt and the full ambi lower receiver alone are signifiant improvements over standard carbines and mid-length rifles. When you add it all up you arrive at the price point of a KAC. Just a question, but have you ever shot a KAC rifle?
Clarifying, I don't get companies asking the same price as a KAC when they only offer a basic parts assembled gun that would appear to offer nothing more than a bcm, colt, DD.
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