View Full Version : Storm Chasing and LEO
thepatriot2705
02-29-16, 18:19
Hello all.
This thread mainly applies to LEO in tornado alley.
I chase storms as a hobby and have seen some outlandish behavior from other chasers. What should I know before I embark on another adventure this year? What is your opinion on storm chasers?
Interested to hear what LEOs in tornado alley have to say. Just a little while ago when the tornadoes struck DFW, a chaser stopped real fast to ask a man on the side of the road if he was ok, the guy tried to stab him. Whole thing caught on camera, very weird.
My concern is that your storm chasing "vehicle" is street legal. I will also be really pissed when I get called out for a search and rescue of a moron that intentionally put himself in front of a tornado.
I've encountered a few in my time. I saw a storm chaser standing on an overpass with his two children, ages 4 and 6. I voiced my concern about his children and he just did not get it. A tornado hit close by less than 15 minutes later.
Do what you wish with your own life, but don't risk the lives of your children.
Another thing to remember, "if it don't spin, don't call it in."
thepatriot2705
02-29-16, 22:35
I've encountered a few in my time. I saw a storm chaser standing on an overpass with his two children, ages 4 and 6. I voiced my concern about his children and he just did not get it. A tornado hit close by less than 15 minutes later.
Do what you wish with your own life, but don't risk the lives of your children.
Another thing to remember, "if it don't spin, don't call it in."
I'm a single bachelor, so no kids to worry about for me.
I usually report to NWS via Twitter. Tornadoes I report to NWS and 911.
As for the third poster. What do you mean by street legal? Most people chase in typical cars.
Some have light bars but the legality of that varies by state.
I'm talking about the homemade "mad max" looking "vehicles." I've also been ordered to send officers out in a driving rainstorm with about 10 feet of visibility during active tornado warnings, at night, to look for tornadoes that someone posted on Twitter. Mind you, NWS emergency broadcast is on the radio stating at the same time seek shelter and don't go outside looking for tornadoes because you can't see them at night. If you want to chase tornadoes on your own time fine; however, I draw the line when your "storm chasing" puts my officers in danger. I'll listen to the guys with the multi million dollar radars, not some guy posting on Twitter.
Generally most public safety agencies in 'Tornado Alley' have sufficient trained spotters - generally coordinated by the county director of emergency preparedness - that hobbyists don't provide much service.
I think the general consensus is that as long as you aren't endangering anyone but yourself have at it.
thepatriot2705
03-01-16, 01:53
I'm talking about the homemade "mad max" looking "vehicles." I've also been ordered to send officers out in a driving rainstorm with about 10 feet of visibility during active tornado warnings, at night, to look for tornadoes that someone posted on Twitter. Mind you, NWS emergency broadcast is on the radio stating at the same time seek shelter and don't go outside looking for tornadoes because you can't see them at night. If you want to chase tornadoes on your own time fine; however, I draw the line when your "storm chasing" puts my officers in danger. I'll listen to the guys with the multi million dollar radars, not some guy posting on Twitter.
I completely feel you. This is partially the reason i started this topic. There is a major problem with people seeking "social media fame." Even the NWS is questioning reports from chasers. Reed Timmer is a big factor in this. He started using terms like "extreme" and "mile wide wedge" and now even one reports tornadoes as such. Often times i see people on twitter saying "violent tornado" but the damage rating proves otherwise.
As for night time chasing, I'll chase but im not reporting anything unless its super obvious. Its so easy to mistake features at night. The fact you have had to send officers out at night in those conditions makes me worry for their safety as well. With your input, I will be even more cognizant of what I report.
I only chase at night if the terrain is flat and there is sufficient lightning.
Stay out of the response path for emergency services. Last one that hit town we couldn't even advance on the area affected due to the "pursuit of chasers" following the tornado and clogging the road.
Eurodriver
03-01-16, 05:59
This must be a Midwestern thing because Florida gets its fair share of tornadoes as well but I guess we have too many THOTs in bikinis to waste our time with such foolishness.
What is the point of chasing a tornado?
This must be a Midwestern thing because Florida gets its fair share of tornadoes as well but I guess we have too many THOTs in bikinis to waste our time with such foolishness.
What is the point of chasing a tornado?
To study them, usually. The legit chasers are typically meteorologists (Reed Timmer, for example), scientists, or people working in conjunction with them.
I don't understand why an untrained amateur would just jump in the car and start looking for twisters.
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Outlander Systems
03-01-16, 08:30
If the OP is serious, I would start here:
http://skywarn.org/skywarn-training/
To study them, usually. The legit chasers are typically meteorologists (Reed Timmer, for example), scientists, or people working in conjunction with them.
For the most part I think that is BS. You ever look at a map of all the doppler radars in the United States? Those give you a way better picture of whats happening (in terms of storm development) than someone on the ground.
For the most part the guy on the ground is able to go - 'oh wow look at the barn getting sucked into the eye' which is cool, but really not useful in terms of 'studying.'
What you see on the news is dumbed down for us common folk. Go to a site and play around - with this one you can track trucks on I-70:
http://radar.weather.gov/radar.php?rid=gld
First off, that's crazy
Second off, if you actually do this don't forget to blast Van Halen and record it
For the most part I think that is BS. You ever look at a map of all the doppler radars in the United States? Those give you a way better picture of whats happening (in terms of storm development) than someone on the ground.
For the most part the guy on the ground is able to go - 'oh wow look at the barn getting sucked into the eye' which is cool, but really not useful in terms of 'studying.'
What you see on the news is dumbed down for us common folk. Go to a site and play around - with this one you can track trucks on I-70:
http://radar.weather.gov/radar.php?rid=gld
Well, I'm no expert, obviously. But I do know that a hook echo on radar is not indicative of a tornado on the ground....only rotation.
Having lived in the path of these storms my entire life, I've observed the local weather gurus using spotters more and more, to determine if damage has occurred, and to report storms on the ground. I assume this is to enhance first responders effectiveness.
That's what they tell us, anyway.
ETA... Storms don't have gps, obviously. I assume the truck tracker does? Or are you saying the Wx radar can track them?
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JC5188 - Me too, Kansan. Helped train this guy: http://www.kansas.com/news/special-reports/article1003927.html
The radars are predictors, the ground spotters are confirmers and warners.
Without the radar's early warning the spotters wouldn't be in position.
Chasers really don't help the locals.
I agree with you on the radars.
I'm in OK, so we've seen a lot of the same storms.
As far as the chasers...I'll take your word for it then.
Also, I'm sorry about your Deputy. Y'all have a job that can be shitty at times, and you don't get enough credit for it IMO.
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thepatriot2705
03-01-16, 12:09
For the most part I think that is BS. You ever look at a map of all the doppler radars in the United States? Those give you a way better picture of whats happening (in terms of storm development) than someone on the ground.
For the most part the guy on the ground is able to go - 'oh wow look at the barn getting sucked into the eye' which is cool, but really not useful in terms of 'studying.'
What you see on the news is dumbed down for us common folk. Go to a site and play around - with this one you can track trucks on I-70:
http://radar.weather.gov/radar.php?rid=gld
You have no idea how radars work then. The original spotter groups started after the tri-state tornado. There is a perfectly legit reason for spotters/chasers. Radars can only see so much. At 100 miles from the radar, the beam is at 10,000 feet. You need ground truth. https://www.roc.noaa.gov/wsr88d/Images/WSR-88DCONUSCoverage2011.jpg
thepatriot2705
03-01-16, 12:10
I agree with you on the radars.
I'm in OK, so we've seen a lot of the same storms.
As far as the chasers...I'll take your word for it then.
Also, I'm sorry about your Deputy. Y'all have a job that can be shitty at times, and you don't get enough credit for it IMO.
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The chasers who travel the country, IMO, are not the problem. Its the yahoos (locals) who see a storm and try to find it. Usually they dont have a clue and drive like idiots.
thepatriot2705
03-01-16, 12:11
To study them, usually. The legit chasers are typically meteorologists (Reed Timmer, for example), scientists, or people working in conjunction with them.
I don't understand why an untrained amateur would just jump in the car and start looking for twisters.
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Reed Timmer claims to study them, but I have yet to see one paper with "data" he has supposedly "collected."
Reed Timmer claims to study them, but I have yet to see one paper with "data" he has supposedly "collected."
I actually have only ever heard him talk about spotting and reporting. I mentioned him as legit because he's a Ph.D in Meteorology, and he chases.
Josh Wurman would be an example of someone who studies them.
And, I have no idea of your background. The amateur chaser comment was just a generic observation, and not aimed at you.
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Reed Timmer claims to study them, but I have yet to see one paper with "data" he has supposedly "collected."
Not a Reed Timmer fan, or his counterparts. But I do see some value in them filming and even potentially some of the hi res vertical Doppler, sensor packages, etc.
I'm talking about the homemade "mad max" looking "vehicles."
Pet peeve...LEO need to learn how to look past appearances and focus more on behavior. Having been stopped multiple times solely for driving a street legal vehicle that is used both by civvy and non-tactical military usages... (It's a soft skinned vehicle that is best described as the bastard offspring of a vw minivan and a Hummer or unimog) Exterior appearances are just not an accurate predictor of criminal intent or behavior. IE: the minivan with people looking & acting suspicious is probably more of a risk than the clearly middle aged, pot bellied hobbiest headed for a car show in a vintage vehicle. Note: this is not an inspection/Street legality issue, its a misguided "see something, say something" mindset.
The same is true for pelican cases and ammo cans, I've had security guards at military bases and LEO ask to inspect them even when it's clear they are too small to carry a firearm, etc and yet let the much larger suitcases, diaper bags, and similar go without a second glance. ( my overnight suitcase is a pelican carryon sized roll around. I tell them they are happy to rummage through my dirty underwear). Routine traffic stop: "anything in the ammo can I need to be worried about?". Said can was in the back of a SUV 8 feet from where I was sitting.
I don't mind officers being alert or even asking the question. But if they are homing in on external appearances rather than looking deeper at behavior and context, they are going to miss something critical one day. Checking a small Pelican case, but not checking bags large enough to hold an AR or similar next to it is just silly. The DC shooter comes to mind, and other similar circumstances. The risk was from someone in a nondescript vehicle in non military attire.
If I ever have to do something tactical it'll be in a nondescript, well used Chrysler minivan, with my gear carried in diaper bags with spit up on them. And a hello-kitty backpack. And wearing stereotypical soccer dad outfit. Probably with some crying kids as camouflage!
You have no idea how radars work then. The original spotter groups started after the tri-state tornado. There is a perfectly legit reason for spotters/chasers. Radars can only see so much. At 100 miles from the radar, the beam is at 10,000 feet. You need ground truth.
Not saying you don't need ground confirmation - my point was that the radar gives you more information regarding rotation, inflow, etc. than a ground spotter.
If I remember enough from the meteorology classes I took a long time ago, the radars do a scan at one elevation, say 1.5 degrees elevation, then another scan at say 3.0 degrees elevation, and so on until max elevation. The computer then compiles the scans and creates the image.
I know the radar out by Dodge City had some troubles with the wind farms when they first went on line so I'm thinking that the beam can read something about 262 feet off the ground at 20 miles. If you extrapolate that out at about 150 miles the base would be 1,963 feet.
I'm thinking beam height is at 4,000 feet at the edge of the circle on the map.
But that is a guess.
I have been a radar instructor, but since that was for traffic radar, I'm pretty much at the max of my knowledge here. :)
thepatriot2705
03-01-16, 14:13
Not saying you don't need ground confirmation - my point was that the radar gives you more information regarding rotation, inflow, etc. than a ground spotter.
If I remember enough from the meteorology classes I took a long time ago, the radars do a scan at one elevation, say 1.5 degrees elevation, then another scan at say 3.0 degrees elevation, and so on until max elevation. The computer then compiles the scans and creates the image.
I know the radar out by Dodge City had some troubles with the wind farms when they first went on line so I'm thinking that the beam can read something about 262 feet off the ground at 20 miles. If you extrapolate that out at about 150 miles the base would be 1,963 feet.
I'm thinking beam height is at 4,000 feet at the edge of the circle on the map.
But that is a guess.
I have been a radar instructor, but since that was for traffic radar, I'm pretty much at the max of my knowledge here. :)
In regards to beam height....I use an app called "radarscope." (Best $10 app out there. Gives you scan every 2.5 minutes during severe weather and 5 minute scans during non severe weather). One of the features on radarscope is the distance tool. If you start on a radar, it gives you distance & beam height.
Miles Out | Beam Height (These are for the .5 scan)
10 500 feet
25 1500 feet
50 3560 feet
100 9500 feet
100 miles for the 1.0 scan is 18,880 feet.
http://www.radartutorial.eu/01.basics/Calculation%20of%20height.en.html
Not a Reed Timmer fan, or his counterparts. But I do see some value in them filming and even potentially some of the hi res vertical Doppler, sensor packages, etc.
Pet peeve...LEO need to learn how to look past appearances and focus more on behavior. Having been stopped multiple times solely for driving a street legal vehicle that is used both by civvy and non-tactical military usages... (It's a soft skinned vehicle that is best described as the bastard offspring of a vw minivan and a Hummer or unimog) Exterior appearances are just not an accurate predictor of criminal intent or behavior. IE: the minivan with people looking & acting suspicious is probably more of a risk than the clearly middle aged, pot bellied hobbiest headed for a car show in a vintage vehicle. Note: this is not an inspection/Street legality issue, its a misguided "see something, say something" mindset.
The same is true for pelican cases and ammo cans, I've had security guards at military bases and LEO ask to inspect them even when it's clear they are too small to carry a firearm, etc and yet let the much larger suitcases, diaper bags, and similar go without a second glance. ( my overnight suitcase is a pelican carryon sized roll around. I tell them they are happy to rummage through my dirty underwear). Routine traffic stop: "anything in the ammo can I need to be worried about?". Said can was in the back of a SUV 8 feet from where I was sitting.
I don't mind officers being alert or even asking the question. But if they are homing in on external appearances rather than looking deeper at behavior and context, they are going to miss something critical one day. Checking a small Pelican case, but not checking bags large enough to hold an AR or similar next to it is just silly. The DC shooter comes to mind, and other similar circumstances. The risk was from someone in a nondescript vehicle in non military attire.
If I ever have to do something tactical it'll be in a nondescript, well used Chrysler minivan, with my gear carried in diaper bags with spit up on them. And a hello-kitty backpack. And wearing stereotypical soccer dad outfit. Probably with some crying kids as camouflage!
Thanks for telling us how to do our job. We love it. I've never been a meteorologist, but I'm thinking about heading to the weather station to give them some pointers.
Outlander Systems
03-01-16, 18:02
C'mon dudes.
Don't piss on anybody's shoes...calm down, and bro it out.
We're all homies here. Except for Eurodriver. That dude's a butthole.
Thanks for telling us how to do our job. We love it. I've never been a meteorologist, but I'm thinking about heading to the weather station to give them some pointers.
Anytime, you are welcome! And helping out the weather guys would be great, if you have time between stopping the onslaught of mad-max vehicle driving bad guys.
Cause, you know there is such a great track record of proactively catching the bad guys by focusing on behavioral issues VS spending energy on factors that do not correlate well with crime and terror. Lets count the number of major crime events that had mad-max vehicles as a factor.... Anyone? Buehler? Anyone?
Anyone who feels they are so great at their job that no outsider can possibly provide constructive criticism must be pretty darn good. In private sector we know we have blind spots, and work with objective third parties to try to find those gaps and deal with them.
And I'll tell you from first hand observation, there are some huge blind spots that pose security risks that I will not list here.
In regards to beam height....I use an app called "radarscope." (Best $10 app out there. Gives you scan every 2.5 minutes during severe weather and 5 minute scans during non severe weather). One of the features on radarscope is the distance tool. If you start on a radar, it gives you distance & beam height.
Miles Out | Beam Height (These are for the .5 scan)
10 500 feet
25 1500 feet
50 3560 feet
100 9500 feet
100 miles for the 1.0 scan is 18,880 feet.
http://www.radartutorial.eu/01.basics/Calculation%20of%20height.en.html
Hey, thanks for that link.
Don't piss on anybody's shoes...calm down, and bro it out.
You are right.
As an aside, Reed Timmer comes across as pretty annoying on when chasing on TV. Yet I saw him with his (new) meteorologist wife on FNN and he was almost sheepishly shy. Same for the other guy (with the heavier vehicle) when he was on mythbusters. Actually, they both might have been on mythbusters, when they put them in the jet wake of a 7x7.
I've wondered what happened the whole discover crew, they seem to have disappeared. I'm guessing the chaser fad ran it's course.
Voodoochild
03-01-16, 18:27
I suggest everyone take a deep breath and relax. Anymore of this bickering back and forth will result in a ruler to the knuckles.
I normally let them do their stupidity, as long as they are only endangering themselves. Most around here stay out of LEO and Rescue's way, when they don't we normally don't have time to deal with them other than get a name and have a come to Jesus meeting later.
HardToHandle
03-01-16, 21:45
Noting VooDoo's admonition, here is a slightly varnished reflection.
#1 - Do not rely solely on the Weather Service for tornado warning... coming from a NWS cooperative observer, trained spotter, former first responder, NWS research project contact, etc. As noted, radar misses too much and the warning teams are too dependent on the technology.
#2 - I have a poor view of most spotters with flashing lights driving foolishly around deadly storms believing they'll meet Helen Hunt. I have responded to a dozen deadly tornados... I cannot recall a single situation where random, freelance spotters contributed in any way beyond some footage and breathless aggrandizement on the TV news. No amateur spotters contributed to actual warnings that saved lives. I am absolutely supportive of trained local responders, Sky Warn and other legitimate, trained and supervised spotters that have a track record of making people safer. Thanks to all who step up in that role.
#3 - With due respect, asking M4C for opinion on appropriate etiquette for storm chasing is a sure sign you do not need to be doing it.
#4 - I must have become old and crotchety, as I can not understand why random people storm chasing think they are contributing, just like the parents who strapped a GoPro on their four year old to tour a museum last week.. Same thought process to me.
The test for this issue is does the probative value, such as risk of traffic accident, outweigh the positive values of alert/warning to the general public or furthering research? I do not see a net return to society from a majority of storm chasing - it seems to be mostly reality TV, even from well intentioned persons. We live in a nominally free country, so have at it Hoss... But please do not crash into my friends and family trying to get to a smart, safe place.
thepatriot2705
03-02-16, 00:34
#3 - With due respect, asking M4C for opinion on appropriate etiquette for storm chasing is a sure sign you do not need to be doing it.
Noted....but wow....just wow...
Ive been doing this for 4 years now. Logged over 22,000 miles. I know what im doing. However, I came here to get input from LEO in tornado alley on A) What they think of chasers B) Anything that might be relevant to me that I do not know.
Eurodriver
03-02-16, 05:39
The same is true for pelican cases and ammo cans, I've had security guards at military bases and LEO ask to inspect them even when it's clear they are too small to carry a firearm, etc and yet let the much larger suitcases, diaper bags, and similar go without a second glance. ( my overnight suitcase is a pelican carryon sized roll around. I tell them they are happy to rummage through my dirty underwear). Routine traffic stop: "anything in the ammo can I need to be worried about?". Said can was in the back of a SUV 8 feet from where I was sitting.
This is a good point. When I lived on base I jumped through all of the hoops to register my AR with the state and base. It was a PITA. But because the pelican case didn't fit in my trunk I had to put it in the back seat of my car and every time when rolling through the gate I'd get the "You just got selected for a random search!"
I started breaking my AR down and putting it in a tennis racket bag...in the front seat...within arms reach...and was never stopped again.
Idiots.
HardToHandle
03-02-16, 18:49
Noted....but wow....just wow...
Ive been doing this for 4 years now. Logged over 22,000 miles. I know what im doing. However, I came here to get input from LEO in tornado alley on A) What they think of chasers B) Anything that might be relevant to me that I do not know.
Understandable. My opinion is shaped because a colleague, a longtime fire fighter, died in a vehicular recon post tornado. He knew what he was doing, was in contact with dispatch but still perished.
In another fatal tornado I worked, numerous first responders drove through the plume of an ammonia leak caused by tornado damage. In that case, responders not sufficiently situationally aware of the incident potentially became victims, which could have required resources already engaged in search and Rescue for the initial victims. I believe public safety is endangered when well intentioned but unconnected persons seek entertainment in dangerous situations to the detriment of unavoidable victims. An opinion was sought and rendered with my perspective.
That said, I kayak, and have done so in challenging situations that could have cost me my life. To each their own.
If you want to place yourself in harm's way to video record tornados go right ahead.
Storm chasing is not an issue so long as emergency resources are not diverted from victims who lost their homes to rescue you.
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