Ok shooting with an RMR isn't as easy as I thought.... [Archive]

MStarmer

03-10-16, 15:47

Well after contemplating getting an RMR put on either a M&P or a Glock for several years I finally lept. After Christmas I sent a new Gen 4 G19 to Doug at ATEi and got an RMR06 installed. I have to say shooting with a dot is not nearly as easy as I thought it would be. In fact finding that darn thing under pressure (or timer) seems to be pretty difficult! I'm hoping that some serious dryfire and practice will speed things up but for now I'm a little humbled.

Anyone have any links to some threads with tips/tricks or drills when relearning how to shoot again? :cool:

Got it sighted in today where I think I want it. If nothing else it's one of the coolest guns I own now!

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg68/mstarmer/IMG_0403.jpg (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/mstarmer/media/IMG_0403.jpg.html)

Sterling Archer

03-10-16, 15:51

That's a good looking setup!

themonk

03-10-16, 15:55

Don't hunt for the dot. Draw like normal and go to the front sight and there is the dot, do that a thousand times and you'll forget about the front sight.

Defaultmp3

03-10-16, 16:00

In fact finding that darn thing under pressure (or timer) seems to be pretty difficult! I'm hoping that some serious dryfire and practice will speed things up but for now I'm a little humbled.Are you talking about finding the dot? If so, constantly hunting for the dot simply means you don't have a refined index yet. IME, it simply takes time; I also have a laser to help me index. With my practice, I'm usually able draw with my eye closed, and open them to find the dot already floating in front of me, at least for conventional two-handed draws; my SHO/WHO/unconventional position draws do not have as well-refined an index, and I take noticeably longer to acquire the dot (probably about a quarter to half second longer). Once I find the dot, I'm usually able to index the gun back into the right spot after recoil; I definitely do lose the dot during recoil, though.

If you're looking to seriously pimp out the gun and run a slide-mounted red dot to the max speed, consider getting a compensator, which allows for the slide to recoil flatter, and make picking up the dot again easier; supposedly some guys in the SMUs have been running that (along with an X300U), as this gives a G19 the same OAL as a G34, and fits the same duty holsters.

trinydex

03-10-16, 16:04

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=16978

WatchTheWorldBern

03-10-16, 16:22

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=16978
Just had this open in a window to post. MStarmer, curious how much of this lines up with your experience. I've been considering a 19 MOS + RMR, but I have zero experience with pistol mounted optics, and I've been worried it wouldn't really work out like I want it to.

MStarmer

03-10-16, 16:37

Just had this open in a window to post. MStarmer, curious how much of this lines up with your experience. I've been considering a 19 MOS + RMR, but I have zero experience with pistol mounted optics, and I've been worried it wouldn't really work out like I want it to.

I don't know why I didn't even think about MSW, thanks for the link!

I'd say it's pretty spot on after glancing at the article. I'm a decent shot, I shot Sharpshooter at my first IDPA classifier a few weeks ago and do well in our local pistol leagues. I have no problem finding and focusing on the front sight, training myself not too though, I'm not sure how long that will take. This is exactly when I hesitated dropping the $$ on an RMR, I knew there would be a learning curve, plus the know limitations and drawbacks of pistol mounted optics. But like anything until you have one for yourself, train with it and such you aren't going to know if you like it. I'm sure eventually I'll be smokin' with it but for now I'm sticking with my standard sight setups for carry.

I like the thought of the MOS guns but I just can't stand the gaps compared to the way ATEi does them.

themonk

03-10-16, 17:01

Just takes reps. Both live and dry fire. Buy a case of ammo and do from the holster draws. Your brain needs to learn where to find the dot and you also need to do rapid fire and double taps as your brain needs to learn tracking the dot in recoil and anticipating when you will get the dot back in your line of sight.

I dont think there is a better aid for dry fire trigger control reps than an rds pistol. The dot will show you when you are jerking the trigger. I have had an ATEi gun for a few years now and use it as my daily driver. Took a while to figure it out but after about a thousand rounds your brain has an epiphany and you just pick up the dot on the draw. When you first get it you want to shoot lots of long range shots. I would encourage you to focus on the 7-10 yard draw and remember at close ranges you can just use it as a large ghost ring.

RHINOWSO

03-10-16, 17:14

Yup, it's not as easy as a RDS on a rifle.

charger02

03-10-16, 19:35

If it's not as easy as a RDS on a rifle what is the advantage over traditional pistol sights?

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t15

03-10-16, 19:58

If it's not as easy as a RDS on a rifle what is the advantage over traditional pistol sights?

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the same advantages an rds gives you on a rifle over iron sights.

if your pistol slide has the iron sights in the traditional placement with rds cowitness, you simply use the iron sights for target acquisition and then transfer to the dot as it it will be sitting on top of the front sight post. after doing it this way for a hundred draws, you learn new indexing points on the pistol and can "line up" the dot inside of the window faster than the front sight post in the notch. consider the window is much larger and you can shoot with the dot in any of the 4 corners etc. you can logically understand it has to be mechanically faster. the only limitation is the stubborn shooter!

so there's 1 advantage, speed. the dot is much easier to track during recoil than iron sights and does not cover your target on long range hold overs.

the show stopper though is the most obvious advantage being accuracy. even with competition serrated black iron sights with very skinny post and notch, there is still a margin of error involved with centering the post and at the obvious cost of speed and low light situations. with a dot you can have your cake and eat it too.

i agree with the previous poster that an rds pistol is the best dry fire practice. i think a common problem with the dot is you can see every bit of movement you are putting into the gun before completing your trigger press. on iron sights you simply dont notice this and do not try to predict and fire as the sight crosses your target. everyone knows this is shooting fundamentals 101, the rds will help you conquer this problem.

where i really struggle is using an rds in absolute dark without night sights as you can no longer use visual indexing of the pistol to get into position, you have to be 95% perfect presentation to get your eye behind the window. i strongly suggest anyone carrying an rds consider tritium cowitness irons.

Adam_s

03-10-16, 21:53

I've run an MRDS equipped handgun in some way, shape or form for a while now. In, "ideal," conditions, I've found that I'm about as fast with the RMR as I am with irons. However, where the RMR shines is in adverse conditions, odd positions, or generally shooting outside of your comfort zone.

One thing I found difficult was turning my brain off, so that I would not try to align the dot with my iron sights. That sounds counterintuitive, but depending upon the range to target, and position-where the dot is (and thus, if zero'ed properly, where the bullet will go), is not always exactly where the irons are. I've found I need to relax MORE when shooting with an MRDS equipped pistol, and let mechanics and technology take over, as opposed to force everything. Not sure if that makes sense...but hopefully it helps.

DaBigBR

03-11-16, 05:02

Target focused shooting, single point of alignment, two eyes open, etc. Just because it isn't 100% if off what it would be with a rifle does not mean it isn't an improvement over standard pistol sights.

yoni

03-11-16, 05:34

Kelly McCann for years ran his Glock 19 with a Dr. Optic. I bought my first Dr, Optic in 2001, which my son is still using in Israel. I now have RMR on my Glock.

I have been wondering for a number of years if a rear sight is needed. I have had great luck and never had any issues with any of my RMRs.

Based on the rule of 3 for self defense shootings in the USA, at 3 meters I just index the pistol and shoot the bad guy. The RMR comes into it's own for me at longer ranges. But do I really need, the ability to shoot at 25 meters for self defense in the USA?

We could use the window of the red dot as a huge ghost ring for the front sight if the red dot should crap out.

A pistol fight is not like a rifle engagement, a rifle with BUI you are still in the fight out to hundreds of meters and in a war zone you need it.

I just am starting to question what we need for EDC in the USA?

Oh for youth, when we need not worry about sights and being able to shoot accurately even at 5o meters.

ChaseN

03-11-16, 05:54

If it's not as easy as a RDS on a rifle what is the advantage over traditional pistol sights?

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One of three main advantages of an rds on a pistol OR rifle (for me!) is focus shift, or lack thereof. In a gun fight you WILL be looking at your target constantly, either to assess how effective your shots are, or just because it's 10,000 years of overwhelming human instinct telling you to focus on the threat to your life on this earth rather than a tiny little piece of steel on the front of your gun. With an rds you're focusing on your target the entire time, and I personally think it's a significant time saver (assuming you are able to control yourself and shift focus between the threat and your front sight) and tactical advantage over irons in that regard.

RHINOWSO

03-11-16, 06:53

I didn't mean to imply that because it isn't as mindlessly intuitive as RDS on a rifle that it isn't worth it.

It's just different. I only use a RDS on a 22 bullseye pistol and once you get used to it, it's great (especially for that type of shooting).

It just takes practice, like everything else.

Eurodriver

03-11-16, 07:41

It just takes practice, like everything else.

At the risk of sounding like a one upper, I took my G19 w/ RM07 out yesterday as well and had great results. Good day for it I guess ;)

My only experience firing it has been at 50 yards to check zero and see how well it can shoot at distance. I haven't run any drills before today, but I have spent hours practicing drawing, dry firing, etc and when I finally got to run timed drills I was so insanely faster and more accurate with the RMR that it made me swear off iron sighted handguns ever again. At 10 yards I was putting rounds through the same hole. Not one or two. Entire magazines of 9mm you could cover with a quarter. I have a Stormlake barrel and was shooting suppressed, so I'm not sure if that had anything to do with increasing the inherent accuracy.

It just takes practice, as Rhino said. You will get it. I was doing hammer pairs like it was cool. I literally couldn't miss. Mag dumps of 9mm at 25 yards you could cover with a pie plate. I'm talking "Let's see how fast I can pull this trigger and see what happens" fast - and it was still on. For me, that's pretty incredible. I've never had more fun with a handgun.

ramairthree

03-13-16, 06:34

I am relatively new to them as well.

And liking them.

Ernst

03-13-16, 06:53

This should be read very carefully and with understanding... as posted by member:YONI.

"Based on the rule of 3 for self defense shootings in the USA, at 3 meters I just index the pistol and shoot the bad guy. The RMR comes into it's own for me at longer ranges. But do I really need, the ability to shoot at 25 meters for self defense in the USA?"

This is precisely why I got rid or my RDS on handguns. I'm not a gun gamer and have no need for them. Once I realized that, I sold them off and have never looked back.

C4IGrant

03-13-16, 07:52

There is a learning curve and I found that my normal draw stroke speed got slower. So I went with a suppressor height front sight in a color that was different than my dot color. I then removed my rear sight. This allowed me to clearly see just my front sight on speed and then use the dot on follow up shots. My speed returned to normal (or improved) with this configuration. YMMV.

C4

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yoni

03-13-16, 08:34

I then removed my rear sight. This allowed me to clearly see just my front sight on speed and then use the dot on follow up shots. My speed returned to normal (or improved) with this configuration. YMMV.

C4

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This is exactly where my thinking has been heading towards. I think you are correct on this. It will allow greater speed up close and at distance if you should ever need distance other than the range use the dot and your good to go.

Dacam

03-13-16, 10:33

Ive had a very difficult time transitioning from irons to rds with my G19. After hundreds of draws and live fires, Im getting better.
The problem for me is seeing the front sight through the RMR glass as the RMR glass has a slight greenish tint to it.
The draw was slightly easier, speed reloads were giving me fits as I was loosing the dot in the window and hunting for it. It has gotten alot
better though.
As grant said, maybe I should replace the front black suppressor sight with a color dot tall sight for faster indexing.
All in all, I love my RMR'd G19. Its much more accurate and simpler to shoot.

MStarmer

03-13-16, 11:23

Thanks for all the replies guys, it is appreciated. At this point the RMR'd gun is an experiment as to see how it works for me. As I creep ever closer to 50yrs old my eyes seem to change from day to day so I wanted to give a dot a try. Picking up the front sight on my edc handguns has been greatly improved by Trijicon HD sights or Ameriglo Pro-Glo's. In fact it's funny last night I was looking at different options for front sights and saw the suppressor height Pro-Glo in yellow and thought that might be the answer. I think that will be the finishing touch on this gun is a yellow one to contrast and use when the dot is off or goes down for some reason.

Thanks again guys!
MStarmer

FromMyColdDeadHand

03-15-16, 01:09

Tzook

03-15-16, 08:33

Brother Gabe Suarez has the answers you seek http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/02/red-dots-on-pistols-you-dont-know-what-you-dont-know.html#.VuTeIcfLRBw and a free booklet http://www.warriortalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46817&d=1454426274

The guy is a dirt bag for sure, but he isn't wrong. I am finding that I agree with a lot of things Mr. Suarez has to say, regardless of his.... moral shortcomings.

MStarmer

03-15-16, 17:03

Distance, dark and age are the three reasons I went to the RMR and as you stated, started the hunt.

It is truly freaky how when you turn 40, your vision goes haywire, especially near and in the dark. Though my prescription hasn't changed much, the inability to focus quickly at near distances in the dark is, eye opening. I've been mostly shooting outside the past 8 or so years, so going to a dingy, dark indoor range made me realize how bad irons were for me.

The dot gives me the ability to aim in the low light- or even the full darkness. It gives me the ability to shoot longer distances with target focus. Both of those things really hit home with the local movie theater shootings.

I still used my STI Edge for 3-gun matches, but I haven't done those due to little kids about the same time as I went to the RMR.

Since you are in the same boat, how do you like the bigger dot? I have the smaller, amber one RMR? that is tritium/ambient powered.

Wow, exactly. "Haywire" is exactly how I feel. Some days my vision is fine and I don't even feel like I need my glasses, others I feel blind as a bat. Night vision sucks, never been great but one of my eyes takes considerably longer than the other. Even use reading glasses when working on small stuff now. I have another eye exam later in the month and will probably break down and get bifocals this time around as well.

As for the bigger dot, I have the RM06 so my dot size is only 3.25 moa. I don't think I would have wanted anything bigger, if I want it bigger I can turn it up and it takes center stage for sure. I'm getting marginally better, I've been trying to work with the gun daily for dry-fire and been to the range a few times trying to dial the zero into my preferred practice load. I'm close enough to keep them all in the black at 25yds while using my bag as support so once I know the gun is mechanically zeroed I can start blaming myself. I'll admit I'm a little spoiled with my P320c that I've been carrying for the last 8 months or so, the trigger and accuracy are spectacular. My G19's trigger, not so much. I know it'll break in but compared to some of my other Glocks this one isn't exactly the cream of the crop.

Tigereye

03-15-16, 23:32

Is it better to mill the slide for a RMR or get a Glock 19 MOS? I already have a Gen 4 G19, Gen 3 G19, and Gen 3 G17.

HardToHandle

03-15-16, 23:42

Is it better to mill the slide for a RMR or get a Glock 19 MOS? I already have a Gen 4 G19, Gen 3 G19, and Gen 3 G17.

I have heard negative reviews of the MOSes - wrong height, weaker RDS interface to allow modularity, etc. That said I have not purchased one, especially at the price point delta for milling to the MOS premium Glock charges - they are about the same.

A buddy and I were discussing the MOS last night... He has a generous Glock discount and the MOS additional cost works out to be basically retail for a stock G34. I felt that was a pretty fair deal based on how he would use a MOS.

My experience is limited to a non factory milled slide version with suppressor sights installed. As described in this thread, that seems to a viable solution. There are many variations and vendors offering that servic.

themonk

03-16-16, 05:41

I have heard negative reviews of the MOSes - wrong height, weaker RDS interface to allow modularity, etc. That said I have not purchased one, especially at the price point delta for milling to the MOS premium Glock charges - they are about the same.

A buddy and I were discussing the MOS last night... He has a generous Glock discount and the MOS additional cost works out to be basically retail for a stock G34. I felt that was a pretty fair deal based on how he would use a MOS.

My experience is limited to a non factory milled slide version with suppressor sights installed. As described in this thread, that seems to a viable solution. There are many variations and vendors offering that servic.

I 2nd HardToHandle. I have also heard negative things about the MOS. An ATEi milled slide is milled to your RMR and Doug leaves posts for the RMR to lock in on. This can be very helpful when you need to change batteries and re-zero.

TAZ

03-16-16, 13:37

Is it better to mill the slide for a RMR or get a Glock 19 MOS? I already have a Gen 4 G19, Gen 3 G19, and Gen 3 G17.

I'm on the list for 19MOS mainly due to my eyes sucking more and more and more each year. Getting older sux. Doesn't hurt that I like to tinker as well :)

I think the milled slide, be it an Atom or other custom fit unit, is more robust and aesthetically pleasing. You just can't reproduce a milled surface with recoil lugs with a piece of stamped sheet metal. With that stated I have yet to hear of any MOS or even CORE weapons seeing enough failures to justify calling the design questionble.

The biggest thing the MOS/CORE concept brings to the table is cost effectiveness. No my area an MOS adds roughly $75 to the retail price of the gun. NOBODY is going to beat that price for milling an RDS pocket into an existing slide. That low price point allows folks to get an RDS capable gun and try it out. If you REALLY like the concept and thing the MOS design needs improvement you can then invest more $$. That is my primary reason for going the MOS route. Had I been able to find a good used 19 I'd probably go the other way so long as the upfront costs are the same.

eodinert

03-16-16, 15:49

I set up a Glock 17 with an RMR, and while most everything has already been covered, here are my thoughts:

-The dot is on the same focal plane as the target. My eyes can't handle focusing on a front sight so much these days.
-Keep using the sights, transition to the dot when it drops into place... keep doing it, you'll get used to it.
-I shoot better with it, especially at longer ranges

It's great for gun games, but for regular carry, I have at least one issue. The optic acts as a 'catch all' for dust, dirt, crumbs, and whatever other stuff is floating around in my world. For daily carry, I would engineer/buy/make a holster that completely covered the back side of the RMR.

eodinert

03-16-16, 15:49

MStarmer

03-17-16, 17:28

Thanks again for all the tips and articles. I did agree with Grant on the visible front sight, most of my pistols now are set up with some sort of HD sight. Got the new one for the G19 in yesterday and got it on there, I think this will make a world of difference. I was loosing the black thin front post easily in the window of the RMR, this picks up clearly, still matches most of my other setups (other than in color) and gives a great option if the optic goes down. I'm not ready to move this into a carry rotation, it's more of a project for me and my eyesight. But for now it's a very "fun" project for me as I learn this system. Here's a crappy iPhone pic of the view, I didn't feel like breaking out the real camera for this.

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg68/mstarmer/RMRAmeriglo.jpg (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/mstarmer/media/RMRAmeriglo.jpg.html)

Dacam

03-18-16, 09:46

This is a exactly what I was thinking of doing! Im assuming the front is standard height? Im not too concerned about it not co-witnessing, I can point shoot if my optic goes
down.

MStarmer

03-18-16, 11:39

No it's the suppressor height (.315) to match the back. I don't think I'd be able to even see it if it was standard height. Haven't got it to the range but I hope to either today or tomorrow. I ordered direct from Ameriglo and was very impressed with their shipping times. I've ordered in the past and it's been kind of slow, I got this in just a few days.

http://ameriglo.com/collections/glock/products/glock-pro-glo-tritium-fronts?variant=7556140033

38413

LibertyNeverDies

03-18-16, 11:50

What ever happened to the Trijicon HD suppressor height glock sights? Are they still available because I can't find them anywhere.

MStarmer

03-18-16, 11:58

What ever happened to the Trijicon HD suppressor height glock sights? Are they still available because I can't find them anywhere.

In my searching all I found were the "Bright and Tough" versions for suppressor height. I use the Ameriglo (orange usually) on a lot of my guns and am very happy with the quality. I'm not a huge fan of the lumi-green but in this case with a red dot I think it's a better choice.

Tigereye

03-18-16, 16:57

I haven't been able to find a tall HD front sight either.

MStarmer

03-19-16, 11:10

I look at it like irons on my AR's it's just a B/U at this point. I think the Ameriglo is just as good as the HD's for this application. I have them on several guns and only once had an issue and Rick had a replacement sent right out.

PriseDeFer

03-21-16, 09:44

MStarmer

03-21-16, 10:26

So the optics in question are better for longer ranges than for up close and personal and take additional blocks of instruction and or training. Good for the firearm hobbyist, the manufactures and the trainers. Those folks who look at being armed as not a hobby can just go on with the irons. Good, money saved, or maybe another gun instead.

Yes and no, obviously the platform shines at distance but has benefits for shooters with vision issues as well. I know over the few days after installing the new Ameriglo front sight I starting working just like any of my HD guns and the dot is starting to fall into place a lot more. Learning curve, definitely. Nothing wrong with iron sights, been getting the job done for a long time. It's just great that we all options that are available, black / fiber optic / tritium / HD / RMR...

MegademiC

03-21-16, 13:35

So the optics in question are better for longer ranges than for up close and personal and take additional blocks of instruction and or training. Good for the firearm hobbyist, the manufactures and the trainers. Those folks who look at being armed as not a hobby can just go on with the irons. Good, money saved, or maybe another gun instead.

As someone who doesn't have rds on pistol experience yet, I will say most changes will take training to realize potential. If you want to be proficient quick, irons may be better, but look at open division in uspsa. How many top shooters are not using rds? Not many (none?). That tells me they are better across the board once you get proficient. Determining if the time that takes is worth it is up to the individual shooter. I'd rather have more capability in a gun than add a fun gun to the collection, ymmv.

Defaultmp3

03-21-16, 14:04

As someone who doesn't have rds on pistol experience yet, I will say most changes will take training to realize potential. If you want to be proficient quick, irons may be better, but look at open division in uspsa. How many top shooters are not using rds? Not many (none?). That tells me they are better across the board once you get proficient. Determining if the time that takes is worth it is up to the individual shooter. I'd rather have more capability in a gun than add a fun gun to the collection, ymmv.USPSA open guns aren't quite analogous with conceal carry optics, hence why there is now a separate CCO division in USPSA, rather than forcing CCO shooters into open. The main advantage is that the open guns don't have reciprocating red dots, as they are instead frame mounted, and generally have larger FOVs; the lack of reciprocation makes the tracking of the dot between shots far easier, especially when complemented with a comp.

Captiva

03-21-16, 14:06

... Good for the firearm hobbyist, the manufactures and the trainers. Those folks who look at being armed as not a hobby can just go on with the irons. Good, money saved, or maybe another gun instead.

With that viewpoint one can make a case for no sights. Is "front sight, press" really needed for those folks who look at being armed not as a hobby? Evidence shows otherwise. If you can make the case that a red dot sight on a pistol is superfluous to seriously armed combatants then I would argue so is any sight. Applegate is still relevant at breath distances.

eodinert

03-21-16, 14:47

So the optics in question are better for longer ranges than for up close and personal and take additional blocks of instruction and or training.

If by 'additional blocks of instruction and or training' you mean 'practice', then yes. You have to practice, and then it becomes natural, fast and accurate.

horseman234

03-22-16, 09:58

Has anyone here tried the RMR08 with the triangle? I haven't had any experience with red dots on pistols, but it would seem that at close distances, the triangle would come into focus quickly.

C4IGrant

03-22-16, 10:01

Has anyone here tried the RMR08 with the triangle? I haven't had any experience with red dots on pistols, but it would seem that at close distances, the triangle would come into focus quickly.

That is what I run.

C4

horseman234

03-22-16, 10:30

Thanks Grant!

Defaultmp3

03-22-16, 11:18

This one reason that the Deltapoint Pro with the 7.5 MOA triangle is intriguing to me. The possibility of using the tip for precision, and the full reticle for speed.
It won't work as you wish it to.

The triangle is the absolute worst diode shape you could imagine. I was talked into one by the smith who built my first MRDS M&P four years ago. It is awful.

RDS align by referencing themselves in the same plane. You align the "dot" or triangle in the center of the viewing/projection window. A rhomboid window combined with a triangle cannot be consistently aligned the same every time. A circle or a "dot" can much more consistently be aligned, repeatedly. A round widow combined with a round dot would be the most repeatable, and was/is on an aimpoint or a C-more. They are as accurate as a bead and aperture sight.

My needs REQUIRE a sighting system that allows me to use my pistol to 50 yards. That stupid triangle is a total fail. Yep, if all you care about is blasting at 7 yards, be my guest. At one class we let a half dozen good students try the triangle diode Deltapoint at 25 and 50 yards, and it was immediately hated by all.

Also, you can't switch between using the body of the triangle to the tip of the triangle without changing zero. It's no different than raising or lowering the front sight in the rear sight picture, the effects are the same.

I find a 6 moa dot about the largest I like on a pistol, and I'll take the smallest I can get. My next build will be with the small dot RMR.

Don't ask me about the new Deltapoints. I turned my back on them after my first experience. I'm sticking with RMRs. I have several.
Source: http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/dot-size-for-rds-pistol?reply=28890597836905951#28890597836905951

TAZ

03-22-16, 14:38

That is what I run.

C4

Grant, any issues or concerns with the washout of the green RMR? I tried an amber triangle and dot and they both washed out very badly when shooting from dark to light. Shade to full sun or dark room to flashlight lit room made the reticle go bye bye. I'm in the list for a g19 MOS and love the idea of no batteries for a decade or so.

C4IGrant

03-22-16, 15:00

Grant, any issues or concerns with the washout of the green RMR? I tried an amber triangle and dot and they both washed out very badly when shooting from dark to light. Shade to full sun or dark room to flashlight lit room made the reticle go bye bye. I'm in the list for a g19 MOS and love the idea of no batteries for a decade or so.

Yes. In low light with a weapon mounted light, you will wash it out. This is why I run the crimson trace laser grips. This covers me in that area and is faster than a RDS in low light situations IMHO.

C4

MStarmer

03-23-16, 18:27

Just a quick trip to the range to get the dot closer to zero for my training load. I honestly think I'm maybe one click away from the closest zero I've ever been able to get on a pistol. Wasn't able to shoot off a rest at this range so it's just me slumped over my range bag trying to steady myself the best I can and let em' fly. I wasn't trying to shoot for ultimate groups just trying to get the dot as close as I can while I'm breaking the gun in a little bit. I think I'm at about 350 rounds or so. I'm trying to work with the pistol daily just for dot reference and it's starting to drop in a lot more frequent, the lumiglo front sight helps as it's a great reference that my training always has me looking for anyway.

All shots at 25yds, 147gr JHP X-Treme over 3.3gr Titegroup OAL 1.125(ish). Feel like I'm getting there!

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg68/mstarmer/IMG_0430.jpg (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/mstarmer/media/IMG_0430.jpg.html)

bear13

03-23-16, 18:47

Nice groupings at that distance.

Bolt_Overide

04-05-16, 23:53

I've tried the pistol red dot thing twice now, once on a glock and once on an M&P. IMO it's great once it's out and you've found the dot, especially at further distances. It's just far too slow out of the holster, spend too much time chasing the dot. I will stick with trijicon HD's.

Captiva

04-06-16, 17:47

... it's great once it's out and you've found the dot, especially at further distances. It's just far too slow out of the holster, spend too much time chasing the dot...

Perhaps this can help:

I want to remind everyone that at the intervals where one would normally be focused on the threat and not looking at, or for, the sights nothing has changed. We are not suggesting that you will now be looking for a red dot at 3 yards or anything of the sort. Rather you operate as usual, physically indexing the pistol on threat and firing the necessary shots, looking only for the visual input needed to make it work.

Sometimes that input may be minimal and you will simply be using the hand-eye coordination to get the hits. At other times, with iron sights, you are noticing various “indexes”, commonly called “meat and metal”.

Again, nothing has changed. In the case of the red dot sights, you are still using the silhouette of the pistol when needed without seeking the dot, and you are still looking through the tube that is “filled with target”, without seeking the dot for those fast and dynamic close range shots.

It is when the distance interval increases or when you need that precise shot that we see a difference. Traditionally, shooters have been taught to look hard at the front edge (specifically the very top edge), but that, although it can be learned, is counter intuitive. When using the RDS (Red Dot System), you look to the center of the target and notice the dot as it reaches that spot. You look precisely where you want the bullet to go, and not at the dot itself. Of course you notice it, but never look specifically "at it" as you would with a front sight unless the need exists for extreme precision.

Gabe Suarez