What would it take to make your own ammunition plant?

[AnthonyCumia]

Been watching The Walking Dead and I want to know, what would it take to be able to make your own cases, primers, and smokeless powder?

Could it be done?

What is needed?

Honest questions.

[MegademiC]

Companies to provide raw materials, sheet copper, possibly steel, powder, primer compound raw materials, lead, etc.

Then you need presses, a chemical plant one for primer, one for powder, a bullet manufacturing plant, and an assembly plant. You then need workers, and QA people along with engineers, and managers to run everything.

Can it be done, yes companies exist.

In an end of the world scenario? No.

[Big A]

A ton of start up capital...

[nova3930]

Companies to provide raw materials, sheet copper, possibly steel, powder, primer compound raw materials, lead, etc.

Then you need presses, a chemical plant one for primer, one for powder, a bullet manufacturing plant, and an assembly plant. You then need workers, and QA people along with engineers, and managers to run everything.

Can it be done, yes companies exist.

In an end of the world scenario? No.

Yep. The more complex and specialized production processes get, the more efficient they get, because everyone along the way is VERY good at what they do. The flip side to that is those same production processes are much more fragile end to end. In the end of the world scenario, ammunition production is just one thing that you could potentially lose some or all of the necessary knowledge and expertise for.

[MountainRaven]

If you're worried about the sort of end of the world scenario where everybody on earth stops going to work (which isn't very likely), I would recommend learning how to manufacture black powder, acquiring bullet molds, a sword or axe or longknife, and a variety of flintlock firearms.

If you can manufacture percussion caps, the rest is comparatively easy, but you need sufficient infrastructure to keep your plant supplied with raw materials to manufacture powder, primers, casings, and bullets.

Of course, you still need a basic infrastructure to produce black powder, lead bullets, paper or cloth patches, and flints in quantity.

If you can't manage that... learn to make bows. Learn how to use bows. All you need is a knife and skill to manufacture bows. And the bow offers a number of tactical advantages over flintlocks and percussion firearms, including both their lack of report and their rate of fire. While the archer disappeared from Western European militaries relatively early, they remained in numbers in other militaries until the widespread availability of repeating firearms finally extinguished their last battlefield benefit.

ETA: Repeating firearms also "killed" weapons such as swords and lances, too.

[nova3930]

If you're worried about the sort of end of the world scenario where everybody on earth stops going to work (which isn't very likely), I would recommend learning how to manufacture black powder, acquiring bullet molds, a sword or axe or longknife, and a variety of flintlock firearms.


Start saving your piss to make black powder.....

[Firefly]

.....get rich and buy out Winchester and Tula.
Swim in ammo a la Scrooge McDuck.

[MountainRaven]

Start saving your piss to make black powder.....

And if the black powder business doesn't pan out, you can use it to bleach cloth white!

[mack7.62]

I read something not long ago that really made me think and that was how it would be next to impossible to make a pencil without modern infrastructure. Think about it, a simple piece of wood with a carbon core that costs pennies but no way to produce it without modern machinery.

[nova3930]

I read something not long ago that really made me think and that was how it would be next to impossible to make a pencil without modern infrastructure. Think about it, a simple piece of wood with a carbon core that costs pennies but no way to produce it without modern machinery.

Even if someone gives you all the machinery, do you have the knowledge to operate and maintain it. Nothing is as simple as pushing the "Start" button and letting things run.

That was my point above about complex systems being relatively fragile. When the Black Death killed half the population of Europe, people were not all that highly specialized. By and large people knew how to do a little of everything so that when half the people disappear, the institutional knowledge didn't disappear. Even your skilled trades were protected. Yeah you might have lost half your black smiths but every black smith knows how to do basically the same stuff.

So much of the modern industrial base is supported by knowledge that relatively few individuals hold, that if you had another Black Death scale event, you might lose the working ability of that knowledge all together....

[MountainRaven]

Even if someone gives you all the machinery, do you have the knowledge to operate and maintain it. Nothing is as simple as pushing the "Start" button and letting things run.

That was my point above about complex systems being relatively fragile. When the Black Death killed half the population of Europe, people were not all that highly specialized. By and large people knew how to do a little of everything so that when half the people disappear, the institutional knowledge didn't disappear. Even your skilled trades were protected. Yeah you might have lost half your black smiths but every black smith knows how to do basically the same stuff.

So much of the modern industrial base is supported by knowledge that relatively few individuals hold, that if you had another Black Death scale event, you might lose the working ability of that knowledge all together....

The Black Death also drove up the price of labor, making it so that more automated processes of production were required to keep costs low enough for people to afford to buy things. Part of why plate replaced maille. (The fact that plate is a superior form of armor helped, too.)

[AnthonyCumia]

Even if someone gives you all the machinery, do you have the knowledge to operate and maintain it. Nothing is as simple as pushing the "Start" button and letting things run.

That was my point above about complex systems being relatively fragile. When the Black Death killed half the population of Europe, people were not all that highly specialized. By and large people knew how to do a little of everything so that when half the people disappear, the institutional knowledge didn't disappear. Even your skilled trades were protected. Yeah you might have lost half your black smiths but every black smith knows how to do basically the same stuff.

So much of the modern industrial base is supported by knowledge that relatively few individuals hold, that if you had another Black Death scale event, you might lose the working ability of that knowledge all together....

What if you had the machinery, and the know saved on computers, what would it take? And could the average survivor make what is it need to run it to make ammo?

[MegademiC]

Rolling copper to the right specs is a whole science in and of itself, so is mining it, and purifying it. Same applies to powder, you need to harvest raw materials, then react them into the raw stock chemicals, then manufacture them into smokeless powder.

Each item is so complex no one could learn the entire process in depth and detail, in a single lifetime.

[Dienekes]

Here's a thought--just how capable/resilient/handy is the average person today? Even with all known information digitally stashed someplace, how many people could get up to speed enough to, say, survive a year?

I can do some stuff but there's a lot of things that are essentially plain old magic to me. Like programming my TV/VHS/DVD player.

We can't ALL be warlords.

I think I'll go sharpen my sword now.

[AnthonyCumia]

Here's a thought--just how capable/resilient/handy is the average person today? Even with all known information digitally stashed someplace, how many people could get up to speed enough to, say, survive a year?

I can do some stuff but there's a lot of things that are essentially plain old magic to me. Like programming my TV/VHS/DVD player.

We can't ALL be warlords.

I think I'll go sharpen my sword now.

Well r vs K selection.

[_Stormin_]

Honestly, it would be far easier to simply stockpile a sufficient quantity of ammo for your weapons. It would set you back somewhere around $15,000 for 50,000 rounds of 5.56 and another $9500 for the same quantity of 9mm. Not everyone can run out and throw that on the AMEX, but it's one hell of a lot more efficient than trying to set up your own ammo manufacturing facility. Realistically, you don't even need to buy it all at once...

[nova3930]

What if you had the machinery, and the know saved on computers, what would it take? And could the average survivor make what is it need to run it to make ammo?

Written instructions go a long way but can't 100% substitute for experience, even indirect experience. That experience is the sum of people learning what works and what doesn't.

That's why when building a new complex item, like say an aircraft, even with experienced labor, you get a reduction in hours to produce with each unit you produce up to a certain minimum as the production line gains experience learning what works and what doesn't.

So basically you're talking about running a complex production line, with inexperienced labor and written instructions, well that's a recipe for spending a lot of time not doing much.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[MountainRaven]

Written instructions go a long way but can't 100% substitute for experience, even indirect experience. That experience is the sum of people learning what works and what doesn't.

That's why when building a new complex item, like say an aircraft, even with experienced labor, you get a reduction in hours to produce with each unit you produce up to a certain minimum as the production line gains experience learning what works and what doesn't.

So basically you're talking about running a complex production line, with inexperienced labor and written instructions, well that's a recipe for spending a lot of time not doing much.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

I think the experiences of guys trying to make things the way they were made 500 or 1000 years ago or more can be instructive in this regard: We have written records for how a lot of things were done. We have a scientific understanding of materials far superior to theirs. And yet we struggle to make things the way they did. It is only through rigorous experimentation, trial-and-error that we can begin to make some of the things that they made as well as they made them, with the same technologies that they had.

[Bubba FAL]

Black powder is relatively easy to make, doing so without blowing yourself up is another story. Still, not difficult if you keep in mind that you're dealing with an explosive. People have been making it for centuries. The hardest ingredient to procure is sulfur. Black powder can be utilized in many cartridges with varying degrees of success, so there's a good reason to keep a .45-70 or .30-30 in one's arsenal. Boxer primers can be recycled. It's tedious work, but there are items that can be made into a priming compound and used to recharge a primer (again, hardest part is keeping all of one's digits while doing so- it's an impact explosive, ya know).

As previously stated, you'd be better off with a flintlock muzzleloader, unless you need rapid rates of fire, then bow and arrow are king ('til you run out of arrows). As for projectiles, between the battery and wheel weights, the average vehicle contains a fair amount of lead, use safe handling practices to avoid brain damage/death when smelting/casting lead. If you've got a smoothbore muzzleloader, you don't necessarily need a lead projectile.

[JusticeM4]

It's very complex and takes a lot of capital and resources to make it work.

It would be better and more economical to buy and stock up on reloading supplies/equipment in a garage or barn.

[Campbell]

Lloyds of London...:cool:, I'm down for a couple cases-

[AnthonyCumia]

Black powder is relatively easy to make, doing so without blowing yourself up is another story. Still, not difficult if you keep in mind that you're dealing with an explosive. People have been making it for centuries. The hardest ingredient to procure is sulfur. Black powder can be utilized in many cartridges with varying degrees of success, so there's a good reason to keep a .45-70 or .30-30 in one's arsenal. Boxer primers can be recycled. It's tedious work, but there are items that can be made into a priming compound and used to recharge a primer (again, hardest part is keeping all of one's digits while doing so- it's an impact explosive, ya know).

As previously stated, you'd be better off with a flintlock muzzleloader, unless you need rapid rates of fire, then bow and arrow are king ('til you run out of arrows). As for projectiles, between the battery and wheel weights, the average vehicle contains a fair amount of lead, use safe handling practices to avoid brain damage/death when smelting/casting lead. If you've got a smoothbore muzzleloader, you don't necessarily need a lead projectile.

I have wondered why they do not use Air Guns to take down walkers around the walls.

[nova3930]

I have wondered why they do not use Air Guns to take down walkers around the walls.

How about just a spear from above. No ammo required. Knife + stick + duct tape = win

[AnthonyCumia]

How about just a spear from above. No ammo required. Knife + stick + duct tape = win

Requires to be up close...

[Iraqgunz]

Everyone should have stocked up on Samurai swords. Apparently Michonne has a monopoly on swords in the south.

[AnthonyCumia]

Everyone should have stocked up on Samurai swords. Apparently Michonne has a monopoly on swords in the south.

I wonder how much force it does to do what she does with them.

[Koshinn]

It's not just knowledge and skill that you need.

You need infrastructure. All that machinery and knowledge and manpower doesn't mean much if the only source of certain chemicals is in the other side of the continent or even the world.

In order for a factory to be worth it, you need raw materials. You need to get them out of the ground or recycle them, then transport them to you. Then likely refine them or otherwise process them before you can use it.

Even the pre industrialized world was heavily reliant on trade to produce anything of moderate complexity.



You're far better off stockpiling ammo. If you're trying to build a factory in the post apocalypse, it simply can't happen until a lot of other parts of society come back to life.

[AnthonyCumia]

Just the idea of running out of ammo, no resupply is just an terrifying idea.

[Koshinn]

Just the idea of running out of ammo, no resupply is just an terrifying idea.

Good thing a complete collapse of society is basically not going to happen unless a giant rock from space hits us or a supervolcano goes off. And if either happens, you'll likely be dead anyway.

[nova3930]

Requires to be up close...

Nope

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(weapon)

[usmcvet]

Honestly, it would be far easier to simply stockpile a sufficient quantity of ammo for your weapons. It would set you back somewhere around $15,000 for 50,000 rounds of 5.56 and another $9500 for the same quantity of 9mm. Not everyone can run out and throw that on the AMEX, but it's one hell of a lot more efficient than trying to set up your own ammo manufacturing facility. Realistically, you don't even need to buy it all at once...

I wish I had that money! :cool:


Everyone should have stocked up on Samurai swords. Apparently Michonne has a monopoly on swords in the south.

Seriously!

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab160/usmcvet0331/Makedonische_phalanx_zpszb5bxwof.png (http://s859.photobucket.com/user/usmcvet0331/media/Makedonische_phalanx_zpszb5bxwof.png.html)

I was reading the Guns of The South but misplaced my copy. Interesting read. I think they was an ammo manufacturing part of the book. http://www.amazon.com/The-Guns-South-Harry-Turtledove/dp/0345384687

[SteyrAUG]

Requires to be up close...

Not really.

https://pristineauction.s3.amazonaws.com/16/166444/main_2-The-Last-Samurai-Japanese-Yari-Spear-Movie-Prop-PA-LOA-PristineAuction.com.jpg

[Koshinn]

I wish I had that money! :cool:



Seriously!

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab160/usmcvet0331/Makedonische_phalanx_zpszb5bxwof.png (http://s859.photobucket.com/user/usmcvet0331/media/Makedonische_phalanx_zpszb5bxwof.png.html)

I was reading the Guns of The South but misplaced my copy. Interesting read. I think they was an ammo manufacturing part of the book. http://www.amazon.com/The-Guns-South-Harry-Turtledove/dp/0345384687

Lemme just grab a few hundred of my friends to make a sarissa phalanx and a few hundred more of my friends on horses to be the hammer to my anvil so I can deal with those pesky bandits trying to steal my can of beans.

By the end of Guns of the South, the Union is making AK rip-offs. But even Civil War-era America has orders of magnitude better access to raw materials and labor than pretty much anyone in a post-apocalyptic scenario. It's much more plausible for the Union to be making AKs and ammo than for the survivors in The Walking Dead to do the same.

[Firefly]

When the Apocalypse comes.....I'm gonna have frickin E-Tool

Because that's what's up

[The_War_Wagon]

What would it take to make your own ammunition plant?

Same as it takes to be a millionaire owner in NASCAR.









Start OUT as a MULTI-millionaire. :rolleyes: