View Full Version : Pour money into M&P?
Seems this topic never goes away. Even with a newer manufactured M&P9 (2014) the accuracy and trigger issues are still there. Trigger not so much, but in order to get the accuracy and trigger I want/need I'll have to spend another $150-$200 for a quality barrel and another for $150 or so for Apex Tactical parts. With that additional money I could almost get a Glock 17 which is GTG out of the box.
So my struggle is I really want to like the M&P, but I'm having a hard time with dropping another $300 or so into a $500 pistol. What are your thoughts? Should I "pull the trigger" on the additional parts or just go another direction.
Any particular reason that you are beholden to the M&P other than just preference? If not then maybe go to the Glock. Hell, why not look at H&K VP line, I can pretty much promise that they aren't going to suffer accuracy issues going from everything I see. I mean, I expect to spend some money on a new pistol to get it to where I want it, at least as far as the niceties, sights, mag release, and small things like that, but a new barrel does leave a bit of a negative taste in one's mouth.
I shot with a close friend yesterday and he is a huge S&W fan. In his opinion S&W is it. We were warming him up for a USPSA match and he was shooting his M&P 9MM. He told me he spent about $400 on the pistol to improve the trigger and get the pistol to shoot accurately.
Like cars, motorcycles or anything else, it's what you want to spend your money on.
I'm a big fan of the M&P for its ergonomics and that it's American made. I say it's well worth it.
That said, newer M&Ps don't have such bad triggers, I think they're just fine out of the box, especially with the improved reset of the newer ones.
Wth. I have a 2013 model M&P 9mm and its trigger is not bad. Short reset and you can feel the reset. Much better then the older ones. Mine is also plenty accurate. My first shots through it were in a training class. About 1000 rounds in 2 days. It did great. I have also shot a bunch of USPSA/IDPA with it. Have never had a problem with misses die to the accuracy of the pistol.
If you want a dead nuts accurate pistol with a great trigger then go to a CZ Shadow and don't look back. Otherwise the M&P will do fine for accuracy that you will ever "need".
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A daek is only $90. What kind of accuracy are you getting at 25 slow fire with mp vs glock? What do you expect?
I'm debating switching to glock from mp but it's for the cool stuff available. I shoot 40 and I'm leaning on staying mp fwiw.
I say no. I never liked the M&P and have always thought they were clunkers.
A Glock 17 or 34 would be my first choice, the Vp9 a close second.
Buy a Sig P320 and be happy. :D
Don't buy anything until you've shot the VP9. The SIG line feels nice too, and I need to shoot it. But so far, the VP9 is winning, and will be my next hand gun purchase if the SIG doesn't change my mind.
I had the pleasure to shoot the VP9 this weekend, and it completely changed my mind about polymer. It's no longer a necessary evil like the Glock. That gun was a pleasure to shoot.
The M&P isn't even in play for me, I'm not throwing good money after bad.
Sent while driving 80mph on the freeway
KalashniKEV
02-21-16, 23:30
So my struggle is I really want to like the M&P...
It's been a long time since the Magpul videos were released... it's time to let it go already...
donlapalma
02-22-16, 00:42
For me, there are just too many other excellent choices out there to even bother with the M&P. If you're struggling to like something, that should be your cue to move on.
Nightstalker865
02-22-16, 06:35
I've got a late 2013 build M&P9 that I really like, but is out classed by my VP9 hands down. I've got a little over 3000rds through the gun and it has never missed a beat. I just can't seem to make myself sell it even though I almost never shoot it anymore. It feels great in the hand and points very naturally, but I still shoot my VP9 and even a stock G17 better. So my advice would be to look at other platforms. The M&P truly is a money pit in comparison to say a VP9 or Sig P320 these days.
M&P9 Mods:
Apex DCAEK
Polished internals
Ameriglo Pro I-Dot sights
Full stipple job.
Another very strong vote for the VP9. Awesome, right out of the box.
Even better with a $19 Match Sear Spring - leave the Trigger Return Spring alone. It's wonderful.
GUNSLINGER733
02-22-16, 07:43
I've had both and went back and forth. I have now sold all but my m&p compact. I now have glock 17 & 19. Shoots great only negative I had was poa/poi with stock sights but they suck anyway.
Seems this topic never goes away. Even with a newer manufactured M&P9 (2014) the accuracy and trigger issues are still there. Trigger not so much, but in order to get the accuracy and trigger I want/need I'll have to spend another $150-$200 for a quality barrel and another for $150 or so for Apex Tactical parts. With that additional money I could almost get a Glock 17 which is GTG out of the box.
So my struggle is I really want to like the M&P, but I'm having a hard time with dropping another $300 or so into a $500 pistol. What are your thoughts? Should I "pull the trigger" on the additional parts or just go another direction.
If you're struggling to like the pistol, why own it? Maybe it's just not the pistol for you, as Glock is for me and others. Putting $ into something you don't seem to like already seem a bad plan to me. I liked the M&P and knew I'd enjoy it even more with better trigger and sites.
Let me say that I do like the M&P because of the ergonomics and also that I can get it with a thumb safety. The reset on my M&P is fine. Coming from shooting/carrying a 1911 for the better of 13 years I like having a thumb safety. Not having one is not a deal breaker, because I shoot my Glock 19 very well. I've shot a friends M&P that has a match barrel and Apex parts and it seems like a totally different pistol than mine. I have other friends who have put money into their M&Ps and enjoy them way more now than they did from the factory. I guess mostly I wish I didn't have to...
Wonder why S&W didn't consult with Randy Lee of Apex to help them improve the pistol when they did upgrades?
rebelsooner
02-22-16, 09:01
I switched from M&P to Glocks and haven't looked back. I was a big M&P guy, had 4 and now down to 1. Ergonomics on the M&P are great but in my opinion it needs a lot of extra stuff to get it close to where it should be and by the time you drop the $ it becomes a very expensive gun.
I was in your shoes and had the endless debate of what to switch to. I had no interest in Glocks because they always felt horrible but they shoot and shoot well. I compared a range Glock to my M&P with all the bells and whistles and the glock outshot my M&P. Not only do they shoot but the ONLY thing a glock needs is a new set of sights and some extra mags.
I checked all the latest and greatest and it came down to Sig, Glock, & Walther. I didn't particularly like the HK but I think the Walther is a great buy as is the Sig and you won't go wrong with either.
Good luck !
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Beat Trash
02-22-16, 09:36
I'm starting on my 10th year of carrying issued M&P9's and own a couple of personal examples. The trigger on the newer guns is a bit nicer than on older guns. But compared to other guns, it's "ok" at best.
The gen4 Glocks are an option as well.
But if you're not forced to live with the M&P, then I would look very hard at the HK VP9 and the Sig 320. I bought a VP9 shortly after they were available and last year I bought a Sig 320c.
The hardest thing to do to the HK VP9 to make it extremely serviceable was to figure out just what grip combination fit my hands. And this was only difficult because there are so many options. Truth be told the only thing I needed to do to the VP9 was to lube it, load it and shoot it. I rate the Sig 320 just slightly behind the VP9.
So for the OP, I would strongly suggest you go another direction instead of dumping money into a gun just to make it meet your standards.
I would not tell you to avoid buying a Glock. I would say try a VP9 or a Sig 320 first before you decide. You might find that there are other options for you than the Glock.
In a market saturated with excellent guns right out of the factory that don't need anything other than your preferred sights why continue with a platform that needs a $150 trigger upgrade to make it better?
When Ruger introduced their SR series of pistols they had a similar hinged style trigger then after about a year they went to a Glock style trigger. And the very trigger you're thinking about getting has a safety tab similar to a Glock trigger... along with every other striker fired pistol on the market... What does that tell you?
I say all this as an owner of an M&P Shield with APEX trigger in it.
I really wanted to like the M&P FS, and if I could find one for a super low price I would buy one, but they are simply out classed by everything else on the market. All S&W has to do is put an APEX trigger shoe in these guns and we wouldn't be having these discussions.
brickboy240
02-22-16, 10:20
I'd skip it and get a Glock 19 and call it good.
I know...I know....I too wish there was another reasonable alternative but in the striker world, it is very...VERY hard to justify going anywhere else but the Glock 19.
There are plenty of other pistols I would have "loved to have gone with" too but in the end, it is easiest to stick with the G19. Mags, holsters, accessories, overall performance - it is hard to beat.
Unless you absolutely cannot shoot it well...that platform is hard to beat.
rebelsooner
02-22-16, 10:55
Also, the size of the 19 is a big plus and everyone uses it as a baseline when comparing similar pistols. When I had my all of my M&P's I didn't think much of it as the 19 was between the full size and compact. I would carry both and could do it comfortably. Now after carrying the 19, its noticeably different and I find it to be just right.
Although, my favorite is still my 1911's...but they'll start to rotate out once the wx changes
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Inside every M&P shooter there is a Glock person trying to get out.
Inside every M&P shooter there is a Glock person trying to get out.
Here we go.... :stop:
brickboy240
02-22-16, 11:44
If all you had to do on an M&P to ensure 100% great function was to swap the sights or something else simple, you could make a better case for the pistol. However, that is not the reality of it.
Many of us wished the M&P was going to be great, but if you look back through time, S&W really does not have a stellar track record with their semi-auto center-fire pistols. Their revolvers have always been fantastic but their center-fire semi-autos range from very average to what the hell were they thinking?
The ergos on the M&Ps are nice but that is where it ends, if you ask me.
OK, just got on Brownells to see what I'd have to spend on upgrades. This is my struggle. I mean for $60 more I can get a blue label Glock 17...an entire pistol ready to go...not just parts....
Apex Grade Barrel $182.58
Apex AEK Trigger $74.54
Apex DCAEK $77.99
Shipping $7.95
Total $343.06
Throw in 10-8 Sights as a bonus $45.90
New total with sights $388.96
Plus what I already paid for the M&P $499
Grand Total $887.96
I didn't even include the price of the extra mags with 10-8 floor plates....
It's been a long time since the Magpul videos were released... it's time to let it go already...
Hahaha...awesome!!
OK, just got on Brownells to see what I'd have to spend on upgrades. This is my struggle. I mean for $60 more I can get a blue label Glock 17...an entire pistol ready to go...not just parts....
Apex Grade Barrel $182.58
Apex AEK Trigger $74.54
Apex DCAEK $77.99
Shipping $7.95
Total $343.06
Throw in 10-8 Sights as a bonus $45.90
New total with sights $388.96
Like many, I went 1911 -> M&P with the above upgrades -> Vp9. Out of the box, I prefer the Vp9 compared to the M&P with all those mods, and you have now exceeded the price of a Vp9 at that point. That seems to be a very typical path for people die hard 1911 shooters at least. Having said that, It's very unlikely you'd be unhappy with such an upgraded M&P and mine was/is excellent and I have no complaints. There was no VP9 when I started with the M&P, but I feel the VP9 takes to to the next level of striker fired polymer wonder pistols. Now if HK would change the location of that slide release (the only major complain of the VP9 i'm aware of) it would be win win.
I'd also add, people act as if they M&P needs any of those mods. The only "mod" I made to my first 9mm FS was to take a sharpy black out the white dots on the rear site, and put approx 5k trouble free rnds through it. I purchased a second, and did the above mods, and for sure, a much better pistol. It's my understanding of M&P has gotten better (Grant has a thread he's covered the changes made to each gen) , but I have only experience with the early gen product so cant compare them.
I wouldn't. Especially with the 320 now available.
lawusmc0844
02-22-16, 13:03
I tried M&Ps before and didn't care for them. Ergonomics actually felt weird compared my Glocks which I'm very comfortable with but my biggest issue with my sample size was the very gritty triggers. If I have to pay another $2-300 to get it working the way it should then it's not worth it IMO.
I wasn't too impressed with the rental VP9 I shot months ago despite the glowing reviews for it. Gritty trigger as well with a long reset and very snappy recoil. I wrote about it here months ago, of course I'm not going to discount VP9s but until I get to shoot more of them, I'm not impressed.
ETA
I paid around $500 each for my 3 Gen 3 Glock 19s when I was active duty. The only "upgrades" were night sights and Apex extractors as one had extraction issues out the box and the other one was losing tension after nearly 10k rounds. Everything thing else is stock and they have served me well. The 3rd Glock is for my dad so it doesn't get shot much and everything is stock. However it has no extraction issues at all, the closest to Perfection lol
Get the Glock. I own mainly Glock handguns but I shoot idpa with an mp pro with an apex trigger and ram kit. I just got a good deal on it at the time. Looking back I should have held out for the Glock 34. MP is great now, but I could have done more with a 34 for less.
PrivateCitizen
02-22-16, 13:32
Are you talking daily carry and actual training or "I just want a gun" and some range days.
Former, get the Glock, get some sites, get better.
I feel like the Sig P320 and HK VP9 are largely the "new" M&P. If they solve your particular dilemma in an expeditious way (like Will and the VP9) then have some of that.
But don't throw money at a platform to make work for you.
That's for cars (SAAB, Alfa Romeo, Studebaker,etc)
Seems this topic never goes away. Even with a newer manufactured M&P9 (2014) the accuracy and trigger issues are still there. Trigger not so much, but in order to get the accuracy and trigger I want/need I'll have to spend another $150-$200 for a quality barrel and another for $150 or so for Apex Tactical parts. With that additional money I could almost get a Glock 17 which is GTG out of the box.
So my struggle is I really want to like the M&P, but I'm having a hard time with dropping another $300 or so into a $500 pistol. What are your thoughts? Should I "pull the trigger" on the additional parts or just go another direction.
I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that Glocks are GTG right out of the box. Gen4 guns tend to outshoot Gen3 guns, but you can still get BTF issues and trigger quality seems to vary widely from gun to gun.
I’ve been down a couple of roads with triggers and barrels in polymer pistols. Once you put 4-5k rounds through any of them, they tend to be about as easy (or difficult) to shoot well as another make/model that has the same round count. Some of the upgrades may make life a bit easier, but there’s only so much you can do with the trigger on a polymer gun without sending it to someone like Gray Guns for very expensive competition-grade trigger work.
Barrels are another story, but I think that we’re often too quick to blame the barrel when other things may be at fault. Most OEM barrels—in any firearms, not just pistols—are actually pretty good. Accuracy will be excellent with one or two loads and unremarkable but acceptable everything else, but if you never test ammo, you may not find the one or two loads that your pistol shoots best. Premium barrels tend to be superbly accurate with one or two loads, excellent with a lot of loads, and pretty good with almost anything. But to get the very best groups, you have to find just the right load, which can mean a lot of time at a loading bench fiddling with components, keeping detailed records of your tests, and losing a lot of sleep over very small variables in performance. You also have to be an excellent shot to find these loads, but that's another thread.
For instance, I have two Gen3 G17s with Wilson barrels. They regularly make 4” groups at 50 yards with the one handload they prefer, and they shoot a couple of 115-grain factory loads nearly as well. Because of them, I swore for years that Wilson barrels were the way to go in Gen3 Glocks. Then I realized that some 147-grain loads will tumble at 25 yards and barely stay on the paper at 50 yards in those guns, and that the OEM barrels will outshoot the Wilson barrels with one specific cast bullet load. I know that’s not supposed to happen, but it did.
Match barrels have other issues as well. They can be less reliable if they’re fitted wrong, you have to keep them clean for best accuracy, and you may not see smaller groups until you get past 25 yards
If you don’t keep your pistol clean, if you don’t shoot beyond 15 yards, and if you don’t test ammo, then all a match barrel gets you is bragging rights.
Okie John
JackFanToM
02-22-16, 15:54
I did all of the upgrades to an m&p, and got it just about perfect, but then I sold it, bought a PPQ, and still wonder why the damn M&P wasn't like the PPQ out of the box. Your money, do what you want, but I recommend getting the gun you want out of the box (accurate with a good trigger and ergos) rather than altering another gun to be something it is inherently not.
rebelsooner
02-22-16, 16:09
I did all of the upgrades to an m&p, and got it just about perfect, but then I sold it, bought a PPQ, and still wonder why the damn M&P wasn't like the PPQ out of the box. Your money, do what you want, but I recommend getting the gun you want out of the box (accurate with a good trigger and ergos) rather than altering another gun to be something it is inherently not.
Exact same story with my friend. He's all in w/ the Walther and I about did the same thing but went with the glock, I think both are excellent.
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rebelsooner
02-22-16, 16:13
Inside every M&P shooter there is a Glock person trying to get out.
That's hilarious.
How many M&P people have moved to Glocks? We'll never know and some probably won't admit it either.
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JackFanToM
02-22-16, 16:17
I look at it this way, I built a great M&P for someone else, and I have the firearm I really wanted.
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Daily/duty carry.
The aek poly trigger is $35.
Is the hinged trigger causing you issues? What are they?
Do you need the barrel and dcaek? What kind of accuracy are you seeing with both glock and mp? I don't know your skill level, and glocks are great, but I think you may be over analyzing the price.
Are you seeing extreme vertical stringing at 25yds? Or are the groups round but larger than the glocks? What size are they?
Is the trigger causing you to jerk the trigger? It's hard to offer real advice without knowing this, other than g19 works for most people.
That's hilarious.
How many M&P people have moved to Glocks?
My guess, very few. Those were going to be Glock fans would been already. However, many who were die hard 1911 shooters who never found a polymer double stack pistol, the M&P was the pistol that finally did it. Hilton Yam would be the best known example of names people have heard of, but there's many others. M&P -> VP9 or Walther makes sens also, and it seems a common transitione. M&P to Glock makes no sense really. Apples and orange pistols to me other than they are polymer striker fired pistols. I also don't see many moving from Glock -> M&P for the same reasons. If they like Glocks, why would they bother?
I've been all over the map with handguns. Started with 1911s, several of them, including a couple of customs. Beretta, HK (USPs, P2000, P7s & VP9), M&P x 3, Sig (several classic P series, not the 320), CZ75s, Hi-Powers, Walther PPQ and a few others I'm sure I don't remember right now. But one thing has been a constant through all this, I kept coming back to Glocks. I currently own nothing but Glocks, 4 of them with 5 & 6 planned. I don't begrudge anyone on what ever brand they choose as choosing a handgun can be a very personal decision. It seems the overall consensus here is Glock, for some reason. I would say try several by what ever means necessary and make your own personal choice. Good luck.
dwhitehorne
02-22-16, 18:03
Why dump money into something you aren't 100 percent behind. I ditched most of my Glocks for the M&P since I never could shoot the Glocks well. Now my VP9 is the most accurate factory gun I've ever shot but I still have a Glock and M&P. Try the 320 also LE price is good. I look at it as decide on the platform you want and customize it. Don't try and make a plastic pistol what it is not, you will always be left wondering if you made the right choice
. Good luck, David
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-22-16, 18:13
In my experience the M&P is GTG. I like the P2000/VP9 a tad better in the accuracy dept, but the M&P has the best laser grips option of any plastic gun so the M&P wins. It is the best all-around plastic gun option IMHO.
KalashniKEV
02-22-16, 19:40
It is the best all-around plastic gun option IMHO.
WHOA!
Maybe it's just me but I don't have accuracy issues with my m&p. I can hit a 6in plate offhand at 25yds no problem. Will a match barrel help or do these people that complain about accuracy just need more practice? I have both glock and M&P And both are upgraded. The M&P has warren fiber optic sights apex trigger shoe, ram. The Glock has fiber optic sights, vickers slide stop, magazine release, talon grips. I shoot the M&P better but it's a 9L so the sight radius is longer. I don't pledge allegiance to either Glock or M&P, my guns are tools. To run and gun I choose my m&p, for a SHTF scenario I'll run the Glock Not for reliability reasons but guess what everyone else will be running? My guns are tools and will be used as such.
KalashniKEV
02-23-16, 09:57
Maybe it's just me but I don't have accuracy issues with my m&p. I can hit a 6in plate offhand at 25yds no problem.
Mine wouldn't do that rested.
Turns out besides the garbage trigger, Smith and Wesson didn't-actually-know how to make a 9mm barrel.
I'll never in a million years understand why some folks have so much patience for these junkers.
If any other company put out a long series of lemons like Smith did, they would be the laughing stock of the industry.
If any other company put out a pistol that needed to be gutted and rebuilt (at great expense) before it could hang with regular service pistols/ entry level handguns, they wouldn't sell one unit.
Those Magpul videos must have had quite an effect on the mind of Joe Sixpack...
Amazing what marketing and a beard can do eh? Never jumped on that bandwagon. I was utterly confused about it for probably a year.
I learned long ago, if I don't love a firearm, it's gone. I'd rather have 5 guns I love than 20 shitty ones I don't.
You should love the thing out of the box before dumping money into it.
The VP9 I loved it from the first time I put my hands on it and love it even more after its first few range sessions. It's a keeper for sure.
I guess I got a good one out of the 5 mentioned here lol. Mine shot fine from brand new to 1k rounds in 2 days without a hitch. That's with a TLR-1 attached AND running 147 grain powder puff loads that I use for USPSA. There have been multiple changes to internal parts that have fixed the issues that were a problem. Mine is GTG in my opinion.
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I have 2 FS M&P 9s. The first one I bought was in the first part of 2014. The gun has been great. I have over 7,000 rounds through it and it has not had a single thing done to it. It has the factory sights, trigger and barrel. The reset on the trigger is much nicer than an early M&P I played with. The redesign of the sear housing and the slide stop have pretty well eliminated the issue of weak reset. The gun can shoot very well too. I did a write up about some ammo using this gun and the accuracy it is capable of at 25 yards is more than acceptable. Here is a link to the article and some pictures of what the gun was capable of.
http://progunfighter.com/limitations-of-practice-handgun-ammo/
I also shot a brand new in the box Gen 4 Glock 17 for the article and the accuracy was very close to the M&P. The stock S&W trigger is heavy but once it polishes out with use it is more than workable.
I bought a second M&P to build a handgun with a RDS. This one was not as accurate from the factory but still could hold a roughly 6" group at 25 yards off hand. I had some other M&Ps to play with and swapped in another factory barrel that was much tighter fitting (something Smith should be checking at the factory). I have shot about 6,800 rounds through this gun. I have used it as a carry gun, a competition gun and taken it to several training classes. This gun shoots very well with a S&W barrel. I used this gun last year in the Area 5 USPSA match and was one of only 2 with a slide mounted RDS. The gun shot over 325 rounds that day and I finished with the rest of the A class open shooters. I shoot this gun weekly and I have outdone all the scores I have shot with my custom made 1911's with this gun. The RMR has allowed me to fine tune my point of aim but the gun has to be capable of the accuracy to make the hits count.
Most people are prone to hearing about problems but not putting in the effort to see if the problem actually applies to the gun they own. They have a bad day at the range or simply aren't as good as they hope and they will blame the equipment. You need realistic expectations of your ability and the ammo you are using. In the link above we found huge issues with the Grace ammo beyond 15 yards. This showed up with both the M&P and the Glock.
Here are some additional pictures of some targets from both my M&Ps - all shot with 124 grain Winchester +P JHP
1st M&P, stock with iron sights. Shot 2 hands standing at 25 yards
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/mike53818/DSCF8018_zpsum04mbrv.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/mike53818/media/DSCF8018_zpsum04mbrv.jpg.html)
2nd M&P with Trijicon RMR06, 1st is 25 yards (my 1st 100 point scoring target ever)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/mike53818/IMG_0614_zpsp9k9agln.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/mike53818/media/IMG_0614_zpsp9k9agln.jpg.html)
This group is from the 50 yard line and scored a 90 out of 100 points.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/mike53818/IMG_0619_zpswwgpmbqz.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/mike53818/media/IMG_0619_zpswwgpmbqz.jpg.html)
If you have question about the accuracy of the gun the easiest thing to check is the barrel to slide fit. Generally speaking if the gap between the front of the barrel hood and the front edge of the ejection port on the slide is more than .005" you may see accuracy issues. If it is .005" or tighter then the gun will not exhibit the issues.
Several other guys I work with are running M&Ps and having good accuracy with them. One of my supervisors won our last walk back drill by hitting a B/C steel with his box stock M&P 9 from 135 yards with the 1st shot.
crusader377
02-23-16, 13:27
To the OP. Although I'm a very happy M&P 9 owner, I would either send the pistol back to S&W to have them work on its accuracy and trigger issues and if you can't get it resolved, I would sell the gun and consider a new platform if it makes sense. I personally would not invest several hundreds of dollars into a gun that might be a lemon. The M&P if you have a good one is a great gun in the $400-$500 price point but there is no way in hell I would put $800+ into an M&P. There simply are too many more desirable guns out there for $800.
longaction556
02-23-16, 15:28
To the OP. Although I'm a very happy M&P 9 owner, I would either send the pistol back to S&W to have them work on its accuracy and trigger issues and if you can't get it resolved, I would sell the gun and consider a new platform if it makes sense. I personally would not invest several hundreds of dollars into a gun that might be a lemon. The M&P if you have a good one is a great gun in the $400-$500 price point but there is no way in hell I would put $800+ into an M&P. There simply are too many more desirable guns out there for $800.
I agree with you. I own the same thing and I'm very happy with it, but for $800 I'd quickly consider some different options. Or just get two :)
Dionysusigma
02-23-16, 19:28
I guess I got a good one out of the 5 mentioned here lol. Mine shot fine from brand new to 1000k rounds in 2 days without a hitch.
... you realize that's 1,000,000 (one million), right? That's a cyclic rate of about 347 rounds per minute, continuous... for two days. :blink: :sarcastic:
To add to the relevant topic, I used to have an M&P, but sold it off when I found I could consistently get no better than 1.5' (foot and a half) groups at fifteen yards. When i removed the slide and recoil assembly, the barrel was actually loose in the slide and would rattle around. Since then, I'd picked up a VP9 (which doesn't suffer from rattly barrel) and am happier than ever.
^^^ Fixed for your amusement ;)
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Primus Pilum
02-23-16, 20:16
^^^ Fixed for your amusement ;)
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Negative. I have a fortified M&P with full apex guts, dawson sights, ect I bought for the old lady cuz its purdy.
Stock VP9 blows it out of the water in every category.
I "tried on" a vp9 at the toy store and although it felt good in hand I couldn't get a good handle on it when I would release the magazine. I had to readjust my grip in a very weird and awkward angle every time, but it just didn't feel natural. That paddle would take time to get used to. That's another thing, my m&p magazine release is right there and no need to adjust my grip. My Glock I installed a vickers extended mag release to make it fit. Was it expensive? No, but I still had to spend money to make it work for me. Point is, I'm sure every gun could use a few dollars in upgrades to make it your own. If it legitimately is a factory issue/defect, I would hope the manufacturer would make it right.
I went through the same decision process with my M&P. I put an Apex trigger in it which helped, but I still had the old twist rate barrel. I moved to Glock and haven't looked back.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-23-16, 21:18
Quote Originally Posted by Greg Bell View Post
It is the best all-around plastic gun option IMHO.
WHOA!
I also really like the slide release layout on the M&P (as I do the FNX).
As an mp shooter and glock fan, it seems a lot of shooters mod the g19 trigger as well. Minus connectors, etc. Maybe I got lucky with my mp trigger but, it's "bad" as in it feels like crap, but the gun produces better groups than my cz with polished sao trigger did. Both are 40cal. The only difference is that I have grown as a shooter since moving away from the cz. I can see weight being an issue, but grittiness, reset, etc - does it really matter when you're punching the trigger, and fully releasing it 5 times a second?
Mine wouldn't do that rested.
I picked up my first M&P, an M&P 9, a few years ago (circa '13). During my first range outing, I had more failure-to-fires (light primer strikes), failure-to-feeds, and failure-to-ejects (stovepipes, erratic ejection) than rounds down range.
I was never able to get through a single magazine without several malfunctions.
To top it off, my groups (if you could even call them that) were all over the place. At first I thought it was me, despite the plethora of malfunctions. Fortunately, I had brought my Sig P229 in .40 along. At 7 yards, my groups with the P229 were spot-on.
Needless to say, I sent the M&P 9 back to S&W for some repairs. S&W returned the gun promptly, claiming they had fixed all of the issues (noticed I had a new barrel). S&W does have top-notch customer service. I will give them that.
Although the pistol was functional upon return, its "accuracy" was still subpar. I shot it against my G23, P229, PPQ, and HK45C and it just didn't measure up. I felt I could never fully trust the pistol. As much as I loved the ergonomics of the M&P 9, it did not accomplish any of the things I needed it to.
Fast forward to the introduction of the M&P 9 Shield. I loved how the pistol felt in my hand so I went ahead and bought one. During my first range session, the pistol ran flawlessly, exhibiting substantially better accuracy than my previous M&P 9 full-size pistol (baffling).
Then . . . as I was running through the penultimate magazine, the Shield's front sight dot fell out. Was that an extremely minor issue? Yep. But, after my previous experience, I decided to not mess with the M&P platform anymore.
In sum, these are nothing more than mere anecdotes. I was open to giving the M&P series a try but was let down on both occasions (admittedly, the second issue was easy to remedy but it smacked of less-than-stellar craftsmanship/QC).
I haven't really been following to see if the 9mm accuracy issues have been remedied. But for those of you running M&Ps, whether they be stock or modified, I'm glad you were able to get yours running the way defensive pistols should.
I'm a Glock guy, have been since 1989. That said, I have 3 M&P9s, 2 that I paid $250 for and the other I got in trade-$350 into the trade. That's the only reason I have M&P9s. Otherwise I'd stick with my Glocks. The M&P45's a different story-they seem to be great guns.
S&W should transition the M&P series into a Glock-style trigger.
I'm a Glock guy, have been since 1989. That said, I have 3 M&P9s, 2 that I paid $250 for and the other I got in trade-$350 into the trade. That's the only reason I have M&P9s. Otherwise I'd stick with my Glocks. The M&P45's a different story-they seem to be great guns.
S&W should transition the M&P series into a Glock-style trigger.
If they did that, I, and many others wouldn't have gone to the M&P. S&W and Glock have tangled in the past also:
"The Glock vs. Smith & Wesson lawsuit is history. After nearly three years of legal posturing, S&W has agreed to a multimillion dollar settlement and a slight modification to the Sigma Series Pistols.
To no one's surprise, Glock sued Smith & Wesson in early 1994. claiming "tortious acts, including without limitations, patent infringement, federal unfair competition, common unfair competition and deceptive trade practices."
S&W returned the salvo with "We firmly believe the suit to be totally without merit and will act accordingly."
Glock also sent an ultimatum to its dealers, giving them 15 days to decide on which to ca,y, the Glock or the Sigma. "If your decision is to continue to distribute Smith & Wesson products, your contractual relationship with Glock Inc. will be terminated," read the message.
In the end, Smith and Wesson agreed to "remove the surface located below the sear in the Sigma Series Pistols, which Glock contends is a positive guide means, and Glock has agreed that such a modification would resolve the patent infringement claim."
While no one in an official position is willing to say how much S&W will pay Glock, informed sources put the figure at between $5 and $8 million.
domestique
02-24-16, 15:12
Maybe I was spoiled, but my first M&P was a FS 9mm that Grant at G&R set up for me with new sights, Apex kit and polish job. It has always shot like a laser and would have been within $50.00 of a Glock (would have replaced the PLASTIC sights).
A Glock is not ready to go out of the box (for defensive use). The sights need replaced, and most people stipple and grind the grip angle/finger grooves to make it more comfortable... For being touted as the "best stock pistol ever", I personally never understood why people could spend 1k+ on Glock mods (Salient arms barrel, reshaping the grip for a better natural POA, slide milling (for cosmetics), shiny gold barrel tx etc. I have nothing against Glocks, and have a nice G20sf that I use in the backcountry.... but that needed new sights and barrel (to support the chamber better). For me, Glocks do not point naturally, and impact differently then all my other pistols. I wouldn't lose sleep over being forced to use a G17, G19.... but for ME, it isn't my first choice.
IMHO, a HK VP9 LE ($650 for 3 mags and night sights) is the best over the counter defensive pistol for the masses. The trigger can be left alone, the grips allow for a multitude of positions, it's fully ambidextrous, has faster reloads, and it's roughly the same size of the legendary G19 for ccw purposes.
OP, all the big name brands will get the job done. I would buy what feels the best, and is the most natural for you to shoot. That may be Glock, M&P, Walther, Sig, HK etc... all fine choices.
friendlyfireisnt
02-24-16, 21:36
In my experience the M&P is GTG. I like the P2000/VP9 a tad better in the accuracy dept, but the M&P has the best laser grips option of any plastic gun so the M&P wins. It is the best all-around plastic gun option IMHO.
That's the primary reason why I still have a M&P9 as my main HD pistol. I love the CT grips. I prefer the G19, the M&P Shield and the P-07 for carry pistols. But for a full size, home defense pistol, the M&P is a fantastic choice.
Sounds like its about time to cut your losses and dump the M&P for a G17/19 or even 34. Your Glock will be g2g right out of the box.
Way too many issues with the M&P's, Glock's are far from perfect but seem to have a much better track record overall.
teutonicpolymer
02-25-16, 07:18
I'd dump the m&p and go for a Sig p320 or Walther ppq
Glocks are fine too but the triggers are subpar and the ergonomics are bad
KalashniKEV
02-25-16, 10:27
A Glock is not ready to go out of the box (for defensive use). The sights need replaced, and most people stipple and grind the grip angle/finger grooves to make it more comfortable...
1) A Glock with factory night sights is 100% GTG out of the box. In fact, I prefer the meprolights that come as factory standard on Glocks and Sigs to all others. I do agree that the plastic sights are merely temporary sights though.
2) No... most people do not stipple and grind the grip angle/finger grooves. In fact, that's something that only cornballer types do. (sorry, it's the truth)
I have a question for the M&P advocates too- do you guys also love DPMS?
There exist, in the marketplace, ARs that are unacceptable out of the box- and those rifles are worthy of our contempt. Arguably, you could re-barrel them and replace the internals and have an acceptable (though more expensive) rifle that can hang with the rest of the pack.
Is not M&P also worthy of the same treatment?
http://www.wargamehk.com/images/sw40c.jpg
IMHO, a HK VP9 LE ($650 for 3 mags and night sights) is the best over the counter defensive pistol for the masses. The trigger can be left alone, the grips allow for a multitude of positions, it's fully ambidextrous, has faster reloads, and it's roughly the same size of the legendary G19 for ccw purposes.
VP9 is quite a bit larger than the 19 and even a bit bigger than the 17 in the grip AFAIK.
...
The m&ps I've shot were acceptable out of the box. To be honest, I think there is/was an issue with 9mm barrels, well documented by some. The triggers may be difficult to shoot well. However, I believe some people just couldn't shoot them and blamed the gun, similar to how many people used to claim glocks were innacurate and peg the sight to the right.
The mp trigger can be difficult, but it's not unservicable, imo.
Neither glock, nor mp is a gun for everyone. If you shoot it well, good. If not, try something else.
I have a question for the M&P advocates too- do you guys also love DPMS?
There exist, in the marketplace, ARs that are unacceptable out of the box- and those rifles are worthy of our contempt. Arguably, you could re-barrel them and replace the internals and have an acceptable (though more expensive) rifle that can hang with the rest of the pack.
Is not M&P also worthy of the same treatment?
In my experience, they usually don't need anything out of the box anymore. Stuff like getting rid of the weird hinged trigger body is nice but I'm sure someone could learn to love it.
I have a couple mid-2014 M&P9s (local shop had them on sale) and they shoot very well and the factory triggers were much, much improved over my older M&P9s. The triggers aren't Apex-good but they break cleanly and consistently.
I'm sure there's still some new-production duds out there but I haven't personally encountered them. On the flip side, my late 2013 Glock 17 was a brass-to-face machine before I replaced the extractor with an aftermarket one. But I'm not going to condemn Glocks across the board for one bad example.
I've also got a mid 2014 M&P that worked well for me. Night sights, 3 mags for $455 was hard to beat (I was cheap). It ran flawless and was certainly accurate enough within 25 yards.
It has since been replaced with a late 2015 Glock 23 Gen 4. I struggled at first for a few reasons, but it took me significantly less time and ammo to learn the Glock than the M&P. The recoil is harsher, but I feel faster and it is no doubt more accurate. I haven't timed myself yet, but I won't go back to the M&P because I am more accurate with the Glock.
So for me, the Glock works better and IMO doesn't need stipple work or talon grips unlike the M&P.
KalashniKEV
02-25-16, 11:24
I've also got a mid 2014 M&P that worked well for me. Night sights, 3 mags for $455 was hard to beat (I was cheap). It ran flawless and was certainly accurate enough within 25 yards.
Maybe they got fixed in 2014 then.
Still, I consider M&P to be a bigger fiasco than the Sigma was, only because they were promoted to the public for years as a decent pistol when they were in fact junk.
Also, FNS-9 with night sights and 3 mags beats the balls off an M&P at $435.
;)
Put that $20 towards a good holster.
1)
I have a question for the M&P advocates too- do you guys also love DPMS?
You have jumped the shark here and comparing the M&P to DPMS is intellectually dishonest of you. Like Glock, vast majority of M&Ps are GTG out of the box. The vast majority of them, have nadda done to them and they don't need anything done to them to go boom when you pull the trigger and hit what you aimed at within the intent of their design and price point. The accuracy issues of the M&P was a single model (FS 9mm) and not a general issue of the platform, and that was not consistent to all FS 9mm. I had three of them with varying levels of mods, from stock (other than taking a Sharpie to black out the rear dots) to fully moded with Apex parts, etc. All were acceptable accuracy and very reliable. Just as we tend to tell people they should buy a stock 6920 and shoot the chit out of it before making any mods, people should and could apply that to their handguns.
Making better shooters of guns with mods is a preference not a need, unless it's a true POS and then no one should buy them.
Meanwhile, Glock has had major recalls, and made some serious **** ups that (typical of Glock) was blamed on "user error" vs the gun and they took forever to address it. For example, when Glock decided to make a .40, they guns often cracked (apparently) because Glock failed to beef up the chamber to handle it. One of the PDs I know well had cracked .40s Glock refused to replace telling them it was user error, ammo selection, etc. They dumped all their .40 Glocks and went with Sig at the time. You can find a ton of discussions on cracked .40 Glocks with minimal rnd counts shortly after it was introduced.
Glock quietly improved the chamber support of the Glock without any official recalls as far as I know. See:
http://www.thesixgunjournal.net/an-historical-view-of-chamber-support-or-lack-thereof-in-glock-40-caliber-pistols/
Not sure why those who like to say "just get a Glock" can't deal with the fact Glock has had it's fair share of issues (but seems far more likely to blame it on the user and far slower to address it...) and most importantly, they/we don't like the ergo, nor that crappy little trigger, nor the messed up POI (likely due to the ergos/grip angle) and that will not change I'd guess.
Finally, unlike Glock, S&W has been very responsive to feedback and addressing known issues with their new platform and each gen an improvement over the last gen, which Grant has outlined in a specific thread.
My view, Glocks have improved with recent gen in terms of things like ergo, etc, but are behind the curve now with other choices and were forced address it due to the emergence of M&P, HK, Walther, etc.
Might be time for mods to conclude this thread needs to have a fork stuck in it...
crusader377
02-25-16, 12:31
You have jumped the shark here and comparing the M&P to DPMS is intellectually dishonest of you. Like Glock, vast majority of M&Ps are GTG out of the box. The vast majority of them, have nadda done to them and they don't need anything done to them to go boom when you pull the trigger and hit what you aimed at within the intent of their design and price point. The accuracy issues of the M&P was a single model (FS 9mm) and not a general issue of the platform, and that was not consistent to all FS 9mm. I had three of them with varying levels of mods, from stock (other than taking a Sharpie to black out the rear dots) to fully moded with Apex parts, etc. All were acceptable accuracy and very reliable. Just as we tend to tell people they should buy a stock 6920 and shoot the chit out of it before making any mods, people should and could apply that to their handguns.
Making better shooters of guns with mods is a preference not a need, unless it's a true POS and then no one should buy them.
Meanwhile, Glock has had major recalls, and made some serious **** ups that (typical of Glock) was blamed on "user error" vs the gun and they took forever to address it. For example, when Glock decided to make a .40, they guns often cracked (apparently) because Glock failed to beef up the chamber to handle it. One of the PDs I know well had cracked .40s Glock refused to replace telling them it was user error, ammo selection, etc. They dumped all their .40 Glocks and went with Sig at the time. You can find a ton of discussions on cracked .40 Glocks with minimal rnd counts shortly after it was introduced.
Glock quietly improved the chamber support of the Glock without any official recalls as far as I know. See:
http://www.thesixgunjournal.net/an-historical-view-of-chamber-support-or-lack-thereof-in-glock-40-caliber-pistols/
Not sure why those who like to say "just get a Glock" can't deal with the fact Glock has had it's fair share of issues (but seems far more likely to blame it on the user and far slower to address it...) and most importantly, they/we don't like the ergo, nor that crappy little trigger, nor the messed up POI (likely due to the ergos/grip angle) and that will not change I'd guess.
Finally, unlike Glock, S&W has been very responsive to feedback and addressing known issues with their new platform and each gen an improvement over the last gen, which Grant has outlined in a specific thread.
My view, Glocks have improved with recent gen in terms of things like ergo, etc, but are behind the curve now with other choices and were forced address it due to the emergence of M&P, HK, Walther, etc.
Might be time for mods to conclude this thread needs to have a fork stuck in it...
I agree with pretty much everything in the post.
I also would like to add that I don't think the best advice to the OP is to simply buy a Glock. The OP's main problem with the M&P is accuracy and the trigger and although Glocks are good at many things, they have pretty marginal triggers and sights and are very average in the accuracy department.
If the OP is looking to stay with a striker fired pistol, and wants the best trigger and accuracy possible then he should look really hard at either a Walther PPQ or HK VP9 both pistols on average have the best accuracy and triggers for an out of the box striker fire pistol.
If the OP wants to also consider hammer fired guns than perhaps a CZ P07 or a CZ75 based pistol, classic Sig P22X series, or Beretta 92 will all give the OP a very accurate pistol that he is looking for.
KalashniKEV
02-25-16, 13:04
You have jumped the shark here and comparing the M&P to DPMS is intellectually dishonest of you.
Obviously you missed the point, or maybe the brand of DPMS brought some strange element of emotion into it, but pick another AR brand... say, Bushmaster.
Bushmaster, DPMS, etc will feed and function out of the box, and you will hit what your aiming at too.
They also represent a poor value in the marketplace despite being the cheapest available name-brand option. (M1S or Radical is cheaper)
They also suffer from issues which need to be addressed, and luckily the aftermarket can support.
The analogy is near-perfect. I don't know why you would petition for thread closure unless you just don't want to answer the question.
Why is it OK to "make do" with a sub-par weapon out of the box or "bring it up to speed" with pricey aftermarket upgrades when it comes to the M&P and not the AR platform?
Finally, unlike Glock, S&W has been very responsive to feedback and addressing known issues...
They should have recalled their guns. They didn't.
M&P is the last car on the fail train that started with Sigma.
There are too many other options in the same price range, that are superior in every way, to give M&P any attention at this point. It doesn't matter if they finally got to the bottom of their list of problems and deficiencies. The consumer has moved on.
domestique
02-25-16, 14:19
They should have recalled their guns. They didn't.
I have a question for the M&P advocates too- do you guys also love DPMS?
Also, FNS-9 with night sights and 3 mags beats the balls off an M&P at $435.
Like the Glock 40's, and their inability to run with attached weapon lights? :p
Comparing M&P to DPMS would be the same as me calling Glock: Walmart (undercut all the competition "police contracts", until there is a huge industry following... wouldn't call myself a M&P fanboy. I am a firm believer in the HK LEM system, and having a hammer for AIWB carry.
-FNS?, Maybe the 9mm is better, but I couldn't stand my 45 tactical. The magazines never dropped freely (due to spongy frame), and the egos felt like a Glock (which isn't my first choice).
KalashniKEV
02-25-16, 15:21
The magazines never dropped freely (due to spongy frame), and the egos felt like a Glock (which isn't my first choice).
Hmm... that's weird. I don't recall what the 45 felt like, but the 9 has the best mag change experience in the game, IMO.
They nailed it on button height, placement, lockup, etc...
Anyway, DPMS thing aside, and even if we choose to selectively forget the days when Bushmaster was not a dirty word, there is a simple answer to the OP's question:
So my struggle is I really want to like the M&P, but I'm having a hard time with dropping another $300 or so into a $500 pistol. What are your thoughts? Should I "pull the trigger" on the additional parts or just go another direction.
No. Absolutely not. Go in another direction.
The mp doesn't have reliability issues and they dont break after high round counts. They aren't made with flawed materials or crappy qc.
One model didn't have proper fit in the slide/barrel for a period, and accuracy was poor.
Glocks threw brass in your face, so why buy one? Right?
Beretta slides used to fly in your face, so why buy them?
The mp doesn't have reliability issues and they dont break after high round counts. They aren't made with flawed materials or crappy qc.
One model didn't have proper fit in the slide/barrel for a period, and accuracy was poor.
Glocks threw brass in your face, so why buy one? Right?
Beretta slides used to fly in your face, so why buy them?
And, It it was not all of them from that single model, yet no matter how many times it's pointed out it was a single model within a line up and not all of them within that line, It's become all M&Ps ever made for all time "are not accurate." Frankly, the chit is getting old.
At approx same output of $, I'll take a VP9 vs M&P with all the mods a this point, but there was no VP9 when I and many others started with M&P, and the M&P has gotten better since due to feedback, etc.
What are the performance center M&Ps like? I have no experience with them. If S&W wanted to make something more in line with the accuracy etc of a VP9, I'd expect the performance center guns might be closer to that, but then you'd be paying in line with VP9 or other more "refined" pistol prices.
I don't think I mentioned I went to the M&P from a 1911, due to the ergos, thumb safety, increased capacity, etc. I'm not comparing the M&P, Glock, or any other polymer pistol to the 1911, because there is no comparison.
I've seen posts that have said their M&P is "accurate enough" at whatever distance. I don't think that "accurate enough" is acceptable when/if a critical shot needs to be made, whether you are LE, MIL, or civilian. I am not saying that the critical shot can't be made with the M&P, it's just that I'll have to spend the money in order to get the accuracy and trigger I desire. Can it be made with a factory Glock, VP9, or other pistol? Maybe, maybe not. And I know most of it depends on the shooters ability and confidence to make the shot regardless of platform. Would you agree part of the shooters confidence is in the platform? It's just the inconsistency with accuracy of the M&P, the shooters confidence may not be as great. Like most I think the hinged trigger on the M&P is a bad design and unless you polish or get Apex trigger parts, the factory trigger is not so great. They've improved with the reset, but not much else. The barrel twist rate was improved, but is that the real issue. It seems there has to be something else, i.e., barrel lockup. That's something S&W has not improved on, unless you send your pistol to the Performance Center (which = more money).
Now, I know folks upgrade pistols simply because they just want to and others do so out of necessity. Even on my TRP, I replaced the full-length guide rod with a GI and replaced the rear sight with a 10-8 black sight, because I wanted to. On my Glock 19 the sights were replaced, because I wanted to and because it was necessary. However, reading through many posts to this thread and others over time, it seems most are upgrading the M&P out of necessity. And most of the time it's more than one part, (barrels, triggers and internals, and sometimes sights). These are usually the more expensive parts to replace. Just speaking specifically of the Glock, in general the primary complaint seems to be the plastic factory sights. I think WillBrink is correct that if S&W made all M&Ps at Performance Center quality we'd be paying closer to what a VP9 costs. I think most of us who want an M&P would pay for a "refined" M&P out of the box. If you go back and look through topics just on M4C, I think we will find there are more issues with factory M&Ps than with any other factory polymer pistol.
I don't think I mentioned I went to the M&P from a 1911, due to the ergos, thumb safety, increased capacity, etc. I'm not comparing the M&P, Glock, or any other polymer pistol to the 1911, because there is no comparison.
I've seen posts that have said their M&P is "accurate enough" at whatever distance. I don't think that "accurate enough" is acceptable when/if a critical shot needs to be made, whether you are LE, MIL, or civilian. I am not saying that the critical shot can't be made with the M&P, it's just that I'll have to spend the money in order to get the accuracy and trigger I desire. Can it be made with a factory Glock, VP9, or other pistol? Maybe, maybe not. And I know most of it depends on the shooters ability and confidence to make the shot regardless of platform. Would you agree part of the shooters confidence is in the platform? It's just the inconsistency with accuracy of the M&P, the shooters confidence may not be as great. Like most I think the hinged trigger on the M&P is a bad design and unless you polish or get Apex trigger parts, the factory trigger is not so great. They've improved with the reset, but not much else. The barrel twist rate was improved, but is that the real issue. It seems there has to be something else, i.e., barrel lockup. That's something S&W has not improved on, unless you send your pistol to the Performance Center (which = more money).
Now, I know folks upgrade pistols simply because they just want to and others do so out of necessity. Even on my TRP, I replaced the full-length guide rod with a GI and replaced the rear sight with a 10-8 black sight, because I wanted to. On my Glock 19 the sights were replaced, because I wanted to and because it was necessary. However, reading through many posts to this thread and others over time, it seems most are upgrading the M&P out of necessity. And most of the time it's more than one part, (barrels, triggers and internals, and sometimes sights). These are usually the more expensive parts to replace. Just speaking specifically of the Glock, in general the primary complaint seems to be the plastic factory sights. I think WillBrink is correct that if S&W made all M&Ps at Performance Center quality we'd be paying closer to what a VP9 costs. I think most of us who want an M&P would pay for a "refined" M&P out of the box. If you go back and look through topics just on M4C, I think we will find there are more issues with factory M&Ps than with any other factory polymer pistol.
Again: The inconsistency of the M&P was with one model and one only, the FS 9mm, and it was not an issue with all of them. My 3 FS 9mm were acceptable accuracy and seemed no worse/better than comparable pistols. None were, nor ever expected to be, as accurate as the custom built 1911s I transferred from at the time. My .40 compact was surprisingly accurate, as was the FS .45's I shot. There's no perfect pistol made yet, and some have dumped their VP9 due to the location of the slide stop, which is very easy to hit, and it's been an issue for me too. Some dropped them after that vid that suggested they are not tolerant of being dropped in mud, et compared to other pistols. For me, not a deal breaker to get rid of the VP9. Your mileage may vary.
The M&P is a robust reliable - if somewhat unrefined without mods - pistol that's an excellent choice for the $$, but there's now better if you're willing to spend the additional $$. Me, I sort of think of M&P as the AK of polymer pistols with similar pros/cons if that makes sense. Maybe Glock is even more so, but I, like many others, the ergos, trigger, and sites just don't = happiness.
I don't see it as any more complicated then that.
"Accurate enough" needs to be quantified. Is a heads hot at 25yds accurate enough? Not everyone has the same requirements, but each person has to quantify it. Everyone has an "Accurate enough", regardless of if it's 5" or .5" at a given range.
You are assuming money needs spent. If you can't shoot accurately due to trigger, maybe you should dry fire more before deciding you need a new trigger.
I should've clarified, I'm speaking specifically of the FS M&P9. No it was not an issue with all of them, but it is with many of them, including the newer models.
"Accurate enough" needs to be quantified. Is a heads hot at 25yds accurate enough? Not everyone has the same requirements, but each person has to quantify it. Everyone has an "Accurate enough", regardless of if it's 5" or .5" at a given range.
I agree each person has to quantify their own accurate enough. The main issue I have is with the factory M&P9 inconsistency. Should I or even should I have to dump an additional $350 bucks into a pistol to have consistent accuracy? This is the issue I'm having....
Me, I sort of think of M&P as the AK of polymer pistols with similar pros/cons if that makes sense.
Yep...good comparison.
Inkslinger
02-26-16, 12:38
I should've clarified, I'm speaking specifically of the FS M&P9. No it was not an issue with all of them, but it is with many of them, including the newer models.
OP, maybe I missed it, but what kind of accuracy are you getting from this pistol? If it's completely terrible, have you contacted S&W? I'm on the end of the spectrum that is perfectly satisfied with the accuracy of my M&P. It is more accurate then I am. If I do my part I can make 1 ragged hole from the 10y and in. I can also hit reduced size steel silhouettes at 100 pretty consistently. If I go fast I'm very happy if I can keep everything within the 8 ring of a B8, which is a result of my trigger control, not the guns accuracy. So if you're putting shotgun patterns on paper, I would go back to S&W before I spent money on a better barrel.
"Accurate enough" needs to be quantified. Is a heads hot at 25yds accurate enough? Not everyone has the same requirements, but each person has to quantify it. Everyone has an "Accurate enough", regardless of if it's 5" or .5" at a given range.
You are assuming money needs spent. If you can't shoot accurately due to trigger, maybe you should dry fire more before deciding you need a new trigger.
Good points. Term I used was "acceptable accuracy" which may differ from "good enough." What's considered acceptable may not be "good enough" some some. Old thread with good info:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?113866-Define-an-Accurate-Pistol
I agree that the M& P doesn't necessarily need too many upgrades. The apex trigger is a must once you've shot with one. I've poured a good bit of money into my full size 9 including slide milling and barsto barrel. It's a pretty sweet pistol but it's still an M&P. If I had to do all over I again I don't know that I would
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38009
38010
38011
38012
Top two are M&P one at 10 yds the other at 15.
Bottom two are Glock 19.
The one at 10 yds with the M&P on the top left was me. But other than that....
I should have clarified, my accuracy requirements are basically torso shots at 25 yards (about 8-10 inches groups). That is the best I could do off hand. I have a long way to go in the firearms training/education, but I feel past that if I need to make headshots, my long gun should be out
ETA
I should mention that I am about 2/3 that right now with the Glock 23 and that if I could do my firearms purchases over I'd have gone Glock from the start. So I'd recommend that over M&P. I'm not pouring a cent into mine and I will dedicate time and money into sights and .40
Inkslinger
02-26-16, 15:14
38009
38010
38011
38012
The one at 10 yds with the M&P on the top left was me. But other than that....
I don't know, two show some consistency, two look erratic. If this is at speed, it could be worse. If this is slow fire, it could be the gun, you, or a combination of both. Like I said, I would go through S&W before I spent money on a barrel.
The 10 yard strings were shot at speed. 15 yard strings were slow.
Good points. Term I used was "acceptable accuracy" which may differ from "good enough." What's considered acceptable may not be "good enough" some some. Old thread with good info:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?113866-Define-an-Accurate-Pistol
I have to agree. Some people can exploit the accuracy of a pistol and some have lesser standards. I want a defensive pistol to shoot 3" at 25 yards with good ammunition. Anything over 4" with a full size pistol is unacceptable in my opinion. A compact pistol should be able to shoot 4" and definitely less than 5" at 25 yards.
Offhand accuracy with my Glock 22 and decent ammunition is under 3-1/2" at 25 yards. My Glock 17 shoots better at 25 yards with Federal 124g HST.
If you have to replace anything other than sights and trigger parts on a new handgun to make it shoot reasonably well, I would buy a different handgun.
When I buy another M&P pistol, I'll get it from Grant and request options like polishing trigger internals and swapping out oem parts with certain Apex stuff. This way I'm paying him a reasonable fee to screen for and fix common issues that may or may not be present.
On his recommendation in his posts, I bought a 9mm Shield from my lgs and love it.
About the M&P line, we need to remember that the compact 9mm versions shoot really well and that .40 shooters have fewer complaints than 9mm shooters regardless of version.
I regret that Smith is losing market share. I hope that Ruger's new pistol will sell to l.e. and be trouble free.
The 10 yard strings were shot at speed. 15 yard strings were slow.
I would put money into ammo before buying anything other than sights, based on your groups. And do a lot of dry fire practice. What size are the 15yd groups?
Mp issues don't really show inside 20yrds from what people have posted here, and it's generally vertical stringing.
It looks like you may be flinching more with the mp.
FS Sig P 320 9mm first range session
Last 6 rounds at 25 yards slow fire.
First 5 rounds are 1 1/2" Center to Center ..6 round makes it 2 3/4"
38019
M&P 45 what kind of groups at 25 yards with good Ammo off a rest .. Take out the Human factor ?
Here's my M&P experience.
When the Glock 42 was announced and then the shield without a thumb safety was announced (or vice versa), I went out and bought a shield. I loved it (eh), and wanted to switch to full on M&P for consistency. I loved the way the full size and compact felt in my hand and didn't have any initial issues with the trigger/barrel/accuracy. On the range, when I would slow down and really focus on my fundamentals, I could hit point of aim every time. Once I started picking up the tempo even a little, I started pushing left and I was never quite able to overcome it. I personally evaluated my shooting and determined it was the trigger break that was causing the last second push.
***I*** am not a personal believer in modifying the trigger setup on a carry gun, so that was not an option for me. I gave the M&P a few thousand rounds to see if I could correct this issue either through use polishing or my improving my skill, and I was not. I put them back in the safe, pulled my locks back out, and found I was right back where I needed to be on increased tempo fire. I started selling off my M&Ps and said "that's it, I'm sticking with glock for good this time. If I were in your shoes, and I would, I'd just dump the gun. I hate to be "that guy" but I shouldn't need to spend additional money on a weapon in order to get it to do what it should have done from the start.
gunrunner505
02-27-16, 11:43
You have jumped the shark here and comparing the M&P to DPMS is intellectually dishonest of you. Like Glock, vast majority of M&Ps are GTG out of the box. The vast majority of them, have nadda done to them and they don't need anything done to them to go boom when you pull the trigger and hit what you aimed at within the intent of their design and price point. The accuracy issues of the M&P was a single model (FS 9mm) and not a general issue of the platform, and that was not consistent to all FS 9mm. I had three of them with varying levels of mods, from stock (other than taking a Sharpie to black out the rear dots) to fully moded with Apex parts, etc. All were acceptable accuracy and very reliable. Just as we tend to tell people they should buy a stock 6920 and shoot the chit out of it before making any mods, people should and could apply that to their handguns.
Making better shooters of guns with mods is a preference not a need, unless it's a true POS and then no one should buy them.
Meanwhile, Glock has had major recalls, and made some serious **** ups that (typical of Glock) was blamed on "user error" vs the gun and they took forever to address it. For example, when Glock decided to make a .40, they guns often cracked (apparently) because Glock failed to beef up the chamber to handle it. One of the PDs I know well had cracked .40s Glock refused to replace telling them it was user error, ammo selection, etc. They dumped all their .40 Glocks and went with Sig at the time. You can find a ton of discussions on cracked .40 Glocks with minimal rnd counts shortly after it was introduced.
Glock quietly improved the chamber support of the Glock without any official recalls as far as I know. See:
http://www.thesixgunjournal.net/an-historical-view-of-chamber-support-or-lack-thereof-in-glock-40-caliber-pistols/
Not sure why those who like to say "just get a Glock" can't deal with the fact Glock has had it's fair share of issues (but seems far more likely to blame it on the user and far slower to address it...) and most importantly, they/we don't like the ergo, nor that crappy little trigger, nor the messed up POI (likely due to the ergos/grip angle) and that will not change I'd guess.
Finally, unlike Glock, S&W has been very responsive to feedback and addressing known issues with their new platform and each gen an improvement over the last gen, which Grant has outlined in a specific thread.
My view, Glocks have improved with recent gen in terms of things like ergo, etc, but are behind the curve now with other choices and were forced address it due to the emergence of M&P, HK, Walther, etc.
Might be time for mods to conclude this thread needs to have a fork stuck in it...
Everything here is spot on.
Glock is not the answer for everything and they are far from "perfection".
My M&P full size 40 is box stock, runs perfectly, is very accurate and the sights and trigger are both adequate.
With replacement sights, triggers, minus connectors, slide releases, mag releases, barrels, grip reduction and reconfiguring, don't kid yourself, the aftermarket for Glock is every bit as prevalent as any other gun.
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Everything here is spot on.
Glock is not the answer for everything and they are far from "perfection".
My M&P full size 40 is box stock, runs perfectly, is very accurate and the sights and trigger are both adequate.
With replacement sights, triggers, minus connectors, slide releases, mag releases, barrels, grip reduction and reconfiguring, don't kid yourself, the aftermarket for Glock is every bit as prevalent as any other gun.
There's no arguing with Glock fan boys. :jester:
Here's my M&P experience.
When the Glock 42 was announced and then the shield without a thumb safety was announced (or vice versa), I went out and bought a shield. I loved it (eh), and wanted to switch to full on M&P for consistency. I loved the way the full size and compact felt in my hand and didn't have any initial issues with the trigger/barrel/accuracy. On the range, when I would slow down and really focus on my fundamentals, I could hit point of aim every time. Once I started picking up the tempo even a little, I started pushing left and I was never quite able to overcome it. I personally evaluated my shooting and determined it was the trigger break that was causing the last second push.
***I*** am not a personal believer in modifying the trigger setup on a carry gun, so that was not an option for me. I gave the M&P a few thousand rounds to see if I could correct this issue either through use polishing or my improving my skill, and I was not. I put them back in the safe, pulled my locks back out, and found I was right back where I needed to be on increased tempo fire. I started selling off my M&Ps and said "that's it, I'm sticking with glock for good this time. If I were in your shoes, and I would, I'd just dump the gun. I hate to be "that guy" but I shouldn't need to spend additional money on a weapon in order to get it to do what it should have done from the start.
But it's not the gun, it's your interface with it. Just because YOU can't shoot one well does not mean it sucks. Some people cannot shoot glocks well.
But it's not the gun, it's your interface with it. Just because YOU can't shoot one well does not mean it sucks. Some people cannot shoot glocks well.
Here's 50 yards with 2012 date, so still earlier gen and had he slowed down to say my rate of fire above, I suspect he'd have made higher hit % easily.
Watch HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b54ep_Bl6zo&ebc=ANyPxKr2vJ6lLwKa2kV8n2GLDtpZzSzDhsY77m7na4iErYBWUvUv-8-TZrwYVb7PthfQut0EoTmSF3whhu1AzNXWikJ8gxCU8Q)
It's not formal quantified testing to be sure, but does suggest some of us found FS 9mm M&Ps that were "combat accurate" or better as they they.
gunrunner505
02-27-16, 18:08
There's no arguing with Glock fan boys. :jester:
Nope. Not even worth the effort.
If Glock works for you, go nuts bro. It is not he end all be all pistol. As the M&P is not the end all be all. Neither in the 1911 or the whatever. My gun works for me so that's all that matters in my world.
I've personally seen more issues with Glock than other platforms but that doesn't mean the whole platform is shit. The Glockenspiels shine a bat signal on any shortcoming on other platforms, real or imagined, and beat it to death while ignoring anything that's not be up to speed with their super gun.
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Thanks MikeM.
Post # 48 shows the accuracy potential of the M&P.
If I didn't have so much time and equipment invested in Glocks, I would definitely look at a M&P 9mm after reading your post.
Good show.
Guys I'm not saying the whole line is crap, 'cause it's not. I've shot the M&P40 and 45 and don't have these issues. Ive shot a Shield 9 and got no issues. I'm talking specifically of the FS M&P9 and not comparing it to any other M&P. I'm simply saying the issues with the M&P9 has been inconsistent accuracy and whether or not to move on from it or put money into it to get it where I want.
Thanks MikeM.
Post # 48 shows the accuracy potential of the M&P.
If I didn't have so much time and equipment invested in Glocks, I would definitely look at a M&P 9mm after reading your post.
Good show.
The potential is there and that's why I'm holding on to the last shred of hope...
But it's not the gun, it's your interface with it. Just because YOU can't shoot one well does not mean it sucks. Some people cannot shoot glocks well.
I meant to accentuate the "I" when speaking about my personal experience in shooting my m&p pistols, because I agree that my experience was mine and may not be applicable to others. With that said, my experience is not unique and the OP seems to be having accuracy issue as well.
I would also add that I spent a few thousand rounds trying to correct these issues and consider myself to be an above average shooter, however I was unable to attain the accuracy at fighting speed that I desired.
Inkslinger
02-27-16, 20:38
Guys I'm not saying the whole line is crap, 'cause it's not. I've shot the M&P40 and 45 and don't have these issues. Ive shot a Shield 9 and got no issues. I'm talking specifically of the FS M&P9 and not comparing it to any other M&P. I'm simply saying the issues with the M&P9 has been inconsistent accuracy and whether or not to move on from it or put money into it to get it where I want.
Did you contact S&W? Customer service exists for a reason. If your gun has an issue I'm pretty sure they will address it.
Primus Pilum
02-27-16, 20:47
VP9 is quite a bit larger than the 19 and even a bit bigger than the 17 in the grip AFAIK.
No its not, not even close.... The VP9 CCW better than a G19.. Own multiples of both, and carry both.
Primus Pilum
02-27-16, 20:49
You have jumped the shark here and comparing the M&P to DPMS is intellectually dishonest of you. Like Glock, vast majority of M&Ps are GTG out of the box. The vast majority of them, have nadda done to them and they don't need anything done to them to go boom when you pull the trigger and hit what you aimed at within the intent of their design and price point. The accuracy issues of the M&P was a single model (FS 9mm) and not a general issue of the platform, and that was not consistent to all FS 9mm. I had three of them with varying levels of mods, from stock (other than taking a Sharpie to black out the rear dots) to fully moded with Apex parts, etc. All were acceptable accuracy and very reliable. Just as we tend to tell people they should buy a stock 6920 and shoot the chit out of it before making any mods, people should and could apply that to their handguns.
Making better shooters of guns with mods is a preference not a need, unless it's a true POS and then no one should buy them.
Meanwhile, Glock has had major recalls, and made some serious **** ups that (typical of Glock) was blamed on "user error" vs the gun and they took forever to address it. For example, when Glock decided to make a .40, they guns often cracked (apparently) because Glock failed to beef up the chamber to handle it. One of the PDs I know well had cracked .40s Glock refused to replace telling them it was user error, ammo selection, etc. They dumped all their .40 Glocks and went with Sig at the time. You can find a ton of discussions on cracked .40 Glocks with minimal rnd counts shortly after it was introduced.
Glock quietly improved the chamber support of the Glock without any official recalls as far as I know. See:
http://www.thesixgunjournal.net/an-historical-view-of-chamber-support-or-lack-thereof-in-glock-40-caliber-pistols/
Not sure why those who like to say "just get a Glock" can't deal with the fact Glock has had it's fair share of issues (but seems far more likely to blame it on the user and far slower to address it...) and most importantly, they/we don't like the ergo, nor that crappy little trigger, nor the messed up POI (likely due to the ergos/grip angle) and that will not change I'd guess.
Finally, unlike Glock, S&W has been very responsive to feedback and addressing known issues with their new platform and each gen an improvement over the last gen, which Grant has outlined in a specific thread.
My view, Glocks have improved with recent gen in terms of things like ergo, etc, but are behind the curve now with other choices and were forced address it due to the emergence of M&P, HK, Walther, etc.
Might be time for mods to conclude this thread needs to have a fork stuck in it...
Except for the whole having to replace all the internals and more often then not, needing to have a new fitted barrel put in unless you like shotgun patterns.
There is a reason they are getting dumped all over the US and LE agencies are going back to glock and sig (which is a whole nother issue for another thread).
Primus Pilum
02-27-16, 20:52
The mp doesn't have reliability issues and they dont break after high round counts. They aren't made with flawed materials or crappy qc.
One model didn't have proper fit in the slide/barrel for a period, and accuracy was poor.
Glocks threw brass in your face, so why buy one? Right?
Beretta slides used to fly in your face, so why buy them?
No they didn't and you are flat out lying trying to puff up your point.
A FEW early Berettas were trashed/thrashed by NSW using +P+ mp5 ammo and cracked. Beretta beefed up the slide and redesigned the gun slightly, but ANY gun will fail when you lots and lots of +p+ rounds in a short period of time through it..
Damn. There's a whole lot of bunched up panties in here. My M&P can outshoot me. I only put Apex internals in because I wanted a really good trigger, and it's way better than any other pistol trigger I've felt minus the gold standard 1911. The thing I dislike most about the M&P is the texture. It's pretty weak and I have a hard time keeping my hands in place. I need to stipple it, but that's easy.
OP, I'm a by confused on your pricing. A fully upgraded M&P costs the same as a G17?
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No they didn't and you are flat out lying trying to puff up your point.
Specify what I am lying about.
What didnt? Did glocks not throw brass to the face or did Beretta redisign the gun for something that didn't happen?
OP, I'm a by confused on your pricing. A fully upgraded M&P costs the same as a G17?
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No sir. I said that all the upgrades would cost nearly as much as a blue label G17. I'm sure I could get a couple of G17/19 for the price of an M&P plus upgrades.
Except for the whole having to replace all the internals and more often then not, needing to have a new fitted barrel put in unless you like shotgun patterns.
There is a reason they are getting dumped all over the US and LE agencies are going back to glock and sig (which is a whole nother issue for another thread).
Expect for the whole ignoring what I said and repeating nonsense fully covered in my post you ignored. You've added nothing to this thread.
There's no arguing with Glock fan boys. :jester:
You of course recognize that your posting history tends to lean towards an ideation of an "m&p fanboy" who is similarly unable to objectively discuss the criticisms of your favorite weapon family..
You of course recognize that your posting history tends to lean towards an ideation of an "m&p fanboy" who is similarly unable to objectively discuss the criticisms of your favorite weapon family..
No, I don't recognize that nor I suspect would other long term posters here accuse me of such things knowing the bulk of my posting history. I currently favor the VP9 as primary and recommended to the OP that rather than go M&P + mods he outlined, look at other pistols for that similar $$ as M&P + mods no longer the obvious choice. Yup, real M&P fan boy I am...
That I might defend the M&P against poorly supported info, is far from "fan boy" status. I'd do the same with Glock, even though I'm not a big fan. LOL worth to me is I used to get called a 1911 fanboy because I defended the 1911 as a viable combat handgun against those "just get a Glock" comments
Finally, I'm not an expert on combat handguns and don't play one on TV. I will say, my opinions seem in line with the SME's here as well as other sources I tend to follow to form my own opinions in addition to personal experiences.
Personal experiences with X gun does not make one an SME, and I'm no different in that respect. Hence, you are free to ignore my opinions/advice on the topic.
No its not, not even close.... The VP9 CCW better than a G19.. Own multiples of both, and carry both.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160228/4f4a1fc4a670ef30d77c5ec2b33145c2.jpg
How it ccws and how big it is are two different things
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OK, just got on Brownells to see what I'd have to spend on upgrades. This is my struggle. I mean for $60 more I can get a blue label Glock 17...an entire pistol ready to go...not just parts....
Apex Grade Barrel $182.58
Apex AEK Trigger $74.54
Apex DCAEK $77.99
Shipping $7.95
Total $343.06
Throw in 10-8 Sights as a bonus $45.90
New total with sights $388.96
Plus what I already paid for the M&P $499
Grand Total $887.96
I didn't even include the price of the extra mags with 10-8 floor plates....
Just buy a Sig 226 and be done then. I like my M&P9 FS with the DCAEK and G & R's shop polish job. Factory barrel and trigger.
I am able to buy at LEO/MIL prices so the pistol is starting cheaper. Don't want a Glock, someone else can take it. Don't wait on me.
No, I don't recognize that nor I suspect would other long term posters here accuse me of such things knowing the bulk of my posting history. I currently favor the VP9 as primary and recommended to the OP that rather than go M&P + mods he outlined, look at other pistols for that similar $$ as M&P + mods no longer the obvious choice. Yup, real M&P fan boy I am...
That I might defend the M&P against poorly supported info, is far from "fan boy" status. I'd do the same with Glock, even though I'm not a big fan. LOL worth to me is I used to get called a 1911 fanboy because I defended the 1911 as a viable combat handgun against those "just get a Glock" comments
Finally, I'm not an expert on combat handguns and don't play one on TV. I will say, my opinions seem in line with the SME's here as well as other sources I tend to follow to form my own opinions in addition to personal experiences.
Personal experiences with X gun does not make one an SME, and I'm no different in that respect. Hence, you are free to ignore my opinions/advice on the topic.
1911's, BHP, Sig's, M&P/Shield 9mm's and CZ's. My choice and I am sticking with it for now.
.
Apex Grade Barrel For The S&W M&P9: A Quick Look (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?181062-Apex-Grade-Barrel-For-The-S-amp-W-M-amp-P9-A-Quick-Look)
...
.
Apex Grade Barrel For The S&W M&P9: A Quick Look (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?181062-Apex-Grade-Barrel-For-The-S-amp-W-M-amp-P9-A-Quick-Look)
...
Thanks for posting this. Looking forward to seeing more of your eval of the barrel.
I have a question for the M&P advocates too- do you guys also love DPMS?
There exist, in the marketplace, ARs that are unacceptable out of the box- and those rifles are worthy of our contempt. Arguably, you could re-barrel them and replace the internals and have an acceptable (though more expensive) rifle that can hang with the rest of the pack.
Is not M&P also worthy of the same treatment?
All current M&Ps are good to go out of the box.
All current Glocks are NOT good to go out of the box, due to the sights.
So would that not apply to Glock more than M&Ps?
In reality, while departments might worry about the stock configuration of a pistol, many individual users will change sights, triggers, mag releases, stipple, and do whatever else to their firearms. The base reliability and accuracy of both M&P and Glock pistols are more or less on par. Just get whatever fits your hand better.
I'd spend an extra 400 bucks (or just do without) to avoid Glock.
I say go for it. I think the M&P hate is way overblown. I just bought a new production M&P9 and 9c and both have been fine. Both have accuracy equal to the G19 they replaced, and have been reliable over the 500 or so rounds I've put through them (although that's not saying much). I think a stock M&P9 with night sights is just as good to go as a stock G17 with night sights. If you get a crap one, send it back to S&W and they'll make it right.
Do I think the accuracy problems exist? Absolutely. I had a 2012 production M&P9 that was a shotgun... S&W replaced the slide and barrel, no questions asked, shipping on their dime, which fixed it. On the other hand, I had a 2013 production G19 gen 3 that was a brass to the face machine and had occasional FTE's. Glock refused to provide an rma, made me ship it on my own dime (which being a handgun is not cheap, it was about $40). They then told me they shot 100rnds through, and that it "met factory specs" and shipped it back. Don't get me wrong, I love glocks, but that's not how to win a customer's loyalty. I've been drifting towards M&P's since.
I'll echo other's advise to try the VP9 and P320 though. I found I sligtly prefer the M&P to the P320 (which I did not expect to happen...), but if there was a VP9K and VP9SK, I think I'd be going HK...
No they didn't and you are flat out lying trying to puff up your point.
Yes, they absolutely DID. This is a matter of public record and that the events genuinely occurred is utterly indisputable.
The fact that he didn't specify the causality you backfilled does NOT make him a liar. At worst, it rated a "well, yeah, but that's an incomplete picture," followed by the requisite modifying info.
It did NOT rate the punk move of calling somebody a liar from behind the comfortable anonymity of a screen-name.
That's the last time you'll be doing that, except under circumstances of verifiable falsehood.
35 years ago I had the occasion to be on a large state firearms range to observe some state and federal officers qualify with handguns. Many were shooting S&W, Browning, Walther, and Colt semi auto's. Throughout the day, these shooters had all sorts of malfunctions. Safety levers, sights, and sometimes magazines fell from their weapons. Stoppages were common. Today our issue type weapons are more reliable and trouble free than in earlier years. Glock, Smith, and Ruger(among others)handguns continue to evolve, and as consumers we are fortunate indeed. Among ourselves we can't agree on gun oil so it's no wonder that we have heated discussions of weapon selection.
donlapalma
02-29-16, 15:54
OP - there have been a lot of thoughts shared here. Are you sticking with the M&P and doing your desired upgrades?
richiecotite
03-01-16, 12:09
A lot of good points in this thread.
One thing I'm not sure has been mentioned ( might have been, I just got caught up last night) is initial cost. For us non-sworn, non GSSF folks a new gen 4 glock 17 runs about $540. A new m&p9 with the latest upgrades will run around $430. Not that it's a huge difference, but it is a difference.
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A lot of good points in this thread.
One thing I'm not sure has been mentioned ( might have been, I just got caught up last night) is initial cost. For us non-sworn, non GSSF folks a new gen 4 glock 17 runs about $540. A new m&p9 with the latest upgrades will run around $430. Not that it's a huge difference, but it is a difference.
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Where can we get this M&P9 with the latest upgrades for $430? What upgrades do you speak of?
OP - there have been a lot of thoughts shared here. Are you sticking with the M&P and doing your desired upgrades?
I still haven't decided quite yet...
Just be different and go with the even smaller crowd. CZ P09 ;)
That's one gun that will probably stop me from shooting my MP.
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Where can we get this M&P9 with the latest upgrades for $430? What upgrades do you speak of?
The latest upgrades for the M&P line include a trigger with a more pronounced reset as well as the "single or double dimple" barrels (not sure which is better tbh) that are reputed to have better lock up in battery. These changes began to roll out in 2014 if I recall correctly.
Sorry, also you can find M&P9 full size for $430 at any number of online gun retailers such as sportsman outdoor, G and R tactical, etc.
Just be different and go with the even smaller crowd. CZ P09 ;)
That's one gun that will probably stop me from shooting my MP.
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Or maybe an XD.....;)
Mine is a 2013 M&P that I got from Grant. It has the single dimple barrel as well as the pronounced reset. I seriously do not see what everyone's problem with the trigger or accuracy are. I have Hk, Custom CZ's, 1911's and this Mp. I do not feel that this pistol is outgunned by any of them. It isn't as accurate as my CZ's but that's understandable. I did have a MP with the mushy no reset trigger and it was crap but still shot fine. The trigger fix is a big plus.
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OK...so you mean a stock M&P. Not aftermarket upgrades.
Me? Yes stock from Grant I also forgot I have an XDm. I won't by another Xd.
Edit: well not stock. I have trijicon HD's and the grip is stippled.
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The latest upgrades for the M&P line include a trigger with a more pronounced reset as well as the "single or double dimple" barrels (not sure which is better tbh) that are reputed to have better lock up in battery. These changes began to roll out in 2014 if I recall correctly.
OK...so you mean a stock M&P. Not aftermarket upgrades.
Correct. S&W rolled out improvements to the line in the 2013-2014 time frame. M&Ps of the 2015 and 2016 vintage should have all of the latest and greatest bells and whistles.
richiecotite
03-01-16, 15:34
OK...so you mean a stock M&P. Not aftermarket upgrades.
Yes, all stock, not aftermarket. The rolling improvements include the H stamped trigger bar, slide stop assembly with the bump (that increases felt/heard reset), 2 dimpled barrel.
If you have a gun with these improvements which would include all 2015 and 2016 guns, most 2014, and 2013 guns made after october/november , then it should pretty much be gtg.
(If anything I posted is incorrect, please feel free to correct it)
Just be different and go with the even smaller crowd. CZ P09 ;)
That's one gun that will probably stop me from shooting my MP.
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I don't know. I moved from cz to mp, and my cz had a polished sao trigger.
Fwiw, I never understood the reset complaints. How does not feeling the reset affect your shooting?
Well I do like a form reset. I have gotten used to "riding" the reset when I shoot. When I can't feel when my trigger resets it cause me to come all the way off the trigger.
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Well I do like a form reset. I have gotten used to "riding" the reset when I shoot. When I can't feel when my trigger resets it cause me to come all the way off the trigger.
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You may find this useful.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?109016-Riding-the-Link-A-training-scar
Edited to add, I found through slow motion video that I come all the way off the trigger, but I dryfire practice smashing the trigger back, from in front of the trigger... just plowing through the full travel so it feels like a single stage anyways, haha.
Is it "correct"? I don't know, but my speed and accuracy improved together when I started that.
Interesting to say the least.
Well I do like a form reset. I have gotten used to "riding" the reset when I shoot. When I can't feel when my trigger resets it cause me to come all the way off the trigger.
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The reset on the new M&P's is much improved. It's not quite as hard a reset as a glock, but it's very noticable, nothing like the old M&P's.
Primus Pilum
03-03-16, 15:11
Yes, they absolutely DID. This is a matter of public record and that the events genuinely occurred is utterly indisputable.
The fact that he didn't specify the causality you backfilled does NOT make him a liar. At worst, it rated a "well, yeah, but that's an incomplete picture," followed by the requisite modifying info.
It did NOT rate the punk move of calling somebody a liar from behind the comfortable anonymity of a screen-name.
That's the last time you'll be doing that, except under circumstances of verifiable falsehood.
There is not a big difference between being completely disingenuous & lying.
If something is used incorrectly, and it fails then it is not the same thing as something being used properly (with correct pressure ammo,ect) and it failing. Run anything hard enough with enough overpressure rounds and there will be a catastrophic failure.
In a former life, I had access to some of those exact samples IE early trial guns for that program and the documentation that accompanied it. Both Beretta & the US gov agreed it was not a failure on Beretta and they redesigned the system to reduce the chance of that happening again, as dumb as the circumstance was in the first place. If it was, Beretta would have been found in breach of contract and action would have been taken to either cancel or mod to satisfy the gov.
S&W has been putting out defective guns from day one, with incremental modifications that are a day late and a dollar short. Not to mention numerous agencies have been dumping the M&P early into their lifecycle and going back to legacy platforms like the "brick" and Sig.
Hardy the same thing.
Being that I was unaware of the back story, no, it's not lying.
That said, when other guns break, do the slides hit your face? Honest question. I've heard of failures from many guns but slide to face only with beretta.
On a side note, you can correct someone without personally attacking them.
BattleRifle308
03-05-16, 23:34
I installed HD night sights and a full apex trigger in my shield. It runs flawlessly as always and I've cut target size in half while maintaining faster shooting. I absolutely love it.
Worth every cent. I highly encourage anyone to make the same upgrades.
The only thing I might do is add a magguts +1 spring and follower. But only if it keep its reliability. I will not sacrifice it. I've never had one single jam or malfunction.
The M&P series of guns are absolute work horses. And for the money, being American made. The grip angle is so comfortable for me. There isn't really any other option.
I love me a Sig but who's got the money for that lol
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