View Full Version : Are all police trained to kill dogs they encounter "in the course of their duties" ?
black22rifle
03-07-16, 23:13
I know there are a good amount of LEOs on here so I thought I would ask. Are all of you trained to kill dogs that you encounter "in the course of your duties"? I just read the following article and that's what was mentioned so I'm curious what policies are like in other places.
Cook claims that West Virginia state troopers are all trained to kill any dog that approaches them in the course of their duty. It doesn’t matter if the dog is aggressive or charging, or chained up with a wagging tail, like Buddy was on the day the incident took place.
http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2016/03/woman-that-stepped-between-dog-and-cop-about-to-shoot-acquitted/
Hell no. Only if you are about to get legit mauled.
If a dog is threatening, OC or a Taser is far more humane than just outright killing it.
Any outright aggressive dog I've ever encountered was trained to be that way.
As far as I know, those dogs are still walking the Earth
If you watch the attached video, the trooper didn't draw his gun. He drew a taser. There's a bit of a slant to the article as well.
No. Not once in the state academy or FTO was I ever trained to shoot dogs that weren't an immediate threat. That being said, the website this came from is obviously biased. We simply don't know what we can't hear and what we can't see out of frame, plus we don't know what prior history these folks have with law enforcement.
With those caveats in place, and relying heavily on assumptions that what we see and read accurately portray the event and post event details, I see several issues. The trooper drawing his gun upon seeing the dog backs up and doesn't immediately shoot, which is good. Given additional time without having the girl step in front of a drawn gun (very stupid and dangerous), he might have simply re-holstered once he determined the dog wasn't a threat. Now we'll never know. The bad I see is that the trooper did a piss poor job of managing the contact. He turned his back on the dog and other subjects, all while physically engaging the girl with a drawn gun. It's unavoidable in some cases, but this wasn't one of them. He had another trooper right next to him that didn't have his gun drawn. That trooper should've been the one to take control of the girl for her own safety.
IF, all they did was arrest the girl for obstruction, I see no reason for them to enter the premises and seize property without a warrant. No exigent circumstances existed and a half decent attorney should've been able to get the phones and cameras back within a few days. This is an excellent example as to why Apple shouldn't unlock phones owned and password protected by citizens. Had these folks given up their passwords, I doubt this video would still exist. Call me a cynic, but there's just too much we've seen that causes concern in this respect.
Was a crossbow taken into evidence? If not, I seriously doubt that alleged assertion by the trooper. I think obstruction wouldn’t have been the only charge if it were true. She certainly wasn’t holding one when she approached the trooper, or there would have been guns pointed at her too. If he seized property that he believed showed wrongdoing, then lied under oath and she was acquitted because the jury didn’t believe him, he should be suspended and charged with perjury.
Either way, he’d better have some concrete evidence to prove the plaintiffs wrong, or the state will be paying out on the civil trial. Granted we might not be seeing “the whole picture” here, but that video looks bad if all the other allegations are true. I’d like to give the benefit of the doubt, but we’ve seen too many cases in the past decade of LE wrongdoing to make that assumption with nothing to support it.
If you watch the attached video, the trooper didn't draw his gun. He drew a taser. There's a bit of a slant to the article as well.
Are you sure about that? I thought that might be at first, but on the reholster it appears he's left handed and that object is reholstered vertically and directly on the side, plus I can't see a gun on the right side. The mag pouches look like they're on the right (off) side as well. I don't know any officers that carry their taser like that. Unless someone can prove different, I do think that's his gun.
Negative. No training on shooting dogs ever.
I know a couple guys who have shot dogs at work. All were either actively attacking people or the officer. The number of cops I know who have had to seek medical treatment for dog bites probably outweighs the ones who have shot dogs nearly 10 to 1.
Ive had a few close calls and came really close once or twice. However the dog backed down just enough for me to grab my OC and spray it. The closest I ever came was being attacked by a dog in a yard. I was trying to get out the gate but he caught up to me. Luckily a good boot to the face stopped the dog long enough to close the gate.
Hell no. Only if you are about to get legit mauled.
If a dog is threatening, OC or a Taser is far more humane than just outright killing it.
Any outright aggressive dog I've ever encountered was trained to be that way.
As far as I know, those dogs are still walking the Earth
Sadly not every LEO has your training. I've seen a couple video instances of seriously lazy asses who shot dogs they probably could have rolled over with their foot. Worst one was some bitch who entered a fenced yard, complete with "Beware of Dog" and "No Trespassing" signs, and then shot and killed a GSD that was doing it's job and protecting the property.
She wasn't serving a warrant or anything like that, but she was trying to contact the home owner as part of an investigation. It went over really bad down here, but I think she pulled the "I feared for my life" card and kept her job. Of course some idiots think they are always entitled to go anywhere they want because they want to, and of course signs don't apply to them.
DOG LIVES MATTER !!!! time to riot
black22rifle
03-08-16, 14:59
I was just wondering what some of you thought and had experience with.
There have been a few instances locally where police have shot dogs on site becuase it "charged" them. Then again what dog wouldn't when someone is approaching the house.
No. Ive never even been close...and ive had a citizen climb on top of my patrol car to get away from a pit. OC and common sense go a long way. Now if its between me being mauled (like seriously attacked and chewed on) or shooting a dog, what would you do?
Most dogs I meet get a scratch behind the ear and a pat on the head. I like dogs, just like most police. Sorry but once again sensationalist style journalism/report strikes once again.
Sorry but once again sensationalist style journalism/report strikes once again.
Amen. Almost every cop I know, and I know a good amount of them, has a dog(s) at home
Amen. Almost every cop I know, and I know a good amount of them, has a dog(s) at home
I can think of a few that like dogs more than the people we deal with on a daily basis, for multiple reasons. The dogs actually portray behavioral traits that most turds never will...
No. Ive never even been close...and ive had a citizen climb on top of my patrol car to get away from a pit. OC and common sense go a long way. Now if its between me being mauled (like seriously attacked and chewed on) or shooting a dog, what would you do?
Most dogs I meet get a scratch behind the ear and a pat on the head. I like dogs, just like most police. Sorry but once again sensationalist style journalism/report strikes once again.
As with most things, it only takes a handful of idiots who have no business in uniform to give everyone else a bad name. Given the general bias against LEOs, most people are willing to accept their actions as "typical" of all law enforcement and the media in general is more than willing to promote that narrative.
Young adults who attack LEOs and cross the deadly force threshold are just "troubled kids who needed help and got shot instead by racist, storm troopers who were looking for an excuse to kill somebody that day."
I love dogs and never had an issues with them on the street. I carried OC just for dogs, just incase. Though even today if I have a dog actually attack me, it's getting shot.
I can think of a few that like dogs more than the people we deal with on a daily basis, for multiple reasons. The dogs actually portray behavioral traits that most turds never will...
I'll self ID as such an individual. I'm not a huge fan of humanity..
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Yep. People suck.
Like really.
To take it a step further....everytime I see a dipshit walking a Rott or a Pit with a chain leash and a spiked collar it pisses me off.
Spiked collar on a girl...sexy.
Spiked collar on a dog....infuriating
Ready.Fire.Aim
03-08-16, 19:40
http://legacy.wfaa.com/story/news/local/2014/08/21/14202876/
Deputy on burglary call fired after shooting pet dog. 2014 story from east Texas.
Seems to be an exception to shoot dogs.
Many years ago we had a training day where they put a gallon milk jug on a pulley to simulate a dog attack. Unfortunately, it does happen where you may have to shoot a dog. In warrant operations, we bring a CO2 fire extinguisher. That turns them away pretty quick. In those instances, we are more prepared for dogs unlike when on patrol. I have been attacked by dogs twice. Once, OC did the job rather quickly. The last time I got bit and the dog immediately ran away after biting me. It never crossed my mind to shoot the dog. I would have to say that if a dog bit me and locked on, I may not have another choice. I have a dog and I would not want to have to be in that situation.
SeriousStudent
03-08-16, 20:36
I can think of a few that like dogs more than the people we deal with on a daily basis, for multiple reasons. The dogs actually portray behavioral traits that most turds never will...
Where's the Like button?
I like more dogs than people. And I also have this weird ability to calm down almost any dog. It's freaky enough that I have had a fair number of people comment on it.
My son calls me "The Dog Mumbler."
In the vast majority of agencies, you are going to get the cops you pay for. If you don't pay for training, or spend training time and dollars on "Embracing your inner celestial unicorn", you are going to get stuff like this.
Failure to provide adequate training costs the lives of officers, the people they protect, and also their pets. Pretty simple, really.
For too many departments, most training decisions are an accounting decision. It's cheaper to write an occasional settlement check or pay for the random funeral. Real training costs real money.
SeriousStudent - re the you get the cops you pay for - somewhat true - but a real problem to me is administrations that don't keep their finger on the pulse of what is going on in their agencies - a firearms instructor or FTO regarded as an SME by other officers spouting some ridiculous, indefensible shit while playing to the crowd is also a problem - unfortunately sometimes admin is so far removed from the training/mentoring process they don't know WTF is going on.
Here is a an example: "Our policy is that if a suicidal subject is holding a gun to their head and they don't drop it on command we shoot." Me: Is that a written policy? Them: It's what they told us in the last in-service firearms session. Me: Who's they? Them: The firearms instructors. Me: Do you think they ran that by legal?
That kind of shit gets officers and agencies in trouble.
Yep. People suck.
Like really.
To take it a step further....everytime I see a dipshit walking a Rott or a Pit with a chain leash and a spiked collar it pisses me off.
Spiked collar on a girl...sexy.
Spiked collar on a dog....infuriating
One of the coolest FL moments I ever experienced was in a grocery store about 20 years ago and this tall, blond chick (about 6'5" in 4" heels) was walking through the store wearing thigh high spiked boots, matching push up bra, matching thong and a micro mini skirt with a spiked dog collar and a leash being held by some douchebag who somehow scored an 11.
SeriousStudent - re the you get the cops you pay for - somewhat true - but a real problem to me is administrations that don't keep their finger on the pulse of what is going on in their agencies - a firearms instructor or FTO regarded as an SME by other officers spouting some ridiculous, indefensible shit while playing to the crowd is also a problem - unfortunately sometimes admin is so far removed from the training/mentoring process they don't know WTF is going on.
Here is a an example: "Our policy is that if a suicidal subject is holding a gun to their head and they don't drop it on command we shoot." Me: Is that a written policy? Them: It's what they told us in the last in-service firearms session. Me: Who's they? Them: The firearms instructors. Me: Do you think they ran that by legal?
That kind of shit gets officers and agencies in trouble.
THIS
Plus a lot of guys aren't FTOs because they are good officers. In some cases it's an appointed position and in others it's some lazy and sorry guy who wants a rookie to handle all his paperwork and cases.
These are the guys who live and die by out of date "cheat sheets" where the ordinances or state laws may have changed or been abolished in times since or forward the myth that you can arrest someone for disorderly conduct just for calling you an asshole.
One of the coolest FL moments I ever experienced was in a grocery store about 20 years ago and this tall, blond chick (about 6'5" in 4" heels) was walking through the store wearing thigh high spiked boots, matching push up bra, matching thong and a micro mini skirt with a spiked dog collar and a leash being held by some douchebag who somehow scored an 11.
You sure it was a female??
No. That being said, if your dog jumps me and bites me and tries to hurt me, I'm going to ****in shoot it.
You sure it was a female??
Yes. Even worse the boobs were real.
ClearedHot
03-09-16, 03:56
Sadly not every LEO has your training. I've seen a couple video instances of seriously lazy asses who shot dogs they probably could have rolled over with their foot. Worst one was some bitch who entered a fenced yard, complete with "Beware of Dog" and "No Trespassing" signs, and then shot and killed a GSD that was doing it's job and protecting the property.
She wasn't serving a warrant or anything like that, but she was trying to contact the home owner as part of an investigation. It went over really bad down here, but I think she pulled the "I feared for my life" card and kept her job. Of course some idiots think they are always entitled to go anywhere they want because they want to, and of course signs don't apply to them.
I think I saw that same video and it had my blood boiling as I own a GSD.
The thing that pissed me off the most was after the cunt shot the dog, the video shows her and her partner laughing and joking.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_aPCN8n6wc
Ready.Fire.Aim
03-09-16, 15:08
One of the coolest FL moments I ever experienced was in a grocery store about 20 years ago and this tall, blond chick (about 6'5" in 4" heels) was walking through the store wearing thigh high spiked boots, matching push up bra, matching thong and a micro mini skirt with a spiked dog collar and a leash being held by some douchebag who somehow scored an 11.
hIjack: I think I saw the same or similar couple at EPCOT when we took our young girls to WDW back in 1994.
I had to do some explaining that I wasn't ready for. Wish I would have had a cell phone camera.
I think I saw that same video and it had my blood boiling as I own a GSD.
The thing that pissed me off the most was after the cunt shot the dog, the video shows her and her partner laughing and joking.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_aPCN8n6wc
Not the same one, but that one is pretty bad too. I love how officers enter a fenced yard and leave the gate open. Obviously nobody ever asked them if they grew up in a barn.
I don't think I know a mailman, newspaper delivery boy or pizza driver who doesn't know "Fence usually equals dogs." Where they get cops who haven't learned this simple rule is beyond me. Even meter readers know when you arrive at a gate you tap on it with your keys to see if there is a dog in the yard.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
03-09-16, 22:23
Are you sure about that? I thought that might be at first, but on the reholster it appears he's left handed and that object is reholstered vertically and directly on the side, plus I can't see a gun on the right side. The mag pouches look like they're on the right (off) side as well. I don't know any officers that carry their taser like that. Unless someone can prove different, I do think that's his gun.
That's exactly how I carry my Taser. Left side, vertical, right at 9 o clock.
Anyways, no, I was never trained in how to dispatch a dog in POST or any in house academy. When I went to Taser Instructor course, we were shown plenty of videos of dogs being tased.
I had an Australian Shepard dog once. You could tap, knock, whatever. Never make a sound. Once in the yard, by the time you knew she was there, it was FAR too late...
Little Ninja bitch.
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I say that if you shoot a cop K-9 it's considered shooting an officer no?
Pull a gun on a domesticated dog clearly owned by someone and it's the same as a person.
LE needs to be held to higher standards and anything less than professional perfection should be severely dealt with in every situation.
I say that if you shoot a cop K-9 it's considered shooting an officer no?
Pull a gun on a domesticated dog clearly owned by someone and it's the same as a person.
LE needs to be held to higher standards and anything less than professional perfection should be severely dealt with in every situation.
Ya......
And if Fire fighters fail to put out a house fire, they should be charged with arson, right?
(And I would assume it depends on State Statutes; however I am not aware of any that consider killing a police K9 a homicide...but since it varies state to state I could be wrong)
el_chingoton13
03-10-16, 15:55
Yea if they started the fire...they don't typically go to houses not on fire and set them on fire.
I say that if you shoot a cop K-9 it's considered shooting an officer no?
Pull a gun on a domesticated dog clearly owned by someone and it's the same as a person.
LE needs to be held to higher standards and anything less than professional perfection should be severely dealt with in every situation.
No it is not the same as shooting an LEO - in some states it is a felony, but not a capital one.
Yea if they started the fire...they don't typically go to houses not on fire and set them on fire.
Oh ok, so we're focusing on the initiator. So would the reporting party that called the Police bear responsibility in the dogicide? What if the dog is at large but owned by someone??? If we were to adhere to the absurd notion of treating killing an aggressive dog as a homicide, would the owner that allowed to poor dog to roam free be charged with negligent dog-slaughter (ie manslaughter)?
The only info/ training I received is try pepper spray and if that doesn't work do what you have to protect yourself. If attacked or it tries to bite me its getting a lead copper bonded pill. Otherwise if its a problem it can get tased, and they can find the pooch in the next county over after it quits running. Otherwise growing up around more dangerous animals you learn other signs if the animal will be a problem. But if attacked yes I would shoot it and not feel bad at all. I am a fan of hunting dogs and larger breeds but I have also been mauled by a Rottweiler before too and know exactly what a angry dog is capable of.
Collegefour
03-12-16, 20:20
I say that if you shoot a cop K-9 it's considered shooting an officer no?
Pull a gun on a domesticated dog clearly owned by someone and it's the same as a person.
LE needs to be held to higher standards and anything less than professional perfection should be severely dealt with in every situation.
Colorado POST (Peace Officer Standards & Training) has mandated Dog Protection training for all CO Peace Officers. It is about four hours of training on how to avoid a dog confrontation if possible, or how to handle it if avoidance is not possible. It also goes into some detail about the social aspects of dogs, which I suppose is aimed at those officers who never had one. This training is specifically aimed at reducing the amount of dogs killed by LEO's, but it does NOT mandate that shooting is prohibited. It merely describes the situations in which shooting a dog is permissible, which is pretty much the same as it is with people, except that dogs always have deadly weapons on them. That being said, your dream of having an officer charged with the same crime as if he killed a person, will remain just a dream in Colorado....for now.
http://legacy.wfaa.com/story/news/local/2014/08/21/14202876/
Deputy on burglary call fired after shooting pet dog. 2014 story from east Texas.
Seems to be an exception to shoot dogs.
Wow. And the owner ended the dogs suffering by drowning it?!? WTF?!?
Here is a an example: "Our policy is that if a suicidal subject is holding a gun to their head and they don't drop it on command we shoot." Me: Is that a written policy? Them: It's what they told us in the last in-service firearms session. Me: Who's they? Them: The firearms instructors. Me: Do you think they ran that by legal?
That kind of shit gets officers and agencies in trouble.
Actually that is within the law and most agencies' policies. I was taught that response by the legal instructors. It is well founded in the history of suicidal people often being homicidal. Remember action beats reaction so if the guy with the gun to his head suddenly points it at you, you will not be fast enough to avoid getting shot. It could be a ploy to figure out how to escape. It could be a hundred different things but you have no requirement to allow a person to stand there with a weapon in his hand and refuse to drop it. But don't take my word for it. Research the law and talk to legal instructors. We even had scenarios at the academy that reinforce this response because it's very hard to reprogram years of watching cops on tv try to talk the guy out of it for 30 minutes.
As for the OP and the article stating troopers are taught to shoot any dog they encounter - I sincerely hope he is talking out his ass. Most LEO's I've worked with would hate to have to shoot a dog for any reason. Sadly we have some in our profession who can't wait to shoot something and they typically get away with it because of how the laws and policies are written. Hell in most places a dog is considered property. I don't have kids so my dogs are to me what kids are to parents. I would have done the same thing as the lady in the video.
I remember fuming because that trooper years ago (I think it was in Tennessee) left the door to the family wagon open during a stop and their dog got out. He shot it like the douche-nozzle he is right in front of the family.
Actually that is within the law and most agencies' policies. I was taught that response by the legal instructors. It is well founded in the history of suicidal people often being homicidal. Remember action beats reaction so if the guy with the gun to his head suddenly points it at you, you will not be fast enough to avoid getting shot. It could be a ploy to figure out how to escape. It could be a hundred different things but you have no requirement to allow a person to stand there with a weapon in his hand and refuse to drop it. But don't take my word for it. Research the law and talk to legal instructors. We even had scenarios at the academy that reinforce this response because it's very hard to reprogram years of watching cops on tv try to talk the guy out of it for 30 minutes.
Never said it was not within the law, the key point is that an agency or individual can not define what is going to be objectively reasonable for every given circumstance.
In Graham the court said that - 'the test of reasonableness under the Fourth Amendment is not capable of precise definition or mechanical application' 'proper application (of the test of reasonableness) requires careful attention to the facts and circumstances of each particular case.'
Having a policy or training/telling someone that in every circumstance that an armed suicidal subject refuses to put down their weapon is such a mechanical application. Competent force instructors understand that and rather than providing rote rules, train their officers to act based on the totality of the circumstances that exist at the time.
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