View Full Version : FNS discharged in officers holster?
platoonDaddy
03-04-16, 04:33
Interesting story out of Balto County PD, a FNS discharged while in an officer's holster. Just doesn't pass the smell test.
From local news:
http://foxbaltimore.com/news/cover-story/how-safe-are-police-service-weapons
Heard that FN recommends not having a round chambered, thought that was BS, So I did a google on the manual:
from page 4, surely that is a lawyer thing? !!
Do not carry your FNP-40 with a cartridge in the chamber.
For good safety practice, it is recommended that a cartridge is not chambered until immediately before you will fire the pistol.
For law enforcement and military personnel, refer to the procedures of your department on carrying a loaded pistol with a cartridge in the chamber.
https://www.fnamerica.com/files/5714/3335/8329/07-691-FNH_FNP40_Reprint.pdf
my bad - earlier reports said FNP 40 but "Budget" located article that stated it was FNS-40
Update: The county officers use a Safariland 6360 ALS®/SLS Mid-Ride, Level III Retention™ Duty Holster and based on todays press release, the weapon was secured in the holster. From the article they have had other issues with the firearm.
Note the following:
Rank and file Baltimore County Police, their firearm selection committee, and agency brass are now very uncertain about that choice, after what appears to be the accidental discharge of one of these pistols while it was secured in a retention holster and both of the officer’s hands were full. When the supervising officer removed the gun from the retention holster, he removed the magazine and ejected the spent cartridge.
Could it have been a FNS-40? Not to spark the DA v Striker debate train but maybe there was something in the holster? You're right, this doesn't pass the smell test. I wonder what kind of holster is used, maybe its an old Sig or Glock holster that they're trying to make work and there was a gap at the trigger guard?
Also I thought the FNP line was discontinued for the FNX line.
I don't have in front of me, but I recall my FNP-45 manual stating the recommendation to carry condition 3 but that it ultimately is agency policy that should dictate how to carry. Been a while since I read that over.
Either way, glad no one was hurt.
ETA:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-county/bs-md-co-service-weapon-discharge-20160302-story.html
Looks like FNS-40 and they're saying "accidental discharge" and that no one saw it.
Meh... whenever somebody unintentionally cranks one off, the standard response always seems to be... "it just went off".
Interesting story out of Balto County PD, a FNS discharged while in an officer's holster. Just doesn't pass the smell test.
From local news:
http://foxbaltimore.com/news/cover-story/how-safe-are-police-service-weapons
Heard that FN recommends not having a round chambered, thought that was BS, So I did a google on the manual:
from page 4, surely that is a lawyer thing? !!
Do not carry your FNP-40 with a cartridge in the chamber.
For good safety practice, it is recommended that a cartridge is not chambered until immediately before you will fire the pistol.
For law enforcement and military personnel, refer to the procedures of your department on carrying a loaded pistol with a cartridge in the chamber.
https://www.fnamerica.com/files/5714/3335/8329/07-691-FNH_FNP40_Reprint.pdf
my bad - earlier reports said FNP 40 but "Budget" located article that stated it was FNS-40
Check out some more firearms manuals. Literally every pistol manual on earth recommends an empty chamber. This is ass-coverage. The HK VP9 manual has the exact same bullshit in it.
Also, if I had to guess, this is probably an ND where the officer tries to blame the gun instead of admitting a mistake.
platoonDaddy
03-04-16, 08:03
Check out some more firearms manuals. Literally every pistol manual on earth recommends an empty chamber. This is ass-coverage. The HK VP9 manual has the exact same bullshit in it.
Also, if I had to guess, this is probably an ND where the officer tries to blame the gun instead of admitting a mistake.
Did check my Glock manual and if it is in there, I certainly didn't see.
Will be interesting to see how this shakes out, if any further stories on the incident, I will post.
Meh... whenever somebody unintentionally cranks one off, the standard response always seems to be... "it just went off".
Truth.
It has been my experience as well that these "immaculate discharges" particularly the ones that occur in holsters are usually: 1) not witnessed by anyone else 2) not attributable to any found mechanical failing 3) the result of poor handling of a firearm.
We had one such case where a firearm supposedly discharged in holster, following a detailed armorer inspection which found no defect another kind officer volunteered his holster as a home for the delinquent pistol. Years later it has yet to misbehave again.
platoonDaddy
03-04-16, 17:00
The county officers use a Safariland 6360 ALS®/SLS Mid-Ride, Level III Retention™ Duty Holster and based on todays press release, the weapon was secured in the holster. From the article they have had other issues with the firearm.
Note the following:
Rank and file Baltimore County Police, their firearm selection committee, and agency brass are now very uncertain about that choice, after what appears to be the accidental discharge of one of these pistols while it was secured in a retention holster and both of the officer’s hands were full. When the supervising officer removed the gun from the retention holster, he removed the magazine and ejected the spent cartridge.
http://bearingarms.com/baltimore-county-police-stunned-accidential-discharge-new-pistol/
Gremlins are to blame here.
Desk pop?
Seriously though I was told there were witnesses that corroborate the officers statement. Is the FNS a fully tensioned striker?
Now while I admit anything mechanical can fail - part of me wonders if they will discover some home gunsmithing on trigger parts.
dwhitehorne
03-04-16, 19:47
Uniformed Officers in Baltimore use the 40 long slide. I talked to them in detail before we started our pistol eval. They were very pleased with the FNS 18 months ago. I wonder if something was in the holster like jacket zipper or snap that goes around the holster. Even with to much polishing on the sear edge something has to override the firing pin stop. Like pulling the trigger. FNS has a hinged trigger like the M&P. If anything moves the trigger to the rear it's going to fire. I see officers on the outdoor range all the time holster their pistol and catch part of the cruiser jacket in the holster. Our issued jacket has these one inch wide straps that are suppose to snap behind the holster. They always unsnap and come loose when you sit down. David
platoonDaddy
03-04-16, 19:54
Desk pop?
Seriously though I was told there were witnesses that corroborate the officers statement. Is the FNS a fully tensioned striker?
Now while I admit anything mechanical can fail - part of me wonders if they will discover some home gunsmithing on trigger parts.
No witnesses from latest news reports and not sure if that area was monitored by a camera. Supposedly his hands were full, opened a secure door and the discharge occurred.
I agree will be interesting to see if any modification or alteration to the firearm.
No witnesses from latest news reports and not sure if that area was monitored by a camera. Supposedly his hands were full, opened a secure door and the discharge occurred.
I agree will be interesting to see if any modification or alteration to the firearm.
I wasn't referencing news reports. A coworker used to be with Balt. Co. and keeps in touch with folks there. They told him there were witnesses.
The PD sent the gun to a lab for evaluation. Should be interesting indeed.
We had an officer have an ad when his jacket pull string ended up in the trigger guard as he went to reholster the draw string caught the trigger.
Maybe this guy had same situation and as he pulled open the door the pull string "pulled" the trigger????
Meh... whenever somebody unintentionally cranks one off, the standard response always seems to be... "it just went off".
That's the claim for EVERY **** up, not just an ND. In our county's jail some idiot opened up a computer operated door on accident in our maximum security housing section and the story is that "it just opened"
Mrgunsngear
03-05-16, 13:35
We had an officer have an ad when his jacket pull string ended up in the trigger guard as he went to reholster the draw string caught the trigger.
Maybe this guy had same situation and as he pulled open the door the pull string "pulled" the trigger????
My money is on this.
No witnesses from latest news reports and not sure if that area was monitored by a camera. Supposedly his hands were full, opened a secure door and the discharge occurred.
I agree will be interesting to see if any modification or alteration to the firearm.
Trying to open a door with his hands full?? Does that men he was using his gun to activate a handle??? With my hands full I can use my hip to lower or raise an old fashioned door handle. If one was to use his gun as a lever I can see bad stuff happening.
Atleast nobody was injured. Hopefully they sort it out objectively and solve the issue be it training or mechanical.
I have one coming next week but mine has a thumb safety on it. (1911 guy)
Still curious how it just "went off"
I suspect it was either a ND or actual AD. In my light bearing duty holster I can easily get my finger, let alone something else, into the trigger guard and pull the trigger on my Glock.
Luckily no one was injured, he'll be made fun of for years but everyone went home. It is possible something got in there and made the gun go boom when he didn't want it to.
I suspect it was either a ND or actual AD. In my light bearing duty holster I can easily get my finger, let alone something else, into the trigger guard and pull the trigger on my Glock.
Luckily no one was injured, he'll be made fun of for years but everyone went home. It is possible something got in there and made the gun go boom when he didn't want it to.
This is one of the shitty things about light bearing duty holsters. Safariland makes a hell of a retention system but their desire to make a holster for multiple lights leaves me kind of put off. My Raven Concealment holster has a little gap around the trigger but not nearly as big. I'm kind of starting on a rant here but I think Safariland's recent near total take over of the police duty gear market hasn't been such a great thing.
This is one of the shitty things about light bearing duty holsters. Safariland makes a hell of a retention system but their desire to make a holster for multiple lights leaves me kind of put off. My Raven Concealment holster has a little gap around the trigger but not nearly as big. I'm kind of starting on a rant here but I think Safariland's recent near total take over of the police duty gear market hasn't been such a great thing.
Good point about the holsters but I think some level of professional responsibility on the part of LEO's (or anyone carrying a gun for a living) needs to be maintained. At my academy we were taught to be extremely careful of such things and especially cords or what-not in and on jackets. They even had an instructor with scissors inspect our jackets and cut those doo-dads out on the spot. If a person doesn't test their gear and clothing for issues then they are a statistic waiting to happen.
Good point about the holsters but I think some level of professional responsibility on the part of LEO's (or anyone carrying a gun for a living) needs to be maintained. At my academy we were taught to be extremely careful of such things and especially cords or what-not in and on jackets. They even had an instructor with scissors inspect our jackets and cut those doo-dads out on the spot. If a person doesn't test their gear and clothing for issues then they are a statistic waiting to happen.
I agree wholeheartedly and I personally do just about anything to avoid wearing a coat because they make getting at gear a pain in the ass but I still wish there wasn't so big an opening that I can reach my index finger inside and touch the trigger. It just doesn't sit well with me.
Auto-X Fil
03-13-16, 18:27
Literally every pistol manual on earth recommends an empty chamber. This is ass-coverage. The HK VP9 manual has the exact same bullshit in it.
That's not even close to true. Ruger, FN, and H&K manuals are the only places I've seen that. H&K striker-fired guns say the weapon must be clear (empty chamber) when carried in a holster, and their other guns must be decocked or on manual safety.
Ruger's wording is wishy-washy:
For maximum safety when carrying the pistol
with a loaded magazine in place, the chamber
should be empty, and the slide should be
closed
Here's from my PPS manual - the same exact text is in the S&W M&P manual:
• If you wish to restore the magazine in your pistol to its full capacity, depress the magazine
release and remove the magazine from the pistol. Remember that there is a round in the
chamber; therefore, the firearm should be holstered or safely secured during this process
without touching the trigger. Load one cartridge into the magazine to replace the one
which was chambered when you allowed the slide to carry forward.
My XD, Glock, Kimber, Kel-Tec, Beretta, Sig, and Springfield manuals don't say anything either way.
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