View Full Version : Has anyone actually had any *documented* KeyMod failures?
DreadPirateMoyer
03-02-16, 22:38
I keep hearing about light mounts falling off, bipods coming loose, QD sling mounts ripping off, and all kinds of other horror stories when it comes to KeyMod handguards (see here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?164594-any-benefit-to-Mlok-over-Keymod and here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?178699-Magpul-MLOK-vs-Keymod). However, that's all it ever is: hearsay. To this date, I still haven't seen any documentation of these supposed failures attributable to the KeyMod design. No pictures, no tests...nothing.
So here's your chance. Put up or shut up.
Have you directly experienced or witnessed a KeyMod failure that can't be blamed on improper installation or the accessory design, but rather the KeyMod design itself, and do you have any sort of evidence for this (videos, pictures, reputable tests)? If so, please post it here. If not, please stop repeating garbage you've read on the internet.
I've shot thousands through my KM-handguard-equipped rifles and just haven't experienced any of this. That isn't to say data isn't out there. Magpul has obviously done their research, and anyone with any sense of engineering design can see MLOK is likely stronger, but this isn't about that, nor the Colt Canada tests. I routinely see people on both this forum and others post that they or their friends have had catastrophic KeyMod failures on properly-installed, quality accessories, and none of them ever have any documentation to back it up. It's frustrating and annoying, quite frankly, so let's get this out of the way and see it. No rumors. No BS. Post it up.
Somehow, I have a feeling the evidence will be lacking.
Full disclosure: I'm a rabid Magpul and BCM fanboy, so this is personal to me in multiple ways. All my guns are Colt or BCM these days, and all my accessories are Magpul where possible. All my handguards are KM because it was first to market, but if I were buying today, I'd likely go MLOK. That said, I don't think it's worth it for me to swap out all my KMRs and other handguards for MLOK as it would cost me money I would otherwise spend on training, and ammo I'd have to spend resighting my guns, which I despise. I think there's room for both in this market and am glad we have so many options. So yeah, overall, I have lots of skin in in this game, and I want some answers.
DreadPirateMoyer
03-02-16, 22:46
P.S.: I will accept the statements of SMEs, manufacturers, and industry pros without documentation as their reputations and experience speak for themselves. The rest of you plebs need to show up with hard proof. :)
None here using BCM and Arisaka KeyMod parts on a KMR... for whatever it's worth.
trackmagic
03-02-16, 23:38
Not "documented", but a personal experience... I had a keymod rail that was holding on my bipods come loose. When I got home I tightened it down more and cracked the handgaurd between the "key" sections. The manufacturer replaced the handgaurd, but told me I don't need to "gorilla-tighten" on my keymods.
I get that keymod is a standard and that is cool by itself, but what would be wrong with a standardizing tapped pattern like on the KAC and Vltor hangaurds where you can bolt on sections, but you have to take the screw out. Is dealing with a screw really that difficult?
556BlackRifle
03-03-16, 01:38
Thank you for starting this thread DreadPirate. I'm also a KeyMod user who has never had a KeyMod accessory come loose. I consider myself to be impartial on the M-LOK vs KeyMod debate and actually plan to install an M-LOK rail on another rifle in the near future. It bothers me when I hear people making BS claims about a product / system just because it's fugly to them or because they're a flaming fanboy of an opposing product / system.
Here are my particulars:
Two 15 inch Noveske NSR rails.
All KeyMod hardware is Noveske brand.
Both NSRs have bipods mounted to a 9 slot 1913 rail section. One is an Atlas with an AMD QD 1913 mount, the other is a Harris with a 1913 to sling swivel adapter.
Both have weapon lights mounted to 4 slot 1913 rail sections.
Both have an unused 4 slot 1913 rail mounted opposite the lights.
Both have QD Sling Swivel Mounts that are used.
All KeyMod hardware has been torqued to 25 inch pounds.
Round Count - Rifle 1 has ~3500 to 4000 and rifle 2 has about 1500 rounds down range.
Not "documented", but a personal experience... I had a keymod rail that was holding on my bipods come loose. When I got home I tightened it down more and cracked the handgaurd between the "key" sections. The manufacturer replaced the handgaurd, but told me I don't need to "gorilla-tighten" on my keymods.
I get that keymod is a standard and that is cool by itself, but what would be wrong with a standardizing tapped pattern like on the KAC and Vltor hangaurds where you can bolt on sections, but you have to take the screw out. Is dealing with a screw really that difficult?
You got pictures?
DreadPirateMoyer
03-03-16, 08:22
Not "documented", but a personal experience... I had a keymod rail that was holding on my bipods come loose. When I got home I tightened it down more and cracked the handgaurd between the "key" sections. The manufacturer replaced the handgaurd, but told me I don't need to "gorilla-tighten" on my keymods.
I get that keymod is a standard and that is cool by itself, but what would be wrong with a standardizing tapped pattern like on the KAC and Vltor hangaurds where you can bolt on sections, but you have to take the screw out. Is dealing with a screw really that difficult?
Interesting on the crack. Do you know how hard you tightened it, what brand the KM attachment was, and the brand of the handguard?
Good lesson for KM owners regardless.
I've never seen a failure unless it was due to incorrect installation. Usually someone doesn't seat the recoil lugs in the slots, and then tightens it down, which will really mess up the rail.
I've personally bent up a few rails with destructive testing of our mounts and have never had a keymod specific failure. I have also experimented with torque values quite a bit. We recommend 20-25 inch lbs, but I've run it up to 50+ inch lbs. The nuts will dig into the back of the slots at higher torque values, but I've never had one fail or rip through. And I install/remove a ton of accessories with our testing, QC, and personal use.
As far as loosening up: blue loctite or vibratite vc3 are your friends.
Over on the Primary & Secondary Professional/Duty Facebook page there is a thread that focuses on this subject and several instances cover it.
Full disclosure - I run that page.
On a recent podcast under the same brand, several recognized instructors mentioned having witnessed the same issues.
DreadPirateMoyer
03-03-16, 09:51
Over on the Primary & Secondary Professional/Duty Facebook page there is a thread that focuses on this subject and several instances cover it.
Full disclosure - I run that page.
On a recent podcast under the same brand, several recognized instructors mentioned having witnessed the same issues.
Could you throw up a link to that thread? Would like to peruse it. And which instructors, if you don't mind me asking?
https://facebook.com/groups/309414135922248?view=permalink&id=373396146190713
Rich Mason, Steve Fisher, Chad Mercer off the top of my head. There are several pro end users as well.
Primus Pilum
03-03-16, 10:09
What is the point. Mlock is a vastly superior mounting system. As I predicted a few years ago Keymod will die a quick death over the next couple years as manufactures move away from it, KAC being a good example.
DreadPirateMoyer
03-03-16, 10:14
What is the point. Mlock is a vastly superior mounting system. As I predicted a few years ago Keymod will die a quick death over the next couple years as manufactures move away from it, KAC being a good example.
The point is lots of people assert things about KM without evidence, and many of us own KM products and would like to get to the root of if there are even issues with the mounting system at all.
You're free to not post here again if you want to make this an MLOK vs. KM thread, as two of those already exist on this forum and are linked in the OP. In fact, I'd suggest that. Thanks.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jVbZEfQcmqY&feature=youtu.be
BCM has a failure in their own video. Rail gets severely bent. Imagine if that held a light or sling mount.
Segment starts at 4:38. Zoom in to 4:52 for the bent rail they then try to hide afterwards.
I'll look through my notes and see what other documented failures I wrote down when doing research on KMR versus MLOK.
To be clear - I have no industry affiliations, no dog in this fight, and have uppers with both KMR and MLOK. All I care about is what works best for a fighting rifle.
DreadPirateMoyer
03-03-16, 10:48
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jVbZEfQcmqY&feature=youtu.be
BCM has a failure in their own video. Rail gets severely bent. Imagine if that held a light or sling mount.
Segment starts at 4:38. Zoom in to 4:52 for the bent rail they then try to hide afterwards.
I'll look through my notes and see what other documented failures I wrote down when doing research on KMR versus MLOK.
To be clear - I have no industry affiliations, no dog in this fight, and have uppers with both KMR and MLOK. All I care about is what works best for a fighting rifle.
I noticed that as well when that video first came out. That said, I don't think that's really a slight against KM as an attachment system. After all, that handguard could have been MLOK and it still would've dented in like that. I think that's more of a factor of the KMR material and design; that said, even a tank like the first Geissele SMRs would have dented there I bet.
Would definitely be interested in your notes and any documentation/evidence you found.
From my research:
Image of KMR Failure: http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a495/MichaelBronsonMK1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsp7nhijrj.jpeg
Description of KMR Failure: "Tightening an offset scout light mount when I heard a sickening crunch of aluminum. Took it off and saw that the slot is fubar and the nuts have warped."
Image of KMR Failure: http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a495/MichaelBronsonMK1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps5mysqdys.jpeg
Description of KMR Failure: "WML Installation led to this."
I also found this image, but no word as to what caused it. This is not rail flex (which can be induced on any free float rail), but rather a busted rail.
http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a495/MichaelBronsonMK1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsw3v8yzdk.jpeg
DreadPirateMoyer
03-03-16, 11:49
I've never seen a failure unless it was due to incorrect installation. Usually someone doesn't seat the recoil lugs in the slots, and then tightens it down, which will really mess up the rail.
I've personally bent up a few rails with destructive testing of our mounts and have never had a keymod specific failure. I have also experimented with torque values quite a bit. We recommend 20-25 inch lbs, but I've run it up to 50+ inch lbs. The nuts will dig into the back of the slots at higher torque values, but I've never had one fail or rip through. And I install/remove a ton of accessories with our testing, QC, and personal use.
As far as loosening up: blue loctite or vibratite vc3 are your friends.
Thanks for your insight! Helps a lot. And threadlocker of some sort is an absolute must I've found out for KM. I wish that were more known.
https://facebook.com/groups/309414135922248?view=permalink&id=373396146190713
Rich Mason, Steve Fisher, Chad Mercer off the top of my head. There are several pro end users as well.
Dang, can't get the page to open on my phone. Will check it out when I get home.
From my research:
Image of KMR Failure: http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a495/MichaelBronsonMK1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsp7nhijrj.jpeg
Description of KMR Failure: "Tightening an offset scout light mount when I heard a sickening crunch of aluminum. Took it off and saw that the slot is fubar and the nuts have warped."
Image of KMR Failure: http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a495/MichaelBronsonMK1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps5mysqdys.jpeg
Description of KMR Failure: "WML Installation led to this."
I also found this image, but no word as to what caused it. This is not rail flex (which can be induced on any free float rail), but rather a busted rail.
http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a495/MichaelBronsonMK1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsw3v8yzdk.jpeg
#1 is tough to tell. It does look like a failure of some sort assuming proper torque values were used, though. If so, this would be the first failure I've seen in all the years KM has been out.
#2 looks like improper installation to me. The bolt marks aren't centered where they should be if it were installed properly.
#3 looks like the same failure as before. Material and design issues independent of the KM system, imo.
Thank for posting!
black22rifle
03-03-16, 12:20
Here is my bent KMR. My guess is that I somehow over torqued the nuts, although I always used the short end of the allen key and it somehow caved in the 1, 3, 5, and 6 o'clock rails.
38133
Primus Pilum
03-03-16, 12:35
The point is lots of people assert things about KM without evidence, and many of us own KM products and would like to get to the root of if there are even issues with the mounting system at all.
You're free to not post here again if you want to make this an MLOK vs. KM thread, as two of those already exist on this forum and are linked in the OP. In fact, I'd suggest that. Thanks.
Why are you looking to justify an inferior product? You need other people to prove what you subconsciously already know (otherwise you wouldn't have made this thread).
Nightstalker865
03-03-16, 12:39
While I haven't had an issue with my KMR or DD SLiM rail with accessories, I do feel the MLoK is the superior mounting system. I've said from the beginning that I feel eventually the market will turn that way. With it being simpler to manufacture (correctly) and being almost fool proof for the end user, I don't see how it won't prevail.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There's SMU commentary and other user commentary in the P&S thread that should answer the mail for you. If not, there's some more private feedback from a specific user group that I'd have to get permission to repost. I can probably at least PM it to you.
Granted, much of this all relates to hard duty use of the weapons, but does include top quality KM rails and correct installation.
D
DreadPirateMoyer
03-03-16, 13:10
Here is my bent KMR. My guess is that I somehow over torqued the nuts, although I always used the short end of the allen key and it somehow caved in the 1, 3, 5, and 6 o'clock rails.
38133
Dang, that indeed looks like a KM failure. Hmph.
From my research:
Image of KMR Failure: http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a495/MichaelBronsonMK1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsp7nhijrj.jpeg
Description of KMR Failure: "Tightening an offset scout light mount when I heard a sickening crunch of aluminum. Took it off and saw that the slot is fubar and the nuts have warped."
This was from a thread here on M4C I believe, where the culprit was out-of-spec keymod nuts on the mount (or improperly heat treated nuts that squashed). Not a fault of the keymod design, but rather improper manufacturing.
Image of KMR Failure: http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a495/MichaelBronsonMK1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps5mysqdys.jpeg
Description of KMR Failure: "WML Installation led to this."
This is clearly improper installation. You can see exactly how the damaged slots where the nut pulled through are not at the ends. With the recoil lug sitting on the outside of the rail surface, the user kept tightening the screws until the nuts ripped through.
I also found this image, but no word as to what caused it. This is not rail flex (which can be induced on any free float rail), but rather a busted rail.
http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a495/MichaelBronsonMK1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsw3v8yzdk.jpeg
The magnesium alloy KMR is soft. I have bent several in the same manner while destructive testing our mounts. The newer Alpha version is much stronger. In any case, this is not a keymod design problem.
trackmagic
03-03-16, 15:57
Interesting on the crack. Do you know how hard you tightened it, what brand the KM attachment was, and the brand of the handguard?
Good lesson for KM owners regardless.
PM sent.
I did not use a torque wrench. That may have been part of the problem, but with other systems I don't use a wrench. Nothing against keymod, but I don't like always using a torque wrench when assembling stuff so maybe its not a good fit for me.
The MickFury and black22rifle pictures both indicate improper installation. Tightening without the lug being engaged. Ask yourself... How can you deform the rail if the base of the accessory is flat on the rail? Where does the displaced rail metal go? I'll say it again... Ignorance will be the death of KM.
black22rifle
03-03-16, 16:28
Not every single keymod accessory has a flat bottom. My unity tactical VFG sure doesn't.
The MickFury and black22rifle pictures both indicate improper installation. Tightening without the lug being engaged. Ask yourself... How can you deform the rail if the base of the accessory is flat on the rail? Where does the displaced rail metal go? I'll say it again... Ignorance will be the death of KM.
I agree with your statement ''ignorance will be the death of KM" but I for one like the looks of my KMR and NSR over MLock. I haven't had any problems with KM but take my time and make sure accessories are correctly seated before adding any torque, but hell, I even do that when installing a washing machine.
Could you throw up a link to that thread? Would like to peruse it. And which instructors, if you don't mind me asking?
It's a private group. You have to be approved by the mods to see things inow the group.
http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a495/MichaelBronsonMK1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsw3v8yzdk.jpeg
For what it's worth, I had this type of damage happen on a Larue rail. The cause was a drop on concrete, and the rail mounted, non-folding front sight smashed, and the rail was fuxored up just like that.
It's a private group. You have to be approved by the mods to see things inow the group.
This is the group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/PrimarySecondary/
It's going to hard to point to any failure and state "this was/wasn't caused by this specific mounting system" outside of a somewhat controlled setting.
And you'll most likely have the die-hard supporters assuming any failure was caused by extenuating circumstances and the other end's detractors putting blame solely on the system regardless of the scenario.
I've never seen a failure unless it was due to incorrect installation. Usually someone doesn't seat the recoil lugs in the slots, and then tightens it down, which will really mess up the rail.
I've personally bent up a few rails with destructive testing of our mounts and have never had a keymod specific failure. I have also experimented with torque values quite a bit. We recommend 20-25 inch lbs, but I've run it up to 50+ inch lbs. The nuts will dig into the back of the slots at higher torque values, but I've never had one fail or rip through. And I install/remove a ton of accessories with our testing, QC, and personal use.
As far as loosening up: blue loctite or vibratite vc3 are your friends.
This seems more like the kind of input OP should be soliciting. An industry professional who has in-depth experience with both systems and is regularly doing destructive testing.
patriot_man
03-04-16, 03:13
Thanks for your insight! Helps a lot. And threadlocker of some sort is an absolute must I've found out for KM. I wish that were more known.
Dang, can't get the page to open on my phone. Will check it out when I get home.
#1 is tough to tell. It does look like a failure of some sort assuming proper torque values were used, though. If so, this would be the first failure I've seen in all the years KM has been out.
#2 looks like improper installation to me. The bolt marks aren't centered where they should be if it were installed properly.
#3 looks like the same failure as before. Material and design issues independent of the KM system, imo.
Thank for posting!
#1 was me. KAC said they had a batch of nuts that were improperly heat treated and thus deformed when tightening. This caused a new imprint in the slot. Everything has been resolved. This install was done with a torque wrench at 25 in/lbs.
Not every single keymod accessory has a flat bottom. My unity tactical VFG sure doesn't.
That is a design flaw of the accessory.
KM attachments must have a flat spot in the area of the nut.
The accessory must be flat/flush to the rail before tightening the screws.
Personally, I love keymod, but I could easily go another route if it wasn't available. That being said, all my rifles have a KM rail of some kind. I have some input on how keymod should be designed (although, who am I right?). So, my idea of a KM accessory would be a hybrid of BCM and LaRue or along those lines. They would be solidly mounted but easily quick disconnected. I feel like any benefit to keymod is lost without quick disconnect ability.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not every single keymod accessory has a flat bottom. My unity tactical VFG sure doesn't.
That vfg is the single worst designed km accessory I've ever seen. I've got two of them. One is mounted on a URX. The other one jacked up a km slot on my Geissele rail.
allthelumens
03-04-16, 14:49
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jVbZEfQcmqY&feature=youtu.be
BCM has a failure in their own video. Rail gets severely bent. Imagine if that held a light or sling mount.
Segment starts at 4:38. Zoom in to 4:52 for the bent rail they then try to hide afterwards.
I'll look through my notes and see what other documented failures I wrote down when doing research on KMR versus MLOK.
To be clear - I have no industry affiliations, no dog in this fight, and have uppers with both KMR and MLOK. All I care about is what works best for a fighting rifle.
I think this video was released before they started making the Alpha rail.. I could be wrong though
Does intentionally breaking anything count as a failure?
That's what I see in the video, put a Mlok in its place you'll get the same results. Hell even some quad rails will give similar results.
Mysteryman
03-05-16, 00:43
Does intentionally breaking anything count as a failure?
That's what I see in the video, put a Mlok in its place you'll get the same results. Hell even some quad rails will give similar results.
He didn't exactly hit the rifle that hard against the beam. The rail caved in a lot on the left side. Far too fragile IMO.
MM
JackFanToM
03-05-16, 07:57
I would bet dollars vs donuts that any aluminum rail gets smacked against a wood post exactly that hard, it would have a bad day. A 2 story drop wouldn't even create that impact, even if the exact area dropped on a concrete curb. It may not appear as if he was "swinging for the fences", but that's not a baseball bat (consequently I have seen the results of an idiot beating a telephone pole with an aluminum bat - the bat was a ruined mess and bent near double).
He didn't exactly hit the rifle that hard against the beam. The rail caved in a lot on the left side. Far too fragile IMO.
It's not one impact, it's multiple impacts at the same point that continue to create deformation. He's not hitting a 380ft home run with that swing, but it's still a lot of force concentrated on a small area. As has already been said, most aluminum tube handguards would experience similar deformation. If you've gotten to the point where your rifle has to become a club, you're probably no longer worried about the accessories that might be mounted.
I had a Midwest Industries rail fail. One of their models that didn't require removal of the standard handguard ring... It was clearly me over tightening. So not a failure of the KM portion, but user installation error.
I think I still have the rail if really interested in pictures.
DreadPirateMoyer
03-05-16, 18:08
Just wanted to thank everyone for posting and let you know I found the answers I was looking for. Thanks guys!
Find ManBearPig!
03-05-16, 20:55
Just wanted to thank everyone for posting and let you know I found the answers I was looking for. Thanks guys!
Well, what where the answers then? I think many of us would like to know. :D
Also, as others have stated, it would be nice if a reputable third party could test KeyMod, M-Lok, and standard Picatinny side to side, then publish the results so that we wouldn't need to have so much debate and speculation over this. If some known quantity company or group who's only concern in this matter was providing the best data possible came out and said "we did testing, here is what we found", that would certainly advance this debate past its current, rather annoying state of shrouded private testing data from potentially biased sources and anecdotal evidence. Objective, scientifically collected data has this great tendency to weed out myths; the more of it we have, the better.
3ACR_Scout
03-05-16, 22:33
Description of KMR Failure: "Tightening an offset scout light mount when I heard a sickening crunch of aluminum. Took it off and saw that the slot is fubar and the nuts have warped."
Image of KMR Failure: http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a495/MichaelBronsonMK1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps5mysqdys.jpeg
Thanks for your insight! Helps a lot. And threadlocker of some sort is an absolute must I've found out for KM. I wish that were more known.
I experienced similar "crunching" and damage while attempting to remove a Midwest Industries KM rail cover panel. I can't say for sure whether it was installed properly, since this was my first KM experience, but I attribute it to using Loctite to secure the nuts, which was probably overkill with plastic panels like these (I'm a little obsessive). I had a little bit of trouble with some of the MI nuts, which didn't seem to be threaded very cleanly - I had to remove a couple of the nuts and bolts from the covers and use pliers to hold them and force the bolts to turn through what seemed to be some rough spots in the threading, if I recall (it's been about a year). I ended up take a few nuts from covers that I wasn't using to replace ones that were too tight.
A week or so after installing the rail covers, I decided to move things around. I didn't have any trouble installing the covers, but when I went to take one of them off, it seemed as if the Loctite was holding tight and the nut was instead spinning against the back side of the rail and grinding away material from the edge of the keyhole. When I got the panel off, the edges of the keyhole looked like the photo above. I was able to reinstall the panel again, since it used a a different hole once I repositioned it, so I'm not going to remove it just to take a photo and risk damage again. Since it's not load bearing, I don't foresee any problems, but I was a bit surprised how brittle the KM rail material was in the way that it "crunched" into small fragments as the nut ground it away.
I should note that I have a BCM Scout mount on the rail that I've removed and then reinstalled since this happened, and it hasn't caused any problems. However, I'll probably go with the KMR-A next time, since I suspect it won't be as brittle as the standard KMR.
Dave
JackFanToM
03-06-16, 13:14
I still find it odd that people think it is an issue with the rail, when over tightened or incorrectly installed steel bolts pull through aluminum. It has been my experience, if installing steel screws into any type of material that isn't as strong, you should use caution.
Yes you will almost always sacrifice some strength for a weight reduction.
A friend of mine is SF and he says he's seen numerous failures with Keymod accessories in the field and in training. Mostly the mounted items are jarred loose and fall off when engaging barricades, or when dropped. He's also seen the holes peen and deform causing failures as shown above. He says he's had a lot better luck with Mlok.
JackFanToM
03-07-16, 09:28
No offense but I'm completely sick of hearing "I know someone who..." stories. First hand (with pics preferable) or it didn't happen.
556BlackRifle
03-07-16, 09:32
A friend of mine is SF and he says he's seen numerous failures with Keymod accessories in the field and in training. Mostly the mounted items are jarred loose and fall off when engaging barricades, or when dropped. He's also seen the holes peen and deform causing failures as shown above. He says he's had a lot better luck with Mlok.
What your friend told you may be true but without documentation, it has no value in this discussion. This discussion is about documented failures.
No offense but I'm completely sick of hearing "I know someone who..." stories. First hand (with pics preferable) or it didn't happen.
... and complaints about perceived weaknesses from people that haven't actually used it.
What your friend told you may be true but without documentation, it has no value in this discussion. This discussion is about documented failures.
I willfully avoid following directions. It's kind of my thing.
I'll see if he has any pictures and info I can post.
Primus Pilum
03-07-16, 13:17
I still find it odd that people think it is an issue with the rail, when over tightened or incorrectly installed steel bolts pull through aluminum. It has been my experience, if installing steel screws into any type of material that isn't as strong, you should use caution.
Yes you will almost always sacrifice some strength for a weight reduction.
Inherent design failure. IF the stars have to align just to prevent failure, than the design was poor in the first place. The specs alone are too thin especially when everyone is trying to make things lighter and thinner. It's just a poorly thought design all the way around. Too many things to go wrong, to easy to screw up the install and not thick/durable enough for hard use.
JackFanToM
03-07-16, 13:47
Primus, I completely disagree. Your logic is flawed, if we followed your logic then the ar15 platform itself. I recall it being stated "over engineered" "too strict tolerances" "aluminum is to weak for a fighting rifle" etc. All new innovations go through a break in period. I consider the KMR to be a great step in the right direction.
jackblack73
03-07-16, 14:29
I consider the bevel to be, not a design failure, but a weakness in the design. It seems logical to me that if you remove material the rail/connection point will be inherently weaker. People like to say keymod looks like Home Depot shelving, but the shelving doesn't have a bevel.
JackFanToM
03-07-16, 15:08
The shelving has a different type of stress applied...vertical stress primarily vs. km has more shearing/horizontal stress to the attachment area.
I still consider thin aluminum rails to resist cracking and/or breaking than polymer rails, and I beat living crap outta my m16a2 in the Corps. I don't recall ever worrying about the hand guard.
In all fairness, nothing was ever attached to the hand guards.
FlyingChipmunk
03-07-16, 18:53
I got wondering, does KeyMod need approval from a certain company to use the brand?
(For example, to receive MLok's specification and use the brand name, you require approval from MagPul)
I got wondering, does KeyMod need approval from a certain company to use the brand?
(For example, to receive MLok's specification and use the brand name, you require approval from MagPul)
I thought both KM and MLock were "open" designs, without licensing, to promote investment into the designs by others?
FlyingChipmunk
03-07-16, 22:10
I thought both KM and MLock were "open" designs, without licensing, to promote investment into the designs by others?
MLok does not require licensing fee etc., but it requires an interested company to sign a no-fee licensing agreement.
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/M-LOK-Release_FAQs.pdf
It's to benefit both the manufacturer and MagPul and it makes sense.
556BlackRifle
03-08-16, 02:24
MLok does not require licensing fee etc., but it requires an interested company to sign a no-fee licensing agreement.
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/M-LOK-Release_FAQs.pdf
It's to benefit both the manufacturer and MagPul and it makes sense.
And Keymod is open source.
Mrgunsngear
03-08-16, 02:51
I got wondering, does KeyMod need approval from a certain company to use the brand?
(For example, to receive MLok's specification and use the brand name, you require approval from MagPul)
No. And unfortunately there are some "KeyMod" accessories out there that do not have the lug that will loosen/fall off and then people blame KeyMod when in fact the design wasn't followed.
TheChunkNorris
03-08-16, 04:30
I don't have pics but I managed to break a BCM grip on a Noveske NSR rail. It was a combination of my Kung Fu grip and the fact the grip moved a little requiring me to tighten it too much.
Had my HSP Thorntail w/ Enforce WML work it's way loose and fly off my BCM KMR once. However, I assume it was an install error on my part. The Thorntail mount was slightly hitting against my front BUIS so I do not think it was seated all the way. After re-positioning it has been fairly solid.
mebiuspower
03-08-16, 06:16
I thought both KM and MLock were "open" designs, without licensing, to promote investment into the designs by others?
Only Magpul is allowed to produce polymer MLok handguards.
EDIT: sorry, same info was posted previous page.
Primus Pilum
03-08-16, 12:15
Primus, I completely disagree. Your logic is flawed, if we followed your logic then the ar15 platform itself. I recall it being stated "over engineered" "too strict tolerances" "aluminum is to weak for a fighting rifle" etc. All new innovations go through a break in period. I consider the KMR to be a great step in the right direction.
Negative. The design itself requires too thin a section of metal to secure it. That alone is enough of a reason to ditch it. The attachment method is also mistake prone and does not have a good margin of error. Self correcting attachment methods would be a huge improvement. Designs that are going to be manipulated by the lowest common denominator need to take that into account. Ignoring all of that, SMU and known quantities who have shown first hand how weak the design is should be a clue.
Comparing the AR15 (Or M16 if you want to get specific) to a aluminum rail is apples to oranges. The AR was not designed to be a "kit" gun that everyone put together in their basement. It was not until decades after it's introduction that people started to build guns from a pile of parts. It was a latent modular design that grew into itself through many years of revisions and testing. You didn't see M16's breaking in half and receivers cracking because the pressure and stress was contained in a steel barrel extension, barrel and bolt. The aluminum for the most part is only a chassis or frame for everything else to fit in and move. The section that needs to hold the torque and pressure on a rail section needs to be stout. The Keymod design requires too thin a section for conventional materials.
The KMR is probably the worst example of this, as the alloy used is also a factor. Companies are trying to get thinner and lighter and are realizing that they need reinforced areas to keep structural integrity. The Gisselle Rails are a perfect example. Light where it can be and overbuilt in the stress areas. You won't find a better designed and engineered rail on the market.
Keymod is breathing its last breath. I called it years ago. MLOCK is simply a superior mounting platform, is more user friendly and has institutional support in the industry. The ability to get a object closer to the rail on keymod is a great advantage, but not at the cost of the losing or breaking an expensive piece of equipment because of a mounting failure.
The net is littered with examples of keymod failing. This thread is as well. IF the stars have to align for it to work, then its not really that good to begin with. I don't understand that despite the evidence, people keep trying to justify an inferior product?
Only Magpul is allowed to produce polymer MLok handguards.
NEGATIVE. Free and open is free and open. Anyone is allowed to produce anything out of anything...as long as it meets the standard for cross compatibility in order to use the logo--that's what the license covers. Pretty much make it so that it works with everyone else's stuff, and we don't care if you create a product that robs from our sales.
It would be pretty sleazy if we said..."free for everyone as long as you don't compete with us." That's lame.
556BlackRifle
03-08-16, 12:56
NEGATIVE. Free and open is free and open. Anyone is allowed to produce anything out of anything...as long as it meets the standard for cross compatibility in order to use the logo--that's what the license covers. Pretty much make it so that it works with everyone else's stuff, and we don't care if you create a product that robs from our sales.
It would be pretty sleazy if we said..."free for everyone as long as you don't compete with us." That's lame.
Great business ethics. This is one of the many reasons I'm a Magpul customer.
JackFanToM
03-08-16, 14:30
Negative. The design itself requires too thin a section of metal to secure it. That alone is enough of a reason to ditch it. The attachment method is also mistake prone and does not have a good margin of error. Self correcting attachment methods would be a huge improvement. Designs that are going to be manipulated by the lowest common denominator need to take that into account. Ignoring all of that, SMU and known quantities who have shown first hand how weak the design is should be a clue.
Comparing the AR15 (Or M16 if you want to get specific) to a aluminum rail is apples to oranges. The AR was not designed to be a "kit" gun that everyone put together in their basement. It was not until decades after it's introduction that people started to build guns from a pile of parts. It was a latent modular design that grew into itself through many years of revisions and testing. You didn't see M16's breaking in half and receivers cracking because the pressure and stress was contained in a steel barrel extension, barrel and bolt. The aluminum for the most part is only a chassis or frame for everything else to fit in and move. The section that needs to hold the torque and pressure on a rail section needs to be stout. The Keymod design requires too thin a section for conventional materials.
The KMR is probably the worst example of this, as the alloy used is also a factor. Companies are trying to get thinner and lighter and are realizing that they need reinforced areas to keep structural integrity. The Gisselle Rails are a perfect example. Light where it can be and overbuilt in the stress areas. You won't find a better designed and engineered rail on the market.
Keymod is breathing its last breath. I called it years ago. MLOCK is simply a superior mounting platform, is more user friendly and has institutional support in the industry. The ability to get a object closer to the rail on keymod is a great advantage, but not at the cost of the losing or breaking an expensive piece of equipment because of a mounting failure.
The net is littered with examples of keymod failing. This thread is as well. IF the stars have to align for it to work, then its not really that good to begin with. I don't understand that despite the evidence, people keep trying to justify an inferior product?
Again Primus I must disagree with much of your statement. First, "The net is littered with examples of keymod failing" that statement alone is telling....the internet is full of misinformation (also idiots on the internet believe in zombie apocalypses and other assorted fairy tales...the internet is not a good source to quote -maybe a specific site, but not as a whole) , and if investigated, most failings are user error. Second, "The attachment method is also mistake prone and does not have a good margin of error" my response would be, if you cannot take the time to figure out how to properly install keymod then maybe you should refrain from owning a firearm, as the manual of arms will be more complex than accessory installation. I have never had any issues, and most I speak to have had zero issues. Using your statement, if some moron installs his tire wrong on their vehicle, is that an engineering flaw? It is way more complex to change a tire than install a mount. Last, why do you want keymod to fail so bad? You may not personally like keymod, but for it to fail would be bad for us, the consumer (Duane would be happy as his company would gain market share).
I truly doubt keymod will die, it and mlok will surely be replaced in the future by the next "great" thing, but to say a product with this much traction will just die...seems far fetched. I think some of the logic in your argument is valid, but it still makes suppositions and assumptions.
Primus Pilum
03-08-16, 16:22
Again Primus I must disagree with much of your statement. First, "The net is littered with examples of keymod failing" that statement alone is telling....the internet is full of misinformation (also idiots on the internet believe in zombie apocalypses and other assorted fairy tales...the internet is not a good source to quote -maybe a specific site, but not as a whole) , and if investigated, most failings are user error. Second, "The attachment method is also mistake prone and does not have a good margin of error" my response would be, if you cannot take the time to figure out how to properly install keymod then maybe you should refrain from owning a firearm, as the manual of arms will be more complex than accessory installation. I have never had any issues, and most I speak to have had zero issues. Using your statement, if some moron installs his tire wrong on their vehicle, is that an engineering flaw? It is way more complex to change a tire than install a mount. Last, why do you want keymod to fail so bad? You may not personally like keymod, but for it to fail would be bad for us, the consumer (Duane would be happy as his company would gain market share).
I truly doubt keymod will die, it and mlok will surely be replaced in the future by the next "great" thing, but to say a product with this much traction will just die...seems far fetched. I think some of the logic in your argument is valid, but it still makes suppositions and assumptions.
The reason it was popular was Noveskee, BCM and KAC pimped it. Certain personalities sell guns and these products were placed in their hands for photo ops and videos.
The alternative was something like a Troy rail or a full 1913 rail system. From that standpoint, it has merit. Fast forward a few years and we now see that it does NOT hold up under heavy use and needs to be installed perfect for it to not come loose. Now that Mlock is out there, it has proven to be a superior mounting platform and in case you haven't noticed, that is where the market is going. MI, KAC, Gisselle, ect are all moving to MLOCK and I would bet dollars to donuts that the Keymod products and users will dwindle each year until you are dodo birds.
There are plenty examples of failures in this thread alone, if you wan't to discount everything on the net, then why are you here? You asked for examples and they are out there in droves. It's ultimately up to you how much validity you place in each instance. There are thousands of products out there. What makes your lack of having an issue an indicator of the entire population? Its a single data point. If the failure rate on a parachute model was 15% but you hadn't experienced a failure yet, would you still jump? What if the alternative was a model with a .5% failure rate? Which one would you rather jump from?
No one is perfect, even a SME can make a mistake and install something wrong. A design that mitigates those mistakes will always be preferable to relying on perfection. You think everyone who buys a keymod or Mlock is a Rhodes Scholar? Alienating a large segment of your customers is not a good idea. Easy, reliable and repeatable will always beat complicated and mistake prone.
I do not care one way or another If (really when) keymod fails. Looking at it objectively, it's inevitable. One is simply a superior product. There is way too much justification bias in here from people who own/spent money on the product. You see the same mentality everyday when people post "I bought XYZ, tell me how good I did" threads.
Primus Pilum
03-08-16, 16:26
Serious question:
When you see VFG'g attached via Keymod that are completely sheared off, is that just internet noise or BS to you? What about when they are in the hands of verified individuals and units?
JackFanToM
03-08-16, 17:17
Considering I have yet to see one that it has happened too, and the vast majority of issues are due to improper mount construction or improper use, yes BS. Primus, if you truly believe the vitriol that you are spewing, y bother? According to you km is dead and buried. Based on how sensitive you are to this subject, lets merely agree to disagree and wait for the funeral of km that you already foretold.
skimbleshanks
03-08-16, 18:22
No data on my end, but some of my reasons for staying away. 1913 rails work. Can't really damage them by installing something 180°. It is a known and proven system, it's not proprietary. All the issues with km in this thread are attributed to improper installation, quality control issues, dodgy material selection. I ask this, if key mod is such a tight window of torque values and nut hardness/ slot hardness or material selection, can be damaged by allowing parts to be put in backwards, is it really that good of a design. I stuck with 1913 rails after they were no longer "popular" but I don't see threads or discussions about 1913 being flawed. Just saying.
JackFanToM
03-08-16, 19:17
I wasn't there, but I'm sure 1913 rails went through some growing pains. Almost all new innovations do, including the ar platform as a whole.
Primus Pilum
03-08-16, 19:29
I wasn't there, but I'm sure 1913 rails went through some growing pains. Almost all new innovations do, including the ar platform as a whole.
Negative. 1913 was a specification. Want to take a guess why it's called a Picatinny rail? Keymod is a fail design. It is already on the way out as the design is flawed. It would have to be redesigned into something non backwards compatible to solve the problems.
There were/are companies out there who still fail to maintain MIL-STD-1913, but that is their failure. Go with a reliable company who actually follows the spec, and there is no problem. There is always going to be a small variance but for most of the quality interfaces out there, they adjust so its not an issue.
http://www.biggerhammer.net/picatinny/1913_specs.pdf
Rifleman_04
03-08-16, 20:51
No data on my end, but some of my reasons for staying away. 1913 rails work. Can't really damage them by installing something 180°. It is a known and proven system, it's not proprietary. All the issues with km in this thread are attributed to improper installation, quality control issues, dodgy material selection. I ask this, if key mod is such a tight window of torque values and nut hardness/ slot hardness or material selection, can be damaged by allowing parts to be put in backwards, is it really that good of a design. I stuck with 1913 rails after they were no longer "popular" but I don't see threads or discussions about 1913 being flawed. Just saying.
This is exactly why keymod will never make it. It won't be adopted by the mil as its so far from grunt proof it's not even funny. I imagine keymod equipped rifles making one trip out of the armory and through one training cycle and the hand guards will be garbage.
FWIW, you cannot fix stupid. I've seen a Schmidt Bender scope destroyed because a corded impact wrench was used to tighten the mount. I've also seen an ADM mount locked into position with a hammer because the user had no idea you could, and should adjust it for proper tension. What I'm getting at is if you give someone stupid something complex, they will break it no matter what it is. That being said, I agree that keymod is not caveman proof.
Serious question:
When you see VFG'g attached via Keymod that are completely sheared off, is that just internet noise or BS to you? What about when they are in the hands of verified individuals and units?
I'd say let those "units" and "individuals" speak for themselves. I'm wondering what your frame of reference is to those instances mentioned? First hand? Or just an internet stenographer tracking Keymod failures and re-reading them to us here for consumption?
JackFanToM
03-09-16, 15:39
No Primus is obviously is hell bent on killing keymod all by himself. I still don't understand why any consumer would want to kill any type of competitive products. Competition leads to both innovation and inexpensive products. I say the more the merrier, but hell I'm nothing more than a consumer, not an omnipotent being like Primus capable of predicting the future.
Keymod is breathing its last breath. I called it years ago.
Citation, for reference purposes? Was your prediction based on your own research on the matter, or again a compilation of anecdotes from the internet?
These answers will matter in the grand scheme of things, and for once in my life I couldn't care any less about MLok or KeyMod over my old DD and LaRue pic rails....
Mysteryman
03-09-16, 17:04
No Primus is obviously is hell bent on killing keymod all by himself. I still don't understand why any consumer would want to kill any type of competitive products. Competition leads to both innovation and inexpensive products. I say the more the merrier, but hell I'm nothing more than a consumer, not an omnipotent being like Primus capable of predicting the future.
Who said anything about consumers killing a product? Some of us see the flaws and failures in the design and choose not to use equipment that fails. Much the same way anyone with half a clue wouldn't run UTG quad rails on their rifles. Garbage gear is garbage gear. Keymod is neat, but it has many shortcomings. Not adopting it and forcing companies to ADAPT and INNOVATE is far more progressive than perpetuating the production of inferior gear by purchasing it. Cheap sh*t is how Walmart stays in business.
MM
JackFanToM
03-09-16, 17:14
Innovation happens on products that are utilized, not ones that die. Your argument holds no water, and comparing a product to a manufacturer also doesn't work...like calling ARs Bushmasters (I think the media does this to perpetuate misinformation). UTG is a manufacturer, and keymod is not. I see politicians use the same tactic I see being used here. Rather than stand on the merits that you have, you digress into bad mouthing the opponent to build yourself up. It works on the general public. I see no upside to either mlok or km dying an untimely death.
Primus Pilum
03-09-16, 17:39
Citation, for reference purposes? Was your prediction based on your own research on the matter, or again a compilation of anecdotes from the internet?
These answers will matter in the grand scheme of things, and for once in my life I couldn't care any less about MLok or KeyMod over my old DD and LaRue pic rails....
I bought a KMR when they first came out, My brother bought one as well. He is a member on this site and has been for way longer than I have. He can chime in if he pleases. Both of us trashed them in less than 6 months when he crushed his rail by overtorquing it, and I broke a section off with a VFG by slamming it into a barrier during a timed course. Both went into the circular file bin and we went back to URX 3.1 or DD rails. Mlock comes along and I say its a gimmick just like keymod and will never be as reliable as a real 1913. He picks up one of MI rails for his SCAR and after playing with it, realize how much better of a design it is. Much more reinforcement in the weakest areas and the mount is much less likely to move under recoil.
So yea he caused the failure to his rail but its should have never happened in the first place. You shouldn't need to be a metallurgist with a $600 SnapOn TQWR to determine what grade of metal and what level of torque to use to secure a rail section so you can put a light on your rail. Using the VFG as a barrier stop is something I have done for years so I am going to say the mounting interface is weak. The alloy used was weak. All at the expense of trying to get lighter/smaller/ect.
So no, I don't have a video or voice recording of my telling my shooting buddies that keymod is crap or that Mlock or some other new system will render it obsolete. You are already seeing companies move away or onto other options so you would have to take my word on it.
All I want is products that make me shoot faster, more accurate, weigh less and increase reliability/durability. If it doesn't do those 4 than it serves no purpose. I think most of the posters who are approaching this objectively and have considerable time with all 3 mounting methods understand exactly what I am saying. I'm not even sure why its a debate at this point. Science & stuff.
http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/19/07/13/03/ar1_0110.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/view/19071303/41)
http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/19/07/13/03/ar1_0113.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/view/19071303/44)
http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/19/07/13/03/ar1_0111.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/view/19071303/42)
http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/19/07/13/03/ar1_0112.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/view/19071303/43)
Install in correct location and direction with attention to proper seating, then apply torque to screws, drawing in the tapered nuts until torque is reached.
Draw in with equal increments.
No Loktite needed.
Use it, retorque if needed and your done.
Note;
Do not use the screws and tapered nuts to draw in the attachment to the hand guard.
The attachment should be in proper position and seated before drawing in the tapered nuts via the screws.
Big difference.
Clarence
I see that with my questions the tenor of the reply changes, and that you're just a normal guy like the rest of us who want good gear and have broken some stuff, shredded some things that many users find robust and are otherwise no one really special, doing extensive testing and evaluation with a repeatable methodology or process.
Cool. Frame your responses in that vein, and we can avoid this sort of interaction going forward.
The high-horse from which you were preaching was calling a metric s-ton of attention to yourself, and not the good kind.
I bought a KMR when they first came out, My brother bought one as well. He is a member on this site and has been for way longer than I have. He can chime in if he pleases. Both of us trashed them in less than 6 months when he crushed his rail by overtorquing it, and I broke a section off with a VFG by slamming it into a barrier during a timed course. Both went into the circular file bin and we went back to URX 3.1 or DD rails.
No doubt that sucks. Did you contact BCM about the failure? I've slammed the VFGs on my KMRs and NSR into plenty of barriers and never had any issues.
Myself, I begin to question the KMR rail rather than keymod.
JackFanToM
03-10-16, 14:04
Dave, most of this is internet mumbo jumbo...it seems there are a great many people that "know" someone who had an issue with no supporting data (or the data points to user error or accessory manufacturing error). This is like the loch ness monster or bigfoot...tons of sighting, but no real evidence. The KMR original does sacrifice some strength to gain some weight savings, but the KMR A adds strength, as it is a stronger aluminum.
There are a few very active folk on this forum, that for some reason have decided it is their duty to proclaim keymod as substandard, and since they are frequent posters it tends to add additional noise to all of these posts. None of them have demonstrated an actual account that can be supported with pictures, and thus far the pictures we have seen have not shown an actual KMR or KM failure.
It is your money, tune out the noise, look for facts and honest reviews, then make your decision based on YOUR needs and wants. I tend to enjoy trying new products, so I'm willing to gamble on if they actually function as claimed...thus far the KMR has stood the test of time for me.
I work with the general public, and it is my experience that the average joe tends to blame the product rather than their own ignorance. I see people constantly that tell me their rental car is flawed, or that our wifi is not working, or that we don't offer such and such channel, or even the TV is broken. 99 times out 100 it is user error, and that ratio will hold true with most things.
I'm not going to repost it, but if you truly understand basic mechanical operation and physics, you can look at twang and bang's km video and see that the product performs as promised.
I already own several keymod rails and they have taken care of me just fine.
None are KMR rails though... ;)
JackFanToM
03-10-16, 14:15
Then you know the truth already :D
There is an SMU that returned KeyMod guns (from probably one of the folks that executed it best) for M-LOK guns because of multiple and persistent attachment failures. The link to the group with that account from the horses mouth is in this thread, and just about anyone can join and read it. Colt CA tested and chose M-LOK, etc. I'd love to share more, and will do so when able. As I said earlier, it depends what you're doing with it and your needs. If KM is working for you, great. If it's not, that's fine too. M-LOK is here for you.
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