View Full Version : Cover up? FBI Agents under investigation, Oregon standoff.
Interesting news. (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_lie_uncove.html#incart_maj-story-1)
An elaborate computer analysis, a review of the FBI aerial video of the shooting scene and a video from a passenger in Finicum's pickup produced a result that startled the team poring over evidence into Finicum's fatal shooting that day.
The fourth round, police concluded, was fired by an FBI agent who subsequently twice denied to investigators ever firing his gun. As the investigation proceeded, detectives determined he also fired a second time, but didn't hit anything at the scene.
The discovery of that gunfire and conduct afterward by the agent and four other agents have triggered a criminal investigation that could result in the prosecution of all five. The agents all serve on the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team...
More in depth article. (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_agents_und.html)
Cox's video showed that one shot hit the truck's left rear passenger window as Finicum stepped out. At the time, Finicum appeared to have his hands at least at shoulder height.
Investigators later established that the bullet entered the truck through the roof before shattering the window and concluded it was fired by an FBI agent. Another bullet from the same FBI agent apparently went wild and missed the truck altogether, the investigation showed...
Outlander Systems
03-08-16, 18:38
Pretty sure, from the video I saw, them boys murdered that old cowboy.
Interesting news. (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_lie_uncove.html#incart_maj-story-1)
More in depth article. (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_agents_und.html)
I would chalk it up to an excited office drone but it says it was an HRT member
Outlander Systems
03-08-16, 18:44
I guess SOP is to only have the "shoot" portion of shoot/no-shoot training.
ETA: this is what happens when your training regimen consists of el presidentes at 10 yards. I really would have expected better from the HRT, both in terms of competency, as well as conduct.
I would chalk it up to an excited office drone but it says it was an HRT member
It'll be interesting to see what comes of the investigation... Definitely puts a different spin on things.
Eurodriver
03-08-16, 18:52
What's up FBI agents killing people in the Northwest?
I'll withhold judgement till all the facts come out
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Outlander Systems
03-08-16, 18:56
Watch the video released by the Sheriff's Department. It pretty much flipped the script for me.
I'll withhold judgement till all the facts come out
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Outlander Systems
03-08-16, 19:59
http://youtu.be/YWLHiU8gYWY
Link to this vid?
Murder? Not even close.
Lets look at this via Graham v. Connor.
1. Severity of the crime at issue: Mr. Finnicum and Bundy (located in the vehicle) were going to be arrested on Federal charges (i.e. pc for multiple felonies)
2. Does the suspect pose an immediate threat to officers or others: Finnicum was known to be armed (actually known to carry a pistol in a shoulder holster on his left side...where he was reaching), stated numerous time he would have to be killed and would not be taken alive. Stated in previous interviews that he would respond with violence if anyone tried to arrest him. He also refused to comply with lawful orders and reached towards where a weapon could be held
3. whether he is actively resisting arrest or attempting to evade arrest by flight: Well of course he was, he fled a traffic stop, refused to comply with verbal commands prior to fleeing.
I thinks its pretty clear the use of deadly force was reasonable when looking at the circumstances above. If you want to look at it objectively that is, which the sovereign citizens that believe in the fraudulent cause of the Bundy's and Mr. Finnicum.
I feel bad for ol' Lavoy, because he was duped by the sovereign citizen kook pitch and it cost him his life. Its quite clear that he intended to be killed, for whatever reason.
Apparently nobody showed him article 4, section 3, clause 2 of the document he carried in his pocket.
Leaveammoforme
03-08-16, 21:15
Moral of the story is a person can't squat the Kings property , disregard what the Kings knights are telling them, gallop on down the Kings road and then avoid a head on horse collision by ditching a wagon. A big mistake would be attempting to retrieve your sword after the Kings archers already let some fly.
Be a good subject. Pay over half of your income to the King. Don't question what the jester tells you. Keep your head down, mouth shut and let the King do as he wishes. You shall be rewarded with some of your money when you're old and feeble if you comply.
Moral of the story is a person can't squat the Kings property , disregard what the Kings knights are telling them, gallop on down the Kings road and then avoid a head on horse collision by ditching a wagon. A big mistake would be attempting to retrieve your sword after the Kings archers already let some fly.
Be a good subject. Pay over half of your income to the King. Don't question what the jester tells you. Keep your head down, mouth shut and let the King do as he wishes. You shall be rewarded with some of your money when you're old and feeble if you comply.
No the moral of the story is, the Sovereign Citizen movement is comprised of felons, thieves, liars, the mentally ill, and violent radicals. The moral of this story is when you take up arms in an effort to take control of land that belongs to the People of the United States of America, destroy property, unlawfully use vehicles, access government data, and stalk members of the community, there are actual repercussions for such behavior. Repercussions that cant be avoided just because you use catch phrases like "freedom", "constitution", or "liberty".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKetJB4W00M
Yes they seem like pleasant folks. The tapco militia can dress up like founding fathers, in Vietnam cammies, and espouse irrational interpretations of the U.S. Constitution all they want, but their "movement" is doomed for failure.
So why were they continuing shooting at the truck with the people inside??
And what am I seeing right around 6:09 and 6:15, big balls of fire, but no one around.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-08-16, 21:31
Why four minutes before they give them instructions to exit the vehicle?
Why would the cops lie about a good shoot?
So why were they continuing shooting at the truck with the people inside??
And what am I seeing right around 6:09 and 6:15, big balls of fire, but no one around.
I believe they were shooting less lethal rounds to try and break the windows, because as you can see they started using flash bangs (ball of fire as you describe) and tear gas. Also notice at about 6:12 that Ryan Buddy has a pistol in his right hand, he's armed, was Lavoy?
Bottom line is, if Lavoy complied with the lawful orders he was given, he would be alive today. Just like everyone else involved.
I do not believe those folks went about most anything the right way, but that gal that was saying 'stay down, stay down, suck it up (if I heard correctly) at about 6:03 is a tough no bullshit gal.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-08-16, 23:19
The biggest thing I took away from the video was that the guys didn't see this as some kind of end-it-all kind of thing. This was Tuesday in their lives and were wondering why the cops had changed the ROEs. Sure Grandpa had a death wish but 'shoot me so we can go to our meeting' is not quite the roadside Alamo.
Like how the shooter on the left of the screen had his buddies as his backstop.
Bottom line is, if Lavoy complied with the lawful orders he was given, he would be alive today. Just like everyone else involved.
It's starting to look like that statement may only be true because of some poor shooting by the FBI. I can't see Finicum going for a gun when the FBI shot at him and then they lied about it. That looks pretty damning.
The thing that really gets me is the FBI is willing to blue falcon other LEO. The OSP Troopers who were justified now get to live the rest of their lives under the cloud of another FBI operation that was overly aggressive and less than transparent.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-09-16, 01:07
So no dash cams or body cams on any LEOs?
If they had footage of Trayvon or Michael Brown with their hands up as much as the guy when he gets out of the car, we'd have a lot of cops having to lawyer up.
Has it been officially stated that the OSP and FBI meant to end the stand-off and apprehend these guys from the git-go on this ride. Why were they going to see the other sheriff? That was in a different county?
So no dash cams or body cams on any LEOs?
If they had footage of Trayvon or Michael Brown with their hands up as much as the guy when he gets out of the car, we'd have a lot of cops having to lawyer up.
Has it been officially stated that the OSP and FBI meant to end the stand-off and apprehend these guys from the git-go on this ride. Why were they going to see the other sheriff? That was in a different county?
OSP and the FBI were attempting to apprehend the leaders of the standoff. The occupiers/protesters/armed rebels were on their way to John Day for a town hall meeting. Their town hall meetings were a poor attempt to brainwash the locals to fight for their cause; however most town hall meetings evolved into "go home, we don't want you here".
But hey, what the heck....it must be murder 'causin they done killed a patriot!
Outlander Systems
03-09-16, 08:20
I completely, and wholeheartedly believe those dudes were on some dumb-shit crusade. And you couldn't pick a better example of piss poor planning.
That said, setting up a roadblock in a blind curve, and opening fire on a vehicle, as well as a dude with his hands up, would earn some Pfc.'s an all-expenses paid trip, including free room and board, to Ft. Leavenworth Kansas, if, say, this was overseas.
Just sayin.
OSP and the FBI were attempting to apprehend the leaders of the standoff. The occupiers/protesters/armed rebels were on their way to John Day for a town hall meeting. Their town hall meetings were a poor attempt to brainwash the locals to fight for their cause; however most town hall meetings evolved into "go home, we don't want you here".
But hey, what the heck....it must be murder 'causin they done killed a patriot!
skijunkie55
03-09-16, 08:26
Yep, the bullets were definitely flying from the get go.
From the article... "The fourth round, police concluded, was fired by an FBI agent who subsequently twice denied to investigators ever firing his gun. As the investigation proceeded, detectives determined he also fired a second time, but didn't hit anything at the scene."
I thinks its pretty clear the use of deadly force was reasonable when looking at the circumstances above.
I'm taking no sides here, but serious question... Then why deny it?
From the article... "The fourth round, police concluded, was fired by an FBI agent who subsequently twice denied to investigators ever firing his gun. As the investigation proceeded, detectives determined he also fired a second time, but didn't hit anything at the scene."
I'm taking no sides here, but serious question... Then why deny it?
Don't know, maybe he didn't want to admit he had a N.D...or two. You'd have to ask the one agent that lied, and subsequently didn't shoot anyone (according to the information I've read). I would assume he will be dealt with per policy.
It's important to understand there were three different shootings. The two by OPS have been ruled justified.
1 OPS shot at the truck as it almost rammed the roadblock.
2 FBI as Finicum exited the truck.
3 OSP as Finicum reached into his jacket.
Number 2 is questionable to me, and also the one that the FBI is under investigation for lying about. Additional details and evidence were supposed to be released with the video but were withheld due to the investigation of the FBI cover up. I don't believe OPS wears body cams.
Rmplstlskn
03-09-16, 08:51
Needless death... Since when is "We're going to see the Sheriff" a valid reason to drive off from an arrest?
The NG's (or poor marksmanship) and resulting death and drama is just bad decisions getting worse...
Rmpl
Outlander Systems
03-09-16, 09:09
The entire thing was a soup sammich.
Poor planning, and decision-making on everyone's part.
Needless death... Since when is "We're going to see the Sheriff" a valid reason to drive off from an arrest?
The NG's (or poor marksmanship) and resulting death and drama is just bad decisions getting worse...
Rmpl
The entire thing was a soup sammich.
Poor planning, and decision-making on everyone's part.
Sure ended better than how most people thought it would play (I.E. Waco).
Outlander Systems
03-09-16, 09:30
Can't argue with that.
The Bureau's plan for cutting off the snake's head was strategically sound. The execution was poor.
Sure ended better than how most people thought it would play (I.E. Waco).
Needless death... Since when is "We're going to see the Sheriff" a valid reason to drive off from an arrest?l
To blend this with the Sovereign Citizen thread, that is pretty common in those circles. SCs don't acknowledge state, city or federal LE. Likely why they wanted to run/ ram the road block. They do, mostly, acknowledge the County Sheriff because he is a LEO elected by the people and in their eyes the only LE. From some of the available reading on the Bundy's and their supporters they have some very strong SC leanings bred from their religious beliefs.
It also helps the Sheriff was passing them information, or so it is alleged. He is currently under investigation for it by the Oregon POST.
I just don't understand why the FBI Agent would lie about it. Everything I'd seen up to that point seemed legit. He did in fact appear to be going for his weapon.
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Outlander Systems
03-09-16, 11:53
And that's my biggest issue. I've always had a very high opinion, regarding the professionalism, of the Bureau; so, to see that there is evidence of malfeasance is tremendously disappointing.
I just don't understand why the FBI Agent would lie about it. Everything I'd seen up to that point seemed legit. He did in fact appear to be going for his weapon.
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FromMyColdDeadHand
03-09-16, 13:21
I completely, and wholeheartedly believe those dudes were on some dumb-shit crusade. And you couldn't pick a better example of piss poor planning.
That said, setting up a roadblock in a blind curve, and opening fire on a vehicle, as well as a dude with his hands up, would earn some Pfc.'s an all-expenses paid trip, including free room and board, to Ft. Leavenworth Kansas, if, say, this was overseas.
Just sayin.
It is kind of interesting that they put the road block there, just about guaranteeing having to shoot a speeding car, when a hundred yards further, they would have had been at the end of a 1/4 mile straightaway. More of an ambush than a roadblock. And they had been there awhile if that one LEO was that far out in the woods.
I still don't understand why you are some anarchist wanting to take on the govt and you bring two hand guns. Either dress for the party or go unarmed.
Dirk Williams
03-09-16, 14:19
Been a member for awhile, don't say much, rarely agree with some of the more opinionated members. I'm also a retired Oregon Police Officer and Deputy Sheriff 25 years.
I'm amused J-DUB, so good at pointing out lil points of law, case law, and court opinions. Not a bad thing if your active. Good cover, after all isn't that ALL that matters? Protecting your six.
The freedom movement is filled with Felons, and dirt bags, hmm. I'm embarrassed for you man. You serve THOSE people, yes even the felons and those dirtbags.
I've tracked this for awhile now, in fact pre occupation, been emailing our local state senator and his wife is in the lower state senate. We are in agreement, this has been a goat-f--k from before the occupation. I have testified multiple time in front of Judge Hogan, with Federal prosecutor Frank Pogonia? As the fed attorney.
The judge call this case bs from the beginning, stating in substance that the intent of the federal congress WAS NOT us citizens doing ranch/ farm things. He sentenced quoting cruel and unusual punishment, language
To the case. LaVoy never once said he was going to shoot/ kill or maim federal personal. In Oregon open carry is lawful.
While I do not support the occupation of the refuge, or the Bundies, I am 100% behind the Hammonds. They got rat ****ed.
In Oregon a law enforcement agency can not create exigent circumstances, like say, setting up a hasty roadblock on a curve. In Oregon A Police officer can not shoot at a moving vehicle, thinking there going to be rammed. " at a roadblock they set up on a curve" with less then 400 feet of visibility and road to brake and maneuver in or on.
In Oregon a police officer can not assume a man exiting his vehicle is armed, a " hunch" just doesn't cut it. Isn't it interesting that the Finicum family has public ally stated that LaVoy didn't own a ruger 9mm pistol. In fact many active police officers here in southern Oregon are privately concerned, that the gun is stolen and may have been from our area.
In Oregon we can't shoot people in the back because we thought they were armed. Being armed is not a crime.
In Oregon we are required to truthfully and diligently report all facts, and turn over any weapons discharged in the course of a shooting.
In Oregon the agency involved in the shooting IS NOT allowed to be involved in the shooting crime scene investigation. "OSP crime lab was first on scene". The autopsy is full of OSP investigative notes and details. Talk about hypocrisy.
In Oregon for a sworn officer to fail to report their involvement in a shooting, and then conspire with four other team members to not report is a felony. It is assumed that their bullet casing would have been found, relatively close to where they shot.
Isn't it interesting that this investigation reports that theofficer noted in the video, was running away from Lavoys truck, not towards his truck as it is stopped by the level of snow. " it's like we the people are a bunch of idiots, and can't see what clearly just happened in the video.
Is it possible the crime scene officers failed to investigate that part of the crime scene, Or is it possible that a couple FBI agents policed their brass, in an attempt to conceal their participation.
Do we really believe that one of the FBI's highly trained teams are that bad of shots?
After 25 years, it is my observation that this will not have been the first time the FBI, have shot and failed to report their actions. This is " learned behavior" not some after action result. At a minimum EVERY case, EVERY shooting these" operators" have been involved in, needs to be re-investigated.
Isn't it interesting that in either June or July, the Oregon Department of Justice, reported that the Oregon State Police in substance are poorly lead, and shoddy investigators, and should not be involved in criminal investigations. This observation is noted in The Oregonian, news paper.
There is so much wrong with this case. I was sad to learn who the lead investigator is, a fantastic investigator.
It is clear to me, a retired officer, and multiple officers here in southern Oregon that, this investigations conclusion " cherry picked" the facts forwarded to the Media.
Listen I know I sound like a bitter old worn out cop. Are we to the point where we the people continue to believe the horse shit. And yes j-dub, this by law was a good shoot. Sadly I've been involved in around 20 incidents like this, car runs, etc etc, known felon, likely in possession of firearms.
We didn't kill anybody, we didn't have to, we simply used effective communication skills to de escalate the situation. In the LaVoy Finicum incident those officers, and FBI agents set, the playing field, and intended to kill at least shoot someone. Their actions demonstrate this fact.
They were not their to stop the crime, but to punish those who they didn't agree with. At least OSP had been " green lighted" by Oregon's governor, Brown who insisted this ordeal be wrapped up quickly.
So this is how this is going to play out. OSP and the FBI, are going to throw a large amount of money on the table, hoping that the Finicum family will take the money. In return OSP and the FBI will demand a non disclosure Claus. In fact event the a ligation of the FBI's elite hostage rescue teams actions will garner a few more million on top of what would have already been offered
Face it, the govt, does not want the facts of this case, to see the light of day.
I feel strongly about this case, due diligence here, I did respond to Kanab Utah and attend Lacoys funeral out of respect. I will continue to be engaged I standing up to tryanny when possible.
That's it, I'm done. I'll be signing off and not responding or adding links or sources.
Respectfully
Dirk Williams
We didn't kill anybody, we didn't have to, we simply used effective communication skills to de escalate the situation. In the LaVoy Finicum incident those officers, and FBI agents set, the playing field, and intended to kill at least shoot someone. Their actions demonstrate this fact.
The only person that chose to escalate the situation was the man killed. He refused to comply, fled, and then completed suicide (or martyr) by cop.
https://youtu.be/w2hobECl6b8?t=2m7s
He made it pretty clear he was not going to be taken alive.
I get it, you are pro Bundy and that's fine, however to claim that the OSP and FBI set out to kill people is ridiculous. No one else was killed. If they had set out to kill people do you honestly think they would've filmed it? Or only killed one person?
The truth is, one person decided to make this a shit sandwich, and that he did.
And I didn't point out "lil" things. I pointed out a rather important case pertaining to case law used when objectively looking at deadly force incidents. Plus Im trying to have a civil discussion, if you have an issue with me, handle it via pms please.
WickedWillis
03-09-16, 16:17
This is a suicide by cop. Dude wanted to die.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-09-16, 17:34
I don't think that video is as definitive evidence as you seem to think it is. More Ghandi than Ghengis Khan. That MSNBC reporter gave him every chance to go full "Wolverines!!" and he didn't take it
Next up that Jesus was suicide by Roman?
Outlander Systems
03-09-16, 17:38
So, just curious, if you roll up on an ambush, and your vehicle is taking incoming fire, please explain to me what would be the proper way to extricate yourself from the situation?
The only person that chose to escalate the situation was the man killed. He refused to comply, fled, and then completed suicide (or martyr) by cop.
https://youtu.be/w2hobECl6b8?t=2m7s
He made it pretty clear he was not going to be taken alive.
I get it, you are pro Bundy and that's fine, however to claim that the OSP and FBI set out to kill people is ridiculous. No one else was killed. If they had set out to kill people do you honestly think they would've filmed it? Or only killed one person?
The truth is, one person decided to make this a shit sandwich, and that he did.
And I didn't point out "lil" things. I pointed out a rather important case pertaining to case law used when objectively looking at deadly force incidents. Plus Im trying to have a civil discussion, if you have an issue with me, handle it via pms please.
WickedWillis
03-09-16, 17:52
I don't think that video is as definitive evidence as you seem to think it is. More Ghandi than Ghengis Khan. That MSNBC reporter gave him every chance to go full "Wolverines!!" and he didn't take it
Next up that Jesus was suicide by Roman?
Dude gets out of his vehicle saying "Shoot me! Shoot me!" Literally. Then when he knows there are guns trained on him, he starts reaching into his jacket, a few days after saying on video he wouldn't be taken alive. He knew exactly what was going to happen. Watch the video that was posted yesterday.
Interesting commentary Dirk Williams, thanks for your input.
Here's the official autopsy: http://media.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/other/2016/03/08/Finicum%20autopsy%20report.pdf
Lots of interesting links in this write up: http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2016/03/finicums-wake.html
Outlander Systems
03-09-16, 18:17
Nice. Slimey from bottom to top.
Pretty hard to rout out corruption when it's systemic.
My faith went down the swirly once I found out there was a conspiracy by the Agents to omit the fact that rounds had been discharged. That fact alone, negates all the, "justified" this and, "use of force" that.
Honest, virtuous men do not need to bend the rules to cover up their actions.
The truth, ****ing simply, has an air about it.
Interesting commentary Dirk Williams, thanks for your input.
Here's the official autopsy: http://media.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/other/2016/03/08/Finicum%20autopsy%20report.pdf
Lots of interesting links in this write up: http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2016/03/finicums-wake.html
So, just curious, if you roll up on an ambush, and your vehicle is taking incoming fire, please explain to me what would be the proper way to extricate yourself from the situation?
Proper way to extricate myself from the situation? Not being in a vehicle being driven by a man with a death wish, would be a good start. But if I found myself in a vehicle, driven by a man with a death wish, fleeing from a traffic stop, refusing to comply and shouting "shoot me" I'd probably stay in the vehicle and wait for commands and comply with those commands to T, and pray that the deranged driver didn't get me killed. And then I'd live, just like every other occupant in the vehicle.....besides the dude with a death wish.
Or you know, just get out of the vehicle during the initial traffic stop, like I was told to do...
This really isn't a complicated situation.
Outlander Systems
03-09-16, 18:26
So, just so I understand, failure to obey a lawful order, and evading arrest are now capital offenses?
I don't know about Oregon, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of LE here in "The A" that actually break a sweat taking down suspects, and don't execute a felony stop by, I don't know, say opening fire on a vehicle.
But it's cool. I guess we'll simply agree to have a different perspective on this.
Proper way to extricate myself from the situation? Not being in a vehicle being driven by a man with a death wish, would be a good start. But if I found myself in a vehicle, driven by a man with a death wish, fleeing from a traffic stop, refusing to comply and shouting "shoot me" I'd probably stay in the vehicle and wait for commands and comply with those commands to T, and pray that the deranged driver didn't get me killed. And then I'd live, just like every other occupant in the vehicle.....besides the dude with a death wish.
Or you know, just get out of the vehicle during the initial traffic stop, like I was told to do...
This really isn't a complicated situation.
FlyingHunter
03-09-16, 18:43
Like this?
Eight Los Angeles police officers who mistakenly opened fire on Los Angeles Times newspaper delivery women thinking they were rogue ex-cop Christopher Dorner in 2013 will not be criminally charged, the L.A. County district attorney’s office announced Wednesday.
The officers opened fire in the predawn hours of Feb. 7, 2013, as Margie Carranza and her mother, Emma Hernandez, were slowly cruising though a Torrance neighborhood in a pickup truck delivering papers.
Look at the truck...amazing they lived: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-no-charges-lapd-shooting-newspaper-delivery-women-dorner-manhunt-20160127-story.html
Light 'em up...we don't need to worry about a thing.
So, just so I understand, failure to obey a lawful order, and evading arrest are now capital offenses?
I don't know about Oregon, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of LE here in "The A" that actually break a sweat taking down suspects, and don't execute a felony stop by, I don't know, say opening fire on a vehicle.
But it's cool. I guess we'll simply agree to have a different perspective on this.
Depending on the larger context, possibly.
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Outlander Systems
03-09-16, 18:49
Laws only apply to you serfs.
Like this?
Eight Los Angeles police officers who mistakenly opened fire on Los Angeles Times newspaper delivery women thinking they were rogue ex-cop Christopher Dorner in 2013 will not be criminally charged, the L.A. County district attorney’s office announced Wednesday.
The officers opened fire in the predawn hours of Feb. 7, 2013, as Margie Carranza and her mother, Emma Hernandez, were slowly cruising though a Torrance neighborhood in a pickup truck delivering papers.
Look at the truck...amazing they lived: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-no-charges-lapd-shooting-newspaper-delivery-women-dorner-manhunt-20160127-story.html
Light 'em up...we don't need to worry about a thing.
FlyingHunter
03-09-16, 18:56
In the case of the truck I referenced above...they only fired 107 rds before checking to see if it was someone they were supposed to be shooting.
In the case of Lavoy, they knew who they were shooting.
Outlander Systems
03-09-16, 19:03
If you are that non-discerning, with a level of professionalism and discipline that poor; straight up, Law Enforcement ain't the right career path for you.
That's pretty stunning.
In the case of the truck I referenced above...they only fired 107 rds before checking to see if it was someone they were supposed to be shooting.
In the case of Lavoy, they knew who they were shooting.
So, just so I understand, failure to obey a lawful order, and evading arrest are now capital offenses?.
No, and I never said it was. I get that you're trying to twist my response, it's cute.
You asked what someone should do in your hypothetical situation, I answered your question. Never once in my response did I say any crime was a capital offense. Sorry if you misunderstood my response.
Its simple, don't elude, don't ask people to shoot you and reach for a gun. Because the only person that died...did! Weird.
FlyingHunter
03-09-16, 19:10
I'm thinking the shot count will drop to one once they start using this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcEoRae6Yog
Outlander Systems
03-09-16, 19:27
Not trying to bend your intent. My point is simply, that, opening fire on a vehicle is a positively poor way for a professional to comport oneself. It's also not a good way to deescalate a situation.
Fleeing from a traffic stop isn't exactly a path to deescalation either, but the use of force in this situation, from what I've seen from the videos, was disproportionate to the crimes committed.
The LE element, in this situation, has lost the moral high ground. My original assessment, and opinion, from the original aerial footage, was that it was unfortunate Mr. Finicum was killed, but that his behavior led him to that outcome. After reviewing the newly released footage, coupled with the conspiracy on the part of the Special Agents, leads me to the conclusion that there was either incompetence, or malice, on the part of the actors tasked with seeing this through to a positive, peaceful resolution.
If police work in this country has descended to the point where our highest LE agency lowers itself to behavior more fitting of amateurs and criminals, including false statements, and tampering with evidence, we're in a bad, bad ****ing place.
The Bureau was the last Federal Agenncy that I had admiration for, and I sincerely mean that. Seeing this situation for what it is, is disheartening.
It is unfortunate that Mr. Finicum was killed. It's equally unfortunate that those who are supposed to be the premier LE Agency on the planet behave like criminals.
Lord knows if I were to give false statements, or to conspire with my cohorts regarding a shooting, I'd be looking at time in the slammer.
The entire situation is terribly disappointing.
No, and I never said it was. I get that you're trying to twist my response, it's cute.
You ask what someone should do in your hypothetical situation, I answered your question. Never once in my response did I say any crime was a capital offense. Sorry if you misunderstood my response.
And the vaulted Duty, Honor, Integrity, FBI caught in a lie is called a tell
even by us non LE people.
This was the HRT, best of the best sterling indicators of the Just Us Dept.
Conversely, the same question can be asked:
How do you stop a speeding vehicle (read: multi-thousand pound moving weapon) whose occupants are refusing to comply WITHOUT resorting to potentially lethal force?
From my experiences...pen flares and shout-show-shove only gets you so far.
Not trying to bend your intent. My point is simply, that, opening fire on a vehicle is a positively poor way for a professional to comport oneself. It's also not a good way to deescalate a situation.
Fleeing from a traffic stop isn't exactly a path to deescalation either, but the use of force in this situation, from what I've seen from the videos, was disproportionate to the crimes committed.
It was a good shoot. If a man that has a history of committing felonies (that he was going to be arrested for), fails to comply, is known to be armed, and openly says "you will not take me alive", the yells "shoot me" while reaching towards an area where he is known to carry a firearm, deadly force is reasonable. And it was determined to be a good shoot.
You can disagree with the tactics all day long, that's what Monday morning quarterbacks do. You would disagree with anything that was done unless it was bend over and cave to these nutcase's demands.
P.S. I would say the FBI is being pretty transparent. They release the information about an agent not being honest, when in reality the agent in question didn't even shoot anyone. One would think if the FBI was evil and looking to kill people (like people have eluded to in this thread) they would've just handled that incident in house and not informed the media...but they didn't.
I think for how completely insane most of the suspects are, it turned out pretty awesome.
The entire situation is terribly disappointing.
That it is, brother.
Transparency goes a long way.
Outlander Systems
03-09-16, 19:42
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/US_Army_spike_strip.jpg
There wasn't an issue with stopping the vehicle. The road block worked perfectly. The issue was the dipshit that got out of the vehicle screaming "SHOOT ME SHOOT ME SHOOT ME"...then reaching for a weapon
I can see OSP's new slogan "OSP :Your wish is our command"....
It was a good shoot. If a man that has a history of committing felonies (that he was going to be arrested for), fails to comply, is known to be armed, and openly says "you will not take me alive", the yells "shoot me" while reaching towards an area where he is known to carry a firearm, deadly force is reasonable. And it was determined to be a good shoot.
You can disagree with the tactics all day long, that's what Monday morning quarterbacks do. You would disagree with anything that was done unless it was bend over and cave to these nutcase's demands.
P.S. I would say the FBI is being pretty transparent. They release the information about an agent not being honest, when in reality the agent in question didn't even shoot anyone. One would think if the FBI was evil and looking to kill people (like people have eluded to in this thread) they would've just handled that incident in house and not informed the media...but they didn't.
I think for how completely insane most of the suspects are, it turned out pretty awesome.
To be fair the Bureau does have their own press office that manages public media affairs and disseminates (i.e. controls) what is released to said media. The folks running it are career public affairs professionals themselves so you could make the argument that their good at framing context how they want.
I still have the utmost respect for the agency, just sucks so much of what they do is politicized one way or another.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Outlander Systems
03-09-16, 19:58
Not going to argue with you. It's obvious we don't see eye-to-eye on it.
There wasn't an issue with stopping the vehicle. The road block worked perfectly. The issue was the dipshit that got out of the vehicle screaming "SHOOT ME SHOOT ME SHOOT ME"...then reaching for a weapon
I can see OSP's new slogan "OSP :Your wish is our command"....
I'm not trained on their use, so I'll let a LEO chime in on how effective spike strips are in reality.
Having had to disable a car (twice) with an M4 on my last deployment, I'll say that when it's happening, you do what you can with what you have. Maybe the OSP guys weren't prepared for them to continue down the road and didn't have time to set up an alternative?
I'm far from an expert on Law Enforcement tactics, but I've shot a few people once or twice and want to reserve my thoughts on good or bad decision making on their part. It never goes how we want it.
I just wish they would have been more transparent in their statements. If it was a good shoot, it won't matter because it will forever be tainted by the lies told by the FBI.
SeriousStudent
03-09-16, 21:32
Gentlemen, I would encourage everyone not to personalize this discussion. Please keep your posts related to facts.
Thanks.
Like this?
Eight Los Angeles police officers who mistakenly opened fire on Los Angeles Times newspaper delivery women thinking they were rogue ex-cop Christopher Dorner in 2013 will not be criminally charged, the L.A. County district attorney’s office announced Wednesday.
The officers opened fire in the predawn hours of Feb. 7, 2013, as Margie Carranza and her mother, Emma Hernandez, were slowly cruising though a Torrance neighborhood in a pickup truck delivering papers.
Look at the truck...amazing they lived: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-no-charges-lapd-shooting-newspaper-delivery-women-dorner-manhunt-20160127-story.html
Light 'em up...we don't need to worry about a thing.
Okay, they haven't been charged, the city paid the ladies a bunch and hopefully the no loads that shot at the vehicle were fired once the proceedings were done, because, I for one, thought that was some fvcked up stuff.
All I care to say is that there are so many less lethal/non-lethal tools out there that some of this stuff could be avoided.
At the end of the day, police work is about life saving. I don't like to second guess shoots because it looks a lot different living it where you can get hurt or killed.
A video camera, while great, only goves a two dimensional view.
Nobody trains enough to try to take people in one piece. There is a lot of good equipment and good techniques out there
That said...when your only tool is a hammer.....
What happened happened. Rightly or wrongly, but I'm thus far very disillusioned with 21st century policework. This incident notwithstanding
ETA as per spike strips, they require a bit of prep and removal. Good radio communication and they'll jack up a car enough to where it is on pure rims. Then the subjects jump out on foot.
I don't know enough about this case to say if it would've altered the outcome. But they can make a car virtually undriveable
ramairthree
03-10-16, 01:07
It is a pretty big deal when a SEAL throws a grenade and lies about it.
Why would a LE officer pump two rounds, lie about it,
And their seems to be an expectation that it is not an issue.
Things may not have gone ideally,
I say let the liar seek employment elsewhere and move on.
Moose-Knuckle
03-10-16, 03:04
As for the traffic stop and road block . . .
Down here TX DPS troopers disable vehicles from aerial platforms with LaRue OBRs in 7.62 NATO, typically reserved for cartel narcos.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1715/25365647310_5c771e30e5_b.jpg
So HRT is on station with pick-ups and a drone and most importantly t i m e?
Outlander Systems
03-10-16, 06:29
This.
Let me clarify, lest there be any confusion, that I wholeheartedly do not, and did not condone the asshattery of occupying the bird sanctuary.
That said, these folks, to the best of my knowledge, hadn't shown themselves to be a threat to anyone. No one had been held at gunpoint; these dudes didn't exactly stack up at the door and take the bird sanctuary by force. I think the biggest crime committed was criminal trespass.
Pretty sure if me and some buddies posted up at a WMA check station, and said, "we're camping here to make a point," Georgia DNR would send a couple of agents out to taze my ballsacks and drag me out by my ears. That said, I highly doubt there would be a SWAT presence, and I further doubt that, should we attempt to say, "screw this noise, we're throwing deuces" the reaction would be to light our asses up.
The concern for me is the political motivations to escalate the shit out of the folks up there camping at the refuge, and save face. The ranchers, the Hammonds, got a raw deal, and everyone from the presiding judge to their Representative were all in agreement there. I won't touch on the corruption rumors, because that's all I know them to be; rumors.
Bottom line, other than saying they would defend themselves if attacked, these dudes were doing a far better job at peaceably assembling/petitioning than some of the other more famous "protests" in recent years.
Bottom line: the fact that ANY rug-sweeping is going on is tremendously suspect. Again, you don't have to cover anything up in a "good shoot." Period.
I just wish they would have been more transparent in their statements. If it was a good shoot, it won't matter because it will forever be tainted by the lies told by the FBI.
I still don't understand why you are some anarchist wanting to take on the govt and you bring two hand guns. Either dress for the party or go unarmed.
He wanted to go out like chow yun fat
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-q7l67pl7XwY/U2y5BqBoxoI/AAAAAAAAGTY/zdsAvkmp5ag/s1600/ABetterTomorrow-1st-03c-400-sg.gif
VooDoo6Actual
03-10-16, 07:09
Just wow.
Keeping away from the typical polemic Amygdala HiJack emotional trap is seems to me there is simple question that should be asked as a metric of truth.
Regardless of the narrative spewed out by LEA's or Media seems there is a really simple question that any decent Attorney can mount. If the shooting was justifiable because of Officer Safety or perceived threat or blah blah blah... Then under what pretenses or context was the UODF justified by shooting at the occupants in the vehicle prior to the driver exiting the vehicle ?
Why was a Phalanx / Arrow Ambush tactic used with a green light UODF prior to the driver exiting vehicle ?
I ask because I used similar ambush tactics in the a War Zone on known AQ terrorist's. Thought we had a different set of rules & metric used in America for American civilians. I used more caution & care regarding my discernment OCONUS in a combat zone than what I saw CONUS.
What I saw was attempted murder of the occupants in the vehicle before the driver ever got out of vehicle.
Outlander Systems
03-10-16, 07:39
This. You have articulated my concerns in a much better fashion.
What was Phalanx / Arrow Ambush tactic used with a green light UODF prior to the driver exiting vehicle ?
I ask because I used similar ambush tactics in the a War Zone on known AQ terrorist's. Thought we had a different set of rules & metric used in America for American civilians. I used more caution & care regarding my discernment OCONUS in a combat zone than what I saw CONUS.
Thought we had a different set of rules & metric used in America for American civilians. .
Please share these rules and metrics used when dealing with armed fleeing felons that are mentally deranged. Educate all of us.
Voodoochild
03-10-16, 08:31
Dirk Williams you were asked to take your issues to PM with JDUB. I suggest you do it or you won't be posting here for long.
ramairthree
03-10-16, 10:51
Please share these rules and metrics used when dealing with armed fleeing felons that are mentally deranged. Educate all of us.
Here is some education.
We will let large groups of people break and enter, rob, loot, arson, etc. actively comment millions of dollars worth of property crimes and violent acts and not intervene.
Yet they would not let a truck of guys drive away.
Prior to the road block,
What Arsons, assaults, etc. had they committed?
Anyways,
Let's get past that.
A guy pumped lead in the vehicle.
If everything was good to go,
Why did he lie about it?
There mere fact they lied about it is a head scratcher.
If you did something totally on the up and up,
Why would you lie about it?
Ok.
Let's get past that.
Let's say everything was A Ok.
Let's move past the incident.
We still have an agent that lied about firing.
Why do you not feel that is not a big deal/firing level offense?
But I don't take pulling the trigger and lying about it lightly.
No well trained guy engages and forgets about it.
Please explicitly state your opinion on engaging a target and lying about it.
WickedWillis
03-10-16, 10:52
Once again, if this was a black youth or black lives matter incident we'd all be sitting here making fun of his parents saying "He didn't do nuffin wrong". But the fact that this guy claims to be a patriot, and a 2A supporter, we completely flip sides and ignore what the video shows. If the cell phone video isn't proof enough for you that this is one of the most blatant suicide by Cop runs caught on tape, I don't know what to tell you. You just want there to be a murder conspiracy too much.
The sound in the cell phone video, and the video played right next to it confirm that he wasn't shot until reaching towards his side. He was shot at leaving the truck, then they held fire until he began reaching for things. The flashbangs and pepper-rounds being shot at the truck, I don't know what to say about those. Other than they probably assumed armed and hostile passengers and were trying to subdue them. Still not sure how I feel about that one.
ramairthree
03-10-16, 11:25
I am not ignoring those points.
I am questioning why lie about shooting.
I am not ignoring those points.
I am questioning why lie about shooting.
Probably because he knew in hindsight he either shouldn't have shot, or didn't mean to. Either way, as I stated pages earlier, the liar needs to be dealt with per their protocol (at most agencies that would be termination). I'm not getting hung up on that issue like most because A. The FBI released the info and are dealing with it appropriately B. Its been confirmed that those two shots did not kill or hit anyone involved (thankfully).
So if you want to claim some crazy conspiracy because one guy f*ked up, and lied about it. Go for it if that's your prerogative. I however can look at the entire situation objectively and can see that what was done was reasonable.
I wish that LaVoy the loon didn't put himself, his family, and those officers in that position. But he did, and the rest is history. I'm glad it was determined to be a good shoot, and the State officers involved can move on with their life and career. For the agent that lied, well he messed up, and f*cked up by lying about it, he should be dealt with per FBI policy.
I have no issues with how they handled the situation after the shooting, they took everyone (including an armed suspect) into custody without further bloodshed, but feel free to Monday morning qb it.
Also, this isn't Ferguson, and its not Baltimore, its not civil unrest, it was an armed take over and occupation. I would venture to say what occurred in Oregon was handled much better than either of those completely different incidents.
VooDoo6Actual
03-10-16, 14:24
Thus Spoke Zarathustra / The New Idol
The New Idol
Somewhere there are still peoples and herds, but not with us, my brethren: here there are states.
A state? What is that? Well! open now your ears unto me, for now will I say unto you my word concerning the death of peoples.
A state, is called the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly lieth it also; and this lie creepeth from its mouth: "I, the state, am the people."
It is a lie! Creators were they who created peoples, and hung a faith and a love over them: thus they served life.
Destroyers, are they who lay snares for many, and call it the state: they hang a sword and a hundred cravings over them.
Where there is still a people, there the state is not understood, but hated as the evil eye, and as sin against laws and customs.
This sign I give unto you: every people speaketh its language of good and evil: this its neighbour understandeth not. Its language hath it devised for itself in laws and customs.
But the state lieth in all languages of good and evil; and whatever it saith it lieth; and whatever it hath it hath stolen.
False is everything in it; with stolen teeth it biteth, the biting one. False are even its bowels.
Confusion of language of good and evil; this sign I give unto you as the sign of the state. Verily, the will to death, indicateth this sign! Verily, it beckoneth unto the preachers of death!
Many too many are born: for the superfluous ones was the state devised!
See just how it enticeth them to it, the many-too-many! How it swalloweth and cheweth and recheweth them!
"On earth there is nothing greater than I: it is I who am the regulating finger of God."—thus roareth the monster. And not only the long-eared and short-sighted fall upon their knees!
Ah! even in your ears, ye great souls, it whispereth its gloomy lies! Ah! it findeth out the rich hearts which willingly lavish themselves!
Yea, it findeth you out too, ye conquerors of the old God! Weary ye became of the conflict, and now your weariness serveth the new idol!
Heroes and honourable ones, it would fain set up around it, the new idol! Gladly it basketh in the sunshine of good consciences,- the cold monster!
Everything will it give you, if ye worship it, the new idol: thus it purchaseth the lustre of your virtue, and the glance of your proud eyes.
It seeketh to allure by means of you, the many-too-many! Yea, a hellish artifice hath here been devised, a death-horse jingling with the trappings of divine honours!
Yea, a dying for many hath here been devised, which glorifieth itself as life: verily, a hearty service unto all preachers of death!
The state, I call it, where all are poison-drinkers, the good and the bad: the state, where all lose themselves, the good and the bad: the state, where the slow suicide of all—is called "life."
Just see these superfluous ones! They steal the works of the inventors and the treasures of the wise. Culture, they call their theft—and everything becometh sickness and trouble unto them!
Just see these superfluous ones! Sick are they always; they vomit their bile and call it a newspaper. They devour one another, and cannot even digest themselves.
Just see these superfluous ones! Wealth they acquire and become poorer thereby. Power they seek for, and above all, the lever of power, much money—these impotent ones!
See them clamber, these nimble apes! They clamber over one another, and thus scuffle into the mud and the abyss.
Towards the throne they all strive: it is their madness—as if happiness sat on the throne! Ofttimes sitteth filth on the throne.- and ofttimes also the throne on filth.
Madmen they all seem to me, and clambering apes, and too eager. Badly smelleth their idol to me, the cold monster: badly they all smell to me, these idolaters.
My brethren, will ye suffocate in the fumes of their maws and appetites! Better break the windows and jump into the open air!
Do go out of the way of the bad odour! Withdraw from the idolatry of the superfluous!
Do go out of the way of the bad odour! Withdraw from the steam of these human sacrifices!
Open still remaineth the earth for great souls. Empty are still many sites for lone ones and twain ones, around which floateth the odour of tranquil seas.
Open still remaineth a free life for great souls. Verily, he who possesseth little is so much the less possessed: blessed be moderate poverty!
There, where the state ceaseth—there only commenceth the man who is not superfluous: there commenceth the song of the necessary ones, the single and irreplaceable melody.
There, where the state ceaseth—pray look thither, my brethren!
Do ye not see it, the rainbow and the bridges of the Superman?—
Thus spake Zarathustra.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Thus Spoke Zarathustra / The New Idol
The New Idol
Somewhere there are still peoples and herds, but not with us, my brethren: here there are states.
A state? What is that? Well! open now your ears unto me, for now will I say unto you my word concerning the death of peoples.
A state, is called the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly lieth it also; and this lie creepeth from its mouth: "I, the state, am the people."
It is a lie! Creators were they who created peoples, and hung a faith and a love over them: thus they served life.
Destroyers, are they who lay snares for many, and call it the state: they hang a sword and a hundred cravings over them.
Where there is still a people, there the state is not understood, but hated as the evil eye, and as sin against laws and customs.
This sign I give unto you: every people speaketh its language of good and evil: this its neighbour understandeth not. Its language hath it devised for itself in laws and customs.
But the state lieth in all languages of good and evil; and whatever it saith it lieth; and whatever it hath it hath stolen.
False is everything in it; with stolen teeth it biteth, the biting one. False are even its bowels.
Confusion of language of good and evil; this sign I give unto you as the sign of the state. Verily, the will to death, indicateth this sign! Verily, it beckoneth unto the preachers of death!
Many too many are born: for the superfluous ones was the state devised!
See just how it enticeth them to it, the many-too-many! How it swalloweth and cheweth and recheweth them!
"On earth there is nothing greater than I: it is I who am the regulating finger of God."—thus roareth the monster. And not only the long-eared and short-sighted fall upon their knees!
Ah! even in your ears, ye great souls, it whispereth its gloomy lies! Ah! it findeth out the rich hearts which willingly lavish themselves!
Yea, it findeth you out too, ye conquerors of the old God! Weary ye became of the conflict, and now your weariness serveth the new idol!
Heroes and honourable ones, it would fain set up around it, the new idol! Gladly it basketh in the sunshine of good consciences,- the cold monster!
Everything will it give you, if ye worship it, the new idol: thus it purchaseth the lustre of your virtue, and the glance of your proud eyes.
It seeketh to allure by means of you, the many-too-many! Yea, a hellish artifice hath here been devised, a death-horse jingling with the trappings of divine honours!
Yea, a dying for many hath here been devised, which glorifieth itself as life: verily, a hearty service unto all preachers of death!
The state, I call it, where all are poison-drinkers, the good and the bad: the state, where all lose themselves, the good and the bad: the state, where the slow suicide of all—is called "life."
Just see these superfluous ones! They steal the works of the inventors and the treasures of the wise. Culture, they call their theft—and everything becometh sickness and trouble unto them!
Just see these superfluous ones! Sick are they always; they vomit their bile and call it a newspaper. They devour one another, and cannot even digest themselves.
Just see these superfluous ones! Wealth they acquire and become poorer thereby. Power they seek for, and above all, the lever of power, much money—these impotent ones!
See them clamber, these nimble apes! They clamber over one another, and thus scuffle into the mud and the abyss.
Towards the throne they all strive: it is their madness—as if happiness sat on the throne! Ofttimes sitteth filth on the throne.- and ofttimes also the throne on filth.
Madmen they all seem to me, and clambering apes, and too eager. Badly smelleth their idol to me, the cold monster: badly they all smell to me, these idolaters.
My brethren, will ye suffocate in the fumes of their maws and appetites! Better break the windows and jump into the open air!
Do go out of the way of the bad odour! Withdraw from the idolatry of the superfluous!
Do go out of the way of the bad odour! Withdraw from the steam of these human sacrifices!
Open still remaineth the earth for great souls. Empty are still many sites for lone ones and twain ones, around which floateth the odour of tranquil seas.
Open still remaineth a free life for great souls. Verily, he who possesseth little is so much the less possessed: blessed be moderate poverty!
There, where the state ceaseth—there only commenceth the man who is not superfluous: there commenceth the song of the necessary ones, the single and irreplaceable melody.
There, where the state ceaseth—pray look thither, my brethren!
Do ye not see it, the rainbow and the bridges of the Superman?—
Thus spake Zarathustra.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Insightful.....rules and metrics I've never heard of.
Whiskey_Bravo
03-10-16, 15:17
There wasn't an issue with stopping the vehicle. The road block worked perfectly. The issue was the dipshit that got out of the vehicle screaming "SHOOT ME SHOOT ME SHOOT ME"...then reaching for a weapon
I can see OSP's new slogan "OSP :Your wish is our command"....
If they really wanted the road block to work "perfectly" it would not have been set up where it was and you know that. That location almost guaranteed that the suspect vehicle would have a hard time stopping in time, which I assume was their plan given the location.
But I am pretty sure we have been down this road before discussing this.
Whiskey_Bravo
03-10-16, 15:17
Been a member for awhile,
...
Respectfully
Dirk Williams
Thanks for the post.
Why would a LE officer pump two rounds, lie about it,
I say let the liar seek employment elsewhere and move on.
My take, agencies tend to eat their own instead on forgiving mistakes. Initially the agent may have thought, 'oops, I screwed the pooch on that one, thank goodness no one was hurt, won't happen again' - I think that is conceivable to most of us. The agent then confides to a couple of his pals what happened, they agree he shouldn't have shot but, so to speak, no harm, no foul.
Then the two shots are 'discovered' - the investigators ask if anyone knows about it - unfortunately the agents whom the shooter confided in close ranks and say nope. So what is the shooter to do - dime himself and them out?
It doesn't go away, so the shooter fesses up.
Could it have happened pretty much like this? Yes. Is it the way things should be - ABSOLUTELY NOT- shooter needs to go someplace to work, other agents need their hands slapped and reassigned.
As for the traffic stop and road block . . .
Down here TX DPS troopers disable vehicles from aerial platforms with LaRue OBRs in 7.62 NATO, typically reserved for cartel narcos.
Apparently not very proficiently:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/11/miguel-avila-trooper-cleared-fatal-shooting-helicopter_n_3905650.html
Cleared doesn't mean good.
VooDoo6Actual
03-10-16, 15:51
Insightful.....rules and metrics I've never heard of.
Remember who you serve & why you serve.
Here's a clue. The "cold monster" likes to cloud your discernment in asymmetrical nonlinear dispersed warfare.
FWIW, Machiavellian warfare principles usually don't end in a harmonious warm fuzzy manner w/ the populous.
Ask yourself why you used "mentally deranged" when we both know your not qualified to make that professional clinical assessment. I can think of far worst offenders to that charge you so effortlessly indicted Mr. Finicum.
Remember who you serve & why you serve.
Here's a clue. The "cold monster" likes to cloud your discernment in asymmetrical nonlinear dispersed warfare.
Ask yourself why you used "mentally deranged" when we both know your not qualified to make that professional clinical assessment. I can think of far worst offenders to that charge you so effortlessly indicted Mr. Finicum.
Because I observed his actions. And I never claimed to be making a "professional clinical assessment" (because lets face it, if we restricted people from passing judgment on things they weren't certified in, half the folks screaming "murder" in regards to this incident would be barred from discussion). I just figured anyone exiting a vehicle after a failed attempt to elude and screaming SHOOT ME! while reaching for a gun is...well....insane. Either that or he was hell bent to become a martyr for a failed and unjust cause.
That's the real sad part the fact that these poor souls were led astray by con men like the Bundy's. Not only will they pay a price, but their families will too...something I wish they would've considered. Although their grandiose delusions probably clouded their judgment. Its sad.
Here's a question.
Did Lavoy Finnicum do anything wrong?
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-10-16, 16:39
\I just figured anyone exiting a vehicle after a failed attempt to elude and screaming SHOOT ME! while reaching for a gun is...well....insane. .
Stop lying about things that I can see with my own eyes.
Look at the video on page 1 and @5:34-36 you can clearly see that he is raising his hands and saying "Go ahead and shoot me".
Notice he is not reaching for a gun and is not saying "I'm going to shoot you".
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-10-16, 16:41
Here's a question.
Did Lavoy Finnicum do anything wrong worth killing him over?
FIFY...
WickedWillis
03-10-16, 16:47
Stop lying about things that I can see with my own eyes.
Look at the video on page 1 and @5:34-36 you can clearly see that he is raising his hands and saying "Go ahead and shoot me".
Notice he is not reaching for a gun and is not saying "I'm going to shoot you".
5:41 reaches into coat, 5:48 is dropped. He got out of the car literally saying "Shoot me" Whether he did with his hands up before he died, we don't know. The only audio at that point from outside is the shots that kill him.
Stop lying about things that I can see with my own eyes.
Look at the video on page 1 and @5:34-36 you can clearly see that he is raising his hands and saying "Go ahead and shoot me".
Notice he is not reaching for a gun and is not saying "I'm going to shoot you".
And at 5:41 he reaches with his right hand towards his left side and repeats that motion at 5:44. Right where his shoulder holster was located.
Here's a question.
Did Lavoy Finnicum do anything wrong?
How about this question-
Did the LEO's do anything wrong?
Like setting up a road block on a blind curve causing the situation to be escalated needlessly?
Like firing into the cab of the vehicle as it went out of control into the snow bank trying to miss hitting the road block head-on?
Like Firing at Lavoy/cab of vehicle as he exited the vehicle prior to making any move towards his guns?
Like lying about firing into the cab prior to him exiting the vehicle?
There was a lot of "Wrong" goins on from both sides in this situation.
If the road block had been placed on a straight away- I believe this all would have ended differently- WE WILL NEVER KNOW though because they decided to put it on a blind curve and things went sideways.
Shots were fired with the possibility of killing Lavoy and company PRIOR to Lavoy exiting the vehicle and reaching for his gun.
How about this question-
Did the LEO's do anything wrong?
Like setting up a road block on a blind curve causing the situation to be escalated needlessly?
Like firing into the cab of the vehicle as it went out of control into the snow bank trying to miss hitting the road block head-on?
Like Firing at Lavoy/cab of vehicle as he exited the vehicle prior to making any move towards his guns?
Like lying about firing into the cab prior to him exiting the vehicle?
There was a lot of "Wrong" goins on from both sides in this situation.
If the road block had been placed on a straight away- I believe this all would have ended differently- WE WILL NEVER KNOW though because they decided to put it on a blind curve and things went sideways.
No the constitutional lawyers have spoken, it was a murder plot from the beginning.
I want to know if those same folks think Lavoy did anything wrong. Anything at all???? That will tell us everything we need to know.
No the constitutional lawyers have spoken, it was a murder plot from the beginning.
I want to know if those same folks think Lavoy did anything wrong
Lets discuss rationally instead of being so dramatic please.
The fact is these LEO's fired shots prior to him exiting the vehicle and prior to him reaching for a gun- those rounds DIDN'T kill Lavoy, but very well could have- do you believe this was justified?
The road block, being placed in the fashion that it was was a direct factor in the escalation and outcome of this situation. Do you believe this was a good plan and set up for the road block?
I'm not defending Lavoy, I'm discussing how shit went down.
WickedWillis
03-10-16, 16:56
Lets discuss rationally instead of being so dramatic please.
The fact is these LEO's fired shots prior to him exiting the vehicle and prior to him reaching for a gun- those rounds DIDN'T kill Lavoy, but very well could have- do you believe this was justified?
The road block, being placed in the fashion that it was was a direct factor in the escalation and outcome of this situation. Do you believe this was a good plan and set up for the road block?
I'm not defending Lavoy, I'm discussing how shit went down.
This was the biggest thing I had a problem with. While approaching the roadblock, then the doubletap at the back window as he is exiting the truck. Those in my opinion were not necessary.
The road block, being placed in the fashion that it was was a direct factor in the escalation and outcome of this situation. .
The deciding factor in escalation? Are you forgetting that an attempt to apprehend these criminals was made but the criminals chose to flee? I would say the criminals escalated the situation, since (you could have forgotten) there was ANOTHER vehicle that was stopped that didn't flee...and all those people were taken into custody without a shot being fired.
So really, who decided to escalate the situation?
I would still like to hear if anyone thinks Mr. Finnicum did anything wrong.
Outlander Systems
03-10-16, 17:01
Clarification:
Are they criminals, or insane?
That will play a large part in the trial.
The deciding factor in escalation? Are you forgetting that an attempt to apprehend these criminals was made but the criminals chose to flee? I would say the criminals escalated the situation, since (you could have forgotten) there was ANOTHER vehicle that was stopped that didn't flee...and all those people were taken into custody without a shot being fired.
So really, who decided to escalate the situation?
The deciding factor in escalation? Are you forgetting that an attempt to apprehend these criminals was made but the criminals chose to flee? I would say the criminals escalated the situation, since (you could have forgotten) there was ANOTHER vehicle that was stopped that didn't flee...and all those people were taken into custody without a shot being fired.
So really, who decided to escalate the situation?
I do see and understand this point. But given that the LEO's literally KNEW he had ssaid he wouldn't be taken into custody and the likely hood of Lavoy not cooperating, shouldn't there have been better planning given the intel?
Lavoy escalated the situation by fleeing, the ill-placed road block further escalated the situation, the shots fired into the cab further escalated the situation; and things ended as they did due to escalations on both sides.
Like I said- lots of "wrong" on both sides here.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-10-16, 17:08
Lets discuss rationally instead of being so dramatic please.
The fact is these LEO's fired shots prior to him exiting the vehicle and prior to him reaching for a gun- those rounds DIDN'T kill Lavoy, but very well could have- do you believe this was justified?
.
Yep....
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-10-16, 17:09
I would still like to hear if anyone thinks Mr. Finnicum did anything wrong.
Speeding.
Clarification:
Are they criminals, or insane?
That will play a large part in the trial.
That's a good question. Hard saying, its like the chicken and egg thing.
Speeding.
Exactly my point.
Not being able to objectively asses the entire situation (not just the incident that resulted in Finnicum's death) makes it pretty easy to see why some people think he was murdered.
Outlander Systems
03-10-16, 17:15
Just giving you hell, dude.
; )
That's a good question. Hard saying, its like the chicken and egg thing.
Leaveammoforme
03-10-16, 17:24
Speeding.
I'm pretty sure I saw a Fail to Maintain Lane also.
Outlander Systems
03-10-16, 17:24
And lots of people say, "Molon Labe!!!! ZOMG!!!".
And lots of people in Connecticut lined up to be good little Germans.
The point is, I've met a metric shit ton of folks in my life that didn't say what they mean, or mean what they say.
I mean, these dudes posted up at a remote outpost, with 27 ways in and one way out. I wouldn't exactly put them up there as, "master tacticians."
The response from LE was disproportionate to the threat. If these dudes had gone "San Bernardino", then by all means, rain holy death down on them.
The biggest crime committed was criminal trespass and malicious mischief.
The dickhead militia dudes who refused to leave, and were openly calling for assaulting Federal LE?
Nut sacks, n Tasers.
But, the cowboy posse that showed up, and parked their asses? Don't really see these dudes as anything more than the "lady chained to a tree" types.
I do see and understand this point. But given that the LEO's literally KNEW he had ssaid he wouldn't be taken into custody and the likely hood of Lavoy not cooperating, shouldn't there have been better planning given the intel?
Lavoy escalated the situation by fleeing, the ill-placed road block further escalated the situation, the shots fired into the cab further escalated the situation; and things ended as they did due to escalations on both sides.
Like I said- lots of "wrong" on both sides here.
Admittedly I'm not licensed up in Ory-gun, but the way these things work in most places, regardless of what crimes a person may have committed, if you shoot at somebody who isn't presenting an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury, you are committing a crime called something along the lines of "assault with a dangerous weapon" as well as attempted manslaughter/murder; and the victim is privileged to use reasonable (i.e. deadly) force in self defense.
I'm glad I waited until more facts were available to pass judgment on this one, as I originally leaned toward thinking that the shoot was legally justified, when all we were told/shown was that Finnicum reached for his pocket and was shot. Now that we know that he was fired on before he did any of this, it changes everything.
Admittedly I'm not licensed up in Ory-gun, but the way these things work in most places, regardless of what crimes a person may have committed, if you shoot at somebody who isn't presenting an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury, you are committing a crime called something along the lines of "assault with a dangerous weapon" as well as attempted manslaughter/murder; and the victim is privileged to use reasonable (i.e. deadly) force in self defense.
I'm glad I waited until more facts were available to pass judgment on this one, as I originally leaned toward thinking that the shoot was legally justified, when all we were told/shown was that Finnicum reached for his pocket and was shot. Now that we know that he was fired on before he did any of this, it changes everything.
^This is where I'm at as well.
Lavoy wasn't completely in the right with his actions, but he didn't deserve to be shot at and possibly killed when he didn't present an immediate threat.
As Non-LEO- if I were to just shoot at someone that wasn't presenting an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury and it was caught on tape and I lied about my shots- I'd be burnt toast come the trial...
WickedWillis
03-10-16, 18:06
Ory-gun
Things that make people from there cringe.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-10-16, 18:08
Exactly my point.
Not being able to objectively asses the entire situation (not just the incident that resulted in Finnicum's death) makes it pretty easy to see why some people think he was murdered.
You asked if he did anything wrong, not for an exhaustive list of everything he did wrong.
Ask stupid rhetorical questions, get stupid rhetorical answers.
You say that he was reaching for his gun. It is far more likely that he was pointing at himself, just as he does at the start of the clip on page one. It is interesting that he never verbally threatens the LEOs. He says shoot me, not that he is going to shoot. At the start of the recording he says that they better back down, or 'my blood will be on the street'.
You asked if he did anything wrong, not for an exhaustive list of everything he did wrong.
Ask stupid rhetorical questions, get stupid rhetorical answers.
You say that he was reaching for his gun. It is far more likely that he was pointing at himself, just as he does at the start of the clip on page one. It is interesting that he never verbally threatens the LEOs. He says shoot me, not that he is going to shoot. At the start of the recording he says that they better back down, or 'my blood will be on the street'.
Cool. You say he wasn't a threat. Its far more likely he was.
Either way, I hope the FBI takes care of things on their end. And the Bundy's and their goons are put in prison for a long time.
Moose-Knuckle
03-11-16, 02:20
Apparently not very proficiently:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/11/miguel-avila-trooper-cleared-fatal-shooting-helicopter_n_3905650.html
Cleared doesn't mean good.
That is one out of I don't even know how many.
Point being, FBI HRT cross trains with JSOC elements. Their take down/road block of these ranchers/militia was not executed well. It's not like the FBI didn't have time on their side to plan/stage/prepare a more efficient take down.
Moose-Knuckle
03-11-16, 02:26
Did Lavoy Finnicum do anything wrong?
Well come to think of it he did cross that double yellow line a time or two . . .
Things that make people from there cringe.
Folks from OK are still a little chapped over the on-side kick a few years back, so....
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Moose-Knuckle
03-11-16, 03:26
Folks from OK are still a little chapped over the on-side kick a few years back, so....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
McVeigh was a FBI PATCON construct. DOJ still has not released over 500 hours of CCTV footage from OKC.
And IIRC some the "militia" members in OR were FBI.
Folks from OK are still a little chapped over the on-side kick a few years back, so....
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Lol... that was some bullshit though!
And IIRC some the "militia" members in OR were FBI.
It wouldn't take much of an acting job, some carhartt, a little tapco, and rambling incoherently about misinterpretations of the constitution and you're in. I just wish they would've visined the coffee (French vanilla flavored of course) and got this over with in the first week.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-11-16, 08:50
It wouldn't take much of an acting job, some carhartt, a little tapco, and rambling incoherently about misinterpretations of the constitution and you're in. I just wish they would've visined the coffee (French vanilla flavored of course) and got this over with in the first week.
Sounds like they did 'Visene' the drinks. Some of them are being charged with desecrating Indian Holy Land- by digging latrine ditches?
Sounds like they did 'Visene' the drinks. Some of them are being charged with desecrating Indian Holy Land- by digging latrine ditches?
Yes, like many at the refuge, Sean Anderson was smart enough to video tape himself and others destroying property (and making outlandish and volatile statements)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKetJB4W00M
Im sure many here, possibly in this thread, agree with his sentiments; however I doubt it will do him any good in the court of law.
LEO interviews and official reports: http://www.bluemountaineagle.com/assets/pdf/Finicum_Redacted_Web_3102016.pdf
The FBI released the info and are dealing with it appropriately
News has the State doing the investigation and turning over evidence of the lie to the DOJ. You make it sound like they self reported...
So if you want to claim some crazy conspiracy because one guy f*ked up, and lied about it. Go for it if that's your prerogative.
FIVE agents under investigation. FIVE. So it IS a conspiracy unless four of them get cleared. Makes the difference between crazy and plausible shrink a bit, because last week five FBI agents lying about a shooting was just crazy talk.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-12-16, 01:44
LEO interviews and official reports: http://www.bluemountaineagle.com/assets/pdf/Finicum_Redacted_Web_3102016.pdf
I've gotten thru the first two officers interview. Because of how they had the ambush set up, officer number one lit them up as they came around the curve. #1 also is the first officer to shoot and victim and Finnicum has his back to him at that time. #1, thinking Finicum has already run over an OSP officer, perceives that Finicum is reaching for a gun and double taps him. The other officer says that he was preparing to shoot, but #1 beat him to it.
I don't see an interview for #3, which Finicum was facing?
So he was shot by two officers in the back as he was facing away from them?
Worst road block set up ever? Did Sean Bean set it up?
If a HRT guy let some rounds loose, are those not accounted for by any accounts by the OSP guys? If a HRT guy shoots in the woods, I guess it doesn't make a sound?
Moose-Knuckle
03-12-16, 03:03
Worst road block set up ever? Did Sean Bean set it up?
"Tell me about an ambush? TELL ME ABOUT AN AMBUSH?! I ambushed you with a cup of coffee."
News has the State doing the investigation and turning over evidence of the lie to the DOJ. You make it sound like they self reported...
FIVE agents under investigation. FIVE. So it IS a conspiracy unless four of them get cleared. Makes the difference between crazy and plausible shrink a bit, because last week five FBI agents lying about a shooting was just crazy talk.
Do not discuss the facts. Make your own narrative and use emotional hyperbole to muddy the waters.
News has the State doing the investigation and turning over evidence of the lie to the DOJ. You make it sound like they self reported...
FIVE agents under investigation. FIVE. So it IS a conspiracy unless four of them get cleared. Makes the difference between crazy and plausible shrink a bit, because last week five FBI agents lying about a shooting was just crazy talk.
You're right. I am sorry, the conspiracy is getting ripped wide open. It was a setup, they intended to kill only one out of two truck loads of people who chose to take up arms against their country. Their plan was not to kill the leader of the entire operation, but to kill some guy that showed up from Arizona complaining about not being able to graze "his" BLM pastures to bare dirt.
We've already established the victim of this "murder" did absolutely nothing wrong, and nothing that could be perceived as threatening. Its obvious the entire system is against these poor "ranchers" and it was a setup from the get go, heck the FBI probably invited them to OR in the first place!!!!
I've seen the light, reflecting off my tinfoil hat, and I concede I couldn't see past my own logical mind for too long..
It mustve been a setup, murder, and the masons were involved too!!!
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-12-16, 09:54
Your reductio ad absurdum arguement refusing to engage on the serious problems with this shoot. From poor planning and execution, a fundamental misunderstanding of Finicum's intent and officer number #1s shoot-first policy this was destined to end badly.
Execute a felony stop, lots of thought went into that idea.
A roadblock and spike strips set up whose only outcome could be shoots fired.
Finicum state of mind was either let me go or shoot me. At no time does he ever say 'l'll shoot you'. His 'reaching for his gun' is more than likely his pointing to his chest telling them to shoot him.
#3 never employing his taser?
#1 lights up the truck as it comes around the corner, thinks erroneously that Finicum has run over another officer, and then double taps him him in the back.
The second officer that shot did it because #1 shot. He says that isn't why he shot, but by now we know that #1 shooting is not totally Kosher, so saying that he engaged just because #1 was shooting presents a problem.
When did the HRT guy shoot and are those shots reflected in any of the OSP reports?
Am I correct in that officer #3s report isn't in that Pdf? Has it been released?
Finicum was a complete douche bag and idiot. But He saw himself as a martyr, not a murderer. I'm sure the shooters thought he was or have convinced themselves by now that he was a threat- but that happened because of their crappy plan, poor execution and misunderstanding of Finicum.
Finicum was a complete douche bag and idiot. But He saw himself as a martyr, not a murderer. I'm sure the shooters thought he was or have convinced themselves by now that he was a threat- but that happened because of their crappy plan, poor execution and misunderstanding of Finicum.
No way, he was a patriot, that didn't do nuffins. It was a premeditated murda, obviously.
P.s. keep in mind that usually deadly force incidents aren't judged by hindsight. The situation was tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving. It may have ended up as a turd sandwich, but as with many different type of incidents sometimes you can't control other people's actions. But hey Dat cra cra talk.
Also at 5:41 and 5:44 he makes movements that could easily be perceived to be going for a gun.
I'm just glad yall qaeda and the sage brush rebellion 3.0 is gone for now.
SeriousStudent
03-12-16, 12:32
Discuss the case in a calm matter, and stop with the silly bullshit. There have been multiple warnings in this thread already from multiple mods, nobody gets a free pass from now on.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-12-16, 12:47
No way, he was a patriot, that didn't do nuffins. It was a premeditated murda, obviously.
P.s. keep in mind that usually deadly force incidents aren't judged by hindsight. The situation was tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving. It may have ended up as a turd sandwich, but as with many different type of incidents sometimes you can't control other people's actions. But hey Dat cra cra talk.
I don't disagree what you say here. I'm in the camp of complete lack of professionalism and skill on the part of the LEOs. Murder, no. The shooting was inevitable when you get Finicum's and Officers #1's mindset intersecting with a bad plan. Add in the HRT team throwing noise into the equation and Mrs. Finicum will be a wealthy woman and we have another Ruby Ridge for another generation.
keep in mind that usually deadly force incidents aren't judged by hindsight. The situation was tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving. It may have ended up as a turd sandwich, but as with many different type of incidents sometimes you can't control other people's actions.
Given the situation the officers had in front of them I don't think it was going to end without Finicum shot. His plan was to keep pushing until he got shot. It's not even worth arguing about the final shooting.
But maybe you should direct more of you scorn on the FBI for making the sandwich to begin with, then battering and deep frying it (with the cover up) for the Troopers who ended up having to eat it.
People are bringing up serious tactical questions and the FBI made all those calls. After five FBI agents try to cover up a shooting is it that hard to see why some question the intent of every decision made?
Can't control other people's actions? Who picked the location of the roadblock? Why did they pick it?
If I have the facts straight this:
The second officer that shot did it because #1 shot. He says that isn't why he shot, but by now we know that #1 shooting is not totally Kosher, so saying that he engaged just because #1 was shooting presents a problem.
Is one of those reductio ad absurdum arguments you referencing.
The second officer:
'I had information that various individuals were known to have firearms, known to carry them. I had also seen numerous videos online and read articles on the various individuals just trying to keep myself refreshed and up to date with what was going on.'
'In particular, I had watched videos with Ammon Bundy and Mr. Finicum, and in particular Mr. Finicum. I had seen videos in which he stated he wasn't going to go to prison, and didn't plan on being taken alive.'
At the first stop from which Finicum fled:
''Officer No. 4 is continuing to give verbal commands...'this is the police you are under arrest'....during one of those repetitions, I heard Finicum say, 'Who are you?' Officer No. 4 said, 'We are the state police. You are under arrest, and you need to come out of your vehicle with your hands up. Turn your vehicle off.' He (Finicum) said, 'I'm not going to turn my vehicle off. You are going to have to shoot me.'
At that point Finicum fled. The Officer No. 2 followed as was planned. at the roadblock:
'As we came around the corner and saw the roadblock, I observed the white truck swerve to the left, it didn't appear to slow at all. I had time to slow down and stop, and, in fact, the white truck appeared to rapidly accelerate away from us and maintain that speed throughout until it got to the roadblock.'
'As I'm pulling up, I see Mr. Finicum exit out the driver's door and run through the snow. Initially he had his hands kind of up to his side, about shoulder height, and I'm still rolling up as I see him, the first time, take his right hand and dig it inside his jacket pocket as if he were reaching for something, and based on my training and experience, and having been in very similar situations numerous times, it appeared to me he was reaching for a handgun. I also something in his waistband that I couldn't identify at that distance, and although I had seen videos before on YouTube of him having a knife in that he carried in the front of his belt. But, it didn't look like he was reaching for that. It looked like he was digging deeper and reaching for, in my mind a shoulder holster.'
At that point the officer orders officer no. 4 to stop the truck and he exits:
I could see that 'officer no. 3 had moved in a little bit, and I kind of moved in between them, although I was still back up on the road....I knew from previous briefings that officer no. 3 was the less-lethal....I knew he only had a pistol and he was only, in my mind 10 to 15 feet from Mr. Finicum.'
'As I stepped up and was moving, I saw Mr. Finicum turn his back towards me and officer no. 1, (me - apparently oriented towards officer no. 3) and then I saw his right arm again dig deeply in towards what I would term as maybe a shoulder holster or something in that vicinity, and he seemed to struggle for just a second. And I'm pulling my scope up as this is occurring. I was pulling my weapon up to my shoulder as I'm moving, and trying to take in were officer no. 1 and no. 3 are. And just as soon as I put the crosshairs on Mr. Finicum's back, Officer No. 1 fired.......and as soon as he fired and my scope just came up and was right in the middle of the back of Mr. Finicum, and I squeezed off a single round.'
Officer No. clarifies:
'...I beleive that if I didn't engage Mr. Finicum, that Officer No. 3 was in a vey close proximity and probably would have been shot, and that's what was going through my mind, is that Officer No. 3 was in a very bad spot.'
'And I didn't want to wait -- all these things cross your mind. I didn't want to wait for him to bring out a firearm, because I knew by the time that I was able to recognize that and deal with it, that he could have very likely shot Officer No. 3'
'as I brought the scope up and put the cross hairs on Mr. Finicum's back, while I'm seeing him struggle with something in his coat, I had made a decision at that point that I'm going to fire my rifle....and was starting to squeeze when Officer No. 1 had fired.... '
My point interjected here - according to the SCOTUS - the officer's perception at this point doesn't need to be right, it needs to be objectively reasonable based on the totality of the circumstances known to the officer; in the testimony business we call what officer no. 2 provided 'effective articulation regarding the objective reasonableness of force application.'
I haven't testified before every Federal Grand Jury, but this is very obviously a justified use of lethal force.
The only reason most of you aren't posting 'play silly games, win stupid prizes' is because, well you know....
In reality this thread is about the FBI HRT screwing the pooch by lying multiple times and trying to cover up their actions, again.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-12-16, 16:31
J-dub argument was that either the cops are innocent of everything or that they premeditited Finicum's murder. I always get straw man and RAA arguements mixed up.
Where is officer 3#'s statement? I know what it is going to say, but how he- facing Finicum, didn't feel threatened enough to either taz him or switch to his sidearm. That will be, artful. Throw in the HRT guys getting Pulitzers for fictional writing...
The cops all got their statements so that they are not contradicted by the facts. They made sure they got all the check boxes ticked off. We'll see how well that all holds up in the civil court under cross.
"So the police officer who had direct view Mr Finicum didn't think to even use his non leathal, while the two officers behind him, with out direct knowledge of what Mr Finicum was doing, shot him in the back."
"Did Mr Finicum at any time, to any officer, say anything besides 'Shoot me.'?" He never said 'I'll shoot you", did he?
"This is the highest profile standoff in a decade and no one thought to bring a camera?"
And the subtext to every LEO statement made will be if it is actually true.
J-dub argument was that either the cops are innocent of everything or that they premeditited Finicum's murder. I always get straw man and RAA arguements mixed up.
Where is officer 3#'s statement? I know what it is going to say, but how he- facing Finicum, didn't feel threatened enough to either taz him or switch to his sidearm. That will be, artful. Throw in the HRT guys getting Pulitzers for fictional writing...
The cops all got their statements so that they are not contradicted by the facts. They made sure they got all the check boxes ticked off. We'll see how well that all holds up in the civil court under cross.
"So the police officer who had direct view Mr Finicum didn't think to even use his non leathal, while the two officers behind him, with out direct knowledge of what Mr Finicum was doing, shot him in the back."
"Did Mr Finicum at any time, to any officer, say anything besides 'Shoot me.'?" He never said 'I'll shoot you", did he?
"This is the highest profile standoff in a decade and no one thought to bring a camera?"
And the subtext to every LEO statement made will be if it is actually true.
One of the first use-of-force cases I testified on involved two police officers going to a disturbance involving a young man with a knife. Long story short, the man decides to take a run at the contact officer with his knife, both officers had their weapons out, the backup, even though he wasn't directly threatened shot first. So I guess he should have waited for the first officer to shoot? Damn, that was 20 years ago, too late to change my testimony.
Point being, often we act more decisively to protect others than to protect ourselves.
I got to say one thing - if you hold yourself to the standard you want to hold the officers in this situation, I hope you never run into anyone who means you serious harm.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-12-16, 23:20
One of the first use-of-force cases I testified on involved two police officers going to a disturbance involving a young man with a knife. Long story short, the man decides to take a run at the contact officer with his knife, both officers had their weapons out, the backup, even though he wasn't directly threatened shot first. So I guess he should have waited for the first officer to shoot? Damn, that was 20 years ago, too late to change my testimony.
Point being, often we act more decisively to protect others than to protect ourselves.
I got to say one thing - if you hold yourself to the standard you want to hold the officers in this situation, I hope you never run into anyone who means you serious harm.
I hope if I ever shoot someone in the back I have it investigated like this shooting, and I get a mulligan on my statements like the HRT guys.
Where is officers 3 statement?
Can't control other people's actions? Who picked the location of the roadblock? Why did they pick it?
Why wouldn't they pick that stretch of highway? Rough broken country would A. give them the element of surprise (unlike the area near the refuge) B. probably had poor cell service so the malcontent "protestors" couldnt phone for their militia bro's. and C. Its apparently where they least expected to be taken into custody.
Im going to bow out of this discussion. Its going in circles. I get it, some people who didn't kill anyone lied on their report, for whatever reason. Those people, who didn't kill anyone should be terminated for lying on a use of force report (duh). If you cant get past that, and believe the entire situation was a murder plot from the get go, you either cant look at the facts objectively, your pro Bundy, or some other issue you have with the entities on scene.
I think it is a miracle only one, possibly suicidal, person was killed during this entire situation that not only took place at the refuge, but also on the highway leading to John Day. I think its a tragic story, with a sad, but justified ending. I honestly believe Bundy thought the Feds were going to just back down like they did in 2014; however he thought wrong, and now has the blood of one of his mislead "protestors" on his hands. But I'm sure he'll have no problem living with that, as just like everything else in his eyes, its someone else's fault.
Having only been a member here about a year, I've come to appreciate 26 INF posts as honest and insightful where LEO topics are concerned. I tend to take his word for it as he's seen shit first hand. The only thing I would disagree (well, question really) with is why the HRT Agent lied.
Also, those asking about the lack of taser use...didn't Mr Finicum have on a 3/4 length Carhartt jacket? Those jackets are basically level III armor for tasers. No way it would've had any effect. A bean bag to the face? Maybe. But knowing what could happen if you miss....
And before the Agent changed his statement, and all we had to go on was the overhead video, it ABSOLUTELY appeared to me that Mr Finicum was going for a holstered pistol.
I will say however, that I don't feel Mr Finicum got into that pickup with the intention of committing "suicide by cop", as some have asserted.
That's just my non-professional assessment.
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FromMyColdDeadHand
03-13-16, 10:21
Agree on the circularity. It wasn't an illegal shoot only because Finicum is an ass-hat.
It will all come out at the civil trial.
#3s statement will be interesting
I think #1 will eventually color his comments as to he had to shoot because of the poor tactical situation and blame flows to the HRT guys.
I guess we'll see in a few years if I was right.
platoonDaddy
03-13-16, 11:41
Four HRT agents (Best of The Best) are suspected of helping the agent cover up his conduct. Lying is problematic, why lie about it, am I missing something?
Inkslinger
03-13-16, 12:02
I've been following this thread and the situation in Oregon intermittently so bear with me. If this has been discussed I may have missed it, but could the two shots that didn't hit anything be perceived by the other officers as shots from Finicum?
Do we know when these two shots occurred? Could it be the officer let two slip. Then the officers behind Finicum who couldn't see his hands though they were from him and subsequently shot him in the back?
I hope if I ever shoot someone in the back I have it investigated like this shooting, and I get a mulligan on my statements like the HRT guys.
I hope so also. And I hope you provide as clear a picture of the totality of the circumstance which justified your actions.
Where is officers 3 statement?
I don't have any knowledge of that. Perhaps he hasn't given one as is his right as a citizen.
I've been following this thread and the situation in Oregon intermittently so bear with me. If this has been discussed I may have missed it, but could the two shots that didn't hit anything be perceived by the other officers as shots from Finicum?
Do we know when these two shots occurred? Could it be the officer let two slip. Then the officers behind Finicum who couldn't see his hands though they were from him and subsequently shot him in the back?
Absolutely. The problem with us sitting behind the safety of our keyboards with several videos to look at is we still don't know what the officers saw and felt.
Why wouldn't they pick that stretch of highway? Rough broken country would A. give them the element of surprise (unlike the area near the refuge) B. probably had poor cell service so the malcontent "protestors" couldnt phone for their militia bro's. and C. Its apparently where they least expected to be taken into custody.
Are you being obtuse? I questioned the SPECIFIC location of the roadblock, not the "stretch of highway".
This was not a hasty roadblock set up as a random chase was under way, it was a planned OP. So why choose a curve with limited visibility and why choose not to use spike strips?
I'm saying after learning about a cover up over shooting is it so unreasonable to question the motive of some of the tactical decisions. Was a peaceful resolution and officer safety the main concerns of the plan? I mean the location of the roadblock almost got a cop run over and seems to have contributed to the chaotic situation.
Are you being obtuse? I questioned the SPECIFIC location of the roadblock, not the "stretch of highway".
This was not a hasty roadblock set up as a random chase was under way, it was a planned OP. So why choose a curve with limited visibility and why choose not to use spike strips?
I'm saying after learning about a cover up over shooting is it so unreasonable to question the motive of some of the tactical decisions. Was a peaceful resolution and officer safety the main concerns of the plan? I mean the location of the roadblock almost got a cop run over and seems to have contributed to the chaotic situation.
Todd - From what I saw on the video and the statements of the OSP officers there was enough distance for the vehicle to stop - he chose not to. From a tactical standpoint the roadblock was an apprehension tool, you don't want to place one on a straightaway where the fleeing driver has a minute or so to plan courses of action - as I noted you need to give them sufficient warning so that they have enough time to stop. Additionally, it was not a 'killer' roadblock - the fleeing vehicle was not forced over a cliff on into a river where the driver and occupants would be likely to perish. This bad boy was GTG in my opinion.
I think it is also germaine to note a couple things - 1) Finicum was told he was under arrest after he had initially yielded to the lights and sirens - he chose to flee; 2) the roadblock was also in place to keep motorists from driving head on into the felony car stop down the road.
In terms of stop sticks, pretty sure I read in the statements that they were deployed in front of the roadblock - I don't know how far or anything beyond that.
I don't think it is unreasonable to question the tactical decisions, from my perspective they weren't that bad.
Sadly, I think Mr. Finicum got what he wanted. I hope the folks on both sides whose lives his decisions impacted heal quickly. It is easy to forget when you are typing away at a keyboard, or talking around the office, that we are talking of human beings who, for the most part, start out life loved and wanted, full of promise and joy and that somewhere someone weeps because of their passing.
I see brake lights come on two or three seconds before and stay on into the snowbank.
The brake lights came on only a second before the truck gets shot at. I wonder if they could have stopped or significantly slowed before the point the truck was shot at.
I just really hated watching one of the cops almost get run over. Do police ever use a couple of empty cars to make a chicane style roadblock?
I see brake lights come on two or three seconds before and stay on into the snowbank.
The brake lights came on only a second before the truck gets shot at. I wonder if they could have stopped or significantly slowed before the point the truck was shot at.
I just really hated watching one of the cops almost get run over. Do police ever use a couple of empty cars to make a chicane style roadblock?
The problem with roadblocks is that unless lethal force is justified to stop the vehicle, the roadblock has to be set up so the offenders vehicle has time to stop - Brower v. County of Inyo is the case to look at; https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/489/593/
The biggest problem I see with all of this is the HRT operator shooting at Finnicum as he is exiting the truck (one bullet apparently hitting the roof of the truck, the other missing entirely). These are the two gunshots that can be heard in rapid succession at that point in the video, and are the ones that the FBI agents are in hot water for lying about. Notice not a single one of the OSP troopers interviewed so much as mentioned those shots, and the interviewers didn't ask about them... this despite the fact that all of them had viewed the videos of the incident prior to the interviews. The only mention of it in the entire report is from Officer #5 on pg. 226 of the document, where he says as they pulled up on scene he heard one of the FBI guys in his truck say "he's shooting! He's shooting!" And then looking up and seeing Finnicum coming out of the truck with his hands out to the sides.
They of course had strong motive for lying about these shots, as shooting at someone without legal justification gives rise to a right of self defense on the part of the victim, and calls into question the justification for the entire shooting. Their story reads a lot better for them without the part about an itchy trigger fingered Fed opening fire on him before he presented a lethal threat to anybody.
It would have been better had they just articulated why they felt the initial shots would have been reasonable in the first place.
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platoonDaddy
03-17-16, 17:07
For sure many people believe the Fed's are overstepping their power. Just might have prevented the Oregon incident.
Utah's four House Republicans introduced a bill Wednesday that would strip the Bureau of Land Management and U.S. Forest Service of their power to police federal lands, and give that power over to local cops.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/03/17/utah-republicans-push-to-strip-police-powers-from-feds.html?intcmp=hplnws%22]http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/03/17/utah-republicans-push-to-strip-police-powers-from-feds.html?intcmp=hplnws
I have been involved in many such incidents both as a deputy in the USA, and as a member of an anti terror unit in Israel and finally as a commander of an anti terror unit in Israel.
I have not studied this incident in depth, but know the basics.
First question is has the situation in the USA become so bad that these people could not address their issues in court? When you arm yourself and occupy property, it rarely turns out good.
Second when you have LE officers stop you and are pointing guns at you, comply. You try to run and resist it is only going to get worse for you and not better.
Third when you shoot your mouth off, you will have to kill me and you are know to be armed. It is not a good thing, and you just might get what you vocalize.
Fourth the LE's had many officers on scene better armed and wearing armor so why the rush to shoot the old guy. They say he was reaching for a gun in a shoulder holster, or maybe he was having chest pains from the stress and was grabbing for his chest. I would not have shot the guy at the point in time that he was shot. He was old, supposedly wearing a pistol in a shoulder holster, which doesn't make for the fastest presentation in the world you got a .50 of a second to see for sure what he was doing.
Fifth, FBI lying about things. No say it ain't so. No wait they have had their crime lab investigated for falsifying results in the past.
I know many of us here are upset about the state of the nation, and rightfully so. But use this case to choose wisely. You go to guns or worse and you will end up like this if your timing is wrong. If your timing is correct, you get your picture on a dollar bill.
SomeOtherGuy
03-18-16, 08:44
I have been involved in many such incidents both as a deputy in the USA, and as a member of an anti terror unit in Israel and finally as a commander of an anti terror unit in Israel.
I appreciate your insight.
First question is has the situation in the USA become so bad that these people could not address their issues in court? When you arm yourself and occupy property, it rarely turns out good.
There are at least two responses to this question. For the outpost-occupiers (Bundy group, etc.) it doesn't seem that they tried a legal or less-confrontational method. They basically started out stupid and got worse from there. I don't think any rational person would view their occupation tactics as a good idea.
However, they claimed to be acting in response to the Hammonds' plight. I think the connection is somewhat weak, but not totally zero. The Hammonds were absolutely railroaded in court and are being punished unfairly. That's not just my opinion, it's the opinion and order of the actual federal trial judge who heard their case. When the trial judge considers the punishment unfair and refused to order it, but was overruled by another court, I think it's fair to say that, for the Hammonds, the situation is "so bad" that the court system did not work for them or provide justice. Of course, the Hammonds were not involved in the occupation in any way, disavowed it, and simply showed up to serve many additional years of an unjust sentence.
That doesn't in any way make the occupation legitimate or a good idea; 2+2 doesn't equal 7. But I think you can see how some people would lose confidence in through-the-system challenges when seeing what happened to them.
As a deputy I had an incident that reminded me a little of this one.
We had an armed robbery with 2 suspects a man and a woman, with the get away car being a white chevy . I observed a white chevy with a man and a woman in it. The description fit perfectly even down to the color of the flannel shirt and baseball cap and the womans jacket was a perfect match.
I was in an unmarked car, so I followed them until I got some marked cars with me, and we then did a felony stop. They refused to comply for a long period of time like 10 minutes. We then got them to exit the vehicle, as the man raised his hands we all were able to see a handgun carried IWB.
We got the man and the woman out and proned out, then we saw a head pop up in the back seat and then pop down again. I was ordering the person to exit the vehicle.
ZERO compliance.
This continued for several minutes, then the woman spoke up from her prone position telling us it was her 5 year old son who was belted into a car seat.
A deputy then snuck up to the car and sure enough it was a kid in a car seat.
So we cuffed up the adults, searched the car and came up empty. The husband had a CCW and was following the law perfect.
So I showed them the suspects descriptions and they both said oh man that is us perfectly.
They sent a letter to the Sheriff thanking us for being professional enough to do the right thing and that they were afraid the whole time they would be shot or worse their baby.
Moose-Knuckle
03-18-16, 15:20
As a deputy I had an incident that reminded me a little of this one.
We had an armed robbery with 2 suspects a man and a woman, with the get away car being a white chevy . I observed a white chevy with a man and a woman in it. The description fit perfectly even down to the color of the flannel shirt and baseball cap and the womans jacket was a perfect match.
I was in an unmarked car, so I followed them until I got some marked cars with me, and we then did a felony stop. They refused to comply for a long period of time like 10 minutes. We then got them to exit the vehicle, as the man raised his hands we all were able to see a handgun carried IWB.
We got the man and the woman out and proned out, then we saw a head pop up in the back seat and then pop down again. I was ordering the person to exit the vehicle.
ZERO compliance.
This continued for several minutes, then the woman spoke up from her prone position telling us it was her 5 year old son who was belted into a car seat.
A deputy then snuck up to the car and sure enough it was a kid in a car seat.
So we cuffed up the adults, searched the car and came up empty. The husband had a CCW and was following the law perfect.
So I showed them the suspects descriptions and they both said oh man that is us perfectly.
They sent a letter to the Sheriff thanking us for being professional enough to do the right thing and that they were afraid the whole time they would be shot or worse their baby.
Bravo yoni! Thanks for sharing you story.
Primus Pilum
03-18-16, 17:48
The biggest problem I see with all of this is the HRT operator shooting at Finnicum as he is exiting the truck (one bullet apparently hitting the roof of the truck, the other missing entirely). These are the two gunshots that can be heard in rapid succession at that point in the video, and are the ones that the FBI agents are in hot water for lying about. Notice not a single one of the OSP troopers interviewed so much as mentioned those shots, and the interviewers didn't ask about them... this despite the fact that all of them had viewed the videos of the incident prior to the interviews. The only mention of it in the entire report is from Officer #5 on pg. 226 of the document, where he says as they pulled up on scene he heard one of the FBI guys in his truck say "he's shooting! He's shooting!" And then looking up and seeing Finnicum coming out of the truck with his hands out to the sides.
They of course had strong motive for lying about these shots, as shooting at someone without legal justification gives rise to a right of self defense on the part of the victim, and calls into question the justification for the entire shooting. Their story reads a lot better for them without the part about an itchy trigger fingered Fed opening fire on him before he presented a lethal threat to anybody.
Fleeing Armed felons who have called for armed rebellion who tried to use their vehicle as a weapon at a roadblock get deaded? NFG
Primus Pilum
03-18-16, 17:53
For sure many people believe the Fed's are overstepping their power. Just might have prevented the Oregon incident.
Utah's four House Republicans introduced a bill Wednesday that would strip the Bureau of Land Management and U.S. Forest Service of their power to police federal lands, and give that power over to local cops.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/03/17/utah-republicans-push-to-strip-police-powers-from-feds.html?intcmp=hplnws%22]http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/03/17/utah-republicans-push-to-strip-police-powers-from-feds.html?intcmp=hplnws
More "feels" to apease low IQ voter bases who don't even begin to understand the dynamic.
If people knew how few DOI LE officers and how little enforcement activity there was, they would be screaming for more officers. You have to be a combination of incredibly stupid , unlucky and woefully negligent to even come into contact with one. There is maybe 1 officer for every 7-10 Million acres managed. Think about that for a minute.
Local LE does not want nor would they want to take over. Feds can't afford much needed LE, what makes you think your locals will? Especially in places where there is little/no coms and response times are measured in hours. There are places in my district that have 5-6 hour response times, assuming weather permits.
These types of threads are great, people who don't even know what the issues are somehow have the solutions.
Fleeing Armed felons who have called for armed rebellion who tried to use their vehicle as a weapon at a roadblock get deaded?Sorry I am unbiased observer and what you are stating directly conflicts the video evidence posted. I have no dog in this fight. Save the bullshit. Respectively
Primus Pilum
03-18-16, 19:53
Sorry I am unbiased observer and what you are stating directly conflicts the video evidence posted. I have no dog in this fight. Save the bullshit. Respectively
WTF are you talking about.
-Wanted for NUMEROUS felonies including the armed take over of a federal facility
-Wanted for NUMEROUS felonies for threating/Impeding LE officers executing court orders after about 20 years of non-compliance/law breaking from 2 years earlier
-Repeatedly stated they will used dead force if confronted
-Repeatedly called for insurrection and open rebellion
-When LE attempted to stoped them, they fleed
-Attempted to run a road block, including almost hitting an officer who had to dive out of the way for his life
-Failed to comply with LE orders and decided suicide by cop was better that a concrete cell for the next 10-20yrs.
Sorry, you are not an unbiased observer, you are an ignorant observer who is conveniently ignoring all of the events and choices made by these individuals that led to this event. They are 100% culpable for their actions and their current situations. You are so far from reality it hurts. Who is your source? Sovereign Citizens.com?
Sorry I am unbiased observer and what you are stating directly conflicts the video evidence posted. I have no dog in this fight. Save the bullshit. Respectively
I don't agree -
First stop: You are under arrest. Guys flees, now fleeing arrest.
Roadblock: Vehicle approaches, adequate warning to stop, no apparent reduction in speed - a vehicle can be a deadly weapon, courts have said so numerous times.
When it becomes apparent the vehicle is going to punch the roadblock and there are people in the vicinity of the pinball flippers (cars) it is nearly impossible to say it is not objectively reasonable for an officer to shoot - if you are truly unbiased.
The vehicle goes off road - unknown if in response to the shots fired at it or the driver's plan. As vehicle leaves roadway at least one officer is in the immediate vicinity of the vehicle's path - at that point regardless of the driver's intent, he is using a deadly weapon to facilitate escape.
I don't know if it is true you have no bias re these events. I do know that it is not incorrect to infer the vehicle was a deadly weapon.
You want to suddenly reach into your jacket because you have angina? In the totality of the circumstances - being filmed on youtube with a blade, pistol and at least once wearing a shoulder holster, making statements which any reasonable person would find threatening - well, you might want to rethink that and suck it up for a moment.
I don't celebrate the fact Finicum is dead, he was a fellow human. But he chose to set into motion the circumstances which resulted in that result.
ETA - didn't I say it nicer than Primus?
Primus:
Are you here just to pick fights with other members? This topic is a dead horse. I think everyone has had their say in this volatile and controversial topic. It's time to move on.
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