View Full Version : Guns You Really Wanted to Love But Just Couldn't
Doc Safari
03-02-16, 16:54
We've all run across them: that wonderful work of art that was supposed to "complete" your firearm collection, or at least make you think you'd "arrived."
Then you shot them, carried them, cleaned them, and then dang near wanted to throw them in the river.
I'm not talking about one defective or bubba'ed example of a fine design: I'm talking about hating an entire design after thinking it was going to be your favorite firearm.
My list:
HK91
After a buddy enthusiastically declared it to be the perfect combination of AK reliability with sniper precision, I plunked $1,200 down on one (1992 prices after the 1989 import ban).
It was heavy. The fluted chamber made it so you couldn't save money rolling your own .308's after shooting factory ammo all day. It kicked like a 12-gauge shotgun. If you made a mistake reassembling the bolt carrier group, it required thumbs of steel to move the bolt back into the right position to put it in the receiver. You had to use the STANAG mount to put a scope on it.
Oh, and the high quality steel mags were both rare and expensive by 1992.
I had one for exactly a week and sold it to finance a Galil, which I loved.
Seecamp .25
Okay, I know .25 caliber sucks, but the Seecamp guns were so hard to get for a time that I jumped on this one because I knew I might be old and grey before I even saw a .32 (there were no other models at that time).
It was unreliable. I broke the extractor trying to reassemble it. I had to have a gunsmith install the new extractor and reassemble it for me. He even had trouble: it was returned to me with fresh scratches on the slide.
Oh, and mags were impossible to find. I sold that gun at the next gun show.
Walther PPK/S
The James Bond gun. Stainless steel. Jammed like a mutherf***er.
Tried to love it. Tried different magazines and ammo.
It was the pre-internet era, so I chatted up every FFL I could about whether it might just be my gun or the whole run. Most stated that they had seen a lot of problems with the US-made ones.
I really wanted to like that gun.
James Bond would have died a thousand times if he had carried it.
Sold it and bought my first Makarov, which was everything the PPK/S wasn't. I'm convinced if James Bond had been a real guy he would have defected to the Soviets just to get a Makarov.
Daewoo K2
Perfect combination of the AK and AR, right? Wrong. Retainer for the nut to hold the rubber butt plate to the stock broke the first time I tightened it just a little bit. I think the retainer was broken already but took that little bit of torque to make it give way. Not very robust for a "combat" weapon. I glued the rubber butt plate onto the stock and it worked, but then the handguards started wearing excessively and becoming loose very quickly.
There were no replacement parts available at the time. I had to sell the gun quickly, afraid the whole furniture set would disintegrate from very little use.
Polytech M14S
And on that day I learned the hard way: Chinese guns are junk.
The stock was made of balsa wood. I knocked a corner off of it with just a minor bump. The bolt was soft. I couldn't figure out why the gun had trouble extracting after a couple hundred rounds. I took it to a gunsmith. He determined that the bolt head was starting to mushroom and headspace was already into the dangerously too much zone.
I later learned from the innernetz that these were prone to have the problems I experienced.
I never bought another Chinese firearm.
Star Firestar 9mm
A miniature 1911, right? Or at least it looked it. At a time when concealable guns were mostly .380, I really really wanted to like this mini 9mm that resembled a 1911.
Unreliable with anything but ball ammo, and jammed so badly with hollow points that you had to pry the mag out of the mag well to remove the stuck round. That pretty much made it a range toy.
If you accidentally moved the safety upward too far with the slide off, you launched the safety detent and spring into outer space. I spent many hours on my knees with a flashlight because I did this more than once.
No more Star Firestars for me.
That's when I switched to Glocks and didn't look back.
PS90
It looks like this cyberpunk anime gun but it sucks. Any SBR ever beats it.
SCAR
It seems so right, but feels so wrong.
I just can't get comfy with it.
HK MR762
Wanted one so bad. Shot one. Deemed it pointless once I had ECC in hand.
SPAS 12
No matter how much you shoot it; you'll never be a Terminator or Muldoon. I learned this the hard way.
ETA I was totally opposite. Got a Makarov because I couldn't afford a PPK. Hated it. Ditched it. Got PPK. Love it. The DA trigger is super heavy but I love it. Years back it accompanied me in my travel backpack as my CCW. Had to keep it oiled but it's a handy pistol. This was way before I got into Glock 19. Ironic as I had a Glock 21 back then. Meh, live and learn
Galil ARM .308
Heavier than an AK, less accurate than a FAL. Worst of both worlds. Insanely expensive and hard to find magazines, parts are even more difficult. But worst of all, a free floating firing pin. When my buddies exploded during a slam fire incident I learned from his experience and cashed out of mine.
They made a side scope mount for it, but another rare and expensive option.
It did have the coolest way to stash a bipod in the hand guards that I have ever seen though.
Galil ARM .308
Heavier than an AK, less accurate than a FAL. Worst of both worlds. Insanely expensive and hard to find magazines, parts are even more difficult. But worst of all, a free floating firing pin. When my buddies exploded during a slam fire incident I learned from his experience and cashed out of mine.
They made a side scope mount for it, but another rare and expensive option.
It did have the coolest way to stash a bipod in the hand guards that I have ever seen though.
Very true but Way of the Gun was such a cool movie though....
:(
wildcard600
03-02-16, 19:24
Any Glock. Just can't get used to the grip angle. I suppose i could if i ditched all of my other handguns and went solely to Glocks, but i like my HK's and Beretta's too much.
KalashniKEV
03-02-16, 19:33
Definitely Uzi for me.
What the hell is it for?
Clumsy, awkward CQB?
Battlefield combat?
At least a MAC is concealable, and weights less than one half as much.
An MP5 makes a fine CQB weapon against unarmored targets.
...and the Colt 635 is truly an under-appreciated masterpiece.
Uzi is not good at anything, and the ergos suck.
Agree on UZIs but I wouldn't call the Colt SMG a 'masterpiece' until it had some anti rotation pins.
A lot of Israeli guns seem all practical tactical until you shoot them then it's like "WTH?!"
KalashniKEV
03-02-16, 19:49
Agree on UZIs but I wouldn't call the Colt SMG a 'masterpiece' until it had some anti rotation pins.
It's not the rotation as much as the strength. KNS pins are Stainless Steel and longer besides distributing the force between them.
The Colt SS pins were a good, adequate fix though.
I'm taking back "masterpiece" though, because I forgot in it's stock form you still break bolt catches.
It is indeed an under appreciated weapon though.
A lot of Israeli guns seem all practical tactical until you shoot them then it's like "WTH?!"
LOL... yeah well when your primary foe is little kids with slingshots and overweight, elderly housewives with kitchen knives, you can afford to field shit like CAA junk, Ruger 10/22s, 9mm sub guns as paratrooper weapons, double barrel 1911s, a 1913 rail Glock holder, Hi Powers wrapped in reflector tape, etc...
(It's funny because it's true!)
Definitely Uzi for me.
What the hell is it for?
Clumsy, awkward CQB?
Battlefield combat?
At least a MAC is concealable, and weights less than one half as much.
An MP5 makes a fine CQB weapon against unarmored targets.
...and the Colt 635 is truly an under-appreciated masterpiece.
Uzi is not good at anything, and the ergos suck.
Agree on the Uzi - but re - the Colt is truly an under-appreciated masterpiece - bro, do you even subgun?
The Colt freaking jumps all over the place like a v-twin motorcycle with a plug wire off. Freaking blowback bolt jumping piece-of-shit. A couple of guys brought them to a subgun instructor class I put on, we do some fun stuff the first day in the name of diagnostics - one of those is a mag bump from 5 yards on a blown up Ace of Spades - about 4x5" on an 81/2x11 piece of copy paper - these guys were putting rounds off the copy paper. I'm looking at them thinking, okay some stance issues, I'll get them off the mag well and get them mounting the damned thing correctly, it'll be okay. They didn't get better - during the semi-auto days hammers and controlled pairs weren't coming together, so during lunch I took one out and shot it - one of the components of driving a subgun like the MP5 and Colt is actually keeping the front sight somewhat near wear you are aiming. That Colt was jumping like a jumping bean on a hot plate. After that my expectations of their groups was not as strict - I did let them swap off a couple drills on an Academy MP5 - they liked it - well, no shit.
Second of all the answer to the MP5 against armored subjects is, well, shit, it ain't that hard - face shoot them.
The Trump thing, that's forgivable, but saying a Colt 635 is an 'an under-appreciated masterpiece' - shut yo mouth Willis! :D
IWI Baby Eagle (Jericho 941) - Really liked the way it looked (basically a CZ 75), had a very nice trigger, but the goddamn slide-mounted safety/decocker thingie was a nightmare. It got in the way of working the slide since it sat right on top of the slide serrations, plus the finish was in polished chrome, so unless your hands and the gun were bone dry it would sometimes slip when racking it. It was reliable, though, and fairly accurate, but I sold it and moved onto other guns.
VZ-58 - looked awesome, was light and handy. I owned 4 of them over the years. I had issues with failures to feed on all 4, and believe it or not, the nearly vertical ejection actually resulted in a few very, very memorable stovepipes - where the spent case was ejected but landed back in the action. You would expect that this would be almost impossible, but it happened twice in the span of a few years. It's not a bad gun, but I prefer AKs when it comes to ComBloc guns.
KalashniKEV
03-02-16, 20:37
The Colt freaking jumps all over the place like a v-twin motorcycle with a plug wire off.
...a mag bump from 5 yards on a blown up Ace of Spades - about 4x5" on an 81/2x11 piece of copy paper
Second of all the answer to the MP5 against armored subjects is, well, shit, it ain't that hard - face shoot them.
The Trump thing, that's forgivable but saying a Colt 635 is an 'an under-appreciated masterpiece' - shut yo mouth Willis! :D
Sounds like a rad course!
Do you guys shoot balloons one handed holding a ski-tow while your partner pulls you along on a skateboard?
What about rock-the-canoe?
I'm sitting here in front of an SBR'd MP5 and and SBR'd 635 type (H3 buffer and Hytech block) and while MP5 is still the king, I think the Colt gives it a run for it's money. It's actually been stealing range time from the MP5 recently.
I know if they could have developed a solid, GTG block and sold it as a modular weapons system, plus sneak it into a few 80's action flicks, Colt could have sold about a million of them.
Then again, the list of "Things Colt should have done to not be broke" is a loooooooong one...
1911... when I first became a gun guy back in my army days, all my friend were 1911 guys as was just about everyone else in the ft.bragg area. But no amount of shooting several really nice 1911s or having a custom 1911 of my own built could make a 1911 guy out of me. Rare is the occasion that I successfully interact with a 1911 on the range. My old 1911 now belong to one of my friends who shoots its great and he never lets me forget how nice of a gun it is. The only 1911 Ill ever own will be some old banged up GI gun, just to have laying about the gun room in a footlocker or something. Because this is still America.
Definitely Uzi for me.
What the hell is it for?
Clumsy, awkward CQB?
Battlefield combat?
At least a MAC is concealable, and weights less than one half as much.
An MP5 makes a fine CQB weapon against unarmored targets.
...and the Colt 635 is truly an under-appreciated masterpiece.
Uzi is not good at anything, and the ergos suck.
When the alternative was the M3 Grease Gun, the Uzi was a comparative dream. Time and place.
Sounds like a rad course!
Do you guys shoot balloons one handed holding a ski-tow while your partner pulls you along on a skateboard?
What about rock-the-canoe?
Those exercises are only done in the Master Instructor Course. Generally if the UH-1 is up that one also includes STABO insertion into a second floor window just as we deploy a flashbang on a painter's pole. I got the idea from the movie the final option, and wanted to share the misery of STABO'ing around Fort Campbell waiting to get dunked in the lake at the rappelmaster course. Aerosol.
Seriously, we only get as high speed as engaging moving targets while shooting on the move in the courses we do, a lot of the basics - reps to get reloads and immediate action ingrained. Mostly semi-auto. Unfortunately, because I really like teaching it, the subgun has gone the way of the whale. I get an MP5 out about once a year now. Used to be once a week.
You mock the Ace of Spades, yet I'd be willing to bet you have a quarter center punched with a .308 at 100 yards in a lucite block sitting on a bookcase shelf somewhere.
BTW - I like the Colt compared to any UMP.
A good friend of my dad, had a impressive antique rifle and pistol collection. I mean, impressive!! He owned over 100 guns and the most modern of them was made in the early 1900's. You would just have to know this guy to understand him. He was 81 and he owned the company he started working for when he was 7. The most humble man I have ever known. If anyone just mentioned hunting or fishing, he would sit and talk with them for as long as he could.
He owned a lot of great guns but this is about "what I really wanted to have, but couldn't". He had a Louis Vuitton trunk that belonged to Kermit Roosevelt. Inside of that trunk was 2 identical Holland & Holland double rifles in .450 along with an original big game safari guide and hand drawn big game identification chart. Along with that collection, he also owned 2 Winchester .405 and a 1903 Springfield owned by J. Alden Loring who participated in the Smithsonian-Roosevelt African Expedition. He also owned an original Colt Paterson revolver owned by John Hays, one of the first Texas Rangers hired by Stephen F Austin in 1823. He owned a old Holland and Holland 4 bore rifle. A few months before he died, he donated every gun he owned to a few different organizations including Smithsonian, Ducks Unlimited, Texas Rangers and US Marshalls. For about a 2 years, either Christies or Sotheby's was trying to convince him to auction off him entire collection but he didn't want too because he had actually used these guns to hunt and shot them on several occasions.
HK91
The fluted chamber made it so you couldn't save money rolling your own
No it didn't.
Galil ARM .308
Heavier than an AK, less accurate than a FAL. Worst of both worlds. Insanely expensive and hard to find magazines, parts are even more difficult. But worst of all, a free floating firing pin. When my buddies exploded during a slam fire incident I learned from his experience and cashed out of mine.
I had an original Magnum Research Imported 7.62 NATO Galil AR (the one without the bipod). SHortly after I bought it I received a recall notice that the bolt needed to be sent in so they could replace it with one with a firing pin with a spring. This was because the Galil was set for harder military primers and might cause slamfires with commercial ones.
My 7.62 NATO Galil was very accurate. I was getting 5 shot groups of about 1.5" at 100 yards. I bought it in 1983 and sold it in the mid 1990s. I was unable to find spare parts, and I became convinced that its accuracy had deteriorated. It turned out that I needed to use glasses to shoot where I previously had not required them.
Kahr polymer sub compacts. Never could make them run but really tried.
No it didn't.
Lot's of people assumed those flash burns were some kind of impression.
Kahr polymer sub compacts. Never could make them run but really tried.
Me too. I prefer compact/sub compact pistols. I tried the the Kahr .45 SC, and the recoil was so severe I only put 2 rounds through it. The second round was only to be sure I hadn't imagined the first.
I have an M&P 40C, an XD9 SC and a 1911 alloy frame compact in .45. The Kahr was WAY more perceived recoil than any of those. It actually felt double the aluminum 1911.
Pluses were its size (tiny) and the grip texture was very aggressive...excellent grip for my large hands on a small pistol.
I loved it until I pulled the trigger.
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Doc Safari
03-03-16, 09:37
Lot's of people assumed those flash burns were some kind of impression.
It was universally accepted that you couldn't reload HK91 brass back in the day.
I personally don't know anyone who tried, but then again it was somewhat of a rare gun in these parts and maybe five or six people in town had them.
Fullauto Colt 635. They suck compared to the mp5/mp5k and UZI. Other than the manual of arms, the m16/9 is a crude underdeveloped design. Choppy, recoil on par with a 5.56 m16, and the dreaded FCG pins. I bought my first m16 thinking I would buy a 635 upper and a magwell adapter. Then I shot a friend's factory 635 and another friend's m16 with 9mm upper and Gemtech Raptor. I promptly decided against setting my m16 up in 9mm. Not to mention that I'm not willing to risk damage to the lower from broken FCG pins.
AK47s. I know this is blasphemy but I've just never been a big fan. I own one, just because everyone needs at least one AK.
Seecamp .25
Okay, I know .25 caliber sucks, but the Seecamp guns were so hard to get for a time that I jumped on this one because I knew I might be old and grey before I even saw a .32 (there were no other models at that time).
It was unreliable. I broke the extractor trying to reassemble it. I had to have a gunsmith install the new extractor and reassemble it for me. He even had trouble: it was returned to me with fresh scratches on the slide.
Oh, and mags were impossible to find. I sold that gun at the next gun show.
That's when I switched to Glocks and didn't look back.
I HAD to have a .32 Seecamp and a Kahr MK9 for the wife and a MK40 for me. All three guns SUCKED BADLY! They were not reliable and yes I shot only .32 silvertips through the Seecamp. I waited over a year on the list for that gun. It was gone in a few months. The MK's were jamomatics too. I tried a Beretta Tomcat in .32, it was reliable but it's a mouse gun and .38 is the smallest I've decided to carry. I loved my 642's but the capacity and reloads were low and slow. I carried a speed strip on my belt and two spares in my pocket for 20 rounds. I am so very happy with my S&W Shields. They're the perfect balance of power and conceal-ability. I carried a 642 for many years, tried a Colt Detective special for the extra round, I did not like it and sold it and went back to a 642. When the 640PD came out I took the beloved 642 out of my pocket and traded into the 640PD on the spot. DAMN that gun HURT to shoot! I was called away from qualification one day to a car crash. As I was writing out the report I could not figure out why my hand was shaking. It was because I'd just qualified with that 640PD! I kept it a few more years, it was light and powerful but made me bleed when I shot it. The cylinder release bud into my thumb and cut me. I have carpal tunnel and that thing had to go. I contemplated switching from G22's to G17's at work but the guys almost had a mutiny. I carried a G35 for a few years but switched back to the G22, the holster for the 35 was just a little too long.
So my here is my handgun list. Don't get me going on rifles and shotguns.
1. Seecamp .32
2. Beretta Tomcat in .32
3. MK9 & MK40
4. S&W 640PD in .357
5. Kimber Ultra Carry .45
The G27 should get an honorable mention. I sold it and don't miss it. It replaced my 640PD five shot for several years. It was good gun just not easy to shoot w/o the +1 mag base plate and at that point it was as long in the grip as my G23 with less rounds.
You damn kids :dance3: don't know how good you have it with all the quality small pistols in real calibers we have to choose from! Seriously we have it good. I think the only good thing that came out of the 1994 AWB is great small sized fighting pistols were designed.
Me too. I prefer compact/sub compact pistols. I tried the the Kahr .45 SC, and the recoil was so severe I only put 2 rounds through it. The second round was only to be sure I hadn't imagined the first.
I have an M&P 40C, an XD9 SC and a 1911 alloy frame compact in .45. The Kahr was WAY more perceived recoil than any of those. It actually felt double the aluminum 1911.
Pluses were its size (tiny) and the grip texture was very aggressive...excellent grip for my large hands on a small pistol.
I loved it until I pulled the trigger.
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Oops I forgot about the Kimber .45 Ultra Carry. That was a cool little gun to carry but too snappy. Full size 1911'a are the way to go IMHO. I miss my Caspian .45, first and only gun I ever had built. The BoMar sights were awesome.
brickboy240
03-03-16, 10:19
The 1938 Italian 6.5mm Carcano Short Rifle. Honestly, if you have one....you too highly question how Oswald could have made those shots! LOL 50yd groups looked like shotgun patterns and the bore on my Carcano looked nearly new. How does a country that produces Beretta and other high quality guns make such crap and issue this to their soldiers? Amazing. No wonder they hung Mussolini in the town square!
Second place goes to the Taurus Thunderbolt 45 Colt pump rifle. How cool...really cool this would have been...IF it worked right. Great idea but piss poor execution and typical of all things Taurus.
Any Glock but I really wanted to like the 19. With recent gens of Glock improving the ergos, NSW choosing it, the compact size, etc I decided to rent one and put 100rnds through it recently. Obviously, given time, could learn to work with it, but the ergos, trigger, sites and POI, were for me, typical Glock and wouldn't replace any pistols I own (VP9, M&P) with it.
Shot guns. Just don't dig them. If I have access to a long gun, will be an AR. If not, it's a pistol. I had a short stint trying to like shot guns, and as a platform, just didn't seem to make sense overall for me.
crusader377
03-03-16, 10:37
Glock 19. Between renting them and shooting friends guns I have probably put over a 1000rds through them. Really want to like them but I simply don't shoot well with them and feel awkward to me and I simply can't warm up to them.
Doc Safari
03-03-16, 10:40
Any Glock but I really wanted to like the 19. With recent gens of Glock improving the ergos, NSW choosing it, the compact size, etc I decided to rent one and put 100rnds through it recently. Obviously, given time, could learn to work with it, but the ergos, trigger, sites and POI, were for me, typical Glock and wouldn't replace any pistols with it.
I debated whether to include the Glock 19 on my list. The Gen 3 and earlier grips are just all wrong for me, but I haven't tried a Gen 4 Glock 19 yet. The grip on the Gen 3 Glock 17 is even better than previous ones, so at some point I may try a Gen 4 Glock 19 to see if it will become one of my favorites.
I debated whether to include the Glock 19 on my list. The Gen 3 and earlier grips are just all wrong for me, but I haven't tried a Gen 4 Glock 19 yet. The grip on the Gen 3 Glock 17 is even better than previous ones, so at some point I may try a Gen 4 Glock 19 to see if it will become one of my favorites.
They seem to get a little better with each Gen, so maybe this newest Gen 19 will do it for you. Could I live with it? Sure. Replace existing choices for SD/HD. etc? Nope.
FN FAL - owned four of them, tried hard to love them, sold them all. Just too heavy, built like a farm implement, aftermarket parts need hand-fitting...
FS2000 - cool looking, but awkward as hell to use; did not like the skirt on the mag well, the little trapdoor to check the action, or the plastic FCG.
AR308s - owned a dozen of them, tried hard to love them, sold them all. Too big, too heavy, lack of aftermarket support, did not do more for me than my 6.5 Grendel AR15s.
FN FAL - owned four of them, tried hard to love them, sold them all. Just too heavy, built like a farm implement, aftermarket parts need hand-fitting...
Same here. I am a lefty and as much as I want to love the FAL, it just doesn't work for me.
HK91, many of the same reasons listed by others.
Oops I forgot about the Kimber .45 Ultra Carry. That was a cool little gun to carry but too snappy. Full size 1911'a are the way to go IMHO. I miss my Caspian .45, first and only gun I ever had built. The BoMar sights were awesome.
Yeah they've got some snap to them for sure.
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S&W M&P. I sold some Glocks and bought a couple and never really got into them. Sold them, went back to Glock.
Sig 228
For a gun that's supposed to be a smaller version of the 226 their grip is all kinds of wrong. The 226 fits me fine but the 228 has .....I dunno but it digs into my thumb for so.e reason. Same area on the 226....no problemo.
L1A1
as a lefty their safeties are in the wrong place. Hang down to the grip on the wrong side. Grabbing it means instant safety engagement. Otherwise I like metric FALs.
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ColtSeavers
03-03-16, 15:41
Shot guns. Just don't dig them. If I have access to a long gun, will be a[ rifle]. If not, it's a pistol. I had a short stint trying to like shot guns, and as a platform, just didn't seem to make sense overall for me.
Seconded.
Nothing about them appeals to me. I've shot them, I've blown sh!t up with them and I've just never rrally liked them.
Seconded.
Nothing about them appeals to me. I've shot them, I've blown sh!t up with them and I've just never rrally liked them.
You don't hunt birds?
The_War_Wagon
03-03-16, 16:33
M1A. Ergonomics are ALL wrong for me, even though it's 14lbs of sexy. If I were independently wealthy, I'd have 'em around as wall hangers. I use an HK91/PTR91/G3 or FAL for my .308 delivery needs.
Years ago I had a Government Model Series 70. Kept it for years waiting to become a 1911 enthusiast, utimately sold it after several years of waiting to develop some kind of emotion other than utter indifference. Never could warm up to that gun.
Doc Safari
03-03-16, 16:46
I guess I should add a "dishonorable mention" here.
When I was a kid, my dad had a Browning Hi-Power and I shot it every time we took it to the range.
Unfortunately, it had failures to eject several times per magazine and wouldn't feed anything but ball ammo with even that degree of reliability. That soured me on the pistol, and I never bought one.
Years later, people told me that must have been a lemon, or the mags must have been bad, or it just needs something fixed, or something.
It's a gun I'd love to appreciate, but my experiences as a kid with my dad's Hi-Power have made it impossible.
Are they generally reliable?
Are new examples still being made, or is it an obsolete design?
How about pricing and prices for magazines?
Is it a gun like the 1911 that has high maintenance needs, or is it more trouble-free like a Glock?
Honestly, until recently I hadn't cared enough about it to look into any of this. It's a gun I feel I might have been unduly biased against due to one example, but I don't know if I would ever have the confidence to own one.
ColtSeavers
03-03-16, 17:10
You don't hunt birds?
No, just clays.
I debated whether to include the Glock 19 on my list. The Gen 3 and earlier grips are just all wrong for me, but I haven't tried a Gen 4 Glock 19 yet. The grip on the Gen 3 Glock 17 is even better than previous ones, so at some point I may try a Gen 4 Glock 19 to see if it will become one of my favorites.
I was of the same opinion about Glocks until Gen4. The grip just felt better on the Gen4's.
AR308s - owned a dozen of them, tried hard to love them, sold them all. Too big, too heavy, lack of aftermarket support, did not do more for me than my 6.5 Grendel AR15s.
What??? When did you sell your Armalite AR-10A? If I recall correctly you had a nice one that you posted up a few months back.
I think there's a pretty decent and growing aftermarket for .308 ARs.
Seconded.
Nothing about them appeals to me. I've shot them, I've blown sh!t up with them and I've just never rrally liked them.
Third!
I own 2. Got great deals on two Remington 870 magnums police trades with full length tubes and slings for $300. Function checked and that was it, been sitting in my safe for a few years untouched
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I guess I should add a "dishonorable mention" here.
When I was a kid, my dad had a Browning Hi-Power and I shot it every time we took it to the range.
Unfortunately, it had failures to eject several times per magazine and wouldn't feed anything but ball ammo with even that degree of reliability. That soured me on the pistol, and I never bought one.
Years later, people told me that must have been a lemon, or the mags must have been bad, or it just needs something fixed, or something.
It's a gun I'd love to appreciate, but my experiences as a kid with my dad's Hi-Power have made it impossible.
Are they generally reliable?
Are new examples still being made, or is it an obsolete design?
How about pricing and prices for magazines?
Is it a gun like the 1911 that has high maintenance needs, or is it more trouble-free like a Glock?
Honestly, until recently I hadn't cared enough about it to look into any of this. It's a gun I feel I might have been unduly biased against due to one example, but I don't know if I would ever have the confidence to own one.
There's a whole thread about them as carry guns in the handgun subforum.
Third!
I own 2. Got great deals on two Remington 870 magnums police trades with full length tubes and slings for $300. Function checked and that was it, been sitting in my safe for a few years untouched
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Fourth! Lol. I had FN SLP and I only shot 2-3 times over the 5 years that I owned it. Didn't see the point for my uses.
Fourth! Lol. I had FN SLP and I only shot 2-3 times over the 5 years that I owned it. Didn't see the point for my uses.
Unless shooting clays, shotguns just don't provide the same entertaining shooting experience as other firearms.
Sighting methods typically involve judging a moving target and when applied to a static target aren't as precise or challenging. I love my Benelli's and everything but taking them to the range is about as exciting as taking a Big Wheel to a Go Kart track.
Even when doing a tactical "stage to stage" shotgun course, it feels like something is missing. It is typically the least interesting aspect of "3 gun" and that is why most practical shooters have evolved to "2 gun."
I used to have shotguns. Had some nice ones.
Got rid of them all. As a younger person I was brainwashed into thinking that they were the ultimate patrol longarm.
I heard the whole shotgun racking spiel. Went to tons of courses. Now I don't have any. Honestly I'd sooner have a cut down, suppressed AR.
Same with "M4" style rifles. Kinda pointless now. Currently trying to refit them all with rifle length handguard and middy gas. Debated a CAR-15 build but would sooner just have another A1. Dunno. We'll see.
As I've gotten older and lazier, I see where I made a lot of missteps and listened to too many less than switched on people. The only thing I got right was getting a Glock. Other guys got P239s, P228s(which was $$$ at that time, still is), and Chief Special Smith Autos as holdout/bugs because that damn 4586 was reviled.
Same with Glock 21. I don't regret it. Love it. Genuinely enjoy shooting. 45, but it has some drawbacks. I don't regret .357 Sig but it really is a niche caliber. Not a plinker/trainer at all.
Lots of hard lessons learned but I'm past wanting to collect or screw off and just have some decent kit and leave it be. I think some stuff is fun....I want an MP5 SBR at some point but meh.
I still like revolvers because I find them fun.
Lots of living and learning
Steyr, I agree with 2 gun.
It seems more productive to test one's ability transing from a fighting carbine to a long range rifle or a rifle to a handgun than shooting clays.
Shotguns are great for breaching but beyond that....bleh. A rifled slug adds to formidability, but I'd sooner have a quarterbore or a .308.
KalashniKEV
03-03-16, 19:05
Steyr, I agree with 2 gun.
Everyone does.
Shotguns on the battlefield are for breaching and non-lethal use.
Shotguns in civilian life are for clays and birds.
A "3-Gun Match" should be Pistol, Carbine, and Precision Rifle.
If they ever made a "4-Gun Match" it should be Pistol, Carbine, Precision Rifle, and Machine Gun.
Everyone does.
Shotguns on the battlefield are for breaching and non-lethal use.
Shotguns in civilian life are for clays and birds.
A "3-Gun Match" should be Pistol, Carbine, and Precision Rifle.
If they ever made a "4-Gun Match" it should be Pistol, Carbine, Precision Rifle, and Machine Gun.
That last line made me laugh out loud. Startled the wife.
Sig 228
For a gun that's supposed to be a smaller version of the 226 their grip is all kinds of wrong. The 226 fits me fine but the 228 has .....I dunno but it digs into my thumb for so.e reason. Same area on the 226....no problemo.
L1A1
as a lefty their safeties are in the wrong place. Hang down to the grip on the wrong side. Grabbing it means instant safety engagement. Otherwise I like metric FALs.
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Im with you on the p228, but not quite my biggest disappointment, close though. I was so convinced it would be my end all be all hangun but in the long run the ergos werent for me either.
I could jump on the shotgun dogpile too. I cant remember when I last shot mine. Its likely still around because Id rather it lounge around unused than be constantly asked why I dont have a shotgun anymore. Its just a rattle canned 1998 vintage 870 scattergun tech copy but some of my friends act like it fell from the heavens.
MountainRaven
03-03-16, 23:11
When the alternative was the M3 Grease Gun, the Uzi was a comparative dream. Time and place.
I can't think of a gun that I wouldn't rather have than a Grease Gun - Thompson, STEN, Sterling, MP40, PPSh-41, PPS-43, Suomi KP/-31.... That might be due to my own lack of imagination, however.
Everyone does.
Shotguns on the battlefield are for breaching and non-lethal use.
Shotguns in civilian life are for clays and birds.
A "3-Gun Match" should be Pistol, Carbine, and Precision Rifle.
If they ever made a "4-Gun Match" it should be Pistol, Carbine, Precision Rifle, and Machine Gun.
I feel like "3-Gun" should be BUG, Pistol, Carbine.
In any event...
SiG P22X-series.
I've probably given these pistols more than their fair share of opportunities. But I just can't make them work for me. The P220 feels funky. The P226 has a slide lock located in a strange spot. The P229 SAS was nice and the E2 grips actually helped me angle my thumb away from the slide lock... but the grips wiggled, which made the gun feel chinsy.
Benelli M4 Super 90.
This gun was on my bucket list from the day I first saw one in a gun magazine, shortly after Benelli announced their introduction. But the models they sell in this country, with the fixed stock and neutered tube simply don't do it for me. These things can be fixed, but when you're spending $1700 on a shotgun, I expect such things to be fixed. Nowadays, I think I'd just buy a Molot VEPR 12, instead, were I to seriously consider a semi-automatic combat shotgun (and as an occasional upland bird hunter, that's about all the use I have for a semi-automatic or pump shotgun... anything else, I prefer a side-by-side).
Browning Hi-Power.
The trigger. Not the part that most people complain about: I can deal with the weight. No, the reset. Or apparent lack thereof. That and I feel like I spent ten hours or more fitting the grip safety, trying to make it so it wasn't too difficult to flip on and off (C&S extended single-side thumb safety... which I did because I was replacing the hammer with the C&S no-bite hammer and I like how the C&S safety looks more classic, albeit with the added ledge) and never was happy with it.
I can't think of a gun that I wouldn't rather have than a Grease Gun - Thompson, STEN, Sterling, MP40, PPSh-41, PPS-43, Suomi KP/-31.... That might be due to my own lack of imagination, however.
Love them all. But if I had to run into a room full of assholes and kill them all and my choices were a M3 grease gun or an Uzi, well it's gonna be an Uzi.
Ready.Fire.Aim
03-04-16, 00:34
Ruger Mini 30. POS.
MSAR AUG clone. POS.
MAC SMG in general but especially the M11A1 .380 SMG. 1500+ rpm. 30 round Mag dump in 2 seconds. Dangerous as hell. Why did I add it to the pile?
Serbu Bolt .50 BMG. Had to have it.
Browning HP. Over rated.
LaRue AR10. Overpriced.
Converting HK .45 USC rifle to a suppressed UMP SBR. Waste of money.
Converting Glock 17 to shoulder stocked suppressed SBR. waste of money.
ramairthree
03-04-16, 00:48
Christ, I thought I was the only one that thought guns had gone full retard in multi gun.
Ok, let's take the rifle, and if your 20 or 30 round mags are not enough run a 40, or 60, or a drum.
Why should carbine mag changes have any role in your skill as a gunfighter.
Oh, and even single stack pistols, let alone your ten, fifteen, 20 plus capacity handguns only need a token mag change or so, maybe. Because, again, why should that have any role.
But the shot gun.
Yes, the glamorous, so important killing machine that gets some hingebusters thrown in it before being twisted out of the way on its bungee cord, that nobody gives a crap about ever...
Yes,
You must show up with rows and rows of belt space in a carrier type that would be lucky enough to survive getting off and on a helo, or in and out of a striker or Pandur,
Let alone fast roping, busting as several times on an infil,
And if you had any rounds in your carrier after that say goodbye to them after your first wall over or ladder.
Yep,
That is where we are going to put all the focus.
Because guys in combat are furiously swapping slugs for birdshot and topping off there tubes in a standing position from carriers shells fall out of. Not a tic can go by without a couple dozen shotgun rounds fired while you leave your carbine in a barrel or put your pistol on a table.
I am not a fan of pistol and rifle 10 round cpacity mag bans or 5 round shotgun tubes.
But if I was king for a day,
3 gun stages would be limited to those capacities.
At 30 carbine, 30 pistol, and ten shot shells per stage max.
Christ, I thought I was the only one that thought guns had gone full retard in multi gun.
Ok, let's take the rifle, and if your 20 or 30 round mags are not enough run a 40, or 60, or a drum.
Why should carbine mag changes have any role in your skill as a gunfighter.
Oh, and even single stack pistols, let alone your ten, fifteen, 20 plus capacity handguns only need a token mag change or so, maybe. Because, again, why should that have any role.
Almost never, ever happens...but when you end up living in the middle of a Rodney King grade riot, having devoted time to magazine changes and clearing drills ends up being time well spent.
Honestly, for 90% of the people, even those who CCW, most of what we train for isn't going to happen.
Here are your real world skills.
Handgun:
1. Draw and fire accurately.
2. Accurately shoot on the move.
3. Perform magazine changes and FTE / FTF actions with minimal effort.
Not a single one of those things is even an advanced level skill (unless you've never actually practiced it). The only thing close to an advanced skill that a typical person may be required to perform is shooting from a less than ideal shooting position (like crouched behind a dumpster).
That's it. That is as ninja as it's going to get for most people.
There is nothing wrong with going down and taking an "operator course" from this guy or that guy. But unless you kick doors for a living, it's an elective and one you probably will never need.
I've had all kinds of training, enjoyed 99% of it, but I'm probably never going to need to neutralize a room with my MP5. I'm never going to be part of "sniper initiated" action. I can't think of a single "real world" incident where I am going to have to transition from my carbine to my handgun, it just isn't going to happen.
But that doesn't mean I didn't have a great time learning and practicing all those things. I have also studied half a dozen styles of classical Japanese fencing in the last 35+ years. Except for the cardio, positive sense of accomplishment and beneficial mindsets associated, I'm never going to "need" any of that stuff either.
Quite honestly, if you are talented enough to even think you need a Vickers course, your gunfight is going to be over in a few seconds. If you are actually doing your third magazine change you have either made lots and lots of mistakes or you are seriously in trouble and probably aren't going home.
Any bullpup ever. Can't manipulate them, feels weird slinging them and don't enjoy shooting them. Wanted to like the Microtech MSAR the most, they always appealed to me.
ramairthree
03-04-16, 08:18
Almost never, ever happens...but when you end up living in the middle of a Rodney King grade riot, having devoted time to magazine changes and clearing drills ends up being time well spent.
Honestly, for 90% of the people, even those who CCW, most of what we train for isn't going to happen.
Here are your real world skills.
Handgun:
1. Draw and fire accurately.
2. Accurately shoot on the move.
3. Perform magazine changes and FTE / FTF actions with minimal effort.
Not a single one of those things is even an advanced level skill (unless you've never actually practiced it). The only thing close to an advanced skill that a typical person may be required to perform is shooting from a less than ideal shooting position (like crouched behind a dumpster).
That's it. That is as ninja as it's going to get for most people.
There is nothing wrong with going down and taking an "operator course" from this guy or that guy. But unless you kick doors for a living, it's an elective and one you probably will never need.
I've had all kinds of training, enjoyed 99% of it, but I'm probably never going to need to neutralize a room with my MP5. I'm never going to be part of "sniper initiated" action. I can't think of a single "real world" incident where I am going to have to transition from my carbine to my handgun, it just isn't going to happen.
But that doesn't mean I didn't have a great time learning and practicing all those things. I have also studied half a dozen styles of classical Japanese fencing in the last 35+ years. Except for the cardio, positive sense of accomplishment and beneficial mindsets associated, I'm never going to "need" any of that stuff either.
Quite honestly, if you are talented enough to even think you need a Vickers course, your gunfight is going to be over in a few seconds. If you are actually doing your third magazine change you have either made lots and lots of mistakes or you are seriously in trouble and probably aren't going home.
I was being sarcastic.
Bottomless mags for pistol and carbine,
But full retard with amount of shotgun ammo used and amount of reloads.
I am exaggerating,
But dman it feels that way
3 gun is like golf for weekend warriors.
I think it would be more productive to do a "longest day" style match.
Like low crawling your fat, black ass through the mud with a rifle or doing an improvisational firing position in a stand off type deal at random times.
Vehicle takedowns, dynamic entries, and good honest rifle work.
No caddies, no BS. Rifle, sling, solid holster and enough ammo in a go bag or ruck. If you just load up on 308 and 45, better be able to haul it all.
Instead of polo shirts and shorts like a walking human NASCAR....flightsuits or nyco BDUs.
It would destroy a lot of preconceived notions a lot of people have about their gear. Hell just schlepping it for a mile or two will determine how much you regret your purchases.
Especially guys that cram garbage on their ill balanced rifle.
Doc Safari
03-04-16, 09:07
As a younger person I was brainwashed into thinking that they were the ultimate patrol longarm.
You too, huh? I remember every training session when I was in law enforcement. The RO would ask the class, "If you could have one gun, etc..." and the answer was always a 12-gauge shotgun.
Before I learned to keep my mouth shut, I'd always answer his question with "assault rifle" before his "expert opinion" corrected me. Guess I was ahead of the curve, because shortly before I left they started the procurement process to buy M4's. LOL.
KalashniKEV
03-04-16, 09:34
Im with you on the p228...
Wow, that's crazy.
I love the P228- been carrying one in the evenings all winter, OWB.
I feel like "3-Gun" should be BUG, Pistol, Carbine.
BUG? Like CCW piece?
Meh.
Maybe if they ever invent 6-Gun.
Because 5-Gun would obviously be Pistol, Carbine, Precision Rifle, Machine Gun, and Grenade Launcher.
(Damn... I guess we'd have to go to 7 different guns before a Shotgun would logically enter the equation...)
wildcard600
03-04-16, 09:52
Wow, that's crazy.
I love the P228- been carrying one in the evenings all winter, OWB.
BUG? Like CCW piece?
Meh.
Maybe if they ever invent 6-Gun.
Because 5-Gun would obviously be Pistol, Carbine, Precision Rifle, Machine Gun, and Grenade Launcher.
(Damn... I guess we'd have to go to 7 different guns before a Shotgun would logically enter the equation...)
At least 8 gun, need to have a SMAW in there before shotgun.
At least 8 gun, need to have a SMAW in there before shotgun.
Cant forget the Riot shield, so that's at least 9.
Or like calling in an Air Strike/Arty
I guess on a budget we could get some kids in a balcony to shoot roman candles at your target once you called it in
Doc Safari
03-04-16, 10:02
When I shot 3-gun I wanted to develop a "seek and destroy" type match. Basically, targets of opportunity would be set up in an arroyo that runs into the desert for several miles, and it would require you, the shooter, to hike the arroyo and destroy each target. I also wanted to create a way to make the target "sense" you and register some sort of electronic "hit", like if it sensed you, it meant you were dead in the real world. The only way to survive the stage was to shoot the target before the sensor caught you. The club didn't like the idea.
I still think it's doable. I'm not sure the technology was there when I hatched the idea, but I'd bet you could rig something up now (although it might be pretty expensive and require someone with some knowledge of electronics).
It was universally accepted that you couldn't reload HK91 brass back in the day.
I personally don't know anyone who tried, but then again it was somewhat of a rare gun in these parts and maybe five or six people in town had them.
I had a PTR91, and I reloaded the brass from it, No problems as far as reloading went.. Finding them, after they were fired was another matter, it would sling the empty's into low earth orbit..
KalashniKEV
03-04-16, 10:16
At least 8 gun, need to have a SMAW in there before shotgun.
That is true, there are still more 7 more relevant weapons than a shotgun.
I would chose AT-4 for the anti-tank stage though.
Or like calling in an Air Strike/Arty
I guess on a budget we could get some kids in a balcony to shoot roman candles at your target once you called it in
If the Army turned GUARD FIST II into a free downloadable video game, they would see recruitment numbers go up AND every brand new Joe would be shit hot on the call for fire.
Instead, we like to keep it all mysterious and under trained, and save if for the EIB lanes like, "Awwww, nah... PRA-vhit... you done said DOWN instead of DROP! Ah hurd it! You a NO-GO at diss station!!"
brickboy240
03-04-16, 10:40
I agree on the P228 grip. It is clubby and not nearly as nice as the grip on the P226 or even the P220. I keep mine because i got it really cheap and for some odd reason, the old W. German P228s have a cult status and keep going up in value. A well made and reliable pistol, yes, but the funky grip is not nearly as nice as other P-series guns of that vintage.
3 gun is like golf for weekend warriors.
I think it would be more productive to do a "longest day" style match.
Like low crawling your fat, black ass through the mud with a rifle or doing an improvisational firing position in a stand off type deal at random times.
Vehicle takedowns, dynamic entries, and good honest rifle work.
No caddies, no BS. Rifle, sling, solid holster and enough ammo in a go bag or ruck. If you just load up on 308 and 45, better be able to haul it all.
Instead of polo shirts and shorts like a walking human NASCAR....flightsuits or nyco BDUs.
It would destroy a lot of preconceived notions a lot of people have about their gear. Hell just schlepping it for a mile or two will determine how much you regret your purchases.
Especially guys that cram garbage on their ill balanced rifle.
Then this may be for you...
http://resurgence3gun.com/
I agree on the P228 grip. It is clubby and not nearly as nice as the grip on the P226 or even the P220. I keep mine because i got it really cheap and for some odd reason, the old W. German P228s have a cult status and keep going up in value. A well made and reliable pistol, yes, but the funky grip is not nearly as nice as other P-series guns of that vintage.
That's pretty much why I keep mine and there's still a part of me that really wants to like.
I'd have to take pics cause its hard to explain. My issue isn't with the grip or angle or size, it's with a part that sticks out on the panel and into my thumb
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Meh.
Maybe if they ever invent 6-Gun.
Because 5-Gun would obviously be Pistol, Carbine, Precision Rifle, Machine Gun, and Grenade Launcher.
(Damn... I guess we'd have to go to 7 different guns before a Shotgun would logically enter the equation...)
7 Gun
Handgun, Carbine, SMG, Precision Rifle, Belt Fed Squad, Grenade Launcher, Back Up / Hold Out Handgun.
We must also consider Full size 5.56 rifle, full size .308 rifle, carbine size .308 as well as .50 BMG applications.
For me it is the Glock, I have owned many and really wanted to like them but just couldn't. I could not get over the bad trigger on them, even aftermarket triggers.
3 gun is like golf for weekend warriors.
I think it would be more productive to do a "longest day" style match.
Like low crawling your fat, black ass through the mud with a rifle or doing an improvisational firing position in a stand off type deal at random times.
Vehicle takedowns, dynamic entries, and good honest rifle work.
No caddies, no BS. Rifle, sling, solid holster and enough ammo in a go bag or ruck. If you just load up on 308 and 45, better be able to haul it all.
Instead of polo shirts and shorts like a walking human NASCAR....flightsuits or nyco BDUs.
It would destroy a lot of preconceived notions a lot of people have about their gear. Hell just schlepping it for a mile or two will determine how much you regret your purchases.
Especially guys that cram garbage on their ill balanced rifle.
I was watching a YouTube video of a three gun competition. I was impressed until the shooter put her empty pistol in the trash can. For some reason the rifles and shotguns never bothered me but this did. Then She ran to the third stage with out a weapon! It was awesome shooting but it drove me nuts she left her weapon behind. For the record her skills were waaaay better than mine. But it's a game. Not realistic at all.
Tavor - Everything about it should have made it perfect for me: Same ammo and mags as my AR-15s, SBR-ish overall length. I just never felt as comfortable shooting it as I did ARs, it felt heavy/overly bulky for the size. I didn't hate it, I wouldn't discourage others from trying one, but I would recommend trying before buying a few times if possible. I sold it, and am going the SBR AR route.
S&W M&P. I sold some Glocks and bought a couple and never really got into them. Sold them, went back to Glock.
Ditto except the shield. Love the shield the rest of line disappointed me.
GREAT thread.... learning lots.
Some of the weapons earlier posters tried to love but couldn't, were on my bucket list years ago. Glad now I didn't spend time/money to buy them.
This thread reminds me of the other thread RE: "Things you learned/do over about guns over the years."
For me, I have reduced my primary handgun type to several copies of the G19 Gen3, although I admit the grip isn't as comfortable as other designs. I REALLY wish it was. Thankfully, I shoot the G19 VERY well after all these years. The platform is solid and platform support is second to none.
I have owned Seecamps in .32 and .380 flavors. I foolishly gave the .32 (custom serial) to a friend after I acquired the 380 version (also custom serial) without test shooting the 380 first. All I can say is OUCH! I won't get rid of it partly because of the custom serial and because there is NO other hideout gun so small in relation to caliber. But definitely can't say I like shooting the thing.
Regarding shotties, I also rid myself of the platform last year, as the only reason I kept the last one even that long was non-gunowning friends of friends wanted to try a "pump". Though, after a few shots, no one wanted to shoot it again (even with reduced recoil rounds). Yep, movie watchers love the cool shick-shick, but no one finds the pump fun after a few rounds. Practically no one ever finishes a whole magtube full of rounds before losing interest and wanting to "shoot the AR." I don't hunt, or skeet, and I got a decent price for my 1992, fully-kitted, original Scattergun Technologies 870 Police Magnum.
FS2000. Cool design but I wish I could love it more. I find the combination thumbhole/grip angle uncomfortable along with the "heavy" trigger pull weight, it's just not super fun. I keep it as it does have a specific place in my armory, and I LOVE the forward ejection that mimics the ejection of naval guns.
Training-wise, I've settled on the G19 and AR anyways. Even now, the AR takes a backseat to handgun training.
I'm trying to minimize the "toys" in my armory. Though still on my bucket list is the new Tavor X95, ...... a reliable (oxymoron?), quality, 5.56mm Krink SBR, ...... and perhaps a G20 for the woods.
Moose-Knuckle
03-06-16, 02:44
Guns You Really Wanted to Love But Just Couldn't
Every other centerfire semiautomatic combat handgun besides GLOCK.
I'm avoiding the HK VP9 cause I know I'll just fall in love with her and have to buy two and invest in a whole new magazine line.
As for shotguns, I've always wanted to venture into the Benelli auto loaders but could never justify the cost. However the very first firearm I purchased the day I turned 18 was a Mossberg 590A1. I will always have a .73 caliber lead slinger if for no other reason than Cpl Hicks and Sarah Conner because one just never knows when a mother f'n xenomorph or a cybernetic organism is going to crash the party.
Ditto except the shield. Love the shield the rest of line disappointed me.
The Shield in 9mm is a perfect balance of power and size in a shoot able gun. I carry mine in the front pocket and have a second I sometimes carry in a belt holster.
The SCAR....I was a part of one of the first USASOC testing groups and I really want to like it.......Didn't happen.
Phillygunguy
03-07-16, 10:58
Sig p239 in 357 way too small 357 Sig a real pita to shoot
Any shotgun
mini14 bought a collapsable stock for it tried to make it tacticool more like tactifool
Beretta px4 storm in 40 cal too bulky
Not a gun but 40 caliber ammo.
tried to like it thinking it's " better than a 9 "
The Shield in 9mm is a perfect balance of power and size in a shoot able gun. I carry mine in the front pocket and have a second I sometimes carry in a belt holster.
Yeah. I really wanted to love the Glock 43. bought one. shot it a few times and sold it. shield shoots better in that size of a pistol
Phillygunguy
03-07-16, 12:48
Forgot to add one
M&P 9 couldn't get used to the mushey trigger
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I had an 1858 Remington Army replica.
Most inaccurate weapon ever. Very disappointing.
The ps90. Wanted one some kinda bad, finally got to handle one. Felt like a gun made for a 4yr old. Glad I didnt buy one.
The fs2000. Actually got to run one. Yeah, looks cool feels strange.
Amt backup in 45. Not only miserable to shoot, but a pos as well. Broke three separate times before two boxes of ammo through it. Fixed it the last time, fired 5 shots to prove it worked, and sold it.
Shotguns. I still have a couple, but don't find any uses for them. About the only ones I had any fun with are my winchester 1887 original in 10ga (totally different in blackpowder), and a saiga 12 full auto.
There's a yearly 3-gun match that's a recon match around here. You don't do a lot of hiking, but you load up for the day in the morning, 6 stages per day. The only thing you are allowed to replenish is water. First day rifle/pistol, 300/100rds, second day shotgun/pistol, 125/100rds.
Usually in October, went to one in August. Ran an m1a that year, medium weight barrel in a weighted pistol grip e2 style stock, and a 1911. Usually a crawling stage, always a stage or two shot from a vehicle. You cannot remove packs for either. Long gun must remain slung all day.
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That's pretty much why I keep mine and there's still a part of me that really wants to like.
I'd have to take pics cause its hard to explain. My issue isn't with the grip or angle or size, it's with a part that sticks out on the panel and into my thumb
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Anyway, got around to taking pics
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160309/8c5bd59f71a999fb45d125aef56637c5.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160309/cf6348ba9279d3c4ff792c41e77af3f4.jpg
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ramairthree
03-10-16, 00:34
Every other centerfire semiautomatic combat handgun besides GLOCK.
I'm avoiding the HK VP9 cause I know I'll just fall in love with her and have to buy two and invest in a whole new magazine line.
As for shotguns, I've always wanted to venture into the Benelli auto loaders but could never justify the cost. However the very first firearm I purchased the day I turned 18 was a Mossberg 590A1. I will always have a .73 caliber lead slinger if for no other reason than Cpl Hicks and Sarah Conner because one just never knows when a mother f'n xenomorph or a cybernetic organism is going to crash the party.
Or a predator.
Under barrel on you AR mount preferred.
'Cause if you have enough mojo to sling 12 gauge at an alien after being a pornstar, run for political office on a "let's kill all the ragheads" platform as a Native American, and also have gone toe to toe with the Warriors, action Jackson, the A team, and Crockett and Tubbs,
Your choice of weapon is good to go and cannot be questioned.
Hell,
He is on par with freaking Al Leong.
That dude has thrown down with Yun Fat, snake plissken, Jeff speakman, mike falling down Douglas, John mclane,
Martin Riggs, jack burton, the A Team, TJ hooker, Simon and Simon, the fall guy, the equalizer, the Knight Rider, Magnum freakin PI, plus The One Mneunomic Ronin John Traven Wick (when he was Ted anyways).
He is on par with freaking Al Leong.
That dude has thrown down with Yun Fat, snake plissken, Jeff speakman, mike falling down Douglas, John mclane,
Martin Riggs, jack burton, the A Team, TJ hooker, Simon and Simon, the fall guy, the equalizer, the Knight Rider, Magnum freakin PI, plus The One Mneunomic Ronin John Traven Wick (when he was Ted anyways).
I have some books he wrote in the early 80s. 100% bad ass. One of the best scenes in "Die Hard."
http://www.everythingaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/AlLeong_1.jpg
Moose-Knuckle
03-10-16, 01:26
Or a predator.
Under barrel on you AR mount preferred.
'Cause if you have enough mojo to sling 12 gauge at an alien after being a pornstar, run for political office on a "let's kill all the ragheads" platform as a Native American, and also have gone toe to toe with the Warriors, action Jackson, the A team, and Crockett and Tubbs,
Your choice of weapon is good to go and cannot be questioned.
Damn skippy!
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1499/25546042622_34be0b2036_z.jpg
Hell,
He is on par with freaking Al Leong.
That dude has thrown down with Yun Fat, snake plissken, Jeff speakman, mike falling down Douglas, John mclane,
Martin Riggs, jack burton, the A Team, TJ hooker, Simon and Simon, the fall guy, the equalizer, the Knight Rider, Magnum freakin PI, plus The One Mneunomic Ronin John Traven Wick (when he was Ted anyways).
The dude was literally in EVERY tv show and movie I watched in my impressionable years. I mean it's amazing that I don't have long hair and a Fu Manchu. Though I'd end up looking like the neighbor in Office Space.
Averageman
03-10-16, 08:13
Every Sig Sauer Rifle I have owned that was made in America.
Total Crap.
ramairthree
03-10-16, 11:07
That office space neighbor dude should have his own action flick.
He wins a million dollar lottery,
Finally gets with two chicks at the same time,
Is interrupted by Mormons at the door,
Then jehovas witnesses at the door,
Then multiple telemarketer calls.
Chicks get mad and leave.
Goes on rampage against temples, Kingdom Halls, and call centers with various contruction tools.
Double boss battle climax against al Leong and Billy who control a cabal of religious and phone cults whose goal is to annoy and interrupt all Americans.
Not much of a plot but at least original and not a crappy remake of 70 s and 80s movies and tv shows.
The office space star can have a cameo.
Not as the office space character.
As a 90 something year old ww2 vet named Lewis that is his grandfather and has a deathbed scene. He leaves him a footlocker of memorabilia, Vat 69, and ww2 NFA bring backs just in time for the boss battle.
Movie title,
Two Bosses at The Same Time
Damn skippy!
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1499/25546042622_34be0b2036_z.jpg
The dude was literally in EVERY tv show and movie I watched in my impressionable years. I mean it's amazing that I don't have long hair and a Fu Manchu. Though I'd end up looking like the neighbor in Office Space.
Glocks.
In a strictly technical, functional sense they're everything I like to see in a hard use weapon. Simple, rugged and reliable. By god I can't get around the sucky ergonomics though.....
MadAngler1
03-10-16, 13:39
HK USP series and the MK 23.
I really really wanted to buy a HK USP or Tactical in .45 ACP as my first handgun when I turned 21 way back in 2001 during the ban years. However, after putting a few hundred rounds downrange, I could not get over the lack of ergonomics. I went with a 1911 and have yet to pick up a decent replacement for a .45 ACP (bought, tried and sold the HK45 compact as well and I find my friend's HK45 full size to be too big for conceal carry compared to a 5" 1911). If HK makes a P30 in .45 ACP in variant 9 with a thumb safety that can be run like a 1911, then I will probably switch. A VP 45 sounds cool as well.
and the Mk23.......bad ergos but I am sure it runs great suppressed and works as advertised
brickboy240
03-10-16, 14:09
The USP in the 40/9mm size is a really nice shooter but I agree, the 45 caliber USP variants are thick, clubby and chunky in the hand.
HK USP series and the MK 23.
I really really wanted to buy a HK USP or Tactical in .45 ACP as my first handgun when I turned 21 way back in 2001 during the ban years. However, after putting a few hundred rounds downrange, I could not get over the lack of ergonomics. I went with a 1911 and have yet to pick up a decent replacement for a .45 ACP (bought, tried and sold the HK45 compact as well and I find my friend's HK45 full size to be too big for conceal carry compared to a 5" 1911). If HK makes a P30 in .45 ACP in variant 9 with a thumb safety that can be run like a 1911, then I will probably switch. A VP 45 sounds cool as well.
and the Mk23.......bad ergos but I am sure it runs great suppressed and works as advertised
What?!? The USP was the first handgun to combine Browning and Walther features. And comparing it to a 1911?
Slide release is in the same spot, HK is a little easier to actuate.
Safety is in the same spot (assuming V1), HK also functions as a decocker.
Magazine release is in nearly the same spot, only it's a better setup and it's ambi.
The USP revolutionized ergonomics, people have been copying them ever since.
Granted a USP45 is going to be beefier than a 1911 but that is because you are gaining a 12 round magazine capacity. If you made a 1911 with a 12 round magazine capacity it would also be huge.
The Mk23 has nearly identical ergonomics and everything is well placed. It is just a huge handgun.
VTAC M&P 9, loved the concept and bought the gun. The front sight fell off first time out to shoot, the trigger broke like a warm fart in a locker room and I moved onto a better future. I respect Kyle Lamb as a American Patriot and a professional, but Smith and Wesson let him down on this firearm. Went to the VP9 and despite MAC's findings and subsequent tantrum I am sticking with it.
I want a Mk. 23 to this day because of......reasons.
I know and don't care.
I just haven't gotten round to it
Moose-Knuckle
03-11-16, 02:54
That office space neighbor dude should have his own action flick.
He wins a million dollar lottery,
Finally gets with two chicks at the same time,
Is interrupted by Mormons at the door,
Then jehovas witnesses at the door,
Then multiple telemarketer calls.
Chicks get mad and leave.
Goes on rampage against temples, Kingdom Halls, and call centers with various contruction tools.
Double boss battle climax against al Leong and Billy who control a cabal of religious and phone cults whose goal is to annoy and interrupt all Americans.
Not much of a plot but at least original and not a crappy remake of 70 s and 80s movies and tv shows.
The office space star can have a cameo.
Not as the office space character.
As a 90 something year old ww2 vet named Lewis that is his grandfather and has a deathbed scene. He leaves him a footlocker of memorabilia, Vat 69, and ww2 NFA bring backs just in time for the boss battle.
Movie title,
Two Bosses at The Same Time
Sounds epic!
Moose-Knuckle
03-11-16, 02:57
Went to the VP9 and despite MAC's findings and subsequent tantrum I am sticking with it.
Did MAC post this on his FB or YT pages?
LAV has dubbed the VP9 a "death ray".
Did MAC post this on his FB or YT pages?
LAV has dubbed the VP9 a "death ray".
He lost his mind temporarily after the VP9 had an issue and threw it around like Jack Nicholson wielded a hatchet in the Shining, but with less conviction. The video was placed on youtube and bore a resemblance to a Rosie O'Donnell whose spoon was taken before she could get to the icecream. I am hoping that he was able to receive some therapy to set things right again. The VP9 is in fact a deathray!!
MadAngler1
03-13-16, 21:08
What?!? The USP was the first handgun to combine Browning and Walther features. And comparing it to a 1911?
Slide release is in the same spot, HK is a little easier to actuate.
Safety is in the same spot (assuming V1), HK also functions as a decocker.
Magazine release is in nearly the same spot, only it's a better setup and it's ambi.
The USP revolutionized ergonomics, people have been copying them ever since.
Granted a USP45 is going to be beefier than a 1911 but that is because you are gaining a 12 round magazine capacity. If you made a 1911 with a 12 round magazine capacity it would also be huge.
The Mk23 has nearly identical ergonomics and everything is well placed. It is just a huge handgun.
I still believe the USP series has the ergonomics of a brick, namely when it comes to the grip not so much the slide stop and mag release. Yes, the USP 45 has a thicker grip due to it's 12 round magazine but I can control a Para Ordnance, STI 2011 or Caspian high cap frame much better than I can the USP or Mark 23. You can't ride your thumb on top of the USP's or HK 45's decocker like you can on a 1911.......technically you can on variant 9 but it's not the same.
I love my P30, and I wish HK would come out with a HK 45C variant with the P30's grip. However, I can draw from a holster and shoot matches better with a Glock or 1911 than I can with my HK45C (that I sold) and a USP 45 that I tried many moons ago. I love HK, but the USP (and even the HK45C) do not work for me.
Any Glock. Just can't get used to the grip angle. I suppose i could if i ditched all of my other handguns and went solely to Glocks, but i like my HK's and Beretta's too much.
Yea I generally agree. I put up with my glock 20 because it is 10mm but overall I just don't like the guns. I respect them, they are very basic and work, they just don't have any soul. The M&P series and the HK polymers are just much better guns with better ergonomics to me.
Past that the ruger 22/45. I wanted to like it as it is a full sized 22 pistol but the take apart is just too stupid. The idea of spending 100 bucks on a pistol that is under 400 to fix it by making the take apart doable without a fight and removing the mag release just seems like a waste.
Now the one I'm sure I'll get hate on. The AK series of guns. It doesn't seem like anyone makes one worth a shit for the civilian market unless you go custom. The ergonomics are not good for a south paw either. Anyway it seems like almost everyone that has them has really bad experiences with the lack of build quality. We mock companies like olympic arms for bad quality ar-15s but honestly I've seen far better stuff come from them when compared to century arms and others. I decided to try the AK-47's again and bought a new arsenal slr-107 back in January. I need to call them next week and get an RMA. It is painfully clear that this gun had no QC work done to it. The front sight is canted, the rear sight is canted in the other direction, the magwell is tight, and the mag release is angled. With the front sight moved all the way over it is still shooting over 6 inches off at 25 yards. Honestly I wish I had either skipped it this time or looked at one of those franken ar's that use ak mags. The sad thing is arsenal is the one people generally recommend as the good one(other than saying pay like 2 grand for a rifle dynamics or something). Another thing that gets me is that it was more expensive than a good ar.
The last one that really comes to mind is the ACR rifle. I was really interested in this gun before bushmaster bought it and it went downhill from there. The price went up like a grand over what was expected. Then the extra parts that the weapon was designed for never came(barrels, conversions, etc). Also I've held the gun and it is really heavy.
I still believe the USP series has the ergonomics of a brick, namely when it comes to the grip not so much the slide stop and mag release. Yes, the USP 45 has a thicker grip due to it's 12 round magazine but I can control a Para Ordnance, STI 2011 or Caspian high cap frame much better than I can the USP or Mark 23. You can't ride your thumb on top of the USP's or HK 45's decocker like you can on a 1911.......technically you can on variant 9 but it's not the same.
So it isn't so much a case of ergonomics than it is a case of "doesn't fit your hands." Why would I want to ride my thumb on a decocker? It's enough that I can easily activate it without changing my grip. There is no need to ride it.
Also UPSs are polymer vs. a Para 1911, so there is more material as a result. This makes a thicker handgun that might not fit you. It's a lot like how many females just don't fit a fullsize 1911 which is how the military ended up with a Beretta. That's doesn't mean the ergonomics of a 1911 suck.
There are some guns that are sorta large for me, the FNP45 is a bit large for me, but that doesn't mean it has bad ergonomics. Feels like I'm holding a brick, but because it actually has great ergonomics, I can still operate it and access all the controls without breaking my shooting grip.
Doc Safari
03-14-16, 09:16
I decided to try the AK-47's again and bought a new arsenal slr-107 back in January. I need to call them next week and get an RMA. It is painfully clear that this gun had no QC work done to it. The front sight is canted, the rear sight is canted in the other direction, the magwell is tight, and the mag release is angled. With the front sight moved all the way over it is still shooting over 6 inches off at 25 yards. y.
I've heard so much about Arsenal Ak's over the years that I honestly can't believe they are still able to sell AK's. Maybe they're a notch or two above Century, but you're right: nobody makes a good civilian AK. Either the QC is crappy or indifferent at best, or the FCG is poorly made, or SOMETHING. It took me a couple of years to get good ones when I had my AK's. When I sold them to buy M4's I went with a quality brand (BCM) and didn't have anywhere near the stress as I had when trying to find a good AK.
For me an H&K HK45c.
Biggest gripe, its not for my hand, or my friends. The Safety/decocker chronically plagues me getting a good grip with out it interfering. Additionally I find it large for only holding 8 rounds, regardless of being a 45.
I also had a USP 45c I disliked and sold, for many of the same reasons. I should have learned, guess I didn't.
Ultimately if it was a 600$ I would care less, being I have 1000$+ tied up in it I am less thrilled.
I've heard so much about Arsenal Ak's over the years that I honestly can't believe they are still able to sell AK's. Maybe they're a notch or two above Century, but you're right: nobody makes a good civilian AK. Either the QC is crappy or indifferent at best, or the FCG is poorly made, or SOMETHING. It took me a couple of years to get good ones when I had my AK's. When I sold them to buy M4's I went with a quality brand (BCM) and didn't have anywhere near the stress as I had when trying to find a good AK.
I've been pretty lucky with AKs. At the height I had almost 50. Only had a few boogers in the batch. Got a old Egyptian Maadi from a well known builder that had 2 o'clock front sights and I sent it back. Ironically my CAI import Maadi has been 100% from day one. But during the great Obama gun sale, I grabbed everything that wasn't "original receiver" and sold them all for 4 to 5 times what I had paid for them. Now I'm down to about a dozen AKs or so.
Never had a single problem with any of my Arsenals, Russian or Bulgarian.
I've heard so much about Arsenal Ak's over the years that I honestly can't believe they are still able to sell AK's. Maybe they're a notch or two above Century, but you're right: nobody makes a good civilian AK. Either the QC is crappy or indifferent at best, or the FCG is poorly made, or SOMETHING. It took me a couple of years to get good ones when I had my AK's. When I sold them to buy M4's I went with a quality brand (BCM) and didn't have anywhere near the stress as I had when trying to find a good AK.
I bought the AK and a case of ammo to try something different. I have a few BCM guns, an LMT, and some franken ones that are generally at least made from quality parts. It really surprises me that no one is making something even to the level of your standard ar's. Give me a vendor that is the level of cmmg, rra, stag, etc and I'd be very happy. Pretty much any standard US company that makes guns that I can think of does a better job.
I've been pretty lucky with AKs. At the height I had almost 50. Only had a few boogers in the batch. Got a old Egyptian Maadi from a well known builder that had 2 o'clock front sights and I sent it back. Ironically my CAI import Maadi has been 100% from day one. But during the great Obama gun sale, I grabbed everything that wasn't "original receiver" and sold them all for 4 to 5 times what I had paid for them. Now I'm down to about a dozen AKs or so.
Never had a single problem with any of my Arsenals, Russian or Bulgarian.
To be fair the gun does shoot, it just doesn't hit the paper. It does remind me of the top shot show. I remember hearing an interview with one of the people on it and they mentioned how much of the competition was cut with the crazy seal dude screwing up a challenge that wasn't shown. They said one of their arsenals was shooting way off as well. Gotta laugh at arsenal not even checking over the guns they gave a TV show.
I've seen some bad colts and other ar rifles(as well as other types of guns) but they never seem to have the failure rate of the AK guns. The amount of people I've seen at the range that have issues with them is insane. Most have been century arms guns from my memory. I know as of late I've seen issues with I think DDI and I've heard one of the local gun shops talk about how many they had to send back. I'm planning on taking pictures of mine before I send it back. If I get a chance I'll post pictures. The rear sight mount isn't machined right and it is a good ways off.
I live in VT and wanted to get a Century Factiry SBR AK. The standard AK I saw in the shop about a month ago with the new bolt hold open was a POS! I'm took two large men to disengage the f-ing safety. I told the shop owner and he said it would take too long to get it fixed. I lost I treat quirky.
buckshot1220
03-14-16, 20:38
Benelli M4 - I thought this was gonna be awesome, and it kind of is, but served little to no purpose for me for such an expensive piece. If I need more than a handgun I'm grabbing an AR. If I'm going to hunt, I'm grabbing a shotgun that's better suited to hunting than that thing. I thought it would "fill a void," but it just filled a void in my safe and created a void in my wallet. Sold it after a few years of ownership and never looked back.
Underfolder AKs - ya they look cool, and your friends will think it is cool, but in reality it is an ergonomic nightmare and your shoulder will hate you after a range session. Sold and never looked back.
HK handguns - I know people will disagree, and that's fine, but I was devoted to these things for the better part of six years before moving along so hear me out. A reliable gun, no doubt. I just never really got comfortable with them. I had DA/SA initially and then went to LEM, of multiple weights, finally culminating in the purchase of a P30L several years back. I thought it would be my dream gun, spent several months working with it before calling it quits. Finally sold all of them off, which netted me a nice chunk of change for more ammo. Don't get me wrong, they run like sh!t through a goose, but the guns just didn't fit me. Mediocre trigger, size:capacity ratio, high bore axis, high cost...something still draws me to them at gun shows and I have to remind myself that it won't be what I think it will be. I may be doomed to repeat this one though. Time will tell...
buckshot1220
03-14-16, 20:44
I bought the AK and a case of ammo to try something different. I have a few BCM guns, an LMT, and some franken ones that are generally at least made from quality parts. It really surprises me that no one is making something even to the level of your standard ar's. Give me a vendor that is the level of cmmg, rra, stag, etc and I'd be very happy. Pretty much any standard US company that makes guns that I can think of does a better job.
To be fair the gun does shoot, it just doesn't hit the paper. It does remind me of the top shot show. I remember hearing an interview with one of the people on it and they mentioned how much of the competition was cut with the crazy seal dude screwing up a challenge that wasn't shown. They said one of their arsenals was shooting way off as well. Gotta laugh at arsenal not even checking over the guns they gave a TV show.
I've seen some bad colts and other ar rifles(as well as other types of guns) but they never seem to have the failure rate of the AK guns. The amount of people I've seen at the range that have issues with them is insane. Most have been century arms guns from my memory. I know as of late I've seen issues with I think DDI and I've heard one of the local gun shops talk about how many they had to send back. I'm planning on taking pictures of mine before I send it back. If I get a chance I'll post pictures. The rear sight mount isn't machined right and it is a good ways off.
To be honest the most reliable and cost-effective way to get a "good" AK is to buy a ban-era all factory gun like a MAK, SAR or Hungarian SA85 (imported by KBI), de-ban and 922r yourself.
Benelli M4 - I thought this was gonna be awesome, and it kind of is, but served little to no purpose for me for such an expensive piece. If I need more than a handgun I'm grabbing an AR. If I'm going to hunt, I'm grabbing a shotgun that's better suited to hunting than that thing. I thought it would "fill a void," but it just filled a void in my safe and created a void in my wallet. Sold it after a few years of ownership and never looked back.
When they first came out I needed one really bad. Then found out the reality of the civie stock deal. Then looked at the numbers for what it would cost to rebuild a civie into correct configuration. Thankfully before I did I shot one. I had forgotten how nice M1S90s are compared to any gas operated shotgun including the Benelli M4. I also quickly got over the tacticool sliding stock after realizing it is a feature that will probably never be required by my wants and needs. End result I saved something like a couple thousand dollars that I was ready to allocate towards my M4 project.
Underfolder AKs - ya they look cool, and your friends will think it is cool, but in reality it is an ergonomic nightmare and your shoulder will hate you after a range session. Sold and never looked back.
I have ONE in my reference collection because I need one. 7.62x39 doesn't really punish the shoulder, even when using side folding wire stocks which are worse. But that underfolder has to have one of the crappiest cheek welds on the planet. Only the Uzi is possibly worse. Polytech red side folder and modern 100 series side folders thankfully exist.
HK handguns - I know people will disagree, and that's fine, but I was devoted to these things for the better part of six years before moving along so hear me out. A reliable gun, no doubt. I just never really got comfortable with them. I had DA/SA initially and then went to LEM, of multiple weights, finally culminating in the purchase of a P30L several years back. I thought it would be my dream gun, spent several months working with it before calling it quits. Finally sold all of them off, which netted me a nice chunk of change for more ammo. Don't get me wrong, they run like sh!t through a goose, but the guns just didn't fit me. Mediocre trigger, size:capacity ratio, high bore axis, high cost...something still draws me to them at gun shows and I have to remind myself that it won't be what I think it will be. I may be doomed to repeat this one though. Time will tell...
I grew up on revolvers and SIG handguns so I never got into LEM triggers. In fact I have one USP that I converted from LEM back to Variant 1 because I am so used to SA/DA setups. HKs are basically my inclement weather handguns but I definitely prefer a SIG trigger, the sole exception is the HK P7 but that is a different discussion completely.
buckshot1220
03-14-16, 22:42
I have ONE in my reference collection because I need one. 7.62x39 doesn't really punish the shoulder, even when using side folding wire stocks which are worse. But that underfolder has to have one of the crappiest cheek welds on the planet. Only the Uzi is possibly worse. Polytech red side folder and modern 100 series side folders thankfully exist.
I had forgotten all about the crappy cheek weld. I had wrapped mine in paracord at one point. It was by no means a replacement for a legitimate stock, but it kept the metal from beating up the side of my face too terribly.
-The Semi-auto RPD....beautiful, cool, belt fed, runs on cheap 7.62x39, historical, but has the trigger of a Rossi revolver..
-M1A...pain to maintain, charging handle and scope mouting sucks
-Glocks...carry them, trust my life to them..but they have no soul...and I never liked the grip
-G3/PTR-91...Why has no one made a damn stock SHORT ENOUGH for people under 6ft 5??? Oh, and the trigger sucks and it has no bolt hold open
-AR in 9mm..count your lucky stars if it's actually reliable. Has the recoil/muzzle jump of a blow-back .45 acp..much more than a 5.56..
-Tavor...two pounds heavier than an AR..and it feel's like six of the eight pounds is on the back..trigger is also meh...(it's a Glock trigger) and the whole thing is very, very, wide
-Anything .22 LR...jams, misfires...duds...rimfires suck...
-G3/PTR-91...Why has no one made a damn stock SHORT ENOUGH for people under 6ft 5??? Oh, and the trigger sucks and it has no bolt hold open
Still better than any AK trigger on the planet.
MountainRaven
03-15-16, 01:53
Still better than any AK trigger on the planet.
Are you trying to hurt the ALG AK-T's feelings? Because this is how you hurt the ALG AK-T's feelings.
Are you trying to hurt the ALG AK-T's feelings? Because this is how you hurt the ALG AK-T's feelings.
Not really, just pointing out how common it is for people to complain about the HK trigger but then say nothing about the AK trigger. You also don't hear anyone complain that the AK doesn't have a bolt hold open and only a few comment on the rock in magazine setup.
People love to hate HKs because they are expensive German guns, but then nobody says anything about AKs except how "handy" they are sometimes. Few seem to realize the HK trigger is the way it is for military drop test specifications.
Some people need to appreciate what a gun does well and leave it at that. The HK G3 series is probably the closest thing made with the reliability of an AK and accuracy of an AR and all without a gas system. Really only the SIG 550 series does it better and you pay for that kind of performance.
The HK is the most controllable .308 in select fire which is why you find so many "semi only" dedicated M-14s and FALs. Of course with recent developments with the SR-25 series, HK probably can't keep the title.
People shoot ARs and then complain when other rifles aren't ARs.
FALs are too big and heavy, rock in magazines suck, adjustable gas system is confusing, etc. Well, it's not an AR and it's not meant to be one.
HK are too big, trigger is heavier, there is no bolt hold open and the charging handle is awkward compared to what I'm used to. Well, it's not an AR and it's not meant to be one.
AKs have trigger slap sometimes, safety is a big clunky, crappy thing, rock in magazines are stupid and stocks are so short I feel like I'm shooting a kiddie rifle. Well, it's not an AR and it's not meant to be one.
Funny thing is, when you have been shooting the HK rifle since 1983, you tend to shoot it pretty well despite the heavy trigger. You have no problem charging it or doing magazine changes or operating the safety at all.
And when it comes time to shoot an AR, you don't complain about how crappy A1 sights are compared to a diopter sight or how there is no QD mount for the old A1s, or how vulnerable old AR mags are compared to old HK mags, because after all, it's an AR and it's not meant to be an HK.
I just accept rifles for what they do and can't do and shoot them accordingly based upon my needs.
Still better than any AK trigger on the planet.
I disagree.
Most semi-auto G3 style triggers are 8-10 pounds, and long, after take up.
The Tapco G2 trigger I've had in a few AK's was superior. Much lighter, more feedback too. Also much easier to change grips, which affects your trigger pull.
You sure can't change the "Navy" style pistol grip on a G3 for $20.
As to the other points. I don't mind rocking in mags on the G3 or AK at all. Lets me skip the "pull" step I have to add for AR's.
The G3's by PTR are better than ever right now. 16 or 18 inch slim-profile barrels with proper flutes, picatinny rails mounted on receiver, and finally they have the paddle mag release on them. But ever since I got the Armalite DEF-10 for the same price I don't need one. The only thing the PTR91 can do better than the Ar-10 is run cheap Russian .308 ammo. Could probably go longer without cleaning, too. Mags are 1/4 the price of Magpull .308 AR mags.
Of course I wish the AK had the left-side charging handle, better safety, and bolt hold open. But I still have a love for the AK for what it is. A reliable, powerful, compact, easy to maintain sub-machine gun. It certainly stays off of my "want to love but can't" list.
I'd take an fal over the hk any day.
Both are big, heavy rifles, but they are 30 Cal battle rifles, what did you expect?
OK, the fal trigger is better, but both are battle rifles, so that wasn't an issue.
Mag insertion, meh. While the rock in may be a hair slower, or a hair more complicated, when it's in, it's in. Unlike pulling down to be sure a straight push in mag is locked. Close to a non-issue.
Both charging handles on the left, nice for the right-handed. The hk is farther out there, but rifle time will train it.
Both thumb safeties.
The adjustable gas system was a non-issue. Why? Because you set it in the beginning, and unless you do something extreme, like fill it with mud, or run half charged loads, you don't touch it again.
But, the hk beats the crap out if you. It's like shooting a lightweight bolt rifle.
The m1a definitely shot better and had a better trigger, but more complicated to maintain.
Owning a bolt gun for precision, I'd take the fal of the three.
But, the valmet m78 a friend has would change that.........
Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk
Doc Safari
03-15-16, 13:03
My main objection to the HK was its weight and the fact that it kicked like a 12-gauge scattergun.
HK P7 - Im sorry I sold it but could never be consistent with it. I tried to use it like a striker fired and shoot drills, I was all over the place due to never having a consistent grip I guess. I probably should have practiced with it more.
ramairthree
03-15-16, 16:58
I do have to say, even with the navy group, I feel like I would need to be ET fingers or about 7 feet tall for my thumb to work the safety and my index finger to reach the mag release. I don't think they kick bad at all for 308.
I hate the living shit out of mounting an optic to one that is not a modern variant with an intrinsic upper rail. I hate the cost of getting a wide fore end with bipod legs compared to average AR parts cost.
As for the AK,
A 200$ Chinese one in the early 90s was a great buy.
I mean, my 400$ SP1 I bought in the early 80s would cost like 1000$ in today's money.
ARs seem to have, with exceptions during panics and other political artificial situations,
Remained a reasonable, stable price.
Not so the AK.
When ARs were equipped with basic sights and your accessory options were a sling and carrying handle mount scope,
An AK for half the price was a good deal. Cheap surplus mags always seemed to work, cheap surplus ammo was available, etc.
Especially considering black mag followers and the more easily damaged AR mags made AK reliability have the edge.
Now ARs have endless options, no reliability lag, etc.
Improved service member and LEO training have opened the gap on the ergonomic benefits of the AR over AK.
I mean, pulling an AR mag from a snapped shut LBE pouch vs an AK mag from a chest harness was not all that different.
But people run their guns with superior kit and technique now.
In comparison, today, a 600$ AK, let alone one over 1000$,
With all the mounting let alone co witness hassles, closing gap on basic ammo costs, increased cost gap of quality match type ammo, etc., it has lost a lot of its desirability.
Don't get me wrong, I love the AK.
I have a milled one. Thicker stamped ones like the MAK and NPAP.
Under folders. Wooden stocks. Synthetic stocks. Side folders. One in 5.45. A PSL one in x54r.
I love them the way you love an old 1969 Chevy step side pickup with a 3 on the tree manual and a 350 with a four barrel that ran good in 1985 when it cost a thousand bucks.
Which was not a bad deal when it compared to getting getting a new one for 10 grand.
But in 2016 they want the same price for that old truck they do for a new one.
I'm going to add a few after reading and thinking more.
The AK for all of the reasons listed by ramairthree. I seem to go through cycle where I want an AK so i'll buy one and trick it out only to shoot it a few times, say meh and sell it.
Same thing with the 1911. I'll really want one and buy one, but as soon as I go to the range I'll shoot a few mags out of it and then go to my Glock's, HK's, or other polymer wunder gun and then list the 1911 for sale. I respect the platform and the history, but it just doesn't do it for me no mater how many times I revisit it.
The Scar 16s. I shot a select fire model with when they first were announced when the FN rep has one and after I just had to have one. So I bought one and sold it 2 weeks later. For the price I paid I couldn't justify what it costs as it really didn't do anything better than my AR's. Now I would like to try one again with the KDG and other aftermarket upgrades, but once again what is a $3500+ Scar going to do better than a $2K SR15 or (insert brand here)?
Doc Safari
05-20-16, 10:39
Arsenal AK's
Lately I've been thinking about getting another AK. Years ago I had several SAR-1's and a couple-three-four Arsenals. During the early 2000's Arsenal of Bulgaria/Las Vegas was considered by most to be the top of the line brand. I guess most people still do.
It dawned on me after having not owned an AK for many years that I needed to decide which brand to buy, and I remembered that back in the day several people in this area (including me) owned Arsenals, with mixed results.
I thought my Romanian SAR-1's were "meh" and basically throwaways, but I drooled over the Arsenal AK's I saw. Clearly these were the Cadillac of Kalashnikovs. I literally ate Ramen and dollar menu McDonalds hamburgers for months to afford my Arsenal AK's. In short, I really wanted to love Arsenal AK's.
I had an Arsenal SLR107FR, stamped, and an SAM7R, milled. Both had to be sent back under warranty to correct canted sights. Just looking at them the sights appeared straight, but were off by enough to make them shoot way to one side or the other even with the front windage drum all the way to one side.
This kind of soured me on Arsenal AK's. Even after they were fixed I considered them "tainted." Other Arsenals I owned were OK, but I ended up selling all my AK's when I switched to M4's. Best decision I ever made in the firearms game, I decided.
Talking to friends who owned AK's, and reading many many threads on the net, I've come to the conclusion that Arsenals can suffer from the same things that plague any brand of AK, even though the finish on them is generally much more attractive when brand new. Since Arsenal charges a premium price, their product should be of much superior quality to other variants, in my book.
After reading the thread on TOS about how durable WASR's are (surprised me!), and how well they hold up even though a lot of people consider them an "entry level" AK, I think if I buy another AK it may be a WASR or other lower-priced variant.
It's not that Arsenals are worse than other AK's, but the fact they are much more expensive than others for basically the same crapshoot of problems, I'm afraid I have to relegate Arsenal AK's to the status of firearms I really wanted to love, but just couldn't.
If I buy another AK, it won't be a premium-priced Arsenal.
Arsenal AK's
Lately I've been thinking about getting another AK. Years ago I had several SAR-1's and a couple-three-four Arsenals. During the early 2000's Arsenal of Bulgaria/Las Vegas was considered by most to be the top of the line brand. I guess most people still do.
It dawned on me after having not owned an AK for many years that I needed to decide which brand to buy, and I remembered that back in the day several people in this area (including me) owned Arsenals, with mixed results.
I thought my Romanian SAR-1's were "meh" and basically throwaways, but I drooled over the Arsenal AK's I saw. Clearly these were the Cadillac of Kalashnikovs. I literally ate Ramen and dollar menu McDonalds hamburgers for months to afford my Arsenal AK's. In short, I really wanted to love Arsenal AK's.
I had an Arsenal SLR107FR, stamped, and an SAM7R, milled. Both had to be sent back under warranty to correct canted sights. Just looking at them the sights appeared straight, but were off by enough to make them shoot way to one side or the other even with the front windage drum all the way to one side.
This kind of soured me on Arsenal AK's. Even after they were fixed I considered them "tainted." Other Arsenals I owned were OK, but I ended up selling all my AK's when I switched to M4's. Best decision I ever made in the firearms game, I decided.
Talking to friends who owned AK's, and reading many many threads on the net, I've come to the conclusion that Arsenals can suffer from the same things that plague any brand of AK, even though the finish on them is generally much more attractive when brand new. Since Arsenal charges a premium price, their product should be of much superior quality to other variants, in my book.
After reading the thread on TOS about how durable WASR's are (surprised me!), and how well they hold up even though a lot of people consider them an "entry level" AK, I think if I buy another AK it may be a WASR or other lower-priced variant.
It's not that Arsenals are worse than other AK's, but the fact they are much more expensive than others for basically the same crapshoot of problems, I'm afraid I have to relegate Arsenal AK's to the status of firearms I really wanted to love, but just couldn't.
If I buy another AK, it won't be a premium-priced Arsenal.
I'm not sure why people consider WASRS to be less reliable. Good barrels, good receivers, over all good parts that arnt any better or worse then any other E. European AK. Century screws up the mag well opening but that's done here not at the factory. Their finish sucks but I never cared much about finish. Most of my guns are finish challenged anyway.
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Doc Safari
05-20-16, 13:23
I'm not sure why people consider WASRS to be less reliable. Good barrels, good receivers, over all good parts that arnt any better or worse then any other E. European AK. Century screws up the mag well opening but that's done here not at the factory. Their finish sucks but I never cared much about finish. Most of my guns are finish challenged anyway.
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Are WASR's still made/imported? Or do you have to scare up a used one somewhere? Honestly it's been almost ten years since I cared anything about AK's so I'm kind of out of the loop.
Neh they're still around but obviously at a higher price then what they were 10 years ago. Century got a little better with the mag well but you should still check for canted sights
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Doc Safari
05-20-16, 13:25
Neh they're still around but obviously at a higher price then what they were 10 years ago. Century got a little better with the mag well but you should still check for canted sights
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If I remember right the way to check for canted sights is to shoulder the gun with the muzzle pointing down, then when you throw it up to your eye the sights should be perfectly aligned with no fudging. Is that the case? I always just got lucky with most of mine.
Sight post itself may not be aligned and there is some room for a little bit of cant. I do what you said but I look at the ears. When one is more visible then the other it's canted. A little bit isn't a big deal, you'll have to sight it in anyway. But sometimes you look at them and they almost look like "c" this.
I have 2 Arsenals and both are canted bad. There was enough room to sight in and I never got around to having them straightened
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WASRs are dried up for the next few months. As far as Arsenals... they're the only AK's I have any interest in buying at this point. They come with what I want out of the box, which is pretty much the price difference between them and cheaper AK's, and as long as it zeroes, I couldn't care less about canted parts. Luckily, none of mine are canted to any appreciable degree.
And on topic, the only guns I've actively tried to like are M&P handguns and pretty much any DA revolver. Just don't like either of them.
Talking to friends who owned AK's, and reading many many threads on the net, I've come to the conclusion that Arsenals can suffer from the same things that plague any brand of AK, even though the finish on them is generally much more attractive when brand new. Since Arsenal charges a premium price, their product should be of much superior quality to other variants, in my book.
Something else to consider regarding price.
Many affordable AKs were made in what were still for the most part "state factories" by workers getting "we were communists a few years ago" wages. And a lot of the other "under $500" Aks were parts kit guns.
I've got some Bulgarian 74s that were mint parts kit built on Nodak receivers and they sure didn't cost $1000. And when Arsenals first came out there was a time you could get one of them for $500 (when other AKs were only $250) but that was when they still had a surplus of factory parts from the cold war days.
The reason Arsenals are expensive is because you have to build them, import them and then rebuild them. Compared to other rebuilt imports, Arsenals are a higher grade rifle but nor perfect. Of course "perfect AK" is something of an oxymoron considering the way they are manufactured is part of the entire point of an AK rifle.
If you really want an AK that is perfect you probably need to hunt down a Kassner import Hungarian or a Chinese Polytech, that said the Russian Saiga Legion rifles were really, really nice. I've also got some Polish kit builds on Nodaks and those are also really high quality rifles. But I also got lucky with my Egyptian Maadi for about $200 a long, long time ago.
I'd also rather have a Polish or Bulgarian "kit build" rifle than an AR from DPMS, Olympic or a dozen other manufacturers. Lots of crap grade ARs out there too.
Moose-Knuckle
05-21-16, 01:51
Arsenal AK's
Lately I've been thinking about getting another AK.
Watch this interview of Jim Fuller. He doesn't hold back and tells it like it is and why AKs cost what they do, as a manufacture he even tells people to go find a preban CHICOM rifle or just get an Arsenal.
https://www.full30.com/video/f0af39b33b9657c66f7fa5839e43a4be
If I was going to just now get into AKs or get back into AKs and only wanted one I'd get one of his. Custom from the ground up.
Doc Safari
12-22-16, 16:43
Arsenal SA M5
I had a ban style and a no-ban style Arsenal SA M5 with the milled receiver in .223.
I should add these to my "guns I really wanted to like but couldn't."
Both had many failures. I tried different magazines, different ammo, thorough cleaning, etc.
I bought the guns to shoot brass-cased .223 during periods when 7.62 was scarce. I wanted to avoid Russian or other steel-cased .223 to save wear and tear on the bolt face since spare parts were pretty scarce for these.
I never did definitively diagnose the reliability issues, so I got rid of both guns. I later learned that people were having their chambers polished and that seemed to work. The problem is that brass cases are softer and hug the walls of the chamber better than steel cases. Well, being Combloc manufacture, the Bulgarians didn't bother to make their chambers highly polished. They would have worked fine with steel-cased ammo but were jam-o-matics since I only used good quality brass-cased .223. The brass cases were sticking in the chamber.
I sold one of them to a dealer at a gun show--and I warned him it was unreliable.
Months later I ran into him again and he said, "You told me that gun was unreliable but it runs like a sewing machine with me! It eats up that Russian ammo like french fries."
That's when the little bell went off in my head that those guns were made to shoot steel cased ammo, and I did some research on the 'net and found out people were having the identical problem I was until they had the chamber polished.
That was pretty much exactly ten years ago. I hope I remember all the details correctly and didn't leave anything out.
I sold a fixed-carry handle Colt Law Enforcement Carbine to get the no-ban style SA M5, so I was PISSED it wasn't reliable. IIRC the problem was mostly failures to extract. There could have been other failures but I distinctly remember that guy saying it was reliable with steel-cased ammo.
RetroRevolver77
12-22-16, 18:06
I've found that I don't really love any guns that much any more. They all have their drawbacks, things that could have been designed better. Though I have a well round collection, I also am not that excited about any of it. I can see good and bad aspects of just about any weapon honestly. Blast rounds down range, sigh, blast more rounds down range, pick up my brass or leave it- then go home. Unreliable rifles above all else really irk me though.
Ruger MKIII .22. Takedown is awkward, and reassembly can be frustrating, having to hold the pistol at odd angles to get mainspring housing back in. I cheated and bought and installed the Majestic Arms Speed Strip Kit. Quality product and worth the money.
Ruger MKIII .22. Takedown is awkward, and reassembly can be frustrating, having to hold the pistol at odd angles to get mainspring housing back in. I cheated and bought and installed the Majestic Arms Speed Strip Kit. Quality product and worth the money.
I am glad I didnt buy one. Mk IV corrects all that
I am glad I didnt buy one. Mk IV corrects all that
The one we own is the 1949-1999 special edition 50 year model. Good shooter. I also have the S&W Victory with the take down screw. Some folks complain of the screw working it's way loose. I put a small O Ring rubber washer on it and no problems.
I still prefer my 1941 manufactured Iver Johnson Arms & Cycle Works Sealed 8 Shot 22 top break. My Dad bought it brand new in the Fall of 1941. Still in great shape with 98% of the original blue on it. Also a great shooter.
I miss the old Iver Johnson cowboy gun .22....
Arsenal SA M5
I had a ban style and a no-ban style Arsenal SA M5 with the milled receiver in .223.
A Bulgy 5.56 AK is one of my picks too. When the SLR-106s first came out, I immediately ordered one, I overpaid too. I was really stoked about a 5.56 AK though, I had visions of it being my new "go to" rifle because I was still a huge AK guy at the time because ARs were, naturally, "too unreliable" to be trusted. I got the thing and thought it was super cool, but didn't actually get around to firing it. Then the reports of reliability and QC issues started trickling out. I was concerned, but because I had a "BD" prefix in my serial number I was told that mine was produced after Arsenal corrected the problems, but that seemed odd to me because I bought mine within days of their release on the market and it was some time before Arsenal even conceded that there were actually issues with the early 106s. My enthusiasm for the gun really fell off. Some years went by before I actually fired the thing, when I finally did, lo and behold, failures to feed. I might take it out again someday to just do some blasting, but I have no interest in it as anything other than a novelty. I've debated selling it several times but even after recently being discontinued they don't seem to have appreciated much in value.
My other picks are the Kel-Tec Sub-2000 in .40 - which I thought was cool due to the folding feature, but found it surprisingly un-fun to shoot, I sold it not long after the first and only range trip with it. And the Smith & Wesson Shield. Even without the rampant reliability problems I just shot that gun terribly for some reason.
Mine is the 50 AE Desert Eagle. When it was first introduced, I wanted one so bad, it hurt. Then I got to shoot one. Too big for my hand and I just couldn't find a grip that let me control the recoil. When it made its debut on the silver screen and became stupid popular the Pants Falling Off crowd, what was left of my lust turned to utter disdain
A Bulgy 5.56 AK is one of my picks too. When the SLR-106s first came out, I immediately ordered one, I overpaid too. I was really stoked about a 5.56 AK though, I had visions of it being my new "go to" rifle because I was still a huge AK guy at the time because ARs were, naturally, "too unreliable" to be trusted. I got the thing and thought it was super cool, but didn't actually get around to firing it. Then the reports of reliability and QC issues started trickling out. I was concerned, but because I had a "BD" prefix in my serial number I was told that mine was produced after Arsenal corrected the problems, but that seemed odd to me because I bought mine within days of their release on the market and it was some time before Arsenal even conceded that there were actually issues with the early 106s. My enthusiasm for the gun really fell off. Some years went by before I actually fired the thing, when I finally did, lo and behold, failures to feed. I might take it out again someday to just do some blasting, but I have no interest in it as anything other than a novelty. I've debated selling it several times but even after recently being discontinued they don't seem to have appreciated much in value.
I've got two SLR 106FRs. The first was is a BD Series 22xx. Probably 2000 rounds through it and no ejection problems or double feeds. Maybe I got lucky. The only issue with is with the mag release lever. Apply pressure from the left side of the weapon and it doesn't like to more. Apply pressure from the right side and works like a charm on all mags. Go figure....??
I've got two SLR 106FRs. The first was is a BD Series 22xx. Probably 2000 rounds through it and no ejection problems or double feeds. Maybe I got lucky. The only issue with is with the mag release lever. Apply pressure from the left side of the weapon and it doesn't like to more. Apply pressure from the right side and works like a charm on all mags. Go figure....??
Are BOTH of your SLRs like that or just one? Either way, that would piss me off. Especially on a rifle in this price range. I seem to recall reading on here or on AK Forum (I forget which) that some of the function problems associated with the 106s might stem from Arsenal inexplicably designing them by working off of AK-47/AKM pattern 7.62 guns rather than the AK-74, which would likely have made more sense. I can't help but wonder if part of the reason Arsenal has mostly discontinued them was due to the rifles tending to be trouble-prone or at the very least, kinda quirky.
Although really, poor sales probably had more to do with it. Even during the post Sandy Hook panic the full length 106s were never listing on Gunbroker for more than about MSRP. I think even though a number of people have perfectly functioning examples I think word of the rifle's early teething problems really got around, either that or .223 AKs just aren't a very big draw.
RetroRevolver77
12-23-16, 10:42
Are BOTH of your SLRs like that or just one? Either way, that would piss me off. Especially on a rifle in this price range. I seem to recall reading on here or on AK Forum (I forget which) that some of the function problems associated with the 106s might stem from Arsenal inexplicably designing them by working off of AK-47/AKM pattern 7.62 guns rather than the AK-74, which would likely have made more sense. I can't help but wonder if part of the reason Arsenal has mostly discontinued them was due to the rifles tending to be trouble-prone or at the very least, kinda quirky.
Although really, poor sales probably had more to do with it. Even during the post Sandy Hook panic the full length 106s were never listing on Gunbroker for more than about MSRP. I think even though a number of people have perfectly functioning examples I think word of the rifle's early teething problems really got around, either that or .223 AKs just aren't a very big draw.
The problem with the 106 was they didn't want to initially bring in the actual people who designed the working proto-type to assist them when they produced the production rifles.
The main issue was that they shaved the centering ear tabs on their production mags for generations 2 and 3. The ear tabs basically helped push the rounds to center and onto the feed ramp bevel that sits below the barrel chamber. Without those centering ear tabs the rounds fed straight onto either side of the feed ramp bevel rather than centered onto the feed ramp itself. The basic solution was to make the feed ramp lower and wider, think one giant "M4 feed ramp cut"- to accommodate all Generations of 5.56 Bulgarian magazines. All of these issues should have been addressed and fixed from the BE serial numbers on up.
The handful of guys on the AK forum thinking the 106FR should have been a 74 pattern rifle instead of AKM pattern- are incorrect. The Arsenal 5.56 47 pattern milled rifles from the 1990's ran fine and were used for a number of years in South America. In addition the AKM patterned Chinese 5.56 rifles sold in the 1980's to the US market also worked well. Arsenal legally couldn't design a stamped 5.56 rifle in 74 pattern when this all began in the 1990's because the Russians owned the patents on the 74 patterned 100 series 5.56 rifles. So the only way to get a stamped 5.56 stamped 100 series "style" AK at that time was to essentially resurrect the supposed AKM patterned 5.56 AKS 74 M1A1. Which only existed in pictures and their kits they brought over were not even remotely compatible without heavy machining. Which I think originally were actually 74 pattern rifles instead and is the reason they canceled the program at the time.
Anyway, the BE serial numbers on up shouldn't have those issues anymore. However it's always the handful of people who had these issues from the first production run that you hear complain but that doesn't reflect on the rest of the production runs. The issues were addressed from the BE serial numbers onward. I personally have owned now about a dozen Arsenal 106FR's and they all run like a top.
7n6
Mine are;
Mini 14 = minute of man accuracy
Sig mosquito = crap trigger, jamomatic
Ruger black hawk = I couldn't shoot it to save my life. May dad was pretty good with it
Glocks =. Gen 1-3 I don't like the feel, but can shoot well, already said they are soulless
Are BOTH of your SLRs like that or just one? Either way, that would piss me off. Especially on a rifle in this price range. I seem to recall reading on here or on AK Forum (I forget which) that some of the function problems associated with the 106s might stem from Arsenal inexplicably designing them by working off of AK-47/AKM pattern 7.62 guns rather than the AK-74, which would likely have made more sense. I can't help but wonder if part of the reason Arsenal has mostly discontinued them was due to the rifles tending to be trouble-prone or at the very least, kinda quirky.
Although really, poor sales probably had more to do with it. Even during the post Sandy Hook panic the full length 106s were never listing on Gunbroker for more than about MSRP. I think even though a number of people have perfectly functioning examples I think word of the rifle's early teething problems really got around, either that or .223 AKs just aren't a very big draw.
It only has the mag release problem with the BD series SLR 106. It only does it with the mag inserted. The mag locks in nice and no wobble or slop. Try to use your left thumb or index finger to release the mag from the left side of the weapon, it provides resistance. Use your index finger or thumb on the right side, mag comes out right away.
Via experimentation, I have also found that the underside of the magazine lug with the Arsenal 5.56 mags are a little thick from time to time. Take a fine flat file to it and follow up with some sandpaper and it allows with mag to release easier. I file and sand, stick it in the weapon. If release still sticking, repeat process until it works. I've heard of some shade tree gunsmiths attempting to file down something on the mag release lever. NO. I am thinking that some of the SLR 106's have tighter tolerances in that area than others, especially with magazine lugs of varying thickness. Other than this, totally reliable weapons.
RetroRevolver77
12-23-16, 11:31
It only has the mag release problem with the BD series SLR 106. It only does it with the mag inserted. The mag locks in nice and no wobble or slop. Try to use your left thumb or index finger to release the mag from the left side of the weapon, it provides resistance. Use your index finger or thumb on the right side, mag comes out right away.
Via experimentation, I have also found that the underside of the magazine lug with the Arsenal 5.56 mags are a little thick from time to time. Take a fine flat file to it and follow up with some sandpaper and it allows with mag to release easier. I file and sand, stick it in the weapon. If release still sticking, repeat process until it works. I've heard of some shade tree gunsmiths attempting to file down something on the mag release lever. NO. I am thinking that some of the SLR 106's have tighter tolerances in that area than others, especially with magazine lugs of varying thickness. Other than this, totally reliable weapons.
They had three generations of magazines.
Doc Safari
12-23-16, 11:41
Bottom line: all this confusion is why I never wanted to touch an SLR106FR with a 10-ft pole. It takes Circle 10 black mags; it doesn't take them. It feeds poorly with a certain serial number prefix. It only works with transluscent Bulgarian mags. To my mind there is no way to be sure you're getting one that works without trying it out, and I mean trying it out over a lot of ammo.
Really, though, I think Arsenal has gotten a pass for their quality in many cases where they shouldn't have. I was one of those early customers that got an SLR107FR with canted sights that ran over an entire batch. Arsenal's excuse was that some equipment was calibrated wrong or something.
Yeah, they fixed mine for free like they did a zillion other buyers, and I got mine back in a reasonable period of time.
Then not two weeks later I realized my SAM7R had canted sights too even though they looked fine just eyeballing them. The windage pegged out at one side and was still off. The girl at Arsenal almost didn't want to believe an SAM7R could have the same problem as the SLR107's. While I'm trying to get the return authorization, she kept trying to correct me that it was an SLR107 and not an SAM7R.
It all worked out and I got that one fixed too, but that finished me with Arsenal. Less than six months later I watched one of the shooting shows on one of the outdoor channels. The guy was showing all that you could do with an M4.
My Arsenal AK's started going to the gun shop for consignment one at a time pretty much steadily after that day and I haven't looked back.
Every time I'm tempted to buy another AK I just cringe. It's like remembering that New Year's Eve where you drank too much and nearly died from gastritis the next day.
titsonritz
12-23-16, 11:51
The XD with Sig, Glock, 1911 attributes it should have been a good gun.
Rem 1187P, man I hated that thing, reloading it sucks and was a ammo finicky bitch.
Bushmaster XM-15E2S Dissipator, no need to go there.
RetroRevolver77
12-23-16, 11:51
Bottom line: all this confusion is why I never wanted to touch an SLR106FR with a 10-ft pole. It takes Circle 10 black mags; it doesn't take them. It feeds poorly with a certain serial number prefix. It only works with transluscent Bulgarian mags. To my mind there is no way to be sure you're getting one that works without trying it out, and I mean trying it out over a lot of ammo.
Really, though, I think Arsenal has gotten a pass for their quality in many cases where they shouldn't have. I was one of those early customers that got an SLR107FR with canted sights that ran over an entire batch. Arsenal's excuse was that some equipment was calibrated wrong or something.
Yeah, they fixed mine for free like they did a zillion other buyers, and I got mine back in a reasonable period of time.
Then not two weeks later I realized my SAM7R had canted sights too even though they looked fine just eyeballing them. The windage pegged out at one side and was still off. The girl at Arsenal almost didn't want to believe an SAM7R could have the same problem as the SLR107's. While I'm trying to get the return authorization, she kept trying to correct me that it was an SLR107 and not an SAM7R.
It all worked out and I got that one fixed too, but that finished me with Arsenal. Less than six months later I watched one of the shooting shows on one of the outdoor channels. The guy was showing all that you could do with an M4.
My Arsenal AK's started going to the gun shop for consignment one at a time pretty much steadily after that day and I haven't looked back.
Every time I'm tempted to buy another AK I just cringe. It's like remembering that New Year's Eve where you drank too much and nearly died from gastritis the next day.
I agree, I've had issues with their quality control as well but I still have about ten of their rifles. They are good rifles. Crooked sights don't require sending them in, you remove the pins, drift the sight block- put the pins back in.
Doc Safari
12-23-16, 11:57
I agree, I've had issues with their quality control as well but I still have about ten of their rifles. They are good rifles. Crooked sights don't require sending them in, you remove the pins, drift the sight block- put the pins back in.
When you have a local gunsmith that can do it. I just decided to err on the side of warranty returns. My local gunsmith had a Yugo with canted sights in his shop for months before he finally just called the customer to come pick it up.
RetroRevolver77
12-23-16, 12:14
When you have a local gunsmith that can do it. I just decided to err on the side of warranty returns. My local gunsmith had a Yugo with canted sights in his shop for months before he finally just called the customer to come pick it up.
I had a new SLR 104FR that had crooked ass sights and gas block. I admit, I didn't feel like messing with it so I sent it to Chris at AK USA to fix for me. Arsenal wouldn't honor the warranty since it was over a year old. Frankly I didn't notice because it was purchased as an item to serve later in the rotation.
Doc Safari
12-23-16, 12:45
Arsenal wouldn't honor the warranty since it was over a year old.
If I remember correctly the same thing happened with me and my SAM7R. It was like one week out of warranty (I keep all my receipts) and the girl tried to tell me "Tough Luck." I forget what I told her but I think I mentioned the SLR107FR having the same problem and she relented and let me send the SAM7R under warranty. Trying to save me as a customer, I guess. Too late. I never wanted another Arsenal after that.
WickedWillis
12-23-16, 13:09
What a fantastic thread.
My personal ones are;
XDM and XD series- I had nothing but problems with them, but I was a Glock-hater with zero research to back up why I hated Glock. I got heavily invested in an XD40 and an XDM9. Things broke, I was inaccurate with them, SA's customer service didn't believe my issues. Yeah, those got sold.
M&Pc series- Nope. I hated the trigger, thought the gun was awkward, too large and cumbersome. I was extremely disappointed with it. Luckily the Shield is better in every way except capacity. I am looking forward to the tweaks on the Gen 2 M&P's though.
Walther PPK- James Bond made me believe this was the finest firearms ever. One of the first handguns I ever had a decent time with as my Mom bought one for concealed carry. It choked on nearly everything that we tried to feed it. I gave the PPK another chance over the Thanksgiving break, because my Dad has one. When it did fire it was wildly inaccurate, slide bit me twice. I was done with it after that. If it was more reliable, the trigger is not terrible on it. The cool factor was not enough to save it for me.
FN FNP45 tactical- This handgun looked so amazing when it first came out. 15+1 45, one of the first mainstream manufacturers to have a mini red dot spot milled into the slide. I started saving my money for one. Luckily, my local range had a rental version, sans red dot. The gun is far too large for me. It felt like a chore to shoot. I have large palms with short fingers, and this is the only firearm I have shot that made me feel terrible about my genetic defect. Trigger is decent for a DA/SA, and I think the Trijicon suppressor sights are outstanding, but even with the small backstrap it was a little too big for me. I rented and shot the Glock 21 much better than the FN during the same range trip, and that helped bring me full circle to the Glock family again. The FN is an awesome gun, just not awesome for me.
I guess I got lucky with the two SLR 106's, other than the mag release issue on the first one. Great shooters. I have heard the horror stories about canted front sights, feeding issues, etc. I have both the clear and solid circle 10 magazines. As mentioned before, the underside of the lug needed a little filing to make the mag work perfectly for insertion and removal. Canted front sights are not exclusive to Arsenal. I have a Norinco Red bakelight sidefolder from the mid 80's I bought brand new. It came from China with a slightly canted front sight.
I have also the SLR 107 series and a Saiga SGL in 5.45x39. No issues with either of those. My experience may not be common it seems. I'm just an odd critter. I have my "collection" of ARs and you hear about people running the Comm Block ammo in those. I refuse to run any of that ammo in my AR's. I think it's too dirty. Only American commercial stuff including all the Federal Lake City stuff. I save the Tula, Wolf, etc. for my AKs.
FWIW I have reversed my opinion on the HK 762. It is a worthy continuation from the Legacy line. Once a few minor tweaks are made, it is a nice rifle.
Would I take it over an ECC? No.
Over a SCAR? Yes.
My only niggle is the magazine. Not bad, but I wish the feed lips were done Lancer L7 style.
The L7 is quite a design.
Also, FWIW, I have done a 180 on CZs. Once I got and spent time with a milsurp CZ75, it sort of de-romanticized the BHP. The CZ is just that good. Nicer than a Beretta IMHO.
I'm in that striker life, but really I need a better CZ catalogue.
H&K USP of any variety. It had such a reputation I wanted to love them, but nothing about them ever impressed me, and they're too expensive to 'just have'.
I know this is probably blasphemy here, but the AR. A fine machine but I have zero interest in them at all. They don't excite me to shoot, build, or work on. I think I put a total of 4 mags through them this year, and now that the election panic is over I'll be getting rid of all but one and finding things I actually enjoy.
Eurodriver
12-27-16, 15:25
SCAR 17.
Brutal recoil without a brake. Scope would beat the shit out of my eye. Trigger was "meh". Magazines (at the time) were $55+ if you could find one and the rail was way too short and way too sharp.
I hear now they have new lowers, extended rails, etc but I bet that recoil still ****s you up without something loud on the end.
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