Army Gender Integration Implementation Plan

[platoonDaddy]

For sure this paves the road for females to serve in the Infantry, Armor, and Special Forces.

10 March 2016

Beginning this year, female officers will be able to branch as Infantry and Armor officers. The "leader first" approach will be followed by assignment of female enlisted Soldiers to operational units with gender integrated leadership.

http://www.army.mil/standto/archive_2016-03-10/?s_cid=standto

[ABNAK]

•Updating physical and administrative screening standards

Uh huh. And there my friends is the fly in the ointment.

Does SF really need to do a 22 mile ruck at the end of Selection? [you don't change the standards for women, you just change them for everyone and viola', it's like magic]

[Dist. Expert 26]

I'm glad I'm out. We've had this debate before, women and combat arms is a horrible combination, and another reason we must defeat the leftists this election. Our military cannot win a war with integrated units. I sincerely hope that good men don't have to die before we figure that out.

[SomeOtherGuy]

So.... how many women does it take to change the track on an M1 tank?

Serious question.

[Dist. Expert 26]

•Updating physical and administrative screening standards

Uh huh. And there my friends is the fly in the ointment.

Does SF really need to do a 22 mile ruck at the end of Selection? [you don't change the standards for women, you just change them for everyone and viola', it's like magic]

I read somewhere they've already taken rucking out of the army's equivalent of IOC. How anyone doesn't see that this is nothing more than an attempt to destroy the integrity of our military is beyond me.

[chuckman]

I understand 4 women are already slated for an upcoming SFAS. Curious to hear the feedback.

[ABNAK]

I understand 4 women are already slated for an upcoming SFAS. Curious to hear the feedback.

Not sure how they do it in SFAS but the "green cards" of those female Ranger candidates (where they apparently record go/no-go's) were shredded when a Congressman requested them under the FOIA. Expect the same out of SFAS.

I know someone will inevitably mention all those Ranger candidate officers who said "Yeah, they earned it". Do you really think some LT is gonna speak his mind in a recorded interview about what he actually saw? I mean, talk about a career-ender early on! They wouldn't make CPT after that, guaranteed

[26 Inf]

•Updating physical and administrative screening standards

Uh huh. And there my friends is the fly in the ointment.

Does SF really need to do a 22 mile ruck at the end of Selection? [you don't change the standards for women, you just change them for everyone and viola', it's like magic]

In my opinion they do - it's not the distance it is how hard they push, and what they do once they've completed the hump - do they flop, do they help others, etc.

However, I agree with you, the likely outcome is no, not 'really'

[platoonDaddy]

Not sure how they do it in SFAS but the "green cards" of those female Ranger candidates (where they apparently record go/no-go's) were shredded when a Congressman requested them under the FOIA. Expect the same out of SFAS.

I know someone will inevitably mention all those Ranger candidate officers who said "Yeah, they earned it". Do you really think some LT is gonna speak his mind in a recorded interview about what he actually saw? I mean, talk about a career-ender early on! They wouldn't make CPT after that, guaranteed


From an old friend: They already lowered/changed the standards with Ranger School. All the females had a special PT program for weeks prior to school. They also received unprecedented recycles. I believe but cannot confirm they had special treatment during the course as well. food, rest, menstrual cycles.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

So they are just going to let everyone pretty much qualify physically and then use some criteria for who actually gets selected?

[Dist. Expert 26]

Let's just pretend for a second a woman makes it through Q course and gets assigned to an ODA. What then? Anyone with combat arms experience knows that women won't last long at an operational tempo. At what point does the PC train stop so reality can take over?

[Whiskey_Bravo]

So.... how many women does it take to change the track on an M1 tank?

Serious question.

Just one, she will be telling the men how to do it.

[KalashniKEV]

Do you really think some LT is gonna speak his mind in a recorded interview about what he actually saw? I mean, talk about a career-ender early on! They wouldn't make CPT after that, guaranteed

An honest question that I would like you to answer:

"Do you really think the RI's would compromise the Ranger standard?"

[ABNAK]

An honest question that I would like you to answer:

"Do you really think the RI's would compromise the Ranger standard?"

If ordered to do so, yes. They're soldiers after all, right?

Not sure where I read it but there was also something about NDA's and of course that has teeth to it if you decide to buck the system.

Question for you: do you not believe that if one of those officers interviewed that had gone through the course with the females had spilled the beans (IF there were any to spill) that their career would be a short one?

[SteyrAUG]

Let's just pretend for a second a woman makes it through Q course and gets assigned to an ODA. What then? Anyone with combat arms experience knows that women won't last long at an operational tempo. At what point does the PC train stop so reality can take over?

I think before anything else we should require women to register with selective service at 18, just like everyone else. You know...equality.

[ABNAK]

I just wonder if a new POTUS (i.e. not a Dem) can undo all this PC social-engineering bullshit. Well, at least have the balls to do it......

[Firefly]

I see this as a self resolving problem:
-Females won't volunteer for combat arms
-Those that do will "unexpectedly" get pregnant to get out of it
-They'll promote themselves to supervisory roles where their prowess won't be an issue
-Those that are sincere will either do a good job or die off.

It's like police work....after a while a lot of police females get married, self assign or get promote to where they are very much not doing anything.

The ones that ARE worth a damn are well worth having

[ABNAK]

I see this as a self resolving problem:
-Females won't volunteer for combat arms
-Those that do will "unexpectedly" get pregnant to get out of it
-They'll promote themselves to supervisory roles where their prowess won't be an issue
-Those that are sincere will either do a good job or die off.

It's like police work....after a while a lot of police females get married, self assign or get promote to where they are very much not doing anything.

The ones that ARE worth a damn are well worth having

Having been in the Army (albeit 3 decades ago) I can tell you what will happen. The few women who go Infantry will be occupying slots now filled by slug men......arms room, company clerk, BN mail clerk, etc. And of course you dare not deny them promotions based on their inability to perform in an Infantry slot; no, they will be promoted just as if they were humping a 60lb ruck and mortar baseplate, even though they sit in the "rear with the gear" on their slowly widening asses. :rolleyes:

[Eurodriver]

Exactly.

Everyone knows females get pregnant almost immediately once the hard work starts. This is a non-issue.

[carolvs]

I see this as a self resolving problem:
-Females won't volunteer for combat arms
-Those that do will "unexpectedly" get pregnant to get out of it
-They'll promote themselves to supervisory roles where their prowess won't be an issue
-Those that are sincere will either do a good job or die off.

It's like police work....after a while a lot of police females get married, self assign or get promote to where they are very much not doing anything.

The ones that ARE worth a damn are well worth having

The problem is how the lowered standards will effect the men long-term, since the gender neutral standard won't go away even if no females apply. Airborne that can't jump and Rangers that can't ruck?

[KalashniKEV]

If ordered to do so, yes. They're soldiers after all, right?

"Ordered" by who?

(Obama??)


Not sure where I read it but there was also something about NDA's and of course that has teeth to it if you decide to buck the system.

Lots of things worth doing come with NDAs attached nowadays...


Question for you: do you not believe that if one of those officers interviewed that had gone through the course with the females had spilled the beans (IF there were any to spill) that their career would be a short one?

What Officers?

What about all the Bat Boys and NCOs in the class?

And what do you mean by "their career would be a short one?"

Like... a CIA assassin would take them out?

They would plant drugs in their locker and send them to Leavenworth?

They would get a bunch of shitty assignments in shitty places and then get deployed 1 year on, 1 year off... like every single other Infantryman in the Army?

When you earned your tab, did you have the impression that the RIs were handing out GO's to help their "careers" because of political considerations that they had??

Your whole premise is wacky and weird.

[ABNAK]

"Ordered" by who? Gee, I dunno, their fvcking superiors?

(Obama??)



Lots of things worth doing come with NDAs attached nowadays... Why would there need to be NDA's for Ranger school? Does every RI sign one? A buddy of mine was an RI and didn't have to sign one. Hmmm....



What Officers?

What about all the Bat Boys and NCOs in the class?

And what do you mean by "their career would be a short one?" What the hell do you think I meant? Don't be coy, you're not good at it.

Like... a CIA assassin would take them out?

They would plant drugs in their locker and send them to Leavenworth?

They would get a bunch of shitty assignments in shitty places and then get deployed 1 year on, 1 year off... like every single other Infantryman in the Army?

When you earned your tab, did you have the impression that the RIs were handing out GO's to help their "careers" because of political considerations that they had??

Your whole premise is wacky and weird.

And as usual you swing to the Left. No surprise there. Didn't answer the question though, again as usual.

[GTF425]

Nevermind.

[KalashniKEV]

And as usual you swing to the Left. No surprise there. Didn't answer the question though, again as usual.

I honestly have no idea what you mean about "getting your career cut short."

If not by death or prison, then by what mechanism???

I will ask you again- when you earned your tab, did you ever have the impression that standards were not upheld?

[ABNAK]

I honestly have no idea what you mean about "getting your career cut short."

If not by death or prison, then by what mechanism???

I will ask you again- when you earned your tab, did you ever have the impression that standards were not upheld?

Nice bait job, as I don't recall ever saying I got a Ranger tab. And you, since we're telling-all? I am, however, friends with a guy who was in 1st Batt and has the mustard stain from Torrijos Airport in '89. Was also an RI at the mountain phase in GA. Retired as a pilot from the 160th. Spoke to him this evening as a matter of fact and it seems no NDA's were signed back in the day, and we both agreed it may or may not have happened as it's hearsay in this case. Nonetheless, he still has contacts in the system and he raises an eyebrow as to what happened last year in Ranger school. I'll take his word over yours.

[KalashniKEV]

Nice bait job, as I don't recall ever saying I got a Ranger tab.

Well then that at least makes it clear where the chip on your shoulder comes from.

Maybe it's best that you refrain from commenting on this subject?

[ABNAK]

Well then that at least makes it clear where the chip on your shoulder comes from.

Maybe it's best that you refrain from commenting on this subject?

And you? Tabbed? Even if you are I'll take my friend's comments much more to heart than yours, as he lived the life and spent his career operating in and for SOF. But please, enlighten me.

If you earned a tab then good for you. You weren't in that class, so you don't KNOW shit about what occurred, do you?

[pinzgauer]

I read somewhere they've already taken rucking out of the army's equivalent of IOC. How anyone doesn't see that this is nothing more than an attempt to destroy the integrity of our military is beyond me.

Absolutely not the case for officers in IBOLC, multiple graded rucks, building up to a final one which must be passed at the Ranger School standard.

Essentially, IN LTs have to perform at the RS standard and will complete most of the RS big events. Including smaller doses of sleep and food deprivation.

Carrying the SAW my LT son's mandatory load out was over 100 lbs at times. (Was good prep for RS thouugh, he went straight thru even as a winter Ranger)

[pinzgauer]

I will ask you again- when you earned your tab, did you ever have the impression that standards were not upheld?

This!

Can't speak to treatment in Patrols with the fems. The number of allowed recycles was extremely rare and most never get that number of chances.

The students are told you can't recycle for the same thing twice, so I'm trying to figure out how they got 3 recycles in Darby.

As to lowered standards, there is quite a bit of informal comparison that takes place, some with fairly detailed notes.

And the consensus seems to be the 2016 experience is pretty much the same as 2014, 2009, etc.

There is more variance with conditions, which the RIs adjust for than year over year comparison.

The RIs even tell them, the black boot guys were allowed to have tobacco, so it's a wash.

My son's experience is that what sucks about RS is not the official events (tough they do suck), it's what happens in between.

Just one example: ruck march... planned and trained for. But the 100 yards of frog hops and duck walks in full kit with M4 to get to the start was what made it so hard.

[pinzgauer]

the "green cards" of those female Ranger candidates (where they apparently record go/no-go's) were shredded when a Congressman requested them under the FOIA.

Don't know how long it's been policy but apparently all green cards are shredded, and only the phases recycled and why are retained in the record.

No AER, if you pass you earned the tab and that's all that matters.

Not defending the fems, just that this particular item is not evidence of conspiracy

[Benito]

I see this as a self resolving problem:
-Females won't volunteer for combat arms
-Those that do will "unexpectedly" get pregnant to get out of it
-They'll promote themselves to supervisory roles where their prowess won't be an issue
-Those that are sincere will either do a good job or die off.

It's like police work....after a while a lot of police females get married, self assign or get promote to where they are very much not doing anything.

The ones that ARE worth a damn are well worth having

That doesn't sound self-resolving at all.
Putting unqualified, inexperienced, untested and untrusted people in supervisory roles will hurt morale, put lives at risk and self-perpetuate (the more crappy higher-ups there are, the more crappy people will be promoted upwards).


I honestly have no idea what you mean about "getting your career cut short."

If not by death or prison, then by what mechanism???

I will ask you again- when you earned your tab, did you ever have the impression that standards were not upheld?

Anyone who has ever worked for more than, say a few months, in any organization (either civilian or military) knows that people who don't toe certain lines (whether these lines are justified or not) find their careers stymied or cut short without being killed or imprisoned.
Life can be made difficult through a number of ways. Being ostracized in the workplace, cutting back of resources, overt mistreatment, terrible performance reviews, backroom dealing, etc.
I cannot believe that I have to explain this.

[ramairthree]

I have been told they met the standard.

However,
When you look for thousands of volunteers to get a few hundred candidates to spend weeks and months of preparation and training to get a dozen or two candidates to result in one or two graduates, with canidates coming disproportionality from officers instead of enlisted,
That had far, far, more recycle time than is the norm to graduate.

It makes as much sense as looking for NBA power forwards in a pool of 5' 10" white guys.

Even among carefully chosen pools,
Say for CSTs, vs the general female military pool,
For any given selection type event,
You would need over 1600 female candidates to get as many passes as from 100 men.
And for some reason there is a very skewed quality density issue in enlisted vs officer females.
There is virtually no quality density differences in male officer vs enlisted operators, etc.
Less of those that passed selection would pass the training.
More would get hurt.
Less would recover from the injuries.
Less that finish selection and training and don't get hurt will actually result in deploying.
Less will actually complete the deployment.
More will have injury or psyc issues during the deployment.
More will have post deployment issues.
There is way may drama in mixed settings.
All female units have insane drama for their size compared to all male.
Male combat arms types have mental issues at baseline less than the civilian population.
Females seeking this environment have higher.
It's like the same psyc shit that turns out strippers in some chicks makes some look to do this.

And this is in short term train for a few months deploy for four settings. Where they don't even go on a ton of the missions.

At selection and training levels far below real SOF pipelines.

Not even considering long term sustainability physically and mentally in Infantry let alone SOF.
And when I say SOF I don't ****ing mean Civil Affairs, PsyOps, etc.
I mean Force Recon/MARSOC, CCT/PJ, Ranger Bn, SF, SEALs. Guys that fail young, healthy male military guys in 50% or more type stuff.

And what were CSTs even needed for? To search women. A completely nonsense need self inflicted requirement.

I have a strong sense of fairness. Long ago I felt anyone making the standards should be good to go.
But after almost 30 years before I retired, it is completely idiotic and serves no functional, practical purpose.
There are roles, some very high speed, but blanket being the same/interchangeable is not one of them.

Letting anyone that meets the standards in sounds good.

But either the standards for some are different than for others:
Affirmative action was not supposed to mean some dumbasses that can't do the job are hired and are impossible to fire. But that does occur.
Equal opportunity was not supposed to mean med students taking five or six years to graduate med school and becoming doctors that can't pass boards, but it has.

Or either the standards get lowered:
Choose your own examples. But anyone in on this message traffic from day one knew requirements and standards were going to be reviewed to ensure they were necessary. SQT went away. GT scores for certain things were lowered.

Anyone not a victim to their own sense of fairness and strong conviction of justice knows this is a horrible, idiotic idea.
It is a product of liberal magical thinking, the mental disorder that wishing and wanting things to be a certain way makes it so.
Or in some cases, of leftist/progressive destructive goals to ruin good things.

I was not Delta or SEAL Team 6 operator.
I was among that other mass of SOF. The guys that passed a pipeline and were in a different Tier 1 unit, or a Ranger Bn, an ODA, SEAL platoon, etc. There is truly a part of this country that loathes either of the above and does not want them to exist as they currently do.

[Moose-Knuckle]

It makes as much sense as looking for NBA power forwards in a pool of 5' 10" white guys.

Yeah I'm still waiting for them to diversify.

[Benito]

It is just another in a long line of attempts to impose a vision of preconceived notions onto reality, and to turn the military into kindergarten.

[ABNAK]

I have been told they met the standard.

However,
When you look for thousands of volunteers to get a few hundred candidates to spend weeks and months of preparation and training to get a dozen or two candidates to result in one or two graduates, with canidates coming disproportionality from officers instead of enlisted,
That had far, far, more recycle time than is the norm to graduate.

It makes as much sense as looking for NBA power forwards in a pool of 5' 10" white guys.

Even among carefully chosen pools,
Say for CSTs, vs the general female military pool,
For any given selection type event,
You would need over 1600 female candidates to get as many passes as from 100 men.
And for some reason there is a very skewed quality density issue in enlisted vs officer females.
There is virtually no quality density differences in male officer vs enlisted operators, etc.
Less of those that passed selection would pass the training.
More would get hurt.
Less would recover from the injuries.
Less that finish selection and training and don't get hurt will actually result in deploying.
Less will actually complete the deployment.
More will have injury or psyc issues during the deployment.
More will have post deployment issues.
There is way may drama in mixed settings.
All female units have insane drama for their size compared to all male.
Male combat arms types have mental issues at baseline less than the civilian population.
Females seeking this environment have higher.
It's like the same psyc shit that turns out strippers in some chicks makes some look to do this.

And this is in short term train for a few months deploy for four settings. Where they don't even go on a ton of the missions.

At selection and training levels far below real SOF pipelines.

Not even considering long term sustainability physically and mentally in Infantry let alone SOF.
And when I say SOF I don't ****ing mean Civil Affairs, PsyOps, etc.
I mean Force Recon/MARSOC, CCT/PJ, Ranger Bn, SF, SEALs. Guys that fail young, healthy male military guys in 50% or more type stuff.

And what were CSTs even needed for? To search women. A completely nonsense need self inflicted requirement.

I have a strong sense of fairness. Long ago I felt anyone making the standards should be good to go.
But after almost 30 years before I retired, it is completely idiotic and serves no functional, practical purpose.
There are roles, some very high speed, but blanket being the same/interchangeable is not one of them.

Letting anyone that meets the standards in sounds good.

But either the standards for some are different than for others:
Affirmative action was not supposed to mean some dumbasses that can't do the job are hired and are impossible to fire. But that does occur.
Equal opportunity was not supposed to mean med students taking five or six years to graduate med school and becoming doctors that can't pass boards, but it has.

Or either the standards get lowered:
Choose your own examples. But anyone in on this message traffic from day one knew requirements and standards were going to be reviewed to ensure they were necessary. SQT went away. GT scores for certain things were lowered.

Anyone not a victim to their own sense of fairness and strong conviction of justice knows this is a horrible, idiotic idea.
It is a product of liberal magical thinking, the mental disorder that wishing and wanting things to be a certain way makes it so.
Or in some cases, of leftist/progressive destructive goals to ruin good things.

I was not Delta or SEAL Team 6 operator.
I was among that other mass of SOF. The guys that passed a pipeline and were in a different Tier 1 unit, or a Ranger Bn, an ODA, SEAL platoon, etc. There is truly a part of this country that loathes either of the above and does not want them to exist as they currently do.

Given your background I greatly appreciate the input. Well said. Some here wholeheartedly embrace the Leftist social-engineering pillar of, as you put it, "...wishing and wanting things to be a certain way makes it so." Then you actually have the opinion of someone who's BTDT over the course of a career. I think I know whose input I'll value.

Thanks again for your sharing your experienced and qualified opinion.
.

[Dist. Expert 26]

More food for thought- not one female was able to complete IOC. Most dropped on day one, and more than a few have lasting physical issues as a result. IOC is no joke, but it's not an SOF selection either. Plenty of great infantry officers still fail out of MARSOC A&S and BRC.

Thus, if women are able to pass those courses it's a good indicator that standards have been lowered and/or they received special treatment.

[KalashniKEV]

And you? Tabbed? ...But please, enlighten me.

Of course... otherwise why would I be running my suck on M4C about things I never experienced or don't know about.

Sure, I could throw out an opinion on crab fishing quotas in Alaska, but it wouldn't be worth a damn.

Why not start a thread on the T-gurl Navy SEAL, since you've just as much earned your Trident as your Tab?


If you earned a tab then good for you. You weren't in that class, so you don't KNOW shit about what occurred, do you?

...and for an account of what happened, from someone in that class, we now go to SOFREP:

https://sofrep.com/42761/really-happened-women-ranger-school-class-06-15/


I am, however, friends with a guy...

Awwwww... SCHNAPPS!!1!


The students are told you can't recycle for the same thing twice, so I'm trying to figure out how they got 3 recycles in Darby.

They asked and were granted Day Zero Recycles... which doesn't happen always, but happens every year for a few.

Lots of dudes who can't hack it just hit the road.

I'm sure the urge was there for these ladies after having basically spent close to a year at that point in some kind of Pre-Ranger or Ranger School itself. That alone should be a clue to those who have been there that these ladies have very little Quit in them.


The RIs even tell them, the black boot guys were allowed to have tobacco, so it's a wash.

I earned my tab in the shiny boots Army, but after tobacco was banned.

This alone would have been such a HUGE aid for me, personally. I suffered for lack of sleep more than anything else and could have used the pick me up.


Life can be made difficult through a number of ways. Being ostracized in the workplace, cutting back of resources, overt mistreatment, terrible performance reviews, backroom dealing, etc.
I cannot believe that I have to explain this.

It still makes no sense to me... let's say you made things ten times harder for any female Ranger Students and kept them all out- just move along to any broke dick unit in the Army filled with people who can't muster the courage to go to School or who failed out and you'll be a HERO.

LOL

They'll name a building after you and then put your desk in it!

[26 Inf]

never mind

[SeriousStudent]

Enough smartasstic remarks.