View Full Version : Crooked FSB. Send back?
MisterWilson
08-17-08, 22:13
So I've got this rifle that has a slightly canted front sight block. While I don't shoot past 200, and it's still good enough for that, it bugs the everliving hell out of me. It also takes a pretty good bit of adjustment to get it zeroed.
Is this worth sending back to the manufacturer?
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q252/mastersqurm/DSC09091.jpg
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q252/mastersqurm/DSC09094.jpg
Also, when it's canted like this, as far as I can tell it was drilled improperly at the factory and isn't anything that can be fixed easily.
(If at all)
Should I just get over it or try and send it back? Am I making a mountain out of a molehill? It works for the ranges I shoot it at but it's still not right.
Is this worth sending back to the manufacturer?
Send it back if it bugs you.
Is it just me or have canted FSB been a huge quality control issue lately?
Personally I'd send it back if it bothers you...and obviously it does. You know what to do! :)
OldNavyGuy
08-18-08, 00:22
a story told to me by an old time gunsmith who done a lot of work on U.S. and foreign military weapons, a guy brought in an old SP-1 and told the GS it shoots too far left, the GS looked at it and, "said that's an easy fix, your front sight is canted.., i'll be right back", he went to the back of the shop which is out of sight of customers, he clamped the barrel in a brass barrel vice and whacked it with a rawhide mallet a few times till it was lined up, then he picked up his big steel mall and whacked his anvil a few times, then walked back out front with the upper in one hand and the mall in the other, and said, "there, that'll fix'er, no charge", the guy was about to faint.
soooo, send it back or whack the FSB to align it, your call !!
theJanitor
08-18-08, 01:27
who's the maufacturer? does the barrel shoot well otherwise? if it's a great shooter, i'd think twice about sending it back.
i had an LMT that shot great but the FSB was canted. i just used it as an excuse to change to a shaved FSB and a longer larue handguard.
+1 If it shoots good, leave it be. I have a factory Colt M16A2 take-off that shoots like a dream but took more windage than that; it's my favorite upper.
If you paid good money for it there is an expectation that you get what you paid for. Settling for inferior crap is how we end up dealing with Bushamsters, DPMS, etc....If I company is going to sell a product and make claims the only way to hold them to it is to make them fix or repair the item. This will hit them in the pocket book and maybe they will realize that it is cheaper to do it right the first time.
What if you bought a pistol from a local gunshop and you paid the "gunsmith" money for a set of night sights and installation and they were crooked? Would you just let it go because you are "close enough" when you shoot? The rifle can't really be a "good shooter" can it if the FSB is crooked?
Magic Sauce
08-18-08, 05:30
Send it back, and make them do it right.
BravoCompanyUSA
08-18-08, 07:06
The "windage" on a battle rifle's iron sights is not for "the wind" (unless you are at Camp Perry). The adjustment is there to get your zero.
Mil-spec is approx 21 clicks on an 600m sight, left or right
More info here, see last few posts. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=14)
RogerinTPA
08-18-08, 07:33
It seems that way. It started with the FSBs for AKs from certain companies and appears to be creeping into the AR side of the house. Maybe do to the high demand and the upcoming election, "some" manufacturers are increasing production and skimping on QC.:mad:
Is it just me or have canted FSB been a huge quality control issue lately?
Personally I'd send it back if it bothers you...and obviously it does. You know what to do! :)
While I don't shoot past 200, and it's still good enough for that,
If it'll shoot straight to 200, then it'll shoot straight past that. However, I can't see your pics. If you have to dial it very far off of mechanical zero, I'd have them make it right.
If you paid good money for it there is an expectation that you get what you paid for. Settling for inferior crap is how we end up dealing with Bushamsters, DPMS, etc....If I company is going to sell a product and make claims the only way to hold them to it is to make them fix or repair the item. This will hit them in the pocket book and maybe they will realize that it is cheaper to do it right the first time.
What if you bought a pistol from a local gunshop and you paid the "gunsmith" money for a set of night sights and installation and they were crooked? Would you just let it go because you are "close enough" when you shoot? The rifle can't really be a "good shooter" can it if the FSB is crooked?
+1
All to often we "settle" - I think we've gotten soft generally. I don't care who made that upper, if it's not right - it's not right. Building uppers is not rocket science, (I'm not saying mass production is easy - just not rocket science). To let something like that get past QC - however slight it may be - is totally unacceptable.
RogerinTPA
08-18-08, 08:16
I'd say, hold the manufacturer accountable with a letter saying that you have discussed this problem on different forums without using their name, and everyone agrees that its a QC problem. Maybe that will wake them up. If no or slow response, post their name so others can avoid them.
The FSB does not look canted to me and the Troy rear doesn't look to far over to me (as the military allows for 21 clicks in either direction).
C4
When reinstalling a FSB does it automatically go back into the exact same position or do you have to some how line it up perfectly again?
When reinstalling a FSB does it automatically go back into the exact same position or do you have to some how line it up perfectly again?
No, not always.
C4
MisterWilson
08-19-08, 08:47
Really?
I thought that the pins holding it wouldn't really let it wander one way or the other.
Really?
I thought that the pins holding it wouldn't really let it wander one way or the other.
You get it close, but might have to give it a few whacks to get in the correct position.
C4
MisterWilson
08-19-08, 08:58
Well hell's bells, I wish someone had told me about that when I was reassembling the damn thing...
Well hell's bells, I wish someone had told me about that when I was reassembling the damn thing...
If you would have asked, I would have told you. ;)
Generally speaking, most mis-alignment is becuase the pins were not installed back to their orig. position. If they are and are and the FSB is still off, you take a rubber mallet and smack the FSB till it is back in position.
C4
MisterWilson
08-19-08, 09:55
That wouldn't damage the upper receiver?
Mr. Wilson,
I do not believe that it will because the barrel will have already been torqued down and the only thing that will theoretically move would be the FSB.
That wouldn't damage the upper receiver?
MisterWilson
08-19-08, 10:34
Also, wouldn't a slight knock in the other direction put it right back where it was before?
That wouldn't damage the upper receiver?
No. Just as an FYI, this is how all manufacturers get FSB's straight. ;)
C4
Also, wouldn't a slight knock in the other direction put it right back where it was before?
No as you really have to hit it to get it move a hair.
C4
So you just reinstalled it crooked? So if I take off my FSB and reinstall it how can I make sure it's spot on? Are there notches in the barrel that aren't supposed to let the FSB wonder?
No as you really have to hit it to get it move a hair.
C4
Grant,
Could you describe this "whacking it with a rubber mallet" method of aligning the FSB better? How are you bracing the rifle when you do this? Do you really just hit the FSB whichever way you want the front sight adjustment?
I have to dial in 5-6 clicks to get my rifle "zeroed," which I don't think is a big deal, though it does bug me a bit. If I could easily fix it (I do have a rubber mallet), then I would.
Ben
Grant,
Could you describe this "whacking it with a rubber mallet" method of aligning the FSB better? How are you bracing the rifle when you do this? Do you really just hit the FSB whichever way you want the front sight adjustment?
I have to dial in 5-6 clicks to get my rifle "zeroed," which I don't think is a big deal, though it does bug me a bit. If I could easily fix it (I do have a rubber mallet), then I would.
Ben
I'm definitely not as knowledgable as Grant, hell not even close (at all), but I can assure you that he's going to recommend that you DO NOT try to adjust your FSB if you're only 5-6 clicks off. That's a 1/3rd of what the military considers in-spec (20 or 21 clicks I believe).
But yes, the barrel is braced and it's literally a knock with a rubber mallet. It's not pretty but it works.
Grant,
Could you describe this "whacking it with a rubber mallet" method of aligning the FSB better? How are you bracing the rifle when you do this? Do you really just hit the FSB whichever way you want the front sight adjustment?
I have to dial in 5-6 clicks to get my rifle "zeroed," which I don't think is a big deal, though it does bug me a bit. If I could easily fix it (I do have a rubber mallet), then I would.
Ben
I have the upper secured and then simply hit the FSB to the left or right (depending on which way it needs to be moved).
About the only time I would "adjust" my FSB is when I was more than 21 clicks off. In your case of 5-6 clicks, I would not mess with a thing.
C4
OK. This is what I thought. I wasn't very excited about hammering my new rifle, anyway... I had visions of myself shooting five shot strings and whacking the FSB back and forth between strings, trying to get it perfect!
BTW, my Springfield M1A has front and rear sights that are both adjustable for "windage." The front sight had to be almost all the way to one edge to "zero" it. No big deal.
Oddly enough, my 65-year-old M1 Carbine's sights have always been dead center...
Ben
MisterWilson
08-21-08, 11:56
"They sure don't make them like they used to..."
Army Chief
08-21-08, 12:22
"They sure don't make them like they used to..."
I'm not sure that they even can, brother. 60+ years ago, skilled labor was relatively inexpensive, and technology was costly, so the weapons of the era (whether commercial or from a military arsenal) got plenty of bench time under very competent hands. Today, technology is relatively inexpensive, and skilled labor is costly, so most production weapons simply don't spend as much time on the bench as they did a generation ago.
A slightly canted FSB may not be a show stopper from a production/technical specification point of view, but this is precisely the sort of thing that a master riflesmith of a bygone era would have never let leave his shop until it was right. You can still get this level of attention in the firearms world, of course, but the price of entry these days seems to start somewhere around the $2k mark -- whether you're talking about a 1911 from Yost or an AR from Noveske. That's not to say that there aren't rock-solid production grade options these days, but clearly, the times have changed.
Chief
FWIW, I don't think it's declining standards of craftsmanship as much as a different design. The front sight bases on my M1A and M1 Carbine slide over splines machined into the barrel lengthwise - there's no way to mis-align the front sight if the barrel is machined correctly. Drilling across the barrel of the AR just seems like a less precise way to do it.
Why they don't make windage-adjustable front sights for ARs, I don't know...
Ben
MisterWilson
08-21-08, 15:23
FWIW, I don't think it's declining standards of craftsmanship as much as a different design. The front sight bases on my M1A and M1 Carbine slide over splines machined into the barrel lengthwise - there's no way to mis-align the front sight if the barrel is machined correctly. Drilling across the barrel of the AR just seems like a less precise way to do it.
Why they don't make windage-adjustable front sights for ARs, I don't know...
Ben
Because as long as the taper pins are drilled correctly you don't need it. As for the splines in an M1A, if drilled incorrectly you'd be in the same boat.
(Minus that whole "Look at me & my adjustable windage front sight" bit)
I recently discovered that the FSB on my Rock River Arms AR-15 was canted enough to be annoying when looking down the length of the rifle. I called RRA and they said to send it in and they'd look at it. About 3-4 weeks later, I got the rifle back with a very brief note saying that they didn't find anything wrong with it and calling my LaRue fixed rear BUIS "sloppy". Needless to say, I wasn't happy. But rather than struggling with RRA for several more months, I decided to just send the rifle to ADCO to have the FSB shaved and to have a 10" LaRue FF handguard installed. I also bought a Troy flip-up front sight off the EE here. Anyway, I won't be buying another RRA rifle since the reason I went with them in the first place was for their supposedly good customer service. I guess it's Bushmaster or LMT for my next rifle. :mad:
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