View Full Version : More SERPA Derp
A short video clip from a recent episode of Guns&Ammo TV where the hosts dismiss anyone who claims that the SERPA design is unsafe as "not being able to internalize keeping their finger straight and off if the trigger" or "don't understand the four safety rules".
Watch what happens when we slow down Pat Sweeney's draw from the SERPA with his Walther PPQ....
https://youtu.be/LXakcPB0evk
Since I posted up those two videos two days ago, they seem to have gone viral within the gun community: https://www.google.com/#q=patrick+sweeney+serpa+guns+%26+ammo
Here is the full SERPA segment where the two hosts talk about how great the SERPA is and dismiss anyone that believes the SERPA is an unsafe design....
https://youtu.be/LJ2Qg4xwHgg
This really is hilarious. What a crappy, crappy holster.
Mars attacks...
02-25-16, 02:13
BUT JAMES YEAGER SAYS DEY ARE O K NOW!?
I am thankful that by the time I decided to buy OWB holsters the SERPA was exposed for the huge piece of crap that it is.
Releasing retention via thumb lever (a la Safariland, G-CODE, etc.) is a far better option.
Check out this page: http://bearingarms.com/guns-ammo-editor-nearly-shoots-proving-serpa-holsters-suck/
Look at the comments justifying Serpa's because themselves or someone they know has not ND's with one. They completely ignore the SME's cautions with red herrings and anecdotal fallacies.
Watch what happens when we slow down Pat Sweeney's draw from the SERPA with his Walther PPQ....
What I can see is shooter placing his finger inside triggerguard a bit to early (however very popular in sport shooting, to cut on time). I do not know of holster that prevents shooter from putting his finger on the trigger to early, if he wish to do so and prevent from shooting oneself in the leg.
What I can see is shooter placing his finger inside triggerguard a bit to early (however very popular in sport shooting, to cut on time). I do not know of holster that prevents shooter from putting his finger on the trigger to early, if he wish to do so and prevent from shooting oneself in the leg.
But... The mechanism by which the pistol is released will have one doing exactly that during a fast draw. What about a HURRIED draw?
I'll pass.
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Add fear and stress to the draw and anything can happen.
teutonicpolymer
02-25-16, 07:15
The safariland als is such a better design that it's not even funny
GUNSLINGER733
02-25-16, 09:29
Every time i walk in a gun shop and see someone looking at a blackhawk I want to curse. They just look like sh!t. There are much nicer level 2 & 3 holsters available now.
obviously hasn't "internalized keeping your finger outside of the trigger guard" and hasn't learned the 4 rules... "one of those rules is keep your finger of the trigger."
It's sad to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ2Qg4xwHgg&t=1m12s then immediately https://youtu.be/LJ2Qg4xwHgg?t=2m27s
My department still issues these to plain clothes officers and detectives. Early on I had heard about the safety concerns but it was the only holster I had. There was a few times on the range while trying to go fast I felt my finger go inside the trigger guard way too soon. I ditched it as soon as I could. Luckily my dept is pretty cool about guys using their own holsters. I was actually just issued a new one and it went right in my plastic bin with all the other crap I no longer use. I have no idea why they dont issue ALS holsters.
Even at normal speed the two guys were draaaawwwing sooooo sloooooowwww that keeping your finger out trigger guard wouldn't be much of a problem. I wonder how it would go with some quicker drawing?
I've had the SERPA discussion with a few coworkers that teach basic pistol at a police academy. I cant stand the design. I believe it is an accident waiting to happen. These officers have been using them for a while and refuse to switch. Its odd how some develop an emotional attachment to their gear. Their belief is that the SERPA related NDs are training failures. I attempted to explain that it is more of an anatomy/ bio mechanical problem. I would have had a more productive conversation with an oak tree.
GUNSLINGER733
02-25-16, 13:50
LMAO Some people are as hard headed as a oak tree
jackblack73
02-25-16, 14:10
What I can see is shooter placing his finger inside triggerguard a bit to early (however very popular in sport shooting, to cut on time). I do not know of holster that prevents shooter from putting his finger on the trigger to early, if he wish to do so and prevent from shooting oneself in the leg.
It looks to me like his finger "rebounds" a little bit, indicating he wasn't intentionally putting his finger in the trigger early, but rather inadvertently due to the design of the holster.
I've had the SERPA discussion with a few coworkers that teach basic pistol at a police academy. I cant stand the design. I believe it is an accident waiting to happen. These officers have been using them for a while and refuse to switch. Its odd how some develop an emotional attachment to their gear. Their belief is that the SERPA related NDs are training failures. I attempted to explain that it is more of an anatomy/ bio mechanical problem. I would have had a more productive conversation with an oak tree.
I feel your pain. I've had the same discussions.
It looks to me like his finger "rebounds" a little bit, indicating he wasn't intentionally putting his finger in the trigger early, but rather inadvertently due to the design of the holster.
I see the same thing. There's still a lot of .mil users getting this holster issued to them, I'm sure that helps with the popularity of it, people thinking if it's good enough for them type thing. I've personally never seen anyone ND while using one, but I have seen that retention button or whatever it's called, get jammed up with mud and dirt, user wasn't able to get his M9 out until he was able to completely clean it out. To me it's something to be avoided and I try to steer people from it as much as I can.
titsonritz
02-25-16, 17:06
I just blows me away people still continue to use and defend this turd holster.
Mysteryman
02-25-16, 17:16
I've had the SERPA discussion with a few coworkers that teach basic pistol at a police academy. I cant stand the design. I believe it is an accident waiting to happen. These officers have been using them for a while and refuse to switch. Its odd how some develop an emotional attachment to their gear. Their belief is that the SERPA related NDs are training failures. I attempted to explain that it is more of an anatomy/ bio mechanical problem. I would have had a more productive conversation with an oak tree.
There is some truth to the issue being a training one. However, why use equipment that requires you to relearn or rather add steps to the draw that just aren't needed with other holsters? The use of a thumb break or any other level 2/3 retention system requires training, but failing to activate them results in a wedgie not shooting yourself life a SERPA.
The SERPA is a raging piece of sh*t that appeals to the uninformed and bean counters.
MM
controlledpairs2
02-25-16, 18:24
Some poor guy in my brigade shot himself in the thigh while using one of the drop leg versions
Admittedly, I had a couple of SERPAs. The Safariland ALS is just such a superior holster in every aspect. There is no comparison. I used to think people bought the SERPA because of cost but the ALS and the SERPA are in the same price range. SERPAs are very easy to find whereas you have to go to a police supply store or shop online to find them.
Springfield
02-26-16, 00:25
I don't understand the appeal of the Serpa either. It is not built nearly heavy enough for duty use but is too large (in my opinion) for concealed carry use compared to other options on the market. I use a good retention holster (Safariland) for duty use but prefer to carry off duty using holsters with no retention devices. My reasoning is, the weapon is concealed so I don't have to worry much about gun-grabs and I don't feel good about using multiple types of retention holsters with multiple types of weapons (keep it simple).
About the only places I see Serpa holsters on the street anymore is with a few member's of the open carry crowd trying hard to look cool.
I don't understand the training argument with the Serpa. Sure, you can probably train the issue away but why bother? There are better holsters out there that do the same thing without the risky design of the retention device. The time spent training how not to shoot yourself in the leg on the draw stroke could be better spent in other areas of shooting proficiency.
Serpa is made by blackhawk what do you expect
Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
But... The mechanism by which the pistol is released will have one doing exactly that during a fast draw. What about a HURRIED draw?
When I bought my first P30, just when they come out only holster on market for P30 was Serpa. They even had left handed version. That is because Serpa was bundled with P30 in German Border Guard contract, that P30 was designed for in first place.
Since then I still use same Serpa holster for hurried draws a lot. Those draws are on the clock, as this is mostly IDPA and 3Gun competition (for IPSC I use competition rig). I do not know about other model specific Serpa holsters, but in mine release button position my finger well away from trigger area. Actually when I draw my trigger finger is resting on pistol frame well above trigger. Even if I extend force on it, finger does not "slip" into triggerguard on it's own. Back when all anti-Serpa hate started I tested this several times. Like on presented video, shooter needs to move finger down from position needed to unlock holster, to place it on trigger. If someone does it too early and gets ND, then it is HIS/HER fault. I know, blaming this on holster can be way to keep face, but it's just that - placing blame for own fault. Difference with other holsters is just, that when there is no "button", there is no place to put blame on (then again probably gun manufacturers fault or something). If shooter follows firearms safety rules there will be no ND during draw, Serpa or no Serpa.
However, I believe those who point out that some external object can get caught into Serpa release button mechanism and prevent draw. This is legitimate drawback in this design and those who do lot of crawling etc. can have a problem with that. I use Serpa only for competition purposes, so it does not concern me.
Bottom line: there is myriad of holster much better than Serpa. That is for sure. But putting blame on holster for users fault is poor idea in long run. Someone who does not have control over trigger finger placement will keep to have NDs if he will believe problem lies outside of himself.
Averageman
02-26-16, 08:41
I cringe every time I see young Soldiers carrying these.
They don't train with their pistols enough as it is and they do more than a little bit of crawling through the dirt and add these two factors together and you have a tragedy waiting to happen.
I will not carry in a serpa that being said I own a few I use them for airsoft because they are cheap, they secure the pistol, and I can re holster one handed without looking. I am a firm believer that they should not be used for anything that speed is a necessary factor.
Did the SERPA come to market before Safariland's SLS?
I am curious if its success is owed to being first to market, to marketing, or simply to the astounding retardation of users and those in charge with purchasing decisions for agencies/departments.
Did the SERPA come to market before Safariland's SLS?
I am curious if its success is owed to being first to market, to marketing, or simply to the astounding retardation of users and those in charge with purchasing decisions for agencies/departments.
I don't know the respective release dates, but at least around here you can get junk Serpa and Uncle Mike's holsters at local gun shops and even Academy. You have to know what you want and be looking for quality, probably online, to find a Safariland or similar. That certainly increases the number of crap holsters out there.
Some other good ones:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuHWF1568U0&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOBEJvMZ_f4&feature=related
Admittedly these videos are a few years old and I don't know if the design has been changed at all to address this problem.
titsonritz
02-26-16, 18:41
It's a training issue. :sarcastic:
daddyusmaximus
02-26-16, 19:41
What I can see is shooter placing his finger inside triggerguard a bit to early (however very popular in sport shooting, to cut on time). I do not know of holster that prevents shooter from putting his finger on the trigger to early, if he wish to do so and prevent from shooting oneself in the leg.
I agree. Even if you had something like the Safariland, there is nothing to prevent your finger from going into the trigger guard. I want to try a Safariland because I've read a lot about it and want to see what the thumb release is like. That said, I still use my 10+ year old SERPA every day with my 1911.
I used a serpa for a number of years, and then started hearing the "hate" or whatever you want to call it.
Personally, my finger was always along the frame when the pistol cleared the holster.
In the end, I did get a safariland als. Now, trigger finger aside, the difference is night and day. I had to practice with the serpa to get any speed with it. As soon as the als was on the belt, it was clearly apparent how much more natural, and therefore fast the draw was with the als.
Absolutely no comparison. Put your hand on the gun, and it's in your hand, almost like it happened by will alone.
As a plus, it's noticeably more well built.
I sold the serpa.
Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk
The problem is people are not making the connection that yes the individual needs to practice booger hook discipline because no holster "prevents" an individual from putting his hook on the trigger, but the derpa holster improves the odds of it happening twofold.
It is like squirting lighter fluid on a flaming grill and expecting not to get burnt. It is like walking through the hood and expecting nothing to happen. It is like associating with known criminals and expecting not to get caught up in their shenanigans or be labeled as an accomplice because you yourself are not a criminal. It is like choosing between a bucket and a brand new car when you are about to go on a cross country road trip, and then choosing the bucket and expecting nothing to happen because you made it home from the dealer. A bunch of god d*mn regular Clark Griswolds.
I watched the episode on tv. What everyone really needs to understand with their review is that Blackhawk is a sponsor of the show. Along with STAG, Hornady, and others.
After going through two local agencies disasters with multiple STAG rifles in both semi and select fire configuration I cringe as if fingernails we're dragging on a chalk board every time I see a glowing raving review of a STAG rifle on there.
Many people use the quote of "The error net" but if you are selective about your sites to follow I'll take the internet over paid gun writers and their commercial break advertisements any day.
Tomahawk_Ghost
02-26-16, 23:26
38018
Pull up on a weapon locked into a SERPA holster before you've pressed the release and you will most likely be unable to press in the release. When this happens at speed, under some degree of stress, the shooter often responds by pulling harder on the weapon to clear, and pressing harder on the release to unlock the weapon. In ND's it is presumed that at some point the shooter 'double-clutches' (my term) and momentarily releases upward pressure on the weapon. At this point the trigger finger presses in with all the strength and urgency directed towards the locked release. The AD occurs as the weapon is drawn from the holster on the 'double-clutch.' The trigger finger, still pressing in at maximum exertion, slides up the holster as the weapon is drawn, it torques into the trigger guard when the weapon clears, in the cases where an ND occurs the shooter is unable to stop this action.
In the video which was posted earlier, everyone noticed that shooter's finger momentarily began to move into the trigger guard. This draw was executed with the only stressor being drawing in front of a camera. Compare that with the stress of a recruit shooter, on a police training range (FLETC study), firing on a timed qualification course, or during one of their first runs on a stress reaction course.
Taken in that context it is easy to see how the ND's occur, FLETC did. To say it is a training issue over-simplifies the case. The SERPA design, while seemingly a great, common sense, fast retention holster, is the primary culprit.
As if the SERPA itself isn't bad enough, a good percentage of the folks I train carry the damn things dropleg. Weapon retention? Nah, I want to look tacticool.
daddyusmaximus
02-27-16, 12:26
Pull up on a weapon locked into a SERPA holster before you've pressed the release and you will most likely be unable to press in the release.
I worry about smoothness more than outright speed, but there have been times when I ended up having to push the weapon back in... This is one of the main reasons I want to try the ALS.
It looks to me like his finger "rebounds" a little bit, indicating he wasn't intentionally putting his finger in the trigger early, but rather inadvertently due to the design of the holster.
It's geat, their own show demonstrates the issue with them, showing how close to an ND he got, while poo-pooing peoe who don't like them. This is why I don't watch "gun shows". The hypocrisy is great.
I agree. Even if you had something like the Safariland, there is nothing to prevent your finger from going into the trigger guard. I want to try a Safariland because I've read a lot about it and want to see what the thumb release is like. That said, I still use my 10+ year old SERPA every day with my 1911.
The issue isn't that it doesn't prevent it, it's that you have to push you trigger finger in the direction of the trigger to release the gun. This is not the case with safariland. Pushing the finger up will prevent this, but it's the difference in a slight divination in pressure causing an ND vs an entire movement that isn't even there with the others.
MountainRaven
02-27-16, 14:51
I worry about smoothness more than outright speed, but there have been times when I ended up having to push the weapon back in... This is one of the main reasons I want to try the ALS.
I used to use SERPAs. They are (or rather were) made in my home town. They were even my go-to holster for carrying concealed and in the field.
But I never could get to where I was regularly depressing the release first and drawing the gun second - thus I was frequently locking up the whole mechanism and going much, much slower than I needed to. Then I bought a Galco Fletch - leather, much easier to conceal, and I never had a problem with releasing the thumb snap before drawing the pistol.
I own and have used ALS holster for a few years, now, and they're so much faster and easier to operate than any other retention holster that it isn't even funny, IMO. Best of all, Amazon usually has one or more in stock for most firearms that I've bought, allowing me to have an ALS holster for a gun within days of acquiring it. They're not something that I carry concealed with, but I'd bet they conceal better than a SERPA (not that this is difficult to achieve).
Guns-up.50
02-27-16, 15:11
Although I recognize and agree there are issues with the serpa, many Marines in my unit used them myself included, we never really had issues with them, again not to say they dont exist. Now fast forward 11 yrs and my department issues them in level 3. I have not had an issue again. Im hoping to get something in the works soon for safariland
MountainRaven
02-27-16, 15:32
Although I recognize and agree there are issues with the serpa, many Marines in my unit used them myself included, we never really had issues with them, again not to say they dont exist. Now fast forward 11 yrs and my department issues them in level 3. I have not had an issue again. Im hoping to get something in the works soon for safariland
Many people who use Bushmaster and DPMS rifles have no issue with them, either. ;)
Our department issues them for Glock 23 pistols but I can't index my trigger finger 100 % of the time so they are a death trap for me. I have found that the Safariland ALS unlocks every time with thumb pressure so that is what I wear.
ColdGOOSE1974
02-27-16, 19:01
It looks to me like his finger "rebounds" a little bit, indicating he wasn't intentionally putting his finger in the trigger early, but rather inadvertently due to the design of the holster.
I think you hit the head on the nail there.
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