Marines ditch iron sights, Kyle Lamb comments

[FlyingHunter]

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2016/03/08/marines-ditch-iron-sights-consider-new-marksmanship-training-tables/81494556/

he Marine Corps will phase out the legacy iron sights, carrying handle and three-point sling for the M16 rifle.

“It’s sad to see the iron sights go. The Marine Corps takes marksmanship seriously." says Kyle Lamb
While the iron sights and handles will still be authorized, the Marine Corps will gradually deplete its existing stocks through attrition.

The legacy iron sights will be replaced with micro backup iron sights, which are modular attachments that can be affixed to a rifle’s rail mount and flipped up for use.

But the Corps will still need to train Marines to use iron sights in fundamental marksmanship should the rifle combat optic’s red dot go dead, said Kyle Lamb, a weapons consultant through his company Viking Tactics who retired from the Army’s Delta Force.

“It’s sad to see the iron sights go,” he said. “The Marine Corps takes marksmanship seriously. If you need [the micro iron sights], you need them; just flip them up and you’re good to go.”

[Rotorhead84]

Misleading title at best. Clickbait for Marines.


They're ditching carrying handles and 3 point slings. Not irons.

[FlyingHunter]

Misleading title at best. Clickbait for Marines.


They're ditching carrying handles and 3 point slings. Not irons.


Kyle Lamb, a weapons consultant through his company Viking Tactics who retired from the Army’s Delta Force.

“It’s sad to see the iron sights go,” he said. “The Marine Corps takes marksmanship seriously. If you need [the micro iron sights], you need them; just flip them up and you’re good to go.”

[dusterdude]

Fh,i hope you're correct.although i like the handle too

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

[Primus Pilum]

Kyle Lamb, a weapons consultant through his company Viking Tactics who retired from the Army’s Delta Force.

“It’s sad to see the iron sights go,” he said. “The Marine Corps takes marksmanship seriously. If you need [the micro iron sights], you need them; just flip them up and you’re good to go.”

Which if you read is contradictory to what the article says. They aren't going away, they are being replaced with BUIS. Smart move, shave some OZ off a rifleman's load is never a bad idea.

[Chrisollis]

Definitely misleading. Nothing wrong with issued a primary optic, thats a step in the right direction. If they issue a quality set of BUIS's and teach fundamentals on irons still, I see nothing wrong with it.

[bad aim]

Didn't KAC make some backup rears for the USMC? Looks like it's getting expanded throughout the entire corps. Are they switching both front/rears, or keeping the FSB and getting rid of the carry handle? Though, it would be cool to see some KAC micro fronts...

[Ernst]

So....the post is telling me that the USMC is getting rid of iron sights, but they are not.

OK. Thanks.

[pointblank4445]

With all due respect to Mr. Lamb, I'm getting awfully tired of reading/hearing the term "marksmanship" being thrown around in this matter. Even IF they did completely away with irons as a whole (which they aren't), "marksmanship" is not a concept to exclusive to iron sights. Getting one's head in the right place behind the aiming device, orienting the weapon, focusing on the front sight/dot/crosshair/horse shoe, and a fundamentally sound trigger press isn't going anywhere.

Make sure guys can hit a torso at 200 with their BUIS so they can save their own skins if their primary/daytime goes down, and let's spend the rest of the time on the modern, primary aiming devices.

[Nightstalker865]

I talked to a buddy who's son just recently graduated from Paris Island. He said that they used ACOG's all the way through and didn't touch the irons. That's a big change, but I can understand the thinking. I'm sure they will get some time on the irons to gain proficiency during infantry school.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ernst]

How do they deal with CQB situations with an ACOG?

[opngrnd]

I certainly willing to be corrected, but I believe they began implementing this a several years ago. You go through training with an optic, and then learn the irons at a later date.

[556BlackRifle]

I talked to a buddy who's son just recently graduated from Paris Island. He said that they used ACOG's all the way through and didn't touch the irons. That's a big change, but I can understand the thinking. I'm sure they will get some time on the irons to gain proficiency during infantry school.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can confirm this. My son graduated last summer and did not use irons until combat training. MCT. I'm 99% sure they weren't using carry handles. (Will check on that.)

[Steve-0-]

How do they deal with CQB situations with an ACOG?

Ive had a TA01-NSN on a carbine for a few years now. After doing drills up close with 2 eyes open its not hard to deal with the 4x mag and my eyes don't really notice it. Im sure they will have Marines train the same way.

A KRAM spacer really helps with this as well.

[Primus Pilum]

How do they deal with CQB situations with an ACOG?

Same as they have for the last 15 years.

[Ernst]

Since the ACOG is a 3x or 4x scope, how do the use it in CQB situations? I find it very distracting to try to use my 3x magnifier with my red dot at closer distances such as 10, 15 yards.

[MountainRaven]

Since the ACOG is a 3x or 4x scope, how do the use it in CQB situations? I find it very distracting to try to use my 3x magnifier with my red dot at closer distances such as 10, 15 yards.

If it's illuminated by a fiber optic, you simply cover the objective lens of the optic.

It's not as accurate as a reflex sight and since your eyes point in slightly different directions, you will experience some point of impact shift relative to your point of aim, but at such close distances, the differences are generally pretty marginal.

[Eurodriver]

If it's illuminated by a fiber optic, you simply cover the objective lens of the optic.


My unit never did this.

[Primus Pilum]

If it's illuminated by a fiber optic, you simply cover the objective lens of the optic.

It's not as accurate as a reflex sight and since your eyes point in slightly different directions, you will experience some point of impact shift relative to your point of aim, but at such close distances, the differences are generally pretty marginal.

You don't cover anything. You just shoot with both eyes open, the reticle overlays your non dominate eye's picture. The TA11 and TA33 are probably the best magnified optics that are usable at CQB out there. The horseshoe shows up like a little eotech reticle.

Generally you are point shooting at that distance anyway. It's not rainbow six.

[Firefly]

I'm kinda confused.

While the Carry Handle looks more "honest" and traditional....a sight is a sight. If you could hit a man sized target at 500m (which IIRC is the USMC standard. Not a Marine so not sure), does it really matter if it has the carry handle or not? I mean as long as it adjusts for wind and elevation. Not seeing the issue.

From what everyone says (or at least the internet) everybody is adopting some kind of carbine. Like, didn't they say they wanted the HK rifle to start replacing Mk. 12s and so on? I saw that at HKPro so that could be a bit biased (not a dig against HKP at all).

I like traditional looking rifles but wouldn't life be easier with 16" carbines vs A2/A4 rifles? Especially getting in and out of vehicles.

As variable power optics get more robust, even the ACOG seems a bit old hat.

I thought the point of marksmanship was hitting what you shoot at consistently and accurately. If you have that proficiency, does it really matter what the gun looks like?

Not trying to be a smart alec but I don't see the problem.

[malstew123]

Back up irons still issued along with the RCO (ACOG) and fixed front sight post (unless using an IAR in which case folding front and rear are issued along with an ACOG)

the RCO works at close quarters distances, not as great as a red dot, but still viable, and Marines shoot tables to practice these distances.

I am a fan of irons and have my personal defense rifle set up with them and an aim point, but the implementation of the RCO is a benefit not a hindrance. You still have to have the same fundamentals to shoot well.

[Ernst]

The Marines are always the last service branch to come around to better weapons and better ways of doing things.

The pining over the past forms of the AR15 platform is just nonsensical romanticizing over a form of the AR that has been superseded by better options and better sight systems.

[Eurodriver]

The Marines are always the last service branch to come around to better weapons and better ways of doing things.

Is that so?

[Nightstalker865]

How do they deal with CQB situations with an ACOG?

Looks like your question has been answered already, but I'll chime in and agree with what has already been said. ACOG's work just fine at CQB distances as long as your shooting with both eyes open.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[26 Inf]

The Marines are always the last service branch to come around to better weapons and better ways of doing things.

Yep, we had to be led, kicking and screaming, to the way more better gender integration.

[SeriousStudent]

The Marines are always the last service branch to come around to better weapons and better ways of doing things.

The pining over the past forms of the AR15 platform is just nonsensical romanticizing over a form of the AR that has been superseded by better options and better sight systems.

I'm your Huckleberry. Care to actually provide some factual proof of that, or is this just some inter-service bitching?

Because about 90 years ago, the Marines were doing silly stuff like inventing close air support, aeromedical evacuation, etc.

[Psybain]

I can confirm this. My son graduated last summer and did not use irons until combat training. MCT. I'm 99% sure they weren't using carry handles. (Will check on that.)
They quit using irons in boot camp years ago. At least 2011 or 2012, if memory serves. Hell, the last time I used irons for qual was 2008, and the last time I heard of a unit requiring their Marines to use irons was in 2011 or possibly 2012. I don't miss them at all, though the magnification always messes with me for table 2.

[Primus Pilum]

The Marines are always the last service branch to come around to better weapons and better ways of doing things.

The pining over the past forms of the AR15 platform is just nonsensical romanticizing over a form of the AR that has been superseded by better options and better sight systems.

Not in the last 15 years. Marines on an individual level are issued way better gear. Now infantry vs infantry is debatable but across the service, the Marines had better armor, better rifles, better optics, better ammo, ect (and way better officers to lead them). They have been WELL funded and the days of using old army throwaways is long gone. Your average POG Army unit was typical issued A2 with iron sights and a gooseneck M68 if they were lucky. POG Marines typically had A4's with ACOG's or M4's with ACOG's.

[SethB]

Not in the last 15 years. Marines on an individual level are issued way better gear. Now infantry vs infantry is debatable but across the service, the Marines had better armor, better rifles, better optics, better ammo, ect (and way better officers to lead them). They have been WELL funded and the days of using old army throwaways is long gone. Your average POG Army unit was typical issued A2 with iron sights and a gooseneck M68 if they were lucky. POG Marines typically had A4's with ACOG's or M4's with ACOG's.

No shit. Seven years in the Army and the only time I've had anything other than an M16A2 was during the two week FTX in OCS.

[Surf]

I have trained Marines for quite some time. Pretty much guys who are hand select and squared away. Optics are the standard now not iron sights. With 110% confirmation I will say that the quality of marksmanship has declined. If you have worked with Marines for any length of time, the difference is that obvious. This is not a dig at the individual Marine as the quality of the individual has not declined, just the quality of the basic marksmanship training that they now receive.

[Lopro619]

I thought Mike was a force recon marine. Not delta

[Primus Pilum]

Mike who?

[TexasAggie2005]

Mike who?


https://youtu.be/rxMYHFGSwmI

[C-grunt]

The Marines are always the last service branch to come around to better weapons and better ways of doing things.

I don't know about that. My brother in law and I were in at the same time. I was Army 11B and he was Marine 0351. In 05 my unit still had mostly M16A4s with Aimpoints and only Platoon Sgts, Officers, and a few Squad Leaders had M4s. The other SDM and I were the only guys with ACOGs. My brother in law had a M4 as a Private in 06 and everyone in his platoon had ACOGs. Not to mention his body armor/equipment setup was at least on the same level as mine.

That being said we were a Mechanized unit so most of our budget went to Bradley maintenance and other units we came across, 101st and 82nd, were better equipped at the individual level.

[C-grunt]

I thought Mike was a force recon marine. Not delta

Kyle Lamb not Mike Lamb

[Kdubya]

Might be a good time to purchase some stock in KAC...

[Ernst]

Not in the last 15 years. Marines on an individual level are issued way better gear. Now infantry vs infantry is debatable but across the service, the Marines had better armor, better rifles, better optics, better ammo, ect (and way better officers to lead them). They have been WELL funded and the days of using old army throwaways is long gone. Your average POG Army unit was typical issued A2 with iron sights and a gooseneck M68 if they were lucky. POG Marines typically had A4's with ACOG's or M4's with ACOG's.

Great to hear it!

[rapomstage3]

I've definetly never bought three or four of those surplus kac usmc sights for really cheap but... That seems like a great move.

[Failure2Stop]

Old news, clickbait bulls**t.

[Eurodriver]

I have trained Marines for quite some time. Pretty much guys who are hand select and squared away. Optics are the standard now not iron sights. With 110% confirmation I will say that the quality of marksmanship has declined. If you have worked with Marines for any length of time, the difference is that obvious. This is not a dig at the individual Marine as the quality of the individual has not declined, just the quality of the basic marksmanship training that they now receive.

Do you have a timeline of when this started at KBay?? I want to know if I'm included in this decline in marksmanship quality?

[Ernst]

"I have trained Marines for quite some time. Pretty much guys who are hand select and squared away. Optics are the standard now not iron sights. With 110% confirmation I will say that the quality of marksmanship has declined. If you have worked with Marines for any length of time, the difference is that obvious. This is not a dig at the individual Marine as the quality of the individual has not declined, just the quality of the basic marksmanship training that they now receive."

What specifically do you think is the reason? Aren't the fundamentals required to be accurate with an optic as it is with iron sights? Would appreciate hearing more.

[26 Inf]

"I have trained Marines for quite some time. Pretty much guys who are hand select and squared away. Optics are the standard now not iron sights. With 110% confirmation I will say that the quality of marksmanship has declined. If you have worked with Marines for any length of time, the difference is that obvious. This is not a dig at the individual Marine as the quality of the individual has not declined, just the quality of the basic marksmanship training that they now receive."

What specifically do you think is the reason? Aren't the fundamentals required to be accurate with an optic as it is with iron sights? Would appreciate hearing more.

Well, first of all, most folks are going to be more accurate with an optic, regardless of magnification. When optical sights were first allowed in bullseye pistol I resisted, when I put my first aimpoint on, scores went up 7 to 9 points.

IDK how it is today, but when I was in the Marine Corps (M-14, then M16) we were taught 4 positions - offhand, kneeling, sitting, prone and shot at 500 (think 600 in Boot, not sure) 300, 200. Unlike the Army during that time frame the Marines taught us to use the sling as a 'cuff' as well as a hasty sling.

The emphasis today, as I'm sure someone with more recent service will explain, is more on combat marksmanship rather than precision.

[malstew123]

We still fire the old course of 200 sit, kneel, stand, 300 sitting and rapid, and 500 prone. No longer use the sling as a cuff (parade sling no longer authorized) and at least on the East coast, Vickers Sling or a 3 point are only authorized slings.