CSAT Javelin

[RE1]

I am interested in educated opinions on this rifle. From what I can read on the website, it appears to be an interesting and well made product. Any intelligent input is much appreciated.


http://www.hunterrifleworks.com/csat

[mack7.62]

Holy crap $2,600 to save a pound, no thanks.

[JulyAZ]

I think you could build a rifle at the same weight for a lot cheaper than that.

[Brahmzy]

LOL. It's a Frankenrifle built with a bunch of name brand parts being sold by a different name brand, quite literally. V7, Faxon, Sharps etc. might as well just build one yourself.

[Fluffy Bunny]

Holy crap $2,600 to save a pound, no thanks.

I assume that a fair piece of the price is the bcg, which has an adjustable key and S7 "reliabolt".

edit: looked up the cost of a np3 s7 reliabolt and it's far less than I had guessed. Looks like I failed at this thread.

[RE1]

Thank you all for your input so far.

[MountainRaven]

Interesting that it comes with a lifetime guarantee... that includes parts wearing out.

Also interesting is the UK-legal option - somewhat curious as to price, as their UK distributor doesn't list the rifle. (And on a related note, apparently S&W makes a factory SBR version of the M&P15-22... which they don't seem to offer here.)

I'm curious if Paul Howe could only have one whether he would take this one or the Wilson Combat model. And why.

[Tzook]

I can't say the materials look low quality, because they don't, at all. That being said, a 4 something pound rifle for 2600 is cool, but a KAC SR15 for like 18-1900 and then like 3 cases of crappy 223 on top of that is waaayyyyyyyyy cooler.

[zackmars]

Sharps reliabolt on a $2600 rifle? Lol, that's a negative ghost rider. Even if it had an e3 bolt and extension, thats way too much.

[jackblack73]

Sharps reliabolt

On a $2600 rifle? Lol, thats a negative ghost rider. Even if it had an e3 bolt and extension, thats way too much

I swear I've read about more Reliabolts failing than any other bolt.

[Uprange41]

The rifle looks like a fine gun, and I really doubt Paul would put his name on a rifle that was anything but excellent. I just think that $2600 would make me really question my needs, when I'm in KAC territory. I'm not one to get wrapped up in cost, or suggest "you could build that for less!", but that really is the case here... it's mostly third party parts. Either way, if the weight savings is of value to you, and you don't want to be assed with building, I don't see why it wouldn't be a good rifle.

[SteveL]

I am interested in educated opinions on this rifle. From what I can read on the website, it appears to be an interesting and well made product. Any intelligent input is much appreciated.


http://www.hunterrifleworks.com/csat


I'm curious what it is you find appealing about this rifle in particular. Is it the light weight?

[RE1]

I'm curious what it is you find appealing about this rifle in particular. Is it the light weight?


I have a few KACs and Colts, so not buying anything else at this time. I mostly wanted to get opinions from educated guys on here regarding some of the parts (like the relia bolt, for example) as I am not familiar with some of these. Most of you nailed my main concern with this rifle, the cost. Thanks for the input.

[nolt]

I don't like the pinned 14.5" barrel. I know they're sometimes a good option. I have one. But I'd not want to buy a rifle like that with the pinned A2. (Or pinned anything.)

[PrivateCitizen]

The number of "boutique" rifles and the prices have gotten out of hand, I think.

And pinned A2 at that price point? You kinda know all you need to right there.

I suppose they have merit if you want something like those fancy gold 1911s that are purely showpieces. Short of a KAC factory SR15 I can't see spending more on than $2.5K on any "user" AR in 556/300… (just maybe a Noveske if you just had to have the original DI pinnacle of design.)

[Primus Pilum]

That is a $1000 parts gun at best. Just another name trying to cash out their military service for a piece of pie.

Almost laughable but some fool will buy it.

[redmist]

We had the rifle in our booth at SHOT show, and I liked it very much. I can tell you that Paul has put a lot of scrutiny in the rifle from what I have heard. I have not shot or used it however.

It's far from a "$1000 parts gun" though! You won't be building that rifle for $1000, and I don't think Paul Howe would use the rifle you built for him for $1000 either.


We supply some of the parts for the rifle, so I figured I would chime in.


Ryan

[Primus Pilum]

We had the rifle in our booth at SHOT show, and I liked it very much. I can tell you that Paul has put a lot of scrutiny in the rifle from what I have heard. I have not shot or used it however.

It's far from a "$1000 parts gun" though! You won't be building that rifle for $1000, and I don't think Paul Howe would use the rifle you built for him for $1000 either.


We supply some of the parts for the rifle, so I figured I would chime in.


Ryan

I don't care if Eugene Stoner designed it, its a $1000 parts gun and that is being generous. There is nothing special about it. $50 trigger, junk stock, no name rail that prolly cost $20 to make, no name barrel, pinned A2, a gimmick BCG that is just one more thing to fail, and a few parts that are typical AL/ST made of titanium that result in hardly any real weight savings.

A SR15 is literally twice the gun for $500 less. I could built a rifle just as reliable, in the same weight class with better parts for around $1K. Where is the extra $1500 going? A few gimmick parts and the name of a SMU trainer? Howe is a very respected member of the community, in fact I own his Mog doccumentry which is excellent. But there is nothing in that parts gun (which it is) that jumps out as best in class , and sure as hell does not come close to the quality/performance of a SR15 at much less cost. Hell you could buy a new Colt 6720, Put a SSA, MK8 rail, Comp of your choice, new stock, new sights and a T2/mount combo and STILL come out ahead with actual proven, known parts.

Now tell me, how much money do you think they really have in building that gun? Buying parts in bulk, how much profit do you think is built into that after taxes/FET? Unreal.

[redmist]

I don't care if Eugene Stoner designed it, its a $1000 parts gun and that is being generous. There is nothing special about it. $50 trigger, junk stock, no name rail that prolly cost $20 to make, no name barrel, pinned A2, a gimmick BCG that is just one more thing to fail, and a few parts that are typical AL/ST made of titanium that result in hardly any real weight savings.

A SR15 is literally twice the gun for $500 less. I could built a rifle just as reliable, in the same weight class with better parts for around $1K. Where is the extra $1500 going? A few gimmick parts and the name of a SMU trainer? Howe is a very respected member of the community, in fact I own his Mog doccumentry which is excellent. But there is nothing in that parts gun (which it is) that jumps out as best in class , and sure as hell does not come close to the quality/performance of a SR15 at much less cost. Hell you could buy a new Colt 6720, Put a SSA, MK8 rail, Comp of your choice, new stock, new sights and a T2/mount combo and STILL come out ahead with actual proven, known parts.

Now tell me, how much money do you think they really have in building that gun? Buying parts in bulk, how much profit do you think is built into that after taxes/FET? Unreal.


You want me to tell you how much they are paying for parts??

Well if it's a $20 no name rail, it's got a 2.3 million $ Makino A51NX Machining center attached to it... Do you want that included in the cost breakdown?

Not sure how to even respond to this, sorry. I figured I would provide some input since I have actually held one, and am making parts for the rifle. It's a nice rifle.


Ryan

[Primus Pilum]

You want me to tell you how much they are paying for parts??

Well if it's a $20 no name rail, it's got a 2.3 million $ Makino A51NX Machining center attached to it... Do you want that included in the cost breakdown?

Not sure how to even respond to this, sorry. I figured I would provide some input since I have actually held one, and am making parts for the rifle. It's a nice rifle.


Ryan

And Remington, Ruger, ect all have multi-million dollar Hammer forging machines that pump out questionable quality barrels for less than $10 a pop. Machinery that gets depreciated and written off over time. I'll still take a traditional cut rifled barrel on old pratt and whitney rifling machines that are 100 years old and cost a fraction of the CHF machine. People don'y buy multi-Million dollar machines because they look pretty. A guy on a Bridgeport and lathe can do the same thing, only slower. Is the rail the ONLY thing made on there? Since you brought up machinery cost what does the depreciation/write off look like and how many widgets to break even?

Do you know the cost of parts? I know the barrel retails for $160, so you can infer what the bulk OEM pricing would be. Same with many of the other known parts. What about this rifle makes it worth the $2600? Not being facetious, We would really like to know what that $2600 gets us.

[redmist]

I think you might be a little (WAY) off on what it costs to manufacture a barrel. Nobody is pumping out barrels for $10 a pop. I assume you are joking here to make a point of some sort, but not sure what it is yet.

The rail is not the ONLY thing made on there no, I won't be divulging our companies depreciation schedule to you ever, and for sure not on an internet forum. hehe

Yes I know the cost of parts.

I don't know what the $2600 gets you, I only make parts for it, so I have no idea what all else goes into it. It's not a "$20 rail at best" I can assure you that however.

I felt it was a real nice rifle, and it's backed by a guy who obviously doesn't just sell out at the drop of a hat. It sounds like you have much more time and experience with this rifle than I do, and you are able to build a 5 pound rifle with better parts, for $1000. So anything I might add would just be wasted breath.

If you have a parts list of a 5 lb rifle with much better parts for $1000 I would be glad to pass that information on to CSAT. I am sure they are interested in bringing the cost down wherever possible??

Thanks in advance!

Ryan

[Primus Pilum]

Hey man, I wasn't trying to be hostile or accuse you of anything. You brought up the machine costs so I was just trying to prove a point. No ill will towards ya.

You would be surprised what the cost of some of the large manufactures parts are. Labor and bennies are by far their biggest cost, hence why they are consolidating companies and moving to right to work states. Estimate for remington to pump out a barrel was around $12 not that many years ago from an insider. CHF machines pump em out VERY cheap but you need high volume to realize the cost savings as the capital up front is painful.

I'm about 4 hours south of you. Next time I come up to do some shopping, I'll look into grabbing one of your lowers.

[redmist]

Next time you come this way, shoot me an E-mail ryan@2a-arms.com and I will walk you through the facility and give you the 5 cent tour.

We have lots of stuff on the inside not seen on the outside. ;)


Ryan

[WS6]

I am interested in educated opinions on this rifle. From what I can read on the website, it appears to be an interesting and well made product. Any intelligent input is much appreciated.


http://www.hunterrifleworks.com/csat

Bcg is junk. The rest of the rifle looks quality. It is about $1k overpriced for what is offered, imo.

The barrel is not expensive at all.
The ti parts add a tiny surcharge.
The upper and lower, I dunno actual costs, but I doubt it's more than $800 for a matched set...

[Find ManBearPig!]

Nobody is pumping out barrels for $10 a pop.

O.k, I know this might not necessarily apply to other firearm designs, but you can buy a brand new factory Ruger 10/22 hammer forged barrel for $45 on Brownells (http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/barrel-parts/rifle-barrels/barrel-blue-prod11011.aspx?avs%7cMake~~Model_1=Ruger__10%2f22). Now, is a $45 Ruger .22 LR barrel the highest quality thing in the world? Probably not. Would I trust a $45 barrel on my AR? Absolutely not. But, the point is, it doesn't seem all to impossible to me that in this specific case (factory standard profile Ruger 10/22 barrels), Ruger could very well be making this things for $10 each.

That said, when you take into account the cost of quality control, it seems impossible that any "good" barrel could be made for cheap, especially for firearms like the AR where even the most basic barrel designs have significantly more complexity to them versus a typical 10/22 barrel. People tend to like the Faxon barrels as a "budget" choice for AR builds, but even their least expensive 16 inch AR barrel is $170... Sure, that's a hell of a lot cheaper than a Noveske match grade, but it's still close to 4 times the cost of that 10/22 barrel. Now, I don't know what Faxon's numbers look like, but I have a very, very hard time believing the cost of making a standard AR barrel, and then putting it through the necessary quality control to assure it works correctly, can be anywhere close to $10.

[Primus Pilum]

O.k, I know this might not necessarily apply to other firearm designs, but you can buy a brand new factory Ruger 10/22 hammer forged barrel for $45 on Brownells (http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/barrel-parts/rifle-barrels/barrel-blue-prod11011.aspx?avs%7cMake~~Model_1=Ruger__10%2f22). Now, is a $45 Ruger .22 LR barrel the highest quality thing in the world? Probably not. Would I trust a $45 barrel on my AR? Absolutely not. But, the point is, it doesn't seem all to impossible to me that in this specific case (factory standard profile Ruger 10/22 barrels), Ruger could very well be making this things for $10 each.

That said, when you take into account the cost of quality control, it seems impossible that any "good" barrel could be made for cheap, especially for firearms like the AR where even the most basic barrel designs have significantly more complexity to them versus a typical 10/22 barrel. People tend to like the Faxon barrels as a "budget" choice for AR builds, but even their least expensive 16 inch AR barrel is $170... Sure, that's a hell of a lot cheaper than a Noveske match grade, but it's still close to 4 times the cost of that 10/22 barrel. Now, I don't know what Faxon's numbers look like, but I have a very, very hard time believing the cost of making a standard AR barrel, and then putting it through the necessary quality control to assure it works correctly, can be anywhere close to $10.

Yep.

You have to look at size of the company and type of production. Faxon barrels are button rifled which is a lower vollume process and more expensive per unit. CHF is MUCH cheaper as the vollume is much higher and why it is used by the big boys like Rem, Ruger ,ect.

But keep in mind all CHF is not equal. While Ruger and Remington make garbage barrel, Sako & FN make supurb CHF barrels that are every bit as good as the best button rifled barrels on the market. They give up just a tad to the top cut rifle barrels which is very impressive. Sako has a 5 shot sub MOA guarentee on every gun. The FN SPR is a chrome lined, hammer forged barrel that also shoots sub moa with good ammo. Both very impressive considering they are CHF barrels.

[Brahmzy]

DD makes some pretty nice CHF barrels. I know from personal experience.

[WS6]

Yep.

You have to look at size of the company and type of production. Faxon barrels are button rifled which is a lower vollume process and more expensive per unit. CHF is MUCH cheaper as the vollume is much higher and why it is used by the big boys like Rem, Ruger ,ect.

But keep in mind all CHF is not equal. While Ruger and Remington make garbage barrel, Sako & FN make supurb CHF barrels that are every bit as good as the best button rifled barrels on the market. They give up just a tad to the top cut rifle barrels which is very impressive. Sako has a 5 shot sub MOA guarentee on every gun. The FN SPR is a chrome lined, hammer forged barrel that also shoots sub moa with good ammo. Both very impressive considering they are CHF barrels.

Since when does Remington make a "garbage barrel?" The 700 PSS barrels are good for 1/4 MOA if you chase the threads and mount them in a blueprinted receiver.

[Primus Pilum]

Since when does Remington make a "garbage barrel?" The 700 PSS barrels are good for 1/4 MOA if you chase the threads and mount them in a blueprinted receiver.

LOL thats the funniest shit I have read in the last 10 years.

I mean seriously, where do you get guys like this?

[Jsp10477]

I've owned 2 PSS (308 &223), 1 LTR (308), 2 senderos (300 win mag & 7mm rem mag), and a couple of their varmint rifles (22-250 & 243 win). While none shot 1/4" groups, all but one shot average .75" @100 yards with hand loads worked up for them. All of them were older production guns made before Remington became what it is today.

[fivepointoh]

LOL thats the funniest shit I have read in the last 10 years.

I mean seriously, where do you get guys like this?

Maybe you should respond in some of those SCAR accuracy threads with some actual proof, before passing judgement on someone else. And if you aren't sure which ones they are, they're the ones you posted in claiming MOA or under at, what was it...600? 800?....

[WS6]

LOL thats the funniest shit I have read in the last 10 years.

I mean seriously, where do you get guys like this?

Granted, it's not a 10-shot group like Molon prefers...but does this look like a "garbage barrel"? Because that's what you're claiming.

http://www.snipercentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/tacops700p3.jpg

Here is a bit more info. Seems the author was not able to shoot the guaranteed sub-0.25MOA, but did manage 0.34MOA, and listed the caveat that the weather was in the 20's and tension on the stock could have loosened. If you care to read more:
http://www.snipercentral.com/tactical-operations-remington-700p-tune/

Anyway, pretty good for a "garbage barrel", no?


My main point, is that Remington's 700 platform is NOT limited by the barrel, but by the precision with which the actions are bedded, trued, etc. Typical PSS guns shoot 0.5-0.75MOA. This one seems to be doing better...with the same "garbage barrel" that you claim they use...

In years past, I have found Mel Ewing (the author/Sniper who wrote the review) to be a very personable source of information, and very candid. If you would like to discuss his groups with him, or his methodology, or whatever, I am sure he has notes on that range day, and would quite likely respond to a polite inquiry.

[WS6]

DD makes some pretty nice CHF barrels. I know from personal experience.

Agreed. Using a 1-4X optic with a 2MOA aimpoint point, I have been able to achieve sub-1.5 MOA 10 shot groups just shooting off the magazine while seated at the bench. This was using 70gr Browntip ammo. I am sure if I took the time with something like the TMK or whatever, I might do better.