View Full Version : Looks like the Russians captured Bushmaster M4's
Looks like the Russians captured a bunch of Bushy M4's from Georgia. :o
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Georgia/Untitled-13.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Georgia/Untitled-2-1.jpg
Now they can get plagued by loose carrier keys. :D
BushmasterFanBoy
08-18-08, 23:00
I think this is why the Georgians lost so bad! :D
LOL Delivered by Blackwater??
K.L. Davis
08-18-08, 23:13
So now we know what happened to the... what was it, couple of few hundred Shrubmasters that were part of that contract purchase we keep hearing about :rolleyes:
It was a diabolical plan...boobytrapped Bushys are tossing carrier keys and stovepiping cheap Wolf ammo all over greater Russia...Gotta love the CIA.... :D
I've been told that the Russians have had access to Diemacos for some time, but they still prefer the Kalashnikov. This proves that you can lead a horse to water...
I think it has been known for a while that Georgia signed a deal with Bushamster for M4geries. Yesterday I read an informal interview with an Army CPT who stated that when the SHTF the Georgians ended up reverting back to their AK's and not using the marksmanship and aimed fire principles that they were taught. I wonder if Russia is going to exploit this somehow?
ARsforlife
08-19-08, 04:42
LoL! @ the look on the guys face in the first pic holding the gun.
:)
Da, Komrad. These are the one with crappy parts we read about on M4carbine.net. :D
LoL! @ the look on the guys face in the first pic holding the gun.
:)
MisterWilson
08-19-08, 08:17
Quoted from somewhere else:
"Look Comrade, a purple weapon! The Joker is making rifles for the military now."
From the way that russian was examining the AR in the first picture, it would appear that he is totally "amazed" at the sight of this strange looking weapon! :D ...like it was alien or something .... hehehe
Seriously though, I wonder why the Georgians never got around to issuing those Bushies to it's soldiers? Those ARs look brand new!
That is great! Maybe the Russians will try and use the against us and we will win without any effort. :D
What if really funny is that the BM's have 16" barrels. Apparently they (Georgia Military) have NFA laws like us.
C4
I believe that the story I read stated that they had been using them and were still getting training when the SHTFF. Then they immediately switched over to what they knew better which was the AK.
From the way that russian was examining the AR in the first picture, it would appear that he is totally "amazed" at the sight of this strange looking weapon! :D ...like it was alien or something .... hehehe
Seriously though, I wonder why the Georgians never got around to issuing those Bushies to it's soldiers? Those ARs look brand new!
From the way that russian was examining the AR in the first picture, it would appear that he is totally "amazed" at the sight of this strange looking weapon! :D ...like it was alien or something .... hehehe
Seriously though, I wonder why the Georgians never got around to issuing those Bushies to it's soldiers? Those ARs look brand new!
They were issued. I have pictures somewhere from earlier this year when they bought them and carried them in a parade in Tblisi.
Ever heard the saying "never fired and only dropped once"?
I support them as allies, but damn man........
MisterWilson
08-19-08, 09:54
That is great! Maybe the Russians will try and use the against us and we will win without any effort. :D
What if really funny is that the BM's have 16" barrels. Apparently they (Georgia Military) have NFA laws like us.
C4
Those look like 14.5's to me.
Just curious but, since these were sent to the military, would they be fully auto? Or 3 round burst? They don’t look like it to me because of where the fire selector would stop. But I’m not sure.
First, those are 14.5 inch barrels.
Second, they have a selector that rotates 180 degrees.
The second picture showed a gun with the selector in the AUTO position.
If you look closely at picture #2, the weapon in the middle that clearly shows the "snake" the selector lever is in the burst/ auto position. My guess is they are full-auto, like ours and not burst. But that is a SWAG.
Just curious but, since these were sent to the military, would they be fully auto? Or 3 round burst? They don’t look like it to me because of where the fire selector would stop. But I’m not sure.
Don't everybody jump on me at the same time. How do we know that Bushmaster didn't manufacture them to US mil spec. They could if they wanted to.
Okay I'm ready, have my full armor on.
BushmasterFanBoy
08-19-08, 13:08
I believe that the story I read stated that they had been using them and were still getting training when the SHTFF. Then they immediately switched over to what they knew better which was the AK.
You can't blame somebody for picking up the rifle they are most comfortable with when SHTF. When the Russians invade my country, I'm picking up the rifle I'm familiar with, not some foreign un-carrier key staked gun.:D
Someone here should know whether or not Bushmaster had setup their production facilities to meet the TDP. Maybe Georgia was invited to develop their own TDP?
Does Israel get Bushies?
No absolutely not. I would have probably done the same.
You can't blame somebody for picking up the rifle they are most comfortable with when SHTF. When the Russians invade my country, I'm picking up the rifle I'm familiar with, not some foreign un-carrier key staked gun.:D
Here are the new accounts;
Russia "seizes U.S. weapons" near Georgian town
15 Aug 2008 09:27:23 GMT
Source: Reuters
MOSCOW, Aug 15 (Reuters) - Russia said on Friday its forces had seized U.S.-made weapons from a Georgian military base near the town of Senaki, but added there had been no gunfire in Georgia in the past 24 hours.
"Our forces have seized 1,728 arms in Senaki," Colonel-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy head of Russia's General Staff, told a news conference.
Nogovitsyn expressed fresh doubts about the nature of U.S. cargo being dispatched to Georgia. "We would like to know whether there is a humanitarian or some other kind of military cargo, but we don't have this information." (Reporting by Dmitry Zhdannikov and Conor Sweeney)
US privatises its military aid to Georgia
* Nick Paton Walsh in Tbilisi
* The Guardian,
* Tuesday January 6 2004
* Article history
The Pentagon is to privatise its military presence in Georgia by contracting a team of retired US military officers to equip and advise the former Soviet republic's crumbling military, embellishing an eastward expansion that has enraged Moscow.
After a Georgian appeal for support to the US defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, during a visit last month, a team of 20-30 private defence consultants are already in Tbilisi. Their employer, a Washington security firm, Cubic, has a three-year $15m contract with the Pentagon to support all aspects of the Georgian ministry of defence.
A senior western diplomat said: "One of the goals is to make the army units capable of seizing and defending a given objective. The consultants will work with US defence liaisons in the US Tbilisi embassy and the European command in Stuttgart." He said the programme could continue for much longer than three years.
About 60 US military trainers arrived in Georgia in the summer of 2002 to help the dilapidated military deal with the perceived threat of terrorists linked to al-Qaida hiding in the Pankisi gorge, on the border with Russian Chechnya.
The "train and equip" programme, which left the Kremlin silently fuming at a Pentagon presence on its southern border, was supposed to end this year.
Georgia has long sought a US base on its soil. "Our desire was to continue the train and equip programme, and [Mr Rumsfeld's response to our request] was this idea," Tedo Japaridze, the foreign minister, told the Guardian.
A Georgian security official said the Cubic team would also improve protection of the pipeline that will take Caspian oil from Baku to Turkey through Georgia. Georgia has already expressed its gratitude by agreeing to send 500 troops to Iraq.
The western diplomat said the US was also considering creating in Georgia a "forward operational area", where equipment and fuel could be stored, similar to support structures in the Gulf.
The two moves would combine to give Washington a "virtual base" - stored equipment and a loyal Georgian military - without the diplomatic inconvenience of setting up a permanent base in a country where Moscow already has two controversial bases.
Under an international agreement, the Russian facilities should be dismantled within three years. But Mr Japaridze said: "We have been having that discussion for five years, so it is quite surreal." The Kremlin has said it will withdraw by 2011.
The diplomat said there remained 80-100 Chechen militants in the Pankisi gorge. He said "a handful" of them were international terrorists linked to al-Qaida, and that they could move across the borders, particularly into Azerbaijan. Georgian officials have long insisted that the gorge is no longer a problem.
Meanwhile, it has emerged that President George Bush secretly wrote to Eduard Shevardnadze in the week after his resignation as Georgia's president, thanking him for his historic decision that brought a bloodless end to weeks of mass protest.
A source close to the ex-president said: "The letter was personal. It said he had made a very good choice, and that the new leaders lacked experience and could benefit from his." Mr Japaridze confirmed the letter was "personal in nature".
Here's another picture.
http://s57.radikal.ru/i155/0808/54/22d2bf969753.jpg
Looks like they aren't the only thing being seized either.
Russia seizes US vehicles
By John Matthew Hall and AP
Tuesday, 19 August 2008
Independent.co.uk Web
Russian soldiers today held blindfolded Georgian servicemen at gunpoint and commandeered US Humvees in a dramatic sequence of events in Poti, a key Black Sea port.
White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe stated that if Russia has seized any US military equipment in Georgia, it must return it immediately.
In Poti, on the Black Sea, Russian forces blocked access to the naval and commercial ports this morning and towed the missile boat Dioskuria, one of the navy's most sophisticated vessels, out of sight of observers. A loud explosion was heard minutes later.
Several hours later, an Associated Press photographer saw Russian trucks and armored personnel carriers leaving the port with about 20 blindfolded and handcuffed men riding on them. Port spokesman Eduard Mashevoriani said the men were Georgian soldiers.
The Russians also took with them four Humvees that were at the port awaiting shipment back to the United States after taking part in earlier US-Georgian military exercises.
The deputy head of Russia's general staff, Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, said in Moscow that Russian forces plan to remain in Poti until a local administration is formed, but did not give further details. He also justified previous seizures of Georgian soldiers as necessary to crack down on soldiers who were "out of any kind of control ... acting without command."
A small column of Russian tanks and armored vehicles left Gori on Tuesday, and a Russian officer said they were heading back to South Ossetia and then Russia. It was the first sign of a Russian pullback of troops from Georgia.
The column, which also apparently included a mobile rocket-launcher, passed the village of Ruisi, outside Gori on the road to South Ossetia on Tuesday afternoon.
Col. Igor Konoshenkov, a Russian military officer, told The Associated Press at the scene the unit was headed for South Ossetia and, ultimately, back to Russia. He gave no timetable for when the unit would reach Russia.
Konoshenkov said it was part of the Russian pullback mandated by a cease-fire that requires both sides to return to positions held before fighting broke out Aug. 7 in South Ossetia, a separatist Georgian province with close ties to Russia.
Elsewhere, Russia they exchanged POWs with Georgia and pulled back some troops from the strategic city of Gori.
It was a day of deeply mixed messages that left the small, war-battered country full of anxiety about whether Russia was aiming for a long-term military presence in Georgia or whether it was just trying to inflict maximum damage before adhering to a EU-brokered cease-fire and troop pullout.
they have a selector that rotates 180 degrees.
Maybe that thing had one in the chamber and went off while they were looking at it. WHAM!! kill a commie for mommy.
cessnapilot
08-19-08, 21:38
You can't blame somebody for picking up the rifle they are most comfortable with when SHTF. When the Russians invade my country, I'm picking up the rifle I'm familiar with, not some foreign un-carrier key staked gun.:D
You'll be waiting a helluva long time for that to happen .
ARsforlife
08-19-08, 21:43
interesting,
If I'm not mistaken, that is the same command that contracts the foreign military sales items for U.S. embassy FMS offices worldwide. If that is the case, they could be buying those guns for anybody worldwide. It doesn't mean the DOD is getting them, it would mean that somewhere a foreign military asked for them.
DoD handles FMS sales. It also avoids ITAR.
RogerinTPA
08-19-08, 21:55
The mystery of this myth/story has been revealed! Excellent plausible deniability on the US's part and the Russki's got the BMs to boot! Watch in about a year, they will reverse engineer that POS and say its the AK-08! :eek:
So now we know what happened to the... what was it, couple of few hundred Shrubmasters that were part of that contract purchase we keep hearing about :rolleyes:
You can't blame somebody for picking up the rifle they are most comfortable with when SHTF. When the Russians invade my country, I'm picking up the rifle I'm familiar with, not some foreign un-carrier key staked gun.:D
Agreed. :)
ETA: Bushmaster or not, I still hate to see a "good" AR go to waste! :(
Agreed. :)
ETA: Bushmaster or not, I still hate to see a "good" AR go to waste! :(
You do have to wonder where they will turn up.
don't know how or why they ended up with the bushmaster m4s.
while i was visiting some people with the IDF i did see a large number of m-16's that were not made by colt. mostly of the a1 vintage H&R, hydromatics ect.
some really old commandos & CAR's --might have been former USAF?
what i want to know is where did the PLO come up with all those M-16's???:confused:
The US has given guns and training to the PLO in the past.
The US has given guns and training to the PLO in the past.
I believe in those cases the US gave guns to Palestine and those guns wound up in PLO hands.
What if really funny is that the BM's have 16" barrels. Apparently they (Georgia Military) have NFA laws like us.
C4
Could get ugly if it is found that they are non-NFA guns that were illegal exported and then converted in-country.
Could get ugly if it is found that they are non-NFA guns that were illegal exported and then converted in-country.
These were a well publicized contract through the US gov't.
What a difference 7 months makes...... :(
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=10841&highlight=georgia
Bloody hell that pisses me off when the freeking US State Dept won't even allow a damn factory telestock up here now!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad:
Boltgun
I believe that the story I read stated that they had been using them and were still getting training when the SHTFF. Then they immediately switched over to what they knew better which was the AK.
Exactly!
First of all, Who ever advised the Georgian Govt. to roll the Army into South Ossetia better be back at Langley working on a change of address.
Remember that Most of the Georgian Senior NCO's and Field Grade Officers were part of the Old Soviet Army. They knew that if Mother Russia ever rolled south, SHTF would be an understatement. Surviving Georgian Army units would be cut off from any re-supply and it would be impossible to find 5.56 NATO on Dead/Captured Russians or from Russian Supply Convoys/Depots. AK makes good sense.
No battleplan survives first contact with the enemy!
Sidewinder6
08-21-08, 11:47
Exactly!
First of all, Who ever advised the Georgian Govt. to roll the Army into South Ossetia better be back at Langley working on a change of address!
You probably need to look no further than Arlington on that one. Either way, the Georgian's did not give a good accounting of themselves.
I wonder what the Georgians down the street here in Baghdad were thinking as they headed to the airport? Probably something along the lines of "Oh God let the Mahdi Army hit us so we don't have to fight the Russians".
You probably need to look no further than Arlington on that one. Either way, the Georgian's did not give a good accounting of themselves.
You probably need to look no further than Arlington on that one. Either way, the Georgian's did not give a good accounting of themselves.
It will be awhile before we see a factual AAR.
I met a few Georgian Soldiers at a Joint NATO exercise in Lithuania in 2004, they would have done well to pass the Girl Scout PT test (yes I know this does not represent the whole). Maybe the AD USMC guys have a better take on the Georgian Army since they were on the ground not too long ago.
On the other hand It would be tough for anyone to invade Lithuania, (some bad dudes in that Army) and tough to leave.... The most Beautiful Women I have ever seen.
I wonder what the Georgians down the street here in Baghdad were thinking as they headed to the airport? Probably something along the lines of "Oh God let the Mahdi Army hit us so we don't have to fight the Russians".
No sleeping on that plane ride....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Georgia/1447558.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Georgia/1447560.jpg
Do those count as "fixed" bushmasters? :D
And I don't think it was quite a cakewalk for mother russia.
http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551
RogerinTPA
08-24-08, 08:43
That's an awesome link. Great photos. I wonder if American weapons produced those tank kills. The sad thing is, the soldiers are nothing more than cannon fodder for mother russia. The Russians could have taken 80% casualties and they would've still painted a rosie picture.
BMs suck but damn! What a way to go. Looks like the russians secondary mission was to destroy all US arms and aid.
Do those count as "fixed" bushmasters? :D
And I don't think it was quite a cakewalk for mother russia.
http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551
Exactly!
First of all, Who ever advised the Georgian Govt. to roll the Army into South Ossetia better be back at Langley working on a change of address.
Remember that Most of the Georgian Senior NCO's and Field Grade Officers were part of the Old Soviet Army. They knew that if Mother Russia ever rolled south, SHTF would be an understatement. Surviving Georgian Army units would be cut off from any re-supply and it would be impossible to find 5.56 NATO on Dead/Captured Russians or from Russian Supply Convoys/Depots. AK makes good sense.
No battleplan survives first contact with the enemy!
Our gov told our media almost immediately after the fact that they had noted troop movements and advised the Georgians not to do it.
Exactly!
First of all, Who ever advised the Georgian Govt. to roll the Army into South Ossetia better be back at Langley working on a change of address...!
Why? The aftermath (as far as the US is concerned) is that Georgia is still around, Poland signed the missile defense deal ASAP, and Ukraine is now offering DEW radar coverage for us.
In the world of realpolitik, not bad. Not bad at all.
Poland signed the missile defense deal ASAP,
That is far from true. Poland pushed US to sign this contract for long time and wanted it. We also provided ground for US anti-ballistic installations. Former US administration did not sign this becouse was not sure and new administration castrated it and cut down to one unarmed training Patriot battery to be here for 2 months a year. Most people here actually things that our close alliance with US is just sad joke and all we get are dead polish soldiers in Iraq and A-stan plus Russians moved additional 300 medium range missiles to polish border (in Kaliningrad area - in total they have enough them there to kill each of us three to four times). Sad but true.
U.S. contractors rifles most likely. We had an entire warehouse of weapons in Iraq. and yes...those pos Bushy M4's too.
Holy Zombie thread Batman!
Cagemonkey
08-24-10, 18:19
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Georgia/1447558.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Georgia/1447560.jpg
Is that an Israeli Negev in the lower photo off to the left?
kaltesherz
08-24-10, 18:34
Is that an Israeli Negev in the lower photo off to the left?
Looks like it, caught my eye as well...
The only good Bushmaster is a...
Is that an Israeli Negev in the lower photo off to the left?
Yep, Negev. The Israelis have had their arms guys selling whatever they can in the former Soviet Republics.
Estonia went to Iraq carrying Galils.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/EstonianTroops2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/ETroops1.jpg
rychencop, those Bushies were issued to the Georgian forces, they weren't US contractor rifles.
I wish the Russians would capture the whole dang Bushmaster factory, as well as Model 1 sales, DPMS, etc.
Mauser KAR98K
08-24-10, 21:39
If Georgia gets Bushamaster, what poor country gets DPMS?
Lower Transylmania. :sarcastic:
If Georgia gets Bushamaster, what poor country gets DPMS?
devildogljb
08-25-10, 02:14
Do those count as "fixed" bushmasters? :D
And I don't think it was quite a cakewalk for mother russia.
http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551
Im trying to figure out why in one picture one of the soldiers is wearing a marpat uniform????
Im trying to figure out why in one picture one of the soldiers is wearing a marpat uniform????
The USMC provided the vast majority of training to the Georgian army prior to the Russian invasion, and it was indeed the fact that there was a sizeable number of US troops in Georgia that pissed the Russians off.
If you click on one of the threads I linked to, there are more pictures, including one of the President of Georgia handing out the Bushies to the troops, where the troops are all in Marpat.
GermanSynergy
08-25-10, 12:27
If Georgia gets Bushamaster, what poor country gets DPMS?
The same country that will try to convince themselves that their DPMS carbines are "just as good" as Colt....:lol::lol:
The same country that will try to convince themselves that their DPMS carbines are "just as good" as Colt....:lol::lol:
This is serius stuff you know... Polish police believed that Turkish clones are as good as original HK MP5 for CT unit - lives were lost... they got G36C, G36K and HK416 now as replacement
Also our best SF unit (GROM) uses Bushmaster carbines (plus some KAC). Luckily in last few years all were replaced in 1st line teams with HK416, but 2nd line (pencil pushers, but in those unit all maintain some level) still use those well worn out Bushmasters and KACs.
For people who were made those purchases at very early '90s, all "M4s" looked same, and Bushmaster was cheapest to get...
BTW Sorry for kicking up this zombie - got pointed to this tread from other and did not notice how old is last post :nono:
Magic_Salad0892
08-25-10, 23:25
H&K over KAC?
What barrel length?
H&K over KAC?
Of course. From our (mean Polish Army) point of view HK beats KAC at:
1. Better "name", as worldwide recognized big manufacturer.
2. Cheaper price.
3. Better performance on designated fields of use.
4. Better service and support (exists!).
5. More reliable partner to work with and depend on (not liabilities like changing moods of US foreign policy or Department of State or ATF entaglements).
What barrel length?
10.5", 14.5", 16.5" plus some HK417 in different barrel lenghts as well.
Our 1.PSK (equivalent of Rangers) got HK416 in 14.5" and 16.5".
Don't everybody jump on me at the same time. How do we know that Bushmaster didn't manufacture them to US mil spec. They could if they wanted to.
Okay I'm ready, have my full armor on.
After all, BM does have a bootleg copy of the TDP...so they could.
Magic_Salad0892
08-26-10, 11:12
Of course. From our (mean Polish Army) point of view HK beats KAC at:
1. Better "name", as worldwide recognized big manufacturer.
2. Cheaper price.
3. Better performance on designated fields of use.
4. Better service and support (exists!).
5. More reliable partner to work with and depend on (not liabilities like changing moods of US foreign policy or Department of State or ATF entaglements).
10.5", 14.5", 16.5" plus some HK417 in different barrel lenghts as well.
Our 1.PSK (equivalent of Rangers) got HK416 in 14.5" and 16.5".
Huh. That's really interesting. Thanks for that. :)
syclone170
08-26-10, 17:44
Bushmaster or DPMS are still better in combat than an AK-47 and by the way, Chile and Jordan armies are issued DPMS ....
kaltesherz
08-26-10, 18:38
Bushmaster or DPMS are still better in combat than an AK-47 and by the way, Chile and Jordan armies are issued DPMS ....
LOL really? How do you figure questionable QC and poor manufacturing beat out quality and combat proven reliability? I wasn't aware Chile bought DPMS anything, they have Colts and maybe someone screwed up somewhere and bought some DPMS but they primarily use locally made SIG 55X series clones.
Aside from the claim by DPMS do you have knowledge of this? When I was in Jordan I saw Colt M4's, and the Special Forces were using the G36. There is also a rumor that they are going to start producing the LWRC 6.8. If I was in that environment I would choose an AK47 over a DPMS or BM.
Bushmaster or DPMS are still better in combat than an AK-47 and by the way, Chile and Jordan armies are issued DPMS ....
LJNoobicon
08-26-10, 19:19
Bushmaster or DPMS are still better in combat than an AK-47 and by the way, Chile and Jordan armies are issued DPMS ....
I disagree, a poorly built AR v. a solid AK ? I try to stay away from the AK v AR arguments but come on.
syclone170
08-27-10, 01:38
I disagree, a poorly built AR v. a solid AK ? I try to stay away from the AK v AR arguments but come on. my poorly built AR is my coyote and prairie dog rifle and is very accurate and I have owned AK's and SKS's and still do... no comparison in range and accuracy...
Neither of which will be very useful if the gun fails.
my poorly built AR is my coyote and prairie dog rifle and is very accurate and I have owned AK's and SKS's and still do... no comparison in range and accuracy...
Combat_Diver
08-27-10, 04:21
Bushmaster or DPMS are still better in combat than an AK-47 and by the way, Chile and Jordan armies are issued DPMS ....
I'm with Iraqgunz on this, what is your source for Jordan? Everytime I've worked with them they had either Colt M16A1s, Colt M16A2 (with auto not burst) and Colt M4A1. This was with the Jordian SF units from 85-98' when I trained with them in Jordan.
CD
Magic_Salad0892
08-27-10, 04:36
Wouldn't an A2 with auto be an A3?
Combat_Diver
08-27-10, 04:47
Wouldn't an A2 with auto be an A3?
In the US Armed Forces yes, but the M16A3 wasn't classified until the late 90s. These Colt M16A2s had full auto instead of the 3 round burst that our new M16A2s had, time frame was 1987-88 when I was in Wadi Rum in Jordan. On a similiar note USJFKSWC had M16A2 Carbines (thats what was marked on the receiver) with full auto before the adoption of the M4A1.
CD
wow , such a shame, all those wonderfull bushmasters destroyed.:(
i just love my bushy, best rifle i've ever owned.
peabody
BTW Georgia forces armament was even more interesting:
DMR Rifle:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/PIC-0007.jpg
Recognize? :eek:
Fuzzy-Reticle
08-27-10, 12:41
BTW Georgia forces armament was even more interesting:
DMR Rifle:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/PIC-0007.jpg
Recognize? :eek:
European version of Hk Sl8 with highcap mag?
Is that an Israeli Negev in the lower photo off to the left?
Israeli soldiers were on the ground with US forces during the short campaign. HK GmBH got in trouble with their gov't because some of the weapons found were HK G36s; some with no serial numbers (according to some reports).
All of this was reported and I posted a little bit about it during that time.
jstephens202
08-27-10, 15:26
I think the "Which AR maker is better" argument can go anyway anyone wants it too. All weapons are tools and, as we all know, some tool brands are better then others but it boils down really to the hand holding the tool. Some manufacturers are known for outstanding QC and products, but somebody, somewhere, has got a horror story about "Brand X".
I currently have a Bushmaster and have gotten very, very good use from it. Doesn't mean I won't have a problem in the future, but it has been a great performing rifle for me......
I think the "Which AR maker is better" argument can go anyway anyone wants it too. All weapons are tools and, as we all know, some tool brands are better then others but it boils down really to the hand holding the tool. Some manufacturers are known for outstanding QC and products, but somebody, somewhere, has got a horror story about "Brand X".
I currently have a Bushmaster and have gotten very, very good use from it. Doesn't mean I won't have a problem in the future, but it has been a great performing rifle for me......
I had a PreBan E2S w/20" that I bought back in 1993. I used it for SWAT duty for a number of years. I never had trouble with it, it shot fine and served its purpose. I sold it last spring to a guy in NY state (disabled Marine OIF Vet). I tossed in my used surefire w/mount and pad along with a few preban mags. Last report it was doing well, but I think it will be tricked out by now for long range shooting. Now, would I buy another one? Nope. I think Bushmaster slipped in QC over the years, and I would never buy another 1/9 twist from anybody. I also look at my rifles as an investment and Bushmaster is just not one of them.
LJNoobicon
08-27-10, 17:01
my poorly built AR is my coyote and prairie dog rifle and is very accurate and I have owned AK's and SKS's and still do... no comparison in range and accuracy...
Maybe I should have been more clear. I was not questioning their accuracy or range more so their reliability and function. Range and accuracy mean little if your rifle isn't operational. Granted you or I have the resources and general knowledge to make a lower quality AR "right" they probably don't.
How do you figure questionable QC and poor manufacturing beat out quality and combat proven reliability?
Assuming the weapon platform has inherent quality manufacturing and QC is a bad idea, even if it is an AK.
deleted because I posted before I realized my comment was redundant.
Rauch Tactical
08-28-10, 08:30
They were issued. I have pictures somewhere from earlier this year when they bought them and carried them in a parade in Tblisi.
Ever heard the saying "never fired and only dropped once"?
I support them as allies, but damn man........
The invasion of Georgia made everyone look bad. The Russian's called our bluff as allies but they also displayed some truely piss poor soldiery according so some reports I heard from Georgians.
Much of the training they were promised never materialized and for a country of around 4 million people they did all they could facing the Russians largely on their own. As far as the bushies go the blame really lies with the whoever made the recommendation.
GermanSynergy
08-28-10, 10:17
Bushmaster or DPMS are still better in combat than an AK-47 and by the way, Chile and Jordan armies are issued DPMS ....
A well trained operator with a properly zeroed AK is a formidable foe, and AK's can be employed effectively, in spite of what the mid stream popular gun press says.
IIRC the Chileans use/issue locally manufactured SIG rifles manufactured by FAMAE, and what others have said regarding the Jordanians- when I was there I saw Colts and even an odd Beretta AR70/90 in Amman.
Rauch Tactical
08-28-10, 20:23
A well trained operator with a properly zeroed AK is a formidable foe, and AK's can be employed effectively, in spite of what the mid stream popular gun press says.
IIRC the Chileans use/issue locally manufactured SIG rifles manufactured by FAMAE, and what others have said regarding the Jordanians- when I was there I saw Colts and even an odd Beretta AR70/90 in Amman.
So very true. AKs in good hands do the job quite well every day.
Heartland Hawk
08-28-10, 22:44
It was a diabolical plan...boobytrapped Bushys are tossing carrier keys and stovepiping cheap Wolf ammo all over greater Russia...Gotta love the CIA.... :D
:lol:
The_War_Wagon
08-31-10, 19:55
Now they can get plagued by loose carrier keys. :D
ROFLMAO!!! :lol:
OneInchPunch
08-31-10, 20:37
wow , such a shame, all those wonderfull bushmasters destroyed.:(
i just love my bushy, best rifle i've ever owned.
peabody
wow thank god at least someone on here isn't slamming a damn fine arms maker. im not the most experienced but after reading this...i have a bushmaster and know lots of guys who do and have thousands more rounds downrange than me and never one problem. just because it doesn't say colt doesn't mean its a piece of shit. i have yet to see a problem in mine at all. everything fits tight, and the rifle is 3/4 inch at 100yds with a 2moa cheap ass red dot. prove to me that a bushmaster is really the huge piece of shit you guys are saying (not opinion, or bad experiences that happen with all arms makers) it is and i will shut up. but holy shit i would love to have a crate of those for myself :).
OneInchPunch,
I am happy for you and your BM. Regardless it is an established fact that they have alot of issues and take shortcuts. Take some time to read through these pages and the other threads to see first hand. In case you have missed it, I will highlight some of these issues for you.
1. Tight chambers
2. Batch testing of barrels and bolts not individual testing as per the milspec.
3. Bolt carrier key screws not staked properly.
4. Castle nuts not staked.
5. Commercial lower receiver extensions- also not made per the milspec.
6. Crappy buffers.
Run your carbine/rifle though a real course and let us know how it holds up. As some of learned everything is good until you start to stress the weapon.
Finally you are citing one example. I had 500 examples to choose from and the problems I saw were across the board.
wow thank god at least someone on here isn't slamming a damn fine arms maker. im not the most experienced but after reading this...i have a bushmaster and know lots of guys who do and have thousands more rounds downrange than me and never one problem. just because it doesn't say colt doesn't mean its a piece of shit. i have yet to see a problem in mine at all. everything fits tight, and the rifle is 3/4 inch at 100yds with a 2moa cheap ass red dot. prove to me that a bushmaster is really the huge piece of shit you guys are saying (not opinion, or bad experiences that happen with all arms makers) it is and i will shut up. but holy shit i would love to have a crate of those for myself :).
Atleast the commies got the bad ones. ;)
just because it doesn't say colt doesn't mean its a piece of shit.
This is correct. It's not a piece of shit because it doesn't say Colt. That it says Bushmaster means it's from a company with a proven history of significant departures from the TDP and puts out a sloppy product that's unlikely to stand up to the rigors the design is meant to shrug past, much less take. And does it at a price point similar to that of the Colts they clone...
What it is, is a plinker's gun because Bushmaster doesn't engage in nearly the QC practices that Colt and similar top-tier companies do. Many (I'd hazard to say most) here are looking at it from a standpoint of an individual shooter zapping something like 8-15k rounds/year out of a single gun. An out-of-box Bushy is highly unlikely to stand up to that kind of firing schedule. So, consider the general frame of reference compared to your own. If your frame of reference is different, then you're subject to its boundaries until you push them.
Result to consumer; say you coughed up $900-1100 for your stick, you did so for what is actually a $600-800 gun, to which you have to add the $$$ you'd need to spend to make some reliability enhancements that you wouldn't otherwise have to spend if one simply did some market research.
So, Bushy = POS? Perhaps not, in and of itself. Lousy value, presuming a journeyman's firing schedule instead of a hobbyist's and knowing that Bushy QC issues (see IG's abridged list above) can deadline a gun on even a hobbyist's sched? Undoubtedly. Price = what you pay at the register. Cost = price x time. Bushy doesn't come close to measuring up in the cost department. Not truth, but hard immutable fact.
Read up. Prove it to yourself. The work's been done for you, all you have to do is sift through it and note the trends.
OneInchPunch
09-01-10, 18:58
This is correct. It's not a piece of shit because it doesn't say Colt. That it says Bushmaster means it's from a company with a proven history of significant departures from the TDP and puts out a sloppy product that's unlikely to stand up to the rigors the design is meant to shrug past, much less take. And does it at a price point similar to that of the Colts they clone...
What it is, is a plinker's gun because Bushmaster doesn't engage in nearly the QC practices that Colt and similar top-tier companies do. Many (I'd hazard to say most) here are looking at it from a standpoint of an individual shooter zapping something like 8-15k rounds/year out of a single gun. An out-of-box Bushy is highly unlikely to stand up to that kind of firing schedule. So, consider the general frame of reference compared to your own. If your frame of reference is different, then you're subject to its boundaries until you push them.
Result to consumer; say you coughed up $900-1100 for your stick, you did so for what is actually a $600-800 gun, to which you have to add the $$$ you'd need to spend to make some reliability enhancements that you wouldn't otherwise have to spend if one simply did some market research.
So, Bushy = POS? Perhaps not, in and of itself. Lousy value, presuming a journeyman's firing schedule instead of a hobbyist's and knowing that Bushy QC issues (see IG's abridged list above) can deadline a gun on even a hobbyist's sched? Undoubtedly. Price = what you pay at the register. Cost = price x time. Bushy doesn't come close to measuring up in the cost department. Not truth, but hard immutable fact.
Read up. Prove it to yourself. The work's been done for you, all you have to do is sift through it and note the trends.
here is what i am doing since reading this:
1. making a test video of how many rounds i have fired throught the gun (with factory parts) to prove it.
2. saving up for another (LWRC M-6 A3 i think)
3. still shooting and loving my bushmaster.
to address the previous comment, i have put mine through courses much like the courses run in a lot of training academies. no malfunctions. i have run it dry, no malfunctions. i have used wolf, ae, pmc, umc, winchester, and many other brands of ammo, no malfunctions; and many other "tests" to check the reliability and shoot-ability. so if a good gun by your definition is a gun that does not malfunction and a gun that shoots accurately, you cannot define MY example as a bad gun and neither can you batch define guns. individually every company will produce a bad gun once in a while. though it may happen more frequently with some companies than others it STILL happens. also in my experience with Bushmaster they have always stood behind their products. my gun shop provides the rifles and handguns for many of the county and local law enforcement agencies in my area, the all CHOSE Bushmaster as their carbine. believe me they were very thorough in their testing and research and did not feel the need to "upgrade". to this day (they purchased the guns over 3 years ago) i have not seen one officer come back with anything bad to say about their guns. i may be young, but stupid i am not, i may be less experienced but unskilled i am not. for what its worth my cousin bought a colt about 5 years ago, the second magazine run through the gun the bolt carrier cracked where it meets the buffer spring. he took it to the gun store, and they called colt. colt denied that it could be anything they did wrong and said that the gun must have been modified or tampered with and would not cover the damages. my cousin (a mean bastard) got on the phone and chewed ass for about 20 min until they agreed to send him a new bcg free of charge. no more problems since then.
OneInchPunch, you're talking to guys who have seen these used in theater by security companies that were duped into buying them, and all the issues that came from that.
Take a look at #3 here and understand that when an Industry Professional or Subject Matter Expert weighs in, it's best to sit tight and listen to what they have to say. (https://www.m4carbine.net/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item)
As others have said, numerous times.....CAN Bushmaster make a great carbine? Yes. Do they make their carbines to the same standards as Colt, which has the military contract for the M4 and who has been making the M16 FOW for 4 decades?
No.
Is the likely hood that you'll have more issues with a Bushmaster out of the gate higher than with a company that adheres to TDP like Colt or a company that may exceed TDP, like some of the other top names?
Yes.
Bushmaster has great customer service.....great. If I were a contractor in Iraq and my carbine shit the bed while I was on a convoy, in the middle of a firefight because the bolt decided at that particular moment to break, that doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.
Does that mean that YOUR Bushmaster is a piece of shit? NO.
Does it mean that you should probably listen to what guys who are professional trigger pullers are telling you after seeing hundreds of these things?
Yes.
I started this thread two years ago, not as a way to bash Bushmaster, but because I thought it was very interesting that the Georgian gov't went with Bushmaster over getting Colt M4's via US military assistance.
Rauch Tactical
09-01-10, 20:19
In Georgia like many ex-bloc countries nothing happens without someone getting paid. This I imagine is why they got bushmasters, they went with the highest bidder so to speak.
OIP,
A few things have been made perfectly clear while reading your responses.
1. You are defending your purchase like many others have done before you.
2. You fail to realize that many departments and agencies purchase their firearms based upon one thing- cost.
3. You try to balance the short comings of Bushmaster by saying that other manufacturers also produce crappy products. I have repeatedly said that anything man made can fail and NO COMPANY is exempt from making something out of spec.
4. Many LEO's do not put alot of rounds through their weapons. I am sure that other LEO's will validate that. Again money for ammo and time are a big factor.
5. Customer service doesn't mean shit if you are in Iraq or Afghanistan and need assistance. For one there are many other issues to deal with like ITAR restructions, DDTC approval and of course shipping times. I can tell you from first hand experience that we had to wait an average of 2-3 months from the time we submitted an order until it was approved and all of the red tape was finalized.
That may be acceptable for Bubba going to the range, but not when you need stuff yesterday to keep your weapons up and running.
I for one used to be more stupid than I am now, and I have purchased rifles in the past that were less than ideal. However, I do claim the capacity to learn and improve, so I have sold many of those less than optimal firearms in order to purchase firearms which are top quality. If I can come to the realization that my initial purchase decision was flawed, then IMO there should be no reason for others to be unable to learn when presented with the facts. In the past I wondered why guys would pay $1500 for a Colt AR15 when they could buy another brand for $800. Now I understand why.
OIP,
1. You are defending your purchase like many others have done before you.
2. You fail to realize that many departments and agencies purchase their firearms based upon one thing- cost.
3. You try to balance the short comings of Bushmaster by saying that other manufacturers also produce crappy products. I have repeatedly said that anything man made can fail and NO COMPANY is exempt from making something out of spec.
4. Many LEO's do not put alot of rounds through their weapons. I am sure that other LEO's will validate that. Again money for ammo and time are a big factor.
5. Customer service doesn't mean shit if you are in Iraq or Afghanistan and need assistance. For one there are many other issues to deal with like ITAR restructions, DDTC approval and of course shipping times. I can tell you from first hand experience that we had to wait an average of 2-3 months from the time we submitted an order until it was approved and all of the red tape was finalized.
richdkim77
09-02-10, 01:04
I will attest to the fact most LEO's, at least on my department do not put in much trigger time with their AR's. They are also some of the cheapest people on the planet :D. I'd say most of my fellow officers put no more than 200 rounds through their carbines per year. The last time they it saw a cleaning or maintenence was the last time they had a qualification.
FWIW, my first carbine for duty use was a Bushmaster. I bought it during the ban when it was hard to get one configured with all the evil features and frankly I just didn't know any better. The gun has never given me problems, and even ran through a 1200 round carbine class flawlessly. I still carry the gun on duty daily, but the only parts that are original is basically the lower. (which is probably why it made it through the class) Would I buy a Bushmaster again because this one was trouble free? Absolutely not, there are so much better options for the money. I'm hoping to finish my new 14.5 BCM middy in time for the next quals.
Eurodriver
09-02-10, 01:29
In the past I wondered why guys would pay $1500 for a Colt AR15 when they could buy another brand for $800. Now I understand why.
Now adays, its almost like "Why are you even considering a Bushmaster?"
I can get brand new 6920s for $1099 out the door. M&Ps at a shop down the street are selling for $1129 plus tax.
Now adays, its almost like "Why are you even considering a Bushmaster?"
I can get brand new 6920s for $1099 out the door. M&Ps at a shop down the street are selling for $1129 plus tax.
Clyde Armory sells DDXVs for $999 and DDM4s for $1179 all day, everyday. Why would you want to go second or third teir?
OneInchPunch
09-02-10, 23:29
Rifle #1
16” Heavy Profile ChromeMoly Vanadium Steel Barrel - Chrome lined in both Bore and Chamber for easy chambering, long life and quick clean-up – Manganese Phosphate finished to protect against corrosion or rust. Muzzle is threaded and fitted with an A2 “Birdcage” Flash Suppressor.
• Dual Aperture Rear Sights on A2 models have 1 M.o.A. elevation adjustments and ˝ M.o.A. windage adjustments with a 300-800 meter range. The A3 Type Carbines (Removable Carry Handle included) have ˝ M.o.A. adjustments for both elevation and windage with a 300-600 meter range. The A3 Upper has a Picatinny rail for the attachment of sights, scopes, or night vision optics. A2 Front Post Type Sights are elevation adjustable
• Upper and Lower Receivers are machined from 7075 T6 aircraft aluminum and Hard Anodize finished to a non-reflective matte black. Uppers feature an interior dry film lube coating for smooth operation.
• Six Position Telescoping Stocks are fitted - overall carbine length with stock collapsed is 4“ shorter for easy handling in tight confines.
• Shipped in a Lockable Hard Case with Operator’s Safety Manual, 30 Round Magazine, Orange Safety Block and Black Web Sling
Rifle #2
Unique direct gas operating system eliminates the conventional operating rod and results in fewer and ligher components
- Accommodates the full range of 5.56mm ammunition, including the NATO M855/SS109 and U.S. M193, utilizing a rifling twist of 1 turn in 9" (229mm)
- Straight-line construction disperses recoil straight back to the shoulder, increasing handling capabilities, especially during repeated fire
- 4-position sliding buttstock allows the weapon to adapt to users of different sizes and physical characteristics as well as various firing positions and clothing variations
- Cartridge case deflector allows easy operation in both right and left handed shooting positions for increased tactical applications
- Muzzle compensator further reduces muzzle climb and helps eliminate flash and dust signatures
- Ejection port cover protects the chamber from dust and mud
- Field strips easily without special tools for simple field user maintenance
- Flat top receiver allows for removable carrying handle and easy mounting of accessories
- Front barrel lug allows for easy mounting of a variety of accessories
- Two 20 round magazines, cleaning kit and slng are standard. 30-round magazines are optional
- Target style rear sight features dual apertures (0-200m, 300-600m) and adjusts for both windage and elevation
- High strength materials add durability to the forearm, buttstock and pistol grip for greater comfort and effectiveness
yea i can really see a lot of differences...:confused:
just so nobody has to write some more to educate you, please do yourself a favor and read the "RRA evaluation" thread. It will explain alot, and it contains all the stickies that you NEED to read.
yea i can really see a lot of differences...:confused:
Since this thread has strayed beyond it's intended consequences (I am guilty also) and some people want to continue to argue as to why their Armalite, DPMS, Bushamster or whatever is supperior this one is closed. If another mod wants to open it later so be it.
It's rather ridiculous that several times a week we have to continue to justify why certain weapons are better than others.
There is a ton of information here on this site. There is a lot of first hand feedback from personnel about their experiences with brand XXX, XXXX and XXXX.
I think the best way to sum it up is this. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't suck it's ass to make it drink."
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