View Full Version : The Retardation of the Firearms Industry
BoringGuy45
02-25-16, 08:42
Good Article!
http://havokjournal.com/nation/retardation-firearms-industry/
Since around 2008, the firearm industry has taken a dramatic turn. It hasn’t exploded like some predicted after the presidential elections. It hasn’t come to a screeching halt like some legislators dreamed. It has become retarded in the last several years. Yes, I used the word “retarded” specifically for its dual meaning: it’s slid backwards and also become less able to think clearly or with purpose. I said it. Most industry promoters are idiots, and they are passing on useless garbage to the masses. Here’s why…
We all like to think of ourselves as being educated, some having nice paper diplomas up on the walls showing we can survive a few years of college. Add in the widespread availability of the internet on every electronic device possible and we can’t go wrong: right?
There are countless magazines online about firearms and new items, reviews by countless people, and forums for every subject imaginable, not to mention the guys (and gals) at the gun counter. With all this information readily available at our fingertips, we can research every future purchase and discuss them on forums and chats with other enthusiasts. tacticool cradling weapon dpc
So how is the industry losing information then? Because the people writing the articles and talking on forums or behind the counter are usually full of shit and have NO CLUE what they are talking about. While they may, and often are, smart people, they are not experts in their hobby. Yes, hobby. Someone cannot be called a professional in something if they do it just for fun or for rent money, can they? Does owning 10 guns (usually based on the recommendations of others) make someone an expert?
Most firearm professionals are busy working, either in the field, the shop, or on their next project. Firearm professionals are on deployment, constantly looking for the most efficient systems for their needs, because their lives depend on it; or are on the range deck diagnosing and fixing the bad habits of self-proclaimed YouTube experts as they do every week; or are in a busy workshop after a 12-hour day figuring out how to solve a weapon issue or how to cut weight on a future product. Firearm experts are not the college kid at the gun counter, regardless of how well he knows the price of Brand X rifle or if a barrel is 1:8 or 1:9 on Brand Y.
Do you honestly think that the 300 pound “Instructor” with ketchup & mustard stains on his shirt knows anything about shooting under stress or how to enter a room when he himself can’t fit through a normal doorway without turning sideways? While the home inspector may be a great guy, just because he put 30 rounds through a magazine off a bench to “T&E”, it doesn’t mean it has been tested. The industry has turned to hobbyists for information about products and this has led to the retardation of the industry as a whole.
So where are all the SMEs (Subject Matter Experts)? Honestly, they are tired of this exact phenomenon I’m discussing. It used to be that gun articles were written by the “Been There, Done That” guys. Magazines featured men like Clint Smith, Jim Cirillo, and others who’ve successfully survived several gunfights and had firsthand knowledge to impart with others. These are guys who’ve spent countless hours at a range, pushing past blisters and bone chilling weather because they have to, not on weekend trips to the mountains with a cooler of beer.
Current legends such as Kyle Lamb, Mike Pannone, and Kyle Defoor have spent some time writing, publishing videos (for free), and putting their knowledge out through forums only to be chastised each time by some teenage Airsoft want-a-be with nothing better to do. They’ve been unjustly insulted and criticized by so many people who don’t know shit. They’re tired of trying to help and have just stopped. Some, like Larry Vickers and Pat Rogers still maintain a presence on some forums that have a strict vetting and no BS policy, or contribute to some decent magazines. However, you have to wade through 95 pages of advertisements and articles by the hobbyists to get to the five pages of good information.
The current trend of firearm “superstars” further propagates this retardation. By emulating and even giving false validity to people who don’t deserve it, we’ve given the firearm enthusiasts false idols to learn from. The industry, with some exceptions, has turned into a group of garage AR builders, web developers, and other part-time hobbyists jerking each other off through social media, thinking that likes on Facebook, Instagram, or other media sites, somehow relate to product quality.
Those who are actually trying to do informative research on a firearm-related product are misled into thinking that a product or service is worthwhile, because all the hobbyists who are made popular are celebrating it. The use of celebrities to market a product is not new. At least Wheaties puts real athletes on their boxes. I see countless pictures of people saying “that rifle is sick,” or “that’s the best set up ever!” to gear that is often redundant and/or has no practical use.
I’ve seen rifle with three of the same sling attachment points at the same place and short-barreled AK pistols with high power scopes being hailed as the next thing in weapons only because it has X-brand parts on it or it was “run hard” on a flat range for a few mags and put on YouTube.
What happened to testing things before making a decision about its use? Where are the bad reviews? Negative reviews are almost nonexistent now. If you do happen to disbelieve the hype or call them out on any BS, then suddenly you are the asshole. I’ve seen this infection spread to the training industry as well, however, that is topic for another day.
The firearms industry is a small world. While there are many new designers, builders, manufacturers every day, most of them are just weekend hobbyists. Not very many have actually made a career behind a trigger. There definitely are exceptions. People who started in their basement or people who are popular that have made it a life’s quest and succeeded at it. However, this is not the norm.
Most of the people you see promoting the industry today have no experience, no background, and no idea how to properly test, evaluate, or describe the proper application of a product. Keep that in mind as you research your next purchase. Experts are there. They’re just sitting quietly in the corner and not running around like a five year old in a toy store, drooling over each item they see in fancy packaging. Be smart and take some time to learn who’s helping you make decisions about YOUR needs.
I think this sums up most of our complaints about the gun industry in general, and is a perfect summery of our dumbest things at the gun store thread. It's also the reason why I often can't convince people to get a quality gun over a mediocre or crappy one. It's always, "My buddy has about 200 guns, and he said the only gun he trusts is Taurus. How many guns to YOU have??"
Good Article!
I think this sums up most of our complaints about the gun industry in general, and is a perfect summery of our dumbest things at the gun store thread. It's also the reason why I often can't convince people to get a quality gun over a mediocre or crappy one. It's always, "My buddy has about 200 guns, and he said the only gun he trusts is Taurus. How many guns to YOU have??"
Spot on for sure.
Can you post the link to the article please?
Yeah...the YouTube factor is pretty bad.
Some gay video of some kid not even shaving yet going on about how "AKs are the best weapons ever" or all the 'instructor' types.
You want more people to appreciate marksmanship and good knowledge but...bleh.
And all the smart guys just want to stay removed from the feces concert of some dudes declaring their DPMS a battle ready rifle and angrily posting from their Grooming and Haberdashery forums.
Plus someone told me once "shooting is easy, being worth a flip is an entirely different matter"
Straight Shooter
02-25-16, 10:07
Ive been absolutely sick of 'the gun world" for a long long time now. Its to the point you cant tell nobody nothing cause some assclown on the internet who aint as old as some of my guns and hasn't fired 500 rounds total in his life put up a video or post sayin otherwise. And it kills me that people go to a sporting goods store and even Walmart and actually think the person behind the counter knows anything worthwhile at all about firearms. A lot of folks want everything on the cheap..or free. Cheap guns, ammo...and free advice on shooting, without truly dedicating themselves to real SELF DEFENSE. I don't tell anybody anything anymore unless they ask.
And lets not even mention the damage Hollywood has done....
OP- Please add source information to your post... Link, author, etc. Thanks.
brickboy240
02-25-16, 10:52
When I see anything zombie related or various colors or finishes....that junk turns me off.
Focus less on crap and more on the overall QC of said firearms....THEN I might be interested.
Zombie ammo and a shotgun available in 5 different camo patterns? Not interested....sorry.
That sort of trend tends to attract douchbags to our sport/hobby, does it not?
BoringGuy45
02-25-16, 11:32
OP- Please add source information to your post... Link, author, etc. Thanks.
Done :)
I think out Gunshop stupidity thread is a great example.
Just got my monthly American Rifleman. It could have as well been left in the post office trash can. 90% of the content is either paid or gratuitous shilling for silly stuff of no real use whatsoever. Not to mention a splashy article lauding Ruger's latest ugly pistol.
But to be fair, I lost interest in Chevy pickups when the '67s came out. That's about when politicians and businessmen decided we would buy anything as long as it was new and shiny. Sad to say, they were spot on.
Can't resist a passing reference to the frequently seen "It's A Jeep Thing--You Wouldn't Understand." stickers. (The hell I wouldn't...) As John Wayne might say, I've got a Jeep older than you." As a matter of fact, I owned several plus a Land Rover before this one...
Time to go knap a few more flints for the firelock.
I can empathize with the authors frustrations. It's something I deal with every day in my biz. It's the end result of unfettered access to information via the net and no filter or vetting system for it. As example, my YT page gets decent traffic and I have approx 12K subscribers. There's a whole bunch of health/fitness/bbing "experts" out there giving the worst f-ing advice you could possibly believe, with zero background for the advice, zero vetting, and zero to little actual experience, yet they have FAR more hits and subscribers than I do.
They sell on hype and BS.
My web site gets good traffic, no where near as much as some idiot telling people magic berry of the month used by tribes in Africa will cue their weight problems and make them look like Arnold in the next 30 days. I d my best to not let it bother me too much....
Hype sells, the truth is boring, and facts are less important than hyperbole, and it matters not the industry you focus on, unless the person behind the product gives a damn. Sadly, quality, be it product or intel, is often it's own, and only reward.
If you can get past your conscience, you can make a lot of money in the firearms biz, the supplement/health biz, and most others I find.
brickboy240
02-25-16, 15:18
All gun magazines are terrible.
In the gun mags, every pistol shoots tight, centered groups, never jams and does not rust. They are all great and all equal! LOL
That Recoil magazine is the worst. Loads of crazy expensive gear, most of which you do not need. Their truck/jeep/suv builds are also on the silly side. Pretty pictures of most things that the average shooter cannot afford or does not need. Silly gun finishes like pink camo and purple metallic AR rifles.
No thanks...I will stay away.
Doc Safari
02-25-16, 15:21
Most gun magazines (the print kind) and gun-related TV shows are nothing but glorified ads for a certain product. When the outdoor channels devote an entire show to Brand X you know you're not going to hear one iota of criticism about that brand. Therefore all such media venues are useless unless you're just out to see what accessories you can get for a certain firearm or how it looks before you order one. You'll never get an objective review.
I still watch the outdoor channels, but it's a given they are for entertainment and not real information.
But what REALLY frosts my ass is when someone steps forward to instruct, and the instructee is somehow insulted that anyone dare imply that their skill, stance, gun, or whatever is anything less than perfect already.
I tried giving some pointers to a guy at the range one day because his stance, hold, and everything were totally FUBAR. I didn't expect him to drop to his knees and kiss my feet, just a simple "Thanks, Mister."
Instead I got a lecture on how he "doesn't do it like that" and that I should mind my own business. That individual will probably get frustrated with his poor shooting and give up the hobby within six months.
I also can't stand the people who think that just because they bought a firearm they immediately know how to shoot it accurately or that they're "done buying guns now". I know a guy who spent many thousands of dollars on multiple models of a certain type of pistol only to find after shooting one for the first time that the whole platform "wasn't for him." He sold every one of them at a loss and proceeded to spend another few thousand on "the next big thing" in firearms that he was sure he was going to love.
I could go on and on...but something has to change or I may be reduced to one of those people who isn't a gun "enthusiast", just a gun "owner."
I think the gun world has become so mainstream and so big that it has fragmented, just like any other big, mainstream industry where consumers are involved.
Yeah, there are guys and gals out there who want serious, hard-use guns and accessories that have stood up to harsh conditions, are actually useful in situations folks might find themselves in, etc. However, there are many, many other gun owners for whom guns are like any other consumer item, and they buy them because they're cool, popular, new, good-looking, or whatever. They shoot maybe 50 rounds a year (or maybe never; lots of gun collectors are not shooters) and like to tinker with parts, finishes, optics, and whatever else feeds their fancy.
I do think it is bullshit when folks who have NOT BTDT claim to know how to fight with a gun and recommend setups for hard use. However, I have no problem with folks who review guns like others review gaming systems or Jeeps; if you look at something like the Cobalt Kinetics BAMF you can see where huge parts of the gun industry are headed. Yes, there is a safety issue here, but safety is also a huge issue with motorcycles, rock crawlers, mountain bikes, aerial drones, and street racing. I could go on...
Anyway, wading through bullshit is part of being involved in any large community of enthusiasts. I for one say GOOD that the firearms community is becoming more and more like every other mainstream group out there. It's so much harder to demonize something when it is ingrained in the popular culture.
Yeah...the YouTube factor is pretty bad.
Some gay video of some kid not even shaving yet going on about how "AKs are the best weapons ever" or all the 'instructor' types.
You want more people to appreciate marksmanship and good knowledge but...bleh.
And all the smart guys just want to stay removed from the feces concert of some dudes declaring their DPMS a battle ready rifle and angrily posting from their Grooming and Haberdashery forums.
Plus someone told me once "shooting is easy, being worth a flip is an entirely different matter"
It's bad and good all at the same time. It just takes effort to sort the good info from the bad. I enjoy it. Beats watching cable tv and crappy news channels.
Even the derpy youtube channels and internet blogs have gem of info now and then.
I'll confess. I haven't bought anything paper print in a long time. Even the emags that I get, I'm buying less and less. They are becoming 90% ads. Too little content.
I love the information age. I Wouldn't go back either.
I can empathize with the authors frustrations. It's something I deal with every day in my biz. It's the end result of unfettered access to information via the net and no filter or vetting system for it. As example, my YT page gets decent traffic and I have approx 12K subscribers. There's a whole bunch of health/fitness/bbing "experts" out there giving the worst f-ing advice you could possibly believe, with zero background for the advice, zero vetting, and zero to little actual experience, yet they have FAR more hits and subscribers than I do.
They sell on hype and BS.
My web site gets good traffic, no where near as much as some idiot telling people magic berry of the month used by tribes in Africa will cue their weight problems and make them look like Arnold in the next 30 days. I d my best to not let it bother me too much....
Hype sells, the truth is boring, and facts are less important than hyperbole, and it matters not the industry you focus on, unless the person behind the product gives a damn. Sadly, quality, be it product or intel, is often it's own, and only reward.
If you can get past your conscience, you can make a lot of money in the firearms biz, the supplement/health biz, and most others I find.
Wait wait wait wait wait wait...
So you're telling me the Tahitian Noni Juice I've been drinking since 2006 isn't helping with my wieght loss???????
GOD DAMN IT!!!!!
AnthonyCumia
02-25-16, 15:57
Well what are we going to do about this? Can anything BE done?
Doc Safari
02-25-16, 16:30
Well what are we going to do about this? Can anything BE done?
My gut feeling is: NO.
This country's love of firearms began with a long tradition stretching back to wooden ships landing on unexplored shores.
This tradition has been handed down through the years from father to child.
Somewhere along the line this tradition was broken with this country's high divorce rate, and the ever-increasing media propaganda machine.
Of course, there will always be a remnant of firearms owners who still learn the craft properly and pass it on to their kids, but the majority of society has become the "have to have it now" and "why do I need to train" mentality.
Maybe a major upheaval will change things, but I doubt it.
I predict the second amendment maybe has 100 years left on it, and only because of the Heller decision.
Wait wait wait wait wait wait...
So you're telling me the Tahitian Noni Juice I've been drinking since 2006 isn't helping with my wieght loss???????
GOD DAMN IT!!!!!
Dat's what I'm telling ya! Sorry bro. No matter how many you try to save from such BS and scams, there's a million that will replace them. Dr Oz et al have seen to that....
This is just my opinion.
I think a good class where you learned something will leave you feeling humbled and like a dumbass.
The "Everybody is a winner" mentality is like everyone gets a trophy day. It should be very possible to fail and fail hard.
At the moment of truth, you want to fall back on something worthwhile. Were you pushed? Were you challenged? Did you have to think? Did you have to perform at a high standard?
Or was it a fantasy camp where everybody was fat dumb and happy?
A good instructor can be pointed and have a "predictable" rigor without just being a parrot. You Will See This Again.
That's the best damn saying ever.
If you're in a jungle, or a dark alley ghetto, or a shithole Sharia town...you better not be having to remember dumb shit or think too much. Like you better hear the instructor, if he's worth a damn, in the back of your head Obi Wan style telling you what to do when you are Condition Redding yourself into some thick shit.
But these fad YouTube people are selling attitude and opinions but no substance. And they are selling false confidence.
Like those Karate joints that promise your kid will get a Black Belt in two years. It's lame.
I haven't had to pay for any training but if I did, it would be under someone pretty well vetted.
But god help me I can't take a boyfriend and girlfriend couple seriously nor some kid born after New Kids on The Block's heyday. Or some breakdancing dude who was a prison guard in Siberia who was like prison "Spetsnaz". Like a SORT team like a prison has. There are some, I'm sure, Spetsnaz dudes who can speak English with a midwestern accent and probably lullabied some folks but....still.
I would hate to see a hobby hewn from a vacation turn into a fad. And that fad represented horridly like a Tapout shirt.
I have my Colt, KAC, and LMT "killin'" guns but....I have my most fun with a .22, a good .38, and older bolt actions with some honest use. I need a Garand.
But....some of these folks think you are the sum of your collection. NOPE.
I know a bud who got out the army, bought an M&P15 and a Beretta. MP15 probably not the highest grade rifle but this dude is a high grade shooter, configured his rifle to what he was familiar with. Got a good zero. And has it "just in case". You're likely to see him with a mil surp or a lever action over anything else.
Now I ramble.
Tldr crass over commercialization of one of the few things in life that still makes me giggle like a schoolgirl.
I predict the second amendment maybe has 100 years left on it, and only because of the Heller decision.
I'd say 10 if a Dem takes office.
AnthonyCumia
02-25-16, 19:19
My gut feeling is: NO.
This country's love of firearms began with a long tradition stretching back to wooden ships landing on unexplored shores.
This tradition has been handed down through the years from father to child.
Somewhere along the line this tradition was broken with this country's high divorce rate, and the ever-increasing media propaganda machine.
Of course, there will always be a remnant of firearms owners who still learn the craft properly and pass it on to their kids, but the majority of society has become the "have to have it now" and "why do I need to train" mentality.
Maybe a major upheaval will change things, but I doubt it.
I predict the second amendment maybe has 100 years left on it, and only because of the Heller decision.
You want to bet the ranch the 2nd has a sunset date?
Alot more people are taking less and less crap from the Feds....
Heller and McDonald, the greatest gift Scalia gave to us among countless others....God Bless him.
Reading and studying and listening and thinking have been boring and dull for at least 35 years. As a young man I often heard people justify a statement by saying that they read it in a book, an authority source. Today, YOU TUBE is an authority source, and because it also entertains, the naïve and uninformed are reinforced to return for more of the same slop. A book can emphasize bull shit too as we all know.
Perhaps the op is telling us that the gun industry is blowing smoke up a lot of skirts, and that this hype misinforms many who in turn participate in a giant feedback loop. They project their own version of misinformation that circles back to industry dummies. In the mix are uninformed instructors, ignorant hobbyists, a few knowledgeable people, and a large population of tired and dismayed folks like some of us here.
I like pistol grip shotguns but am aware of their severe limitations. I just like them. Recently, I shot a friend's AK pistol and want one too. It was great fun. If I can bump fire and not be observed, I'll indulge here but usually will lie and deny the activity. A sad fact is that the internet presents hordes of idiots praising some of these types of weapons or accessories and recommending their purchase. Such weapons aren't evil but do lack utility or a place in the thinking man's arsenal.
polydeuces
02-25-16, 20:51
I may sound like a f#*ktard saying this but if (unless?) it passes the M4C test, i may give it a look. If not, meh...
Theres a lot of real 'talent' here, most of them 'somewhat' impatient with aforementioned turdshining.
A good thing.
So yeah, theres hope.
I'm the chairman of our local Friends of NRA committee. We raise a ton of money for shooting programs and gun ranges..nothing political. The process is setup so that we can purchase firearms for raffles and other fundraising activities. The choices are populated with choices from fine (sarcasm font) manufacturers like Taurus, KelTec, Frontier Arms and other bottom of the pond builders. Last year I chose to have a ten gun raffle with zero firearms coming from bottom line vendors. I purchased outside the FNRA system and bought guns from Nosler, Daniel Defense, Glock, Colt, Ruger and Kimber. I sold twice as many tickets as I ever had when trying to raffle cheap fad guns. My faith was restored, there are still a BUNCH of folks out there that want quality guns. I'm at the point now that I simply refuse to use even cheap shit for fundraising. If you are going to win a gun from me, the worst you are going to get is a Ruger or Kimber.
I disagree with most of what is written in that link. Primarily because it wreaks of exclusivity and arrogance.
The hobbyists are gun owners too and we need everyone we can get in order to keep the grabbers at bay.
Are some of them obnoxious? Yes, but so are a select few of the SME crowd.
Everyone started somewhere.......just saying.
I think a good class where you learned something will leave you feeling humbled and like a dumbass.
.
At the moment of truth, you want to fall back on something worthwhile. Were you pushed? Were you challenged? Did you have to think? Did you have to perform at a high standard?
I took an advanced marksmanship class with LAV and that is exactly how I felt afterward. It was awesome though because and it helped me focus on improving the areas where I was weak.
I think most folks these days can't admit that they suck at something or own up to the fact that they actually don't actually have any true expertise when it comes to gun stuff. Recognizing your weaknesses and being proactive in addressing them requires a level of self awareness most people don't possess.
I disagree with most of what is written in that link. Primarily because it wreaks of exclusivity and arrogance.
The hobbyists are gun owners too and we need everyone we can get in order to keep the grabbers at bay.
Are some of them obnoxious? Yes, but so are a select few of the SME crowd.
Everyone started somewhere.......just saying.
I agree with this. The more hobbyists, owners, SMEs (the real ones) the better.
Information on YouTube, is free. Though I consider it entertainment, some are unable to afford the SME pricing for classes and so forth. Thus YT is there only venue for information for them.
The tough part is to bring all gun owners together under the same flag of the 2nd Amendment by checking egos at the door. But that can only start by eliminating the divisiveness amongst ourselves.
I may sound like a f#*ktard saying this but if (unless?) it passes the M4C test, i may give it a look. If not, meh...
Theres a lot of real 'talent' here, most of them 'somewhat' impatient with aforementioned turdshining.
A good thing.
So yeah, theres hope.
Sadly, there used to be a lot more, and they actually posted even more useful scoop. I joined shortly before a lot of them left, probably because they got tired of getting challenged by wannabes. There's quite a bit of truth in OP's linked article.
I've just become jaded. My first AR was a large pin Colt 16" LW. I had it set up all wrong with one of those horrid "Delta" cheekpieces and a 3X9 Tasco on the carry handle. I didn't know poop from shinola. I got out of AR's for several years and when I came back, I joined here so I could vacuum up as much solid intel as I could. I've bought and sold several since then and the ones I have left are dialed in. A metric ton of newer stuff has come out since then, but other than wanting to build a superlight PDW in .300BLK, I just don't get interested anymore. I could spend thousands more and the net would be far less than just buying more ammo. When I wear out my primary, I'll just get a new barrel/bolt and keep on shooting.
It's the same for pistols. I've got more of them because I carry and use them more. My primaries are all Glocks. They're completely uninteresting and they're what I carry and depend on. I see new stuff from quality manufacturers and I get interested, but they're not getting my money. Instead I order more reloading components to feed the Dillons.
I used to do a lot of training for folks, but no more. If I see someone really struggling, I might ask "Need any help?" If they're truly interested and willing to be open minded, I enjoy it for a bit. At the first sign of resistance, "Well, it looks like you know what you want, good luck!" and I'm out. It just isn't worth the headache.
I'm well past the point of "operator" status. Most of my training time these days is spent on evaluating people in an administrative setting. It's more important for me to be able to accurately assess an individual, then make a referral the front line guys will take serious should it come to that. I don't trust anyone and that automatically reduces my risk significantly. To be honest, 99% of us don't need hi speed training. When new shooters who don't tote a rifle professionally ask me who to train with, I tell them to sign up for an Appleseed event first. They need marksmanship and all that goes with it before "dynamic training". The second they start talking about what they "learned" on the internet, "Nice to meet you..." and I'm out. Life's too short for all that. JMO, YMMV
Moose-Knuckle
02-26-16, 00:35
I think it was LAV who said; "Become your own SME."
And as Markm has said; "Guns attract idiots".
But what in life doesn't?
At the end of the day, firearms have never been more popular in mainstream America. Just got to separate the wheat from the chaff gents.
misanthropist
02-26-16, 00:48
All gun magazines are terrible.
In the gun mags, every pistol shoots tight, centered groups, never jams and does not rust. They are all great and all equal! LOL
That Recoil magazine is the worst. Loads of crazy expensive gear, most of which you do not need. Their truck/jeep/suv builds are also on the silly side. Pretty pictures of most things that the average shooter cannot afford or does not need. Silly gun finishes like pink camo and purple metallic AR rifles.
No thanks...I will stay away.
You're just reading the wrong magazines. Pick them according to which has the best-looking editor, that's the most reliable method.
Running a gun magazine is like running any other business...you have to walk a fine line between losing your suppliers and losing your customers. If you trash your suppliers like a lot of youtubers, your goose is cooked; if you screw your customers, then either you market to idiots, which is possible, but ruins your credibility with anyone else and a lot of suppliers get skeptical of what you're doing, or else you just crash and burn because nobody will listen to anything you say.
So you have to pick your poison. I'm lucky because my publisher wants diplomatically phrased honesty. I wasn't especially kind to the Arsenal Strike One, although I didn't utterly trash it either. I got one that couldn't hold the mag in and said so; I also said we were able to sort out the mag issue with a single email, which got us a replacement. Apparently it was a known issue on some of the earlier models.
I also said I had major issues tracking the silver sights on the silver slide and I couldn't deal with it, even though it looked really cool and I could understand why people wanted the silver/grey colour scheme.
That was a pricey gun from a major advertiser and I was pretty up front about the issues, precisely because the magazine I work for puts a priority on doing the readers a service.
OTOH, it's easy for us because we're literally the only gun magazine in the country. So we can totally afford to do things that technically aren't the most productive, business-wise. But at the same time, it's partly an ethical decision: the publisher's favourite magazine is Practical Sailor, which is this fairly obscure publication that is barely more than a photocopied stack of paper seven times a year for twenty bucks. BUT: they have no sponsors or advertisers and they pay full retail for anything they test. So if they say something is good, it's good, and that's that.
So anyway, it's possible to run a commercial magazine that's pretty scrupulous, and it's even possible to run a gun magazine that's decent IF you start with good principles and a sufficiently handsome editor.
But I do agree that the industry has problems. Although they don't even compare to the problems the auto industry has, for example.
I don't follow most Youtube channels for the same reason I don't read most gun magazines and no longer post on most firearm forums. I used to be active on damn near every single one.
The number of experts who have "been there and done that" AND care to write/publish is probably fairly small.
The number of experts who have "been there and done that" AND care to write/publish is probably fairly small.
Aye. Some of the best "no shit there I was" stuff will never get published or repeated due to burn out or simply not caring to share.
The few who do, and are competent, are a godsend trying to help out the next guy. But receive constant flak because they like one gun over another or something minor.
Like, Larry Vickers. Never met the man nor taken a class(though one day money and time providing I wanna get down on one of his SR-25 courses to see what my girl can really do), but he actually 'had' to make a video about his weight because of guys on other forums running their suck because he speaks his mind and feelings got hurt.
WTF. Dude is like...50 something. He did a long time in a taxing field. Eating what he wants and doing what he wants is his god given right.
Same way with someone else saying they don't care for brand x. Oh well. Glock isn't perfect but I stick with it because of muscle memory. Tried M&P, carried it, hit steel with it, but it didn't feel second nature familiar.
These are minor details when individual ability matters more.
Or I'm rambling but while I like the internet for what's new and what's out there; it has given voice to people with absolutely nothing worth hearing.
Which lends "credence" to blowhards and makes the solid guys like Mr. Vickers just wanna say "f it. Screw em".
Its like a smoke pit. Lots of good stuff to hear until an asshole shows up then everybody has to go.
BrigandTwoFour
02-26-16, 15:55
As to the, "What can be done?" question...well, I think it depends on what the end vision is supposed to be. IMO, one of the hardest things about the "gun community" is that there are a lot of individual "tribes" that advocate for their own personal "brand" of firearms ownership. NRA high power/CMP, F-Class, Bench Rest, Precision Rifle, Hunters, IDPA/USPSA, Preppers, the Tactical Crowd (that this side tends to), the backyard hillbilly, and others. Each group has it's heroes and champions that the members of that tribe will look up to and aspire to be. Each group has its own message boards (M4C, Arf, Sniper's Hide, Target Talk, The High Road, etc.)
Unfortunately, I think a lot of the problem is that we (as a whole) can't seem to agree on what the end result is supposed to look like. The advice for a new shooter here at M4C is to buy a 6920, a thousand rounds of ammo, and go to a training course from LAV, Pat Rogers, or Kyle Lamb (among others). That advice may be drastically different at one of the other sites. We dislike each other's SMEs; we dislike other forms of training or competition; and we certainly don't seem to respect every individual's circumstances that led to purchasing a firearm in the first place.
IMO, what we lack is a common vision. Until we come up with one, the problems will continue. In the meantime, we're left with the flood of folks who dabble and spend stupid amounts of money on equipment they can't use correctly in order to make up for some perceived deficiency they don't understand. These same people will then go out and parrot the advice of their "tribe" because they simply don't know any better.
Sam Colt , on the street, sold hits of nitrous under the alias "The Celebrated Dr. Coult of New-York, London and Calcutta", (in between designing guns)
That sounds a lil sketchy...
Gaston Glock designed his first gun at age 52. He had manufactured polymers before.
What the hell could they have possibly known?
Hugh Freeze, head football coach at Ole Miss, never played football.
Not exactly the traditional path to that gig.
What I'm saying is that it's not always a specific experience that one requires to be great.
As far as ridiculous products and rave reviews? Caveat Emptor!
Additionally...
I'd prefer a person make ugly bright pink guns and employ tons of people, or write quasi adverts in a gun rag...rather than burn down drug stores and shit on police cars.
I don't make this post with the intention of insulting anyone, especially the OP. And I know there are NO DOUBT MANY people on this board who can comment and criticize intelligently on the matter of training and the required cred.
But it's a business, guys! This is America! We make shit and try to get people to buy it. And some buy it for different reasons than others. And the reason we do this is capitalism. To make our own way.
The gun industry is as good as it's been in my lifetime, as far as availability and quality.
Sometimes we, the gun ownership, tend to totally discount something someone else might like. For instance, I don't know how they ever sold even one Chiappa Rhino, but my buddy loves his.
With gun rags, as above, caveat emptor.
Try not to get too wound around the axle by a guy just trying to feed his family. There's enough stuff headed our way that we don't need to be shootin' into the tent on our own.
Just my thoughts
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The OP raises some good points but I tend to disagree with the thrust of the article. To me, while the firearms world probably has a lot more high profile morons than ever before, its certainly a lot easier to access good quality information than ever before. The key to this, just like to every type of information assessment, is to be discerning. If you look at one dopey Youtube video or one dopey forum post and take it as gospel you're going to get burned just like the morons in everyone's Facebook newsfeed who share any idiotic thing they see. These people have always existed you just see more of them because you see more of everything in the "information age."
On the flip side, unlike in years past, we don't have to solely rely on advertising driven gun rags or the guy behind the gun counter for information. I mean seriously, if it weren't for Youtube and internet forums who, other than a very select group, would have ever even heard of guys like Larry Vickers, Kyle Defoor or Mike Pannone? I know I certainly wouldn't have. I probably would have bought a Kimber and an RRA because that's what the local gun shop pushes. I know mine has been run by the same guy since I was a kid so its not like he changed in 2008, but the information I have access to certainly has. In fact, when it comes to ARs with a single exception so far I haven't bought anything that hasn't worked as advertised thanks to the research I've been able to do. I've certainly kept some things and moved on from others but they all did their jobs. Hell, the very first things I bought after my rifle were a GG&G light mount and one of those Midwest Industries front sight base rails. I sold them off a while ago but I still recommend them to people who don't want to make any permanent mods to their guns.
The one exception is my Eotech, which I purchased because it was what I am issued in my professional capacity. Of course, thanks to the internet, the serious flaws in that optic were widely disseminated and now we're moving toward Aimpoints, which as per the internet, I would have bought for myself in the first place but I wanted to maintain consistency. So, you know I guess I tend to think that in reality, the state of the industry has probably never been better.
misanthropist
02-27-16, 17:07
I'd prefer a person make ugly bright pink guns and employ tons of people, or write quasi adverts in a gun rag...rather than burn down drug stores and shit on police cars.
Does it have to be one or the other? Because some of us have a hard time choosing just one career path and I feel like if I'm gifted in a couple of areas, I should be able to pursue that.
Eurodriver
02-27-16, 18:14
I am in full agreement with this guy. The internet has completely ruined the vetting process of gear/tactics reviews. I have seen a few guys that I enjoy watching, but I watch them for entertainment value or to figure out if xxx works with yyy. A good example is twangnbang and Hickok45. Purely entertainment factor, but when making a purchase (the Mueller APV for my .22 with Twangnbang comes to mind) I can see the items in action. But I'm certainly not taking Hickok's word for it that whatever gun he got for free from Buds Gun Shop is the latest and greatest because it can hit some steel plates.
Youtube sucks balls. Unfortunately, stupid people watch stupid people so these guys get tens of thousands of views. There's a guy here who acts like some hot shot NFA suppressor guru - he's a ****ing firefighter. A firefighter. His job is grocery shopping, washing trucks, and taking elderly women to the hospital for hand pain. Yet all my friends failed college too so they went to FF school and know the guy. I constantly have to hear about this guy doing this and that and how cool all his gear is and all the shoots he has. That's awesome - I'm glad he has fun. But they take it a step further and base all of their purchases on shit he says. Bitch, he hasn't BTDT. You're buying equipment on some hypothetical SHTF scenario, and taking equipment advice from a fireman. What does a firefighter with a youtube channel know about a two way range?
Useful idiots though - he gets the neckbeards and mouth breathers interested in NFA toys. The more of those, the easier/cheaper they are to get and it's win-win. I just bite my tongue when I'm at the range and they ask me for advice. That reminds me...I have to post a funny story to the dumbest shit overheard in a gun store thread...
I am in full agreement with this guy. The internet has completely ruined the vetting process of gear/tactics reviews. I have seen a few guys that I enjoy watching, but I watch them for entertainment value or to figure out if xxx works with yyy. A good example is twangnbang and Hickok45. Purely entertainment factor, but when making a purchase (the Mueller APV for my .22 with Twangnbang comes to mind) I can see the items in action. But I'm certainly not taking Hickok's word for it that whatever gun he got for free from Buds Gun Shop is the latest and greatest because it can hit some steel plates.
Youtube sucks balls. Unfortunately, stupid people watch stupid people so these guys get tens of thousands of views. There's a guy here who acts like some hot shot NFA suppressor guru - he's a ****ing firefighter. A firefighter. His job is grocery shopping, washing trucks, and taking elderly women to the hospital for hand pain. Yet all my friends failed college too so they went to FF school and know the guy. I constantly have to hear about this guy doing this and that and how cool all his gear is and all the shoots he has. That's awesome - I'm glad he has fun. But they take it a step further and base all of their purchases on shit he says. Bitch, he hasn't BTDT. You're buying equipment on some hypothetical SHTF scenario, and taking equipment advice from a fireman. What does a firefighter with a youtube channel know about a two way range?
Useful idiots though - he gets the neckbeards and mouth breathers interested in NFA toys. The more of those, the easier/cheaper they are to get and it's win-win. I just bite my tongue when I'm at the range and they ask me for advice. That reminds me...I have to post a funny story to the dumbest shit overheard in a gun store thread...
All true. But for about 10 years 95% of all firearms knowledge came directly from "Tales of the Gun" on the History Channel. Not a terrible source mind you but there were errors from time to time. And I can't count the number of guys who told me the "rusty AK in the locker back in Vietnam" story from a first person perspective.
And before that it was stuff like books from Duncan Long, who explained how that clip on the hand guard of a HK91 was so you can hang your rifle from a nail.
Problem is, regardless of the medium, there will always be idiots who are wrong about something. And that only thing worse than them are the non critical thinkers who can't reason anything for themselves and simply parrot the stupidity as if it were gospel. And sadly they exist in numbers too great to ever be overcome completely.
Actually Steyr, not to derail but what IS that clippy thing on the wide handguard for?
I have an HK91 and nobody ever told me. I've heard it was a bottle opener, a sling mount, and even heard it was part of some way to "stack and swivel" HKs but....I don't know and want someone to explain it to me.
Also, Euro (still want senpai to notice me), all good points I guess. Some people just wanna be somebody. While the S could HTF, I try to think positive. But yeah, no. Most FFers, and God bless them for what they do, aren't gun haulers.
To be fair, most police aren't like Light Infantry either. You can be a police for a while and never have to do anything too bad or be a rookie for a year and get jammed in a cracker barrel.
I dunno. I'm at a point where I prefer just recreational shooting.
Tldr yeah like 99% of self professed tactical practical heroes need to get over themselves. Especially that one kid who harps on about AKs being so great but whatever
Actually Steyr, not to derail but what IS that clippy thing on the wide handguard for?
I have an HK91 and nobody ever told me. I've heard it was a bottle opener, a sling mount, and even heard it was part of some way to "stack and swivel" HKs but....I don't know and want someone to explain it to me.
It is the third attachment point for the HK 3 point sling - the double loop buckle of the sling snaps into it to hold the weapon tight against the body so it doesn't flop - that is one of the things that us lefties didn't get to enjoy - the authoritative looking snap breaking the sling out of the third attachment point. Really cool if you are a righty going all Phil Singleton CQB with an MP5.
Anyways that is what it is for.
misanthropist
02-27-16, 20:08
I think if you believe the internet has ruined anything to do with the propagation of gun knowledge, you don't remember what it was like before the internet.
There are so many more people that are now informed to a minimal level than there used to be...I mean for most people gun counter banter used to be gospel. And that banter didn't even derive from something as dumb as nutnfancy. It was purely out of the head of whatever guy at your range shot the best one time somebody was there. Guys like Mel Tappan were kingpins of spreading knowledge, and the basis of the knowledge they passed on? "Plenty of time to think, because I'm a morbidly obese paraplegic in a wheelchair".
There didn't used to be anything like this many people with something distantly related to a clue. It used to be way worse.
If you think it's annoying to have tens of thousands of people who are like "I don't know, maybe a ruger's as good as a glock, mine's been good" then man, you don't remember what it was like when people seriously, genuinely, aggressively asserted you couldn't build a pistol frame out of plastic, or that we were all better off with Garands than ARs.
This isn't good, but it's the best it's ever been.
Actually Steyr, not to derail but what IS that clippy thing on the wide handguard for?
I have an HK91 and nobody ever told me. I've heard it was a bottle opener, a sling mount, and even heard it was part of some way to "stack and swivel" HKs but....I don't know and want someone to explain it to me.
Actually, it's a keeper for the R3 tactical sling. The sliding buckle clips into it. The same clip is found on the receiver of the HK94 / MP5.
http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/uploads/Weaponeer/images/2008-07-19_174656_HK_SlingHookCloseup.jpg
I think if you believe the internet has ruined anything to do with the propagation of gun knowledge, you don't remember what it was like before the internet.
There are so many more people that are now informed to a minimal level than there used to be...I mean for most people gun counter banter used to be gospel. And that banter didn't even derive from something as dumb as nutnfancy. It was purely out of the head of whatever guy at your range shot the best one time somebody was there. Guys like Mel Tappan were kingpins of spreading knowledge, and the basis of the knowledge they passed on? "Plenty of time to think, because I'm a morbidly obese paraplegic in a wheelchair".
There didn't used to be anything like this many people with something distantly related to a clue. It used to be way worse.
If you think it's annoying to have tens of thousands of people who are like "I don't know, maybe a ruger's as good as a glock, mine's been good" then man, you don't remember what it was like when people seriously, genuinely, aggressively asserted you couldn't build a pistol frame out of plastic, or that we were all better off with Garands than ARs.
This isn't good, but it's the best it's ever been.
Not completely true.
HK did it way back in 1970 without any significant uproar. People mostly just hated the trigger. So the idea that a gun first produced more than a decade later would have people claiming "it couldn't be done" just isn't really factually correct.
I'm sure they existed, like people who insist we never really went to the moon, but it wasn't something that was taken seriously or published. To the contrary guys like Peter G. Kokalis were pretty impressed. This is the SOF review from 1984.
http://remtek.com/arms/glock/model/9/17/
Thanks 26 and Steyr. Never knew. I don't have a sling for mine and any MP5 I've ever messed with just had the two point.
I doubt that I shall sling my HK as it's a collector/once in a while shooter.
I'll admit I sorta bought into the bottle opener bit because of Chevy Chase but didn't see how it was possible having one in my hands and not wanting to jack up my rifle
ETA I think some of the Glock hate came from that one incident with that Florida cop shooting himself in the butt. Like in the super early 90s. I was a teenybopper and at that point in life the only guns anyone I knew had and took me shooting were Model 19s, 1911s, or Berettas. I think the trigger safety on Glocks seemed kinda odd to people back then.
Also TV and movies didn't help.
misanthropist
02-27-16, 20:58
Not completely true.
HK did it way back in 1970 without any significant uproar. People mostly just hated the trigger. So the idea that a gun first produced more than a decade later would have people claiming "it couldn't be done" just isn't really factually correct.
I'm sure they existed, like people who insist we never really went to the moon, but it wasn't something that was taken seriously or published. To the contrary guys like Peter G. Kokalis were pretty impressed. This is the SOF review from 1984.
http://remtek.com/arms/glock/model/9/17/
Yeah, that didn't even remotely slow people down from asserting it, though. Retardation of the public and accomplishments of the industry are, in my experience, totally unrelated variables.
Unless we're talking about retardation among people who do reviews for SOF, I guess, in which case I think this entire discussion is kind of confusing.
I think if you believe the internet has ruined anything to do with the propagation of gun knowledge, you don't remember what it was like before the internet.
There are so many more people that are now informed to a minimal level than there used to be...I mean for most people gun counter banter used to be gospel. And that banter didn't even derive from something as dumb as nutnfancy. It was purely out of the head of whatever guy at your range shot the best one time somebody was there. Guys like Mel Tappan were kingpins of spreading knowledge, and the basis of the knowledge they passed on? "Plenty of time to think, because I'm a morbidly obese paraplegic in a wheelchair".
There didn't used to be anything like this many people with something distantly related to a clue. It used to be way worse.
If you think it's annoying to have tens of thousands of people who are like "I don't know, maybe a ruger's as good as a glock, mine's been good" then man, you don't remember what it was like when people seriously, genuinely, aggressively asserted you couldn't build a pistol frame out of plastic, or that we were all better off with Garands than ARs.
This isn't good, but it's the best it's ever been.
This is what I was trying to say, but written well.
Moose-Knuckle
02-28-16, 01:18
And before that it was stuff like books from Duncan Long, who explained how that clip on the hand guard of a HK91 was so you can hang your rifle from a nail.
Problem is, regardless of the medium, there will always be idiots who are wrong about something. And that only thing worse than them are the non critical thinkers who can't reason anything for themselves and simply parrot the stupidity as if it were gospel. And sadly they exist in numbers too great to ever be overcome completely.
I think if you believe the internet has ruined anything to do with the propagation of gun knowledge, you don't remember what it was like before the internet.
There are so many more people that are now informed to a minimal level than there used to be...I mean for most people gun counter banter used to be gospel. And that banter didn't even derive from something as dumb as nutnfancy. It was purely out of the head of whatever guy at your range shot the best one time somebody was there. Guys like Mel Tappan were kingpins of spreading knowledge, and the basis of the knowledge they passed on? "Plenty of time to think, because I'm a morbidly obese paraplegic in a wheelchair".
There didn't used to be anything like this many people with something distantly related to a clue. It used to be way worse.
If you think it's annoying to have tens of thousands of people who are like "I don't know, maybe a ruger's as good as a glock, mine's been good" then man, you don't remember what it was like when people seriously, genuinely, aggressively asserted you couldn't build a pistol frame out of plastic, or that we were all better off with Garands than ARs.
This isn't good, but it's the best it's ever been.
Yup, I remember growing up my dad had all the Duncan Long and Mel Tappan books. I have a copy of Tappan's Survival Guns that he gave me.
Imagine someone on the internet today advising people to buy a Ruger Mini-14 over a Colt LE6920 for SHTF. Given that back in the 70's/80's the AR market was not what it is today but prior to the '89 ban there were a lot of options for 5.56 rifles (Galil, FNC, Valmet, Daewoo, etc.).
Moose-Knuckle
02-28-16, 01:19
Also TV and movies didn't help.
I still cringed at this scene . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf8sC_1deyM
Thanks 26 and Steyr. Never knew. I don't have a sling for mine and any MP5 I've ever messed with just had the two point.
I doubt that I shall sling my HK as it's a collector/once in a while shooter.
I'll admit I sorta bought into the bottle opener bit because of Chevy Chase but didn't see how it was possible having one in my hands and not wanting to jack up my rifle
On the MP5 the same sling clip is on the magazine well, not the forearm. The bottle opener is more of a Galil ARM thing, but I suppose you could probably do it with the bipod channel in the forearm.
Does it have to be one or the other? Because some of us have a hard time choosing just one career path and I feel like if I'm gifted in a couple of areas, I should be able to pursue that.
Obviously, there is s wide range between the two. I meant no offense, and I'm not sure how you Canucks handle your gun journalism, anyway.
But...
I've seen a positive review of hi-point pistols on G&A TV...a positive review of the "big, tough" Countersniper Optics Crusader in G&A magazine (photo on the cover, no less)...and the "Golden Bullseye" awarded to a Remington shotgun in American Rifleman Magazine, with a g-damned RECALL for it printed on the very next page. A safety recall at that.
I'd still prefer a person engage in that, instead of shitting on a police car.
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misanthropist
02-28-16, 02:34
No, I'm purely kidding around. I'm essentially impossible to offend. I just thought it was a good chance to make the joke.
No, I'm purely kidding around. I'm essentially impossible to offend. I just thought it was a good chance to make the joke.
Haha...my bad. Hard to get context sometimes. :)
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Actually, I think gLoCk is the perfect example of this phenomenon. Not calling anyone out or trying to turn this into a gLoCk hate thread.
I'm a well known gLoCk hater, obviously not because I read they suck in the Internet or YouTube.
I won't go into the reasons why they suck and derail this thread, let's just say they usually work, but are no more reliable than 95% of the other polymer pistols on the market. As long as you are willing to spend more, you can turn it into a decent pistol. Money that could be put toward a better pistol out of the box.
Am I an idiot for not owning and hating gLoCk?
Some would probably say yes, but I don't really care. There are so many better polymer options on the market and I own examples of most of them.
Eurodriver
02-28-16, 09:47
Actually, I think gLoCk is the perfect example of this phenomenon. Not calling anyone out or trying to turn this into a gLoCk hate thread.
I'm a well known gLoCk hater, obviously not because I read they suck in the Internet or YouTube.
I won't go into the reasons why they suck and derail this thread, let's just say they usually work, but are no more reliable than 95% of the other polymer pistols on the market. As long as you are willing to spend more, you can turn it into a decent pistol. Money that could be put toward a better pistol out of the box.
Am I an idiot for not owning and hating gLoCk?
Some would probably say yes, but I don't really care. There are so many better polymer options on the market and I own examples of most of them.
Biting my tongue so hard right now...
Don Robison
02-28-16, 09:57
Agree with the article to a certain degree, but the gun "community" has always been rife with retards, idiots and morons. Those who take the Nutnfancy youtube types serious would be the same regardless of Nutnfancy and his ilk. If youtube only allowed the likes of Defoor, Lamb, Proctor et. al. the same people who watch them, attend their classes, and take them serious would still be the only ones doing so. Some folks just can't help themselves and are attracted to mediocrity with the easy answer.
Biting my tongue so hard right now...
Ha! You won't be the only one.
I disagree with most of what is written in that link. Primarily because it wreaks of exclusivity and arrogance.
The hobbyists are gun owners too and we need everyone we can get in order to keep the grabbers at bay.
Are some of them obnoxious? Yes, but so are a select few of the SME crowd.
Everyone started somewhere.......just saying.
I agree. That there are more people talking and consequently a higher chaff:wheat ratio is a sign of increasing popularity among the masses. I am happy to sort through the information not fitting of my needs. I'm just glad that gun ownership, including black rifles, and shooting are more mainstream.
Moose-Knuckle
02-29-16, 02:29
. . . or trying to turn this into a gLoCk hate thread.
Well sir you didn't try hard enough.
Am I an idiot for not owning and hating gLoCk?
Some would probably say yes, but I don't really care.
And as a GLOCK owner I really don't care that someone with the handle "HKGuns" doesn't like GLOCKs.
firefighter37
02-29-16, 05:21
I am in full agreement with this guy. The internet has completely ruined the vetting process of gear/tactics reviews. I have seen a few guys that I enjoy watching, but I watch them for entertainment value or to figure out if xxx works with yyy. A good example is twangnbang and Hickok45. Purely entertainment factor, but when making a purchase (the Mueller APV for my .22 with Twangnbang comes to mind) I can see the items in action. But I'm certainly not taking Hickok's word for it that whatever gun he got for free from Buds Gun Shop is the latest and greatest because it can hit some steel plates.
Youtube sucks balls. Unfortunately, stupid people watch stupid people so these guys get tens of thousands of views. There's a guy here who acts like some hot shot NFA suppressor guru - he's a ****ing firefighter. A firefighter. His job is grocery shopping, washing trucks, and taking elderly women to the hospital for hand pain. Yet all my friends failed college too so they went to FF school and know the guy. I constantly have to hear about this guy doing this and that and how cool all his gear is and all the shoots he has. That's awesome - I'm glad he has fun. But they take it a step further and base all of their purchases on shit he says. Bitch, he hasn't BTDT. You're buying equipment on some hypothetical SHTF scenario, and taking equipment advice from a fireman. What does a firefighter with a youtube channel know about a two way range?
Useful idiots though - he gets the neckbeards and mouth breathers interested in NFA toys. The more of those, the easier/cheaper they are to get and it's win-win. I just bite my tongue when I'm at the range and they ask me for advice. That reminds me...I have to post a funny story to the dumbest shit overheard in a gun store thread...
Hey man why all the firefighter hate? Maybe he was in the military before he was a fireman...
Eurodriver
02-29-16, 07:20
Hey man why all the firefighter hate? Maybe he was in the military before he was a fireman...
1) There's a lot of reason to hate fire departments (racial and gender quotas, lying to the public in order to continue stealing taxpayer dollars, fire code inspections that violate the 4th amendment, unions, general douchebaggery) but I like to hate on firefighters simply because no one else does.
2) He isn't prior service.
but I like to hate on firefighters simply because no one else does.
Apparently you don't hang around many cops - 1) firefighters; 2) troopers; 3) feds.
Although pretty much good natured. As in 'Hey, lets all pile in the $500,00 pumper that really gets used once a year, and run down to the Northwest Y and grab a workout.'
The firearms world isn't alone in this phenomenon. Just look up "stance" in the automotive world.
While I don't hate FFers, I do look down on them.
That ,however ,hasn't precluded me from dropping a dook in their bathroom, joining in on a Halo match, and eating some BBQ and mooching sodas.
firefighter37
02-29-16, 12:33
1) There's a lot of reason to hate fire departments (racial and gender quotas, lying to the public in order to continue stealing taxpayer dollars, fire code inspections that violate the 4th amendment, unions, general douchebaggery) but I like to hate on firefighters simply because no one else does.
2) He isn't prior service.
You sound butthurt. Did you not get hired by a fire department or something?
FWIW I don't really look down on them.
It seems like a skate (to be fair it really does) until a really, really bad structure happens then it really is rough.
Still....I've yet to see a firehouse that didn't have a decent weight set, video game rig, stocked kitchen, etc but...hey, I also don't want mesothelioma or to die in a fire.
wildcard600
02-29-16, 13:07
The firearms world isn't alone in this phenomenon. Just look up "stance" in the automotive world.
Yep, I had to stop going to Jeep forums unless I needed some tech info because of the idiocy. It's good to get more people interested in Guns/offroad/racing but that unfortunately means a much higher doucheclown ratio.
firefighter37
02-29-16, 13:31
FWIW I don't really look down on them.
It seems like a skate (to be fair it really does) until a really, really bad structure happens then it really is rough.
Still....I've yet to see a firehouse that didn't have a decent weight set, video game rig, stocked kitchen, etc but...hey, I also don't want mesothelioma or to die in a fire.
Yup, its true, its also true that we have the highest instances of cancer. We also run medical calls when there are no fires, at least on my department. Its a skate job, right up until it isn't....
MountainRaven
02-29-16, 13:49
FWIW I don't really look down on them.
It seems like a skate (to be fair it really does) until a really, really bad structure happens then it really is rough.
Still....I've yet to see a firehouse that didn't have a decent weight set, video game rig, stocked kitchen, etc but...hey, I also don't want mesothelioma or to die in a fire.
I can see how one might feel that way about full-time, professional firefighters.
But shit's pretty far from skating for volunteer firefighters.
400+ lb. dude has a heart attack and the EMTs can't physically move him? Firefighters have to go in and put him on a gurney and carry him to the ambulance.
Guy has a heart attack at his winter home in the mountains and the ambulance can't get there because of the snow and terrain? Firefighters get to drive up and bring their ass to the ambulance.
Semi-truck jack knifes in a pass? Firefighters get to pull the survivors out - and stand around with signs instructing passing traffic to slow down - and then a rubber-necker will cause another accident.
Wildlands fire? Firefighters get to jump in their 6x6 fire truck and start driving up the mountains. And 90% of the time, it's not a fire, it's clouds or fog or a friggin' coffee brewery.
Trailer park meth lab goes up? Firefighters! Volunteer firefighters. From the county. Because even though the city surrounds the park on all sides, the park isn't technically in the city.
And these things happen on weekends. At 2 in the morning. Whenever. And the next day, they're back to their regular 9-to-5s, just with a double ration of coffee/tea/Monster/Rip-It/whatever.
And around here, the volunteer departments usually show up to fires in the city before the city fire department does, too. So, yeah. Professional firefighters. F___ those guys. Volunteers are cool, though.
;)
I can see how one might feel that way about full-time, professional firefighters.
But shit's pretty far from skating for volunteer firefighters.
400+ lb. dude has a heart attack and the EMTs can't physically move him? Firefighters have to go in and put him on a gurney and carry him to the ambulance.
Guy has a heart attack at his winter home in the mountains and the ambulance can't get there because of the snow and terrain? Firefighters get to drive up and bring their ass to the ambulance.
Semi-truck jack knifes in a pass? Firefighters get to pull the survivors out - and stand around with signs instructing passing traffic to slow down - and then a rubber-necker will cause another accident.
Wildlands fire? Firefighters get to jump in their 6x6 fire truck and start driving up the mountains. And 90% of the time, it's not a fire, it's clouds or fog or a friggin' coffee brewery.
Trailer park meth lab goes up? Firefighters! Volunteer firefighters. From the county. Because even though the city surrounds the park on all sides, the park isn't technically in the city.
And these things happen on weekends. At 2 in the morning. Whenever. And the next day, they're back to their regular 9-to-5s, just with a double ration of coffee/tea/Monster/Rip-It/whatever.
And around here, the volunteer departments usually show up to fires in the city before the city fire department does, too. So, yeah. Professional firefighters. F___ those guys. Volunteers are cool, though.
;)
I both agree and disagree with all of that at the same time.
Like, some of the most properly equipped and knowledgeable guys were full time. But then some were dealing dope or being uppity assholes or on roids.
And the volley guys were sloppy and wear the same nasty ass shirt to waffle house everyday but yet were more dedicated and had more wherewithal and I'm like "Why are you not doing this for money?!"
It's a mixed bag. But probably not germane to gun magazines sucking so bad.
FWIW I don't really look down on them.
It seems like a skate (to be fair it really does) until a really, really bad structure happens then it really is rough.
Still....I've yet to see a firehouse that didn't have a decent weight set, video game rig, stocked kitchen, etc but...hey, I also don't want mesothelioma or to die in a fire.
Probably poor form to be disparaging of anyone who goes into harms way regardless of frequency.
When you are upside down in your burning vehicle and these guys actually come in after you, I don't care if they've been sipping latte's poolside all damn day.
No different than a cop who has been running traffic enforcement all day then has to get into it at the local donut shop because some kids walked in with shotguns and started randomly shooting folks. I really don't care what the cop was doing at 2pm, I care what he is doing right now.
And if he's the type to go where bad people are doing bad things and try and save the good people stuck in that situation, then I only hope he spent part of his day sitting down somewhere sipping latte's and getting his head right for the big game.
In general it's friendly ribbing.
Like Army and Navy guys.
Ticket writers, hose draggers, and ambulance drivers (seriously...it takes the piss out of an EMT or Paramedic if you call them an "ambulance driver)
Because truth be told having BTDT, all three are gonna be on scene if shit goes down.
Gonna see the same shit just with different jobs to do. Popo rags on FF and EMS for getting to "sleep on duty" but while a 10 or 12 hour day can be long; it is hard getting 8 hours consistently knowing at any moment you'll get a call.
EMS gets exposed to cooties, FFers get exposed to cancer and burns, and popo get exposed to gunfire, stabbings, and...
All three get to hear the dignified pleas of "BRING HIM BACK JESUS BRING HIM BACK JESUS OH JESUS AAAHH JESUS!"
Which, as we all know, NEVER gets old or makes you want to bash someone with a report holder.
But yeah there's friendly ribbing and being kinda dickish.
Sounds like inter-service rivalry....Lots of respect on both sides with a heavy dose of ribbing on both sides.
But yeah there's friendly ribbing and being kinda dickish.
Carry on.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-29-16, 20:14
The firefighter in question knows more about NFA than almost any Tier 1 SOF guy. Who cares what they do, clearly he owns, shoots, and goes to more dealer expo's than any of us do.
The real thing ruining the gun industry: when we eat our own.
MountainRaven
02-29-16, 21:25
The firefighter in question knows more about NFA than almost any Tier 1 SOF guy. Who cares what they do, clearly he owns, shoots, and goes to more dealer expo's than any of us do.
The real thing ruining the gun industry: when we eat our own.
To be fair, some of these people deserve to be et. Like 300 lb. dudes open-carrying their Tapco'd SKS at Starbucks.
That being said, yes, AK purists eating AK practitioners. AK guys eating AR guys, AR guys eating AK guys. M14 and M1 Garand guys eating AK and AR guys. Practical/tactical guys eating collectors. Nevermind Fudds, blueblood shotgun shooters and upland bird hunters, &c. Folks smack-talking Recoil and guys rocking SR-15s and Arc'Teryx, and guys smack-talking Guns & Ammo and guys carrying WASRs and Condor. This sort of thing happens way too much.
I think if you believe the internet has ruined anything to do with the propagation of gun knowledge, you don't remember what it was like before the internet.
This ^.
RIP and all that, but one name should be enough to make you want to stay with the current sources of info we have, even if that includes some idiot internet guru's vs. the way it use to be.
Charlie Cutshaw.
I swear to God, the last decade of his articles I believe were the results of some sort of made up game by him and the Florence AL SWAT Team. They either had a dart board with words like "Game Changer" "Super Versatile" "Put through it's paces" "Hard Hitter"....... in the scoring sections on it and what the entire SWAT Team shot with one throw each is what descriptive words he would use for that given article; or it was some early form of beer pong for the with those same catch phrases written on red solo cups. Poor Hal Howard (sorry if you are a member dude, no harm meant) was pictured in nearly every article for that last 5 years firing every different rifle with the same clip on NVG and IR laser, or thermal clip on and weapon light. It didn't matter if it was a 10-22, it would be decked out with a PVS-27, X300, and DBAL.
In general it's friendly ribbing.
Like Army and Navy guys.
Ticket writers, hose draggers, and ambulance drivers (seriously...it takes the piss out of an EMT or Paramedic if you call them an "ambulance driver)
Because truth be told having BTDT, all three are gonna be on scene if shit goes down.
Gonna see the same shit just with different jobs to do. Popo rags on FF and EMS for getting to "sleep on duty" but while a 10 or 12 hour day can be long; it is hard getting 8 hours consistently knowing at any moment you'll get a call.
EMS gets exposed to cooties, FFers get exposed to cancer and burns, and popo get exposed to gunfire, stabbings, and...
All three get to hear the dignified pleas of "BRING HIM BACK JESUS BRING HIM BACK JESUS OH JESUS AAAHH JESUS!"
Which, as we all know, NEVER gets old or makes you want to bash someone with a report holder.
But yeah there's friendly ribbing and being kinda dickish.
They really love Ditch Dr around here BTW...
Eurodriver
03-06-16, 16:26
You sound butthurt. Did you not get hired by a fire department or something?
Yes. This is exactly what happened. I went through fire academy on my own dime as I had no other options in life than to hang out in a firehouse with guys that have homosexual tendencies, and I didn't get hired so I'm extremely bitter.
Now I just have a DD214 that says "Marine Corps" and swim in cash paid for by SEC filers. My life sucks.
The firefighter in question knows more about NFA than almost any Tier 1 SOF guy. Who cares what they do, clearly he owns, shoots, and goes to more dealer expo's than any of us do.
The real thing ruining the gun industry: when we eat our own.
Fam, I'm sure the dudes who work at Silencer Shop know a lot about silencers...so what? Check out what happens when certain SMEs on M4C hit him up about what happens to his splits, tactics, etc and all you hear are crickets.
Maybe its personal to me because all my buddies that are FFs are super into guns and gear but none of those ****s have sand in their boots despite all being more than capable. It seems all the vets I know went to the LE side and to them their firearm is a tool. They want an AR and their Glock and they want to know how to operate it proficiently and spend the rest of their time getting pussy.
My FF buddies spend all day talking about what gear they need to take on the Muslims who will invade or the BLM rioters. No training mentality whatsoever, and some really whack concepts of what goes down in a gunfight. These guys all own NV but when I try to get a group together to go to Telluric they say that's "Lame" and would rather spend that money on more guns. I have met the "firefighter in question" and he's the exact same way.
Back to sentence #1. You might know your products, but when mother****ers start talking about you like you know what two way ranges are like I get irritated. Because you could have chosen to know what a two way range is like, but you chose to spend your time grocery shopping and making videos.
And that's the whole point of this thread, really. Guys like NutnFancy making youtube videos and people think they're experts when they've just got time and a good video camera.
Euro is colored by his experience and is seemingly an A-Hole magnet.
FFers get more time to shoot their personal guns. Popo don't.
I'll say that if I can't stand in the rain for hours on end with it; I don't want it.
I like my solitary 1911 because, meh, I do. But guys who saddle up with one and don't oil it religiously don't fare well and are usually retarded. Same for dudes who had went out and bought Sigs with their own money. I had a West German Sig and it surface rusted for literally no good reason. My Vertec never did that.
Meh...I like Collapsible stocks here and there but any new builds will have A1 fixed stocks or the lighter PRS or something.
Shit that works. There's stuff I want just to have but my "killing guns" are pretty ugly and scuffed. And boring.
Preparedness is one thing but dudes putting up pics of them in plate carriers C clamping ARs when likely they'll never have to draw a bead on someone is gay.
Especially in LE, it's a lot less "Fvck yeah get some!" and a lot more "Aw shit, not this again.....goddamit"
Meh whatever, I'm at a point where my guns are just tools and a lot of fun has gone out. Except .22. Right now I'm just trying to get glasses for my ECC.
Eurodriver
03-06-16, 17:42
That is the truth ;)
But I put myself out there so it's all good. Mad love for FFs ;)
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